We may have had this discussion before, I don’t remember. But Marie Holmes, a mother of 4 children (one of which has cerebral palsy) has won the lottery. Her share is $188 million dollars. You can read the full story here, and there is interesting video.
I don’t play the lottery and am not a supporter of the it.
Marie seems like a solid, grounded woman. I hope she follows through on her plans to set up college funds for her children and make other wise choices. Frankly, many people who win the lottery make foolish choices and cause themselves more pain than the money could ever alleviate.
But Marie says the first thing she plans to do is tithe on her windfall. That would appear to be $18 million, though in reality it probably won’t be that much. If she, like most people, takes a one time payout her $188 million will be around $127 million. What are taxes on that amount? Who knows? But I’m guessing she is looking at pocketing no more than a measly, paltry 80 million or so. Maybe less.
But there is a church somewhere that is looking at a significant check in the offering plate. If she gave 1% of 80 million bucks to my church, it would nearly double our annual budget!
If Marie were a member of your church, what would you do?
Full disclosure here, I stole this idea off Bart Barber’s Facebook, where a lively discussion has taken place. There have been several thoughts.
1) Turn the money down. God’s church need not prosper from something like the lottery.
2) Take the money. Satan’s had it long enough.
3) Take it if she gives it secretly – a sort of financial “don’t ask, don’t tell.”
4) My suggestion was the best, I’m convinced. I would set up the Dave Miller Evangelistic Association and solicit the donation there!
What would you do in an event such as this? Would your church take the money?
4) Yes
I made a mistake with my comment. I would not give one red cent to the Dave Miller Evangelistic Association. I meant to say, yes, we would take the money.
Nerd.
And I had this discussion with some of your members back in the 80s. I realize that church has changed and several of those I chatted with are now in glory, but there were quite a few who would have rejected that offering.
And you are still a nerd for not making a donation to the DMEA.
In that case we would go with option number 3. Don’t ask, don’t tell. I am sure no one would notice. 😉
Then DBBC offerings are WAY up!
Yes, I would accept the money. What’s the difference between a person winning the lottery and tithing compared to the car salesman that lies to make a sale and tithes?
I do not support the lottery but I don’t support some other jobs that people make money from and tithe either.
I am not saying some car sales men are deserving of what is said about them, however I would not lump all into the same…car…
Tom, just for the record: I was an award-winning, top-producing car salesman (both new and used) and I never lied to anybody to get a sale. I was also planting a church at the time with no outside support. One of the other sales people once asked: “Do you preach like you sell cars.” I’m not really sure what he meant by that question but my answer was: “No, I sell cars like I preach. I believe in what I am doing; I am fulfilling a person’s need; and I do it with Holy Spirit enthusiasm.” And . . .… Read more »
I think you have missed my point. Substitute car salesman with any job that you would like that someone chooses to be dishonest and then tithes.
Sorry if I offended you.
Do your current church members parse out those amounts from their weekly gas station lotteries? 🙂
I think that gets back to the don’t ask, don’t tell thing.
🙂
Okay, here’s my stand, though I’ve not worked through it with my church, so I don’t know what their stand would be. Gambling is a foolish activity, but it is not in direct violation of specific scripture. If the local house of prostitution wanted to make a donation, or the local Al Capone-type, or a bank robber, or Planned Parenthood (not likely, of course), I would recommend rejecting the offering. Gambling is foolish and dangerous, but it is not blatant sin such as those activities (I probably just got de-friended by about 200 Baptists on Facebook!) So, I would not… Read more »
Dave,
Just a question here, not speculating on your extra curricular activities or anything but…….how do you know there is a local house of prostitution? 😉
Banned!!
I would accept the money on one condition: We don’t keep a dime but forward it all on to various missions causes.
Main reason: Churches get torn up, argumentative, and split when somebody leaves a fraction of that in a will or something… I’d hate to think of what a sudden appearance of millions would do to a business meeting… :-\
I’ve seen it. Churches that have a large “nest egg” are often destroyed by it. Not sure why, but I’ve seen it in effect.
I think it would be hypocritical of a church to preach against something and then knowingly profit from it. I’ve turned this question over in my mind many times, wondering what would happen if someone gave me a winning ticket. I’ve had to conclude that I’d be hard pressed to teach against lotteries and gambling, and then take the money.
I wouldn’t accept it. I’d have trouble telling God I depended on Him, but……..
Bob, I think I agree with you. I also think that if someone were to actually offer our church $18 million, I might not be as principled as I am in theory.
I go back and forth on this issue in my own mind. The Bible does not say anything (that I can think of) about “tithes” from gains gotten through gambling.
But, as David says below (or above) large sums of money seldom solve church issues–more often they create them.
I think, if it were entirely up to me, I’d ask not to receive the money directly into the church, although I’d be willing to facilitate some sort of a pass-through. 1. It is not about rejecting or shaming the person who won the lottery and is giving the tithe. The evil in the lottery is not symmetrical. The greater evil does not lie with the poor, misguided person who buys the tickets; the greater evil lies with the state which deliberately chooses to profit off of the poor with the horrifically regressive tax that is the lottery. If we… Read more »
I agree with Bart’s point. The evil of the lottery is that it takes money from people who can’t afford to lose it by offering them the pipe dream. “Regressive Tax” is mild.
And the idea of a church living off lottery proceeds is unseemly.
I like the idea of receiving such money (though I think with a windfall, 10% is WAY too little!) community projects, missions projects, etc – pass through projects that spread the gospel and benefit the community are best.
Me too. Some of the lottery proceeds are most assuredly milk money that some kid didn’t get that morning.
Not for me. Refusing the money is a pre-made decision. And easier, I suppose, than objecting to your boss’ taking the Lord’s name in vain.
What if you didn’t know it was Lottery money until after it had already been used in the church? Stage a bonfire or something?
I like a good bonfire. We built a big one for Christmas once at a church where I was serving.
But no, Debbie, I’m not calling for anything silly or over-reactionary. Frankly, because of the potential for division, I’d tend to treat ANY very large lump-sum donation to the church as a reason to look for pass-through opportunities or otherwise to get that money out of the church’s coffers and into ministry action.
I would Tithe, then I would head straight to the Tabernacle to sacrifice my bull and goat. Dang it!! I cant do anything until sundown, its Sabbath. But let me tell you once sundowb hits, I’m headed right to the storehouse, because I dont want to be accused of Robbing God by the preacher at my local Baptist synagogue.
Shalom
Like others, I think I would try to find a way to not let the money come into the church. I don’t think playing the lottery is inherently sinful, just frankly silly and unwise. Like Bart, I would not want our community to think we were living off lottery winnings. Two, a sum of millions or even hundreds of thousands at our little country church would probably do much more harm than good. How would we spend it? How would the person giving it remain anonymous? How would the person giving the money not wield undue influence in the church… Read more »
I’ve never had this specific situation occur, but one church in our association had it happen years ago. They seem to have survived the experience, but they have a dedicated, long-tenured pastor who leads them well, so I’m sure he’s watched the use of the gift very closely. I think any large sum given to a church must be given: a) With no strings attached–Once the money is given, the giver has no control over what the money is used for unless the terms of the gift are spelled out prior to the giving of the gift. Then the church… Read more »
If any of yall have someone in your Churches that wants to give a large gift, and you’re looking for a place that it could be given to, then please steer them towards our Church. We’re in the middle of building a $3.5 million dollar building, and we could use the gift. Just send the check, and don’t tell us where it came from, or how you made the money.
🙂
David
Take it and be thankful. As mentioned above their is no specific scriptural reference in regards to playing the lottery, even though many obviously do unwisely. Do we refuse tithes from people who may own or work at a store that sells beer or cigarettes, or drives a beer truck? What about from someone who gambles on football or on the golf course? How about from the person in so much debt they can barely pay their bills? Christian liberty seems to apply. Should we become “stewardship” police? Besides, if the woman is tithing on this amount, chances are she… Read more »
Jeff,
Did you notice that some of the objections—mine in particular—are not at all about finding fault with the person who played the lottery?
The closest thing to what I believe would be number 2. However, I don’t believe in anything like good money or bad money, money is amoral. Where you got it is not nearly as important as what you do with it, with the exception of money from a bank robbery or something akin to that. While I am against the lottery as anyone else, when this money was transferred to this lady it was no longer “lottery” money, it was simply her money. I mean if you would accept a tithe from her, you shouldn’t take any from a used… Read more »
I would imagine that there’s been some money given to churches, many times, that wasn’t necessarily earned in a good way.
But, saying that….I guess if the person, who won the lottery, was making a big deal out of giving to the Church, instead of just putting her check in the offering plate, then that might make a big difference in taking the gift.
David
I agree David. But, I would still accept the gift regardless if she made a big production or not. There are a lot of missionaries we could support, benevolence we could help people with, and youth and other ministry programs we could finance with a gift like that.
Or a divorce attorney or a criminal defense attorney that routinely defends drug dealers etc ad nauseum.
Yep, what about the person who takes their chances in the stock market and strikes it rich?
Had a discussion not too long ago with the person in our church regarding this and they were very much against the lottery but the same person is known for winnings that they have made in the stock market.
This person insisted that the stock market is not gambling but when it came down to the definition that they used as to what made the lottery Gambling also fit for the stock market.
Tarheel, I would be interested how this was defined — both in regards to the lottery and the stock market. I don’t “play” the stock market, and must confess that I don’t really understand it. But it does seem that somewhere at the foundation of this is a business that provides goods and/or services. On the other hand, gambling isn’t based on providing goods and services. Gambling is founded on getting money from a lot of people without providing anything — other than the possibility of someone also getting a portion of the money from all the people who are… Read more »
Or if the church takes an hard line abstention stand on alcohol – do they then reject the tithes of those who “benefit” from the sale of it such as – bartenders or waitresses or airline stewardesses or people who own restaurants that sell alcohol or people who work in grocery stores or people who drive trucks for beer companies or…
I’m with Bob, “it would be hypocritical of a church to preach against something and then knowingly profit from it.” We would not receive it. But it is not a likely quandary. A person who plays the lottery would already know we stand against it and probably wouldn’t be offering the money to us — or even attending our church. Not that it is something we make a big deal about, but anyone who attends here very long would know where we stand. Regardless of the source of the money, a one-time offering of several million dollars would probably be… Read more »
I offer a mea culpa regarding my answer Saturday. I answered not as a pastor who would decide what the church would do, but as one who thought he knew what the church would do. Before class yesterday I brought up this incident and Bart’s question. I discovered that I had not read the church’s pulse as well as I had assumed. Though consistently opposed to gambling, that consistency did not transfer into a consistent answer about what to do with such money if given to the church. Actually more seemed to think it would be alright to take the… Read more »
🙂
That happens more than we expect!
Yes, and it can creep right up on you! I have known many of these people for 30+ years and pastored some of them about 14 years (on two separate occasions). You never know what you don’t know.
All that said, if this were to come up for an actual decision some who thought in would probably be all right still might not vote for it.
What about those churches in Vegas, Reno, or Tahoe who have members who work in the casinos? Should they reject their tithes and offerings?
I guess “tithe contextualization” comes into to play there Dale?
😉
I’d be willing to bet (not really, just figuratively) that none of us wants to get too involved in controlling what people do for a living, but it’s interesting where we draw our lines.
The Tennessee Baptist Convention did a beautiful glossy publication on the lottery when the state decided to introduce a lottery here.
It opposed it in all forms but the bill passed.
I know that at Two Rivers Baptist they made a decision never to accept such ill gotten gains….ever.
You know, folks, there are churches out there that practice church discipline. If we had a member who was a divorce attorney, I hope that wouldn’t go unnoticed, whether he was tithing or giving nothing at all.
I would meet with our financial ministries team and trustees to assure we were prayerfully in unity concerning the potential of this income. I might take the opportunity to teach her about Grace Giving as well as Tithing. Before making any decision, I would ask her and her family to meet with a trusted lawyer/counselor to be made aware of just how very destructive this money could be and how best to move forward in wisdom. I hope I could convince her to meet with one of our church members who is a financial specialist, and one who loves the… Read more »
Glenn,
I think that’s an excellent approach!
Let me throw a wrinkle in on this discussion. Suppose you have someone win the lottery. They place that money in even a simple savings account, and then live off of the interest. That interest is what they pay a tithe off of. So for example, someone (after taxes) wins 100 million dollars and puts that in a savings account that nets 1%. That means each year they make 1 million in interest to live off of. Of that, since they don’t need 1 mil to live off of, they give 50% or 500k a year. Technically, they are not… Read more »
Interesting comments above. A smaller church that I am familiar with received 400 acres due to someone’s estate. They stimulated that the church keep the property and use the income off the farm land to support the work of the church. Church members eventually stopped giving to the church and were therefore deprived from the blessings that come from faithful giving. The church died off and the land went back to surviving family members. Windfalls can have untoward consequences. I would hope that the money would be used responsibly for ministry of the church in reaching out to the community… Read more »
I’ve heard other stories like that.
I “packaged out” of my career. The tithe on that was not like a lottery, but it was enough to mess up the income of my church and possibly lead to bad planning for the next year’s budget. There was a Community Foundation that would take the money (as a lump sum) and then pass it out as I instructed. We spread the money out over several years and it went very smoothly. It compensated for my lack of income (and tithe) during those years to a large extent. This is a possibility for “smaller windfalls.” The community gets the… Read more »
You don’t want the church to have the problems the one (above) that received the land had. But I’d probably tell Glenn Harrell to go away. 🙂
First, it’s not about the money. That said, look at the spiritual climate: a) A woman was willing to play the lottery. That’s unwise if not sinful. That doesn’t discount the gift. I would counsel people not to play the lottery prior to anyone winning. So she’s either repentant or not. Her heart is probably in the right place with tithing the money, but it might be. That takes discernment. b) Many people in the congregation may have sin money as a stumbling block. Need to discern that too. c) Money has been the light that has uncovered many a… Read more »
Why is playing the lottery inherently unwise? I understand opposing the system of the lottery, since it is essentially an oppressive, regressive tax. And I understand that placing our hope in money and not God will definitely disappoint us, but is spending 6 dollars a month on tickets necessarily a problem? This is way less than I spend on fast food, and many other pointless items. There is a certain amount of suspense/anticipation involved that I feel is worth spending a few bucks on, even if you are never expecting to win anything. I think that this is true for… Read more »
Nathan, the answer seems simple enough to me: “Gambling is predicated on hurting people.” Millions get hurt so one can get millions.
There is a basic inequity underlying gambling. That seems to me to be reason enough to stay away.
Keep in mind that it is not just that some may lose that makes gambling inherently hurtful. It is the fact that “many MUST lose” that makes it hurtful.
PS–If it is an adrenalin rush you seek, I’d suggest trying some open air preaching at the mall or some street witnessing in the hard places of a big city.
Now . . . that’s excitement!
Recently, I had a very unusual encounter sharing the with people going in and out of a local grocery store. Actually, I had several. It was both intimidating and invigorating at the same time.
Just a suggestion.
At the mall here, open air preaching will get you an invitation to leave.
Dave, that is sort of my “tongue in cheek” point. If it is excitement one seeks, there are other ways to achieve that than the lottery.
I am not advocating breaking the law. Our mall has the same rules. However, there is no such rule in regard to places of public access, like outside a supermarket–at least not in our state. I think it is a First Amendment thing.
Again, it was a tongue in cheek response to the “adrenalin rush” of buying a lottery ticket.
PS–There’s always “jail ministry” to those arrested for preaching at the mall.
I think that is a solid argument if you accept that the only possible benefit of gambling is winning money and that everyone that fails to do so is hurt. But if you view gambling as a form of entertainment then you can say that time spent playing cards or hanging out with friends at a casino was an experience that someone would be willing to pay X amount of dollars for. As long as the amount spent is less than X then they had a good evening of what they consider reasonably priced entertainment. Again, compare it to a… Read more »
Nathan, you have merely side-stepped the issue. A NFL ticket is a commodity for which one pays an agreed upon cost. There is “consideration.” For me to enjoy a sporting event does not mean that millions of others must not (except for the half on the losing side). Gambling is predicated on hurting millions so one can win millions. It would be the equivalent of everyone else at the sporting event giving you all the money in there pocket. That is not the case. The fact that gambling has entertainment value does not give it virtue. I’m sure you are… Read more »
I agree that millions losing money is at the heart of gambling. It is also at the heart of the NFL, your local supermarket, barber shop and every other for profit business in the world. Do you think that most corporations are around just for the pure joy of facilitating business transactions? The fact that casinos are not non profits is not in dispute. The NFL, the barber shop, the grocery store, and the casino all exchange their goods and services for a price that allows them to make a profit. This is not inherently evil. The point of contention… Read more »
Nathan, if you view a casino and a supermarket in the same way, there is little chance I could say anything to convince you otherwise. I have not added my anecdotal experience to bolster my argument because you and I do not view casinos and supermarkets in the same way. I have pastored a church on the edge of the largest Apache Reservation in the U.S. I know what the casino has (and has not done) for the community–both on and off the casino. As I said, I have not offered this as support that gambling is a bad idea… Read more »
My comment is not directed at anyone who has responded above. A good question to ask is why do people play the lottery. I believe the answer is that people pay to play hoping for a wind fall, many with the idea that this is somehow going to solve any problems they might have or the hope for financial security or a “better life.” And that is all good if I were writing a promotional piece for the lottery. But as Christians, our hope lays in Christ and His provision in meeting our needs. Any hope or a goal of… Read more »
ALL your tithes and offerings come from sinners.
Lots of rabbit trails in the comments. But the original question I believe can be answered by Scripture. I’m surprised no one has mentioned it. Read Luke 7:36-50 (similar to Matthew 26:6-13, Mark 14:1-9, John 12:1-8) A woman who was known as a grave sinner (most likely a prostitute though we don’t for sure) used her money (most likely from prostitution) to buy very expensive perfume to anoint Jesus. Jesus did not refuse it. Pharisees thought He should refuse it, but He corrected them. In Mark’s similar story (though likely a different event), Jesus said her act would forever be… Read more »
The question was “what would you, (and your church) do?”
What a pastor would believe and want to do and what the church would do are sometimes distinctly different.
This accounts for at least some of the rabbits and head scratching too.
Churches can lean very much in the view of Pharisees–this and many other topics of controversy. Here’s another rabbit. You care to chase it?
Paul, this is an interesting perspective that I don’t think I’ve ever heard anyone posit before. I think it would carry a lot more weight for discussion if we knew that she obtained the money or goods through an immoral act. Following this line further, if a prostitute were to come in to your church and say she made $1000 hooking and wanted to give the church $100, would you take it? Would it be the same kind of decision as in Luke 7:36-50 or something different? Could a person who was known to be actively engaged in prostitution be… Read more »
I wonder if any of the commenters on this topic believe in storehouse tithing? That is, that believers are required to give the 10% of their income to the church of their membership. If that were true, wouldn’t the church be obligated to accept this tithe on her income?
(I don’t believe this, but just wonder how you would approach this situation if you do??)