My friend and colleague Alan Cross is an expert on immigration and immigration policy. Your humble, happy, semi-retired hacker and plodder SBC pastor is not. But I know what I am seeing and reading.
While on a vigorous four mile walk yesterday morning (vigorous to me, approaching my eigth decade, is about 18 minutes per mile, less than that if I schedule a time trial, more than that if I get lazy or go uphill) I was drawn to some hammering and banging of a construction project, the universal magnet for old dudes. I sauntered over to observe. It was a reroofing job on a multi-unit office complex.
A crew of maybe 15 people were stripping off the old asphalt shingles and preparing for new ones. They were all, best I could tell, Hispanic, and several of them were Hispanic females. One woman was doing the hard work on the roof with the men, while a couple of others were on the ground doing less strenuous and dangerous tasks.
Lord, have mercy! I’ve never seen a woman in a roofing crew before, much less one working on the roof. The roofing business is hard labor, dangerous, and not all that highly paid. Here in the Georgia Piedmont in mid-summer, it means working when the temperature is over ninety degrees and the humidity is over ninety percent. Not many people want these jobs.
I doubt I would be far from accurate to say that you can’t get a new roof put on around here without Hispanics. You probably can’t eat fried chicken that wasn’t processed by Hispanics at the huge chicken processing plants in my area. Georgia is the leading chicken state and my area of Georgia has multiple plants. The jobs are plentiful but are dirty and tedious. Chances are that folks who hire out their grass-cutting are paying Hispanics to do the work. You probably can’t buy a wonderfully sweet Vidalia onion that wasn’t touched by a Hispanic worker on the way to your kitchen.
The Fed considers 5 percent to be “full employment.” We are under four percent. Businesses are begging for workers. Hispanics fill many of these job openings. Day laborers congregate near the two big box home supply stores. I drive by and am eyed hopefully as an employer, even if only for a few hours. Whether these are legal or illegal; documented or undocumented, green card, tourist, refugee, asylum seekers, or other classifications…I have no idea.
Our Social Security system, economic stability and growth, and overall prosperity, seems to this econ layperson, depends on immigration. We are destined to be a minority-anglo country because anglos have such a low birth rate, far under the 2.1 children per family needed just to keep the population stable. Great movements of people, my humble lay opinion, are impossible to stop if there are powerful reasons that people feel compelled to pick up and move.
The closest my church comes to addressing immigration issues is to provide a monthly food distribution. By default, I’m more-or-less in charge. I enjoy the work and observe that many recipients are Hispanic. We pay the food bank $300 each month for a large box truck full of food and give around 120 families a box of food. It is a good ministry.
I’ve never preached a sermon on immigration. I don’t see a Biblical immigration policy on which to base a sermon neither do I see either major party being the party of God and the Bible on this issue. I have, however, preached many a sermon on human needs and our call to serve Jesus by meeting human needs.
I have no idea how to fix a border crisis, immigration policy, or anything that fall within the galaxy of issues in these areas. But I do know how to provide help and assistance to those in need. I’ll stick with the latter.
This is an article from my local paper on the shortage of workers in the crabbing business. It seems to me that ONE way to slow illegal immigration is to make legal immigration easier.
https://www.fredericksburg.com/news/local/chesapeake-crab-count-up-but-fewer-watermen-catching-them/article_e8547caf-7daa-5000-835a-f1e4ab36b292.html
Interesting. Same story, many industries. The last time I was in a shrimp processing business on the SC coast, places where the shrimp boats sell their catch, all the workers doing the processing (sorting by size and heading the shrimp) were African-American. I don’t know who does this now.
I agree there could be more a efficient system – We are talking about government bureaucracy here…so thats a given! Lol
But, I do not think the biggest problem with illegal immigration is the difficulty of the legal immigration process… I think it’s more that there way too many “magnets”, “carve outs” and even incentives for people who come here illegally by barging in through our porous southern border (and also by overstaying their guest worker time period – i think a pretty easy legal process) than for many of them to worry or bother with any kind of legal system.
Yeah. The complexities…
I don’t know the solution. Folks that are here, though, that have needs I and my church can meet, we will try to do that.
Thank you, William. That sounds like a Christian perspective.
Yeah, William. Thats right and good stuff.
Worry or bother with our legal system? There is no legal way for these people from Central America to come apart from claiming asylum. No legal way for most to come from Mexico. The wait list is over 25 years. Unless you are sponsored by an employer or family member. The reality is that the vast majority of those needed for these industries have no way to come legally. They don’t come illegally because it is easier or they don’t want to worry with or bother with the legal way. They would come legally if they could. They go through incredible trial and difficulty to come illegally.
I’m not saying they should all be able to come legally. I don’t know what the right numbers are. But, I also know that I was wrong to think in the past that they were lazy or just wanted to skirt the system. The reality is far different from that.
Alan,
Right.
To blanket call them lazy is just plain wrong.
Legal immigration used to be [and maybe still is] a process where someone sponsered and also in that, had a job lined up.
Now there is a need for workers in one place, like Georgia, but there are an excess of immigrants [legal and illegal] in other places like California.
Many of these people would be happy to work and to pay their way but are also happy, when jobs are not available near them, to accept Govt. handouts -they need to eat and have shelter. Likewise they need health care and these needs mean someone [us] has to pay, either through higher taxes or through higher costs of goods and services.
The key then is find a way to bring in immigrants to where the jobs are so that through the normal process of our economy, they are a boon not a drag. That cant be done as long as they are streaming unregulated across the border.
And Alan, I also agree with you that the way William describes how to help them is Christian.
Legal or illegal is a political status not a Christian one. We are to give aid as we can to those we encounter with need [our neighbors] not taking into account their political status: legal, illegal, citizen, etc.
For the record I wasn’t intending to blanket call them lazy – i was speaking to the fact that our long time broken political immigration system needs fixing to both allow for reasonable and nationally helpful remedies in providing for legal immigration processes and also remove incentives/encouragment/pathway for illegal immigration.
Right, not pointing any fingers at you brother.
But some see all people on govt assistance as lazy. Which of course isnt true.
As to the rest of your comment, Dave [Tarheel], spot on:
“…i was speaking to the fact that our long time broken political immigration system needs fixing to both allow for reasonable and nationally helpful remedies in providing for legal immigration processes and also remove incentives/encouragment/pathway for illegal immigration.”
Steve Newhouse, I understand discussion of the issue is difficult. That’s why I only approached it from a pastoral perspective and left the complicated political matters alone. I’ll be glad to discuss it with you but not if you lead with my name in the same sentence as slave owners. This was a particularly stupid move on your part and I don’t see you as a stupid person otherwise.
Try again.
William Thornton, I certainly did not mean in any way to portray your personal beliefs, motives, viewpoint or morality as those of a slave holder. I started the comments with your name to signify who I was responding to with my use of your name, as I did this one. As I do follow this blog often, I have a great deal of respect for your open minded and studied comments on many subjects. That I offended you saddens me and believe me it was inadvertent and putting your name in the front of my comments was what I thought the correct format to open up with.
Here are some economic arguments slave owners in the South used to justify the terrible sin of slavery, paying wages even minimum would render tobacco, rice and cotton too expensive for export. A popular 1860 pamphlet estimated that ending slave labor would cost the southern economy 4 billion dollars in revenue and render the plantations and farms worthless as they would be produce no profit. If chicken plants, roofing companies, tomato farms and all the rest of the economy cannot operate following the labor , wage and immigration laws of this country then the issue must be addressed by the question why.
I will shortened my post and ask these questions.
1. Is than any number limit of illegal aliens that this country can allow in ? Is the number 8 million a year, 20 million , what is the number .
2. The USA legally allows one million legal immigrants in a year , what should that number be? Is there any limit on legal immigration . What about chain migration, which is a time bomb.
3. H1B and H2B visa hurt and displace working class Americans , what is the relationship to legal immigration and again what number should be allowed to work here legally?
4. With our generous social , medical and welfare system there is no compelling reason for many on the lower economic rung of the ladder to take a minimum wage or lower job. Would you urge someone you know to pick tomatoes for 20 dollars a day, of course not. Americans can now play the system and live a lower middle class life rather than compete on the bottom rung job market.
There are more illegal aliens in this country now than the number of legal immigrants that came though Ellis Island when it was open . We do not even know how many illegal aliens are in the USA. My guesstimate would be 20 to 40 million not the years old number of 11 million. Complicated issue that because of the status quo favoring the establishment we will not address. Emotional, to say the least.
Again , William Thornton I apologize even I even inadvertently implied or suggested you in any way by words or thought be linked to a supporter of slavery . That was not my intent.
Steve, thanks for the apology. I’m not much interested in the wonkish part of immigration. I know it’s broken. I know neither party is interested in fixing it. Many employers around here would not argue that AMerican workers are being displaced in their industry.
Please share a bit about yourself. Are you SBC? Pastor or layperson? Thanks.
William Thornton, I am relieved that you are gracious enough to accept my apology . Truth is , your comments are main reason I visit this site, as I am 71 years old, a layman and been in the SBC since I was 22. I am concerned about the future of the SBC and will let it go at that for now. That is why I am on my recent quest is to get different input and viewpoints on issues and follow sites I may not agree with. So this is of interest and value to me.
On this issue , there is vast difference in the SBC leadership and the vast majority of average SBC members . A lot of younger SBC pastors and leaders are going into a new Moral Majority rationale , that I was strongly against with the old Moral Majority litmus test being one of not spreading the Gospel but social justice. I shorthanded the thought as it is complex but that is why I am here and read other sources I do not agree with. I am not trying to get off point or stir the pot, I am trying to be honest.
Final question, if everyone in Venezuela and poor , poor Haiti , and all the Central Americans countries come to the USA border in the next 5 years do we let them all in? Again , if not what is the number we allow? This is a real question and I am not be a smart alec. Where will Americans migrate too when we are a poor , third world country?
If the mission field had come to us, then let us take the IMB money and spend it on the mission field here, at least it would help and be more cost effective.
Steve, thanks for sharing about yourself. Your questions are beyond what I can answer.
I wonder if Alan Cross has some information on the cost of securing a green card, immigration lawyer, etc. I sought to roughly do so for someone and the cost is exorbitant.
IMO, The process of legal immigration is entirely too expensive and too long. I also don’t believe in any sort of quota system as before long we will begin to decide from where and who is more desirable.
There were around $3,000 in government fees alone from the start of the spousal visa process until my wife became a US citizen. Each step involves hundreds of dollars.
After a “career” of 36 years with the IMB in Venezuela, we retired to south Mississippi. On the second day of our “retirement”, an Hispanic pastor knocked on our door and asked for our help in the Hispanic mission he was pastoring. He later graduated from NOBTS and moved to Kentucky, and we have pastored the mission, now a church ever since. I was unprepared for the realities of the sub-culture of Hispanics in the USA. Although I make it a practice to not know who is legal or not, I have come to believe that the immigration crisis in our country has less to do with economics and more to do with the humanitarian crisis in Latin America. Shortages of food, jobs, medical attention, justice and access to education are driving people to do the same thing we would do if our families suffered these shortages. What seems to be in abundance in their countries is violence, corruption and discrimination. At the same time, Acts 17:25-27 has enlightened me as to the “big picture” of how God moves and uses movements of people. We hear reports of churches being started in many countries in South America as God uses the many Venezuelan Baptist who had to flee their country. Also, as David Jeremiah shared in a sermon, “they” (immigrants) are here because we didn’t do a good enough job of sending missionaries over “there”. He has several congregations, among them an Hispanic church. While the immigration laws need to be fixed, we should look upon the fields and realize that the mission field has come to us. May our faith be informed more by the scriptures than by our citizenship.
I believe the same is true for the Arab immigrants. What an evangelism opportunity!
I was sent a recording from a friend by a Bible teacher on capitol hill that uses the Tower of Babel and the different Hebrew words for sojourner and foreigner to provide him his proof that God wants to keep people in their own nations, without all of this movement crossing borders. I was struck by his blanket assertion that these people are coming here simply to take a step up in their economic standing and/or to take advantage of the American social net. Nothing about people fleeing violence and a high likelihood of death.
It was almost like he was saying if God, in his sovereignty, put you in Honduras where your family could a) starve, or b) be hunted by violent drug cartels, you should accept that and work within your own nation to fix the problems.
It’s a very nice thing to live in an ivory tower.
It seems to me that the immigration issue is inherently linked to the welfare issue. How can the nation’s economy support both a generous immigration policy and a generous offering of government benefits? I’d rather have the former.
Jeff Johnson, What generous government benefits are you referring to? Do you believe American citizens on the lower rung of the economic scale should have their benefits scaled back to provide for illegal aliens that come here. Do you think millions of low skilled, poor educated people will be beneficial to those in the USA who are on the lower end of the economic scale and work the jobs at risk by newly arrived , low skilled employees? Thanks for your reply
Steve, I believe in more limited government. We can’t have free health care, free education through college, etc. and a take-all-comers immigration policy. I’d rather have a policy that creates more opportunities for a legal path to residency and citizenship and curtail the entitlements.
Jeff Johnson, I agree with your comments above. Thank you for answering my question. Generally I believe the majority of Americans would agree with you. As far as your comments below about helping those in need of course we should help those in need as individual Christians what ever we can. Of course that is why this issue is so complex, the devil is in the details and we do not like the devil for sure.
Yeah, economically and, yes politically – which these issues are, a continued overly generous immigration policy (like “come on in by the thousands and if you get here you stay here”) will eventually overwhelm our already strained “safety nets” to of point of abject bankruptcy.
But William’s point is spot on….we as individual Christians and corporately in local churches have responsibility and duty to minister to those in need.
I agree with our responsibility to minister to the needy, including immigrants. No argument there.
William, Allow me to applaud this very thought-provoking post. Thank you. Gerry Milligan