I boldly told people that this day would never happen.
- Republicans would come to their senses and nominate someone other than Donald Trump.
- The nation would never elect a man like Donald Trump president.
I was fearful that by nominating Donald Trump as its nominee the GOP was guaranteeing that I would have to utter 3 words I never wanted to have to say, “President Hillary Clinton.”
I was wrong about all of that. In a few moments, Donald Trump will appear at the Capitol and be sworn in as the President of the United States. By the time you read this, it will be a done deal. Barack Obama will be a private citizen, a past president, and the Commander in Chief will be Nancy Pelosi’s worst nightmare.
I opposed his candidacy with more force than I have ever applied to any political activity in my life. I’m politically interested but I’ve never devoted the kind of passion to something as I have to the Trump candidacy. I do not regret opposing Donald Trump’s candidacy with passion and force. I believe it was an act of conscience and conviction – a patriotic act. I regret the rhetorical skirmishes that sometimes escalated and I regret sometimes not making it clear that I distinguished between those who passionately supported Trump and those who simply voted for him as an option to the “President Hillary” we all found too awful to countenance. I’m thankful that he defeated Clinton but I still have serious misgivings about both the man Donald Trump and about the mixing of politics and faith by many Christian leaders.
At this point, it is water under the bridge. I advocated and I lost. Losing an election doesn’t make my position wrong and winning wouldn’t have validated it. I said what I said out of my beliefs based on my convictions and not a thing has changed, except the occupant of the Oval Office. As adherents to a faith that has prospered for millennia in underground gatherings in the fires of persecution, we certainly do not believe that right and wrong are determined by public opinion polls or elections.
I am ambivalent to the core about the new president.
- I still have serious reservations about the character of the man who now becomes one of the most powerful men in the world.
- I am thrilled beyond words that Hillary is not being inaugurated today. I believe I might be reconsidering my lifelong abstinence from beverage alcohol if that were the case!
- I am happy about some of the appointments that Trump has made and deeply disturbed about others. Choosing Mike Pence was a good start. Choosing Steve Bannon was bottom of the barrel. A couple of his national security nominees have ties to Russia that ought to make us nervous. Ambivalence rules.
- By and large, at least in those places where it matters most, appointments have reflected pro-life values.
- I wish someone would take the new president’s phone away from him. Much of the time when I am embarrassed or offended by him, it is because he tweets things that are inappropriate, embarrassing, crude or thin-skinned. Representative John Lewis is a hero of the Civil Rights movement and attacking him as he did this week was not presidential. President Trump will have to learn how to handle criticism an even insult without snapping back with Twitter insults. He will now have bigger fish to fry.
I would like nothing more than to come to believe, by the 2020 election cycle, that I was wrong about Donald Trump.
I have no idea where the nation will go from here. Some see Trump’s election as the divine hand of salvation in America (I’m not making this up – people actually think that!) while on the other side the left sees him as evil and the destroyer of all things good. Time will tell. Donald Trump was elected and only history will say whether that was a good thing or bad.
I will say the following:
It is for Americans now to pray for Donald Trump and to support him in his work. That is the way democracy works. We cannot be like the petty leftists of academia and the snowflake generation who are acting the fool. I am #NeverTrump but the country said something different. I was #NeverObama for the last 8 years, much more than I was NeverTrump. I lived through it. You never heard me joining in the fake news nonsense about his birth certificate or about “Obama is a Muslim.” I disagreed with him and challenged him. But there is a respect and honor due the president, especially from Christians. Many Christians sinned against Barack Obama and I do not plan to sin against Donald Trump.
On the other hand, as an American and as a Christian, my highest loyalty is to God, to the gospel of Christ, and to truth. If Donald Trump does things that are wrong or leads in ways that are wrong, I will not be afraid to speak against his actions or policies. The church has not been called to seek access to the halls of power, but to seek to bring the halls of power to Christ. American Christianity must never allow its gospel mandate to become subservient to political access and national prominence.
I will continue to join with others in calling on the spiritual conscience of American Christians to put the Kingdom ahead of the nation. I take a back seat to no one in patriotism, but I was redeemed to be part of the company of the redeemed making Christ’s name known in the world, and my patriotism must always be suborned to that purpose.
One thing, fellow-believers, I would say. It is time to lay down the weapons of warfare. I will never change my mind on Trump’s past or his qualifications for elections. But perhaps he can become more than his past would promise. I hope so. If he makes one, or two, or three, Supreme Court nominations in the vein of Scalia and Thomas, then I will be a happy man. If he brings security (I’d guarantee he’ll never build that wall, but I’m tired of making bold pronouncements) to the border and confronts Islamic terrorism and deals with Obamacare and does a few of the necessary things to build our economy, I will be happy.
If he leaves behind his immorality, shows evidence that his treatment of women has changed, and that perhaps the responsibilities of the office have raised his character, I will support him. His past was the main issue with me for this election, but now that he has been elected it will be his performance that matters, not his past. Will he act with moral integrity and decency that he has not displayed in the past? Will he lead well? Will he keep his promises? If he does, this #NeverTrumper will be willing to change his tune. When you elect a man the first time, you look at his past and his character. From that point on, you look at his record in office. I will be watching.
It is a supposed ancient curse, “May you live in interesting times.” We certainly do. The years of the Trump administration are not going to be boring. Not only are the enemies of the gospel real, so also are the enemies of America.
One thing I have learned. Whatever America is becoming, it is something I don’t understand and cannot predict.
We need President Trump to do better than I’ve ever believed he will do! So, I guess we are all hoping I am wrong again. Right?
It should indeed be interesting times. As you pointed out, our faith is not in politics; it is in the living God and ALL Kings and Govenors serve His purposes; both the righteous and the unrighteous.
It’s ovah…he’s our president. I agree most of all with your second bullet point. That alone assuaged a lot of my angst. Let’s be optimistic.
I am also ambivalent and conflicted. Like 99% of Americans, I hope for an economy in which everyone who truly wants to work can find a decent job. I hope for a reduction of crime and an atmosphere of peace and security in our cities, throughout our country, and around the world. I hope for the opportunity to make a life for oneself and justice for all those who have been systematically denied these rights in our country and around the world. I also hope the amount of abortions will continue to decrease, and that the laws of our land… Read more »
It’s OK everyone – just relax.
Franklin Graham has pronounced that God sent showers of blessing upon Donald Trump… And America in giving us Donald Trump…Paula White has prayed prosperity upon America –
So there’s those offers of comfort.
(Yeah, that was all typed with my tongue firmly planted in my cheek.)
Really. Do you have an issue with the theological symbolism that Franklin observed and reported (the symbol of “rain” in the Scriptures overall) or just that he would pronounce it at that moment and at that time. For pity’s sake Tarheel give the man (in this case Franklin Graham) his due. And God forbid that Paula White would pray a prayer of prosperity for America. God forbid indeed (you see? I can put my tongue in my cheek too!).
Rob
Paula white is a charlatan.
Yes I am bothered by Franklin Graham pronouncing that “as Donald Trump came to the podium got showered him with blessings”…..it was simply a furtherance of what he and others have been doing this whole campaign – saying that Donald Trump is God’s gift to America and evangelicalism.
*God
(Rather than got..)
Agreed Tarheel. I mean, we don’t know what God’s plans for Trump are. God may well be using Trump to bring judgement on America rather than blessings.
Again…it is no crime to view a person at a time in history and comment on the moment (in this case rain falling from the sky). Franklin may be wrong but he puts his money and his life and his ministry where his mouth is. Franklin has been in the business of ministering to people in both high and low places. The numbers of people who can attest to the ministry of Franklin Graham both as a person (multiple people have testified of his loving and caring approach to them) and his organization of Samaritan’s Purse are legion. At least… Read more »
Rob, I never once – not even by inference – attacked samaritans purse or his ministry at all for that matter. I did address his prophecy by inference at the inauguration that God is bleesing Trump and America with Trump. The statement was a furtherance of his unabashed Trump advocacy. Question, maybe to help you see my point. Let’s say that Bill Clinton was asked to pray at one of the inaugural events and his opening salvo was “you know in the Bible rain was a sign of the judgment of God in the days of Noah and it started… Read more »
*Insert random trump opponent in place of Bill Clinton….
Rob: You misunderstood my comment. I didn’t say God would judge America because we elected Trump, I said God may be using Trump to bring judgement upon America. I don’t know that for sure, of course, I just know that no one knows whether God is blessing Donald Trump or that he is blessing America by giving us Trump. I like Franklin Graham. Our church is heavily involved in Operation Christmas Child. But I’m not crazy about his partisanship as compared to his father. I thought dropping Mormons from the list of cults in the BGEA because of Romney’s candidacy… Read more »
Billy was “bitten and embarrassed” by such public and partisan announcment’s of God’s blessing of Nixon and America through Nixon…
Franklin is all in for Trump – for good or for bad….we shall see how it plays out.
To be fair to Franklin, while he was clearly in favor of Trump, he did not directly pressure people to vote for Trump, or castigate them if they didn’t, like Jeffress. He encouraged people to vote and to consider the issues before they voted.
What disappoints me most about F. Graham is his apparent duplicity in insisting throughout the Decision America 50-state campaign that it was not about supporting any particular candidate and that he was not endorsing anyone, when it became more and more evident—and in retrospect is hard to deny—that he was backing Trump all along.
That is exactly what disappoints me as well, David R. You are right his unabashed campaign long support of Trump is in fact undeniable. I admit it is that support that informs my perspective of his opening salvo about the rain and God’s blessing…. I gave an example earlier about a Trump opponent opening inaugural prayer comments with a reference to rain signifying judgment……this just stuck me though…..Imagine what would happen if Dr, Moore were to post a blog entitled “Trump’s Inauguration and the rain” and in it stated: “You know what – in scripture rain has been used by… Read more »
Here is an encouraging inaugural devotional exalting our Sovereign God, who once used Nehemiah— neither a politician nor a priest but a builder—to restore a nation. http://bit.ly/2jhgItf
Did you not find it odd that this sermon had no mention of Jesus, no gospel message of any sort, no mention of salvation in Christ.
I found that a little odd, and disappointing.
I actually agree with you, Dave, in wishing that a transition like this had been offered: “Hundreds of years later, in this very city where Nehemiah rebuilt this wall, God’s own Son was marched through the streets and beaten severely as He carried a cross up a hillside. There Jesus was crucified for our sins and buried. Three days later, He rose from the grave, by His victory over death making it possible for anyone to have eternal life if they will only repent of their sins and trust in Jesus as their Savior and Lord.” Granted, there is no… Read more »
Yeah, absolutely not encouraging. This was not a sermon or devotional.
Wow. That was a whole lot of eisegesis and no gospel.
Not eisegises at all. Three plain truths taken from Nehemiah on leadership. Nehemiah is considered the Biblical book that models leadership. Dozens of books and hundreds of sermons on Nehemiah all share these same leadership principles.
Don’t let the detractors distract you. Pay no attention to Sanballat and Tobias.
Don’t let setbacks discourage you.
The Jewish leaders were charging their countrymen taxes/interest. Nehemiah was angry at this but handled the situation and moved on with the wall building.
Depend on God to empower you.
I suspect Dr Jeffress favors Alan Redpath’s book on Nehemiah.
I didn’t have a great problem with the sermon except that it never mentioned Jesus or called people to repentance and faith.
I wasn’t going to say anything until Ruck linked to it, but if we preach without a mention of Christ it is troubling. Is it not?
I suspect the argument on Nehemiah is about hermeneutics and not exegesis. My problem, again is not his derivation of leadership principles – that’s a disagreement over hermeneutics we will have to settle another time (I’m more on authorial intent than a lot of you young bucks).
But the complete failure to exalt Christ is my issue,
I don’t know if after rereading the message if I am troubled. Dr Jeffress was clear several times our hope is in the Lord and God of the Bible.
I am more disappointed the name Jesus was not mentioned.
I am an author intent guy. Read my comments on the Gospel Porject when we debated it. I give very little application in preaching. Jeffress’ message contained little exegeses and was almost all application. In this setting that is acceptable I guess.
I give Dr J a little slack. Not a lot of material is available on speaking at an inauguration. Who knows what we would do?
His aggressive insults against those who didn’t support Trump may well have disposed us toward being uncharitable toward him, I will admit. But I don’t think we are far apart on this. I don’t have a problem with what he said, but it boggles my mind that he would have an opportunity like that and never mention Christ, the Cross, redemption, or the hope of salvation. Maybe there is a reason. I have to say, there was one eisegetical moment, but it may have been light hearted. Nehemiah does not buttress a wall on the Mexican border. If that is… Read more »
It seems to me that if I’m given the opportunity to present the Gospel to a man who so clearly needs it, and his family, that’s what I do. If I’m asked not to talk about Jesus, then I decline the invitation. A sermon that doesn’t mention Jesus is not a sermon, it’s a motivational talk.
There are times I don’t agree with Franklin Graham, but he stood up there and prayed a sermon declaring Christ as the only hope of heaven for all mankind. The Rabbi didn’t look too thrilled. But he proclaimed Christ.
Yeah, I will give it to Graham. Put him in front of a camera or a crowd, and he will proclaim Christ.
Graham did a great job other than his opening salvo – which I admit turned me off to anything else he said….
I had to go back and watch the clip over to appreciate the clear articulation of Christ being the sole mediator between God and man.
Always loved how Billy preached sermons with his prayers. Franklin did the same. If we don’t preach Christ Crucified, what hope are we offering?
Any news on the reinstatemrnt of the Mexico City Policy? Wasn’t thst supposed to be today?
No and yes. I did a little digging on the source. Oddly, pro-life organizations picked up the report days ago that this was expected to happen based on comments made by a Congressional staffer to a pro-choice publication entitled Foreign Policy Report. This sounds like a policy Trump would reinstate, for he generally opposes spending our money on matters that other countries are responsible for handling themselves. Even apart from the moral concerns, I just don’t think he wants to spend money on promoting international social policy for other nations. But the delay is troublesome, to say the least. The… Read more »
https://twitter.com/lifenewshq/status/823518730776969216
He signed it today. It is listed here in an article about a separate issue.
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/01/23/trump-signs-executive-order-withdrawing-us-from-tpp-trade-deal.html
This looks like something we can all agree on.
http://erlc.com/resource-library/press-releases/erlcs-russell-moore-applauds-president-trump-on-decision-to-reinstate-mexico-city-policy
Like David, I never believed Donald Trump would get the Republican nomination and then did not believe that a country that says In God We Trust as its motto would elect Trump president. What really confuses me is the Republican party that used to stand for conservative causes and family values. I voted for John Kasich in the primary because I thought he was closest to the values I held. I could not vote for Trump or Hillary in the election so I voted for Evan McMullin. If some of you could with good conscious, I will not question your… Read more »
A political party being hypocritical? NO! I’m offended such an accusation would even be made. That is the root of my disgust with politics, politicians and the process – and my fear with the involvement of Christians in the process. There is no doubt that if the parties were reversed and the GOP had been hacked and there was evidence that a foreign power – a long time enemy of ours – had attempted to interfere in our election, the Sean Hannity types would be calling for us to bomb Moscow. When Trump says he may not accept the results… Read more »
Dave,
For months I have heard that Hillary was not “qualified” to be president. I have asked for an emotion free explanation response to this. I am not asking for anecdotes but facts. I would like to hear why people were so adamant in their opposition.
That being said, I will pray for our new president asking that he takes God’s guidance for the United States.
Gerry,
Do you know what the qualifications that are necessary to be the president?
If not look them up.
If so, then you know Ms. Clinton was qualified.
So if someone tells you she was not qualified, you [knowing what the qualifications are] can tell them the truth.
Otherwise your query and their statements are simply political banter.
Parsonmike,
I do know the qualifications necessary to be the president of the USA. My problem is with those who say someone is not qualified but cannot explain how they came to that decision. I often wonder from where they get their talking (lying) points.
Gerry: Of course what they mean by it is that they are morally or temperamentally unqualified. I think it is fair to say, despite the attempts by several prominent believers to Christianize Donald Trump, that neither Clinton nor Trump are very high on the morality scale. Some Christians reluctantly voted for DT. I understand that. But some voted for him proudly, even gleefully. I’m embarrassed by that. Read the twitter feeds of Falwell and Jeffress. These are the guys that some think are better representatives of Southern Baptists than people like Moore and Mohler.
Gerry,
They may be lying or they are just speaking political banter. Or they are ignorant. Since politics is such shaky sandy ground I don’t like sinking my feet in its bogginess. Those that desire to argue over what is not prove able seem to me to be wasting their time. Maybe they are not but it would be wasting mine.
Again, trying to be hopeful and optimistic, we can all agree that it is GOOD NEWS that Trump will sign an executive order tomorrow defunding Planned Parenthood International. Even though this action will not affect Planned Parenthood domestically, it is a blessing we would never have received from Hillary.
http://bit.ly/2kdjlQY
Well I’m thankful that there may be some lives saved internationally…It’s an executive order – therefore only meaningful as long as he is in office – just like the article states Barack Obama reversed years of precedent with the stroke of a pen – and Donald Trump is now stroking a pen – executive orders don’t create law and therefore are largely window dressing except that they have Force while the president who signed them is in the office. I’ll be impressed when Congress passes a law and Obama signs at the bans all federal funding of abortion in any… Read more »
Thankfully, Obama won’t be signing anything anymore.
Lol. I meant Trump.
Sometimes it’s hard to tell them apart style wise…
😉
I’d be more hopeful if he’d sign an executive order banning executive orders. We elect presidents not kings.
Even if I agree with some of his executive orders, the rule by executive order is bad business and needs to stop.
Congress is supposed to pass laws and not the president dictate them.
Again, it’s a hypocrisy issue. We complained about Obama and his rule by executive order. We are hypocrites if we celebrate Trump doing the same.
Situational ethics have overtaken the right.
Granted, I am not a fan of the Executive Order tactic, for the very reasons you mention. But strategically, it reverses the existing orders, many of which deserve to be reversed. If it is hypocrisy to replace bad rules with a good rules, then may we all be governed by hypocrites. The only real alternative, in the short run, is to LEAVE OBAMA’S EXECUTIVE ORDERS IN FORCE for now, a truly terrible idea. IN ADDITION TO issuing Executive Orders reversing Obama’s terrible policies, we definitely need to work legislatively so that these changes become the law of the land according… Read more »
“Situational ethics have overtaken the right.” I’m not sure it ever needed to overtake the right, but my fear is that it seems to have overtaken the Christian right. We need to pray for Trump, and we should absolutely celebrate when he does the right thing. But Christians should not provide cover for him when he does the wrong thing. If we pooh pooh stuff that Trump does that would have sent us into fits of righteous indignation if Obama had done it, then we’ve lost our way. That is why it boggles my mind that Republicans are so blaise… Read more »
Your comment levels and unfair accusation, Rick. I never advocated for or hinted at desiring the failure of Trump.
I did say that Christians have exhibited and continue to exhibit situational ethics in cheering as ]the GOP does what they condemned Obama for doing.
I will not subvert my ethics to party loyalty and I don’t think Christians should do so.
My comment was intended merely to express an “impression” I had concerning some of the comments on this thread. It seemed that some were not very hopeful at all that Trump would succeed. I did not intend to “level an accusation” against anyone at all, but merely to share my own impression of the conversation. As for my ethical position on this issue, the situation does not alter it in the least. No matter which party is in power (Democrats or Republicans) and no matter which branch of government provides the regulation (Executive or Legislative), I oppose federal funding for… Read more »
I am optimistic about the new administration. I am very pleased with the cabinet nominations and hope they will be confirmed. The inauguration speech was unusual and very Trump. 16 minutes long. Repeated what he said he would do. I heard one of the ministers say that they were given no instructions on what texts to use or themes, as is often the case. Franklin Graham’s impromptu reference to the rain will be remembered forever. As to Jeffress, I have doubts having heard him before about his beliefs regarding Jesus. As much as Trump knows about him, I am sure… Read more »
Louis, I wish I were as optimistic as you. Every time I try to settle in to a wait and see attitude, something new and ridiculous comes up. When I see Trump standing in front of a wall of fallen CIA agents and complain that the media isn’t accurately reporting the size of his crowds, and talking about how many times he’s been on magazine covers, the cynicism comes flooding back. I thought Spicer’s first press conference was a disgrace. It seems this man will stand for nothing less than abject obedience and unrelenting praise, and if he doesn’t get… Read more »
Bill Mac: This kind of stuff is going to happen. I, also, wish it wouldn’t, but it will. You remember Larry Speaks, Reagan’s first Press Secretary. I am also old enough to remember what Washington was like in the Nixon, Ford, and Reagan days. Marches all the time. Lafayette Park was a place for permanently protesting hippies. The nuke freeze march was the largest ever. We are returning to those days. And there were gaffes aplenty from different Presidents and their staffs. And the Press here is hostile with a capitol “H”. I can’t believe the report about the MLK… Read more »
Louis, Lies aren’t gaffes. Spicer comes right out of the gate and lies for the president. It doesn’t matter if every reporter in the world is a rabid never-Trumper, lies are lies. Even the people at Fox News are shaking their heads. I think your predictions are mostly spot on, but let me make one more. Expect a high staff and cabinet turnover with Trump. I have a feeling that covering for this guy is going to suck the life out of most of these folks and they won’t be able to stand it for long. I don’t know how… Read more »
What you call unhinged (a pretty disrespectful personal insult, Louis) I would call principled governance.
What was unhinged – crazed, loony, divorced from reality – about what these Senators did.
That kind of rhetoric toward those who don’t toe the Trump line may not be helpful.
Sean Spicer and Kellyanne Conway flat out lied – sinfully, horribly lied.
That’s not new and the shock is hypocritical, but we must never defend lying liars because they lie for the candidates we like.
That is the situational ethics problem I mentioned.
Dave: I was surprised by what I saw. I watched a morning interview with Senator McCain last week. I can’t remember the network. To me he seemed senile until they touched on Syria and then he seemed disproportionately angry. I expected him to start flailing his arms. I saw an evening interview with Senator Graham last week a couple of days later. I cannot remember who did that interview either, but to me Graham seemed disproportionately aggressive when Russia was mentioned, almost to the point of advocating war. I encourage you to watch that as well. You can probably Google… Read more »
Oops. I meant to say I have NO doubts about Jeffress’s beliefs about Jesus.
Whatever the reason Trump won, in the means of God’s involvement, I know according to Romans 8 that God wants to use this time to conform me into the image of His Son and all will work out for the good of those who love Him and…
On a political note… Do those who are chanting “Not my President” want the President, they do not recognize as Predsident, to listen to them? Why should Trump listen to those who do not think He is their President?
Trump may not be a Christian, but concerning the “scandalous” Inauguration Gate fiasco, his administration clearly counts attendance like Southern Baptists!
Conway is now saying Trump will not release his tax returns after the audit is complete. We knew it was a lie when the claim was first made, but now Trump has made it official.
I’m not sure where I have seen so many Christians who know the intents of others’ hearts as I have on this site. So Trump lied, right Bill? Bill proving someone lied is a very difficult thing to do, as I’m sure you know. But you and others here continue to call Trump and others associate with him liars. This is a shameful. Christians should know better than to do this. Maybe he lied back then. Maybe he had every intention to release them but now has changed his mind. Fact is Bill YOU DON’T KNOW. I don’t know. Now… Read more »
“I will release my tax returns once the audit is complete, I have nothing to hide.” DJT NUMEROUS times on campaign trail…. “He will not release his taxes once his audit is done.” Conway speaking for him after he is inaugurated. Perhaps you are right, Les. We will have to wait and see if he does what he said he would do and releases his taxes after his audit is done – or if he comes out and says “I meant it at the time, but I changed my mind” of course followed by a reasonable explanation of why he… Read more »
That would go a lot farther Les if Trump had a solid record of being truthful throughout the campaign. But if you want to call it a broken promise, go ahead. I don’t know if you distinguish between someone who lies, and a liar, but the fact that Trump is someone who lies is indisputable. Did you really believe he was going to prosecute Clinton? Did you really believe he was going to sue his sexual assault accusers after the election?
We aren’t calling them lies anymore. We’re calling them alternative facts.
No Tarheelshort of his admission that he lied and intended to deceive or a recording or such that proves it, I will not call it deception and lying. And neither should you. You do know better than this. Even our secular courts would laugh you and Bill out of the courtroom for such an accusation on the basis of what you know so far. Short of the two things I said, you have zero to go on to accuse a man of lying. Even if he has lied before (like you and I have) you still have nothing to go… Read more »
Whatever Bill. Apparently anything but admit that you just falsely accused the Prez of lying about this instance.
One little nitpick Les. You actually don’t know if I falsely accused (then) candidate Trump of lying.
So in the same vein, if I call the president a liar right now…..
and 15 seconds later, say I never called him a liar, but was simply mistaken, I get a free pass?
Mike W intent is key. That’s the biblical issue. Just find your scriptural justification and have at it.
I’m having trouble contrasting the President’s call for straight talk (“those stories are LIES”) with the need to use politically correct terms like misleading, ambiguous, misleading, and duplicitous.
So, using this grid, the media elites that write anti-Trump stories (see Huffington Post) are only guilty of perfidious journalism?
Note: Yes, I looked up synonyms for deceitful…
Les, Am I understanding you correctly that you mean to say – short of an actual admission that of lying it is shameful to say that someone lied? (as for your bush example – there was evidence presented to the President, his staff and members of congress from both sides that was (at the time) compelling enough for them to believe it and act upon it….Remember both Kerry, Clinton and Biden also thought this Intel was compelling enough to speak and vote for action before voting and speaking against it. Les, your example about Bush is full of nuance….and interpretation… Read more »
I think Les is saying breaking a promise is not the same as lying. He could have been fully committed to releasing his tax returns as he promised, and then just changed his mind after he was elected. Technically possible of course, and even plausible with a person who is demonstrably honest.
Wouldn’t an honest person typically acknowledge that he is breaking a promise and attempt to explain it?
Trump and Les and others sure held Ted Cruz to a promise he made to support the nominee even though clearly circumstances changed …..
But Trump gets deference?
Its rich. Almost as rich as Trump decrying “fake news”…..ya know the same trump who threw up fake news about each and every one of his opponents every day of the primary??
I don’t think Les is claiming that Trump is an honest person. I think there are few people who would try that with a straight face. I think he’s saying that even a demonstrably dishonest person doesn’t lie all the time, and that it is possible that Trump was not lying when he said he would release his taxes, but that he genuinely believed in his heart that releasing his taxes after the audit was the right thing to do, but now thinks it is the wrong thing to do.
Then Mr. trump should say that and not pretend he never made the promise… Or convey that people maltreating him and are holding him to some unreasonable standard in expecting him to keep his promise.
Tarheel,
“Then Mr. trump should say that and not pretend he never made the promise… Or convey that people maltreating him and are holding him to some unreasonable standard in expecting him to keep his promise.”
Agreed. Perfectly legitimate expectation.
Tarheel, “Am I understanding you correctly that you mean to say – short of an actual admission that of lying it is shameful to say that someone lied?” Yes. Formhow can you know he lied? Here’s the deal. Ton accuse someone of lying presumes to know that said person intended deception. You cannot know that intent short of actual proof. Try it in court sometime. And Bill is right in his last comment. Changing one’s mind is different than intentional deception. Maybe he did intend that. Maybe not. But you cannot know. Christians of all people should exercise great care… Read more »
Would anyone here consider the AP reporter who shared the MLK statue had been removed to be a liar?
Dean, the “bustgate” That seemed to be a mistake… One for which the tweeter apologized and he explained how the mistake was made… The reporter is one who is not known for making outlandish untrue statements that always seem to benefit him directly and personally and harm those who are his “enemies”. Now let’s consider Donald Trump… has he ever admitted to making a mistake in his rhetoric or statements, apologized for obvious reports and sought to correct it? Has he ever explained how he came to the wrong conclusion? How often has he told and continued to repeat things… Read more »
Going even further has Mr. Trump ever explained a rationale for changing his mind about something for which he had promised or spoken clearly about in the past?
Or does he just move on with his new position and pretend that he never had the old one or that someone is treating him badly by expecting him to be consistent?
Tarheel, “Now let’s consider Donald Trump… has he ever admitted to making a mistake in his rhetoric or statements, apologized for obvious reports and sought to correct it? Has he ever explained how he came to the wrong conclusion?” Now that is a legitimate question and concern. Certainly. But we all need to be very careful and judicious calling him or previously Obama or Clinton or anyone else a liar. THAT is a serious accusation that, as I have said, is extremely difficult to prove in these distant relationships and situations. I can point to, but I won’t, a different… Read more »
OK…I see your point now…guess I should be more precise. If Mr. Trump goes back on a specific promise (does not keep it) like “I will release my taxes to the public” and fails to explain why circumstances have changed – while I may not be able to prove it being a lie – I can and will certainly chalk it up as yet another another reason not to trust him and be highly skeptical that he will fulfill numerous promises that were also specific and frankly, much more important to me. (I will also say that the announcing of… Read more »
Why is Trump getting so much attention here? Have the participants here really been that concerned about the statements… behaviors… choices… idealogies of the previous President? Its been less than a week and at this pace, more will be said in the next three weeks on this website about Trump than was uttered about Obama the past eight years. What is it that is consuming our minds? It seems Trump has Trumped your thinking. If I am correct – he wins. He gets the attention you do not want him to have. He becomes the discussion / debate topic and… Read more »
“Have the participants here really been that concerned about the statements… behaviors… choices… idealogies of the previous President?”
Are you kidding?
Nope. I am asking.
Of course he is serious, Bill….after all….have we not been repeatedly told by many around here that us #neverTrump people are only so because support Obama and Hillary.
Remember to not be enthused or to speak out against Trump in any way ….. well never-mind.
Tarheel – “Of course he is serious, Bill….after all….have we not been repeatedly told by many around here that us #neverTrump people are only so because support Obama and Hillary.”
My comments have nothing to do with a pro Trump or never Trump mindset. Basically I think there is a whole lot of time and effort being made on a subject any rants will make a difference with. I did wonder if as much time was spent wasted on previous Presidents. If not, why does this one get all our brain cells?
Jon, I guess you don’t like to hear both sides on an issue? I never saw much point in Obama-bashing. If you polled the regular readers of SBC Voices, Obama scored a vote that wouldn’t make someone drunk if it was a blood alcohol content. Of the regulars, it was even fewer. I see no point in “preaching to the choir.” That is also why I didn’t post a series of articles against Hillary Clinton. I know a couple of people who voted for her because they thought she was less unhinged than Trump, but they were hardly Hillary enthusiasts.… Read more »
Jon, I don’t tend to find with guys who are just trying to promote Trump and bash anyone who doesn’t hop on the bandwagon that honesty and fairness come in. You leveled charges against SBC Voices. I get sick of unfair accusations like this. I just did a search on our dashboard. When I search, 17 responses come up per page. There are 7 pages of articles in which Obama appears in the title. You do the math. Here are a few. https://sbcvoices.com/president-obama-iraq-and-the-christian-response-by-adam-blosser/ https://sbcvoices.com/is-there-a-nathan-in-the-land-a-response-to-president-obamas-morehouse-college-speech-by-wm-dwight-mckissic-sr/ https://sbcvoices.com/a-response-to-president-obamas-decision-to-endorse-same-sex-marriages-by-wm-dwight-mckissic-sr/ https://sbcvoices.com/the-supreme-court-rulings-we-arent-in-kansas-anymore-toto/ We wrote on his Middle East policy, on his handling of immigration, on abortion,… Read more »
Out of curiosity I searched here for articles with Donald Trump in the title. There were 16 such articles. President Obama has served 8 years and ran for office 2 years. In 120 months with President Obama being the most prominent American Voices has posted 17 articles containing his name. The articles listed above contain praise of President Obama. Donald Trump has spent 2 years running for office and has been president 2 days and Voices has posted 16 articles containing his name. I haven’t scoured the articles about Trump looking for praise but I suspect there is not much… Read more »
Dean: The explanation is easy. Trump was running in the “party of family values”, the party that went nearly apoplectic over Bill Clinton’s indiscretions. We’ve seen candidates derailed by mere consensual affairs, and yet Trump bragged about sexually assaulting women and Christians lined up behind him. It should come as no surprise that many of us felt like we had slipped into a parallel universe.
That’s right, Bill.
And some never missed an opportunity to laud their spiritual superiority over those who supported Trump. As I predicted, DJT’s actions and misgivings have been highlighted. Once one begins claiming their superiority it is hard to get out of the habit. While some wrote powerfully about the President’s press secretary lying we didn’t read much of a peep about President Obama freeing hundreds of convicted criminals, including a transgender who gave US military secrets away and another who tried to overthrow the government of Puerto Rico. Our former president in the darkness of night sent 221 million dollars to Palestinians… Read more »
Tar Heel, seeing how you chimed in from the amen corner I ask you to share with me the Biblical standards for voting in a democratic election. I am not interested in your standard but God’s. The best man I know supported Trump for President. The reason is he is a one issue voter and the republican platform offers him most hope. This man has given 50% of his income to the cause of Christ since his salvation. He still runs a bus to pick up children from the poorest part of his town. He volunteers in Christian service 4… Read more »
Dean: I’ve said repeatedly that I understand the Christian who voted for Trump over Clinton. Perfectly understandable, although I couldn’t do it myself. The Christians that gave Trump the nomination, however, I cannot understand. That is what I can’t fathom. I also cannot fathom the Christians who are Trump apologists when he does something like the Access Hollywood tape.
I Started to ask you if this man was Jesus – but then you said alcohol have never touched his lips and that would disqualify it from being Jesus… 😉 When Bill spoke of the parallel universe, At least from my perspective, it’s referring more to the unabashed defense of everything Donald Trump that we have seen from so many Christians – some even here – even excusing of sexual predatory language and behavior. If your friend did not defend that and/or defend Donald Trump as gods Candidate then I have no issue with him and when I speak against… Read more »
*(Whatever that agenda ends up being)
Tarheel, I know your memory is longer than that. You know the narrative has changed over the last few months. It was not “supporters” or “defenders” of Trump that was criticized but “voters.”
When pushback came the “supporter” “defender” narrative surfaced. It was voters for the longest.
The most disgusting thing I have seen are the New England Patriots.
My angst has always been with defenders and apologists…I’ve tried to keep it focused there – I admit, again – as I have before, I’ve failed in keeping my rhetoric precise enough and sometimes even gotten carried away…I’ve previously apologized for that and tried to do better….so whomever you are speaking of is most likely someone other than me.
So, Dean, you are calling me a liar?
“Jon, I guess you don’t like to hear both sides on an issue?” So which side is it that you are showing opposiite of Trump and lies being told? “You are wrong about whether we have written on Obama issues. We wrote on religious freedom issues. We wrote on the gay marriage issue. So, your accusations are false.” And when did you join in the name calling of Obama being a liar? “You are a Trump supporter and you want to hear nothing but paeans of praise toward him. Well, I hope he does a much better job than I… Read more »
Tarheel – Would you recommend we cut the Psalms out of our Bible? David had a woman problem… a killing problem… a host of problems. It is amazing how God can use someone like David – me – you. Maybe, just maybe if we who know Christ keep reminding the world how evil Trump is, he will be more willing to listen to us tell him about Jesus. I’m not sure Trump would want the Jesus which leads us to bad mouth him. The truth we need to be sharing is not thethings about Trump we dislike or detest but… Read more »
Are these comments critical of voters? “If we vote for an immoral, amoral, megalomaniac, misogynist, borderline-racist, xenophobe, self-worshipping man like Donald Trump, we must immediately STOP describing ourselves as values voters, as pro-family, or frankly, as Christian voters.” “I have to admit that it befuddles me that anyone who loves the Lord, reads the Bible, respects women, and cares about righteousness would give even a moment of consideration to voting for Trump. I cannot understand why it is even an issue.” I have not called you a liar and would not do so. It simply is not true you or… Read more »
I said, repeatedly, 2 things.
1. I thought, and still think, voting Trump was biblically unwarranted and inappropriate. I stand by the words you quoted above
2. I said repeatedly that voting was a Romans 14 thing in which Christian people can have different convictions. It seems you are only hearing one side of this.
I also admit, and have admitted, imperfections, in articles but more often in comments, in keeping this distinction.
And, Dean, you did not quote my follow-up to the second comment, which made it clear that I was expressing my opinion, while leaving room for others to disagree. You cherry picked one comment while ignoring that which did not advance your narrative. I clarified my comment with a follow up to say that I recognized that in spite of my convictions, people do, in fact, believe differently. As to the first one, I think that is the #1 reason for not voting Trump. How can we say values are our #1 priority when we vote for someone who lives… Read more »
Can we at least agree that Trump winning the popular vote because 3-5 MILLION people voted illegally is a falsehood?
I agree Bill!
Can we also at least agree that the nationwide popular vote is a worthless statistic in a Presidential Election, and furthermore, can we also at least agree that the United States is NOT a Democracy, it is a Republic.
Nate: I’m not sure it is a completely worthless statistic, but it is certainly not important in determining who wins the presidency. I don’t have a problem with the electoral college and I certainly don’t dispute Trump’s victory. But here’s the problem: The 3-5 million illegal votes is false. It’s clearly false. It is continuing to be propagated by a man who promised never to lie to us. It is a made up statistic in the mind of a man who cannot tolerate the idea that he might not be the best at absolute everything. Worse, something Trump has not… Read more »
Yes, of course, God can take a crooked stick and hit a straight lick ( how about that use of a Baptist preacherism, lol). I’ve certainly never implied otherwise. But I’m willing to bet that you to use moral standards regarding your votes for governmental leadership… Would you vote for a man as county treasurer in the county where you live who had a lifetime of embezzling funds? Or a sheriff who has lived a life of some sort of lawlessness? Or a county commissioner or mayor Who had a well-known long time history of sexual assault and bragging about… Read more »
Jon Estes, I thought that comment was going under your comment to me… But somehow it ended up down here.
Tarheel – Would you ask Judas to follow you? Would you ask a man known to assault others physically to be your pastor? Would you ask an adulterer / murderer to be your leader? Would you ask a man who killed someone and is on the run to give a testimony to your family? … What we would say” never” to – God said “yes”. I still believe in changed lives and in those who know right will do wrong. Gish, I fit both of these descriptives and God still called me to be a pastor. A much higher calling… Read more »
Meanwhile, the newly elected President has, according to many, including former opponent Ted Cruz, assembled the most conservative cabinet in modern American history, has already put the Mexico City policy back in place, is about to appoint a fantastic Supreme Court nominee, is expected to send Ms. Conway out to address the prolife march on Friday (the first time I understand a White House official has actually showed up vs. called in), has had very productive meetings with construction labor unions who supported Clinton (i.e. Working with the other side), and has signed common sense immigration policies that place the… Read more »
By the way, if any of you know this, please help me. In the last week or so of his Presidency, President Obama allowed a U.N. resolution to pass out of the security council which condemned Israel. This was widely noticed and condemned all around. A Jewish friend asked if the SBC has spoken to this. I have searched the ERLC website to see if anything was posted, but did not find anything. Are any of you aware of any statements etc.? If not, are any of you aware of an official or unofficial change in SBC policy via the… Read more »
Louis: We should definitely celebrate when Trump does something good. After the election, I readjusted my thinking and started looking for all the good that might come of a Trump presidency even though I didn’t want it to happen. Republicans controlled the white house and congress. The Supreme court might go in a direction we wanted. Trump already showed signs of statesmanship by letting Clinton off the hook and making nice with Obama. Perhaps the pivot we were all promised was happening. Then the craziness started. Claims of winning the popular vote (recently reiterated). Taking credit for things that were… Read more »
Thanks, Bill Mac, for a thoughtful response.