The firestorm from yesterday really needs it’s own post. Here is a little direction for your ranting:
- The 2007 SBC Resolution ON PROTECTING CHILDREN FROM ABUSE was a good start, but this only came about after critics went after our denomination. It raised awareness, but is anyone more safe because of it?
- Most SBC churches are still in denial and think it could never happen to them.
- All SBC churches are independent, but that doesn’t absolve denominational leaders from their role as leaders. They do have influence to make things better. We should talk about failure to use that influence for good.
- The goal must be making our churches the safest place in the world – not just passing blame or trying to refute (unfair) criticism. The “I hate abusers” posture doesn’t really help, prevention is the only win in this situation.
Please throw in a few constructive ideas!
Dave Miller (75)
Debbie Kaufman (63)
Rick Patrick (41)
Chris Roberts (37)
Bob Hadley (33)
Frank (33)
Greg Harvey (31)
Bart Barber (30)
dr. james willingham (30)
cb scott (29)
Tony, Thanks for allowing us to discuss this issue. It was suggested on the other post that child abuse (all forms) must be addressed at a local level. I agree with that suggestion for the most part, but we do need leaders who will exhort/inspire a grassroots movement—sorta like the CR movement (please I am not trying to endorse the CR movement, I am holding it up as an example) The question I am asking my self is how much local church control, am I willing to give? Is it none? some? or all? Is that even an option? If we consider the Catholic model of church govt (which I am not endorsing)—How did it prevent child abuse? Has it stopped it? I am not sure I have answers on this but I can tell you that we ran background checks on our new staff person and his wife. The church is going to run background checks on all children/youth workers in the future. We had been a small church that knew everybody, but God has blessed and now we have new members from out of town and state. My associate pastor has attended a child abuse awareness clinic (I was on vacation) and we are planning on doing some education in our church. I think associationally a resolution at the annual association meeting is start, but we will need to move beyond just words.
I would hope that if SBC starts training at the Associational Level implementing some yet uncodified policy that would make a thorough viewing and discussion of all the related material from the 90′s a part of their educational process.
Barry McCarty, long time SBC parliamentarian was very influential in Eastern North Carolina trial system during this debacle; was Jesse Helms nomine to head the NC GOP circa 86.
This whole matter is complicated and frought with all kind of pitfalls.
I would hope all parties in this reformation crusade in the SBC discussion would develop conversational knowledge with all the implications of this superb Documentary on a harrowing, Kafkaesque subject:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/innocence/
I’m thinking this is going to take a combination of things:
1. Outside involvement: we’ve got to be more willing to allow legal authorities to investigate, and many churches have got to be quicker to call the police. If that means also working with state legislatures to strengthen laws about child abuse and those who cover up child abuse, even if that means lengthening the statute of limitations. There is no adequate substitute for the guilty having an actual felony conviction. Anything else could be hidden.
2. Inside work in training: we’ve got to acknowledge the probability of dealing with a child abuse situation, and train for it. I’ve seen great training offered on church finances, Sunday School, youth ministry, children’s ministry, senior adult ministry, and so on, and so forth. I’ve seen ‘preventing abuse’ as a side seminar or single point mixed in with other points. We need to find a manner in which we train ministers and church members how to deal with child abuse allegations. I remember being told as a first-time youth leader that if I got “involved” with one of the youth, I would be “allowed to resign” immediately. Had I not learned better, this would have been the only training I received about how to deal with a child abuser on staff. (Being 18 and terrified, I thought everything my pastor said was exactly right.) We need to train ministers what to do. We need to train church members what to do if ministers don’t or in solo pastor situations.
3. Inside work in ministry ‘employment’: This one is hard to discuss, since you can start fights over terms like “hiring a pastor” but the point is we’ve got to work on this. Background checks are a good start, but if there’s no conviction on record, other things can be hidden or explained away. This needs better training for churches and better behavior by ministers that help abusers escape. One of the issues might be encouraging churches to slow down: if he seems too good to be true, or if you’re being pushed to accept someone as a pastor/staff member in a hurry, something could be wrong. Again, training and willingness to be trained are at hand here.
4. Outside help: perhaps a state Attorney General’s office should setup a non-profit/school/clergy sexual abuse hotline where victims can call. This would be publicized through various means, and be available to all regardless of church participation or not. This would then initiate a proper investigation. If the allegation proves credible enough to start a detailed investigation, then non-clergy leaders of the congregation would be notified that there was investigation. And notified that the law does not permit them to try and hunt down the accuser.
Alright, now feel free to shoot holes in these ideas, but we’ve got to start somewhere.
My concern with the national or even state SBC database idea is this: who is going to run it? Will it be run internally? How does this avoid politicizing it or avoid allowing abusers to be covered up? (Keep in mind one of the complaints is that SBC Presidents, Convention staff, and Seminary Presidents have helped accused abusers find new churches. If that is accurate, how does having SBC Presidents and Convention Staff running a database help?)
In all, I’m afraid that we’re going to have to ask outsiders to help us clean up/prevent. However, if we can be active in formulating a working, legal framework that is more effective than what we have now, then all children benefit, not just kids in SBC churches. Because, keep in mind, most SBC churches are 1 business meeting away from being not-SBC churches. The only thing that keeps a church bound to the SBC is their continuing conviction that they are in agreement with the policies and theology of the group.
Doug
I’m not sure how having a national database of offenders is a bad thing, even if it isn’t the end-all solution. Sure, abuse is a local problem, but local churches can take advantage of national resources. Our church just recently avoided a catastrophic situation because we were able to identify a registered sex offender off a national database. It may not be the only tool, but why would we shun any tool?
Another thing: The recent fracas in the SBC blogosphere is not just about child abusers but also women abusers. Predators don’t just go after children.
Bill Mac,
The data base presents problems beyond just the Baptist held idea of autonomy of the local church. There is also the problem of “vendetta listings” occurring.
I am not saying I am in absolute opposition to the data base concept. I am saying it must be visited with great caution before any such thing is implemented in SBC life. I do think that the SBC needs to develop a spearhead movement to educate churches and vocational ministry folks that can be promoted and processed in national conferences, state assemblies and local associational and church settings.
CB: I agree that caution is in order. Once an accusation of abuse is made, it cannot be un-made and we need to protect everyone, not just children.
As a side note (and I’m not accusing CB of this), it seems to me that cries of autonomy come up when someone proposes something we don’t like and are ignored when it is something we do like. This seems to me to be particularly true of SBC resolutions.
I’ve seen this scenerio. “Rebecca Sue” who was born into this small church grew up beating up her mother, brother, and husband but the church “club” who controls everything believes “rebecca Sue” has “found her calling” in child care. When background checks are called for she refuses and the church “club” won’t push it. She’s a time bomb waiting to lose her temper and the next step for the “club” is to get rid of the trouble maker pastor. This “Club” mentallity ruins more than child care.
Exactly
Rebecca Sue is scary. I’ve met her on many occasions.
Sad, but true.
My hope for this topic is thAt the past is not rehashed and that focus is placed on constructive solutions that could go to the SBC on the form of a resolution and working group to help solve the issue. As a layman who has served on numerous search commitees over the years I would say we need help and guidance to protect the most vulnerable in our churches.
I for one think state and national data bases are good ideas. In states with two conventions, those conventions must figure out a way to work together on this.
There also needes to be some sort of an appeal process to make sure that an individual is not unjustly accused which I could see happen if a disgruntled church member with an agenda were to go after a staff member.
I think the database idea has merit, but it’s not the end-all solution. It is, on further thought, probably the easiest place to start.
Would it be feasible that, rather than keep a database of abusers at a state level, we adjusted our structure such that all ministerial personnel in a state had a file at the state, and it was the only source to get it? Then, one could “hold” that file while any type of abuse or allegation was investigated. A church would contact the state and request, for example, the file on “Doug Hibbard” and if there was a pending investigation, they would receive a letter from the state saying the file is on hold, pending investigation. Then, the church could contact me to find out why I’m being investigated or could just drop me from consideration. The file would be non-public, but it would not be truly ‘confidential’ since you’d have to be willing to let anyone considering you for employment see it. It should also be accessible to law enforcement.
The church would still be free to bypass the process, preserving their autonomy, but it would eventually become the norm. Most churches that are seeking ministers call their association or state for a resume stack anyway.
The file could contain a list of allegations, with victim’s names withheld, even if never proven. That would allow a church to see that “Rev. So-and-So” seems to have a problem being accused, it’s happened in 2 previous churches 5 times.
Again, a local church could choose to bypass the process, but if other churches, ministers, DOMs, etc, are talking about this system and your pastor search committee refuses to use it, the congregation would know to ask why not.
This would address, as Bill Mac pointed out the need for, more than just child abuse. It could address any issue that the law cannot or will not handle.
You guys made good points on the database idea, I hadn’t thought about it all the way through.
Doug
Doug wrote, “The file could contain a list of allegations, with victim’s names withheld, even if never proven. That would allow a church to see that “Rev. So-and-So” seems to have a problem being accused, it’s happened in 2 previous churches 5 times.”
My response: Doug, No attacks here, but concerned with this part of your solution.
I do not like, “even if never proven.” Anyone can make a charge and it would stick forever? One single accusation would ruin a pastor’s career. I cannot agree with that part of your solution.
Do you remember the teacher in Beebe, Ar who was accused of sex with a student? She has to resign her job because of the charge. Later, the student was caught on tape saying it never happened. The authorities determined it never happen, but I am not sure that teacher is teaching.
Jeff T,
You have revealed a real problem that we will face. I got involved in the case of a High School Principal who was accused of molesting his nine year old daughter.
Long-story-short, when the investigation was complete, it was found out that his wife and her “newly found” lesbian lover (wife was a teacher, lover was a school counselor) cooked up the plan so the wife could get the children in a divorce and then the “new couple” could move back to the wife’s home state and live happily ever after. The plan was revealed in the investigation and the principal was not charged, but the damage was done.
Today that former principal uses his Ph.D. to help him operate a bulldozer for a construction company. The development of a data base is going to be tricky.
I haven’t felt attacked by anyone (at least as yet), so no problem.
It’s a problem. False accusations are going to come, that’s for certain. Somehow, like Jim Champion pointed out, an appeals process to clear a file. However, if there’s one incident along with statements showing there’s no credibility to the accusation, versus someone with complaints at several churches, that might help.
A database would require training on how to understand what’s there. It’s like your credit report. Or take mine for example: in college, I got stiffed by a roommate for his half of rent and utilities all summer. So, I had to skip credit card payments to avoid eviction and darkness. For several years I had “payments more than 90 days late” listed on my report, until it cleared. I had to explain to a church that pulled the report what happened. I then went on to work for that church, it wasn’t a problem. Did it bother me to answer the extra question? Maybe a little, but that’s life.
I’d be interested in a non-biased statistic showing ration of false accusations. We’ve all got anecdotes on either side. I remember in high school knowing a couple of girls that talked about accusing a teacher they were mad at, but nothing came of it.
And yes, I’d be concerned that someone would accuse me of something and I’d never get it cleared and I’d find myself driving a bulldozer (see CB Scott, below). That’s why I think the better solution has to come back to real convictions, no matter how hard to obtain. If we go with just “accusations,” we’ll be caught in that loop forever. I remember being in Boy Scouts (I think someone else mention BSA) when some of the abuse situations came up there. The volunteer application then starting asking “Have you ever been accused of child abuse?” and for a time, if you said “yes” you were just flat out, whatever the outcome of the accusations. I think that would be going to far.
Doug
“Most SBC churches are still in denial and think it could never happen to them.”
We need to go ahead and confess that the above statement by Tony Kummer is true.
One reason the statement is true is because the conventionally recognized leadership (pastors and ministry staff) in Baptist life lacks the training in this area needed to properly lead in thinking through and developing a plan of prevention for their local churches and also how to handle an abusive situation when it arises.
I also think Doug Hibbard has made some interesting observations that should not be attacked. Naturally, there is refinement that would have to be made to his suggestions, but he has approached a foundation beginning for dealing with the problem.
A little follow up to my statement. Here is a news story where it almost happened in a church, but good policies and alert volunteers made a big difference.
I’ve also written several posts about this topic on my Children’s Ministry Blog. In one of them I point out that other children (or teenages) are often overlooked as potential threats.
This is the kind of stuff that need much more than background check or national database can solve. We need a several redundant levels of security for kids.
“We see evil done all the time”
———-Marty Haas———–
Thank you Tony. This is proof it can be done.
I’d refer back to the observations I made in the prior comment string. That’s what our church has done; it’s not perfect but we’ve done what we know to do, based on our knowledge that it IS a problem to be addressed by every church.
Having said that, doesn’t this have to do with church discipline, and the behavior we require of our membership, and those in our midst? And I truly don’t know to what extent the local churches face THAT responsibility either (with the exception of a few churches whose leadership I know).
God struck Ananias and Sapphira dead for lying about money; I think He expects His followers to act like His followers, in all areas. 1 Corinthians 5 certainly affirms that, and if a church isn’t willing to enforce the principles set forth there, they’ll probably not have the mindset to deal with protecting their children as they ought.
And it may even be affected by the Baptist mindset that those in authority in the church don’t really have authority, anyway.
The problem in a typical Baptist church is that no one wants any trouble!
They would rather ignore a problem / blame the girl / say it is an empty lie than confront that Choir member / youth leader who is accused of improper behaviour.
Our favorite pastime is “confessing the sins of others!”
One notes that the most helpful link above is the one to ABP’s stuff. Bob Allen at ethicsdaily.com has probably over 100 stories on this subject. I hate to go to ABP and ED for this when we pay perfectly good SBC money for our own outfits who should be doing more.
Some suggestions:
1. All church staff and laypeople should read everything Christa Brown has on her site: http://stopbaptistpredators.org/index.htm
2. All staff should get her blog feed: http://stopbaptistpredators.blogspot.com/
You don’t have to agree with her recommendations and you don’t have to like her criticism of SBC entities and officials. You will learn some things.
3. Forget about state conventions maintaining files on all ministers, certainly files that contain unproved accusations (translate: gossip) and stuff like that.
4. Read your church’s insurance stuff. They probably require that your church has to do some of the things you should already be doing, like background checks, policies etc.
5. Decide that staff should pick up the phone and call police when an accusation of child abuse has been made. It’s a crime, not a church situation to be handled internally. It may be a crime not to handle it this way.
“5. Decide that staff should pick up the phone and call police when an accusation of child abuse has been made. It’s a crime, not a church situation to be handled internally. It may be a crime not to handle it this way.”
This is it. You call the police no matter what. Take it out of church hands completely. Let the members know this is how it is always handled no matter what.
A big problem is that victims do not say anything for years. So, even if the accusation is old news (we have seen a ton of these where the perp went on to abuse for years) it should be reported immediately.
And watch those kids close who come to church without parents. They are ripe for the perverts on staff.
So, I suppose from reading comments many feel we should be leary because about 4% of accusations are false. Never mind the other 96% aren’t. Why would we want to err on the side of protecting a kid when we might ruin the pastors career? I don’t get that kind of thinking at all.
I have said before that the argument that a national SBC database would violate the church autonomy is a strawman. The reason is that if it is something “important” enough, ways around it can be found, viz., that if a church does not endorse the BF&M2K, no one from that church is eligable to serve on any SBC committees. If having some sort of database was important enough to the Executive Committee, or other SBC leadership, we would have a motion (or other efective ruling) that unlkess a church participated in a database (both providing credible evidence and using it in the sreening process for staff), no one from that church would be eligable to serve–maybe, it it were really important, no funds would be accepted from that church.
I still believe that, but based on Jeff T’s comment (#1) I am going to suggest a different tact altogether. I serve a small church (less than 100 in Sunday School, 120-150 in worship), but when we began to use a service to check criminal records, we discovered two things: one, that such screening is indeed expensive, and two, that one of these companies (I forget which one) has a contract with some entity of the SBC and offers SBC churches a discount for using it. So how about a two-prong approach? One PUBLICIZE the fact that the so-and-so company offers discounts to SBC churches (we found it by accident), and two, offer “scholarships” to SBC churches which engage those services, so as to help underwrite the cost. This cost offset could be on a sliding scale based on size, attendance, membership, number of background checks, etc., so that smaller membership churches with fewer resources would get the most help. As much money as we spend on matters which do very little to advance the Kingdom of God, I think we could spend some to actually help churches be safe and secure for the most innocent, and such a system as this would completely avoid the bogeyman of autonomy.
John
John Fariss,
LifeWay has a far less expensive “screening process” than any other I know of at the moment. We started using their program about 18 months ago. it has save us a lot of money and has been very effective.
Go to the LifeWay site and I think it is backgroundchecks.com. I can’t remember exactly. But I do know they have it. We use it. It has already kept us out of trouble once.
A friend of mine was accused of child abuse one time by a 15 year old boy, because my friend caught him and his girlfriend having sex. The girl was over the age of 18….thus, she was in trouble with the law… statutory rape. Well, the boy told the girl that he would keep my Pastor friend from getting her in trouble by accusing my friend of molestation.
Long story short…my friend went thru the humiliation of his pic being in the papers and on TV. He had to go to court….which means paying thousands of dollars for a lawyer to defend you. The boy and the girl were caught in multiple lies on the stand, and the jury brought back a “not guilty” verdict…thank God. But, still, my friend went thru hell on Earth all because this boy was trying to keep his girlfriend out of trouble, and this boy’s momma went berserk when they told her the lie, you know, “Momma, Pastor ___ is gonna lie about us, because he really molested me” kind of thing.
So, an SBC list of Pastors, who’ve just been accused does not sound like a good idea in the least to me. States alreaady have a Sex Offender Registry list, and the Pastor Search Committees should call people from the Pastors past churches and such. That’s the way to handle this.
David
David Worley,
I agree.
David R. Brumbelow
BTW, we had a man convicted of trying to kidnap a little boy move into our area and talk about visiting all the local, baptist churches. Pastors are spreading the word about this man all over our Association right now. Maybe that’s the way to deal with this as well. Pastors actually calling and warning other Pastors about these fellas. You know, communicating with your Brothers in Christ and in the ministry to warn them.
David
David, We had the same thing happen in our city.
So Volfie,
I know what you don’t like. As a pastor and staff Jenner charged with the protection of your flock, do you have any suggestions for what should be done?
What would you do if that individual you and the other pastors are talking about showed up at your church? Would you allow him to attend, assign a deacon to shadow him while he is on church property?
I live in the DFW area, it scares me to death when I look at the registry and see how many sex offenders live in a two or three mile radius. I don’t doubt that the occasional sex offender shows up at our church from time to time. The only thing we can do is to assure they don’t wind up in leadership or teaching Sunday school
I would have Deacons watching him, or her…making sure that they werent spending any time alone, or with children.
That’s one thing I’d do.
David
Since we’re talking about creating somthing only for Child Abuse we might need to create a broader base – and instead of adding more layers to an already encoumbered beauracy, have certain standards within the SBC so that if a church wants to associate with the SBC which has its advantages, it agrees to conform to certain rules , one rule of which could be mandatory background checks for ALL CHURCH WORKERS in an SBC CHURCH.
autonomy, Jack.
Vol is right and therein lies a real problem. It is not the only problem, but it is real nonetheless.
What do we do to curb our “Children of the Secret” problem and maintain the security of local church autonomy as a Baptist distinctive?
Someone explain to me why the SBC needs a database.
The only thing we could keep record of is convictions. If we recorded and passed out accusations, we would be staring down the barrel of a huge lawsuit.
There already exists a criminal database.
The SBC strongly recommends in their processes for hiring a pastor that the church perform full criminal background checks.
What would an SBC database provide that a check of national criminal databases would not?
CNN – BREAKING NEWS A mother of two boys she had admitted suffocating is found dead inside a submerged car is South Carolina. She needed to be in church, but not in Child Care. God Rest Their Souls.
I think the question is not just “Does the SBC….., but Did the SBC?”. Is the SBC have the same attitude about this issue that it did twenty years ago ? Thirty years ago? The answer is of course no because unless you’ve been in a coma or living in a cave no one insidevor outside the SBC has the same attitude. People like Christa Brown are focused on the past only and not on prevention today. Churchs and local associations are cooperating and sharing ways to keep churches safe. Even the SBC website gives “tips”. But there is certainly room for improvement.
The question you have to answer about a national database is this How much liability are you willing to open up the SBC too if you have a database? Will the benefits next worth the risk you expose the SBC to with a national database? Christa Brown and her I’ll will gleefully tell you that risk and liabilty doesn’t matter because the SBC deserves to pay and be damaged and even destroyed all for the sake of the children of course. Lawyers who’s job it is to protect the SBC will tell you no database no way no how.
By the time a name reaches a database a child has already been abused. Prevention should be the absolute focus. If you look at statistics you’ll see that it’s thoght the majority of these crimes don’t get reported and even less get prosecuted so a database would only be full of accusations. Prevention methods are what need to be preached.
To answer the question posed in the title of the post, no, the SBC most certainly does not protect and enable child abusers.
Does it happen in the SBC? Yes. If it happens even once, is it a problem that needs to be addressed? Yes. Is it a entity wide problem where denominational leadership (cough cough Paige Patterson cough cough) enables abusers to continue abusing? It most certainly is not.
It is ultimately the responsibility of a local congregation to make sure that people it places in leadership positions meet the character qualifications of those positions. No matter how much some people want to blame Paige Patterson for everything, the SBC is not structured in the way the Catholic Church is so that a priest who offends in one parrish could be transferred by the bishop to another parrish. Pastors in the SBC do not work for the denomination. They work for the congregation. Therefore, it is the congregations responsiblity to make sure the person they put in those sorts of positions are not perverts. A national database will not help with that.
Joe–
You are full of beans on this. The Catholic Church with its hierarchy and power chooses to ignore problem priests and move them to molest again.
It’s a matter of money over integrity–and that string is ending quickly.
Trust of parents as a Priest supposedly takes care of their children, yet abuses them, brings about an immediate leaving of the Church! It loses money, but–more important–it loses respect by not requiring morality from its local representative.
Hello GENE SCARBOROUGH,
I’d like to correct you by updating you on my Church’s policy regarding priests who have been identified as abusers:
“There is a Zero Tolerance policy on abusers since 2002. When even a single act of sexual abuse by a priest or deacon is admitted or is established after an appropriate process in accord with canon law, the offending priest or deacon will be removed permanently from ecclesiastical ministry, not excluding dismissal from the clerical state, if the case so warrants (CIC, c. 1395 §2; CCEO, c. 1453 §1).4″
http://www.usccb.org/catholic-church-sxl-ab.pdf
The problem is that it took so long for this to be established.
The lesson to other entities is NOT to delay, for any reason, what must be faced and dealt with responsibly.
L’s,
Would you mind taking note of my question to you about child abuse? You will find it in the, “When Prayer is Propaganda post. It is #77. I would really like your opinion.
Hi C.B.
My ‘opinion’, for what it’s worth, is reserved for now.
But I appreciate your interest in my own opinion and I can share this:
that I do hope for MANY MORE posts and a much more ‘expanded’ discussion on the issue to follow,
until some consensus evolves that WILL lead to a more pro-active SBC cooperation than is presently in place.
L’s,
I think these guys evidenced concerned thought and presented good ideas about a horrible problem in Baptist life and society in general. I also think that among these guys there is a “consensus” that something must be done.
That was my purpose for asking you the question of which you intentionally avoid in your answer.
L’s I think anyone would know there is a necessity for an “expanded” discussion.
L’s just read and answer the questions as it is without bringing political overtones into it at the present. There will be time for that later.
Did you read through the comment thread on Tony’s child abuse post? If you did, I think you would be willing to agree that the comments give evidence that many of these guys are very concerned about child abuse in Baptist life and desire to see some constructive action take place to protect the children God has placed in our watch.
L’s do you see evidence that these guys are concerned about the problem and desire to see constructive taken? Its not rocket science L’s. It is a rather simple question.
L’s,
That should be “see constructive ‘action’ taken” Sorry for any confusion due to my poor writing.
C.B., my own opinion is reserved at this time.
C.B., my own opinion is reserved at this time.
Translation: It didn’t come out of Cough-man, Don Quixote, or Christa Brown’s mouth so it can’t be any good. Many of the people who shared ideas were mean, evil, fundy’s who have the NERVE to suggestion that salvation is found exclusively in Christ.
Joe,
I think it is more than that although, that is part of it.
L’s,
Integrity matters. it really does. L’s you have given your “opinion” on numbers of things here and at other places. You had no problem in giving your opinion when Debbie posted rants about the supposed failures of SBC leaders relating to child abuse.
As a mater of fact, you never have a problem with sharing your opinion when it relates to what you consider to be failures of conservative, biblically orthodox Christians, especially leaders of any degree.
L’s these guys did their best to leave political and none essential to the subject matter theological positions out of the discussion on the issue of child abuse in Baptist life.
I think they did a pretty good job of discussing the need to do something about a real and seemingly growing problem in Baptist life and society in general.
All I asked of you was to give your opinion as to the evidence of their concern. Nothing more. Why could you not do that?
C.B. my own opinion is reserved, at this time.
Your opinion may be “reserved” but the truth about you is in no way reserved L’s.
Every person who comments on this board: BI guys, non BI guys, moderates, conservatives, Calvinists, Biblicists, Armenians, Haven’t a Clues, Young Guys, Old Guys, GCR lovers, GCR haters, GCR Could not Care Lessers, and the maybe couple of Real Liberals that come here now and again all know, if they speak honestly and without personal agenda, that:
L’s, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
Thanks L’s!!!
I am gladdened to see zero tolerence. Jesus advocated a millstone around the neck and casting into the sea for anyone hurting a spiritual or physical child. This is clearly Capital Punishment!!!
I personally know one of my young people from long ago is a homosexual today–in part due to a Priest who took advantage of his questioning his sexuality as a college student. This was part of the 70′s “if it feels good, do it” outlook.
God never takes a break from looking into our hearts and Jesus was as clear on this one as anyone could be = don’t use nor take advantage of people seeking God.
My goodness, guys–do you get some kind of joy in berating L’s when she simply says she doesn’t care to comment now???
Is it possible the Inquisition was in your previous life–as if you believed in such????
No matter what, your approach is “Inquisitional” to use a new word similar to “missional”!!!!
I have known L’s for some time and when she is satisfied her position has merit. she will clearly state what and why—and you will find her difficult to debate!
YYUR YYUB ICUR YY4ME! –can any of you wise guys give a translation???
Since you are extra busy beating up on Christa Brown and Christiane, here is the translation:
“Too wise you are / too wise you be / I see you are / too wise for me!!!”
Wisdom is never disguised. It is often thought to exist by blog writers showing their anger and hard-headedness–when it is really foolishness.
Wise people figure it out after a while–always!!!
That’s the database problem: some advocate a database that would keep “credible accusations” as well as convictions. That’s what the database idea would provide. Plus the idea that a church be removed from the SBC for not using it.
I know that above I allowed for the idea of keeping “accusations” as well, but that’s, I think, the real issue: I doubt any one of us would allow a convicted child molester on staff or in the pastorate, but what about those without a conviction but a strong likelihood of guilt?
Not to derail or defame anyone, but to take a media example: What about the OJ Simpsons? The people that it seems really might be guilty but the system let go?
How do we screen for that? And what collective responsibility do we have? If something goes on in another SBC church, am I (are we) responsible for it? We allow that we’re responsible not to associate with churches that put homosexual couples in their directory, but we’re not responsible to not associate with churches that allow molesters in the pulpit or on staff? How does that work?
I have a lot more questions on this than I have answers. I think doing nothing isn’t the solution, but I’m not sure I see a solution that works practically and is Biblically sound.
Doug
I’m not sure I see a solution that works practically and is Biblically sound.
In the end, there are those who claim to be concerned about this who really aren’t and therefore don’t care for a solution that works practically or is biblically sound. They don’t actually care about abuse victims. Just take a look at the people they accuse of being at fault for what they claim is a corrupt system that havors and enables child abusers. What is similar about the people they accuse (their theology, their history in the SBC, what organizations within the SBC they’re affiliated with)? What is similar about some of those who are accusing the SBC as having a denominatin wide problem?
Pretty easy to spot who’s blowing smoke and who actually cares about the kids.
Joe I’m very tempted to give you the same advice you gave me. I for one don’t want to hear diatribes against anyone (liberal, moderate, conservative or fundy). I want to hear constructive ideas. Just because u don’t like somone is no reason to trash their ideas
Do u actually have any ideas, if so I would love to hear them
Maybe you missed comment 33. Further, I missed the part where what you want to hear matters.
Fact–there are people who have suddenly taken up this topic who are looking to get an enemy not make a difference in the life of a child.
Joe,
You are absolutely right. There are those bloggers who have “used” the terrible issue of child abuse to advance their own cause or some predisposed agenda.
But thus far, in this post and the comment thread, it seems that people from “both sides of the track” are seeking honest dialogue.
You are a good man Joe and I love your grit and passion. But like Wyatt Earp said to Doc Holiday once (if I remember correctly), “Let’s try not to shoot anybody today. There will surely be a need for shootin’ later, but not today.”
Yeah it’s the use of the issue that really gets net to me. For my part, even though I don’t think some sort of national registry is a good idea because I don’t think it will do the job, if one could be devised that would work and keep perv’s away from potential victims I’d be fine with it.
I still think the best way to protect children is for churches to make sure they do extensive background and character checks. They ought to spend time getting to know the person. Here’s a really nutty idea–in the case of a pastor, why not develop men within the congregation who could mature to the point of serving in that capacity rather than looking outside the congregation.
A Tombstone reference is always welcome. Love that movie.
It’s a myth that the SBC is doing nothing. Just read throgh the comments and see all the ways being touted to protect children. Lifeway has partnered with a company to help churches get discounts on background checks. Associations, state conventions, and the SBC websites all have information on what churches can do to help prevent abuse. Insurance companies which insure churches have help available. The problem is how do you make churches do their duty to their chuch members? If churches aren’t going to use all the resources available this minute how on earth would a national database help anyone? There are plenty of people working to help churches. The problem is that chuches are being told only a national database will solve the problem so they do nothing and believe that those mean old men won’t allow a database and so we can’t protect are kids. They are absolved of actually doing the work by these so-called victims because (fill in name of good ol boy preacher) won’t allow a national database. Don’t believe the propaganda line that nothing is being done.
A national data base owned and operated by the SBC would be one of the worst things the convention could do. I have blogged on this before, and will do so again here.
1. The SBC exists for missions. It does not exist to keep track of professional and lay ministers. We give money to the SBC for missions. I want that money used for missions. I do not want one cent taken away from missions for some other purpose such as this. This is my biggest objection to this plan. I can think of lots of causes and issues that would warrant the opening of a new office or division at SBC headquarters. But I don’t want any new offices opened. I want the money to go to missions.
2. I have no confidence that preachers and preacher related friends in Nashville have the competence and expertise to set up and maintain an accurate data base. The chance for missing predators and the chance of falsely identifying non-predators are real likelihoods. It happens on data bases that are professionally set up and maintained. What makes us think that it would not happen at the SBC headquarters.
3. There are already data bases that can be searched for people who have been convicted of crimes, and these are set up by people in the crime fighting business. Why shouldn’t we use these? Why re-create something. No one to date has explained, even simply, how the data base that the SBC is supposed to set up is going to be superior to those data bases. At our church we run background checks on all proposed staff members, elders and people who work with teenagers and children. We don’t need the SBC to set up a data base for us because we are already getting good background checks done.
4. The information kept in any data base has to be accurate. That’s why most (if not all) go only on convictions or civil judgments. Mere accusations that are not proven cannot and should not be catalogued. So, often the problem is not that the SBC does not have a data base. It’s that local churches don’t deal with people who cause problems and create a valid, certain record. Well, if a local church is not going to deal with a perpetrator by prosecution, what can a national data base do about that? Unless the data base is built by people just calling in and reporting allegations. That would not be a good data base system.
5. The SBC does not have ecclesiastical courts. I don’t think I have to say why given Christian history. But without such courts, the SBC is relying on the civil court system. I believe that is the better way.
6. This is my last concern, and it is the least of my concerns (that’s why it’s last), but it is still worth mentioning, in my opinion. If the SBC takes on a duty such as this (one that the SBC is not skilled or qualified to do anyway), if the SBC makes a mistake, the SBC would be liable to people who were harmed by its mistake. So, if the SBC fails to accurately catalogue a predator and he falls through the cracks, or the SBC wrongfully maligns someone, then the SBC would be liable. The trial lawyers in this country would love to have a big fat target like the SBC to go after. To date, the money contributed by churches for missions has not been subject to civil judgments in this area. But if a data base were created and operated negligently, the missions money that is given by individuals and churches all over the country would be subject to confiscation in civil lawsuits. Look at the judgments and payouts that the Catholic churches have had to pay because of their actions and legal set up. The SBC has a much better legal arrangement in my opinion to protect our missions operations. If the people of the SBC want to change that, it will be up to them. But I would hate to see a $200,000,000 judgment come down against the SBC, such that foreign missions would go unfunded for a year. I guess we could tell the missionaries we lost their money for the year. They could come home for a year, and then go back the next year.
I say we don’t give the trial lawyers that opportunity. I say that we keep our missions money safe, and not expose it to risk in a project that that the SBC is manifestly unqualified to carry out, especially when there are good data bases already being run by people who know what they are doing. I say that SBC exists for missions, and that’s what is should do.
Here is what we can do:
1. Educate churches in spotting and dealing (prosecution) with predators.
2. Emphasize through campaigns the importance of keeping children safe etc.
I know that the emotions run high on this issue. I know that preachers want to help and be seen as helping. But those sincere motivations are no excuse for sloppy behavior and policy. It will only end up hurting the very people we are trying to help and put our entire missions enterprise at risk.
Surely we can think more clearly than this.
Louis may be right about the data base. Legal issues are his expertise.
But surely he is right in saying:
Here is what we can do:
1. Educate churches in spotting and dealing (prosecution) with predators.
2. Emphasize through campaigns the importance of keeping children safe etc.
If the SBC has a track record of doing anything right, it is in the area of education.
True. And this is why it takes a lot to set policy and procedure for a body like the SBC: “Let’s do something!” easily overwhelms “Let’s do the right something.”
Thanks for being a sounding board for ideas, folks. It’s helping me, at least, understand aspects of this issue better.
I had thought about the liability for a bad listing in the database, but had NOT considered what happens if a database called someone safe and they weren’t. That would be a liability disaster, wouldn’t it?
And I, personally, would hate to be the one person making those decisions: can you imagine a person who consider himself worthy of approving or disapproving ministers for churches? Anyone righteous enough to do it wouldn’t want to, and anyone that really wanted to probably shouldn’t. This is why we claim to discern the Lord’s will by combined decision of His people, isn’t it?
And Louis is right about the SBC existing for the purpose of funding missions, although we could debate whether the SBC somewhat exceeds that mandate in other areas.
Man, I’ve got to get back to studying other things….sermons to prep, seminary to start back to, so I’ve got to run. Thanks for all the food for thought.
Doug
Amen, Louis. I completely agree with what you wrote in comment #37.
David
These are good points. I’m still in favor of databases but we need not reinvent what already exists.
Louis’s objections to misuse of money given to missions raise other issues, like the ERLC, that I’d love to see addressed also, but another time.
But keep in mind that any education initiatives from the SBC will also take resources given by churches for missions.
Well fellows Louis is right and so is Bill Mac and Doug about the purpose of the SBC being missions. There is no doubt or debate about that.
Yet, I think maybe we in Southern Baptist life are somewhat behind in the mission field in at least one area.
Folks the “Children of the Secret” has become a great and growing “mission field” in American culture and sadly, that includes Baptist life which is my backdoor and yours.
Unfortunately damaging the SBC financially is a big motivating factor for the biggest motivation for a national database. Fortunately for the SBC there are those in authority who like Louis understand the damage which can be wrought with a national database. Not supporting a national database does not mean the SBC wants to cover up abuse. The sooner everyone undestands that a national database is not going to happen the sooner we can get down to the business of protecting children with the resources already in place.
Unfortunately damaging the SBC financially is a big motivating factor for the biggest motivation for a national database.
I don’t think everyone that is suggesting a national database has this in mind but I’ll be you that at least some of the loudest are thinking exactly as you describe here.
Not everyone advocating for a national database are motivated by a desire to destroy the SBC. The way you tell the difference is are they willing to discuss resources and means available at a local regional level to help churches. If they just “shout” down any ideas which don’t include a national witch hunt and claim only a national database will save the children you can pretty much know it’s not about the children. A national database should not be an all or nothing approach.
Louis for President!
Hold on there!!!! I nominate you.
I want to ask Tony if he thinks protecting all people from abuse, not just children is too far afield for this post. It seems to me that the specific buzz about sexual predators in the SBC just recently is about women being the victims, not children. In fact I doubt what some predators are doing to women in churches is even illegal, though no doubt some is. You see, I think pastors having affairs with women in their church is abusive, not just immoral, just as Clinton’s affair with Lewinsky was abusive. It is a power mismatch. I don’t want to derail us too much, especially since I’ve made a lot of noise about staying on topic. If we shouldn’t discuss it here, perhaps we could in a different post. I truly wonder which is a bigger problem for us.
@Bill: I think the same issues aggravate all types of abuse. For example, authority without accountability invites trouble. Bad policies and secrecy to protect “the witness of the church” are equally scary.
This is an issue that is VERY important to me for multiple reasons (my own life experiences and my knowledge of the sexual brokenness that exists in our culture- both inside the church- this includes pastors/leaders- and outside the church).
I don’t know if there is a “solution” but there is no doubt in my mind that the SBC needs to step up on both national AND local levels.
On a National level the SBC needs to identify and communicate “Best Practices” for protecting children from predators, pastors from temptation and false accusation. These practices need to be scalable for any sized church. Most large churches have some robust measures in place- like cameras in every room. But, First Baptist Church of Small-town USA can’t afford that. But every church can require only credentialed people into their child care area- that is not expensive.
Additionally- on a National level the SBC needs to study the pattern of abuse. Cameras in classrooms are nice- but is that were abuse is likely to occur? Probably not, more likely it is a predator who develops a relationship with a child and used that position of trust/power to have time alone with them outside of the church building or at least church times. Studying and educating pastors, leaders, and church members to these patterns is CRITICAL. If it has been done, I am not aware of it.
On a local level: it is time to be honest about how deep the problem is- sexual brokenness is more of a problem inside the church than any of us know or want to admit. Churches need to begin to talk openly about the statistics and realities of our world. Creating awareness and realizing that IT CAN HAPPEN HERE mentality goes a long way. I can almost promise you: if you pastor a church of 150 people for 5 years at some point you have had children in you church exposed come in contact with a sexual predator. I am not saying anyone was victimized- but I promise you they have been there. When we are honest about this we can have PREVENTATIVE meetings with Parents- let parents know BEFORE anything happens here is what we do and here is what you need to be doing at home to protect your children.
This is opens the door to another issue: The church needs to be LEADING our communities in knowing how to protect children from sexual predators. For one, I think this would be a great outreach to a community- parents (even non-Christians) are very scared about this issue an it is one area where they might be able to provide some thought-leadership. If I were a pastor my church would be hosting “How to Protect Your Children from Sexual Predators and Exploitation” seminars open to the public at least once a year.
Good words, Anon.
Anon:
These are great suggestions. LifeWay can publish stuff like this, and the SBC can promote it. We need someone to write some good material (it may already be out there for all I know). Some of the people who have been abused and have a heart for this could actually write some material.
To approach a problem it can help to be aware of how it exists and where so to make the best approach and hopefully reach a workable solution. I think this is a true statement. “ALL child abusers have a mental health issue;but, NOT ALL people with mental health issues are child abusers”. For the past several months in North Carolina because of lack of money, Health Care Clinics have been closing down. People who have come off their meds and therapy are staying in hospital emergency rooms for almost two weeks before being admitted or – worst – just going home. This number is over 3000 people up to last month. They are in our churchs and need to be there for the little peace in life they can find for a short time. But churchs need to be aware. The stigma is not present that was associated with mental illness 30 years ago. Now policemen, lawyers, doctors, legislators, pastors and just recently last month the FAA has agreed to allow air line pilots to use mental health meds as long as they are periodically evaluated. You as overseers of churchs where people go for relief need to know all you can. When people run down healthcare please be aware that better prices for meds and good nurse practicioners and “out of the closet” churchs and pastors are all part of the successful mix . Health Care is necessary – in my humble opinion.
All child abusers most certainly do NOT have a mental health issue. They have a sin that needs to be repented of. They don’t need to be coddled and told “It’s ok. We know you’re struggling”. They need to be told “If I catch you doing that again the ONLY thing left to do to you will be a post mortem…and that’s if they can scrape up enough of your remains to do a post mortem”. They don’t need help. They need to be punished–severely–and then never allowed to be in a position where they could harm a child again.
Joe is so very right. Ask anyone with an honest heart who works with pedophiles.
“All child abusers most certainly do NOT have a mental health issue.” Romans 1:24-28 speaks volumes to this.
All sin is insanity, but certain sins are illegal and damage others.
Getting into the topic of women being abused is a whole different can of worms. Chuches attract predators of children and women and they also attract women who like to play the victim and attention seeking women. You get into issues of consent versus no consent. Is just plain old fashioned adultry or did a ministers use his position to take advantage of a woman. Bottom line is adults are responsible for themselves and their decisions. It can get really dicey trying to sort out the myriad ways adults can get into trouble. Women are not always the victims in those cases.
Amen, Bess.
I second Vol’s A-Men.
In Virginia we use to tie their hand and feet and then dump them overboard for awhile. If they drowned they were witches. So is there still named “Witch Duck Point”. Better living with chemistry and consultation whether in diabetes, child abuse, or mental health and far fewer problems.
Again, give me a stinkin’ break. They do not have a disorder to be medicated, they have a sin to be repented of.
You’re welcome.
This may be interesting and illuminating to some. I accompanied my wife to court as she was a witness. During a long break we stopped into a Criminal Court to observe. An old man was charged with child abuse of a relative where many shared the same bedroom. The sentence was for him to be sent back to “whatever state” and never to return. My wife was furious and we had to wait in the hall so she could give the Judge her two cents worth. We did, she did, and he said gracously, ” That is the way this man was accustomed to living in the culture in which he was part in the inner city. It would have cost a lot of money for the State to send him to jail and he would have come back no different. Bottom line – this guy could have shown up as a janitor at a church but an NCIC police check would have exposed him and saved some child whatever his underlying problem was/is. To the churchs belongs the sins and to the medical professionals the chemistry if appropriate. Who says they can’t have both? I see no fight here.
this guy could have shown up as a janitor at a church but an NCIC police check would have exposed him and saved some child whatever his underlying problem was/is.
And, again (and I’ll type it slowly so you’ll have an easier time reading it), his problem is NOT chemical. He does not need “treatment”. He is not a victim of some horrible medical disorder. His problem is a sin problem. It is his fault and no one has to show him any pity for his perversion.
Joe: I see your point and also get frustrated with sin vs sickness debate. If a man abuses children, he has no doubt committed sin. And he has also broken the law and needs to pay the penalty. But if a man is sexually attracted to children, he needs to acknowledge that and get some help, whether through counseling or pharmacology or whatever. One day, these guys are going to get out of jail, having paid whatever society demands. “I repent” just isn’t going to cut it.
Let me frame it another way. Suppose a young man in your congregation has never done anything inappropriate to children, but confesses to you that he is sexually attracted to them. He knows such desires are wrong which is why he has never acted upon them. What do you do? Is telling him repent and making sure he never teaches VBS where you leave it?
I’d say that I and some other men in the congregation need to disciple him.
What you’ve described though is a sin to be repented of, not a disease to be medicated.
Joe: Fair enough. Does he ever get to teach VBS?
Not on my watch. See, here’s the thing…there are some sins that God has granted me repentance from that I no longer have any temptations to do. There are some sins that I have to struggle against the temptation. I wouldn’t be willing to chance it because the risk of harm to a child would be too great. However, some might say I’m over cautious. C’est la vie.
OK. I do see your point. However if an offender is out of jail and living in my neighborhood, I’m going to feel better if he is undergoing court ordered chemical castration.
Oh, now I’m 100% for that. When I said they don’t need to be medicated, I’m talking about giving them a medicine they take every day (i.e. someone with depression taking Lexapro). Now if you’re talking about doing something like that to them, I am 100% for it Don’t give ‘em a choice, and don’t give them a sedative or anything to numb the pain as far as I’m concerned. And afterwards, you still treat them as offenders.
I would suggest someone talking of his perversion is struggling and needs serious psychological counseling. No pills from a psychiatrist will stop a pervert.
The person must discover deep within his life experiences what is generating the lusts or perversion. Otherwise, it is a festering sore which never goes away.
It can burst at any time and then you have a scandal, or worse, a newspaper headline embarassing the church and bringing further evidence as to why people would be better off not participating in organized religion!
The problem with the “fix his sexual attraction” argument is that there are many claiming Christ who say homosexuality is not one of those attractions that need fixing. So I have a question:
1– Do you see homosexuality as a medical or spiritual problem?
2– How does your answer work out in life? Do we “fix” homosexuals too, or do we call it all sin?
Amen, Joe.
To some people adultery and fornication is a sexual disorder. Drinking alcohol is a disease. Everything sinful is just some disease or disorder to some folks. BECAUSE, JOE, you know that people are basically good, and the only reason they do bad things is because of mental disease and defect. Surely, you know that, Joe.
Well, that’s the word on the street in Enid I hear. LOL
Get real guys!!!
There is such a thing as mental disease–but it can be corrected as the person goes for serious counseling–and perhaps detention.
There is also such a thing as “sin” which is basically “separation from God / others / self-knowledge / the real parts of the Bible / a real walk with Jesus at our head / etc.
Sin is a disease of the soul. It is best caught by being overly righteous and domineering as the Pharisees were. It is made more ugly by foolish people following such leaders with big money involved. It ALWAYS flourishes best when people choose to remain naive and stupid that all things called “religious” might not be such!!!
Potential offenders will always look for holes in the system, but it pays to be proactive:
We run background checks on all workers. Access to our preschool wing by adults is limited to parents and workers using a photo ID tag system with security guards at every entrance. (There are fire exits with automated alarms.) Internal doors all have windows. Playgrounds are typically accessible only from the classrooms (There are external gates that can be unlocked for maintenance). And every children’s class must have at least two adults present.
Would such a set up guarentee 100% that a child couldn’t get hurt? No. But it sounds like you’ve addressed the risks in about as comprehensive a way as you can. Other churches could and should adopt similar polices.
It is good to see this topic discussed without all the transparent anti SBC rhetoric thrown around on other sites. I have offered these thoughts for gris for the mill!
1) Anyone, including clergy and especially clergy who have acted out or violated trust sexually or have acted in a morally inappropriate manner must IMMEDIATELY be removed from their ministerial position. If one is being investigated due to a credible allegation, they must be removed from their position of service until the investigation is complete
2) If they have violated the law it must be IMMEDIATELY reported to the authorities
3) If a pastor or minister is contacted by a church or any entity concerning one they know that has violated trust or the law in the past – they MUST DISCLOSE WHAT THEY KNOW to those inquiring. This is NON NEGOTIABLE
4) No degree of friendship, loyalty, service or prior experience can negate the above precepts.
5) There must be training and instruction on how to spot sexual predators in our midst. They do have an MO and their are warning signs
6) The bottom line – 0 tolerance whatsoever
Although the idea of a registry is a good one imho I do not believe it will happen because of the makeup and structure of a convention of loosely cooperating church’s and the possibility of lawsuits. The whole thing would end up being counter productive, therefore it behooves every church to do all that they can, and indeed every pastor and minister to likewise do all they can to prevent and report sexual misconduct and abuse in the church.
Let me tell you a real story from Rocky Mount, NC, where I was the Interim Pastor before they called an impressive man from Mississippi to be their pastor. Part of his impressiveness was his religious conservatism / pulpit furvor / AND a direct recommendation from W.A. Criswell, himself.
I advised the Pulpit Committee to check with his DOM back in Mississippi as well as a few other local pastors not on his resume. They only cared about talking with Criswell AND they called him. That was easy!!!!
Within 2 years, during a revival, this Pastor came down to confess that he had been having an affair with a lady he was counseling and she came down also. Soon a second lady came forward with the same story. Before it was over, some 4 women told of being seduced behind the door of his counseling office where he had put a piece of cardboard over the little window saying he needed privacy when counseling. The Secretary was to stay in her office and never disturb him.
More checking showed he had done this in several churches and his wife’s position was, “That’s the way he is and I have forgiven him.”
Sick / seductive / crazy / a more dramatic story than you find in any Soap Opera. Did Dr. Criswell know he was highly recommending a pervert who was habitual?
I don’t know, but I suspect religious furvor of similar men caused an overlook of immorality at the core. Both the pastor and his recommender were more than conservative and dramaticly presented an outward show of furvor and rectitude.
If birds of a feather flock together–which they do–I would be suspicious of any super-conservative claiming to be so righteous that he never has an evil thought and always is a “perfect man of God.”
Several “somebodies” knew what he really was, but refused to take responsibility to see his ordaination jerked–and him reported to police for investigation.
This is not made up. It carries no reason to say I am disparaging toward Dr. Criswell. The reality came out of the guilty minister’s own mouth. This Rocky Mount Church was hurt badly in its reputation as a pillar of conservatism.
Their next pastor led in organizing a boycott of Associational giving in favor of the private school he had established and was trying to fund. In both cases–organizing to destroy the Association and its DOM / abusing females who came for help, I think we have 2 clear cases of evil entering the same church twice. They were far too trusting of being told “the right things they wanted to hear.”
Pastoral manipulation and evil deeds are wider even than just sexual abuse of children. All are real and those involved must answer to God for their actions.
Why would we just “leave it to God” when people who know should act, but choose not to???
Jim Pemberton #62 Congratulations to your church. I read it so fast I have to go back and read it again. YMCA’s are and have been growing and they have good child care that anybody can stop in and see during the week. Perhaps people could stop at your churc and see the set-ups the public wants. I don’t want to fight anybody just to see us be successful in every way with the best product available. Thanks for the comment. I use to re-po motorcycles for my father who had a large Harley-Davidson business, from certain people that wern’t paying and their “motors” were being kept in someones living room. With that kind of “music” background I talked my way past a young thing with a badge around her neck at a church day school. I told the pastor and he laughed but took care of it right then on the spot. These people can be clever. Thanks for your statement. I have nothing else to offer.
There has been some substantial wisdom offered on this comment stream – wisdom that goes beyond the shrill words that have been so common.
David:
I agree completely. Too many blogs have a lot of heat and not much light. These comments are really thoughtful.
I was the one who mentioned the Boy Scouts of America in an earlier post.
The Boy Scouts of America does background checks on all of its adult volunteers. There are violations which have to be explained to the satisfaction of the Council Executive but there are violations which are an automatic barring or dismissal of the adult volunteer such as any sort of incident involving a youth or crimes of a sexual nature. The Boy Scouts of America also have a zero tolerance policy which means if you were to commit an act of child abuse in 2010, in 2040 you’re still banned from Scouting.
The Boy Scouts do not maintain a database for the precise reason of the legal liabilities that it could open up to the Scouting movement. I have some friends at the National Office and they got back to me this morning with this tidbit of information. Also, they said to coordinate, monitor, and accurate maintain records of this magnitude are extremely expensive and time consuming. Besides, you can’t really work off of just accusations at a national level.
A national database sounds like it would be a good thing. I posted yesterday that I wasn’t opposed to it but after talking to my friends at the BSA national headquarters, I’m against it. The set up of the SBC is prohibitive of monitoring the hundreds of thousands of ministers, missionaries, and volunteers within the convention. Now, the SBC could feasibly have some sort of oversight for its missionaries and I believe that they do, though it’s also not hard to find people critical of their oversight mechanisms as well.
As for the SBC and its ministers and volunteers, the best oversight is going to be at the state or local associational level as far as conducting oversight over accusations, convictions, and policies to deal with this internally. I think that the SBC, or the state associations could finance to some degree an investigative team of sorts which investigates accusations of not only abuse, but also malfeasance and embezzlement if necessary. The investigative team could work within the confines of a state or region and they report their findings to the proper authorities, be they pastors, associational personnel, or the local authorities. I would assume a team of about four or five people could conduct investigations of a serious allegation quickly and quietly without much disruption or rumor-mongering within the investigated church. A couple of lawyers, an accountant, someone with law enforcement training, and a computer technician would be an ideal set up for said team. Obviously this isn’t perfect because travel costs, salaries, training, and basically selling this to the convention as a whole is a nightmare. Personally, I’d sign up to be an investigator as long as I’m home a couple of days a week and a couple weeks a year. The SBC could even have my tithe deducted from my salary before I even see it.
I do think that there are days coming where the convention is going to have to lay down some rules and parameters concerning how a church hires its staff and recruits its volunteers. My home church is just beginning to talk about background checks and such with quite a few volunteers getting mad about it. Then I point out that if they have never done anything wrong, then nothing is going to show up. I also point out to them that this is to protect their children’s interests and also to serve to protect them as well just in case a violent offender were to suddenly lose it one Sunday morning and no one even knew about it.
The small town “everyone knows each other” mentality evaporates in front of “this protects your child” argument everytime.
The main problem is that churches do not communicate with each other and that the stigma associated with dealing with these types of accusations are often too much for ministers and leaders to handle properly.
Something needs to be done, but what do we do?
Bill:
It might be like everything else in a denomination with no central mandate or authority. I am sure that only the big churches in town had the capacity to show videos, to have recorded music, to have educated preachers etc.
But I have found that small country churches often have some of the wisest people. The “we all know everyone around here” mentality has to end. But the congregation has to shift its thinking. Some office in Nashville can’t make them do that. But good books, articles, and speakers who care about this issue can.
I bet a background check run out of Temple, Texas costs no more than one run out of Atlanta. Checking with the state law enforcement data bases, and actually calling refences and places where the person worked and lived is just as cheap, too.
And if problems arise, going to law enforcement authorities immediately (rather than trying to force “forgiveness” between perpetrator and victim) is essential.
All churches, big and small, can do these things immediately.
The mindset change and the will to act are the major obstacles.
Well said Louis. Especially this:
“And if problems arise, going to law enforcement authorities immediately (rather than trying to force “forgiveness” between perpetrator and victim) is essential.
All churches, big and small, can do these things immediately.
The mindset change and the will to act are the major obstacles.”
The mindset has to change to do anything constructive related to stopping/greatly reducing the risk of child abuse or rightly administrating the situation once child abuse has occurred in an average local Baptist church. But, most assuredly, it can be done.
Bill: Thought you might find this Seattle Times article about the sexual abuse problem within the Boy Scouts to be of some interest.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003849260_boyscouts23m.html
While the Boy Scouts may not maintain a publicly accessible “database,” it’s obvious that they do at least maintain regional and/or national in-house records. Their own records show that they have removed over 5000 Boy Scout leaders based on sexual abuse allegations. (And be sure to note … they removed them based on “allegations” and kept a record of it. They don’t necessarily wait until there’s a criminal conviction.) In the past 15 years alone, the Boy Scouts have kicked out leaders based on “allegations” at the rate of once every other day . . . and they kept an in-house record of it.
So . . . where are the in-house records for Southern Baptists on credible allegations against their clergy? Statewide? National? Why can’t Southern Baptists at least keep in-house records similar to what the Boy Scouts have kept?
Also … under the prior posting, “When prayer is propaganda,” I appreciated your sharing of your story about the pastor of your old church. Sadly, we know that stories such as that are far from unusual.
Totally accurate and wise, Christa!!!
I don’t see a problem other than the one we have made in our negligence to tell the truth in love!
I had cases of bad staff members bent on abuse. As the Senior Minister and leader of the staff, I acted immediately to confront the individual with no cover up. One was terminated by the Presonnel Committee when he didn’t change. The other ended up being seduced by our Financial Secretary who had tried to seduce the Pastor before me and was far too sugar sweet with me, although she never tried anything on me.
This was a church with evil in its spiritual leadership. Too many of them came from the choir which was seen behind me to the point more than a majority of Deacons were also choir members.
It seems there is a corrolation between talents in music / emotional involvement / tendency to be tempted into sin as Satan uses our talents even to accomplish corruption of the church which is not vigilent even on the deacon selection process.
I think “vigilence” is a key word. Did not Jesus say, “Beware of wolves in sheep’s clothing????”
Matthew 23 is a clear observation of “wolves in Pharisee’s clothing!” It is about as clear-cut a description of the “overly righteous makers of money in religion” I have ever seen.
I have the same suggestion I have had for years:
(1) If anyone is accused in a local church, it is up to the Deacons to investigate and act. Never simply defer to the police.
(2) Having found accusations to be true, then go to the body (local church / association) which ordained him and request they investigate as well and remove ordaination from that individual.
(3) Require the individual to surrender his Ordaination Certificate (But this doesn’s stop him from going elsewhere where he is not known and walk forward again declaring his calling to preach.)
(4) Herein, lies the problem of our system of loosy-goosie ordaining.
(5) Tighten up the process to include a Personality Profile Test administered by a liscensed Psychologist–the MMPI (Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory) has been proven to be highly reliable. It has a truthfulness aspect inside the test which detects lying.
(6) Recognize how difficult it is to catch a practiced con artist who has lied and gotten away with it from childhood.
(7) NEVER turn your head on personal sin and sexual improprity!
Bill, when you suggest a state or asso. investigatory body you echo what Christa Brown wants, only hers is at the Executive Committee level, which makes better sense because pastors frequently move among states and associations; however, the idea of a denominational body conducting investigations, and certainly conducting them “quietly” is not one that I favor.
If a local church does not do due diligence and ends up with a pedophile, shame on them. If others know about the confessed or convicted abuser and do not make it known to a church that is considering or has called such a staff member, shame on them.
That said, consider the issues here. The Baptist association, state convention, and Executive Committee do not screen any candidates for a local church staff position; they do not hire them; they do not supervise them; they do not set policies for their behavior. Any investigation by such entity has no application to any church or minister unless either voluntarily accepts it. Talk of the convention at whatever level setting rules and parameters is folly.
No one tells a local Baptist church what to do…sometimes not even Jesus.
Hey,
I was just trotting out an idea while trying to contribute to a civil discourse on this topic.
Personally, I’m not even a fan of that suggestion, but it is an idea.
As for background checks, prices vary from city to city, county to parish, and state to state. Prices also vary depending on how thorough of a background check you wish to run and whether or not you want to dive into a person’s financial history as well. You could easily spend in excess of $100 per check if you want to be thorough in a high price area.
LifeWay can and does help. Check out: LifeWayStores.com/BackgroundChecks
Which is why I floated the suggestion that the SBC and/or the Executive Committee and/or some entity of the SBC subsidize the cost of smaller membership churches doing background checks. We do it for all staff and volunteers, and the cost hurt–but then we have people in law enforcement at multiple levels who understand the necessity. Others do not, and perhaps a subsity would help persuade them. Will anyone engage this idea, whether for good, bad, or indifferent?
John
One things churches need to realize is akin to one truism I learned as a 50-year insurance veteran: ONLY honest people steal from their employers. Those who might steal, you’d never let NEAR anything they could steal.
Same way with abusers. Anyone the least bit suspicious, you’d never let near the kids.
Bottom line: you check everybody. No exceptions based on how well you know them, how long they’ve been there, excellence of reputation, history, etc. None.
All a church can do, is everything a church can do.
“All a church can do, is everything a church can do.”
A-Men Bob.
“Bill, when you suggest a state or asso. investigatory body you echo what Christa Brown wants, only hers is at the Executive Committee level, which makes better sense because….”
William, I have not found anything better than “up close and personal” when dealing with child abusers.
An educated local Baptist association lead by a diligent Associational Missionary can do more in any specific location than can a national entity with a data base.
I wonder how many of the churches who are appealing for some sort of SBC “Clearing House” for folks who pose a danger to children and/or women … how many of those churches are currently doing everything they can to safeguard their kids now. I mean, similar to what our church is doing .. video .. background checks .. rules for behavior of the workers, etc.
At best, such a denominational activity would only be of value where a church was already doing everything it could do, to safeguard those who need safeguarding. And those churches that don’t, don’t really have any room to complain.
I’m just a guy in a pew, but this all seems pretty obvious to me.
Folks–let’s face it: we have an ideal set-up for perverts with our way or ordaining Clergy.
With Baptists anyone can come forward and say, “I have been called of God to become a Pastor (except a female according to BF&M 2000).” We do not require a certain level of education nor any passing of psychological screening as do Methodists.
As long as they pass the Ordaination Council, they get ordained!
That Council is usually at the church level where church members and/or invited ministers interview the candidate. If it is at the Associational level, there is usually a designated Ordaination Committee with an invitation to any other ministers in the Association to attend.
No matter how the candidate is handled, ultimately a local church grants the Ordaination Certificate.
Should an ordained SBC pastor have a moral failure, it would therefore be the responsibility of the local church which ordained him to review the case with the possibility of revoking the ordaination!
Instead, we view the act of ordaination as irrevocable / we try to hide the facts as friends recommend him to another church / we most often blame the accuser (usually a female) for corrupting a “man of God.”
This is total spiritual schizophrenia!!!
It is a danger to all ordained clergy as people assume “they are all like that.” It can be handled quickly / it is a scriptural requirement than church leaders live up to a higher calling / it is essential we do something about this creeping menace which may be worse than the problems Catholics face today.
Someone always knows what is going on. This means they have a spiritual respoinsiblity to deal directly with it. If Deacons are doing their job, they must handle any moral failure of a Pastor / staff member / church member.
The Bible always calls for reconciliation and forgiveness as a first option. As a final option, it advocates removal of a “known” person with moral failure from the believer’s fellowship. Never does the Bible condone moral failure nor abuse of Christian love.
Let’s quit dancing around this issue and deal with it through the ordaining church or association. Whoever granted the seal of “setting a person aside for special work” is in God’s eyes of judgment should they turn their head and say, “Just let somebody else deal with it.”
God is watching us and never wants any child of his hurt with a preditor’s abusive and sinful use of the guise of “church leader.”
We do not require a certain level of education nor any passing of psychological screening as do Methodists.
Ah, yes, and that’s why sexual abuse NEVER happens among the Methodists. And Catholics require all sorts of hoops be jumped through to be a priest, including the unbiblical requirement of celibacy. They also have a large bueracracy and control what priests go to which church. That has prevented them from having any sexual abuse occur in their parrishes.
As cb said below…”Bang”.
Gene, Education solves the problem? Right! This is why there are NO sexual perverts who teach our kids! NOT!!!!!
Jeff–
You, unfortunately, missed my whole point!
Education prepares a pastor to know how to research and share the truths of the Bible. Far too many Baptists are like the old fellow in a Kentucky back woods church who was listening to Dr. Witherspoon read the evening scripture from his Nestle Greek Text and translate directly from it.
He noticed it was slightly different from his KJV and rose to state, “Dr. Witherspoon, I beliver my Bible from civer to civer!!!”
To which Dr. Witherspoon responded, “And yes my brother–I believe my Bible from cover to cover.”
There should be no premium on ignorance of the nature of the Bible! Those who read and understand it clearly do not make the mistakes many make who read it with little understanding nor training. A serious Bible scholar can learn much on his own, but few are that serious nor well-read.
Proper psychological testing shows traits such as molestation and anger which is hidden. The Minnesota Multifasic Personality Inventory (MMPI) has long been used to test for abnormal emotional traits. Several ordaining bodies require a candidate to take it or a similar personality profile test as a means of catching the wacky potential minister.
It has proven to do so!
However the greatest need, in my opinion, is to do something about any fox in the hen house. I have had such on my staff. Whether they were liked or not, it was my duty to confront their improper actions / give them a chance to straighten up / call in the Personnel Committee for evaluation and warning / terminate the ones failing to change their ways to that of integrity. A molester is usually attractive so some didn’t like my actions, but that was OK by me.
Why you would focus on this minor stuff, surprises me!
Going to seminary and knowing the Bible are two different things. Education (if you mean formal education) is good, but it is not the mandate for ministry. I have no desire to be like Methodists, and I am quite sure Methodists have trouble with sexual perverts in their church. Education does not allow teachers to catch every abuse victim. I do agree that their ought to be local conferences that give us warning signs, but if you are insisting that to pastor one must have formal education, I disagree.
………………………………The Farmer’s Revenge:A Baptist Blog Story……………………
The farmers nurtured the young heifer along. They worked together, each doing his part to see the young heifer through to birthing her first calf. These farmers had made an agreement to lay aside their differences relating to animal husbandry toward a common goal of seeing a calf born that would be used to advance the herd. The birthing of this calf was their most successful effort together in years. The calf was born.
The farmers rejoiced. They left the calf in the stall with its young mother. They all went to their homes to a good night’s sleep feeling good about their joint venture. There was peace and goodwill among the farmers. They planned to come back together and work together to see the calf grow and hopefully someday to advance the herd.
Little did they know that a hyena would come slinking in during the night from the North Carolina Badlands and ravage the newly born calf of great hopes.
One of the farmers came to the barn early. His name was cb. He saw the mangled body of the calf of great hopes lying dead in the stall with its young mother looking hopelessly on. The hyena was standing in the corner of the stall, blood dripping from its fangs, eyes glazed over in total ignorance of what he had done, but sadistically happy nonetheless. cb’s friend and noble comrade of many farmer wars, Joe Blackmon, came into the barn next.
cb looked at Joe intently for a moment and then said; Joe, you remember yesterday when I told you, Let’s try not to shoot anybody today. There will surely be a need for shootin’ later, but not today? Joe responded with a slow, deep voice of a veteran warrior, “Yeah, I reckon I do.”
cb brushed his coat back slowly to reveal the Model 3 Smith in its well worn holster and said, “Well, Joe, I guess you realize it is later and the need is for some shootin’”
Faster than the blink of an eye, both Joe and cb drew their firearms and shot the hyena a dozen times. The hyena fell stone cold dead in the stall with that glazed, ignorant look frozen on his ugly, lifeless face.
Beautiful story…I laughed, I cried. Haa haa
We’ve see a lot of good discussion and good ideas thrown out here. Engage with him if you disagree, but let’s not jump on Gene for offering his opinion.
Gene: I’m not quite sure where you are coming from when you talk about education. If you are saying that proper education will prevent someone from becoming an abuser, I think you’re probably wrong. If you think a proper education will help pastors spot, deal with, and/or prevent abuse situations, then sure. I think a lot of folks have said as much. It can certainly be done in seminary, and should be if it isn’t. But not all SBC pastors are seminary trained and requiring a certain level of education is the purview of the local church, not the convention. But we can and should encourage DOMs and local associations to provide supplementary education on this issue to pastors and churches who require it.
I’m not opposed to psychological screening at the seminary level. Perhaps it is already being done. It won’t catch everyone, but it might help. We should use whatever tools we can.
I really don’t think revoking ordination will be any help at all. Not all churches require ordination and someone whose ordination is revoked can easily be ordained by a different church. I understand where you are coming from, but I just doubt it would be effective.
Bill Mac,
If you do not resurrect a well and properly killed hyena, you good farmers might be able to help that heifer birth another “Calf of Great Hope.”
Joe and I will be around with freshly cleaned and loaded weapons to insure your work is not hindered.
Bill Mac–
Case in point: a few years ago the Wake County Sheriff indited a student at SEBTS for having child pornography on his computer!
This is real and it sheds light on those who want to present themselves as a “God-called man getting his proper education.”
The more we have “perfect and totally dedicated Christians who never have an evil thought,” the more we become open to pretenders who put on a great outward show while the inward person is corrupt and deeply hidden.
I’m not inditing SEBTS for letting a pervert into their student body. What I am saying clearly as I know how is that no one is as perfect as many Conservative pretend to be. Too many have a “thorn in the flesh” as Paul described.
The outward show is just too much. Any time a person claims to be “perfect,” watch out!!!
There is no such thing as a man never tempted by a woman or child.
There is such a thing as a human with sinful thoughts controlling such so that God can use them to bring about good.
Gene
Can a person go to heaven apart from repentance from sin and faith in Jesus Christ alone? “Yes” or “No”?
Gene,
Maybe you need to rethink this statement:
“There is no such thing as a man never tempted by a woman or child.”
Maybe you failed to construct that statement properly or you are poorly defining the concept of a “child” but you need to rethink it. Surely you do not mean it as it is stated at the moment do you?
If you made that statement as it is presently constructed while being questioned in relation to child abuse, it would be a major red flag against you.
I have no doubt whatsoever that something like Gene meant exactly what he said by including children in his statement.
cb–
I stand by my statement. It is a general one trying to say, “We all walk on clay feet, and–whatever the temptation–Jesus had it as a first experience after baptism.
Joe–
Why don’t you play a new record once in a while?????
You have worn out this one!!!!
Gene,
Not all men have lustful thoughts of children. The Bible will not substantiate that to be factual. And I actually have no idea what you could possible mean by saying, “We all walk on clay feet, and–whatever the temptation–Jesus had it as a first experience after baptism.” What on earth are you saying Jesus had as a first experience after baptism?
cb–
The Bible says Jesus was tempted as are we, BUT–with his Father’s help–he didn’t bow to it.
The temptations are specified in the Gospels as we all know. It matters not about specific “sins” which each culture defines in different ways. What is critical is the nature of “sin” = it literally means separation (from God / self / others / an awareness of whatever tempts us into that separation).
People who lust are in sin because their desires of the flesh rule them. That lust could be money / power / position / knowledge / carnal / food / the fine things of life / comfort at all times / the list is infinite and the things for Satan use are in every person who is human.
Those who acknowledge their leaning toward “sin” are much wiser than those who think there is such a thing a “sinless perfection” or a knowledge of what the “sins” are.
Check with Joe—he will gladly tell you the names of all the sins and those he is convinced possess them. I am always one of his targets—and you likely know others.
Am I the only person on this board who takes exception to these comments:
“There is no such thing as a man never tempted by a woman or child.”
“I stand by my statement. It is a general one trying to say, “We all walk on clay feet, and–whatever the temptation–Jesus had it as a first experience after baptism.”
I responded thusly:
Gene,
“Not all men have lustful thoughts of children. The Bible will not substantiate that to be factual. And I actually have no idea what you could possible mean by saying, “We all walk on clay feet, and–whatever the temptation–Jesus had it as a first experience after baptism.” What on earth are you saying Jesus had as a first experience after baptism?”
Does any other person on this board find this to be grossly in error other than me? Am I in left field to question this line of thinking?
Gene
I have no doubt whatsoever that something like you has an attraction to children. However, despite the fact that they taught you that at Emory it is NOT</b? normal for men to have an attraction to children and if you were to say that to someone's face, thereby implying that they have an attractio nto children but won't admit it, you would likely end up with a broken jaw and bloddy nose.
cb–
Please read my words clearly, I am not saying pedophelia is an unavoidable sin.
What I am trying to say is that when one human relates to another, there is the possibility it can turn into a sinful thing. I love my grandsons and 1 beautiful grandaughter. It gives me a warm feeling when they hug and kiss me as their grandfather.
If Satan had his way with any of us, those feelings could become immoral. Sadly, there are too many who love innocent children in an honorable fashion, but give in to temptation and start touching them inappropriately.
Personally, I have some Joe in me with that: “Cut off their body parts which caused harm!!!”
PLEASE—don’t put words in my mouth by adding your interpretation.
We all walk on feet of clay—period!!!!
“There is no such thing as a man never tempted by a woman or child.”
So the women and children are temptations? No, Jesus said “If your eye causes you to sin. If someone “is tempted” it comes from within THEM, and they must do whatever is necessary to keep themselves from situations that allow that temptation to act out. Just as we would all agree that the alcoholic must stay out of bars, we must also agree that the pedophile or rapist must stay away from children and women.
Not to mention, Paula, that for him to say “There is no such thing as a man never tempted by a…child” says WAY more about Gene that I ever wanted to know. I’m 38 years old. The last time I found a child attractive was when I was a child. Yes, there was little 10 or 11 year old girls that made my 10 or 11 year old heart go pitter patter. But that’s not what Gene said. He said there was never a man that was not tempted by a child–in other words, all men are sexually attracted to children.
What a sicko. What do you expect from an Emory grad?
Don’t know much about Emory but I already know more than I wish I did.
But yes, even hinting (much less reinforcing when asked to clarify) that pedophilia is just another temptation speaks volumes about the attitude of the one uttering the words.
I’ve been asking lately how we can tell Christians from anyone else, and the number of Christians able to answer that clearly seems to shrink daily.
Joe and Paula–
It’s so nice to meet 2 “perfect people” who deny any human frailties.
Get this straight: I am trying to make a point about humanity and its tendency toward temptation. Thre are numerous instances where a person who thinks he is perfect is tempted and gives way to sin.
This is most important: My daddy used to say, “You can’t keep birds from flying over your head, but you sure can keep them from nesting there!”
It is another way of saying, “We are all human. We all sin. We have a natural tendency to sin, but we don’t have to fall into it—and, with God’s help, we can defeat it.”
I once had a Senior Minister who was clandestinely participating in homosexuality. To keep anyone from finding out–he was overly zealous in condeming homosexuals if he ever saw them. His “over zealous” approach was the giveaway.
I will simply refer you to a Google of Reaction-Formation Psychosis. It is typically described as “Old Maid’s Syndrome.” It means the old maid who wishes a man was hiding under her bed and offering to seduce her were there. Instead of admitting to her lusts, she is constantly imagining such and calling the cops to report a Peeping Tome who is really not there.
Again, the key to its diagnosis is the “overly zealous way: she tries to pretend her lust is not real.
Frankly, you 2 protest too much so give your heart a read on temptation. I seriously doubt you are any more perfect than I am.
I have never molested. I don’t intend to molest, but that doesn’t mean a thought never crossed my mind. “Evil Emory” simply taught me honesty and a whole lot more about the nature of humanity in my Psychology Major!
You should have been exposed to a real education. At the least, it teaches you to “know thyself.” Don’t go there again or I may be forced to chastise you with Jesus’ whip!!!
Gene: I’m sorry to be obtuse but I’m not following you. The guy at seminary with the child porn needs to be in prison. You say you are not indicting the seminary, but who are you indicting? Whose fault is it but the student’s alone?
If Conservatives are pretending to be perfect, then they are wrong. But I don’t think that is fair to them. I don’t think anyone here would own up to perfection or even close. I think sometimes we do ourselves a disservice by wearing the happy mask too often, but that isn’t claiming perfection. At least conservatives acknowledge the reality of sin. Many liberals do not.
Bill Mac,
Thank you for your comment.
First: I don’t know any conservatives pretending to be perfect. If they are pretending such, they are not conservatives in the Baptist concept of identifying conservatives.
Second: You are right. It is the fault of the seminary student alone that he had kiddie porn. I know for a fact that SEBTS has done everything within the power of the administration to curb and stop the foul use of computers on campus. Nonetheless, it is impossible to control the way a student uses his own computer if his nature is bent in the putrid direction of viewing kiddie porn.
Third: You are right. The use of kiddie porn is illegal and those laws should be observed by any educational institution, secular or Christian.
Lastly: I realize we differ on some issues. (hey, like Jim Champion said of me, I don’t fit anywhere) But in this comment you have posted here gives me an idea that you are a stand up guy. That means a lot in my book. So again, thank you for the comment.
CB: Thanks. You aren’t bad yourself, for a Southerner.
Bill Mac–
I agree that the fault is the student’s alone. He was arrested and indited!
I am just remembering back to my days at SEBTS 1967-70. In that era of Viet Nam War / Integration / God Is Dead / etc. I met some interesting students–some moderate, others fundamentalist, others just there to learn from good Professors which we had at the time.
Not one on campus was hiding his perversion as a conservative student seeking a conservative-only education! The more perfect we pretend to be, the more Satan has the tool of hidden sin to work with!
As one you might want to call “liberal,” I well-know my sinful side and trust in the power of Jesus to assist me in keeping it under control. We have all sinned, as Paul put it–i’m just not seeing many in the SBC admitting to it these days.
Sorry!!!
And–cb–I personally know too many in my local Association and in conversations I still have with current SEBTS students. Pretense abounds on the campus these days, in my personal knowledge!
Sorry to disagree with you on this one!!!
Gene,
Who said pretense did not abound on that campus and all other campuses.
I said, “It is the fault of the seminary student alone that he had kiddie porn. I know for a fact that SEBTS has done everything within the power of the administration to curb and stop the foul use of computers on campus. Nonetheless, it is impossible to control the way a student uses his own computer if his nature is bent in the putrid direction of viewing kiddie porn.”
Good farmers keep the hyenas away from the herd, rather than simply taking revenge on them once the heifer is killed. My great pyrenees protects my goats and sheep so I don’t have to wait in the barn with a loaded gun.
Plus we don’t get many hyenas in NY. Lots of coyotes though.
Bill Mac,
If you don’t mind saying, what part of NY do you have your ministry?
CB: Pretty much as far north in NY as you can go without requiring a passport. I am an elder in a tiny SBC church but my main vocation is university instructor. We have 3 elders, one of whom is a paid pastor. I also have a small farm, started last year. So far the chickens are the only things paying their way.
Thanks Bill Mac. Sounds like heaven.
When I was a small boy, I dreamed of living on a farm and did for just a little while, but then life and the devil declared war and the rest is history….:-)
What do you teach?
Just curious
Primarily I teach Information Systems. I also teach in the Global Business program. In May and June I had the privilege of taking students to Singapore, Malaysia, Hong Kong, Beijing, Xi’an, and Shanghai.
Peripherally related to our topic: In Singapore I had the opportunity to see personally how a false accusation (not against me) of sexual misconduct can seriously disrupt the life of someone. On the positive side, the Singapore government rules their country very, very strictly, but they are not corrupt.
Bill Mac,
Based on the comments above from the North Carolina Badlands, I think it is a good time to read my A Farmer’s Revenge parable again.
Anything to keep Joe Blackmon laughing and crying and laughing and crying.
I think some of you fellows ought to become acquainted with Thump Milton in the Great movie about Hardscrabble NW ARkansas, Winter’s Bone; what one reviewer said was great look at Flannery O Connor’s Christ Haunted South:
Clikc on Theatres for a Showtime near you; Watch the Trailer. You may be able to figger who Thump is just watchin the Trailer:
http://www.wintersbonemovie.com/
It is not difficult, Stephen.
And that is what is so very, very sad.
The transcendence of this story is so powerful that
the ‘Christ-haunted’-sadly-frightened people,
whose needs to ‘keep secrets and lies’ at cost of innocents,
will recognize much in this film that will be self-revealing.
In this way, the film will hold up a mirror, like a modern parable, and there will be no place to hide from what is exposed.
I take it you have seen the film and like it,Christiane. I think it transcends the topic at hand. I was just offering it up mostly to taunt the fellows who are bragging about butchering and torturing, lynching the vile.
I think a better place to discuss the film is in the book thread.
May pick it up with you there if you want to make the segueway post.
Here or there would love to know if in fact you have seen the film.
Christiane: Don’t want to stray too far off topic cause It will just give Taliban Joe and DoubleKnot another opportunity to tell me I’m going to Hell, but I think you in particular will like this and maybe Bill Mac and Louis, though Bill Mac is tiring of my links:
http://www.religion-online.org/showarticle.asp?title=365
A “Pastor” association similiar to the make up of the American Medical Association which was modeled after the Air Line Pilots Assocould be created and could perform many functions beneficial to all pastors of churchs of record. With the number of pastors $5.00 / month would allow pastors to be independent of “church clubs” that demand their way or the highway. Freedon to preach what you know the Gospel to be and not what a “club” doesn’t want to hear. Records on churchs could be kept for prospective pastors. Records of pastors including background, forms suggesting legal contracts and a legal council familiar with church issues are all possible. Pastors should control Pastors. Added Insurance benefits for this group with some control that’s not possible has been achieved by these other groups and can be had by you. Requirements for security in churchs of different sizes could be created so the “Rebecca Sue’s” who were born into some church but beats her mother, brother, husband will have to have a background check or find another church position that doesn’t involve children. If done with the proper motivation many things are possible and a separate incorperated Association would insulate the SBC from libel. If you want to be “Professional” then you have to start acting like one and that includes controlling your tempers even when there’s NO STRESS. Thank you very much.
Read Brothers, We are not called to be professionals by John Piper. I have no desire to be a professional, but a man called by God.
Amen, Jeff. I don’t know that anything having to do with the Airlines is a good model for anything — including how to run an airline
Someone said to put this Association under the SBC Executive Committee and that’s exactly why I said this should be Independent and PASTOR Controlled with no other responsibilities or ties.
Since things are quiet on this front I’ll tell you that I was around when the Virginia State Police decided to form an Association which took personal courage in my opinion on the parts of many and to the best of my knowledge they remain organised today providing the citizens of Virginia service that I’m sorry to say sometimes costs them their lives. Many pastors have also died in church and out along with their congregants and probably with no provisions to support their familys in such unusual occurrences. My point is to “not try this at home” as there are professionals with the experience to get the job done and then they either hand it to you or help you over see it, but in any event they work for you. Pastors have unique positions and qualifications which many can imitate without the public ever knowing a charleton, a phoney is in front of them. Kind of like painting a car and putting a red light on it and some one pretends to be a police officer. I don’t think its funny. I’m done unless someone gets my email address from Tony Kummer to bounce this around which is o.k. with me for one or two. I’ll then turn someone or some interested persons toward several choices to choose from. Takes balls to play rugby and I’m way too old but I do have an iron in the fire. God Bless and have a good Sunday.
Hi C.B.,
Take a REALLY GOOD look at your behavior here:
“Your opinion may be “reserved” but the truth about you is in no way reserved L’s.
Every person who comments on this board: BI guys, non BI guys, moderates, conservatives, Calvinists, Biblicists, Armenians, Haven’t a Clues, Young Guys, Old Guys, GCR lovers, GCR haters, GCR Could not Care Lessers, and the maybe couple of Real Liberals that come here now and again all know, if they speak honestly and without personal agenda, that:
L’s, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.”
Now, C.B., you just threw a ‘C.B. tantrum’ which happens when you don’t ‘get your way’. I think you are better than that, or could be.
In the words of my military family:
‘Grow up’.
Tantrums are for those who have no better response. I think you are definitely better than ‘tantrums’.
Think about it.
Possibly, you are stressed out when these ‘tantrums’ occur.
I suspect that is the case, C.B.
And I am very understanding, if that is the case.
But you owe it to yourself and to others around you who care about you to do much better publicly than silly tantrums.
L’s,
No tantrum whatsoever. Tantrums come from people who are angry or desperate. I am neither. But I am disappointed in you and I also pity you.
I am disappointed in you because you cannot enter into a dialogue with Baptists of any stripe wherein you are not casting aspersions at either a conservative Baptist or some other conservative Christian who has become the target of ridicule for something he or she has done or said.
I pity you L’s because you are lost and know not the Christ of the gospel. But, I am not going to go into that with you today L’s. I have shared the gospel with you on many occasions as have others. You have been given the gospel. You have refused the gospel. Your blood is on your own hands.
Therefore L’s, I pity you. I truly do.
I think you are stressed out, C.B.
The saddest part of it all, cb, is that she’s not ignorant. She knows the truth. She just refuses to submit to the truth. Of course, with people like Cough-man and Don Quixote telling her she’s really saved, why wouldn’t she reject it?
You are right Joe.
L’s is far from ignorant. She is a very bright person. She is far brighter than those you mentioned. Yet she is blind.
L’s,
Stress is a necessity of life. Some deal well with it some don’t.
I was well trained to work, think and act under great stress. In distantly past years I was often chosen for specific “chores” because it appeared to those who chose me that I was extremely efficient in stressful situations that would inhibit many others. Whether that is true or not, who knows? Anyway, that was their opinion and why I was often requested.
Yet, obviously it seems that to some degree those folks were right. I do seem to thrive well and do some of my best work under stress. I say that because I am still here and others are not.
Therefore L’s, whether I am under stress or not is not is not consequential to the reality that I along with many others know:
L’s, your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
You despise conservative, biblical Christians, resent any Christian in general, run swiftly to condemn their real or unreal shortcomings and failures and never celebrate their victories. You are lost without the Christ of the gospel.
And lastly, I truly pity you.
But know this L’s, if I can ever help you in any way, that does not break the laws of God and man, of which I am able of mind, soul and body, you can call on me. And know this also; I do not cease to pray for you. For ever since I “met” you in blog threads, I am burdened for your soul.
I don’t think Blackmon could diagnose a wart on a toads butt. Here he comes !
Considering you think child molesters are just poor victims of bad biology and need “treatment” rather than punishment, what you “think” is pretty much irrelevant.
Joe: I think you are both a victim of Bad Biology and Need Jesus; the old Double Whammy.
I do want you to get to know this Thump Milton character in Winter’s Bone,the Movie. May help you a little. There is a good preacher in there.
Why would anyone need Jesus? According to you, the islamic faith is sufficient to save someone.
Joe have you accepted Jesus as your Saviour? What is the evidence? What does your wife say? What has she seen in your life that suggests that you are a Christian.
I don’t know where you get that I believe the Islamic Faith is sufficient just because I don’t answer your question.
Listen you have a nice day and keep being a Balaam’s donkey; And for God’s sake don’t read anything.
That a boy Jack, great point.
Steve, Still running from the question I see!!!
Jack,
I hope not. That would be a great waste of time for both Joe and the frog.
SSBN = You’re not catching on but just trying to slam me personally. It’s not about running an airline but how to perhaps take care of say pilots and their families while the airline is in its death throw. But I think you know that you’re sticking up for a buddy that has slammed me for saying nothing wrong. I could hurt you guys feelings with the truth like $50,000 / yr with no medical, dental, retirement with social security and other taxes taken out is not a huge income to raise a family on. But it will never change unless your name is Johnny Hunt or Joel Whoever or Rick Warren etc. God does not expect you to starve and walk around with your heads bowed all the time. Miners in W.VA don’t do bad but they paid the price and I’ll have to check up on airline pilots if that is your concern.
Jack,
Obviously I have missed something or I am having computer trouble. Would you mind telling me what you are talking about in comment #157 about truth and $50.000.00 and no benefits, Hunt, Warren and Whoever Coal miners in WVA. and airline pilots?
Wow! Jack. Lighten up. I used a smiley face. Much I said in tongue and cheek rather than just say your idea is stupid, doesn’t have a chance of ever being implemented and shows a complete ignorance of what it means to be an SBC pastor.
I thought my light-hearted approach might be less offensive. By the way, you seem a little thin-skinned for someone who talks about “having balls” and intimate knowledge of toad butts
O.K. On Topic a little. Abuse is what we’re talking about. Abuse of another person whether a child, a pastor taking advantage of a congregant, a boos trying to extract favors from a woman under threat her husband won’t work. People who abuse and take advantage of others meager positions and don’t pay them for what they’ve done – it’s all plus much more is abuse of human beings and the people who do this stuff are the scum of the earth. Blackmon when you take what I’ve written and intentally put words into my mouth and draw conclusions for your own purpose, your abusing this system and you’re not big or adult enough to get away with it. I said I am for whatever treatment works on a child abuser whether medical, spiritual or combination if indeed certain abusers have conditions that are insulated from any treatment. I brought up minors. Ludlow Colorado. The minors took their wives and families out of town and set up tents. Inside they dug down into the ground for protection. Organising wasn’t legal then and the troops machine guns shot into the tents and then went down and set fire to them. Almost all died. That’s abuse. A dynamic lady who became known as “Mother Jones” at about 5 feet tall with a hard life behind her stood up and even marched children to Teddy Roosevelt’s home in N.Y. announcing they would rather go to school than work 50 hours a week which is child abuse. Look her up . Even tho she died about 1930 there won’t be many in the mining States who don’t know her name. She was Catholic for the record and all her children died. Abuse has many forms and lip service doesn’t count for very much unless it solves somthing. AMEN
SSBN people have varying opinions on whether somthing is stupid or not but you can’t forsee the future. “It can’t be done” has been said many times without putting fear into anybody. I don’t lighten up when people just flat out lie about what I’ve said. I don’t take directions from from someone that doesn’t understand. “Balls to play rugby” is so nice I had to think hard how to say it. I’m no cream puff and I’ve survived to be able to say that. I wouldn’t volunteer any friends names that are good at this stuff because they’d want to know how I ran into you guys. Pat yourself on your backs.
I’m sorry you have such a sad, difficult life, Jack. I don’t know where I “lied about what you said.”
I don’t remember calling you a ‘creampuff’ either. I also didn’t offer any “directions.” If you say you are “tough guy,” hey–I can’t dispute that.
I don’t recall trying to put any “fear into anybody” either.
So, feel free “not to lighten up.” Go out and play some rugby. Heck, beat up on some biker dudes. But, as far as your reply: I’m sorry for offending you with all the things I didn’t say.
I just don’t agree with it. And, by the way, I do know the future — at least parts of it.
SSBN If I’m the old coot you referrenced let me say that I thought reading about “Mother Jones” a lady of small stature, who had the voice , the heart, the purpose and possessed qualities many preachers would like to emulate and who could excite the masses. Who knows maybe you’d even come away with somthing if you heard her in front of her audience and were willing to learn!
Wow! You even argue with posts that have nothing to do with you.
I thought you went to great lengths to tell us how “tough you were.” I was just agreeing with you. You seem to be mixing up several different people. Maybe you should get a notebook so you at least argue with the right people.
I never said anything to you about being an “old coot,” but as my daddy always said, “if the shoe fits, wear it.”
By the way, I have not intention of patterning my life after “Mother Earth,” or any other human being. I think that is what gets us into the messes we find ourselves in.
And, I understand that when you can’t defend your ideas, you have to attack your opponent. Why you would chastise me because Blackmon lied, I don’t know. Go whip up on him. Hey! Smack him once for me. I’m sure someone as evil as he is must have done something to me at some point
SSBN That was Blackmon that lied. What give you the idea I have a sad difficult life. How do you dream that up. Tough Guy again are your words – making stuff up must be a habit you’ve fallen into or shall we just call it rhetoric. If “bull dinky” was a penney a pound some would be millionaires.
LOL
SSBN & BLACKMON If you guys don’t realise you distort the truths people have written, then how can anybody trust you to interpret the written Word. Your not reliable to perform your jobs because we can’t rely on your memories.
Jack, read your own posts. As I said before, you can’t even attack the right person. I only quoted what you said so if I lied, I was only restating what you said.
You keep lumping me with Blackmon implying that I even know who he is. I’m not sure it is fair to make Mr. Blackmon look bad by associating him with the likes of me. I’m sure he resents that.
And why would I want to distort what you say with you misstate things so beautifully
Hey Jack, let’s look at some of your words to see if I distorted them.
QUOTE I could hurt you guys feelings with the truth like $50,000 / yr with no medical, dental, retirement with social security and other taxes taken out is not a huge income to raise a family on. END QUOTE
It won’t hurt my feelings to say anything about $50K a year. I raised my family on much less as a pastor and was honored to serve the Lord without whining. Sorry to disappoint you.
QUOTE God does not expect you to starve and walk around with your heads bowed all the time. END QUOTE
As I said, you don’t have a clue as to what it means to be an SBC pastor. I have friends who have been in the ministry almost all their adult lives and I don’t know any walking around with their heads down. That’s a figment of your imagination.
QUOTE Miners in W.VA don’t do bad but they paid the price END QUOTE I grew up in the coal fields of W.Va. You might want to go back and do some research before you suggest that some how they gained an upper hand on management through unionizing (if that is what you were indeed implying about them and the airlines. Your thoughts are a little tough to follow).
Feel free to show me where I’m distorting what you are saying. I’m just trying to sort your thoughts out the best I can. Once I have done that, my opinion is: I’m not sure what you are saying.
SSbn I stand on everything I’ve written whether you can understand or not. Pastors were hired by the coal companies and told what not to preach. They , pastors were a small part , but a part of the problem. They helped hold the miners and their families in bondage because they sold out. RThat’s history now and there are many fine churchs in and thru the mining states. But you should know that since you say you “grew up in the coalfields”. You didn’t grow up there by yourself.
So, Jack, you take one anecdotal story from one limited place and time and you extend it to create some “principle” upon which you attack someone who actually has been at a coal mine.
If that is your view of history, I can’t wait to hear your take on Alice in Wonderland.
In my limited experience of living in a coal mining town, I never ONCE saw evidence of the behavior you speak about. I DID see the opposite during times of bitter battles between management in miners. But, hey, that’s just first-hand testimony. I’m sure your book learnin’s much more accurate.
One story extended ad infinitum is called, “hasty generalization.”
Today there are small town Baptist churchs that hire pastors and then tell them when they reach out to the black community that they have grown up “with them” and don’t need to have them in church. Some weak kneed rubber back boned so called clergy cave in to these “clubs” that run their sunday services after breakfast. Others don’t because they can’t tolerate teaching part of the Bible and the lessons it has. I’m not going back and read what I wrote, I’ve lived them and backed them up even when you and others say”lighten up”.
Again, Jack, you make these hasty generalizations that simply don’t hold water. I’m white and I’m married to a white lady who attended four years at an all black school in the inner city. I’ve pastored more than one church in the inner city, and I must say, I agree that there are a few isolated churches that have the bad attitude you memoralize in your anecdotal mind.
However, you sling mud far and wide in a careless manner when you make your limited experience the basis of all truth.
Sir, you are simply wrong to make the broad statements you make based solely on your own experience and imagination. I’m sure that in the fictional world of your own mind you will indeed “stand by what you say” because one’s delusions become one’s realities.
I don’t post to change your mind, just to balance the blog scales.
SSBN–
Hate to tell you, brother, but I know far too many churches in my GA / SC / NC experiences. One I pastored had a framed statement in the front vestibule drawer: “We appreciate your coming today, but you are not welcome. We will gladly show you to a church of your color.”
Quitely, and without asking permission, I put it in “file 13″!!!
AND this was one of my nicest churches to pastor!!!!
Gene, out of the 45,000+ congregations in the SBC today, name 50 that anything like that in their church.
You are just slinging mud hoping some of it will stick.
Again, you have one “anecdotal” story (very old at that I suspect) and you make it a rule of church practice across SBC life. My suspicion is you have an “ulterior” motive.
And, the fact that you admit pastoring “said” church tells me about your principles. I don’t consider throwing a poster in the trash without anyone knowing to be a principled approach to fighting something as ugly as racism. That’s just my opinion.
SSBN
Whether old or not, the story is true. My question at the time was, “Why would the White Baptist Church be the last to change a situation with demeans a fellow human created in the image of God???”
Now we have new ones to “invite out:”
(1) Homosexuals
(2) Liberals / Democrats
(3) Cooperative Baptist Fellowship participants
(4) Anyone not sucking up to WASP ways
This just names a few, sad to say.
How about “Christian Schools”–for white Christians only???
I have been in Mobile, ALA, and seen the big churches having cops to direct traffic. Beneath its surface still exists some of the most regressive racial attitudes I saw over and over as I cleaned up after Hurricane Katrina.
An honest businessman also spoke of the political / legal corruption: “In this town there are few honest businessmen who didn’t tangle with a dishonest person–and they went to jail in the process!”
Going in masses to churches / corruption in every corner = I see a shizophrenic situation here. “They be crazy!!!”
Gene, I have to admit that you do not make much sense to me in your posts. It’s as if you use words in a way that is unique to yourself.
You say, “Even if the story is not true . . . ” That would make it even worse than an isolated anecdote. So, my disagreement with you would naturally be stronger.
When was the last time a CBF’er tried to join a conservative, bible-believing church? Don’t they have their own churches? That makes no sense whatsoever to me.
And, just for the record, name one bible-believing church that would not allow a homosexual to come and hear the gospel. I don’t know of any, and I’ve been around more than a few. And, I pastor in California. So, that’s a red herring.
And #4: “WASP WAYS?” Don’t get that at all. Unless you are talking about the stinging kind — I admit to showing them the door (or shoe depending on circumstances).
Now, I will freely admit that if a CBF-er happened to attend my church, he or she might be offended by any or all I typically preach. I am a pretty conservative preacher. But, I don’t survey to the crowd to determine my message. So, yes, a CBF-er would feel uncomfortable, and probably not come back. In that case, he or she “univites” himself or herself.
The same with the homosexual seeking to justify rather than overcome his or her sin. They would probably uninvite themselves also. I think I’d feel the same way in the Metropolitan Community Church.
So, your point is not well made in your inuendo that all SBC churches are cold and racists if they are conservative. I will grant you that “some may be,” and I join you in condemning them. On that we do agree.
SSBN–
WASP = White Anglo-Saxon Protestant (maybe we have a generation gap problem her in communication.
Why not quit parsing nouns / verbs and simply try to comprehand my description of the inconsistency and spiritual schizophrenia of Mobile????
Look at the controversy today which is mostly election jive and then go inside these cities where people are married to muslims, spanish, Puerto Ricans, and see if they that live there are bothered by a church within 3 blocks of ground zero. They already go to a mosque a few more blocks away with their children and wives who are mixed desent. Some of you need to walk the walk so you can talk the talk with sincerity otherwise you don’t make a pimple on a real Pastors rear end. No , I don’t have a fettish for rear ends or butts but I’ve kicked a few I wouldn’t trust to treat my dogs well. You suggest I ” beat up some biker dude” If you knew anything about life you’d realise that some of those people are more trusting to their word and are at least honest about what they do and don’t believe. I can handle that. What kind of Blue Blood do you profess to be. There are judges and lawyers in my family with ranches and airplanes that are “Porta- ma- guese” , mixed race that wouldn’t let you in their driveway and the SBC wonders why they are dying. Mostly because they are all white mentally ill puke pockets teaching their own brand of the KJV that allow children of any age, that’s any age to vote on church policy in an attempt to their baptist church from becoming a restaurant. No sir, You lighten up.
QUOTE If you knew anything about life you’d realise that some of those people are more trusting to their word END QUOTE
If you knew anything about hard-core bikers, you would realize how stupid your statement is — like many you make.
Like your statements about ground zero: you obviously do not know anything about the Muslim faith. This proposed mosque is much different from the one four or five blocks away. You’d know that if you knew anything about the warring nature of the Muslim faith according to the 109 plus war verses.
And, you complained when I agreed you were a “tough guy,” and yet, you once again mention how many “butts you kick.” Please don’t use such language and then attack those who point it out.
I’m not here in this post arguing for or against the building of the mosque, I’m arguing against the ignorance of the Koran that makes westerners say stupid things.
And what’s with the statement about all the “porta-ma-guese” lawyers and judges in your family? Talk about explorations into outer space. Man, you left me behind on that one.
AMEN & AMEN!!!!!!
I think Joe Blackman has met his match!!! Along with a few others who tend to abuse those who disagree with them.
I’m assuming you are doing some “reflecting.”
Jack’s got some points that call for a group viewing of Winter’s Bone; a group read of Spindles and Spires and Millhands and Preachers; and portions, chapters of Will Campbell.
Yes sir he is spot on. I’ve got personal experience that conflates with what he has said about party line preaching or the Highway in small town and hamlet churches.
Jack, google up Earl Stallings, and Samford Belltower Award for Exhibit A and get the book there.
As for his example about the mosque, hope he and others look over at baplife.com for the intense discussion there.
Last night Bush 43 speechwriter Gerson on PBS Newshour said Obama has been doing some prophetic preaching in regard the Mosque, though politically may have made some miscues.
What part of Jesus did Newt Gingrich get from his time in IkeReighard’s church in Georgia.
All this calls for another thread as this is indeed serious drift.
I propose monitors here let Jack do a guest blog.
Please do not erase these last four comments as they could be great spur and referencepoint for Jack’s Guest Blog
Jack et al:
The problem this movie review finds with the flatness of the characters is healed in the grand book from Which the Movie is made.
A great example of what a minister with a conscience still faces in small towns; and the book fleshes out family of generational preachers.
And even with the flaws of the movie I hope many of you will rent the DVD. Great scene in there where the Methodist preacher confronts his deacon board; preacher says to the distraught deacons; here’s the Phone, call the Bishop and we can get this thing settled right here.
While Judge Pressler was learing the ropes of the Texas Regulars and Resistance to Brown V Board Carlyle Marney was at FBC, Austin Texas in the 50′s. Deacon’s meetings was called and he faced a powerful man on his board and in the state judiciary.
Both of them were pipe smokers.
Judge said: Carlyle, if you can’t tone it down, we got the Votes.
Marney said: “You got a Light on you.”
Pretty much same year Stewart Newman said in Columbia SC: “WA Criswell doesn’t speak for me.”
Amen
See Lost Traditions chapter in Fisher Humphreys book on SBC, and see Charles Marsh discussion of Doug Hudgins in God’s Long Summer.
Jack knows what he is talking about.
My apologies, the Blood Link
http://movies.nytimes.com/2010/02/19/movies/19blood.html
Well now that everybody’s pretending to play nicely I the sandbox and “oh no we don’t demonize and shout down anyone who disagrees on the need for a national database.” let’s see if we can get some questions answered.
1. Does anyone believe that having a national database with “accusations” against ministers can in no way be used to cause financial harm to the SBC thus taking away Great Commission resources.
2. Who here believes it doesn’t matter what damage is done to the SBC?
3. How on earth do you churches use a database when they are not using the resources currently available.
4. Please post links to those advocating for a database where they have provided information on what churches can do right now to protect their children.
The experts are here now and they should have numerous posts on what can be done right now.
Bess, I think you are right on the mark.
Sometimes I don’t understand all I think I know. This is new territory for me and that’s my excuse and I’m sticking to it. First Step in guarding children on church grounds is to have every church employee and volunteer have a background check that is reasonable. That doesn’t ask how many times you’ve been married or have you or your wife ever defaulted on a loan. If a report came back that someone stole or robbed , someone could decide that this violation has nothing to do with abuse . He /she might take the till but that’s another problem easily handled. Set a time limit and at some point when it’s obvious someone or church is just being obstinate let it drop that their little darlings won’t be getting 50% discount at SBC seminarys etc. Some requirements with some levers need to be in place. I can no longer be , you do it anyway you want , just send some money in and all is forgiven. This is off the top and someone or church has already made this effort and made mistakes. Don’t try to re- invent the wheel. I vision someone from a church calling another church, synagogue, parish or an SBC rep approaching his equal at that level in another denomination saying a mutual problem is shared and since we could run these people back and forth we would appreciate any and all insight or whatever. Another job for an already taxed pastor that doesn’t make enough if he’s any good. Had to get that in there. I’m a hands on guy and not a “star” or have the formal education to facilitate being a “headliner”. Please, Just take out the trash ! A very good friend stood up in his Catholic Church many moons ago and announced he was molested by a priest. This was a large church and this guy is one short capable dude who hasn’t and will not collect any money. Just taking out the trash.
In the call for th SBC to do this or that — however grand or worthy the this or that may be — many fail to understand what the SBC really is. The SBC only exists once a year for a couple of days. It is a body with no power beyond the “power of suggestion.” There is not authority to exercise any control over even one congregation. This is why the SBC is rather unique among so-called denominations.
The only level in which any power can be asserted in SBC Life is at the local, congregational level. To push for a “national anything” will only result in endless blogging that amounts to little more than blathering.
The SBC is not a policing body. Any talk of a national SBC database in regard to any police matter is going to go down in flames. It will be counter productive.
There are already databases that can be accessed. All church insurers I’m aware of provide tons of material on how to safeguard children. So, an “all or nothing police action” sounds a bit like a red herring to me. It suggests that some other “ulterior motive” might be in play, at least in part.
So, we all can go on blogging about a national SBC database and it will only wear out our fingers. What should be done is what CAN be done.
SSBN: As a result of the productive parts of this conversation (we’ve lost it the last few days), I’m convinced a national SBC database is probably not going to work. But I don’t agree that it cannot be done. It certainly can. The SBC provides resources to member churches and there’s no doubt that an offender database could be made available as a resource to churches who wanted access to it. What cannot be done, and this is where I think you are going, is making some type of binding policy regarding the use of such a database. As you point out, due to the nature of the SBC, no policy can be enforced.
I wish the SBC would think about this fact when making resolutions. Seems like a waste of time to me, but that’s another topic.
Christa has given you reasons it could work, others have given you reasons why it could work. It could work. It has to work. It is a necessity along with local churches doing their part. To say that a predator does not move from state to state but stays local is wrong information. That has been proven by a number of predators to be wrong such as Darrel Gilyard and Matt Baker to name two. Now either look at all the evidence or continue to shoot down something that can be done. I find your reasons to be bogus considering we voted to disassociate with churches for much less than child abuse. Where was the “it can’t be done” then? Come on guys. Let’s get real here.
Debbie, I didn’t say anything about Christa not providing reasons it “could” (your word) work.
I just respectfully believe she is wrong. I know that it is hard for you to go against anything the disgruntled, trustee has blessed, but I just think Christa is wrong.
And I’ve never said the things you mention in your post that I have said.
Also, just for your information: disfellowshipping churches (or members) is not done on the national level. Your facts and conclusions along those lines are quite flawed, in my opinion.
And, as much as I’d like to attack you for not agreeing with me, I respect your right to disagree. But, please at least try to be accurate in your accusations.
I do however agree with your last statement: “Let’s get real here.” I hope you will take your advice.
Yea, that’s right, Bill. I’m not even disputing whether a national database is good or bad (in my previous post), though I’m not fully convinced.
My argument is: it has not way to take flight, so why waste time and energy on it. Luke 14 instructs us to be wise in how we go to battle.
I also can see your point about resolutions. They tend to have the same problem as the database. It tends to be more “hype” than anything else.
The SBC is just a peculiar type of organization that does not work “top down” at all. I know the Conventions (two days a year) make it look like it does, but I don’t think it does in any real way.
I just tried to lodge a concern about LifeWay, and its been about 4 weeks with no reply. I’m still working my way through the calling tree
So please tell us in your infinite wisdom not what you think won’t work but what you think WILL WORK. “You can’t get there from here ” is no help towards a solution.
I’ve already given my opinion on what might work on this blog and on another. I’m not sure if you have difficulty hearing, or difficulty listening to any voice but your own shouting bouncing off the walls of your own opinions.
PS — As Edison found out in bringing light to the world, the first step in discovering what “will” work is to first eliminate what “won’t” work.
PSS — Just to set the record straight so nobody attributes your foolish ideas to me: my wisdom is finite; my ignorance is infinite.
Jack, the number one important step for any church is the “two deep”. Rule. Kids should never be alone with and adult in church at any time. This protects children and protects adults from false accusations. You have to create an environment where kids are not alone with adults.
You can also make the children’s areas as open as possible. Windows in doors are walls of kids rooms.
Video survellience would be great and is not as expensive as it used to be.
The list goes on and on. If your church can’t come up with ideas on it’s own you could seek help from a larger church which has and administrators. Part of church administrators job is putting together comprensive childcare and youth policies.
Go to your local police who have experts who may be willing to come to your church and talk with parents on how to help keep your kids safe. They do this for schools all the time.
Go to your State Convention’s website and there are probably tips for churches. The SBC website has a page with tips. Go to the insurance company which insures your church for ideas.
There are lot’s of ideas and lot’s of resources. It is a myth that baptist are ignoring this issue.
Bess, excellent post. I’ll reiterate what I’ve said before: stop arguing about a database that won’t work and start implementing a plan that does work.
SSBN, this issue is incredibley frustrating to me as someone who as worked with several congregations on this very issue. To see it highjacked by people whose agenda is very clearly antiSBCErs makes me more than a little angry. They think ranting on the Internet about a database that isn’t going to happen is somehow saving children. Some of us want to prevent children from ever being harmed. By the time a name reaches a database a child has already been harmed.
CB has already pegged the problem with database pushers: it’s allo about them, not any supposed persons they may help.
I understand your frustration because this is a people problem. It is not a policy problem. It is a thorny, multi-headed beast that presents a terrible situation for all involved. As a people problem, it can only be solved by a personal approach.
SSBN, I’m glad they are being exposed and showing their hearts. It’s very disturbing to watch people who are so disturbed try to distort and twist what is a very important and emotional issue for many in the SBC.
Doesn’t look like anyone is going to answer the questions I’ve post which is an answer in itself.
Still waiting for those links for how to help churches…..
If it’s a myth that Baptists are ignoring this issue, except for a few churches, why is the number of kids who are victims of sexual abuse still so high and still happening? Ministers are still being arrested in the Baptist church for sexual abuse. Why is that if Baptists are not ignoring it Bess. The facts tell a different story than what you are.
Debbie,
If “more” people are being arrested, then someone is not “ignoring the issue.”
If “less” people were being arrested, that would be proof that someone is “ignoring the issue.”
The facts are that more people are taking accountability. Therefore more people are being arrested. Those are the facts.
CB: So after the child has already been damaged for life and the person is arrested that is good enough for you? You have got to be kidding here. We need to make sure no child suffers again in the Southern Baptist church. Not after the fact. It is a fact that a perpetrator has not just molested one child. The number of each child the perpetrator molests is in the double digits. Times that with how many ministers have just recently been arrested just among Southern Baptists. No, that is just not acceptable. Not considering the trauma a child endures well into adult life and beyond that. So much so that they have Post Traumatic Stress Syndrome. How many dysfunctional children and adults are going to be enough for us to do something? There are too many now. Nope, not near good enough.
“So after the child has already been damaged for life and the person is arrested that is good enough for you?”
No Debbie, thus far an arrest has not been “good enough” for me. But you have determined not to believe me if I told you what I have done or what was good enough so I will leave you with it and continue to do what I can, knowing nothing is actually “good enough” in such a situation.
QUOTE why is the number of kids who are victims of sexual abuse still so high and still happening? END QUOTE
Because persons like yourself demand following a path that has no reasonable chance of helping anybody and you avoid even discussing Bess’s “real world” solutions.
As CB pointed out, it makes it look like your side has an ulterior motive other than actually protecting any children.
And Jack the experts have graced us with their prescence here on thi blog so any minute now they will be providing us with links as to how churches can protect children today. They’ve been working on this stuff for years! So any minute those links are going to show. I’m sure thet got some great ideas. Just wait. Any minute…..
Bess: Go to Christa’s blog which you have been pointed to many times and you will get lots of information. Local and national databases the one thing Christa has been fighting for and people like yourself keep ignoring. I would say you yourself are ignoring the problem. And all out of hate for those who have simply given the facts of how the SBC has ignored this problem and not just ignored it but downplayed it. I see no proof that you have given that refutes that evidence. A lot of hot air from you but no evidence. Frankly that makes me angry.
In fact Bess I would go so far as to say it is your type of mindset and people like you that I am against. Not to remove you from SB churches, but to get changes done. To get attitudes changes. I don’t call that destroying but building. Making us what we claim to be Bought in the blood, Holy Spirit changed Christians who want holiness and justice. Who are willing to see the ugliness in the SBC, of which we are just as guilty of being, and changing it, not saying it isn’t there. That is lying to yourself and to others. And remember what happened to Anninias and Saphira when they didn’t see their sin. I dont’ want that to happen to the SBC, but more I don’t want one more child to become the victim of sexual abuse. Either by clergy or layman in the church. The church shouldn’t be a bed for sin, but a place of safety and comfort. We are not that. Not by a longshot.
Debbie, Explain to me how a database will end child abuse?
It will give another source in which to check backgrounds.
What can a SBC database do that other databases cannot do? We do not need a database, we already have them to use.
What could it do that other databases couldn’t? Point fingers at folks associated with the CR and Patterson. For Cough-man, that’s all this is really about.
These databases have a lot to be desired. Most pedophiles do not have a criminal record and would not be found in these sources and certainly would not have many Southern Baptist clergy listed. By keeping a data base just for Southern Baptists it would keep the minister/worker from being able to go from church to church and state to state as they are able to do now. I believe I gave a link earlier on Christa’s site that told the benefits of a data base. The SBC does know where these ministers go, so in essence they already have the information to put on a national data base, they just have to set it up and do it. They do keep track of where these ministers go and have been.
Christa found out that the Baptist General Convention of Texas has kept track of all sexual clergy predators, but keep it private. Only they know who the predators are and it is not available to the public. So it’s not a matter of doing anything but making the information they already have public. Christa has also been keeping track and has names that could be placed in a data base right now. So it could be set up rather quickly. Names not on the national database.
“Christa has also been keeping track and has names that could be placed in a data base right now.”
Debbie,
Do you really believe that the SBC would give Christa Brown an authority to “place names” in a data base on her own word?
Debbie, that is not going to happen. Do you think it should happen?
Debbie, all the evidence anybody needs as to what you and Christa’s agenda has been shown over and over. No Debbie neither you nor Christa have offered anything but your ‘only a database will do”. Your refusal to answer the questions regarding potential damege to the SBC and the fact that you don’t have links that offer any suggestions which don’t include a national database show your heart. Your motives are very clear and your response are becoming more and more irrational. I think everybody but your usual crew gets that this is just another one of your let’s destroy all things SBC crusades. You are truly a sick depraved person to highjacked this issue. I think everyone should just let ignore you from this point forward. If it’s by your fruit your known your fruit is rotten to it’s core.
Bess, hypothetical situation: suppose somehow we end up with a national database. Suppose ERRONEOUSLY some poor pastor’s name ended up on it, though it was corrected later.
I wonder what hell that pastor might go through if Debbie or Christa got a hold of such a name?
That’s a scary thought for me.
My problem is not with the database itself, per se, but with the obvious ulterior motive of those proposing it. If sin brings down the SBC — I say “Let it fall and loud be the crash of it.” I’m just not comfortable with the two ladies having access to the wrecking ball.
SSBN, they’ve already got names they’d like to put on the list – being as they have established themselves as experts. Does the name Tawana Brawley ring a bell? I find that the debate in the SBC paralles the political debate currently going on. There are those who hate this country and think nothing has ever been right about it so it must be dismantled and changed completely. That’s the SBC haters – the SBC is evil, has always been evil and must be destroyed and remade by these “experts”.
Because there will be no damage to the SBC.
Bess, your reaction puzzles me It seems you wish to discredit the messenger here, which is a well known tactic. But puzzling. Children are at risk here yet you call me all kinds of crazy names for what? Giving the facts? It seems it is not I who is the disturbed one. And your words make no sense. Again what payoff do I have? Destroying the SBC how? I wish to make it better. I truly do not understand you.
SSBN: There would be no innocent ministers on and the details would have to be worked out as you do have a legitimate point. But, the criteria for being on this national database would have to be laid out. It could however be worked out. It would not be hard.
The fact of the matter is Debbie doesn’t care JACK about truth and certainly not biblical truth. She cares about taking down people who are on the opposite side of the tehological spectrum from her. Proof? Name one moderate or liberal theologian she has ponted a finger at regarding child molestation. That’s right, there have been zero. Name one time she twisted her mustached upper lip in a sneer bellowing about the systemic abuse in the Catholic Church. Not even one of her whiskers has twitched even once. Now, we know it’s happened in the Catholic Church and you will never convince me that it has only happened in churches friendly to and affiliated with the Conservative Resurrgence–it has to have happened in moderate type churches as well. Therefore, her silence on those two fronts is iron clad proof that Cough-man has an agenda.
Debbie if descrediting the messenger seems to familiar it’s because you are trying the tactic yourself here and failing miserably.
Joe, maybe you know – is Debbie really this dumb, insane or just plain ol evil. No we don’t live in a litigeous society at all and a mistake on a database could never ever ever lead to a lawsuit. Yes that’s right Debbie. Please by all means keep posting the insanity. Lawyers who’ve discussed this situation like ol Louis up there know nothing about lawsuits or wait I the lawyers are now evil too.
Joe: Your just up in arms because I made a post out of your spam comments. You seemed to want to be heard so badly I gave you the platform. You were spitting nails before that and have been since. I care. I have children, grandchildren. I am a woman who was once a girl. Sexual harrassment was not against the law in the 70′s. There were no laws against sexual abuse done by relatives. There was no protection for the woman against sexual advances, jokes, or date rape. It wasn’t against the law. Believe me I care. It’s 2010. Every denomination including the Roman Catholics have done something about this horrible crime against children but Southern Baptists. It’s not enough to do it on a local level, although doing it on a local level will help. It is also happening in our Christian colleges. It has to be done locally, and Bob Cleavland had some good suggestions as to what his church is doing. But it’s not enough. It has to also be on a national level. The SBC must take a hard stand against our children being raped by clergy, laymen. We have not done so. We stand tall on homosexuality and other people’s sins, but have a hard time when our own are pointed out. You and Bess, and even CB are evidence of that. That is why I also wrote on the reactions of Paige Patterson, Frank Page, other leaders. It was a wrong reaction and tells our children they don’t matter because it’s too personal. It shows our sin of complacency and we don’t want our sins shown before the world. Show other churches sin, but not the SBC. That is bologna.
Seriously, anyone who has read anything on this issue has to see that Debbie has zero crediability if she can say with a straight face ” a database is easy and it won’t harm the SBC at all.”. Gosh attacking just ain’t getting the job done this time is it. Debbie with every character you type you show that you care nothing for children.
In the meantime while there is no database today what are Debbie and crew doing about this issues. That’s right that would be nothing but attacking everyone who disagrees with a database. Oh but Christa’s got statistics and lots of conspiracy stories. That really helps churches today doesn’t it? cause they care so much.
“There would be no innocent ministers on and the details would have to be worked out….”
Debbie,
Our American judicial system is supposed to prevent any innocent man from receiving the death penalty and being executed.
Nonetheless, as you know, it has happened, more than a few times.
What would guarantee an innocent man would not be put on a data base in the SBC? As you have often pointed out, we do make mistakes in the SBC. What would stop us with the data base?
Bess: I will no longer be conversing with you. I don’t know what your problem is, well I do know….and it’s beyond being able to reason. All of this trash talk over wanting a database to protect our children from sexual predators? You have a mentality that I pray is not present among Southern Baptists and yes I do question where you are spiritually unless you can go to the Bible and prove to me with scripture and verse how your words, actions, mentality are in any way associated with a Christian. I don’t see it. In other words they are not and I think you and Joe both need the Gospel given to you as much as any lost person does.
CB: You have asked a very good question as has SSBN. These are details that I think need to be discussed and discussed long and hard to work the details out on. I am not an expert on how this can be done. I would not want one innocent person to be on the data list. Christa has some good ideas that we could begin to build on as well as others with good ideas among the Southern Baptist community. I agree with you that could be a possibility and one we want to avoid while protecting our children. One is as important as the other.
Debbie thank you we have just had an incredible laugh at your expense. I showed my husband your “a database is easy and nobody innocent would ever make it to the database and there is no way the SBC could ever be harmed.”. Then we showed the lawyer neighbor in the yard behind ours and his response was Not exactly a sharp tool is she? Seriously, Debbie this so good that you should go to your place and do a whole blog post. “it’s so easy you guys!”. We’re imaging you with a valley girl accent twisting your hair – it’s so easy you guys! Nothing bad will happen! Totally!
I gotta go hubby and neighbor are killing me with the valley girl stuff. I think this conversations has just wandered off to la la land. Thanks for that great laugh Debbie.
“It has to be done locally, and Bob Cleavland had some good suggestions as to what his church is doing.”
Debbie,
You believe Bob, and you are right to do so. I know he is telling the truth about his church.
Yet, you do not believe one word I am telling you, yet if you asked Bob, he would tell you I am being truthful. What makes it different for you? How do you decide who is telling the truth? Is it if you like them or not?
Gene Scarborough deserves a place on Christa’s post about those who are light on abusers? Did you read how he handled an abusive situation in his church? Why do you bask Patterson and let Gene off? How do you determine who to castigate and who to let slide?
Actually, Bess, I hear her as less of a Valley Girl but more of a Selma (Marge Simpson’s sister) complete with her hair forearms and upper lip. She’s not even a joke. She’s like the punchline.
yes I do question where you are spiritually unless you can go to the Bible and prove to me with scripture and verse how your words, actions, mentality are in any way associated with a Christian
Um, pot/kettle?
I am a woman who was once a girl.
Really?? Wow, I never would have guessed that. I thought little girls grew up to be oak trees. You mean little girls grow up to be women? Seriously?? If you hadn’t said that I never would have guessed.
Of course, after looking at your profile picture I can understand why you choose to spell that out.
Joe,
Even a dog of war like me sees the “profile” statement as over the line.
Oh and another thing that’s goinna really confuse Debs is I’m not in the same time zone as the blog time stamp.
And Joe you know Debbie and Christa have shown such charity and grace to all in the blogasphere. That why they have such great reputations.
Marge Simpson probably fits with ol Wade’s picture of Debbie I saw him describe her as “a trucker’s wife”. Nothing against truckers God bless em but what does it say about Debbie when her own pastor’s first descriptive thought is “she’s a trucker’s wife”
Bess,
Actually, it says more about the pastor than it does Debbie. And I know Debbie can be without mercy in her attacks, but I feel that this is going too far and way overly aggressive toward her in what you and Joe are saying in te last few comments.
I realize I can be rather heartless and cold blooded. But I think you and Joe are probably far better and extremely more civilized people than me and it kinda bothers me to see people I see as superior to me enlisting my very own short comings, even though momentarily.
Let her off the rack if you would. I have known Debbie a long time and I know you have hurt her. So I am asking you to let her go tonight.
Besides, we all know she will be back at a later time loaded for bear, but I think she has had enough tonight.
Bess: BTW I reply to you because it’s better than carrying it around inside and staying angry at you. You are spouting useless insults that frankly get under my skin and you know this. It’s why you do it. It’s not me who doesn’t care about children or you wouldn’t be fighting this so bad. You don’t know me yet you hate me. Why? Because I want the SBC to be better, holy, safe, a safe place for people to be able to go to and tell when they have been sexually abused. Tell when they know someone is lying about their past without being stoned. You prefer to stone, I prefer to clean house. That would indeed include people like you and Joe, who is not even SB. Joe left a long time ago but loves to be evil. I believe your words to be evil as well. It needs to be out of the SBC out of our churches. So yes, I would fight against people such as you having any voice in the SBC. You bet. Or any spot in leadership. Evil has no place where Christ is. Christ is the opposite of evil and would in no way talk or condone your mindset or speech. There is evil in our midst and I want it gone. I want a place where people are safe to speak Safe to learn. Without being made to be something they are not. And you dear lady, are one of the things I am fighting against. Ask reasonable questions, I will answer. Have reasonable statements, I will respond in kind. But as to your evil tongue, I hope that you are convicted and change. If not I would like it if you would leave our churches. Evil is no longer welcome here.
Debbie, What database do educator’s use to check back grounds?
To my knowledge they use the National data base. It’s interesting that you ask that question because the Washington Post had a article on this just last month entitled Despite State’s efforts…detailing how the national data base failed as well. So it is not a reliable source. A Southern Baptist national data base I believe would be more reliable. We keep track of them anyway, it’s just not made public. Here is the Washington Post article.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/07/24/AR2010072402589.html
A Southern Baptist national data base I believe would be more reliable.
Oh, and of course you can PROVE that?? No, Cough-man don’t need no stinkin’ proof. If it comes out of the Cough-man’s mouth it MUST be true.
Debbie, Why do you think the SBC database would be better?
Bess: I am very proud that Wade described me in such a way. That is what I am and so proud of it I could burst. I couldn’t do what I do without my husband’s support. Which I have in spades. So please label me a trucker’s wife, it’s the best compliment I could be given.
Debbie, you are a what my granny used to describe as a hot mess. I’m evil because I’ve pointed out the ridiculousness of your views? The truth hurts Debbie. The truth hurts. You think that changing your tack from “you evil people how dare you want to protect the SBC from harm.” “oh no a database can’t be used to harm the SBC. Christa is an expert and a lawyer! And can give a completely unbiased legal opinion!”. Debbie it’s on your blog and it’s on Christa’s and you previously shot down anyone who (in that wonderful Christ-like manner) demonizing those who think protecting the SBC is important and can be done along with protecting our children. Changing your tact now shows that you’ve lost but you are so full of pride in yourself and you are so worshipful of Christa that you refuse to admit “yeah a database may harm the SBC.” You are so full if yourself that you just can’t see how ridiculous you look saying “no harm can come to the SBC”. And then there’s the fact that you and Christa have done nothing but rant about a database and attack anyone who trys to suggest ways to help churches right now. No matter how much she tries to deny it Christa Brown has a reputation as her databse or nothing.
Truck Drivers are honorable hardworking peope who’s jobs have gotten considerabley harder over these last years. No shame this year. It’s just curious that egalitarins would think that descibing a woman based on who her husband is would be a little inconsistent with egalitarian views, but Debbie if there is one thing consistent abou you it’s your inconsistency.
Debbie, So you want a database of people who have not been convicted of a crime in a court of law? Is what Christa and you want? If is so, what would be the standard by which a person is placed on the database? Who would determine if they are guilty?
Yes I do. It wouldn’t be the church who would determine they are guilty, it would be a police investigation. There are many out there now who are guilty but have not been brought to trial. They have not even been reported, but they are guilty. They have admitted to it yet are still in the churches and pulpits. Darrel Gilyard was in a pulpit preaching right up until his arrest.
Really? Funny, I always thought guilt or innocence was determined by a TRIAL not a police investigation. Ever take a class called “Civics”?
Really, someone seriously needs to blow in your ear and give you a refill.
Debbie, I cannot go long with putting people on a database who have not been convicted. I cannot believe a lawyer would want to have a database of people who have not have their day in court.
Jeff,
You’re talking about logic and facts. Cough-man doesn’t do those. She doesn’t think–she feels.
Jeff: If you do not put people’s names on their who were not found guilty in a court of law you are going to end up with sexual predators in your church by the bucketful. In the 70′s or even 80′s ministers were not turned over to the law but like the SBC were sent from church to church. Christa Brown’s predator was one, Darrel Gilyard was one, Matt Baker was one. All had complaints against them. Credible complaints. One murdered his wife, as well as molested many women, Darrel Gilyard sexually molested and raped 47 women that we know of before his arrest 20 years later.
An SBC data base is more accurate because as the Baptist General Convention admitted, they have record of all the ministers with written charges against them, those not turned over to the law, and they know where they are. It is not made public. If Christa Brown can keep track of all of them or most of them, why in the world can’t the most powerful Protestant denomination with money and many talents in our denomination do so. We can.
Debbie,
So you really would put someone on the data base who had not been found guilty by a judicial action of the court?
Debbie, if we did do such a thing, there are people who would get themselves put on it by deception so they could sue the SBC for an untold amount of money. They would not care about their reputation. They would laugh all the way to the bank.
There are some truly evil people in this world Debbie, and many of them are extremely smart and cunning. Obviously, you have not really met such people as I reference yet. But you will, if we establish such a data base as you seem to suggest.
Debbie, if you are going to include any and all accusations on the database, you can certainly guarantee that you will only develop more opposition and an idea with a ‘slim’ to “none” chance of seeing success will have less than none.
Debbie,
Why are you and Christa silent on the fact that Gene Scarborough should have already won himself a place on Christa’s wall of shame?
Bess: You did all of this so late at night? Somehow I smell some story telling. Yes, it is that easy with some tweaks.
BTW Christa Brown herself is a attorney.
For a list of some of these preachers/workers you can find them on Christa Brown’s website.
Oh Debbie you poor dear. You weren’t supposed to talk to me anymore. I guess they don’t have back to school pool parties in Enid. Or is it the electric light you don’t understand? Or maybe netbooks with wireless Internet service. Enid’s pretty primitive huh? “everything’s up to date in Kansas City…..”.
Bess: BTW I reply to you because it’s better than carrying it around inside and staying angry at you. You are spouting useless insults that frankly get under my skin and you know this. It’s why you do it. It’s not me who doesn’t care about children or you wouldn’t be fighting this so bad. You don’t know me yet you hate me. Why? Because I want the SBC to be better, holy, safe, a safe place for people to be able to go to and tell when they have been sexually abused. Tell when they know someone is lying about their past without being stoned. You prefer to stone, I prefer to clean house. That would indeed include people like you and Joe, who is not even SB. Joe left a long time ago but loves to be evil. I believe your words to be evil as well. It needs to be out of the SBC out of our churches. So yes, I would fight against people such as you having any voice in the SBC. You bet. Or any spot in leadership. Evil has no place where Christ is. Christ is the opposite of evil and would in no way talk or condone your mindset or speech. There is evil in our midst and I want it gone. I want a place where people are safe to speak Safe to learn. Without being made to be something they are not. And you dear lady, are one of the things I am fighting against. Ask reasonable questions, I will answer. Have reasonable statements, I will respond in kind. But as to your evil tongue, I hope that you are convicted and change. If not I would like it if you would leave our churches. Evil is no longer welcome here.
CB: I didn’t say just anyone who is accused. I really wish you would read my comment, or maybe I am not communicating effectively. This has to be credibly accused. It seems you are shooting down a need without even reading what I write or helping to think things through. Many predators are still active in the SB churches and have not been turned in or through the court system. They are guilty. Their former church, victims, know it. But they have not been prosecuted. This is because the time to prosecute them has run out. Their is a statute of limitation, which I believe is ten years from the time the crime is committed. Sometimes it takes longer for the victims to come forward for various reasons. The statute of limitations is up. They are not prosecuted although still a danger. They must be on this list.
Debbie: Have you and Christa Brown done a careful viewing of the PBS Frontline Documentary on the Little Rascals Daycare Center in NC.
I think I posted a link in the first five comments in this discussion.
Would like to know what you think about that. To that degree some of your detractors here like Louis and CB Scott have a point.
Debbie, if the database is as you describe, I cannot support it. In fact if it is every brought to a vote, I will have to vote no because I do not support a database where one has not been convicted in a court of law.
Stephen: I did not see the link and what point would you be talking about? Could you be specific?
Bess: Please don’t turn this around to you being the victim, you are far from it. I have no problem with you disagreeing, I do have a problem with you not discussing this like a human being. I’m far from a mess, but I am human and can only take so much garbage and lady you have slung plenty of that. That is what is evil, not your disagreeing so get off of that train. Act civilized and we can talk.
Gene Scarbourgh – I like that you have been there and put that sign in file 13 that was telling people of color to go somewhere else. A short story which I may be accused of breaking my elbow patting myself on the back but the intent is show what a difference can be made if you take a chance and that God just might reward you for an honest effort. Lt. Earl in the D.C. police department was a WWII paratrooper who had jumped on the island of Corregidor(sp) then joined the P.D. and was a Shriner and active in the Shrine Motor Corp. I was active in that body also which is how I knew of him. I was also parachuting then in civilian life which gave us somthing else in common. Lt. Earl’s brother was shot and killed by a black robber trying to escape. Lt. Earl was predjudice.The absolute best motorcycle mechanic my Father had in his shop was Willie who was black. Wore eyeglasses, had a nice son and wife and helped me the klutz get somthing done. When the store was being sold by my Mother before Harley itself sold out, Willie got himself a job at D,C. police dept and they came down on him hard. Everybody that’s new to some workplace has to pay their dues but this was heavy verbal abuse but what he found most difficult was a constant diet of changing flat tires which on a motorcycle requires effort. He needed his job. I had to visit down at his place and Willie an older man wouldn’t look at me when I hollard over to him. While almost all Harley riders share a commonality , My friend Willie was being killed. He was going to have a heart attack. I called Lt. Earl in Headquarters and asked if I could see him and I went over and told him I needed a special , favor . A huge favor. I asked him to get the monkey off Willie’s back- a black man. Lt. Earl did that thing as a big man would and sometime after asked if I would like to join the force. I begged off and said I wanted to fly. A Captain Ed who was a Harley rider and a good Catholic was instumental in making things work out for me flying. What goes around , comes around. Wonder how long this is ? A lot of really good men in this story one of which was Willie. Story about taking trophys to a black “outlaw” track is funny and getting off the crew bus in uniform and seeing Jeanie, one of DC’s “motorcycle Moma’s” and putting an arm around her made everybody’s eyes bug out. Her feelings would have been hurt had I done otherwise and SSBN wants me to beat up some “biker dude”
Jack, you are the one that commented how you are “no cream puff” and you were the one talking about “kicking butt.”
I’m sorry that looking in the mirror is a painful experience for you ;0
If it is any comfort, the mirror isn’t always my favorite fixture.
Now for the rest of the story. My son a graduate of an SBC seminary and prior to that a University graduate in English Education has recently experienced much of what I’ve related. Didn’t tell you about the NEO Nasis stuffing mailboxes on Thur. & Fri, before O’bama’s Inaugoral on Tues which was after MLK Day on Monday which was after Sunday that my kid made a sermon out of MLK’s ” I have a Dream ” speech. They took a vote to get brid of him , lost paid him off and he resigned taking many with him. They’ve spiked him again because he wouldn;t turn over control of his new church funds to their management and many have just left , but better now than three years from now when he has really built up a church with God’s blessing. I’m prejudice but this boy can speak and preach and his morals are stronger than mine. He married in the last six months to a flight attendent just like I did years ago and “begot him” Before he started seminary I asked him if he was sincere because the public would spot a phoney in a heart beat. We’ve hunted a lot in the past and that’s a clue for any person that would actually try and harm him and there have been threats. He’s a busy boy with much to be proud of. I’ve actually been more “afraid” of people on this blog for him than any neo nazsis, motorcycle bum or schizo. I guess I understand them and will now back out of the public spector- mostly for his benefit. Say a prayer for him as he asked me to and for all the children, and women who are targeted and I hope that SSBN finds a job that keeps him busy. Ta Ta.
Jack, you keep talking about “bikers.” I’m just curious: have you ever hung out around them (not with them because you are not a member)? You talk really brave and like you smell of leather, but I’m wondering if you have ever really had that experience.
You would not make some of the statements you do if you really ever had ministry to outlaw bikers. That’s a wide open ministry if you ever really what to invest in a Harley and start riding.
PS–and Jack, before you ask: yes I have been around outlaw bikers. I actually lived for a time across the street from a chapter headquarters. My best friend is a recovering “biker.” He has broken every bone in his body and was the hardest drinker and smoker and cusser and the list goes on.
You know, when I was a girl, someone gave the nuns at the convent in our parish a motorcycle-with-a-side-car.
And when they were out on the road,
EVERYONE got out of their way.
Now that’s scary!
Well, what once seemed to be a productive conversation has clearly taken a turn for the worse. One might think that a few of y’all would take the Lord’s Day to cease and desist for a hot minute or two on the nastiness towards one another.
For the sake of those who own and operate the blog here and those who enjoy a good Baptist dialogue from time to time, a few folks here probably would be well served to learn how to either A) Ignore one another or B) pretend to not hate one another.
A couple more things:
Gene Scarborough is…I really don’t know. He’s a bit off. He just doesn’t get it. He’s told that same story here and on others blogs multiple times. He’s been chastised severely by many including Christa Brown. Why he thinks he has any moral authority on this issue, I don’t know.
I’m glad to see D.R. Randle jump in this discussion. He’s a thinker – very smart guy who is now near my alma mater in the Athens area.
I’ve long thought that a database is do-able; that a database could emerge after serious discussion which could avoid legal hangups. Obviously, there are legal concerns that would have to be addressed. There are also probably other reasons that the Exec Committee did not take too seriously the database recommendation in addition to legal issues. PR-related reasons.
Let’s also keep in mind that advocates and lawyers play different roles. I don’t think, in most cases, a person can play both advocate and lawyer at the same time.
BDW–
Those are some strong things you allegate. Let me set the record straight.
The only time Christa and I have been at odds is over a case in Hertford, NC, where a camp director for children was accused of inappopriate touching of a child. Since there were numerous people who knew him saying, “He’s just not that way,” I cautioned her about being too quick to judge and it would be wise to back off until the investigation was completed.
She took exception to my warning that a lawsuit for defamation of character could result / that would not be pretty ? it could be costly. Our Bibilcal Recorder Editor, Norman Jameson was on her bad side as well for not siding against the man.
To make a long story short, the man committed suicide a couple of months ago and the case will never be resolved nor heard. Mr. Jameson reported it every inch of the way with NO COVER UP!
Outside of that ONE incident Christ and I are on the exact same page and I forgive her for the hard feelings. My own wife suffered from clegy abuse. I am a contributor to her ministry several years ago. I am still her friend and I suspect she will come around to forgive me. I have certainly forgiven her long ago!
Capiche???????
You still just do not have a clue do you Gene?
DebbieK:
Go to Comment 2, Two; there it is the link,in comment Two of this stream, abut 277 back.
Stephen I clicked on the link and all I saw was a poster, but from that poster I gather you are speaking of innocents being accused. While that should be a concern, it should not trump the needs of those who are abused which are many. Children cannot speak for themselves, they defend themselves, and that should be of more concern than the remote possibility of someone innocent getting accused. That hasn’t happened so far among those pastors who have been accused. All have been guilty. Not one, to my knowledge, has been falsely accused. This type of thinking also gets in the way of churches making it a safe place for victims of sexual clergy abuse to come forward. I see that this is the argument, which means we think more of saving our own skin than those of the children. It’s a bigger fear than the concern for the safety of our children. It’s why I believe this database was stopped in 2008.
As I said, we would have to work out the details so this will not happen, but even without a database this has not happened. No uncredible accusations have been made. Meanwhile, I have shown you more arrests in July and as recent as a week or two ago. That should be more of a concern. As Christa pointed out we can begin right now by making churches a safe place for victims to report the crime, police to be called, and an outreach program with counseling for the victim.
Debbie: Come on Hon, if you can break the Caner thing wide open you certainly can navigate a website.
Clickon the Join the Discussion option there, even the Video.
Site is loaded with Info you and Christa Brown need to master.
Debbie, what about the pastor’s children and wife who suffer because of false accusations?
How do you know no uncredible accusations have been made? Who has judged them credible or uncredible?
The law.
So now we get to the heart of the dissension on this. Supposed false accusations. Not the victims in this case, but watching out for yourselves, putting the children second. Has there been one case in the Southern Baptist realm or the RCC realm that has been shown to be false? None that I know of. Not one false accusation in all the hundreds and hundreds of cases.
So you are telling me EVERYTHING on Christa’s blog has been verified by the law and that the person has been convicted in a court of law. A police investigation does not prove guilty.
Jeff T,
What do you want?
Pictures and multiple witnesses of the perpetrator in the act against the victim?
Or do we go with the secular percentage that 90+% of all accusations are true? It’s sickening that we’ll put the reputation of one man ahead of the protection of usually multiple victims. Odds are the accused probably put themselves in an awkward position by not protecting himself by having other people present in the first place. In the Boy Scouts, it’s on you to protect yourself from any appearance and opportunity for someone to accused you of impropriety.
Then again, it’s easier to teach a congregation to protect the leader than protect their own congregants and children, despite passage concerning children and millstones. Stupid congregations protect malicious pastors.
However, most pastors don’t seem inclined to educate congregations anyway.
I am saying that all and I do mean all information on Christa’s site is verifiable and true. She and others have done their homework well. If they can do it, we the biggest protestant denomination in the world should certainly be able to do it. They have less money, less people, but are able to pull it off and keep track of SB ministers who should be on that national data base. Her site is trustworthy 100%. Yes, that is what I am saying.
Let me ask you all something. Which would reflect Christ to a child who is the victim of sexual clergy abuse? To try and protect the minister or clergy while the investigation is going on, keeping him in the pulpit, telling him he is a “man of God” and “truly a blessing” or to be immediately removed from ministry anywhere while an investigation is going on? So far we have done the former.
Which would reflect Christ to a child who is the victim of sexual clergy abuse, to embrace the predator, even until the investigation is over, offer him counseling, prayer, while letting the child fend for him or herself, no one reaching out to him. So far we have done the former. And almost every victim has either lost God thinking he has abandoned them, committed suicide, same reason, or done as Christa is doing in trying to get some help, some awareness to the victim. This isn’t a game, this is real life. And people are losing their faith because of responses they get like those from Bess and some others. So which would give Christ to a child who is a victim?
No Debbie this isn’t a game and it’s because you and Christa have been exposed as the frauds that you are that people lose faith. You are Christa to help churches today and that has cleary been exposed. Anytime Debbie gets challenged she thinks she can pull out the “your evil and I’m. An incredible Christian who only wants to do away with sin in the SBC and I am so Hoooooly.”. That she can just shut off the debate. It ain’t working anymore than playing the victim card is working. When Debbie gets bested in any debate she will always resort to her alleged great Christian heart. And Debbie men falsely accused are victims and a false accusation can destroy a man’s family, career and life.
Bess, is there anything IN PARTICULAR that Christa has reported that you take issue with?
You are speaking in generalities.
Could you not cool the rhetoric and focus on a quotation from Christa’s blog that you disagree with, and tell why, and then it can actually BE DISCUSSED in a mature manner.
Christiane,
I don’t know if you have ever visited the site but Christa says unequivocally that her the information is not always “accurate.” I think on a site like this, “accurate” ought to be a minimum requirement.
Remember, these are her words, not mine.
I don’t think such an issue is something that should be left to suspicions, innuendo, and outright inaccurate information.
For example, there is one statement on the first page that is a third party (hearsay) quote used to draw a global conclusion. This works against the implementation of any large-scale endeavor.
Still best to quote any section that needs to be discussed specifically.
Otherwise, not a lot of progress can be made that is focused on content.
Debbie, you said in an above post that ALL the information on Christa’s website is verifiable and true. So, I looked up the website (which by the way, only argues against abouse from “Baptist” ministers. I’m not sure why only “Baptist” ministers, but that is the focus of this site).
Before I had reached the end of page one, I found information that is definitely not “verifiable” and probably NOT even true.
Just for the record, innuendo based upon “credible accusation” is far from “fact.” Other information doesn’t even rise to the level of “credible,” and I only read to the end of the first page.
I don’t dispute that some evidence might be credible, but how can anything be trusted if it is not “innerant” in parts? Without making personal judgments, I have some real problems with generalizations and suspicions being represented as facts.
Take for example a glass of water that only has a little bit of poison — would one take the chance and drink it? I think this is an issue that is in the minds of others beside myself. I also think it is a “bias” that hinders any real progress in this area.
To allow a little bit of harm to do a little bit of good does not seem to me to be the “best” approach to the matter.
PS — I guess I should have read a little further. The website itself does not claim to provide accurate information.
QUOTE we do not make any guarantee about the accuracy of the information END QUOTE
I pretty much guarantee it. I have checked the information as far as I can and so far have found no inaccuracies.
Debbie, then I’ll say it again: there is at least one absolute inaccurate statement on the home page.
Also, there is the statement I posted that admits to the lack of accuracy in the information provided — THAT IS HER WORDS, NOT MINE.
Believe what you want to believe, but you have zero credibility with me if you fail to see the glaring inaccuracies or the acknowledment of the same.
Credibility goes out the window if you defend the indefensible.
By the way: I’m not saying “all information” is inaccurate. You refused to answer the question of: how can one know what is accurate and what is not if the website admits that all information may NOT be accurate? I’d be willing to entertain your defense of the website should you choose to answer the question directly. I promise to consider your answer fairly.
SSBN,
Ergun Caner defense much?
Defending the indefensible…
HAHAHA!!!!
Bess: Hopefully I am holy. More holy than I was 5 years ago, more holy than I was 10 years ago. We are to be made in the image of Christ, and I long for that. Being in the image of Christ according to the Bible is to love what God loves and hate what God hates. Do you think God is pleased with our response to clergy sexual abuse? I don’t think so, not reading how he feels about children. So yes I pray that I am more holy than this. I want to be. I do not want one more child to suffer for the rest of his life. I think what amazes me most is that stories from victims, stories of a life shattered due to abuse of power, being victimized all over again by the very ones(Christians) who are supposed to love justice, not want one child hurt, is not moved by one story, is not touched by one victim,offers no help, just tears down the messenger, which is an old tactic.
I’ll tell you what Bess, I think in the five years I have seen the dark side of Southern Baptists, that has been more of a shock to me than anything. We are deep in sin in several areas, this being one. The world turned us off a long time ago, they see what I am just now seeing. The fact that it doesn’t seem to bother you that victims have turned away from God because it is just too painful, they feel God has abandoned them, when it wasn’t he that abandoned them, but us, their faith shattered, perhaps forever, should give us pause. But it doesn’t seem to do that to you and I wonder why.
QUOTE We are deep in sin END QUOTE
Debbie,
I don’t dispute that I am a sinner and but for the grace of God I’d be bound for hell. I don’t dispute that I could always do better in my Christian life.
I do dispute that you have ANY right to make me a part of your “we” in regard to sexual abuse or any sexual cover-up or any “deep denominational sin of any kind.” As I often tell people who want to include me in their personal vendettas by using the word, “we,” — unless you have a mouse in your pocket, don’t use we.
I don’t expect an apology. I just will add my opinion to your post to keep some balance in the blogosphere. I know you have formulated your opinions as to who I am and what I think, so I don’t intend to change your mind.
But, I definitely am not a part of the “deep in sin” areas you include yourself in.
Debbie again you pull the “you don’t care about kids and you want to protect abusers” attack. That was exposed a couple hundred posts ago. Debbie what exactly have you physically done to help children besides ranting on the Internet. We already know the answer and that would be nothing. In the five years you’ve been wallowing in your destroy the SBC mission some of us have been working in real life in real time with real peope getting work accomplished. You reputation before you even showed up on this site was that of a nutcase blogger. You have solidified your reputation Debbie and exposed yourself for the fake Christan and fraud you are. Continue your ranting Debbie it continues to expose your heart.
For those playing the home game,
This is the pot (Bess) calling the kettle (Debbie) black while making Joe Blackmon-esque attacks against a person’s heart and real world actions with little to proof to their claims against the person or evidence to back up their own “my heart is better than your heart” claims.
So I guess it’s okay to start calling everyone fake Christians along with other insults.
Hey Joe, at what point do we have to trot out another apology? I’m a little fuzzy on worthless apologies and how often we need to use them.
Then again, I’m still struggling to find scriptural support for the way Joe Blackmon treats people who disagree with him while justifying it with his warped version of Christianity.
Debbie,
I have seen the “dark side” of the SBC for over thirty-five years and still declare she is still far better than she is bad.
Just in case anyone was interested in my son’s saga, he had church with a goodly attendance;but, what was first string was his Child Care. Two people at all times and both have had background checks. So it has occurred to me that it might not be prevention that is the slowdown but the “making of any list” that some are obviously afraid of showing up on and are even now confusing things by suggesting how their going to answer a “false” accusation. Just get it voted on in a special meeting and get a background check on every church employee and volunteer. During Sunday church when people with their children are being looked after would force common sense. Don’t let people drag it out.
Good answer jack.
Jeff T How do you get a whole paragraph out of “Take Out The Trash”. We can’t do it for you. Get Background Checks & “Take Out The Trash”. Do you have a church and need help? Then ask for it;then, “Take Out The Trash”.
Jack, Take out the trash? What are you talking about?
I don’t need all the proof you talk about to Not Allow or Not H.ire someone. Period. Just give them the Background Check. Then guess what comes next?
Ok, I am not sure you understood what I meant. We do background checks at our church. I am against a national database of people who have never been convicted of a crime.
Jeff: I understood. I disagree. Before say the late 1980′s no ministers were turned into the law, no ministers were convicted. They have been proven to be guilty either by confession or evidence but the statute of limitations has run out to prosecute them. I understood you perfectly and I gave reasons to why I disagree with you.
Most experts agree that fabricated reports of sexual abuse involving children constitute only 1 to 4 percent of all reported cases.
Could you provide references for that statement?
Debbie,
That’s 25%. You do understand that in any statistical discussion of this type, that is a huge number. Normally, I’ve never seen 25% considered an “acceptable margin of error.”
I’d like to know how you feel about a 25% margin of error. Do you feel this should be a concern? No, ulterior motive; just asking.
My answer is: it’s too high to be workable. And, it may be even higher if the truth were fully known. Please hear me, I’m on board for a real, workable solution. I think that all the previous “gaming” (us versus them, moderates versus conservative, Wade versus non-Wade) has, and does, hinder a cooperative effort to a workable solution.
For that, I’m sad.
Debbie is giving a truthful testimony as to the estimate of fabricated reports of sexual abuse involving children.
And, she never answers a direct question. Makes you wonder.
25%?
Debbie said 1 to 4 percent, not 1 out of 4.
For someone who likes to present himself as a very educated man, you’re reading comprehension is the pits.
And so is your math…
There’s a national data base for getting a license to carry a concealed firearm. So What ! If you don’t get the license you can appeal. Ther’s a data base that checks people before flying. So What ! Ted Kennedy used to get flagged on that one. So What !
Jack,
Obama is trying to end concealed carry permits in this country. If he does, you will see a rise in every imaginable form of abuse in this nation. I know that is not the subject of this thread, but I take every chance I can do defend the Second Amendment without which we will loose the First Amendment.
Thank you to Christa for sending me these links and data.
Statistics, Prevalence and Consequences of Child Abuse.
http://www.darkness2light.org/KnowAbout/statistics_2.asp
Most experts agree that fabricated reports of sexual abuse involving children constitute only 1 to 4 percent of all reported cases.
A lawyer who has defended Catholic dioceses in more than 500 cases concluded that fewer than 10 of those cases were based on false accusations. (And this was a guy who was working FOR and on behalf of the Catholic Church.)
http://stopbaptistpredators.org/article/few_cases_are_false.html
You also have to balance the facts. There is a very small but a risk no matter how small of a false report. That is why it is important to get people who are knowledgeable, experts in child abuse, which there are such people among SB’s to assess the situation, to handle the accusations. However you also need to assess the damage to a falsely accused minister as opposed to a child. A minister loses his career, a child who is sexually raped, molested, loses their life. Their very soul which determines who we are. It kills who they really are and turns them into who the pain now dictates they be. Working through that pain is not easy. It turns their world upside down. The fact is a very, very small percentage of accusations are false. That should not stop us from doing all we can as Christians, to stop this killing of our children. Killing that no one can see. That damage not visible to the human eye.
As a health care worker I was exposed to all kinds of disease including AIDS. Universal precautions were put into place and it was up to us individually to use those precautions. But we knew we ran a small risk of getting AIDS or Hepatitis, or TB. But I took that risk in favor of my job which was a health care worker who was needed to take care of patients with the above disease. I put myself at risk for the good of the patient. I think ministers are called to do the same. For the sake of congregants, the sake of God not being lost to the victims, and for the sake of the victims. It’s worth the risk.
Debbie,
The analogy of being a healthcare worker does not work here. You made a calculated choice to be a healthcare worker realizing the risk involved.
An innocent man or woman accused of child abuse does not make a choice to become an accused child abuser unless he/she is insane.
Debbie,
God cannot “be lost to victims” according to Scripture.
Tell that to the victims CB. Tell that to Christa who herself is hanging on to the belief that God did not abandon her by a thread, and more so given some of the reception she has gotten here, as well as from our SB leaders in the past and the ex-com decision in 2008. She told me that it still surprises her the response from Christians in the SB, but she keeps hoping they will change. God has not abandoned them, we have, but to them God has abandoned them to allow the abuse to begin with, instead of stopping it from happening, and then the response of Christians in the church afterward.
Debbie,
I guess the children of a minister who is abused by a system are less victims in your mind. So what a few ministers’ children and wives go through hell.
That sounds a bit heartless to me. Sacrifice a few lives to save a few lives. I’m not comfortable with that math.
Jeff Thomas:
You said:”So you are telling me EVERYTHING on Christa’s blog has been verified by the law and that the person has been convicted in a court of law. A police investigation does not prove guilty.”
With your philosophy you are a guilty person’s best friend. Your paranoi is admirable if you are like this in all cases of crime. But your level of proof is so high that a guilty verdict seems unlikely from you because you sound like you are afraid there might be something out there that would acquit the accused. When did anything have a 100% guarantee in the criminal level.
Just admit it you are against the data base under any circumstances.
Wow, the excuses that some people will make.
Tom, I am a friend of the judicial system of America. Innocent until proven guilty. My standard is the Constitution.
You still believe people are innocent until proven guilty in the US?
Ask those falsely accused of “domestic violence” or “child abuse.” Let’s not forget those charged with narcotics violations. They often have their property seized without due process and, even if found not guilty, have a difficult time getting their property back.
Obviously, Stan McCullars lives and ministers in the real world.
If the real world is to protect yourself and not the kids, then it’s not the real world. Secular people would be more willing and in fact have been which is why the laws we currently have that were not in place twenty or thirty years ago. It’s 2010 and the Roman Catholics are ahead of us by far in combating this. Unlike us they take responsibility. It was due to media pressure, but they have done it. Let’s not let it go to the media, let’s do something now. In fact we have been in front of the media, and we looked pretty bad, cause we are.
I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying.
If that’s the case Jeff, if this system works so well, if it is being utilized, why are children still being sexually abused?
This on August 9, 2010www.dailyhome.com/view/full_story/9055644/article-Pell-City-man-pleads-guilty-to-sexual-abuse?instance=home_news_bullet
We are talking children here. I have given the statistics of the false reports. Very minimal. It is worth the risk. Any minister worth his salt would not care the risk. What’s the phrase I hear? Cowboy up? Well now is the time to cowboy up. Our children deserve it. They need to know they matter this much.
Already there Debbie, why don’t you join us?
We already have the ability to do background checks on convicted criminals. So we do not need a national database, lets move on to education.
If that’s the case Jeff, if this system works so well, if it is being utilized, why are children still being sexually abused?
This on August 9, 2010www.dailyhome.com/view/full_story/9055644/article-Pell-City-man-pleads-guilty-to-sexual-abuse?instance=home_news_bullet
Debbie, You know the answer. No system is perfect. Your suggestions will not prevent child abuse. My suggestion to Christa is drop the national database, tone down her personality, start a ministry get non-profit status, connect with churches that will connect with her with money, keep her database, and start doing educational conferences across the country. Instead of harping on what we are doing wrong, look forward to what we are doing right. As people see her heart, she will be able to say here is the best way forward.
I think this is my last word on this but that’s what I would do if I were in her shoes.
Tell that to the next child who is a victim Jeff.
Debbie, Your response hurts your cause more than anything else. This is the exact thing I am talking about with you and Christa. I appreciate your passion, but your passion turns people off at times. Can I not have the same passion as you do for child abuse, but honest believe that a national database is not the best way to go? Again, I gave Christa what I believe is the best course of action at this time. I have attempted in my last few posts to tone down my language, but apparently you have not or cannot do that.
So, if your tone hurts your cause more than helps–perhaps you can tell that to the next victim of child abuse. Tell them, I cannot control my anger, my passion to work with others.
Debbie, whether you like it or not I think a national database is a dead issue right now. My suggestion is to start where you are and influence people and allow your circle to get bigger and bigger.
A pastor was fired once for moving a pulpit by a church. The story goes that months later the church was led to seek forgiveness from the young pastor for firing him by an older pastor who was serving as an interim.
The younger pastor return for visit to reconcile and discover that the pulpit was where he wanted to move it. He ask the older pastor how did that happen? How did you move it without getting fired?
The older wiser pastor remarked, “an inch at a time.”
Think about it Debbie.
Stan–
It is a protective concept, but can get in the way of swift justice for an abuser hiding out in any organization. However, there are always those who know the truth—sadly, they often don’t want to get involved = sin of omission!!!
All a complaint does is raise a red flag. It must be investigated and resolved with fairness and honesty.
Satan love nothing more than to have a supposed follower of Christ acting with inappropriate inuendo–and another using such to try and destroy someone’s reputation. Add the 2 together and you have “hell on earth” rather than the “kingdom of God.” Sounds too much like a typical Baptist church to me–full of rumor and inuendo with forgiveness and truth lost!!
“Just don’t hurt the offering” is too often the real motive.
QUOTE SSBN, Ergun Caner defense much? Defending the indefensible… HAHAHA!!!! END QUOTE
Quite frankly, Bill, I see nothing funny in regard to this matter. I also see a little more than a bit of hyporcrisy in your attacking of someone who has not posted on this thread and then whining because some suggests in a particular post that you are wrong.
You only make yourself look like a little man with a little mind when you post something like the above.
I want to know where I’m whining because someone suggests that I’m wrong. For the record, you and I are arguing two different perspectives on the other post. You’ll find that I even concede one of your points to you. That’s whining? Seriously?
There have been numerous times that people have provided links and evidence contrary to my stance and then I come back with the corrected stance.
Case in point:
I was for a database.
Now, I’m against it after someone suggested that I go look at it some more.
I did. I also contacted some friends of mine, as laid out in earlier posts, which led me to my stance now.
Too bad most of the others here aren’t as receptive as I am to actually being wrong. They all think admitting the possibility of being wrong, which I even suggested about a stance I took on yet another thread, is a sign of weakness.
As for the Ergun Caner thing, until someone refutes the wealth of primary sources that Jason Smathers and others have dug up, then who’s defending the indefensible? It ain’t me… The stance Liberty took kept them out of the papers and nothing more.
If you’re going to try and call me out and insult me, make sure you’ve done your homework on me. If you want to call me out for insulting people, that’s fine, I’ll openly admit that I’m harsh to Volfan and Joe Blackmon. They’re openly harsh to me and others. If you want to call me out for whining, then prove the whining. If you want to insult me, then do it. Don’t couch it and try to justify it.
Bill: what exactly did you see that changed your mind?
In a nutshell, legal ramifications and selfish, vindictive human actions.
Legal Ramifications – an innocent man gets put on this thing and his life is utterly obliterated with no hope of returning to any form of ministry
selfish, vindictive human actions – false accusations based on other people’s greed, anger, or desires
I’m onboard for a quiet investigative group working in the confines of the convention and the proper local authorities OR for this to be handled at the local or state convention level.
“The stance Liberty took kept them out of the papers and nothing more.”
The above statement has become evidently become more and more true.
Yep.
Soundslike some are worried about or have “been Charged” with a crime but the charge was nolle prossed or a deal was made where just the charge remains; and people in this class are going to say forever that they were falsely charged and were never guilty. Nothing new here. Now a string of these says something in itself but in any event what the report says on a person’s background doesn’t cost them a job. A person or a board or committee do that and if a person is HONEST up front he probably either can explain them away or if he did it depending on the event he asks for forgiveness because of whatever & whatever. But he still got himself in this jam, no one else and honesty plus some understand which some don’t seem to understand what, “Take Out The Trash” means.
QUOTE in any event what the report says on a person’s background doesn’t cost them a job. END QUOTE
I think the database on the number of people who have been falsely charged with some that shows up in a report would differ with you. And, I’m talking about some minor issues.
Committees — in my experience — tend to blow things up, not play things down. They tend to be “Scarlet Letter” kind of people in my experience. Any hint of any level of sexual indiscretion that might show up on any report would most likely sink any potential candidate for a pastoral position — in my personal experience with committees.
Here’s my take: if I were on a committee and a candidate had even lived in a town where a molestation took place — I’d be skeptical. The question is: am I typical, or would most people, as Christa’s website states, give people a free pass?
My answer is: most people on most SBC pastor search committees would NOT give any kind of free pass to something like a suggestion of sexual impropriety no matter what the truth really was.
Don’t forget that a committee could agree to overlook a past transgression but not want a wimpy, mealy mouth constant excuse making person for a pastor/minister. He’s just going to get notified he’s not in the running for this particular job and the applicant is going to blame it on his background report.
According to the link I have given:
* PREVALENCE is the percentage of the population that is affected by child sexual abuse; the general existence of child sexual abuse.
* CONSEQUENCE is the impact that child sexual abuse has on a victim/survivor and on our society over time.
* Sexual abuse touches every life when it leads to losses of trust, decreases in self esteem, and development of shame, guilt and depression.
* Sexual abuse touches every life when it leads to eating disorders, substance abuse, suicide, promiscuity/prostitution, and other psychobehavioral issues;
The statistics are shocking
* 1 in 4 girls is sexually abused before the age of 18. (96)
* 1 in 6 boys is sexually abused before the age of 18. (96)
* 1 in 5 children are solicited sexually while on the internet. (30, 87)
* Nearly 70% of all reported sexual assaults (including assaults on adults) occur to children ages 17 and under. (76)
* An estimated 39 million survivors of childhood sexual abuse exist in America today. (1)
Even within the walls of their own homes, children are at risk for sexual abuse
* 30-40% of victims are abused by a family member. (2, 44, 76)
* Another 50% are abused by someone outside of the family whom they know and trust.
* Approximately 40% are abused by older or larger children whom they know. (1, 44)
* Therefore, only 10% are abused by strangers.
Sexual abuse can occur at all ages, probably younger than you think
* The median age for reported abuse is 9 years old. (64)
* More than 20% of children are sexually abused before the age of 8. (76)
* Nearly 50% of all victims of forcible sodomy, sexual assault with an object, and forcible fondling are children under 12. (74, 76)
Most children don’t tell even if they have been asked
* Evidence that a child has been sexually abused is not always obvious, and many children do not report that they have been abused.
* Over 30% of victims never disclose the experience to ANYONE.
* Young victims may not recognize their victimization as sexual abuse.
* Almost 80% initially deny abuse or are tentative in disclosing. Of those who do disclose, approximately 75% disclose accidentally. Additionally, of those who do disclose, more than 20% eventually recant even though the abuse occurred.
* Fabricated sexual abuse reports constitute only 1% to 4% of all reported cases. Of these reports, 75% are falsely reported by adults and 25% are reported by children. Children only fabricate ½% of the time.
Consequences of child sexual abuse begin affecting children and families immediately. They also affect society in innumerable and negative ways. These effects can continue throughout the life of the survivor so the impact on society for just one survivor continues over multiple decades. Try to imagine the impact of 39 million survivors.
Health and/or Behavioral Problems:
* The way a victim’s family responds to abuse plays an important role in how the incident affects the victim.
* Sexually abused children who keep it a secret or who “tell” and are not believed are at greater risk than the general population for psychological, emotional, social, and physical problems often lasting into adulthood.
* Children who have been victims of sexual abuse are more likely to experience physical health problems (e.g., headaches).
* Victims of child sexual abuse report more symptoms of PTSD, more sadness, and more school problems than non-victims. (10, 16, 55, 72)
* Victims of child sexual abuse are more likely to experience major depressive disorder as adults. (55, 72)
* Young girls who are sexually abused are more likely to develop eating disorders as adolescents. (16, 40, 89)
* Adolescent victims of violent crime have difficulty in the transition to adulthood, are more likely to suffer financial failure and physical injury, and are at risk to fail in other areas due to problem behaviors and outcomes of the victimization.
Drug and/or Alcohol Problems:
* Victims of child sexual abuse report more substance abuse problems. 70-80% of sexual abuse survivors report excessive drug and alcohol use. (10, 16, 89)
* Young girls who are sexually abused are 3 times more likely to develop psychiatric disorders or alcohol and drug abuse in adulthood, than girls who are not sexually abused. (16, 40, 89)
* Among male survivors, more than 70% seek psychological treatment for issues such as substance abuse, suicidal thoughts and attempted suicide. Males who have been sexually abused are more likely to violently victimize others. (90)
Teenage Pregnancy and Promiscuity:
* Children who have been victims of sexual abuse exhibit long-term and more frequent behavioral problems, particularly inappropriate sexual behaviors.
* Women who report childhood rape are 3 times more likely to become pregnant before age 18.
* An estimated 60% of teen first pregnancies are preceded by experiences of molestation, rape, or attempted rape. The average age of their offenders is 27 years.
* Victims of child sexual abuse are more likely to be sexually promiscuous. (39, 59, 60, 70)
* More than 75% of teenage prostitutes have been sexually abused.
Crime:
* Adolescents who suffer violent victimization are at risk for being victims or perpetrators of felony assault, domestic violence, and property offense as adults.
* Nearly 50% of women in prison state that they were abused as children.
* Over 75% of serial rapists report they were sexually abused as youngsters.
Most perpetrators don’t molest only one child if they are not reported and stopped.
* Nearly 70% of child sex offenders have between 1 and 9 victims; at least 20% have 10 to 40 victims. (23)
* An average serial child molester may have as many as 400 victims in his lifetime.
Debbie, Why doesn’t Christa join in this discussion? Wouldn’t be better if instead of posting for her—she posted for herself.
I asked her for the information Jeff. She sent it to me. I never post anything as if it is from me if it not. I always credit where my information comes from as I did here.
What? And get excoriated herself?
This thread is beyond useless now.
We all put in some constructive stuff and like any good gathering of Southern Baptists, it has turned into something akin to “Beyond Thunderdome” where it’s “Two men (BFM2K) enter, one man leaves.”
Matt, will you or anyone for that matter go ahead and post a couple of new articles so we can read the constructive posts before Joe Blackmon and Co. get to their keyboards?
Bill, I find it odd that Christa is pushing for reform but does not come on this forum and dialogue with us. Can we find any common ground on this matter? I think so, but (myself included) need to lay down our swords and come together. I am not for a database like Debbie wants, but I think we can find agreement on other issues regarding this issue. My youth pastor attended a child abuse awareness clinic put on in our city, and commented we need more of these things. Perhaps, the time has come for Christa to move into an area of ministry where she hosts conferences.
I think you have some good ideas here Jeff. I agree, we could come to some compromise. At this point as a Southern Baptist and Christian woman, I am for anything to be done. It’s a beginning. A good beginning.
Christa was treated so badly in the Prayer as Propoganda blog, why would she want to get more slapping from the super-righteous????
All you have done is distort her ministry so you could criticize it—-SHAME / SHAME!
I agree that someone needs to step up and take the lead in educating ministers and churches themselves to protect themselves from these predators. Maybe Christa is the one to do that, maybe Jeff’s the one to do it…
I taught the equivalent program in Boy Scouts for local troops and organizations for a number of years, I suppose that I could adapt it for churches with little difficulty.
The above statistics are startlling and depressing.
Here, in Eastern NC, we have a federal grant to the Pitt County (Greenville / home of East Carolina University) to persue “Human Trafficking.” It primarily involves law enforcement pursuing a deep and hidden problem in the country: using women and children in the sex trade for “wonderful religious white males” to have easy access to women and children for sexual gratification.
It is in its beginning, but already discovering terrible abuse. Here is our most recent Biblical Recorder post:
http://www.biblicalrecorder.org/post/2010/08/23/North-Carolina-hotspot-for-human-trafficking.aspx
You would think that a good “Bible Belt” part of NC is doing a great job of spiritual influence–NOT!
Beneath the surface of church going and Baptist influence is an underbelly of sexual abuse / immigrants used for sexual gratification / hidden corruption.
We will see what a Federal Grant to the Pitt County Sheriff’s Department drags up. I suspect it will get worse and worse. Ultimately it will show that people going to church on Sunday are using women and children for their perverted sexual desires.
I’ll keep you posted.
Gene,
That article shared the involvement of people in Baptist churches doing what they could to stop trafficking. It was a positive article about churches doing something about a heinous situation.
Then you twist it to make it say something derogatory about Christians??
Why do you do such things?
From where do you think the clients come????
One of the speakers said it plainly: they are people who possibly sit beside you in church, but have a hidden dark side!!
Gene – Not only do you understand but you are willing to talk openly which opens you up for critisism. Some of the smaller churchs I call clubs have people working in sensitive positions who are “schacking up”, lose their tempers and need to have a background check. But they refuse and the club has won’t enforce and motion that has been passed concerning back ground checks because these people are related. Removing these churchs from the SBC or having some lever to remove undesireables is important. There are more good people out here than bad of all colors I might add and I’m enthused that we’re not just talking but doing somthing and that bothers some people now that see their memberships declining and try to exist on bake sales. We need to keep the pressure on in all the right places and this blog helps a lot. Aside, I got “beat up” when I came on here for some reason. But the way I talk or my lack of a formal education I hope has shown to some not to be a detriment to real life experiences. Time for breakfast but I’m not , and attacking child abuse won’t stop.
QUOTE I got “beat up END QUOTE
Seems to me you do a fair amount of “beating up” as I read through your posts, like this one making fun of smaller churches trying to do what they can to keep the doors open.
It takes a big man to beat up on little people . . . not!
This is a blog where it is very clear there is a “us vs. them” mentality. It becomes clear very early to most people whether someone is an “us or a them.” To think this blog is much more than a debate between clubs, is naive.
So, when you take a side and push its agenda, don’t be surprised when the other side pushes back. That’s how it is in here.
SSBN, are you talking about this blogsite? or this stream in this post? It seems to me that no matter where we go, the blogs become an “us” vs. “them”. All one has to do is attach SBC to the title of just about anything and hounds are out to attack it. And then we have the “us” vs. “thems” who aren’t even a part of the SBC who seem to think they should have just as much a say in the “voice” of the SBC. Then we have folks who comment anonymously who are allowed to shoot shotguns at everyone. But the writer of a post at this blogsite has no control over the streams–so they just go on and on and on…maiming people when it is totally uncalled for. Then we have folks who don’t even know who their friends are because they assume every person who posts on this blogsite believes like everyone else who posts on this blogsite. Not true.
The format alone drives me nuts. Sometimes I haven’t a clue what someone is referring to because it doesn’t flow comment after comment–but reply to reply–and then some post their replies at the end of the stream and it gets all wadded up like spaghetti. Even the Holy Spirit has a hard time figuring out how to lay conviction on someone. It’s daunting, I tell ya.
Anyway, the pushes and shoves could be avoided if we’d all just try to see what the other is saying and not pretend we know. I sure don’t. That’s why I’m always asking stupid questions. selahV
I agree. The format is extremely difficult to follow.
BDW: Instead of worrying about the format, I wish you would add some wisdom to the Cordova Mosque here.
I have just submitted a comment to Jerry Vines blog on Clark Pinnock.
Hope you will do likewise. Be sure to copy and paste your submission at bl.com SBC Trends just in case Vines doesn’t post it.
My comment is awaiting moderation.
Big Daddy–do you realize you just agreed with me? yippee. I’ve been waiting for that ever since I first debated with you over that stupid Dove ad of naked ladies in Better Homes and Gardens Magazine. Let’s see. That was in 2007 wasn’t it? Great day in the morning. You and I are making headway, huh? BTW, I have a photo of your grandfather’s church and his parsonage, that I need to send to you. I keep forgetting about it. Watch your email. selahV
Your post proves my point when you make assumptions that people post annoymously to “shoot” at people. A left-handed slap in the face is still a slap in the face.
So, thank you for proving my point.
Stephen, you need to send Aaron to the site where that discussion is going on. It’s not here. The mosque is my controversy. Whew…wish I’d kept that opinion to myself. selahV
SSBN, not sure how I proved your point. But I’m glad I did. I’m trying to get to know you and let you know I am not against you. I’d like to be friends. Seems like you and I have some of the same adversaries in some topics. The anonymous statement I made was directed at a wide variety of folks in blogstreams and we can’t do anything about them when we don’t control it. I wasn’t aiming that shot at you. And as far as a “slap” comment, was that meant to say that I am lefthandedly trying to slap someone’s face in particular? If so, I am not, and wasn’t when I wrote it.
It’s not an assumption that folks (not all, but some) post anonymously to throw stones in another’s pot of stew. It happens all the time. Haven’t you experienced it? They want to cause a big splash as I see it. And they don’t care whose white shirt gets dirty in the process.
SSBN…I pray God’s grace abounds with you. Peace be yours. selahV
SSBN, Harriet I have explained why I don’t use my given name in several posts. I just don’t do it anymore because it is pointless. Unless two bloggers live across the street from each other, pretty much all of us are “anonymous.” Just giving a “proper” name does not make friends of people.
I do really try to engage “what” is said more than “who” is saying it. This is not always an easy task. I chuckle behind my anonymity when people try to psychoanalyze me or put me in a box. These people are almost always 180 degrees off from what I really am and how I really think.
Thanks for your kindheartedness. Then again, maybe you are just a smooth-talking axe murderer
Speaking of axe murderers, Frailty is a grand movie and I’m betting Hariette and Mavis Granddaughter Bess has seen it.
It’s just not true we don’t know one another here; I know BDW and CB Scott, but as a general rule SSBN has a remote point.
SSBN, sorry, I haven’t been reading these blogs much. Been busy going to waterpark with grandkids, writing devotionals, and editing other folk’s writing. So I missed your explanation.
“Smooth-talking Axe-murderer”, how funny. Rest assured I relate well to your plight of being one who is psychcoanalyzed with every word you write. I really try to be up front with what I am trying to say. I don’t always write as clearly as my brain wants, or my heart desires. I am forever forgetting to add the little smiley faces because I know I’m kidding. I forget that others cannot see my face or my heart as they look at the letters I cluster together on these pages.
Some of my greatest critics have engaged me, more because of who I befriend, than what I think. Most topics that are horrendously controversial, I stay clear of. But let me enter a stream and I’m immediately clumped with anyone in the stream who knows me and likes me or what I say. It is weird. It happens to almost everyone in blogland.
I may have conversed with you in the past, but I just don’t recall. You are right that we are all nearly anonymous. But I conversed with someone on a blog who argued irrationally every point I made according to scripture, and it wasn’t till I got really tired of trying to debate the madness, that I finally asked if he believed the Bible. He didn’t. He thought is was a book that a bunch of old deranged, bedraggled wanderers in the desert wrote to give excuses for what they did. In other words it was pure fiction to him.
He was one of the anons I referred to. But I’ve had many more. You’ve probably answered this somewhere else, but bear with me. How long have you been blogging? I’m just curious.
Thanks for grasping my hand of friendship. I really don’t think too deviously. Although my muse tries its best to put words in other’s mouths sometimes.
Blessings. selahV
P.S. My axe is in the tree stump. Don’t tell anyone.
Stephen, I don’t know CB, as in having met him. But I’ve been blogging enough in SBC blogtown that we have built a rather wonderful understanding of one another’s humor. He is rather a curmudgeon, but that’s what makes him so loveable. He doesn’t want everyone to know he has a heart of gold. Gets embarassed when folks know what a softie he is for the abused children in this world–especially those who have suffered fetal alcohol syndrome and have to live with agonizing permanent brain damage because someone thinks alcohol is safe for anyone and causes no harm.
He’ll argue till he’s blue in the face, just to argue, but mostly he has a purpose in mind with all his rowdy ways. Tell ya what. I’m glad he has my back at times. Especially with all the shotguns he has.
I’m not such an anonymous person. I lay out about everything there is to know about a person on my blog. It’s all about me (hee hee), and how God touches the deepest part of my soul, and then also times He’s had to resort to bopping me upside the head. Come by and see me some time.
As far as Joe Blackmon goes. I’ve never met him either. He is outrageous when he pops into a blogstream. He loves to see the ripples, I think. C’mon, Joe. You know you do. But he is a wonderful Christian man who loves the Lord and desires to live sacrificially and humbly before him. I think we are here for him to keep him humble. LOL
He sent me the most marvelous book that he reviewed on his blog. The book is all about missionaries to Japan and the unbelieveable sacrifices they made to live in a country and reach the lost for the Lord. You oughta go read his blog sometime. He’s not hired me as an agent yet, not even an editor, but he oughta. Someone tell him that. Will ya?
There…now I’ve sufficiently hijacked this thread–but it almost appears as if it needed to be hijacked anyway. What do ya’ll think? Are we getting any closer to a consensus on the topic? selahV
SelahV,
Curmudgeon?????
SelahV, I don’t hate humanity, I just hate stupid when humanity gets involved with it.
CB…I knew I could get a rise out of you with that descriptor. hee hee. you ill-tempered, cantankerous ol’ coot!
Humanity has a way of messing up everything it touches, now, doesn’t it? No matter how hard we try…we just keep falling short. Don’t we?
BTW SelahV, (and seriously)
Thank you for the kind words. They mean a lot. to me coming from you.
Do you remember when Ben Cole and I would go to war with Peter Lumpkins, Bart Barber, Brad Reynolds, Tim Rogers, Wes Kenney, Tim Guthrie and all thise guys and you would blog prayers for our deliverance? Those were some great times.
I remember Peter was the only guy who ever whipped Ben and I hands down in a blog fight. That was a great and true blood war and a wonderful night in Blogtown. I think it made Peter famous with the BI gang. 
We would stay up all night sometimes. Those were the days, huh?
Nonetheless, thank you for your kindness toward me in your words above.. But I must say that Jesus was kind and merciful to me in saving me and allowing me to have part in the care of His children, especially the damaged ones.
I think I will call it a night now. I have got to go catch up on the reading list Steve assigned me. It is kinda long you know.
God bless, SelahV.
Ah, yes…CB. Oh, my goodness…did you have to bring up all those guys? their very names will cause more stones to drop into this stream. yeah. Those were the days. Ben was one of the most colorful of all fellas. Never held back anything that was in his thoughts. I’m still praying for him, actually.
Well, I think my prayers for ya’ll’s deliverance are well on their way to being answered. Many a sword has been turned into plowshares. Someone ought to go back and research who first made up that silly BI camp label. I doubt we could find a lot of the history in blogland. People changed the names of their blogs…deleted blogsites…moved on…dropped out.
Yeah, those were the days. Peter’s gained a bunch of new adversaries since then. And an abundance of new friends. He’s so provocative…folks can’t help but get agitated at his literary “lifting of skirts” and “with that I am”….selahV
I always feel sick, when I read concerning the sexual abuse of children. The simple reason is that that has been one of the primary areas of counseling in which I earned my M.A. in Counseling from Liberty in ’88. I was moved to seek the degree due to have a number of cases come to my attention in ’85. While securing the degree, I wrote a paper on the subject. Then I was employed as a counselor in a 4A Senior High School, and my primary area of responsibility in pathology was dealing with incest and pedophile cases which required reporting to the police and child welfare authorities. One thing is crystal clear about the sexual abuse of children: It practical destroys children as to their usefulness and success in life as adults. The statistics are overwhelmingly bad. That any survive to accomplish anything in life is little short of a miracle. One thing is definite and concrete: Abusers must bve stopped and that immeditely! Beyond that, the counseling for the children must be thorough, exhaustive, lasting. As to ministers taking advantage of their positions, they need to be removed forthwith. What we need is a visitation from God, an awakening that will renew and restore sanity to society in personal, familial, judicial, and other areas.
Jim–
I totally concur with your observation!!!
Our sexual selves are intimate–and with us from birth. When our sexuality gets confused, it generates more confusion and may keep us so throughout life.
Case in point: During my Pastoral Care round at SEBTS we met each Monday at Dorothea Dix State Hospital. Dr. Saunders led the course. Part of it was to visit the wards and talk with patients.
In the women’s out-building I met a lady in her mid-30′s who believed that building was “her world” and the main building was “another world.” It was a clear sign of schizophrenia.
As we talked further she related a story of living with her sister and husband. One day he molested her. Her mind went into overdrive. The sister trusted her husband and so did this lady. The last thing she expected was being molested. He was an active church member acting as if he were a “good man.”
Her protection of herself and her personality was for her mind to take on a duality which led her into reality vs. fantasy. Only in her fantasy world did she find peace and she had chosen it for her life.
It is a pathetic example of how sexual abuse can literally send one off the deep end–from which they might not recover.
Another story related by another Professor was of a Missionary’s Kid, a beautiful teenage girl who encountered abuse during MK orientation. Her leader, an older man, took advantage of her and she also went crazy.
The greatest part of both these women’s problems was their trust in a religious person to be honest and treat them with respect, when the reality was a hidden abuser who took their simple trust and turned it into lust and physical contact not wanted.
This issue is more serious than many want to admit. A trusting teen, just beginning to feel the normal arousal of hormones beginning to flow, needs to be treated as a precious instrument of potential love and its companion physical pleasure. That’s the way God meant it to be.
Now we have such sexuality–much of it abnormal–being foisted on confused teens.
I will remember the rest of my life a mother describing what was happening to her very normal / developing daughter who craved friendship over sexual relations. This girl’s female buddies were accusing her of being a lesbian because she was not engaged in heterosexual contact as they were at age 16 or so.
Even the most respected part of a teen’s world can corrupt them. They are in a stage where parents’ word is always questioned and takes second place to the judgment of same age friends.
It is the “blind leading the blind” in a world where 50% of marriages end in divorce and children have little except Hannah Montanna–and wanabes–giving them guidance. They want to experiment with basic facts learned in sex education.
Any wise course of sex education involves much more than basic facts of anatomy and “where babies come from.” It should include the aspects of a loving relationship between a male and female. It so far exceeds the “urge to merge” that all should be mature enough to guide and encourage than take the opportunity to use and abuse. The aspects of relationship are impossible to teach from a book. It is learned through observation of loving couples caring enough to spend quality time with our teens showing them a man and woman who love and never use or abuse one another.
I really thought I was through but here’s one post. Christa Brown posted on her blog today an admission that yes there would be liability to the SBC (kinda threw Debbie no harm can com to the SBC coughman under the bus). Christa also showed her contempt, disdain and despect for all this SBC. No Christa it’s not about protecting the “institution” or protecting her “coffers”. Some of us think the Great Commission matters and clearly some don’t.
When all else fails resort to the “you only care about money you don’t care about children” card. Christa shows with this post that all she care about is damaging the SBC. She’s looking for win against them. It’s not good for her ego if other ideas they don’t include her Holy Grail database. She can’t revenge or credit if other ways to help the SBC are implemented.
As for posting annoymously – there are crazy people all over the Internet who would not only choose to harass and attack a person’s family and church. As to why I’m so “offensive”. Or perhaps a better word is aggressive – you don’t take a knife to a gun fight. Christa and company have a history of attacking and demonizing all who disagree with their database and really really don’t want to talk about anything else.
I will bid you all adieu.
Not so fast . . . . don’t bess around with the facts.
Here is the actually article by Christa, so that people can see for themselves what Christa wrote:
http://stopbaptistpredators.blogspot.com/
Christa wrote a very good article.
Joe/Bess: The risk to the children is greater. We have the money, we have the resources. I can’t believe that you would put that ahead of the statistics I gave. If you will read my past comments I said that 1-4% are false. That is a small number compared to the number of children being raped against their will. Scripture used against them, their faith used against them. I also pointed out that out of the all of reports the RCC got, only 10 were false. Small number. Now if you will again look at comment # 356 those numbers are staggering. Compared to the risk which is small, those numbers should blow us out of the water.
I think you had better read Christa’s article again Joe/Bess. You have completely twisted what it is she said. Again.
I agree, Debbie.
It’s becoming a pattern for ‘bess’ or ‘Bess’ or whomever.
L’s,
If you would like to lay down your vicarious sword and shield you wield through Debbie and a few others and discuss the issue of child abuse please enter in. You are a rather bright person.
If that is not your desire, please just lurk in the bushes and wait for another day when a post more suited for your need to attack biblical Christians appears. I can assure you I will be more than glad to engage you then.
Right now, to quote Debbie, “This is not a game.” We are talking about what to do about child abuse in our culture as Christians.
What do you say L’s? Cowboy up? Or stay in the barn?
It is a small number until you are in that 1%-4%. When you write that way you are pouring salt on people who have been destroyed by false accusations.
Tony…I caught a comment on this thread and ran with it for a bit. None of it really related much to the post you wrote. Sorry.
Have you gleaned any constructive ideas yet? Just wondering.
selahV
SelahV:
You said the following:”As far as Joe Blackmon goes. I’ve never met him either. He is outrageous when he pops into a blogstream. He loves to see the ripples, I think. C’mon, Joe. You know you do. But he is a wonderful Christian man who loves the Lord and desires to live sacrificially and humbly before him. I think we are here for him to keep him humble. LOL He sent me the most marvelous book that he reviewed on his blog. The book is all about missionaries to Japan and the unbelieveable sacrifices they made to live in a country and reach the lost for the Lord. You oughta go read his blog sometime. He’s not hired me as an agent yet, not even an editor, but he oughta. Someone tell him that. Will ya?”
Surely you jest. You must be reading blog comments by a different Joe Blackmon than I read.
Tom, yeah…I’m just kidding.
selahV
Tom Parker,
Either go grade some papers or lighten your bean counter self up a little. Life is not always a spreadsheet.
Tom–
I couldn’t have said it better myself!!!
Thanks for your honesty!
Harriet, CB: Again, this isn’t a game. This isn’t about politics, although once again it seems that is the main criteria. This is about a real problem that exists and no amount of light hearted bantering, joking is going to make it go away. In fact it rubs salt in the victims wounds. This isn’t about who can write the wittiest insults or the cutest phrases. This is about children who have had sex with a minister. Who have been raped. Sodomized. Children. Toddlers. Teenagers. What part of that do you not get?
Yet, Debbie you insulted me when I tried to dialogue with you. You are just as guilty as anyone else on this list. I offer some suggestions and gave my opinion in a respectable way to you. You gave me a one line comment.
Debbie,
I know it is not a game. I deal with it constantly. Yet, you accuse me of lying about that constantly also. Debbie, what are you actually doing other than promoting Crista Brown?
You berate all Southern Baptists, it seems, because we do not have a Convention level data base. Yet, when we ask you about the data base, you become defensive when we venture questions as to the inherent problems with it.
Debbie, I actually wish the data base concept would work. I wish that because I know there is a real problem. And the real problem goes beyond some perverted ministry people. The scope of the problem is much larger than that.
I tell you what Debbie. You lay down the sword and shield. You agree to have a dialogue without the condescending manner by which you entered this comment thread and we can have a dialogue. I really do want to see this problem addressed in the SBC in a constructive manner. I know its a problem. I don’t need to be convinced of that. Child sexual abuse is a problem in our whole culture. It is growing. The issue needs to be addressed by the Christian community.
You want to discuss it Debbie? I will be around some today. Others will also, I am sure. Let’s talk. What do you say?
Debbie, you are right. this is not a topic for joking around and kidding around. I apologize. In fact, I got caught up in this stream quite by accident. I’d been having a conversation with SSBN at my post on the Mosque being built at Ground Zero, and was quickly glancing at the sidebar of commenters and missed that SSBN was commenting on this post and not mine. So I didn’t even notice that when I clicked on his name and started a conversation pertaining to his “us” vs. “them” comment about blogstreams.
Please accept my apologies, my banter, and forgive me for intruding in this stream of thought. hariette (a.k.a. selahV)
SelahV,
Don’t leave yet.
Bess,
Hang around.
Maybe Debbie will be willing to lay down the sword and shield and have a real dialogue about a real problem. If she does, maybe you guys can join in a civil discussion along with anyone else willing to leave the CR and personalities out of it and just talk. What do you say?
CB, I have offered some suggestions to Debbie and was either ignored or told tell that to someone who has been abused. Debbie and Christa could do great things, but their personality turns people off.
Jeff T,
I have read every comment in this comment thread. I know you have seriously tried to engage the subject matter.
But maybe Debbie will reconsider and engage in the discussion and keep her sword in its sheath for a while. Let’s wait and see.
Debbie,
What do you say? Dialogue without swords? No CR Stuff? Let Patterson stay in Ft. Worth and Gaines in Memphis? What do you say?
CB: If I remember our point of disagreement was that you said one drink is abuse. I disagreed and still do. I am as serious on this issue as a heart attack.
Jeff: I did answer your suggestions and if you will look at the comments I acknowledged those that I thought were good suggestions. You will find them near your suggestions.
You are right Debbie. That is what you said. Now, let’s talk about what we can do about child abuse and let Patterson and company alone for the time being. What do you say?
CB, I wouldn’t hold your breath. Debbie Kaufman has got to be one the most insecure people on the planet which leads to her inabiity in these types of discussions to dig in and make such irrational statements. She’s a her way or the highway gal. It’s really a shame because she does have passion and a bit of talent but she’s so angry all the time that she just damages whatever cause she’s picked up for the month. Now watch her come back with “yes I am angry about children being abused why aren’t you”. Her anger goes way way deeper and linked with the insecurity you won’t be able to dialog long with her. Dialog to her is like Obama’s bipartisanship. We can dialog as long as you agree with everything she says.
I miss Gaines in Bham. Every ten years or so we’d have a good discussion.
I used to call his prayer line toll free at FBC Gardendale during his TV message before I went to Sunday School locally.
It would get me fired up for Smyth and Helwys insight into God’s Holy Word.
Bess,
You may be right. I have been knowing Debbie here in Blogtown since ’06 when she first challenged me on my Fetal Alcohol Syndrome post when I had my blog up. I was speaking to the issue of child abuse by pregnant women who used beverage alcohol during pregnancy. At that time she did not see that as abuse.
Nonetheless, I would like to give her the benefit of the doubt and believe she might be willing to have a real dialogue about a real problem.
Debbie,
What do you say?
CB, since you’ve asked so nicely – I say I am very capable of playing nicely.
One big problem I have with a database is that churches aren’t doing everything they can with the resources and ideas available today. I see this in a lot in the smaller churches we’ve been. They think because they’re small they don’t need fancy scmancy systems to protect children.
I think right now today we have to look at prevention do that even if you get someone with “inclinations” they are never given opportunities to act on those inclinations.
How’s that for a start CB?
Perhaps someone who has the hear of the new SBC president could have him appoint a task force to bring recommendations to the SBC.
Bess, I too am against a database at this point. I am for a group coming together who would create an action to proactively address child abuse in the SBC.
Bess,
Your word “inclinations” is a word that for me is based in my “gut” response to how I see some people. In others words, I make judgement calls. I realize that is not politically correct for sure and some people may say it is unbiblical.
When I deal with a person, I take note of what may be his or her “inclinations” based on what the say, the way they act, their body language, etc, ect, not to mention their history.
Let me give you an example: if a single guy begins to come to our church, joins, begins to show interest in “preschool” “children’s” or “youth” ministry and later volunteers to work in any of those divisions, I can assure you he never will. Not in the church to which I serve as pastor. It ain’t gonna happen.
CB, I can tell you as a mother that I very firmly believe that God as given us a mother’s intuition and I have always listened to my intuition. Perhaps intuition is just another word for discernment. Many years ago when we worked in youth a young girl came to me in tears because one of the older youth boys was coming on too strong and making her unncorfotable. I advised her to always listen to that “gut” feeling and report it and remove herself from the situation. The boys dad thought we were overreacting and boys will be boys – the boy was brought up on rape charges a few years later.
Bess,
You are right that a top-down approach is not going to prevent abuse. All abuse happens “locally.” It is a local problem that must be handled locally. The SBC can best help in its capacity as a resource entity to local churches to better educate churches and leaders as to how to deal with the problem. LifeWay has already done some things. But far more could be done and should be done.
CB, I think a top down approach could help in consolidating all the ideas and resources available. I wonder if the money could be found to compensate someone(s) to travel to churches to present information or at least open doors so that a church could take a love offering for someone willing to do it.
“I wonder if the money could be found to compensate someone(s) to travel to churches to present information or at least open doors so that a church could take a love offering for someone willing to do it.”
Bess,
Good idea. For years, as you probably know, the BSSB/LifeWay sent out consultants to churches for Sunday School, Deacon Ministry, Building Programs, etc. Why could not one of our entities do the same in realtion to child abuse in the local church?
I know the SBC cut back on some of these programs on education, but this is certainly an issue worthy if consideration. There are resources and information available the trick is getting it to the churches and pushing the churches to implement changes necessary.
I pledge to watch my responses for the sake of children. Any one want to join me in my pledge?
Jeff, I can tell you right now that the SBC does not and will not touch a database. It would be very complicated, very expensive to implement, and bring more liability to the SBC than could be Insured against. Now if your talking about task force to put together all the ideas on how churches can protect children today and how can you get that information into churches hands – that’s a possiability if the right people presented it. Some people have bad reputations on this issues (and just bad reputations in the SBC) and they will be pretty much dismissed as SBC haters.
Jeff, the problem with the top down approach is that a lot of churches are somewhat disconnected from the SBC. They’re proudly SBC, send money to th SBC, wouldn’t dream of breaking with the SBC but they don’t really pay attention to the SBC. And the same could be said for State Conventions. So a task force would be good to put together the information available but the trick is getting down to where it needs to go.
The task force idea is a workable beginning.
CB…I’m not going anywhere. Just needed to let Debbie know that I understood her point. As far as whether I can continue in any dialogue here remains to be seen. Like you, history precedes some of my attempts which proved so fruitless for me–and for other readers, that I gave up. I think I’ve already written to the heart of your request in my apology to Debbie. She has yet to respond. So, I guess I’ll just sit on the banks a bit. Okay? Although, I would like to say that I like Jeff T’s idea. Does anyone have the ear of the new SBC President? selahV
Thank you Harriette. I am reading as much as I can as I am working today, but am on lunch, reading rather quickly. I hear you and I thank you for understanding. The harm done to victims is so extensive, their lives ruined forever, that it’s that important to be serious about this.
Let me make one thing clear to you CB. I did not put the words into Paige’s mouth. I reported those words. I did not put the actions of Paige Patterson in his brain, he did that all by himself. I reported them. The reason? To show how we as a denomination have handled child clergy sexual abuse. It is how churches have handled it, I reported it with links. All of it. Christa has an extensive list with quotes, links, foot notes. Read her book. It’s even full of more than I reported. It’s important for all to see that we screwed up in the handling of this. The victims sure know it. Believe me I have heard from them. Now you don’t like to hear that. My response: So what? It’s real, it happened, their words are in black and white for all to read. You don’t like that. My answer again: then change it.
That would go for the words of church leaders, Frank Paige, Jerry Vines, and anyone else who treated victims and this situation as they have. Deal with it.
This is so sad. Debbie you have done more harm than you can ever imagine by your negative attitude. I hate to even respond.
I think you have shown that you are not interested in working with others, you just want others to do exactly what you want them to do. You are no better than the fundies you write against. You are narrow minded and only want cooperation as it works with you.
I am thru with this topic. In fact, I am going to take at least a 24 hour break from this site, maybe more. I am disappointed that we cannot come together for the children.
I have just now read this Harriette. Thank you. Very much.
I can’t get used to this format either, so forgive the repeat. Thank you Harriet. Very much.
Jeff: This negative attitude as you call it is supported by facts. I was appalled to hear how SBC leaders treated the victims and Christa Brown who tried to discuss this with her. I didn’t do the harm, they did. I am making it public for several reasons. 1. To make sure it doesn’t happen again. 2. To show that this just victimized the victims again. 3. Because it needs to be made public. The reaction is what does the harm, not my reporting of it.
No, this negative attitude is supported by hatred for conservative leadership in the SBC which is fanned into flame by the church you go to. I mean, if I hated the SBC as much you obviously do I’d leave it. You and your little band of moderates are not going to be able to undo the CR no matter how many issues you invent trying to do so.
I think Joe Blackmon is a screwball who either needs to start taking his medicine or change doctors. Like I said before he couldn’t diagnose a wart on a toad with his ability to reason that he has evidenced here. Probably sells tapes, razor blades, and rubbers and views himself as a capitalist mogul. I let him beat me up on this web for a while and he misdiagnosed who he thought he was taking advantage of . Just the way a phoney preacher takes advantage of a child or a mother. Probably has a “clergy” sticker on his car and chases ambulances. Good morning everybody and be happy knowing that smart SBC people are indeed creating safe secure child care facilities and haven’t been detoured by wimpy arguements and slowly, too slowly the other “clubs” will turn into roadside restaurants because people will stay away from their invented sicko churchs overseen and developed by unqualified personnel not being able to remember or reason what the Bible teaches.
Debbie, Any wise words for Jack? Perhaps, you could refer him to Wade’s series on the Long Reach of Your Speech!
Jack, sometimes Joe can act like and talk like a screwball. But the rest of your character analysis will do no good in helping him become what you think God wants him to become, will it? Remember, “all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” selahV
Article dated May 2010:
After being raped and impregnated by a fellow churchgoer more than twice her age, a 15-year-old Concord girl was forced by Trinity Baptist Church leaders to stand before the congregation to apologize before they helped whisk her out of state, according to the police.
While her pastor, Chuck Phelps, reported the alleged rape in 1997 to state youth officials, Concord police detectives were never able to find the victim. The victim said she was sent to another church member’s home in Colorado, where she was home-schooled and not allowed to have contact with others her age. It wasn’t until this past February that the victim, who is now 28, decided to come forward after reading about other similar cases, realizing for the first time it wasn’t her fault that she had been raped, she told the police.
http://www.concordmonitor.com/article/police-girl-raped-then-relocated
Oh Debbie I just can’t quit you. So in Debbie’s world a database
1. In no way no how be able to be used as a tool against the SBC
2. It would be easy peasy to implement such a database and
3. The SBC has the “resources”. Unlimited resources, bags if gold just sitting around waiting for a worhty cause. The “coffers” are overflowing.
According to Debbie and Christa the only reason the SBC won’t do a database is because a bunch of men evil old men are sitting around counting the gold in the “coffers”. Every single person who disagree with the database is only converned with money.
Listen if anyone gets into real discussion, how bout discussing the culpability of the parents in some of these cases.
Debbie, this is a horrendous story. While I think the church was negligent in providing more information at the time of the alleged rape, I think the state was abhorently negligent in digging deeper and investigating with due diligence at the time it occurred. It served no one–the church, the girl, or the state–or others who could have been abused since by the same perpertrator. Just pathetic. selahV
Right Selah.
Not to mention that the girl was the victim in this, yet the church leaders made her apologize to the congregation. That alone is spiritual abuse beyond spiritual abuse. That is pure torture for the victim. It’s the same thing Christa’s perp made her do. Apologize and beg his wife’s forgiveness.
God will hold those people accountable.
It is poor that the church and the state does not hold them accountable right now. Was there not a real man of God in the whole congregation is a question I can’t help but ask?
Touch not, God’s anointed…
This is drilled into us from early Sunday School.
Often in direct contradiction to Paul’s charge to be like the Bereans…
I was told growing up that Paul was talking about taking another person’s word, not questioning the pastor.
Bill,
I believe you would agree that passage of Scripture has too often been taken out of context and superimposed upon a situation to cover the sins of church leaders.
That needs to end. Sometimes, we need not only to “touch” church leaders whether they have been anointed or not, (Nathan the prophet did) we need to see them prosecuted to the full extent of the Law.
CB,
You and I are agreeing to way too many things today.
Bill
Bill,
You and I may not agree on some doctrinal, political, historical and policy issues within and without the SBC. That is true.
But I believe we as men of God can most certainly agree that we have been given a stewardship by God to take care of the children He places in our watch.
We both know there is a problem of child abuse in both our secular culture and our church culture as well.
I realize we cannot change the world, but we can make an impact in our local churches to do what is necessary to protect children from being abused by leaders, members or “visitors” alike.
We also need to push the SBC to do what it can to be a resource to help local churches carry out a proper stewardship of protection toward the children in our care.
Yes Bill, you and I may be of a different persuasion of some things. But I think we can work together to help some kids if we will.
Well said and I thoroughly agree.
Debbie your Concord story had a chuch “member” as the the perpetrator. Now the database not only has to include all ministers but every single lay person ever “credibley accused”. Churches are supposed to do backgound checks for every sing person in the church now. And who exactly sent the girl away? The church reported the event. Where are the parents? Was the girl kidnapped g
from her parents?
I bet is was Paige Patterson. Or at least a CR supporter.
Joe, perhaps you haven’t read CB’s gracious and thought-filled comment above, asking folks to lay down the swords, goad-prodders and such so we can have a dialogue here. He particularly asks that we leave the CR and Patterson off the tempting tips of our fingers. His offer has been accepted by some–will you join them? selahV
Aww, I guess so. You know how I love to pick and prod at folks, though.
As for myself, I have no idea how to handle the issue on a national level. I really wouldn’t know where to start. However, I know our church handles things with background checks, multiple adults in classes with the kids, doors with windows, and multiple adult leaders. Now, does our set up guarentee that no child will be molested? Nope. I don’t think there is any way to achieve 100% assurance. We have taken steps to adress the risks and we did it without any sort of national database.
Thanks, Joe. You’re a prince among men, today. Your church seems to be following similar steps to ours. selahV
Joe,
You are right. There are no guarantees that no child in our churches will be abused. Of course there are no guarantees that a child will not be abused anywhere children go in life.
Nonetheless, it will be churches like yours that protect children best and without a Convention level data base.
But Selah, doesn’t anyone see that ‘keeping secrets’ from people has led to more abuse. And telling others to ‘keep quiet’ and not bring certain things up, is just a corollary of ‘keeping secrets’?
What’s done is done.
Sadly, much of it was done on the q.t. and the responsibility, whether accepted or not, has fallen on those who hid info from innocent people.
Excuses aside, autonomy aside, and ‘pressure to maintain the status quo and not rock the boat’ aside,
it might be better for all concerned to take a really GOOD look at at all that HAS happened to bring the SBC to the point where it is now on the clergy-predator issue,
and, in doing that, it may be uncomfortable, but necessary to explore who did what, and said what, and who told whom to be quiet, and who didn’t share pertinent information with whom,
so that the truth can finally come out fully,
and most of all, what CONSEQUENCES fell upon innocent victims as a result.
And, Selah, those consequences were horrific.
Only then, can people honestly confront the issue and consider ALL the difficulties of how to reasonably STOP the nonsense. Right now, that hasn’t happened.
I don’t think that this is the time for hushing anyone up.
I realized the degree of discomfort some have with people speaking openly, from the fire storm that I received when I recently gave this quote:
“The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.” Flannery O’Connor
We need to follow the truth wherever it leads, and the answers to the clergy-predator problem will never be found in any institution that seeks to protect ‘the institution’ at the expense of the innocent people that it exists to serve, in the Name of the Lord. We learned that in my Church. I hope the SBC does better than we did, before we finally woke up.
L’s,
I don’ think anyone here wants to “protect the institution” at the expense of children.
Frankly L’s the SBC has done better than the RCC about child abuse for as long as there has been a SBC. No one has found the bodies of dead babies between the walls of any of our buildings as has been the case with the RCC.
You quote O’ Conner:
“The truth does not change according to our ability to stomach it.”
As I have said to you before:
“The truth does not change whether your stomach can handle it or not.”
Do you have anything constructive to say here. If not, please go back into the bushes and continue to lurk. On another day you can bring out your attacks on biblical Christians. I will be more than happy to engage you then. Until then this comment thread is supposed to be about child abuse and how to constructively deal with it in our culture and the SBC.
L’s, thank you ahead of time for your cooperation in this matter. it is greatly appreciated.
No need to ‘engage’ any of my comments, C.B., and please
feel free to not even read them if they annoy you personally.
I am not offended whether you do read them or you do not read them.
I myself sometimes read your comments and sometimes I don’t read them.
It’s a free country. Civility is always appreciated in any case, but I do however understand if you have to ‘vent’.
No hard feelings. Do as you please.
L’s,
I just won three dollars form a friend. I told him that when I said I had to go, you would comment immediately.
You are so predictable
Now stay on topic L’s or get back in the bushes and continue to lurk.
See you later. And thanks for helping me with the three bucks!
Hi C.B.
Glad to help. Three dollars is three dollars.
You can do a lot these days with three dollars.
Let me know when you want to pull this again, and I will comment on cue.
Um yes. It does. It has to. That’s why it’s a national base.
Sorry, my reply above was to answer Bess’ question.
Perhaps it is best to just consider churches dangerous places for children where perps are largely protected.
CB said not to mention Gaines but I have to ask why not? He is the poster boy for what not to do when you have a pedophile on staff as a minister. He is a classic example of what is wrong with the SBC on this topic.
The SBC is afraid of Trial Lawyers if they dare do any sort of tracking of perverts in the SBC.
Perhaps we could just admit the world us a dangerous place for children. This summer i was in the emergency room twice in a nine day span with two of my youth (broken arm and sliced thumb). If we just kept our kids at home maybe they’d be safe. And the broken arm happened at a church camp which shows you churches are not a safe place for kids.
Bess,
On the youth mission trip this year we had a broken hand. (a youth boy got mad and hit a tree) We also had a broken foot. (a boy kicked a shower door) We also had one boy robbed by a person of which he was giving ministry.
You are right. The world is a dangerous place. But what we did not have this year was a youth being sexually abused by a staff member or volunteer worker. We did everything possible to assure that nothing like that would happen and it did not.
I was at church one time where a woman declared she didn’t believe in all these “trips” because those youth boys sometimes rape youth girls. She really didn’t want the churching spending money on any youth trips.
My husband and I talked about the statistical odds that you have the three kids you probably end up in the ER x number of times through the course of child rearing. Where you have kids – stuff happens.
I never been on any kind if youth trip where I didn’t feel very strongly Satan trying to attack. You go right to the front lines doing that kind of work.
A-Men.
Therefore, you prepare for everything and go loaded for bear. (or should I say, serpents:)
As prepared as you think you are – you still get shocked at convoluted crazy stuff thrown at ya. I had a couple people think I was crazy ( no comments from the peanut gallery) cause I could just bust at gut laughing st some of the junk that happens. How can anyone not see the tricks Satan was trying to pull.
I gotta go. I’ll check back in and I’ll be praying you can keep this conversation on track CB
CB…whenever my husband and I took youth on trips, I was always there with the girls, and he the boys. I slept on the floor, in front of the door’s entrance to ascertain the girls could not go out, or any predator could enter. We must protect our young people–even at our own discomfort.
I am totally against any youth going on trips where they must stay in a room without an adult sponsor. If they can’t get enough sponsors to protect our kids, then we need to forego the trips. and adults in my opinion, should be married, and preferably a parent. that parent does not have to stay in the same room as their own child. Kids are going to be kids. And they are going to try and get away with everything they can. it is our responsibility to oversee them. It is a church responsibility–not just a pastor’s or a youth minister’s. We pledge it everytime we have a baby dedication. It’s important that we each live up to that. selahV
SelahV,
Our vocational Youth Ministry Team Leaders consist of a man and his wife. Both are above 35. He has a D.Ed. in education and she a B.A. All of our volunteer Youth Team Workers all have had training (16 weeks). No one is allowed to work with youth on a regular basis without training. Everyone has had a criminal background check.
And you are right: “It is a church responsibility–not just a pastor’s or a youth minister’s.”
Matt,
OK, I’ll bite.
Gaines is a Mega-church pastor. Therefore, everyone would assume he is knowledgeable of all things “church.” That is a wrong assumption. It is obvious he was ignorant of the mandate in TN to report such matters to Law Enforcement.
The same thing is true of far too may small, medium or large church pastors. They are just plain ignorant of how to handle these situations.
It is here that the SBC should make a strong effort to educate churches and church leaders about child abuse and how to handle it.
Now, if a pastor has been taught and does have knowledge and fails to act accordingly, he needs to be fired from his post, because he sis too stupid to lead people as a shepherd of God’s flocks.
“It is obvious he was ignorant of the mandate in TN to report such matters to Law Enforcement.”
Who has determined that?
Was he punished for violating the law by not reporting what he knew to the authorities? Was he held accountable BY ANYONE ?
L’s,
Now that is engagement of a sort. Nonetheless, in hopes that you will really engage the issue I will respond to this litle set-up of yours, but probably not as you expected.
L’s if you read my comment completely you will also notice that I said:
“….if a pastor has been taught and does have knowledge and fails to act accordingly, he needs to be fired from his post, because he is too stupid to lead people as a shepherd of God’s flocks.”
OK L’s, let me ask you a question. Do you know Steve Gaines personally? You are right L’s. You do not know him personally. Thank you for an honest answer.
Most people who know Steve Gaines believe him to be a fairly intelligent. Probably not the sharpest knife in the drawer, but fairly intelligent nonetheless.
Also, most people who know him would agree that he would not purposely break the Law, especially such a law as the one he broke. Therefore, what happened? Probably Steve was full of himself, thinking he was capable to handle the situation alone, because after all he “is the Pastor.” Thusly, he got in over his head, trying to handle something that was no longer his to handle. A crime had been committed and he was supposed to report it upon it coming to his attention.
He did a stupid thing and I believe, based on knowing pastors that he acted in ignorance. Because as I said earlier, Gaines is a Mega-church pastor. Therefore, everyone would assume he is knowledgeable of all things “church.” That is a wrong assumption.
The same thing is true of far too may small, medium or large church pastors. They are just plain ignorant of how to handle these situations.
Therefore, the Convention needs to do something to help bring awareness to churches and vocational ministers as to how they are to handle a case of child abuse when it is brought to their attention.
So did Steve Gaines admit to knowing that a subordinate pastor had abused/molested his own child?
I’m lost here.
“Gaines is a Mega-church pastor. Therefore, everyone would assume he is knowledgeable of all things “church.” That is a wrong assumption. It is obvious he was ignorant of the mandate in TN to report such matters to Law Enforcement.
”
What about his ignorance of 1 Tim 3….as a mega church pastor?
CB, I think “Matt” is related to “Joseph”. That trial lawyer line is ver famaliar.
I know Bess.
I kinda suspect the same thing. And I tell you what, if we are right, that person is just one sick puppy who needs a lot of help.
Matt,
That is a question you should take up with him. This dialogue is about child abuse and what to do about it. I have given you my honest opinion as to why Gaines did a stupid thing relating to child abuse in the local church.
His theological and biblical positions are not the subject of this post. I don’t have a dog in that fight today.
Now, Matt, talk to us about how to curb child abuse in the local church. It is a big problem. We all, who are part of local churches, need to address it. It ain’t gonna go away.
Matt,
Something else:
Not all “churches dangerous places for children where perps are largely protected.”
The church I serve is not. The church wherein Bob Cleveland is in fellowship is not. There are many more. You only hear of the failures. You do not hear of the successes.
Many perps have been stopped dead in their tracks (literal in some cases) by smart church leaders and members before they harmed a child or have been dealt with properly after it was revealed as to what the did.
In addition, many churches make sure abused children get the necessary support and help they need.
CB, see how it goes? Start a conversation that doesn’t include a database and look what happens. Churches just want to protect child abusers and are afraid of trail lawyers thus only care about money. Some would rather destroy an important discussion btainstorming ideas which don’t include a database.
I know Bess.
It is disheartening. I had hoped Debbie would join in the discussion. I had hoped others would do the same.
“Matt” wanted to talk about Gaines, but seemingly nothing else.
But I will say this. Child abuse is a real problem. It must be addressed. Churches and church leaders are going to have to come to grips with the problem and become intentional in dealing with it. Men are going to have to stand up and say, “NOT ON MY WATCH!!” and make good on that if the need arrises.
Anecdotal at best.
Claims of “My church is safe” because I serve there is anecdotal and is a viewpoint which breeds complacency and an environment in which something is happening or could happen.
How up to date are your policies?
Background checks on EVERY volunteer and worker?
Accountability groups in place?
Do you have a good rapport with the local authorities?
Do you meet regularly with parents and listen to their concerns?
How often do you meet with your Sunday School, Preschool, and childcare leaders and teachers?
How have you adapted and/or changed your policies and procedures over the years/decades at your church?
How often do you encourage rotation of leaders and volunteers to prevent situations of “Well, I KNOW him/her…”?
Bill,
Your questions are the reason so many churches fail.
Those questions must be addressed and on a regular basis. That is the dogged footwork of it all.
Nonetheless, it is the dogged footwork that must be done in order to best protect our children.
Bess:
You said:”Perhaps we could just admit the world us a dangerous place for children. This summer i was in the emergency room twice in a nine day span with two of my youth (broken arm and sliced thumb). If we just kept our kids at home maybe they’d be safe. And the broken arm happened at a church camp which shows you churches are not a safe”
And this comment above by you has what to do with child abusers? Sounds to me like you are just blowing off this issue. Sounds to me like it is not a serious issue to you.
Am I interpreting you wrong wrong, Bess?
I guess some in the SBC feel very strongly about continuing to do what we do in the SBC as it relates to this issue–little to nothing.
Tom Parker,
How does the church of which you attend provide protection against child abuse and what is the prescribed procedural policy in the event that such does occur?
A national database sounds good. But a national database would require the SBC to transform itself into a true denomination. It would require a clerical and administrative hierarchy such as the other denoms have. As it stands now, a national database would be simply a volunteer resource. We can’t make churches submit to it, and we can’t require churches to check it. And we have no way to hold churches accountable for not using it. (no, disfellowshipping won’t do it). Most churches in the SBC are small, rural churches. If they are like mine, most are completely unaware of the SBC other than some place we send money for missions. (in fact, I suspect most are unaware that much of the money they send already does not go to missions).
The research that goes into determining a “credible accusation” would have to be in person, on the ground investigation. Google searches and email won’t cut it. Where would qualified investigators come from? The resources necessary to investigate such accusations would be phenomenal. Now the expenditure of resources to protect children is well worth it, but the questions arise: Do we have such resources? Can we get them (and from where)? And most importantly, are we duplicating existing mechanisms? Let’s face it, a national SBC database would be populated mostly with the “only accused”, not the convicted. Databases of the convicted already exist. Credibly accused does not equal guilty.
“But a national database would require the SBC to transform itself into a true denomination.”
Bill Mac, you are right.
You have probably been part of the SBC for a while as have I. We both know you are right. We also know that the SBC will never become a denomination.
Strange, because outsiders, as well as just about everyone that I know, regard the SBC as a denomination already.
Perception is reality.
Perception is reality is true Bill.
Nonetheless, the SBC is not in actuality a denomination. Nor is it a denomination legally.
But, child abuse is a real problem in the SBC. Therefore, we have to handle it within the structure we have. If we do not, we will not be of much help to the churches we serve, nor to the children God has placed under those church’s watch.
Oh, I agree with you because the SBC doesn’t have several characteristics associated with other denominations.
However, I would like to point out that our leaders often speak on behalf of the SBC and don’t make claims in that we aren’t a true denomination.
Child abuse is serious business. I agree. However, I think the problem is partially solved if churches are educated on hiring practices and if leadership from previous churches are willing to say why this person left a prior church rather abruptly. I’ve told stories that a former youth pastor at one of my previous churches was let go due to allegations which were made, never pursued, and he was finally caught and imprisoned about three churches down the line.
Pastors have to be willing to fully explain the situation to other churches thinking of hiring someone.
Bill,
Pastors and churches do need to be truthful. I have had some brothers who stated to me that they did not “want to say to much” about a former staff member.
In those situations, we just let the potential staff member know that his former pastor would not tell us the truth about his tenure in the former church so the negotiations were at an end.
Churches need to quit protecting devils. For that matter so should SBC entities, but that is for another post.:-)
I disagree Bill. As has been pointed out, a national data base is for names. Yes, there would need to be the positions you have mentioned. There would need to be enough people to keep it up to date, but we would not need to be a “official denomination” to do this. It would not interfere with autonomy. The churches would be free to use the information or not. They would still have to take many of the individual precautions mentioned here, which there are some great suggestions. I really like what Bob Cleveland mentioned his church was doing, and so many other suggestions. I hope they get implemented. A database will aide not take away from us doing these very suggestions.
The SBC knows where these people are now. They do have a database in place now so to speak. It’s just not made public always, and we have a list of names of ministers at different churches now. Look up a church on the SBC site, you find the names of the minister, the staff. We could have this database in place in short order. It’s just a matter of making what the Convention knows already public.
I have not joined the conversation because I work. I was working today. I read some great conversation(albeit a few exceptions) today and am greatly encouraged, and will be more so if they are implemented and not just talked about.
The reason that I pushing database like a dog to a bone is that it is going to take more than individual churches implementing all of these suggestions, on top of that it is going to take a cooperative effort which a database provides, to borrow from Hilary Clinton, it’s going to take a village cooperating with each other with information to combat clergy child abuse.
The reason that I pushing database like a dog to a bone is that it would allow you to sling more mud over people against whom you have a theological grudge. Face it, Cough-man, you know you don’t care JACK about truth. This is just something else you think you can pin on SBC leadership.
First innocent man or woman on that public list and the Southern Baptist Convention will cease to exist as we know it.
You’ll have defamation lawsuits flying in from every corner of the country as lawyers line up to take down what the country views as the largest denomination this side of the Catholic church.
Think of the Public Relations disaster of a denomination which goes after and destroys innocent men and women, especially if it’s revealed that the claim came from jealous and angry congregants or even a fellow minister hoping to knock off a rival. Every news outlet would love to bring down an entity which doesn’t have the resources that the entire Catholic Church can bring to bear to defend itself.
The Southern Baptist Convention will have to spend millions to fight off the civil suits which could have been millions spent to support missions and/or operations both here and abroad. Think of the settlements involved as well.
Sure, the database would be an excellent tool for churches to use, but get just one innocent person on that list and it all comes crashing down.
You asked me why I changed my mind about the database and this is why. I went and talked to some of my friends, a couple who work for the Boy Scouts of America in their national office and I also talked to a friend of mine who is a lawyer who primarily handles civil disputes and divorces. My lawyer friend said that a case of a client wrongfully accused of child molestation would be a suit which he would relish especially against an entity the size of the Southern Baptist Convention though he also expressed his personal dismay at having to file such a suit in the first place since he’s a fellow Southern Baptist. My friends from the Boy Scouts of America told me that they only really track convicted folks but rely on government entities to handle the grunt work of records and tracking. They told me that they just handle comprehensive background checks and investigate any serious claims while combining all this with a zero tolerance policy.
Also, even if the database were to be approved, you are talking hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars to design, build, integrate, maintain, and keep accurately updated each year. You’re talking a staff dozens of people. Just paying 35K plus benefits for 24 people runs almost a million dollars a year and that’s if they willing to work for that cheap because we’re talking IT and even possibly some paralegal type jobs which pay significantly more. There has to be more cost effective ways to approach this issue.
Remember, one innocent man…
First innocent man or woman on that public list and the Southern Baptist Convention will cease to exist as we know it
And that is the ONLY reason Cough-man supports a national data base.
So, “what the SBC is all about” depends on the Almighty
dollar? I don’t think so.
The SBC is community of churches cooperating together to carry out the Great Commission. When people insult it claiming Southern Baptist only want to protect the “institution” it shows their ignorance of the purpose of the SBC. Of course most of them are not really that ignorant but they can’t admit publicly that they don’t really care about the Great Commission and still claim to be a Christian. The SBC does NOT have unlimited resources and you cannot insure against the amount of liability a database would provoke. Think about car insurance – do car insurance companies line up to insure high risk drivers?
Thanks Joe.
I’m here trying to make an important point about the problem of instituting a national database and you have to flitter it into someway of trying insult Debbie Kaufman.
Seriously?
Go punch some kittens. I’m trying solve problems.
Joe,
You are a smart guy. We could use your help here. Lay down the sword. Come to the table. Let’s talk.
Debbie,
The SBC is not the “village.” It is a resource entity to local churches to help those local church fulfill the Great Commission.
If anything is”the village” it will be local, well informed churches working together in community to curb child abuse as a grassroots effort.
Now, the SBC and its entities should help in every way possible within the parameters of its structure. If the SBC unites over missions them surely “The Children of the Secret” should receive the full force of the available help the SBC can muster.
Because if there ever was a growing mission field in this country and abroad, it is The Children of the Secret.
Debbie,
Bill is right. I tell you that if any list is ever made public that has people on it who were not convicted in court of a crime, the SBC will cease to exist.
Now, in all truth, if the SBC did cease to exist, you and I and every other member of local churches out here are still accountable to protect the children of whom God has placed under our watch.
Jeff Thomas:
You said the following to Debbie K:This is so sad. Debbie you have done more harm than you can ever imagine by your negative attitude. I hate to even respond.
I think you have shown that you are not interested in working with others, you just want others to do exactly what you want them to do. You are no better than the fundies you write against. You are narrow minded and only want cooperation as it works with you.
I am thru with this topic. In fact, I am going to take at least a 24 hour break from this site, maybe more. I am disappointed that we cannot come together for the children.”
Were have you shown that you would be willing to work on this issue?
Tom Parker,
Please tell us how does the church of which you attend provide protection against child abuse and what is the prescribed procedural policy in the event that such does occur?
Nobody needs permission to bring to a vote that every worker paid or volunteer gets a backgroung check. Find one that is reasonable then do it. If someone needs to be removed from a position and refuses, then its now the pastor’s call alone unless he’s the problem then the church body gets it. The problem will be churchs (clubs ) that won’t comply because “Rebecca Sue” needs that ministry and does so well in it and will commit suicide if she’s removed ; and, the “club” which is sick themselves and has the votes refuse to take action. This is where the SBC needs to step in and dis- associate themselves from this group or convince them what the correct way is and why they should respond. SBC can be pursuaded with the right tools but zero x zero = zero. Forcing is not possible but but not associating with them removes the immediate problem. They’ll comply.
You’d be surprised how the mindset of your volunteers, workers, parents, and the church as a whole recognize that if you want to work with our youth/children, then things are expected of you.
Without it being expressed, you find that people who feel truly safe and secure in their church will serve like there’s a higher standard, will attend like there’s a higher standard, and will act like there’s a higher standard.
You’ll also find that an overwhelming majority of young parents list childcare as their number one concern above their own SS class and the preaching style of the pastor. Parents want their children taken care of, not just looked after.
And all it takes is for one parent to feel that their child is in danger and then you’ve got a brushfire to beat all brushfires.
I’m honest enough to admit that I based my current church almost purely on the condition of the childcare facilities because the pastor and the SS classes were almost a wash between the three churches we were looking to join.
Personally, Fellowship Church and Northpoint Community Church are the standard as far as childcare and children’s ministry are concerned in my opinion. Not everyone can have a staff of thirty+ just for the children, but the patterns of excellence and having that mindset are free. You can disagree with Ed Young, Jr. and Andy Stanley all you want (and I do at times), but their childcare is second to none.
I don’t anything with admitting that childcare is a top consideration when looking for a church home. When we’ve transferred the children/ youth departments were things we looked at in depth before we would decide to join a church. Of course my husband would also make an appointment with the Pastor to determine that church fit us theologically and the church was committed at all levels to our theologically leanings – no rogue SS teachers allowed. The first responsibility of safety for a child falls on the parent just as the responsibilty for a child’s spiritual foundation belongs to the parent. Parent education is a part of educating churches on this issue.
Bill,
I really believe that any church of any size can place policies and actions in place to help protect children from abuse.
Would you agree?
Well yeah, I agree.
I also think that it would behoove a church to visit other churches and see what they’re doing and talking with their staff and seeing what works, what doesn’t, how did you get here, etc.?
There are quite a few churches that handle childcare with the utmost of excellence and I refer to NPCC and Fellowship as two of the standard bearers in this particular issue.
Thanks for saying that Bill. Any church staff or volunteer leaders willing to go and visit with other churches is a church being intentional in its efforts to curb child abuse.
Also, if church staff and volunteer leaders begin to ask each other what they are doing about this problem, there will grow a natural “air” of accountability.
Local accountability is a powerful force in any effort to make change in any human endeavor.
Bingo.
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
Jack,
If Rebecca Sue abuses a child, we need to put her in jail. If she commits suicide while in prison, her blood is on her head.
If she does not commit suicide and the prison population does what it normally does to a “short eyes” then she will wish she was dead anyway.
Alright,
Ideas.
Database
Pros? Cons?
Investigative Body
Pros? Cons?
Educational Program for local churches and associations
Pros? Cons?
Any other substantive ideas? Let’s hear ‘em.
One thought I had is our pastor has the local police on his speed dial – anybody ever comes to him with something criminal he’s calling it in. Also to make sure kids are where they’re supposed to be when they are supposed to be.
Also at our church we have men who patrol the building in pairs at all times when the church is open to the public. It’s amazing how many strange people wander in.
It’s stupid to say if “rebecca Sue” abuses a child we put her in jail when she has said that if she is removed from her job or from the church she will kill herself and no one takes action. In the middle of this is the pastor looking to do the correct thing who is threatened. What does a person have to say,” I’m going to do such & such on a certain day at a certain time” and then we remove them? She’s telegraphed her abilities with her remarks at least to those smart enough to hear.
No Jack,
It is not stupid to say Put Rebecca Sue in jail if she abuses a child.
It does not matter what she say she is going to do or not do.
One of the problems in all of this is cowardly pastors who are fearful to do the right thing no matter the personal cost.
To refuse to put Rebecca Sue in jail is not only “stupid.” It is also cowardly.
CB you miss it entirely. I’m saying she has telegraphed she’s a risk and needs to be dealt with now; not if she does somthing she shouldn’t be put in Jail.
Jack,
Earlier, some of us were talking about “inclinations.” When we see people with inclinations that would give reason to believe they would be harmful to the local church in any way, a pro-active approach is, in my opinion, the best way to deal with the issue.
Jack, I will illustrate this in the best way I can. I have never been a real farmer. Dreamed about it, but never got to do it. But I have helped some farmers with their “vermin” control.
If I was a farmer and found sign that foxes were around my chicken house at night I would deal with it even if they had not gotten any of my chickens yet. For I know, it would only be a matter of time.
I would set up in a good spot away from my chicken house so the fox would not know I was around. I would take my rifle mounted with my Starlite scope and wait. When the fox came. I would solve my problem. That is pro-active and it saves chickens.
Seriously Jack, when we see people in our churches with evident inclinations, we need to be pro-active. Far too often, “reactive” is just too costly.
One particular issue that comes up working childcare is divorced parents or separated parents.
I know of several incidents where a one parent took their children to church and the other parent showed up, checked that child out of church, and took off. Some times the offending parent just wanted to see the child, it takes one google search to see that this doesn’t always end well.
The worker’s response? It was the child’s parent.
At Fellowship, if you lose your tags that identify you as the parent of a child, you don’t get your child until the local authorities, i.e. the police, etc., can prove that you are the parent. Period.
This is a great policy that I have no problem supporting.
A-Men,
I got caught off guard once in a separation deal kinda like you describe. I just really blew the deal.
Had it not been for a cousin of the husband seeing what was about to happen, a woman on the run from an arrest warrant for attempted murder would have taken her little girl and fled the state.
I was really stupid that day long ago during a VBS. I learned a good lesson, but it could easily have been a far too great a cost.
Oh my, don’t even get me started on VBS! If youth work is working on the front lines then VBS can be like working in the enemy camp. Lifeway VBS gives ideas on security for VBS and I think they talk about the divorced parent thing. Gotta make sure the kid gets released to the right person.
I really messed up that day Bess. But, by the grace, I desire never to do such a stupid thing again.
Bess,
I do think LIfeWay is trying to help. I think they would do more if a proper mandate from the SBC was given them. Thom Rainer is a good guy. He loves Jesus and he loves his wife and kids and now, grandchildren. I believe Thom would try to do the right thing given the opportunity from the Convention level.
Well folks, I gotta go. God bless and may God help us to do what we need to do as Southern Baptists to protect our children and curb child abuse in the local church.
Hey Bill, Thank especially for sharing. Maybe you could be the guy some SBC entity calls on to spearhead what needs to happen to protect our kids.
JUst don’t become a bureaucrat if they call you.
Wait…what?
Did we just have a constructive discussion?
CB, may God bless you today.
Joe Blackmon:
You said:”First innocent man or woman on that public list and the Southern Baptist Convention will cease to exist as we know it
And that is the ONLY reason Cough-man supports a national data base.”
What an ignorant comment!
Tom Parker,
There are out of work lawyers all over this country hoping we develop a national data base and put men and women on it who have never been convicted of any form of child abuse. They will race to the court house with any wrongfully accused person they can find in hopes of become the new “Rainmaker.”
CB: These names would be from those whose time has run out. They cannot be prosecuted but are known to be guilty either by a preponderance of evidence or by confession. Both exist. SBC has those names(as far as I know), they know where they are. The BGCT has these names, they know what churches they are serving in. These would have to be credible accusations. The names are there.
It doesn’t matter.
The first time either an accused or innocent man is put on that list, you’ll get lawsuits flying in from all over the country.
We operate in a judicial system where you are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. If you were to put someone who was just accused, or worse yet, someone who is accused and is found to be wholly innocent, then you put the entire Southern Baptist Convention culpable for slander and defamation lawsuits.
What you’ve done now is destroyed an entire convention of good, honest, and innocent people for nothing.
If you want the database limited to just those who have been convicted of sex crimes or actual child abuse crimes, then you might have some ground to stand on, but these crimes will pop up with any background check run through both a reputable company AND is the comprehensive package. For sex offenders, state and federal governments already have that on file and is easily accessible to anyone.
When you want to include accused people, then you got legal problems.
Case in point, Debbie Kaufman, I’m filing an accusation that you inappropriately touched some children last time you were at your church. Baseless? Yep. But you’re now accused and I’m putting your name on the list for everyone in the Southern Baptist Convention to see. Your name and probably picture will now pop up alongside convicted sexual predators and convicted child molesters anytime that someone from the Southern Baptist Convention wants to check you out when you want to volunteer at functions, conferences, or even at your home church. How does that make you feel?
Do you see my point?
If there are any large organizations with databases that include just people accused of certain actions, let me know so I can go ahead and file suit. I’ve got a lawyer friend looking to retire early.
Christa left this comment on my blog and I thought it important enough to leave here. This is in response to the vote taken in 2007 for a study and the answer in 2008 by the excom that no database due to autonomy of churches.
Where’s the study???
What actually happened is that the Executive Committee had so little respect for the will of those messengers, and for Southern Baptists’ own professed “bottom-up” polity, that they never even set aside any budget for a legitimate study. When a reporter asked them about their budget for the study, “no one could provide one.” And Sing Oldham finally admitted that there was no budget set aside for the study. (“What would Jesus say?” Nashville Scene, Feb. 14. 2008)
http://stopbaptistpredators.org/article08/what_would_jesus_say.html
Basically, their so-called “study” was little more than a group of guys sitting around reconfirming for one another what they already thought and saying “we don’t want to do this.” But where’s the study? That’s what every Southern Baptist ought to still be asking. Where’s the study? Where are the transcripts of any committee hearings? Where are the transcripts of testimony from experts, outside professionals and other faith groups leaders who might have appeared before a legitimate study committee? Where is the information that was gathered on how other major faith groups assess the credibility of clergy abuse accusations that cannot be criminally prosecuted? Where is there any gathering of testimony from clergy abuse survivors who might have told of their experiences in trying to report abuse? Where is there any evidence that anything remotely resembling what most ordinary people would call a legitimate “study” was actually done?
And now, over on the SBC Voices blog, we see still more Southern Baptist men railing about how the “database” idea has already been considered and is dead and how everyone ought to stop talking about it. But if that’s so . . . where’s the study?
“… providing a safe place for children who as adults remember what happened to them, sorting out what happened to them . . . . “
Debbie, you are so right on this. Southern Baptists should start by providing a safe place where people can tell about what happened to them as church kids, and where they can be heard with compassion and care by people who have the training to do so. This is essential.
It is essential BOTH for purposes of prevention and also for purposes of ministry to the wounded. Most clergy child molesters have more than one victim and most victims are incapable of speaking about it until much later in life. These realities mean that one of the best ways to prevent clergy abuse in the future is to institutionally listen to those who are trying to tell about abuse in the past.
Hearing the cries of the wounded is also the first step toward ministering to those wounded by clergy. When people try to reach back to the faith group of their childhood and go to local, state and national denominational leaders to report the sexual abuse of a minister, only to be told “all churches are autonomous,” enormous ADDITIONAL harm is done.
So Christa Brown gets to dictate how this is discussed by the SBC. What happened at the SBC in 2008 when the Executive Committee gave their report? Were the messengers upset? Did the messengers refuse to accept the report? Was their wailing and nashing of teeth over how the report was handled? Anybody present that day who can tell us how this report was received?
Christa Brown is definitely someone to be listened to. Yes Bess. She was a victim of clergy sexual abuse, and it was horrible, she survived. Barely. She’s still surviving. Barely. She has done the homework we should have done. That we should be doing. She also has experts she has consulted. She too is an attorney. She’s the expert we should be turning to for a start on this. Yes, that is what I am saying.
Debbie,
This is going to hurt you and may cause you to be angry with me. And that is certainly not my goal. Here is the truth whether you like it or not. For that matter it does not matter who likes it. or does not like it, this is how it is.
Christa Brown will never gain an audience an audience at the SBC level sufficient to make any change relating to abused children. She has zero credibility due to the method/methods by which she has approached the issue.
What ever is done to help abused children at the SBC level will be done without Christa Brown’s presence at the helm. Its just not going to happen.
Yeesh, CB. No offense, but my impression is that Christa Brown has tried to meet and discuss this with SBC leaders without respecting the hierarchical authority structure for its own sake or having willingness to drown in red tape while waiting for something to be done. Those are her twin sins. And for this, she has been ostracized. Then, adding insult to injury, after successfully transforming her into an outsider based on being ostracized, her new, unmerited and inescapable “outsider” caste is held against her with the intent to mute her message and diminish any possible influence she might have otherwise had. Sorry, but that’s how it looks to me.
I don’t doubt that the people here are doing what they can for the SBC, but sometimes needed surgery has to be radical in order to be truly effective. I am not qualified to make that call, and I admit it, but I believe people like Christa Brown and the other victims she has mentioned are. Those who have suffered this unspeakable evil deserve a free microphone and a sympathetic ear. But perhaps that will never happen in the SBC, who knows?
CB: The only tactic you seem to know how to do is to attempt to discredit the messenger. You have totally bypassed the question she asked, one that you, others should have been asking in 2008 and didn’t and you continually go after the messenger. I for one am getting tired of it.If nothing else they owe her a listening because she was abused by someone they kept moving up on the ladder. They owe her that much. To listen.
She’s credible, she’s a strong woman who has been very polite when seeking to meet with SBC leaders who have literally turned their back on her. Physically turned their back on her. Heck. They didn’t need to do a study, Christa already has the information which all they had to do was verify it. No, that’s not why she’s not listened to. And they also aren’t listening to the messengers who voted overwhelmingly in 2007 for this study to be made. The leaders, excom, blew off the messengers. And the messengers let them. They do not want to admit, for whatever reason, that the problem is as big as it is. But it’s not because of Christa, unless their view of women is so low that any woman who has anything to say that is not SBC correct is not submissive and therefore not listened to and that would make them look bad, not Christa.
You talk about her demeanor CB, but I could play for you some pretty rough talks given at the Convention by men, two I can think of right off the bat, they pulled no punches in these speeches and were hurrayed and applauded. So tell demeanor has something to do with it and I’ll show you that the SBC is not made up of men who have had anyone say that about them. We aren’t going to wear a dress, fix our makeup and come as a gentile Southern Belle. She is a successful attorney, her communication skills and demeanor are well refined.
Debbie, I broke my rules to comment so apologies to all. Listen to CB, he is trying to help. I am not saying the SBC leaders have been perfect. Read that three times so you will understand my point. The point is it really doesn’t matter, and if you keep focusing on it—you will never be able to do what you want to do for children. Right or Wrong—Christa has a perception problem. Read that again (Debbie) Its hurting her BIG BIG TIME! You and her and keep talking about how bad the leaders are but that is like dropping water into the desert. Again, I am not saying the leaders do not need to make changes—I am saying that your current approach is not working among leaders. For instance, when I disagreed with you —you told me to tell that to the next victim I see. @ that point, communication cease to exist.
For the sake of the children, give pointing fingers at how the leaders are horrible and don’t listen. Move on, work at it from another angle. Let the leaders be the leaders. They come and go.
Christa, needs to go where people will listen. Take an inch where an inch is given. Speak, educate, and be humble.
I doubt this will help, and I am quite frustrated that it appears to be the same old same old. Do it my way or else.
What ever is done to help abused children at the SBC level will be done without Christa Brown’s presence at the helm
Thank God for that.
And why is no one asking where is the study that was voted for overwhelmingly by the messengers in 2007? Why aren’t you asking that Bess/Joe?
Debbie, I just asked what the response at the convention was in 2008. And no Debbie I’m not going to join in your idolatry of Christa Brown. If there were fifty lawyers in a room and one of those lawyers was Christa she would be the only one saying “oh this’ll be great for the SBC. Believe it or not there are lot of lawyers and quite a few judges in the SBC – none of them are gonna agree with Christa because they actually believe in the purpose of the SBC which is to carry out the Great Commission. Debbie get over playing the victim card. One in four women on America will be sexually abused in their life- they don’t all going around demanding your worship because of it.
Seriously CB you think you can carry on a rational conversation who lives in some alternate reality?0
Bess,
All I know at the end of the day is; The need is worth the effort and I had to try.
Who knows? Maybe something good came of it. Maybe something good will come of it. I shall pray so anyway.
Bess: I think you need to hear the Gospel. Your words definitely show me you need to Gospel possibly more than those who know they don’t have Christ.
Debbie, if anyone needs Gospel that would be you. People who really deeply truly know the Gospel don’t throw at as a debate tactic when they lost the debate. When your irrational responses fail you Debbie you always throw out “you need the Gospel”. Debbie you And Christa can keep on ranting about your database til Jesus comes back. Nobody who can effect change is going to listen. Neither you nor Christs will have any say in what happens on this issue within the SBC. The reason why? Cause when Debbie doesn’t get her way she resorts to idiocy and “you don’t know the Gospel”. But by all means continue your rants. Tell Christa to continue her condescending insulting post of “the SBC only wants to protect their coffers”. As CB said efforts are being made not because of Christa or you but in spite of you and Christa. DR Randle said 300 post ago that Christa and others would rather rail against the SBC from the outside than try to work for change within the system. He also stated that Christa was for a database or nothing – his points have been proven over and over and over and over. Continue proving him right Debbie.
Bess:
Let’s simplify it for you. THERE WAS NO STUDY!
Tom Parker, I think you need things simplified WHAT WAS THE RESPONSE AT THE CONVENTION IN 2008? Seems like somebody’s idol had an issue with how Morriss Chapman addressed the issue that year. Were the messengers in agreement with ol Morris? Were you there Tom Parker?
So are you saying you know nothing of this subject matter or the Convention? You have no idea what occurred? Is that what you are saying, yet you are commenting? OK. You obviously were not there no followed it on the internet. So you have no idea what we are talking about when it comes to the Convention is that what you are conveying Bess?
O.K. if the concern is putting people on a list that have not been convicted , then lets start with people that HAVE BEEN convicted. Spousal Abuse in some places is a high class mis-demeaner or I would have said any “Felony” convictions. But this is simple stuff done by an attorney once you tell him what you want to achieve. I still like the pastor/minister association self supporting to run this with two pastors and after numbers are worked the a “small” charge to belong unless some can’t pay etc. Could also keep books on churchs and make sure ALL pastors have health care and an open bank acct. to pay a pastor when one of these jerkwater club churchs fires a pastor. This will give the pastors the nerve to stand up straight and preach & pracyice the way they have been taught. Because I think the SBC is going to resist this if for no other reason than the present time of limited income does not afford any new ventures.
“I think the SBC is going to resist this if for no other reason than the present time of limited income does not afford any new ventures.”
Jack,
I hope and pray you are wrong. I pray the SBC does whatever it can do within its structure to help curb child abuse in local churches no matter what the cost.
Bess:
You are trying so hard to change the subject. Who are you anyhow? May we call you Bessie?
Tom Parker, YOU may call me Bessie. Debbie likes to call me Joe. And no it’s Not changing the subject pointing at that this issue was addressed at the 2008 convention. Why no answer to that question I wonder?
And now I have to go so I can get some other things done so I can get to bed in good time tonight.
Debbie K:
You said to Bess-Bessie:”So are you saying you know nothing of this subject matter or the Convention? You have no idea what occurred? Is that what you are saying, yet you are commenting? OK. You obviously were not there no followed it on the internet. So you have no idea what we are talking about when it comes to the Convention is that what you are conveying Bess?”
He just wants to change the subject.
Tom, nice to see you posting under this name again. Where are you teaching again?
Look at the 2007 Child abuse resolution. All the right words. Very nice. But it accomplishes exactly nothing. (which, by the way, is true of all SBC resolutions. Resolutions are a waste of time and resources.)
This is because the SBC has no power to tell the churches to do anything. Look at the wording. Urge. Renounce. Recommend.
A voluntarily used national database of maybe-offenders is going to be ineffective at best and harmful at worst. It is a way of seeming to do something without actually doing anything. It would be a duplication of resources that already exist elsewhere, created by people who know what they are doing. It’s like adding one of those cheap multipurpose tools to a toolbox of good wrenches that we aren’t using. When SBC churches are using every resource at their disposal, and it isn’t enough, then we can revisit the database issue. I can sympathize with its proponents and I’m sorry for the vitriol directed towards them, but it isn’t going to happen.
I will say this: Dismissing the idea that SOME Southern Baptists have enabled and protected abusers is wrong. I think it is clear that it happens all too often. I don’t think you can carry that accusation to the SBC as a whole, as some seem to. But it does happen. Those people need to be in jail too, along with the abusers.
Bess, Bessie, or Joe:
You said:”Debbie, if anyone needs Gospel that would be you. People who really deeply truly know the Gospel don’t throw at as a debate tactic when they lost the debate. When your irrational responses fail you Debbie you always throw out “you need the Gospel”. Debbie you And Christa can keep on ranting about your database til Jesus comes back. Nobody who can effect change is going to listen. Neither you nor Christs will have any say in what happens on this issue within the SBC. The reason why? Cause when Debbie doesn’t get her way she resorts to idiocy and “you don’t know the Gospel”. But by all means continue your rants. Tell Christa to continue her condescending insulting post of “the SBC only wants to protect their coffers”. As CB said efforts are being made not because of Christa or you but in spite of you and Christa. DR Randle said 300 post ago that Christa and others would rather rail against the SBC from the outside than try to work for change within the system. He also stated that Christa was for a database or nothing – his points have been proven over and over and over and over. Continue proving him right Debbie.”
Attack the messengers everytime especially if they are women.
Tom Parker despite whatever delusions Debbie has to hold on to to be able to sleep at night – I am a woman. Women of the SBC are sick of women like Debbie pretending that she speaks on behalf of all SBC women. When the messengers are filled with such vitriol against all things SBC they’re not exactly relavent messengers of anything buy hatred. Every single crusade of the month Debbie picks up has one thing in commen – it’s always a vehicle for her to spew her hatred of all things SBC. It consumes her this hatred.
When you flippingly write that one in 4 women are sexually abused, get over it. That is going to be my response Bess. That was probably the most cold statement I have read here on this comment thread.
If the women of the Church call for justice for the unprotected, how is this going to ‘destroy’ a Christian organization?
There is a NEED for changes to be made to close the ‘loop-holes’ that now allow predators to navigate from Church to Church with ease.
These existing ‘loopholes’ are ‘passive’ green lights to these predators, and they know it.
Seems to me, that the ones who stand to hurt the SBC most are the ones who want to keep those loopholes open.
The ‘deal with it’ people need to be confronted with this truth. Currently they can’t be confronted without their reaction being vitriolic, because in that confrontation, they are faced with facts that overwhelmingly demonstrate the need for closing the SBC door to predators. Hence, attack the messengers in an effort to discredit those facts.
But those facts cannot be discredited.
There isn’t enough vitriol on the whole planet to cover over the damage of what the SBC has permitted to happen because of the SBC’s loophole. The damage is done and will likely continue, until there is an end to the keeping of those secrets that feed the innocent to the wolves.
Take another look at the vitriol of those who want to maintain the status-quo. There is something there that needs to be examined more closely.
christine, Men and Women are calling for justice, but we disagree with Christa and Debbie on a database. Please get it right.
Every single crusade of the month Debbie picks up has one thing in commen – it’s always a vehicle for her to spew her hatred of all things SBC
Well, what do you expect. Look at where she goes to church.
Tom, Glad to have you back posting under your real name. Where do you teach?
Jeff Thomas:
You said to me:”Tom, Glad to have you back posting under your real name. Where do you teach?”
This comes from someone who uses Jeff T as his real name–give me a break.
The nicest answer I will give you is–IT IS NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS WHERE I WORK AND WHAT MY JOB IS!!
I do not see you asking any of the other posters such personal questions.
Take your intimidation tactics elsewhere. I’m not playing your little game.
I think there are some great idea here. Some really good ones. But, Christa needs to be in this for several reasons. She is a good source to speak for the victims as hundreds have emailed her telling them their story. This is just among Southern Baptists or former Southern Baptists(former because they were treated the same way Christa is and was) and she knows a lot of information. I think that those CB and others mentioned are good to help with this, hammering it out.
Second, Christa’s situation happened in a SBC church. We need to include her in this in order to show our willingness to acknowledge her abuse. Instead of pummeling her not one of you have acknowledged her abuse by Tommy Gilmore. It is something she has lived with for a long time. Many years. I was hoping that would also be acknowledged. She is a victim/survivor of not only Tommy Gilmore’s abuse for years, but she has been victimized again on this thread. Over and over again. Acknowledgment of her abuse has not been in one comment. Read her book and her blog to see the devastating affects this had and still has today. We need to embrace her, listen to her, she speaks for herself and for hundreds of other sexual clergy abuse victims. We need to first and foremost listen to the victims. Hear their pain, help in healing that pain no matter what or how long that takes. We also have to do everything and anything to make sure that not one other child suffers.
It is why I show Christa’s credentials, she is well qualified, and we need to listen to her no matter what you think of her demeanor, you need to read her story and then you will understand. Her words are also her pain. Deep pain that has yet to be recognized by the very ones who hurt her. Us.
Oh the great Debbie has condescended to declare that some good ideas have been offered. Not one of these ideas has come from Debbie as all she has to offer is her idolatry of Christa and her hatred of all things SBC.
No Debbie a victim does not entitle anyone to demonize and spin hatred toward those who disagree with them. The SBC is full of survivors of all types of heinous things. The difference is they’re not all screaming “look at me look at me I’m a victim and and expert.”
We are to be Christ to the world, and we can’t even be him to one of our own(Christa was Southern Baptist, devoutly so, love God with her whole heart before this happened).
Debbie nothing you spew shows Christ to anyone. You are so full of bitterness and hate that there is nothing close to Christ in your words.
August 25(yesterday) 2010
ST. LOUIS (ABP) — A Southern Baptist pastor in St. Louis faces between five and 15 years in prison on a charge that he inappropriately touched a child younger than 4.
http://www.abpnews.com/content/view/5636/53/
So had this pervert ever had a charge against him before? If not how would the registry have helped the church protect against him?
Apparently the 2nd guy you mentioned has done it before and the church called him anyway.
No one should seek to minimize the amount or the effect of a child being abused. The argument is whether a registry would really stop a church from choosing an already convivcted abuser as their next pastor.
Again, yesterday, August 25 2010
ROCK HILL, S.C. – A pastor who spent nearly a decade in a federal prison is facing child sex abuse charges again.
Johnny William Cabe, 50, turned himself in at the York County Sheriff’s Office on Tuesday morning to face sex charges.
Cabe is the pastor of Riverside Independent Baptist Church on India Hook Road.
He’s charged with committing a lewd act on a child under 16, contributing to the delinquency of a minor, and unlawful practicing of medicine.
These men (if guilty) belong in jail. However a national database would not have prevented either of these incidents, but the common sense precautions put forward in many, many of these comments would have. If these men are convicted, they will be added to an official database of convicted sex offenders.
Nope, these are his first sex abuse charges.
He first went to prison for fraud and embezzlement from a religious investment scam.
You lose credibility when you can’t even cite the stories properly.
Lowercase bill: You are correct that this arrest was his first for a sexual offense, but Debbie cited it correctly (at least the article I saw). It would appear that it is the article itself that was messed up.
Link: http://www.shelbystar.com/news/cabe-49270-boy-church.html
Debbie K:
Bess who says he or she is a woman is simply wanting to ignore this real problem in the SBC. I sincerely ask is the attitude of some in the SBC on this issue conncected to the 2000 BF&M’s position on women.
Nope. It sure isn’t. But you, Don Quixote, and Cough-man sure would like folks to think it is.
Oh, and it’s not the BFM’s position on women–the BFM is simply stating what the Bible clearly teaches so your argument is actually with the Bible.
Hey Bess , With all your personal attacks on Debbie Kaufman do you remember the names of these people in SC and St. Louis? Debbie hasn’t done anything and one of these guy has already been to prison. We’re smart enough to know thew difference between guilty and not guilty and I’m sure we’re all willing to wait for a trial before we condemn them – again for one. Lets not convict Debbie Kaufman of speaking out. I for one would probably never have known. Some can be more passionate than others for a host of reasons
Joe B:
When you say “what the Bible clearly teaches so your argument is actually with the Bible.”
You are just being __________, Joe.
And remind me–you belong to a SBC church? Yes or no.
And why all the name calling? It is so much like someone who curses, it shows a very poorly developed vocabulary.
Tom, LTB, which is it? Where do you teach?
Bessie:
You said:”Oh the great Debbie has condescended to declare that some good ideas have been offered. Not one of these ideas has come from Debbie as all she has to offer is her idolatry of Christa and her hatred of all things SBC.”
Who is being condescending here:
Let’s see:
You accuse Debbie of idolatry
You accuse Debbie of hating all things SBC
I don’t know but you sure sound condescending towards Debbie K to me.
I’m very suprised that Jeff T has not asked you who you are and were you work.
He might want to personally thank you for your words toward Debbie K.
I not ask Bess because she doesn’t pretend to post under two names.
How many names is the person in question posting under?
There is much similarity in ‘Bess’s comments to another blogger, and that is the problem. The vitriol is noted. The contempt is at the same level. And the themes are almost identical. The signature phrases are ‘borrowed’ from those of another blogger.
And the objects of the vitriol are the same.
That is likely why some have a question concerning the identity of the commentator ‘Bess’.
It’s not that difficult to understand when you notice the similarities that ‘come out’ in the comments, a little bit too often to allow for the reader to give the benefit of the doubt completely.
I am not AT ALL suggesting a ‘conspiracy theory’ that there is a pool of ‘sound bites’ and ‘strategies’ from which certain bloggers have been advised/ encouraged (wink-wink) to use to attack the work of the women of the Church.
I think we can see the imprints of ‘personality’ in comments without too much difficulty.
Tom posts under Tom and another name LTB or something like that. I think it is funny he is trying to imply Bess is Joe when he did the same thing earlier.
Christine, What is funnier is knowing this is getting under Tom’s skin. I like Tom even if he comes across as a mean old man who teaches someone out east.
I don’t know who Bess is and I don’t care. The reality very few know each other on this list, so go with the flow.
Mr. Jeffrey:
You said to me:”Tom, LTB, which is it? Where do you teach?”
Here is the deal my good buddy–people like yourself bring out the worst in me with your juvenile games, there must be something wrong with you, but I certainly am not qualified to diagnose you from a far–so I simply bid you farewell.
I shall simply ignore any comments by Jeff T (Thomas), (Tiger), (Temper), whoever you are in the future.
For all the fuss and bother over whether Tom and LTBare the same person, I would be veryinterestedto check Bess’s and old Joe Blackmon’s IP address. I don’t know about you all but I feel a very similar vitriol rolling off of both keyboards
As a good sport I bought the Mavis Bit from Bess; who identified itself as the name of her grandmother.
Maybe I was too naive and trusting.
I’m kinda leaning toward Champion and BDW; won’t be surprised if further inquiry turns up it’s a Snopes.
I don’t know who Bess is…but I’m willing to wager some change that Bess is not a newcomer to SBC blogs and has been around for quite sometime posting under a different name that most are likely familiar with.
Big Daddy Hair Weave—You are probably right, but who cares except Tom T. Parker. I think he will take out on his class. WE ALL should get back to the discussion at hand. I think it has run its course.
There appear to be two camps 1) Pro-database 2) Anti-database. Both groups are for doing some to address children who are abused.
Sorry all, after I made my post I saw L’s comments above regarding Joe and Bess. We posted almost on top of each other, although it is interesting that we both came to the same conclusion and used some of the same verbage. Full disclosure, I am not L’s!!!
Hi JIM,
LOL
I’m always in SO much trouble. You were very wise to give that disclaimer to protect your good reputation.
By Michael Mee
St. Clair News Aegis (Alabama)
August 16, 2010
Pell City — Gregory “Lee” Bowman, 30, of Pell City, pleaded guilty to second degree sexual abuse on Monday.
Bowman had previously worked for Eden Westside Baptist Church as the Director of Health and Wellness. He resigned from that position last fall.
Second degree sexual abuse is “sexual contact with a child between the ages of 12 and 16 years old.”
Pleading guilty to the misdemeanor, he avoided being convicted of second-degree sodomy, another count he faced after his arrest in February.
Bowman will serve six months in the custody of St. Clair County Sheriff’s Department on a 24 month split sentence. He was given credit for time served, according to court documents. Circuit Judge Jim Hill ordered Bowman to turn himself in on Aug. 23 to begin serving his time.
http://www.newsaegis.com/news/x223858398/Guilty-plea-in-sex-abuse-case
SBP Note: Eden Westside Baptist Church in Pell City, Alabama, is shown as a church affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention.
http://stopbaptistpredators.org/article10/gregory_lee_bowman3.html
Jim, Can you prove it?
I don’t know, has L’s ever posted on the greatness of TX Rangers baseball?? Going for the sweep tonight v the twins, cliff lee on the mound, butcan the rangers score for him?
LOL
this is funny
Jim,
I was reading your post and stopped at “butcan” and started laughing uncontrollably.
falling out of chair laughing
Fat fingers, small keyboard on the iPhone …. I seem to miss the space bar. I surely don’t mean to cuss on an SBC blog ( or do I??)
Jim Champion:
BoSox John Lester’s wife went to her HS Jr. prom with my nephew.
Would love to see them contest each other somewhere along the line in this year’s playoffs, but may not be the BoSox year.
Love to see Johnny Damon get back with them, where he belongs.
And or TBay’s Price vs. Cliff Lee with 43 in the stands; could be a good fall Season this year.
The Leon Culberson story in DAvid Halberstam’s The Teammates; Great Baseball story. Turn up a copy and you’ll be glad you did.
Well, I spoke with some more friends of mine, this time a couple of them who are ministers at my home church here in Lousiana.
They said that they would be open to educating the staff, church leadership, and even the congregation on child abuse prevention and also in reworking the almost negligent rules and bylaws of the church which pertain to child abuse, how to report, and what to do in specific circumstances.
They then asked who in the area could help with this.
I have no answer there. Do any of you?
Bill, what State? CB and I had this coversation yesterday – it would be good for State Conventions to have “experts” who have all the resources consolidated.
The first place you can start is the insurance company for the church.
Next you can go to the local association and then up to the State Convention.
If you have a larger church which has a church adminstrator or just a really good associate, those churches are likely to have detailed written policy that they may be willing to share.
Next you can ask your local police – police often have programs that do for local schools.
And you might try a local day care center which should have a detailed written policy.
Stephen Fox – Granny Mavis’ sister were Leota and Ima Rae. Granny used to say of het sisters “they never had half a brain tween ‘em.”. Reminds me of some posters here.
Good one joebess
BessieJoe if you must
No, they were wondering who does this for a living. Are there experts out there who go around to companies and such and do this as their job?
SBC employees seem to have some knowledge, but they want someone who has been at the vanguard of this issue.
Bill, as I said CB and I were discussing this yesterday and I’m more convinced that there is a need for this. The guy I know does this as part of a bigger ministry to churches, but he’s in Midwest. It would cost a bit I would imagine to cover his expenses to go to LA.
Gotcha.
I wouldn’t mind if the state conventions or a group of state convention came together and hired a couple of people and that’s what they do. They go to churches, evaluate their facilities and practices concerning childcare and volunteerism, provide some classes and forums on child care and child abuse prevention, report to the pastor and senior leadership their findings, making suggestions on how to improve existing practices, parental feedback that could actually help pastors and leadership make future plans and such. They can also report back to the state conventions on their overall findings each year which could help give conventions a better idea of the pulse of their churches.
I think that this would be a brilliant idea.
Now, who would I send this sort of fleshed out idea too?
My friend has begun this ministry/business on his own and he’s having trouble keeping up. I’ll bet in this economy if you looked around you could find someone who needs work and has the skills to put this kind of information together. You’d be suprised or maybe not at how messed up some churches constitution and bylaws are.
And Bill this kind of business crosses denominational lines. A lot of non Denominational churches need this kind if help too.
Bill, your State Convention has a forum. You might post some questions on that. A lot of the bigger churches with websites have their constitution and bylaws on their sites. I know like John piper’s church has a lot of stuff. Some of the Founders Churches have a lot of information in regards to constitution and bylaws. It’d sure be nice if someone had all this information consolidated. I know someone for Missouri and Illinois but not so much down south.
“Debbie nothing you spew shows Christ to anyone. You are so full of bitterness and hate that there is nothing close to Christ in your words.”
I’m doing my best to look for Christ in what you “spew” and in your words. I only hear bitterness, hate, and condescension. It’s difficult to grasp that you might believe you aren’t showing your fangs when you speak to the particular ones you have so much contempt for.
You may be too self absorbed to realize it but others besides myself are trying to make you aware of how “unChrist like” (plain nasty in my opinion) you speak.
People read blogs. Some people read who are trying to decide if Christians have anything different from those who don’t claim to be believers. Even if those you are speaking to aren’t your “weaker brother”, they are out there reading your words full of bitterness and disrespect.
Jim Champion:
You said:”For all the fuss and bother over whether Tom and LTBare the same person, I would be veryinterestedto check Bess’s and old Joe Blackmon’s IP address. I don’t know about you all but I feel a very similar vitriol rolling off of both keyboards”
People like Jeff T seem to not have a problem with Bess= Joe Blackmon. I guess Jeff T is comfortable with such a double standard. Maybe Jeff T even looks up to Bess=Joe Blackmon. Joe B certainly is a nasty one.
Bill: I asked Christa your question about resources in Louisiana and her reply was this:
1,It breaks my heart that Bill is in Louisiana because what immediately comes to my mind are two men, now in their 40s, who now live on opposite sides of the globe but who were both sexually abused as kids by the same Louisiana minister in the same small Louisiana town. And the man is still in a church there. They have tried repeatedly, on different occasions at different periods of time, to report the man to both Louisiana denominational officials and to Southern Baptist officials in Nashville. (I personally saw a couple of the emails back and forth to Nashville.) They got zero help. They were patronized and preached to. One of the guys (who is a couple years older than the other one) says that he also tried to report the abuse to his pastor years ago when he was a late teen (i.e., a few years after the abuse). He got zero help back then as well. And here’s the thing . . . I heard from these two men separately, and on my own, realized that I had two different people talking about the same church and the same minister. Given that there’s two of them, can you imagine how many more there might be? And yet, despite their enormous efforts, no one does diddly squat. Who’s going to help those two men? Who will even look into their allegations? Who will give a hoot? Who among Southern Baptists will even try? And why should anyone believe that Southern Baptists will be able to prevent the clergy-perpetrators they don’t know about when they do nothing at all about the ones they’re specifically told about?
[I think these two particular guys have finally given up . . . totally . . . it’s sad . . . but there are many, many more similar stories all across the country. These kinds of cases are typical . . . i.e., cases in which people try years later, as adults, to report what was done to them as kids, and when it is too late for criminal prosecution. Educational efforts at the local level may give church-goers a feel-good sense that they’re doing something, but the question remains: Who among Southern Baptists will even hear the stories of men like those two from Louisiana (who as adults got very far from Louisiana and from all things Baptist)? Who will give a hoot?
2. I’ve been told by former church members that my own perpetrator was on the committee at their prominent Florida church to come up with policies/procedures related to preventing child abuse. That church probably came up with a fine policy manual. Heck . . . my perpetrator could probably give talks on the subject. Policies/procedures within the church are good, but they will never be enough. Child molesters are very, very good con-men. They wear masks. There must be some outside resource (i.e., outside the church of the accused perpetrator) to which reports of clergy sex abuse can be made with some reasonable expectation that they will be objectively assessed.
3. While educational efforts are worthwhile, they will never be even close to enough. Humans have a strong instinct for denial when ugly allegations involve someone they know and trust. For most people, educational efforts will not remove that instinct for denial, and when ugly allegations hit home, that instinct will kick in. This is why an outside resource must be available for the reporting and assessment of clergy abuse allegations that cannot be criminally prosecuted.
4. G.R.A.C.E. is one such organization that Bill might find useful.
http://www.netgrace.org/
Boz Tchividjian helped to found it. He’s Billy Graham’s grandson (and I probably spelled his name wrong), and a former sex-crimes prosecutor.
Debbie, I mean this sincerely. Ask Christa, what she would have wanted Nashville to do in this case? They can’t fire the guy. Were the police not contacted?
I disagree with her third assertion. People do report them, and while we don’t want to believe them—we do treat them very serious.
If her assertion is right a database would not help because people would not want to believe that pastor john doe could have done that….
I’ve been told by former church members that my own perpetrator was on the committee at their prominent Florida church to come up with policies/procedures related to preventing child abuse.
Translation–Only a national database will save the children. A church couldn’t possibly take care of it themselves.
Oh, just in case it isn’t apparent, I’m mocking you.
Joebess your amazing wit continually has me shaking my head in total agreement with you. You are truly an amazing individual and a role model to us all!
Christa’s third point bothers me because basically what she is saying is that we want people who have not been convicted of a crime, to be consider a guilty anyway. I do not want a database where people are not found guilty in a court of law.
I think it is time for me to move on from this topic.
Some Copy Pasta to reinforce my point:
First innocent man or woman on that public list and the Southern Baptist Convention will cease to exist as we know it.
You’ll have defamation lawsuits flying in from every corner of the country as lawyers line up to take down what the country views as the largest denomination this side of the Catholic church.
Think of the Public Relations disaster of a denomination which goes after and destroys innocent men and women, especially if it’s revealed that the claim came from jealous and angry congregants or even a fellow minister hoping to knock off a rival. Every news outlet would love to bring down an entity which doesn’t have the resources that the entire Catholic Church can bring to bear to defend itself.
The Southern Baptist Convention will have to spend millions to fight off the civil suits which could have been millions spent to support missions and/or operations both here and abroad. Think of the settlements involved as well.
Sure, the database would be an excellent tool for churches to use, but get just one innocent person on that list and it all comes crashing down.
You asked me why I changed my mind about the database and this is why. I went and talked to some of my friends, a couple who work for the Boy Scouts of America in their national office and I also talked to a friend of mine who is a lawyer who primarily handles civil disputes and divorces. My lawyer friend said that a case of a client wrongfully accused of child molestation would be a suit which he would relish especially against an entity the size of the Southern Baptist Convention though he also expressed his personal dismay at having to file such a suit in the first place since he’s a fellow Southern Baptist. My friends from the Boy Scouts of America told me that they only really track convicted folks but rely on government entities to handle the grunt work of records and tracking. They told me that they just handle comprehensive background checks and investigate any serious claims while combining all this with a zero tolerance policy.
Also, even if the database were to be approved, you are talking hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of dollars to design, build, integrate, maintain, and keep accurately updated each year. You’re talking a staff dozens of people. Just paying 35K plus benefits for 24 people runs almost a million dollars a year and that’s if they willing to work for that cheap because we’re talking IT and even possibly some paralegal type jobs which pay significantly more. There has to be more cost effective ways to approach this issue.
Remember, one innocent man…
Sorry.
I’d rather think of one innocent child.
And I’ll Copy Pasta this one as well:
It doesn’t matter.
The first time either an accused or innocent man is put on that list, you’ll get lawsuits flying in from all over the country.
We operate in a judicial system where you are innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. If you were to put someone who was just accused, or worse yet, someone who is accused and is found to be wholly innocent, then you put the entire Southern Baptist Convention culpable for slander and defamation lawsuits.
What you’ve done now is destroyed an entire convention of good, honest, and innocent people for nothing.
If you want the database limited to just those who have been convicted of sex crimes or actual child abuse crimes, then you might have some ground to stand on, but these crimes will pop up with any background check run through both a reputable company AND is the comprehensive package. For sex offenders, state and federal governments already have that on file and is easily accessible to anyone.
When you want to include accused people, then you got legal problems.
Case in point, Debbie Kaufman, I’m filing an accusation that you inappropriately touched some children last time you were at your church. Baseless? Yep. But you’re now accused and I’m putting your name on the list for everyone in the Southern Baptist Convention to see. Your name and probably picture will now pop up alongside convicted sexual predators and convicted child molesters anytime that someone from the Southern Baptist Convention wants to check you out when you want to volunteer at functions, conferences, or even at your home church. How does that make you feel?
Do you see my point?
If there are any large organizations with databases that include just people accused of certain actions, let me know so I can go ahead and file suit. I’ve got a lawyer friend looking to retire early.
I think these two posts pretty much put the concept of a National Database to rest.
It will not happen and I will do everything in my power to see that something this destructive in its potential to innocent, honest, good people of the Southern Baptist Convention never sees the light of day.
Now, if you are willing to discuss other viable and legal options to combat and eradicate child abuse and sexual predators in the Southern Baptist Convention, I will be more than happy to not only weight and discuss ideas, I’ll also put what we come up with in front of my friends and contacts which have connections from my small town church all the way to top level desks in Nashville.
Thousands of Catholic priests have been removed from active ministry and less than 5 percent have ever been criminally convicted of anything. Yet, I’ve seen plenty of instances when Southern Baptists are plenty willing to point their fingers at Catholics for having a problem with clergy child molestation. At least Catholics are now working toward removing clergy with credible accusations from active ministry, and almost all dioceses in the U.S. now have review panels in place and an office to which abuse survivors can go.
Ditto for Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Lutherans, etc. Are their systems perfect? No, far from it. But at least there is an office to which those who want to report clergy sex abuse can go.
Baptist denominational leaders claim their autonomous polity prevents them from establishing systems to remove men from ministry in the way that other faith groups do. Okay. That’s the reason for asking Baptist denominational leaders to at least step up to the plate and provide congregations with more objective information about men who have credibly accused of sexual abuse. We’ve been asking for LESS than what most other major faith groups now do. We’re not asking that denominational leaders revoke the men’s ordinations or “defrock” them; we’re simply asking that denominational leaders provide an outside resource for the objective assessment of clergy abuse allegations and for the provision of information to congregations. Empower congregations so that they can at least have more objective information on which to make their decisions.
Even if regional and/or national denominational leaders cannot remove men from ministry, they can at least start keeping records on credible accusations. How would anyone know whether a particular Baptist minister has been accused of sexual abuse one time or a dozen? Who’s keeping records?
Bill: Regarding the Boy Scouts, you might want to look at this article from the Seattle Times:
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003849260_boyscouts23m.html
Though the Boy Scouts may not have a publicly accessible “database,” it’s obvious that they at least keep regional and/or national in-house records of “allegations.” They have removed 5100 scout leaders for “sexual abuse allegations.” Note: They aren’t talking about criminal convictions. And in the past 15 years alone, they have kicked out scout leaders at the rate of “once every other day” based on sexual abuse allegations. Where are there any similar in-house records for Southern Baptists? Regional? National?
If Baptist don’t want to have a “database,” then what about just keeping systematic in-house records?
“Innocent until proven guilty” is a presumption of the criminal law that is applied when a person’s liberty at stake. It is a standard that is applied (with its various evidentiary rules, etc.) for determining whether a person should be deprived of all liberty and put in prison. It is NOT a standard for whether a person should remain in the pulpit. It is not a standard for assessing whether a person should be allowed to remain in a position of such high trust.
I’ve already said this (8/27 at 1:20 am), but am reiterating so that, hopefully, this “reply” correction will be sure to follow immediately after my original statement. I meant to say “hundreds” of Catholic priests. In this country, it’s about 800 who have been removed from active ministry and less than 5 percent criminally convicted.
Christa, Thanks for posting, I had given up on this. We are in disagreement on the data base, but hopefully we could work together despite our differences on that issue. It might be difficult because a national database is a dead issue for me.
I have a question for you since you are a lawyer, you mentioned that innocent until proven guilty is for those who are about to lose their liberty and be put in prison.
Does this also apply to civil cases? Is the standard of innocence this there?
Thanks again for discussing these issues with us.
Jeff
Oops … meant to say “hundreds” of Catholic priests. In this country, it’s about 800 who have been removed from active ministry and less than 5 percent criminally convicted.
Christa – All of a sudden Jeff has turned into Mister Nice Guy with you as he wants to get on someones “team” that knows how to reason. The Catholic Church realises that they were successfully sued so many times because they had such good records people could follow. But, that – your figures -800 removed & 5% convicted is probably the reason they will be successful in curtailing at minimum this problem; whereas the SBC I think is dragging its feet for a number of importantant reasons none of which does any thing but allow this problem to fester. With the way people comment on here I wonder if some aren’t perpertrators seeking to stifle any advancement to a solution. I know one thing and that being this talk stuff has to stop and some action taken even if it’s wrong.
Jack, We all go overboard, but your comment about perpertrators is out of line…way of out line. In fact it illustrates why many people are against a national database because of people like you who use it to win arguments, and not protect children.
Christa:
Thanks for your contribution to the awareness of sexual abuse in churches. I believe that awareness is a big key, and the willingness of churches to act when abuse is discovered.
Those issues are common across denominational lines, and are also pervasive in other institutions in the country when adults have supervisory capacity over minors (e.g. schools).
The prescription you ask Southern Baptists to take up is not one that I can support for the reasons I stated early in this blog postings. If you go back and read my early comments, you will understand where I am coming from.
Your last comment seems to reveal a misunderstanding about the nature of the SBC, which may be the heart of the continued disconnect.
Although I have raised several objections and concerns (the purpose of the SBC being missions, the compentency of the SBC, the efficiacy of a denominationally maintained database vs. professionally operated databases that exist currently, likely false positives and negatives in the database, the security of contributions that churches make to the SBC for missions etc.), the biggest disconnect seems to be a basic understanding of the SBC and its relationship to churches.
The SBC has no power over churches. So, in your recent comment, when you ask SBC Leaders to “Empower congregations so that they can at least have more objective information on which to make their decisions”, it perpetuates a misunderstanding.
The SBC cannot empower churches to do anything. The SBC merely collects money and sends it on to missions agencies, seminaries and missions related agencies. The churches empower the SBC, not the other way around.
In a legal sense, the convention operates only at its annual meeting. When the meeting is over, in a very real sense, the convention is at rest, from a legal standpoint, until the churches reconvene. An administrative staff exists to carry out what the churches in the convention voted to do, and there is the Executive Committee that acts as the convention “ad interim.”
I don’t want the SBC keeping records of any kind on ministers – whether they are molestors, have committed other crimes, are financially delinquent, have done a poor job pastoring other churches. And I certainly don’t want the SBC keeping records on the members of churches. I suspect that some abuse is committed by lay people who volunteer in ministry. The purpose of the SBC is not to keep track of ministers or congregants.
You compare the SBC with other religious denominations and the Boy Scouts. Those comparisons are wholly inappropriate because of the nature of those organizations and why they exist. All of those organizations (or nearly all – I did not check the list) have some supervisory authority over churches. So Catholics, Presbyterians, Methodists etc. have Bishops or Presbyteries that interact with churches and have some authority over their operations (e.g. set policy, call pastors, approve pastors and doctrine etc.)
The Baptist Churches simply pool their contributions and put them into something called the SBC.
I understand that you are wanting the SBC to change its nature and take this issue on. But that is up to the churches. The SBC administration was wise not to recommend that it take on maintaining some sort of investigatory and/or reporting authority. If they had recommended it, the churches would not have to participate. If the churches did not participate, then the database would be of no value.
I know that our church, for example, would not participate in a database program run by the SBC. We do background checks now on all staff and volunteers who work with children. We would not report information about our staff or our members to the SBC because we would not want the SBC to be having that or keeping that kind of information because that is not why we give money to the SBC.
We would, on the other hand, immediately and forcefully report any and all allegations of abuse to the law enforcement authorities for further handling. Just not the SBC.
Also, if the SBC were to take this on, we would give our missions money around the SBC to make sure it went to missions and not to pay for the mistakes (false negatives and false positives). We would still give it to SBC entities, probably in proportion to the allocation budget adopted by the convention. We would give a token amount to the SBC to retain our voting rights. But we could not in good conscience give missions money that would be unnecessarily at risk. When we say to people who give to our church, “Give to missions”, we mean it. We do not say, and would not want to say, that their money is not safe because it could go to pay for the mistakes at SBC headquarters in failing to properly maintain some informational database that it had not business doing in the first place.
I feel that our church is fairly representative of how many churches in the SBC would feel about this. And for a database to be successful, a large percentage of participants are necessary.
Finally, I have suggested before, and have never really heard a satisfactory answer to the idea that a group of people who have a heart for this issue could not start their own database and ask churches to participate. The SBC could make churches aware of the new database. I would be for that. Churches that liked the idea could pay a small amount each year to maintain it (instead of siphoning off money given to the SBC for missions). At $10 per year, with 40,000, that’s $400,000. I would think that would be a sufficient budget, but that’s just a guess. I have no idea how much money and effort it would take.
But rather than putting that on denominational offices, why not simply start a database run by people in the SBC.
Have you thought of that? What would be your objections to such a system?
I hope and trust that you will receive this comment with the sincerity with which it is made. I do not wish you any ill will.
Have a great day.
Louis knows I have my problems with the SBC, basically over the way Inerrancy was used as a Wedge issue in the SBC that set things up for the political Mess Bruce Prescott and Brian Kaylor continue to examine; not to mention Randall Balmer on a bigger platform.
But for the issue of this blog, this crusade of Christa Brown; I think Louis makes a lot of sense.
Have any of you done a study? The kind of study needed to make such a decision? A study that the messengers overwhelmingly voted in 2007 and if you have could you produce such a study?
The goal is to prevent child sexual abuse.
I think this is the report from 2008 SBC
http://www.sbc.net/PDF/2008ReportSBC.pdf
Louis does the report say that in order to even do something like a database that the bylaws of the SBC would have to changed?
Jack:
I am sure that you are a bright person and a delight. But the last sentence of your last post reads, “I know one thing and that being this talk stuff has to stop and some action taken even if it’s wrong.”
Surely you don’t mean that? Take some action, even if it’s wrong?
I cannot go along with that. I find nothing in the Old or New Testaments or any of the commands of God our Christian conviction that encourages people to act – for the sake of acting. Even if what they do is unproductive or counterproductive.
In fact, I believe the Bible speaks against that kind of thinking.
Let’s act. But let’s act in a wise way. In a way that is likely to really help and not be counterproductive.
Maybe you had better look into criminal investigation procedures and start taking advice of people in that business. The SBC has made a mess of a lot of things on their own. Sometimes a method which smokes these cockroaches out and gets them running is good – very good – so yes I did mean it and still do.
There’s no place in the Bible that says don’t catch the bad guys. When he says he’s sure I’m a bright guy that’s another mistake he made. You and he are certainly due your opinions but until something is started I don’t know that anybodys opinion on this blog is even required. Assumeing anything can be a problem and too much can be a big mistake. Most people on here are not using their real names. Why? I’ve stated why I only use my first name and in a time that condition will pass. I will stand up for what I say and I have said some things and will be able to say more – and stand behind it. I’d like to see this blog require full names and then more people would act responsibly and the interactions would be far more productive.
Stephen:
Thanks. What do they say about blind hogs and acorns?
And you say some good things, too.
Have a great day.
Jack:
I agree with you on criminal investigations. That’s good stuff.
I just don’t agree with do anything, even if it’s unproductive or counterproductive. Surely there are productive options.
I, also, agree with you on the name thing. I use my first name, as you do.
Take care.
Debbie:
Great to hear from you. I am sorry that you get so much flack on some of the blogs. I haven’t followed all 635 comments. Don’t know if it’s happened on this one.
My objections to the database are based on principles. They are not subject to (supported or disproved) by empirical studies.
It is like saying, “I am opposed to churches forming and owning a bank because that is not the purpose of the church.” And then someone saying, “But have you conducted a study?” I am opposed on principle. Not on empirical data.
I am opposed to the proposed database for the reasons I have stated. None of them have to do with empirical studies.
Wait, one does. I have questioned the efficacy of an SBC database. I raise that question based upon, 1) the lack of training of existing SBC personnel in the field of sexual offender data collection and maintenance (I am assuming here, but I don’t know of anyone who claims expertise in the area currently employed by in the SBC offices), 2) the general performance of the prototypical denominational bureaucrat (o.k. I am being ugly, but not in a mean way), and 3) the belief that the FBI and various state agencies whose purpose is explicitly to maintain criminal databases have expertise in this area and will generally do a better job of collecting and maintaining this sort of data than denominational agencies.
But inasmuch as my other objections are based on theological and organizational philosophy issues, conducting a “study” would not deal with those issues and would be moot.
Debbie:
Also, wanted to say thanks for digging and posting all of the information of Ergun Caner. That was valuable to all Christians in the long run. I have never met the Caners. I am sure I would like them. And I am sure that we would agree on much.
But I think that they got carried away after 9/11 in attempting to address an issue that was pushed to the fore and about which they had some (more than the average Southernner) knowledge, but not nearly the knowledge they were claiming.
I am hoping that over time things will settle down on that and that everyone (the Caners included) will see that it is not a good thing to make claims that should not be made, even if they are done for what is believed to be a bigger purpose. And that if our bigger purpose is to share the Gospel with all people, including Muslims, that we are not helped by any untruths or careless statements, regardless of motive or perceived privilege.
Take care.
Thank you for this Louis.
The avenues to stifle, delay and forget bare many with the SBC who is professional at it and include “studies” , ‘referral to committees”, yearly delays while studying and of course “amending the by-laws. They have plenty of lawyers,parlamentarians as exhibited on the GCR – SBC – Johnny Hunt meeting. Hireing a criminal investiagative firm with written permission to get the job done will start the ball rolling and the cockroaches running. I left out “baffeling people with bologna” as a major delay tactic. You can’t beat a man at his job – count on it.
Tim:
It appears that the report says that the SBC Consitution and the SBC Bylaws would need to be changed to adjudicate any charges regarding sexual abuse, which I assume they thought would need to be done to allow the matter to be put in the database in cases where allegations had been made, but nothing formally proven. Also, changes would need to be made for the SBC to take any action against a church.
But in fairness to Christa and others, I think that they just want a database started and maintained. There are a lot of details that have not been answered, like, what’s gets in the database. I think that the issue of amending the Constitution and Bylaws addresses more the functions of authority of churches and what action the convention could take in cases of abuse.
Many of my arguments are based on the really the history and ethos the SBC.
Under any circumstance, the program statement or parameters of the SBC executive offices would have to change to allow for the collection and maintenance of this type of data. Not only the name of the perpetrator, but the person reporting, and whatever details might be necessary if a person found themselves on the list and claimed it was a mistake.
I have basically said that the SBC is a convention of churches that pool their money for missions. That’s not in a document per se.
If that is truly the case Louis. If that is all the SBC is, then why do they vote to disassociate with certain churches? The motions that have been passed, resolutions that have been passed are not about missions. Can you explain that?
I would vote to not place this in the SBC hands as there are too many “big shots” who would try and intimidate and control the direction. Unless of course this separate firm also has a way to insulate the SBC which all should love and not have aproblem with.
Jack:
That’s another good reason to leave it local – in the hands of the churches who should prosecute – no holds barred.
A separate non-profit, not controlled by the SBC, could be started and could offer its services to the churches. That would not cause any of the problems I have cited. And it would be beyond SBC control.
Of course churches would have to participate voluntarily. But that is true of the SBC proposed database. Our church would probably participate in a database set up by a non-profit for this purpose. We would not participate in a denominationally run database for the reasons I have stated.
Also this is not the priority but asuggestion has been made to get legislation passed ata State or Federal level. Richard Land could not and DID NOT support a Federal Hate Crimes Bill that passed into law which had to be created because the local governments wouldn’t prosecute “their own little darlings” so the Feds said “o.k. you won;t then we will” If Land won’t as a part of the SBC is not for hate crime legislation then how would he ever back child abuse which is harder to understand. Some of you guys want to talk like attorneys. Are You and what fields have you actually practiced .
If local governments won’t prosecute a person dragged behind a pickup truck in chains and dismembered which is kinda like abuse then how could we necessarily expect the local government in which these churchs reside to prosecute one of their favorites who is abusing children ?
Louis said: “The SBC has no power over churches.”
Empowering local churches is not the same as exercising power over them. Providing local churches with a resource for obtaining more objective information about their ministers is a way of empowering them. Providing local churches with a resource for safely sharing information about ministers is a way of empowering them. Providing local churches with information does not intrude on their autonomy.
The Southern Baptist Convention and state conventions provide local churches with all sorts of other information to help empower them in their ministries, and so they should also be able to provide information about ministers who have been credibly-accused of sexual abuse.
In fact, the SBC and many of the state conventions provide various sorts of “jobs” databases, both for helping ministers in job searches and for helping churches who are looking for new ministers. If the state and national conventions can help churches and ministers with job searches, they ought to also be able to help churches with such important information about those ministers as whether or not they have credible sexual abuse allegations against them.
Louis said: “I don’t want the SBC keeping records of any kind on ministers – whether they are molestors, have committed other crimes …..”
Sad. These are “Southern Baptist” ministers (i.e., ministers who work in churches affiliated with the Southern Baptist Convention). They are ministers who carry the “Southern Baptist” brand out into the world. Someone in Southern Baptist leadership should care about it and should want to facilitate the systematic communication of information about ministers who have serious and substantiated abuse allegations against them. This is a faith group with a shared sense of identity but no shared sense of responsibility for assuring accountability . . . that’s a dangerous combination.
Many experts, including the FBI and the National District Attorneys Association, recognize that the vast majority of active child molesters have never been convicted of anything. Furthermore, by the time most cases are reported, they cannot be criminally prosecuted. This means that, if Southern Baptists are going to rely only on the databases maintained by law enforcement officials, most Baptist clergy child molesters will continue undetected for years, and maybe forever, and will be able to church-hop with relative ease through the porous sieve of Baptistland.
Louis has talked before, on other blogs, about how the SBC doesn’t have the resources and the expertise to do what would need to be done in terms of assessing clergy abuse allegations and keeping records on them. But if the SBC doesn’t have the resources to keep records on its ministers, and to at least attempt to do a good job of it, why should he assume that someone else will be able to do it? Yet, Louis idly tosses out $400,000 as a possible budget for what it might take to have someone else start a database. Too bad there was never any genuine study that might have provided SBC officials with information about the realities of what it would take to start assessing the credibility of clergy abuse allegations in the way that other major faith groups do. Perhaps if the Executive Committee had actually conducted a study, and had actually consulted with outside experts and leaders in other faith groups so as to be able to compare what the SBC is doing and not doing with the approaches of other faith groups, maybe they would have some realistic basis for beginning to consider the financial costs. And of course, they should also consider the human costs of continuing in their current status quo.
And by the way, a “report” is not the same as a “study.” While the SBC has had no problem in funding studies to provide churches with information about appropriate salary levels for ministers, the reality is that there was never even any funded budget for a study about the feasibility of keeping denominational records on credibly-accused clergy. There is nothing that even resembles what most ordinary people would consider a legitimate “study.”
In one of our early letters to Morris Chapman, Richard Land, and Frank Page (letter of 9/26/2006), we specifically asked for the creation of “an independent review board as an auxiliary to the SBC, but with adequate and assured funding from the SBC” for the purpose of receiving and considering reports of clergy sex abuse.
http://www.snapnetwork.org/snap_letters/2006_letters/092606_southern_baptist.htm
At the time, it seemed as though there were many who viewed the very making of such a request as an insult. But it strikes me that perhaps it’s not so very different from the possibility that Louis has now mentioned: “a database run by people in the SBC” but not by the SBC.
That’s the way I had a pastors/ministers association operating whose members would be members of the SBC but this Assn. would not be connected to it and self supporting.
While a pastors/ministers assn could be viewed as foxes in charge of the hen house, I see it as self supporting and able to accomplish different services very beneficial to this group, churchs and the SBC.
Christa:
Thanks for your thoughts. You still have not really addressed the arguments that I make, but seem to engage in a lot of, “well, if the SBC can do this, it can do that.” If the SBC can study salaries, it can study molestation etc. That does not really address my concerns head on, and illustrates, in my opinion, why there is a continued disconnect in the discussion.
I don’t agree with your criticisms, so we’ll have to agree to disagree.
But one thing that we appear to agree on is that people in the SBC could start such a database. I would encourage that.
Since you and a few others are the point people on this, I would encourage you to consider starting it, or to encourage others whom you might know to start this.
It doesn’t seem that you have any objection to such a plan. I can see no objections to it. I don’t know why that would not be the more preferred course of action than having the denomination run and own the database, since the alternative does not come with the objections that I and many other Baptists have raised.
Take care.
I think Louis has a point
As I said before, I think it needs to be an independent review board but as an auxiliary to the SBC and with funding from the Cooperative Program of the SBC. Louis has repeatedly spoken of the problems and difficulties such a review board process would carry and of the risks associated with it. Those burdens and risks should rightly be borne by some entity, or auxiliary entity, connected to the SBC. These are, after all, Southern Baptist ministers we’re talking about. And these are, after all, people who were wounded by Southern Baptist ministers and who should rightly be received with compassion and heard within the faith community and have their allegations treated seriously. And these are, after all, Southern Baptist churches that need to receive information about credibly-accused Southern Baptist clergy.
Yet, Louis’s most recent statement seems just one more version of the oft-repeated take that Southern Baptist leaders give on this: “Not our problem.”
Christa, It is our problem, but I am against a database as your prescribed. Louis has offered a reasonable solution. BTW, You mentioned that innocent until proven guilty is only when someone’s liberty is at stake. What about in civil court?
Christa, I never said, “Not our problem”, nor can my comments even reasonably be construed in that direction.
Other than that unnecessary swipe, your last response is hopeful.
An independent organization would do fine. The recognition that some burdens and risks should not be carried by the SBC is an important principle that we all appear to agree with.
I can see no reason, or advantage, as to why it needs to be “an auxillary of the SBC” (I am not even sure what that means) or funded by the CP. The only auxillary of the SBC that I know of is the WMU. There is no advantage to it, and I can see plenty of disadvantages. Plus, I would not really want elected SBC officials having any say-so over the organization. It’s not a matter of trust. It’s just a matter of there not appearing to be any conflict of interest.
I believe the better way of funding is annual church contributions, directly to the organization. Running the money through the SBC does not help, and again, only creates a drain on CP resources and other possible problems that I mention. I think that there are enough churches and individuals in the SBC who would make a modest annual contribution to the organization.
The SBC can help by promotion. I truly believe that if an organization like this were started, and you and others wrote a letter to Dr. Frank Page and other SBC leaders informing them of this service and asking them to promote it and encourage churches to use it, you would receive warm support.
The organization might be able to snag free or reduced cost ads in SBC Today and/or state papers that said something like this – “Sexual abuse can occur anywhere. Don’t let it go unreported. And don’t hire your next staff person without checking their background.” And then give the name of the organization, a phone number and a web address.
As for what gets included on the database, etc., that could be worked out. Convictions would certainly be included. I think that charges should be too, and if there is a verdict of not guilty, include that information. Charges are public record already, so there is no harm there as long as the not guilty verdict is reported. “Credible allegations” I don’t know about. But again that is a detail that could be worked out.
I would think that the organization would be an information house only. Not an investigatory agency. That would be too personnel intensive and the rate of error (and thus, the potential for less accuracy) would be greater.
I think that given your background that the initial directors should be SBC. But I am concerned about limiting it to SBC. Since there is so much parachurch cross over and non-denominational cross over these days, I would certainly be willing to put in the database a name from say a parachurch organization or one of the northern Baptist groups who moves down south and may want to transition to an SBC church.
If you want more help on this and want to brainstorm anytime, I would be willing to do that with you and others. Let me know. I am sure that I can follow up by contacting you directly if you are interested.
Louis: When you say “I would encourage you to start this, or to encourage others… to start this,” that is indeed a way of saying “YOU handle it, not us.” So I stand by what I said: It’s a “not our problem” sort of response.
And no . . . I do not agree with you. I believe the burdens and risks (and benefits) of having a review board and record-keeping system for Southern Baptist clergy should be borne by an entity affiliated with, auxiliary to, or as an arm of the Southern Baptist Convention.
Other major faith groups have review processes for assessing “credible allegations” against clergy. It is done within the faith group, and as a mechanism of the faith group, regionally and/or nationally. There is no good reason why kids in Southern Baptist churches should not have the benefit of a similar safeguard mechanism. (There are even a few groups with congregationalist polity, such as American Baptists, who manage nevertheless to have a system within the faith group and outside the local congregation for assessing ethical complaints against clergy.)
I find it puzzling that you now propose “brainstorming.” What was needed and what is still needed is a legitimate and funded study — a study in which outside experts are consulted, a study in which the processes of other faith groups are compared, a study in which data on the extent of the problem is gathered, a study in which the costs of implementing a review board and record-keeping process are seriously assessed. Such a study should be more than a conclusory report and it should certainly be more than “brainstorming.”
For those who might like to see the tip of the iceberg of the problem, you can see a gathering of several years worth of media reports on Baptist clergy sex abuse cases (which are mostly convictions and criminal charges) here:
http://www.stopbaptistpredators.org/news.html
And you can see a listing of those who were readily ascertainable as being in Southern Baptist churches here:
http://www.stopbaptistpredators.org/scandals/sbc_ministers.html
(But of course, it’s often difficult to tell who’s Southern Baptist and who’s some other sort of Baptist . . . so I’m sure I missed a lot.)
And these don’t even begin to include the sorts of “credible allegations” that other major faith groups deal with, and that are a huge part of the problem.
And no . . . I don’t think I’ll be writing any more letters to Frank Page, at least not anytime soon. He is, after all, the man who, in his capacity as Southern Baptist president, publicly castigated clergy abuse survivors who speak out as being “nothing more than opportunistic persons.” And he’s never even bothered to apologize.
Whatever the cop-outs that prevent the FULL cooperation of SBC member churches from allowing clergy-predators to play the system inherent in the current status-quo;
in the end, morally, if not in the Name of the Lord,
the collective responsibility, for allowing the predator loophole to exist . must be faced, and addressed.
The cop-outs wear thin when matched
against the suffering they are now ‘passively’ (?) permitting to happen.
CORRECTING: “Whatever the cop-outs that prevent the FULL cooperation of SBC member churches FROM STOPPING clergy-predators now able to play the system inherent in the current status-quo;
in the end, morally, if not in the Name of the Lord,
the collective responsibility, for allowing the predator loophole to exist . must be faced, and addressed.
I would love to see the full context of Dr. Page’s quote. Can you give a primary source?
Christa–
Frank Page is now Executive Committee CEO. Let’s hope he has re-thought his position and, at his behest, will do just what you wisely recommend. Leaving it to the local church has resulted in more burial of the issue than confrontation.
Already, it is more simple than we think = local church / association ordination where they could easily investigate IF the church does not act or a person is quietly allowed to move and continue the abuse.
The last thing we need is accusing the accuser! While a few cases may be just that, the majority are real! NO CASE should EVER be ignored or covered.
The future integrity of our Baptist form of Christianity is at stake.
Catholics have now adopted a “no pedophile allowed” policy, and, according to “L’s” (Christiane) they are acting. It only took them some 100+ years to address this issue. Celibacy causes hidden lusts as Paul clearly cites. Sadly, his view that the End of Time would come in his lifetime goaded him to make his celebacy statements–and it didn’t happen!
Instead, he generated an impossible rule which promoted a “hidden side” of Christianity among Roman Catholics which has been going on for hundreds of years without control–only ignoring it and accusing the accuser!
In this “over-sexed” era since the 50′s, our changing ethical atmosphere in America has gone from our puritanical heritage to that of lusting pagans of Europe and England. Each of our early colonies based on a Puritanical approach ultimately failed. Some became the Salem Witch Hunt.
Everyone knew those who wanted to live the “wild life” could find it among Wicca covens / gay & lesbian cults / wife swapping societies / etc. existing behind locked doors and coded entrance words.
We used to think it was a thing you could find in NY City or New Orleans, famous for their lusty groups enjoying perversion. The South has long had hidden gays / incestuous families / perverted preachers. All you have to do is read William Faulkner and other famous Southern writers to find the “hidden secrets of the South.”
Too long we thought it was “just fiction.” I served in some of thse Southern towns where the church was more a “social club”—and hidden agendas ruled. I can tell you first hand that we are not as pure as we pretend.
The problem is–if we continue to pretend rather than “strive for the high calling of God in Jesus Christ.” We will be doomed to the disrespect of the Priest and Church which has plagued the Roman Catholics. Baptists revolted from it, but, now, have recreated it with the attitude Frank Page exhibited a few years ago—despite Christa’s clear call and documented cases of sexual abuse.
Christa:
I misunderstood.
When you wrote, “Those burdens and risks should rightly be borne by some entity, or auxiliary entity, connected to the SBC”, I took that as an acknowledgment that the new organization does not have to be an SBC agency.
I thought that we were making headway on shared points of agreement. And that would make working together a possibility. But I misunderstood. It appears that there remains very little common ground.
Why does the organization have to be an auxillary or “arm of” the SBC? I don’t understand your rigid insistence on that requirement. That is the very problem that I have addressed in my objections.
If the objections that I have raised (which I believed are shared by other Baptists) are addressed by making the organization separate from the SBC, but one which tracks predators in the SBC and one which serves SBC churches, why wouldn’t that be acceptable?
Again, once such an organization is underway, I would think that it would be good for that organization to look at other groups and what they are doing, and talk to experts, to create a good system.
But the SBC should do no such study because it should not undertake this task for the reasons I have stated earlier.
I did not know that Dr. Page said that.
QUOTE Other major faith groups have review processes for assessing “credible allegations” against clergy. END QUOTE
If people were to read this lady’s posts, they might get the idea that S. Baptists do NOT have a process for dealing with credible allegations against clergy. That is not true. We have the local church.
This lady just does not have a very high view of the local church. I might point out that abuse is always a local event. There is not such thing as “national abuse.”
Many, many, many SBC churches are on the bandwagon for doing thorough background checks. I have been through them. Are they perfect — absolutely not. No system ever will be.
SSBN: Have you been reading and retaining anything that has been said? I don’t see where you have and frankly it’s frustrating.
SSBN, Those ladies just don’t get it. There is no perfect system, what they are asking is for us to go against what we believe the Bible teaches about church govt. One of those ladies will tells me that only innocent until proven guilty is in criminal court, and only applies to those who are about to lose their freedom. I ask a law clerk about civil cases (since one of those ladies refuse to answer it) the standard is the same even in civil court.
Good points. I hope those ladies will listen, but I doubt it.
BTW, “this lady” has a name and it’s Christa. Please use it.
Or what?
Or even more people will know Blackmon as a pencil,tape, razor blade huckster who is a screwball.
That’s right, cause I said that childmolesters are innocent victims who have a terrbile medical condition that needs to be treated–they deserve our pity. Oh, wait, I didn’t say that–you did.
Actually, what I said was that “innocent until proven guilty,” with its various accompanying evidentiary rules and burdens, is a presumption of the criminal law. It is a presumption that is often cited in wholly different contexts as little more than a slogan, and that’s what I was objecting to. The question is “proven” by what standards?
The criminal law presumption of “innocent until proven guilty,” with its accompanying rules and burdens (e.g. “proof beyond a reasonable doubt,” etc.), was never designed or intended to serve as a standard for whether a pastor should remain in the pulpit. Generally, it’s a presumption that, in our country, is based on the underlying notion that “it’s better to let 9 guilty men go free than to convict one innocent man.”
Most other major faith groups in this country apply lesser standards of proof and different evidentiary rules for the purpose of making denominational/ecclesiastical assessments about abuse allegations against clergy.
Yaba – Daba – Do ; Which means innocent until proven guilty- I Think ! The State or Federal laws when exercised will determine guilt or innocence regardless of any denominations inquirey.
“Yaba – Daba – Do ; Which means innocent until proven guilty- I Think ! The State or Federal laws when exercised will determine guilt or innocence regardless of any denominations inquirey.”
Not really, Jack. If a teacher or principal is accused of sexual abuse, they most likely will be suspended from their duty during the investigation process. They are not deemed “guilty” but because of the nature of their duties, they are not allowed to practice until cleared. The dangers to children are too great. And the ability to sway others to their side with their influence is also great. Just think what this is with pastors or youth leaders.
Recently, a principal was fired immediately when he was caught viewing porn in his office. No questions asked. He was gone. In many churches, the leader caught viewing porn, it would be hidden from the congregation. Quite frankly, our standards for sexual abuse and other things are much lower than the secular world’s. Strange.
I agree. What I was trying to say is that if in a school example a person is suspected then he is suspended by the school system and those wheels turn ; but, the judicial system gets involved and takes the lead. Unless the crime is known as you mentioned no one can make a move just because it’s being kept quite. And this is a main problem in that local churchs which I sometimes refer to as “clubs” refuse to even get background checks for members in child related jobs knowing these people have problems and are related to families who have been around incidentally and have their own track record of instability. I’m not looking to punish anybody only to create a better , safer system and I like most don’t know just how but believe, “you can get there from here”.
This is related but in some cases these people are active in more than one church program such as youth sports and screw it up horribly by viciously argueing on courts of play in front of children and parents as well as permitting kids with muscle developement and jail tat-toos to play out of thei age groups and these problems carry into the parking lots with associated problems. Just saying that solving the child abuse and prevention problem creates ripples that improve the whole church operation. There’s only a small chance I know what I’m talking about but …..
Abuse has several forms, physical, verbal,mental probably something I’ve left out and people that exhibit these symptoms or a symptom at least deserve a background check to be employed in an SBC church or they don’t reap the benefits of the association. If there was a carte blanche rule nobody would stand out unless they refused.
http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/09/16/2010-09-16_prominent_harlem_pastor_accused_of_molesting_children_has_resigned_will_never_ag.html
Now, why have Christa nor Debbie shown any outrage over this article? Oh, wait, I see, the guy is not from a theologically conservative church. Child molestation is only evil when it happens n a theologically conservative church.
Yep, Debbie doesn’t have an agenda at all.
or you’re just the wrong end of a horse…
wait, that’s truth, not agenda…
Seems to me, that laws need to be changed in cases of molestation of children to a longer period on statute of limitations. Most children do not report it and will not report it until they become adults–just by the very nature of the crime against children. They are vulnerable and think they will get in trouble, or they are the one at fault or too ashamed. This guy needs to be locked up for the rest of his natural life. selahV
It’s just my opinion, of course, but there should be no statute of limitations on child molestation. That’s something that you should never be able to out run or live down. If you do it, your victim is haunted for life–you should be, too.
I totally agree.
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