Joseph Giles is pastor of Berkeley Baptist Church in Berkeley Springs, West Virginia.
There is a Christmas song performed by Alan Jackson and Allison Krauss entitled “The Angels Cried.” While the tears the angels shed in the song were tears of joy, I can’t help but think that the angels, and God Almighty, have been weeping fiercely over the complete disrespect for life that has been shown in America for these past many years.
Just as sad as these murderous acts are, I can’t help but feel God’s wrath is being poured out for equally horrible acts; the hypocrisy and indifference of many Americans in the wake of these tragedies. Black Lives Matter; White Lives Matter; Blue Lives Matter…until this country develops a true reverence for all human life, the hypocrisy will continue and the anger of God, as well as His tears, will continue to be seen!
The first hypocrisy I would point out is the “Black Lives Matter” movement. In the wake of Michael Brown’s death in Ferguson, MO, the Black Lives Matter movement exploded on stage. They were angry. They felt racial injustice had reached a frenzy level and Michael Brown was a tipping point. They were partially right. Racial injustice, which I once perceived as near death, has resurrected itself with a vengeance. Throughout America, the tensions between whites and blacks have been escalating. The problem…Ferguson, MO wasn’t a center of racial injustice until certain race baiters made it that way. The truth, backed up by video, is that Michael Brown was viciously attacking a police officer who was defending himself when he shot Brown. Those facts haven’t stopped Black Lives Matter and their continuing race baiting techniques. Angry young black people use social media to call for violence and death against police officers and white people. It isn’t all of them. It isn’t even most of them. However, some of them have been amongst the leadership of this movement. To claim one set of lives matter by calling for the execution of others is hypocrisy at its finest!
But that hypocrisy isn’t limited to Black Lives Matter either! The Blue Lives Matter movement, which I support, have posted some questionable articles online. While Officer Darren Wilson was completely justified in the shooting death of Michael Brown, there have been a handful of incidents since that fateful day that should raise the eyebrows of blacks and whites alike. Living only 2 hours west of Baltimore, the Freddie Gray case has raised national headlines and local headlines alike. I’m not saying Mr. Gray wasn’t deserving of being arrested, but one has to ask how a man arrested and placed in a vehicle slips into a coma and sustains life-threatening injuries to his spine before getting to either a police station or a hospital. While it looks like each officer involved in this incident is going to be vindicated by the courts, one has to wonder who is guilty and where is the justice? Most police officers are good men and women. We cannot deny the reality that there are bad apples out there, though. The hypocrisy is that every incident, including the two this very week, have Blue Lives Matter supporters jumping to the defense of those police officers without even knowing the facts. What if one of these incidents involved a corrupt or murderous cop? Do you still want to defend him for killing an unarmed man?
The last bit of hypocrisy I would identify is the All Lives Matter movement, again, which I am a part of. It is good to see blacks and whites, men and women, Republicans and Democrats join together to support the fair treatment of all human life…but I’m not sure if I’m seeing that at all! The hypocrisy concerning All Lives Matter is that many of the supporters do not truly support all human life. The very same people who support All Lives Matter fight tirelessly to see that Freedom of Choice is not infringed upon. What about the lives of unborn humans? The very same people who support All Lives Matter are the ones calling for the public execution of the “cop killers” that are plastered on my TV night and day. When are we going to come together as a people and truly raise our voices in support of all life, not some? When will our hypocrisy end and a real desire for the Sanctity of Life begin?
The late Roman Pontiff, John Paul the Great, repeated the condemnation of the 2nd Vatican Council in his March of 1995 “Evangelium Vitae:” Whatever is opposed to life itself, such as any type of murder, genocide, abortion, euthanasia, or wilful self-destruction, whatever violates the integrity of the human person, such as mutilation, torments inflicted on body or mind, attempts to coerce the will itself; whatever insults human dignity, such as subhuman living conditions, arbitrary imprisonment, deportation, slavery, prostitution, the selling of women and children; as well as disgraceful working conditions, where people are treated as mere instruments of gain rather than as free and responsible persons; all these things and others like them are infamies indeed. They poison human society, and they do more harm to those who practice them than to those who suffer from the injury. Moreover, they are a supreme dishonor to the Creator.”
Human life, all human life, is made in the image of God and is endowed with a spark of the divine. To demean any life, by means of murder, genocide, abortion, euthanasia, willful self-destruction (Death Penalty) or by condemning human life to less than humane conditions is immoral, wrong and sinful.
Here’s the challenge for us, as individuals and as the Church Triumphant: “Do you really think—anyone of you who judges those who do such things yet do the same—that you will escape God’s judgment?” Romans 2:3
Hypocrisy is a sin. It is a sin Jesus Himself preached against emphatically. It is a sin that unfortunately taints and stains the American Church and American Christians. It is a sin we must repent of and let God wash us clean from lest we receive the condemnation of the Almighty: “Because this people draw near with their mouth and honor me with their lips, while their hearts are far from me, and their fear of me is a commandment taught by men…” Isaiah 29:13
All lives matter. All LIVES matter. ALL LIVES MATTER. Let’s start a movement that lives up to that moniker, unless you like divine tears.
The issues here are so complicated. I watch a video of two officers shooting a man in LA, and I think there’s no way that can be justified. Then, a few days later the Dallas shootings take place and things just seem to be getting worse.
Racial issues are so difficult. Thanks for this attempt to wade through them!
They are complicated. What isn’t is the love of God we are called to demonstrate. That agape love could change the world, but it has to begin with us!
@Dave Miller – you wrote: “I watch a video of two officers shooting a man in LA, and I think there’s no way that can be justified.”
Are you familiar with the back story on this? The shooting of Alton Sterling by Red Stick police was fully justified. Referring to the actions of the officers as “murder” is what is not justified (not suggesting that you have but other posters on this site have).
Agreed. Sterling had a gun (illegal as he was a convicted felon), he was struggling with police, and clearly making an attempt to grab that weapon. I am sorry, but I am glad those officers were able to go home to their families that night than risk some convicted felon, a thug with no respect for the laws, take his gun out and shot at (if not kill) a law enforcement officer. If your argument is police should wait until they are fired at before they can shoot back, that is a 100% guaranteed recipe for more police dying. Even… Read more »
Did you mean for “willful self-destruction” to indicate suicide? (Death Penalty) doesn’t seem to fit there; or, really in a list of racial issues.
Joseph Giles, Thank you for this post. It seems obvious to be you have been seeking to understand, as have many of us, what is happening in our culture through the lens of a biblical worldview. I don’t always find that to be an easy task. Some issues before us are very complicated. At least they are to me. I have found that the events of 2016 have brought about some soul-searching for answers consistent to a biblical worldview. I do have the same question as did Dale. Did you mean for “willful self-destruction” to be defined as “death penalty”… Read more »
For years black people have believed whites owe them an apology. And that has been done a number of times, for we have had plenty to apologize for. But we are now at a time when black folks need to do some apologizing. For things like: Misrepresenting the events of Ferguson, MO. Destroying the career of a white police officer in Ferguson who was simply doing his job. Making heroes out of criminals. Jumping to conclusions when there is a shooting of a black man. Not telling the entire truth when there is a shooting of a black man. Chants… Read more »
My guess is that if you want to keep score, we might not come out so well on that one.
“News for Christians” reports that the Dallas Police Chief is a member of Tony Evans church in Dallas.
http://newsforchristians.com/
David R. Brumbelow
As a nation, we have sown the wind by our sanction of abortion and euthanasia. Now we find ourselves tiptoeing along the brink of a brand of anarchy that could lead to blood running in the streets. We may be on the verge of reaping the whirlwind of a culture of death.
Be not deceived; God is not mocked. Whatsoever a nation sows, that shall it also reap.
Something about this post and the subsequent comments don’t set right with me. Maybe someone could explain a few testimonials of either racial profiling for being black or being shot for being black. Because there are so many things that bother me about the OP in light of these testimonials. One by a Senator, one by the President of the Black Police in Texas, and one by Marty Duren’s post today. The most compelling is the senator Tim Scott.
https://www.facebook.com/SenatorTimScott/videos/1199078193457644/
Maybe Debbie the reason this doesn’t sit right with you is that he is calling everyone, which happens to include #blm. That’s probably what bothers you. You “seem” to think the only justifiable position is to support only #blm because they don’t seem hypocritical to you? But I can be wrong and you can show support for #alm and #blm equally right here, right now.
Les, you didn’t have time to watch the video or read the articles I mentioned, so I am not answering you till you do. That’s what doesn’t sit right with me Les.
Read it Debbie. Ok. So…
Les: Until you read the sources I gave and watch the video(all which takes more than 2 or 3 minutes) no answer is coming from me except All Lives Matter is not something I can support at this time. It’s not all lives that are being profiled or shot because of the color of their skin.
Debbie,
1. I read the link.
2. I don’t really care if you answer me.
3. Relative to other colors of skin, not all that many blacks are being profiled and shot because of their skin as #blm and the media and liberals and you would have us believe. I’ve already provided the stats that refute that false narrative.
Facts are irrelevant, Les. Only perceptions and emotions matter. If facts contradict perceptions – and preconceived notions facts will be ignored. Debbie, No one is saying inappropiate profiling doesn’t happen – what we are saying is that BLM lies and creates a false narrative and in fact it itself is based on a false narrative. Their routine chant “hands up, don’t shoot” is a lie it never happened. Period. Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson and the rest of the troublemaking baiters laugh at people all the way to the bank. The real victims in Ferguson was the police officer who… Read more »
*facts came out (not fax)
*rioting (not writing)
“. . . .no answer is coming from me except All Lives Matter is not something I can support at this time.”
Debbie, do you think that maybe you should re-construct this statement? Because surely as a Christ follower you have to believe that “all lives matter.”
No CB. I know exactly what I write and why I write it. I am fine with the sentence the way it is.
Debbie,
You don’t mean that. You are just being stubborn and prideful. I know you believe that all people matter regardless of their ethnic background. I have known you since the Stone Age and I know you are just angry and when you get angry, you also become hardheaded and prideful.
It is beyond the parameters of biblical Christianity to not believe all lives matter. You know that as well as I do. Your comment makes you appear heartless. I know you are not, so change the statement to reflect who you really are. . . .Please. 🙂
CB: I say this again ad nauseum. I am not saying all lives matter, I am basically saying I am not going to support something that hurts what the black people of this country are saying. Part of the problem is either you are misrepresenting me on purpose or you don’t read all the comments. Read all my comments then you won’t be missing what I say CB.
The should be I am not saying all lives do not matter. Read Lecrae’s Instagram. Don’t just read it, let it sink in.
Debbie, For you to state ” I say this again ad nauseum” is again your stubbornness and your being prideful. You are not saying anything “again.” You are saying for the first time in this thread that you admit that “all lives matter.” There is nothing for you to be “sickened” about in stating that. Debbie, the only reason I engaged you in this dialogue is because I know you actually do care about all lives regardless of ethnic background, but the way you expressed yourself was as if you did not. Like I stated, I know you and I… Read more »
CB: After ten years of let’s say having to wear high waist boots around your dialogue, speaking for me is something you couldn’t do then and won’t do now. So don’t. You always do it very poorly.
Debbie,
I was not “speaking for you.” Nobody can speak for you. I was asking you to be clear in what you state here so people won’t think you to be a theological dwarf or just plain crazy.
You know you believe that all lives matter, so just admit it.
First, willful self-destruction would be suicide, but the overall quote has the spirit of condemning all forms of “life devaluing measures.” Second, the point wasn’t just to racial profiling but the hypocrisy behind the movements. Unless you support life, don’t quite “______ life matter” to me! Debbie, look at statistics this year. More white people have been killed in police related shootings by over 100. It isn’t white people who are currently calling for violence against a race or against police officers, and it isn’t the blue lives matter or all lives matter groups that are planning a “rage day.”… Read more »
Yes, I am choking on hypocrisy, just not the reasons you have mentioned Joseph. A Senator Joseph, a Senator was profiled and pulled over 7 times because he was black. Even as a Senator he has been profiled because of the color of his skin. A policeman, President of the black police, has been pulled over by law enforcement and profiled. Their testimony is there is not one black man who does not have similar testimonies. Dr. McKissic himself has given testimony after testimony of his experiences being treated as a black man. . Do I believe these men? Yes.… Read more »
BTW FYI: Senator Tim Scott is a Republican Senator from South Carolina. Just wanted to point out the Republican part.
again – no one is denying that profiling happens by police – no one is denying that sometimes the profiling is inappropriate – no one is denying that there is been a history in this country of bad police behavior toward those with dark skin tone – no one likes to see that – I do not like it – I also know that it is better to analyze and observe instances on a case-by-case basis rather than on a general narrative – especially a narrative that is been proven false so many times. If inappropiate bias – or inappropriate… Read more »
Lecrae wrote this in an Instagram : #philandocastile” Arguments only prove my point. I will never stop. Justice. Side note the #AllLivesMatter hashtag is like spitting in the face of black folk. It comes off as extremely selfish and unsympathetic to a mourning person. Not because all lives don’t matter. Of course they do. But it’s very clear that black lives don’t to many in this country. No one goes up to lung cancer patients and says “Folks with Breast cancer matter too!” #AllCancerPatients matter. That’s Insensitive. True faith stands up for the oppressed and the broken. Obviously many can’t… Read more »
Debbie, You have not given facts – you have given narrative – you have ignored repeated facts that have been presented to you – even facts that that come from sources that would be predisposed to agree with your narrative.
“Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.”
George W. Bush, Dallas, TX Memorial Service July 12, 2016
Side note the #AllLivesMatter hashtag is like spitting in the face of black folk. It comes off as extremely selfish and unsympathetic to a mourning person
#AllLivesMatter
If we have the heart of Christ, would we not wonder why black people in our nation have to assert that their lives matter?
Will we not admit that the roots of this movement lie in 400 years of dehumanizing treatment by the white majority?
Has the movement gone to excess? Absolutely. But we need to admit that Black Lives Matter is a movement because WE often acted as if they didn’t.
I haven’t thought or acted as if they didn’t.
That’s not the point I’m making. I’m saying we need to stop looking at it from our own perspective and instead try to understand why black people feel as they do. It’s Christlike, is it not? I’m not trying to pick on you, but your response is totally self-focused. “I’ve” never done anything to hurt blacks. Fine. But that’s not the solution. It’s selflessness. Try to see why black people feel as they do. There’s a GOOD reason why black people feel that society has often demeaned the value of their lives. We need to seek to understand “their” side… Read more »
What about the Irish?
Notre Dame? No, their lives do not matter.
It’s the only time I’ve cheered for Alabama in recent memory – when they played the Irish for the national championship.
CB, I think Irish lives matter, too.
Let’s not get crazy.
Bill Mac,
Nothing crazy about it. Great numbers of Irish people were sold in the British Colonies, even before the first African slaves. Slavery and ill-treatment of people has never been restricted to one race or nationality of people. The evil that men do has never been restricted to any one group. Sin has never been selective. That’s why “All Lives Should Matter to Christians.
Dave Miller,
The CRIMSON TIDE is more Irish than the Little Leprechauns of Notre Dame. Crimson is the new Green.
Tarheel,
Thank you for believing Irish lives matter, even though you are a Tarheel.
The black lives matter phenomenon began with the understanding that “black lives matter” really meant “black lives matter too”. Since whites are the majority, it was implied that white lives already mattered. That’s fine. I don’t have a problem with saying black lives matter. However, the organization that has sprung up around the BLM movement is, in my opinion, not a good representative of the black community and is doing them no favors. You don’t have to support BLM to agree that black lives matter.
“You don’t have to support BLM to agree that black lives matter.”
Exactly!
Dave M., I do try to see it with thier eyes as much as I can. I do acknowledge that The past has been filled with much that has brought about perceptions the people hold. I also acknowledge that there are still people today who give justification for that perception. I also like acknowledge that there are police officers who inappropriately profile again sitting into the perception the people hold. I acknowledge the perceptions. Of course it is Christ like to show compassion – and of course it is Christ like to mourn with those who mourn – but it… Read more »
Dave,
This thought entered my mind –
You’re not contending for the ignoring of the facts when dealing with/discussing the issues at hand – and I’m not contending for ignoring the emotion and perceptions when discussing these issues either.
Perhaps we are both speaking of essential sides of the same coin. Perhaps in searching for solutions to injustice we should all keep both perceptions and facts at the forefront with neither to the exclusion of the other.
I’m trying to make a very simple point. The solution from our side is for white people to seek to understand how black people feel and why. We tend to look at things from our perspective and wonder why blacks do not seek the world as we do. And we get very defensive. “I’m not racist.” “I didn’t do it.” No. I didn’t. But there’s a reason why black people view the world as they do. I had a black deacon in my church and he told me stories about life in Sioux City that boggled my mind. This was… Read more »
…and I’m trying to make a point that simply feeling and emoting toward those who hold perceptions and experience these realities are not a solutions. It’s been repeatedly stipulated in these discussions by everyone in the discussions that what you’ve described happens both in reality and perception. Solutions must come from everyone. We all must be introspective and compassionate. The BLM movement is unhelpful because it’s based in lies, and narratives and linked to rioting and looting. Since inception of this *particular* movement it’s existence in the discussion has only exacerbated that which they are trying to dispel. I certainly… Read more »
Dismissing the real-life experiences of black people in America I tried to relate to you as just “feeling and emoting” is disrespectful and dismissive.
Never mind. There seems little point in trying to converse.
Ok. What are the rules for appropriate dialogue? What am I supposed to say? Seriously!?
I have clearly said (numerous times) that I acknowledge those real life experiences. I also said there are valid reasons for thier perceptions – I’m sorry I’m not using the correct verbiage.
Dave Miller,
You said that we need to seek to understand their perceptions and the reason behind them. You keep calling for us to “understand how they feel” – is that not a call to emotion?? Why is my use of that word so offensive?
When you dismiss other’s opinions as simply “feeling and emoting” there’s little point.
What distinguishes your opinions? You evidently do not believe yours are just feeling and emoting – only those of others.
We hear “Black Lives Matter” in the context of recent police shootings. I recently heard an interview with one of the leaders of this movement (don’t ask me the name, I don’t recall it). The person said they do not mean that ONLY back lives matter. Rather their point is a perception that African-American lives are considered “disposable” by some in American society. Is there any reality to the perception? Historically there is. I have read that there were a documented 3,446 blacks lynched between 1882 and 1968 in the South, and many think that there were more–when even one… Read more »
John, The problem with BLM is not that other lives don’t matter. I agree they are not saying that. The problem is that they are focusing on a few black lives and protesting both the rightful and wrongful killings of those few while, as a movement, they are ignoring the hundreds if not thousands of black lives being killed by other blacks. In about one half a year, 277 blacks were killed in Chicago alone. Most by other blacks. Discrimination is bad. But those 277 deaths, or most of them, were not caused by a white discriminating against a black.… Read more »
Mike, you and I agree that “black lives matter” does not mean that only black lives matter; so why should either of us say that “black lives matter” is any more ignoring black-on-black crime than it is white-on-white, or abortion, or any other form of murder? What I think they are saying–at least what I am hearing–is that they believe black lives do not matter to the very people who took an oath to uphold the laws fairly to everyone. Dope dealers took no such oath. Thugs took no such oath. Criminals took no such oath. So if a black… Read more »
John, Its the over emphasis of it. 1] Its not always or even a racist thing. Many of those officers are not white. 2] If it is just about unjustified police shootings, why then just Black lives? Why not all lives? 3] They have chanted for the police to be shot. When? Now. 4] Some shootings are justified but are still protested as if they are not. And because of the violent and deserved reputation of the men from that community, officers are more prone to expect to use deadly force when dealing with those folks. Thats human nature. you… Read more »
Mike: They have not chanted for police to be shot. That is simply not true. Whoever chanted this was not part of BLM, the chant was not endorsed and in fact was addressed harshly by BLM.
http://www.msnbc.com/the-reid-report/the-truth-about-the-dead-cops-chant
Good thought. We all keep getting pushed into dichotomies, when real life is much more complicated and real love offers more choices. To see real life examples, go to the Washington Post website and scroll through their stats on incidents of police-related deaths. What a mixed bag (and it doesn’t tell the race of the police involved!). They almost defy classification. The state with the most outsize instance of police-related deaths seems to be California, and the most deaths there are Hispanic males.
I heard that the last two black men that were shot by the police [in Minnesota and LouisianaI believe] were not shot by white men. And although more whites are shot by the police than blacks, they are certainly shot at a higher rate per capita. The president’s nonsensical story of locks clicking as he walked down the street aside, a higher percentage of black men kill each other than any other group on group killings. It was mostly black artists that rapped about killing cops. It was BLM that marched and chanted that they wanted to see cops dead… Read more »
“The solution is internal to the black community.”
Wow.
Dave, There is nothing we can do to change racists that we are not already doing: preaching the Gospel. Unless you think revival is coming across the land, otherwise the white community of non-racists have little power in changing either group: the black community or white racists. There are already laws on the books that condemn discrimination in vital areas like work, housing, medical care and so forth. The racists give a rat’s tail about what we think. We should continue to vocally deplore them for their bigotry, but it won’t change them. How many black people have been shot… Read more »
I hate to be the one to break it to you Mike, but the “black community” does not start and end in Chicago. Chicago has a problem. There are thousands of African American people in Chicago who are aware of that problem and working on it. So thank you for acknowledging it and asking for people to work on it. Now that your single city problem has been identified, can we have a conversation about the overall relationship between African Americans and the police and white people in the US? Can we do so by acknowledging that we DO have… Read more »
Absjourney, Chicago is the worst, but not the only. And I have a couple of LEO friends, white guys, who have many close African American friends. They have described what it’s like to get calls to go into certain areas in the STL area. These are war zones almost 100% African American. These men, who have great relationships with African Americans, well you bet they are quicker to draw their weapons on African Americans. And you bet every once in a while an innocent Af. Am. is deemed suspicious being in the area of a shooting and somewhat matching a… Read more »
I don’t deny what you say – we are in a mess.
But the attempt to pass this off as a “black” problem and say that “they” need to fix it internally defies reality.
It’s not all their fault. It’s not all “black on black” crime. There is a justice issue in America and the denial game isn’t that helpful.
Dave, there is a difference between saying “It’s a black issue ONLY” and calling for certain communities to take a more aggressive stand against the crime taking place in their communities. When law enforcement agencies are DESPERATE for communities help in getting the violent criminal elements off the street, and the public DOES NOT HELP, that says a lot about that community. Further, I would argue that when the BLM crowd lays the entire blame for their situation on “white privleage”, white supremacy, racist white cops, ect, that is just as wrong as someone who says inner city crime is… Read more »
absonjourney, In regards to “Driving While Black”: There is not a lot positive I can say about my ex-stepfather ex-cop. But there is one thing that he mentioned to me when I went on a ride-along with him that has stuck with me. He said to the effect, “Tell me how I am suppose to tell a person’s race when it is at night, I clock a car going 15 over the speed limit, they are coming towards me with their lights on?” You see he was a part of a department whose city was 95+% white. It was a… Read more »
@absonjouney – you wrote: “How about we discuss this stat- an unarmed black offender is JUST as likely to be shot by the police as an ARMED white offender. Does that seem problematic to you?”
This is apparently from a study you cited in another thread. This study is of dubious quality. It starts with an inadequate data set, resorts to suspect modeling, and fails to take into account the ethnicity of the shooting officer, whether or not the ‘victim’ was compliant or not, and if drugs/alcohol were involved.
Dave, and also, in 2016 61 Hispanics have been killed in Chicago so far and all other races combined including whites total 18. Of the known assailants/killers 2/3rds are black. In the 2000 census 32.4% of the population was Black and 28.9% of the population was Hispanic. So we see a HUGE variation between population and the numbers killed and who the known killers are. That points us to the idea that there is MAJOR problem in the Black community and within the Black community that extends well beyond the racists they encounter. And raising stink about racism [and it… Read more »
Mike, you are right on. But to state these things may cause others to either accuse you of being a racist or being insensitive to the plight of some past mistreatments of America blacks by whites.
But I doubt those people will sit down and have a reasonable fact based discussion either. There is about 2000 people who work at the postal distribution center with me and my guess is that more than half are black. They and I have no problems with each other, and many count each other with me as brothers and sisters in the Lord. They know I am not racist. What others call me is what it is,
Heather Mac Donald’s most recent book, “The War on Cops,” points out some devastating and sobering statistics: “Blacks were charged with 62 percent of all robberies, 57 percent of all murders, and 45 percent of all assaults in the 75 largest U.S. counties in 2009, while constituting roughly 15 percent of the population in those counties. From 2005 to 2014, 40 percent of cop-killers were black. Given the racially lopsided nature of gun violence, a 26 percent rate of black victimization by the police is not evidence of bias.” -Walter Williams
https://www.amazon.com/War-Cops-Attack-Order-Everyone/dp/1594038759/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1468779366&sr=1-1&keywords=war+on+cops%2C+heather+mcdonald
David R. Brumbelow
Since you like books, may I suggest The New Jim Crow and Between the World and Me. Might open up your worldview a little bit. There is more to this situation than the narrow little bit you are discussing.
It’s more comfortable to say “they” have a problem and tell them to fix it than to take responsibility and seek to do what we can in the process.
I don’t think Mike’s “it’s their problem” approach is particularly helpful.
Completely agree Dave.
It seems to me that anyone insisting that all or most of the fault/responsibility to solve the tension rests with one group or the other risks reducing and oversimplifying these very complex issues.
“Black Lives Matter” is a racist, hate-based group. A group that is unconcerned with the truth.
There is no war against blacks by police officers.
Now we have had more police officers murdered in Baton Rouge, Louisiana.
It is past time for blacks to start apologizing and denouncing groups like Black Lives Matter.
All Live Matter!
David R. Brumbelow
Ditto David! When a substantial number of “Black Lives Matter” supporters are saying things like, “I don’t condone the violence, but what do the police expect to happen to them after what they have done”, that is when the movement looses any semblance of legitimacy. The fact is that there are is a fairly significant numbers of agitators using the BLM movement to instigate violence. The fact is the BLM movement as a whole, while claiming to be entirely peaceful is doing NOTHING to get rid of those agitators from their movement. They are pulling the Ponticus Pilate card, superficially… Read more »
That is simply not true David B. They are not racist and as far as I know they had nothing to do with any of the tragic, horrendous, police shootings. The shooters have been separate from Black Lives Matter, as far as I know they have not resorted to violence as an organization.
I believe members of Black Lives Matters is made up of different ethnicities. White, black and whoever else joins them. Like Dave has said, I think they have gone extremes, but speaking for myself, I understand why the organization was started.
There is also so much misinformation out there by non- reputable sources and I am admittedly only reading the more reputable established news services.
Why is it, that at nearly every “peaceful” BLM protest, there are people throwing rocks and molotov cocktails at police? And why is it that when the police respond to those attacks, THEY the police, are the ones vilified? And why is it that “peaceful” BLM crowd does nothing to stop these violent agitators from disrupting their “peaceful” protests? Further why does the BLM movement not condemn those WITHIN the movement who are saying, “I condemn violence, but what do cops expect will happen when they kill black people?!” aka they are saying cops deserve it. Yes that is exactly… Read more »
Keep stereotyping SV
BLM rally in OKC last week. No violence. People hugging police and protestors and police praying together. Affirmations of good job given by both sides.
I was in Chicago this last week and witnessed another BLM protest on Monday. Once again no violence. Police and protestors working together.
You can keep painting with a broad brush based on right wing media and reality will keep poking holes in your assumptions.
Maybe you should go to a BLM protest and see for yourself.
Police and BLM working together on a march…You mean like in Dallas? Gee what happened there? Oh thats right, now i remember! And for every heartfelt offer of prayer and sympathy from the BLM crowd to the Dallas PD, there were an equal number of people saying, “What do the police expect would happen when they are killing us in the streets!?” As far as Chicago, maybe instead of the BLM working with police on a march, they can work with Police in getting the violent criminals off the streets. You know, actually helping police respond to crime. None of… Read more »
“That is simply not true David B. They are not racist and as far as I know they had nothing to do with any of the tragic, horrendous, police shootings.” Debbie, Just as are many White people racists, so are there many Black people racists. And yes, many of them identify with the BLM movement, not all but many are. Common sense needs to come into play here. It is not rational to think that there are many who identify with BLM are anything but racists. It is also not rational to say that all who identify with BLM are… Read more »
BTW absonjourney (and David M and Debbie and whoever else), it is not just myself or others on this thread that think BLM is fully or is a borderline racist movement. Men like Sheriff David Clark of Milwaukee think so too. I wonder if you folks would call him borderline racist, or biased against the black community, or falling into stereotypes, or consider him a “non-reputable” source?
SV you are determined to only see what you want to see, no matter what is presented to the contrary. That’s your right as an American. You are entitled to your own beliefs. You are not entitled to your own facts. I have presented first hand accounts that dispute your facts. Now all you have to fall back on is your rhetoric. You are welcome to it. All it proves is that you are part of the problem not the solution and you are as biased and short sighted as the people who you are criticizing. When you are ready… Read more »
absonjourney, is Sheriff David Clark of Milwaukee county Wisconsin part of the problem too? He is quite direct in that he views the BLM, in its entirety, as a racist hate filled terrorist organization. I want a honest answer on what you think about someone like Sheriff Clark, and his views on BLM. I genuinely want to know. BTW…your facts destroyed about a two mile section of Ferguson Missouri which is just minutes from where I grew up and was raised. Your facts never condemned that violence. And your facts continue to put forward and regurgitate the LIE that caused… Read more »
A 2012 study, for example, revealed that African-American teenagers committed 6 times more murders, 3 times more rapes, 10 times more robberies and 3 times more assaults than did white teenage offenders. National violent crime arrest statistics continue to reflect the disproportional rate at which adult African-Americans commit crimes in categories including, robbery, assault and rape. Now let’s be clear here: these statistics are related to arrests, and one could argue that arrest statistics simply prove the point –police are racist. Academic studies, however, reveal that these arrest percentages closely parallel the number of crimes in which victims identify their… Read more »
Here’s another study for you to consider. Academic study based on data from police departments. Some fascinating conclusions that might alter some of your thought process.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0141854
Abson, (-: Here is the problem. Racial profiling, by the police, is a natural byproduct of experience. If they are more likely [or even think it more likely] that deadly force is to be used in a greater number of cases when confronting a black suspect than any other skin tone, the more than likely deadly force comes into the situation quicker. Thats not a racial thing, for the last two black men shot by the cops [in the news] were not shot by caucasians. Rather than altering my thought process, it supports it. Why are black men viewed as… Read more »
Thanks for being honest and revealing yourself by your last comment. All black men are to be judged by the actions of some? I thought you believed in innocent until proven guilty. Shouldn’t the officer go into each situation with that mindset?
By your logic you have just proved the premise that you accuse BLM of. Because some cops are bad, they all should be viewed as bad.
Thanks for your honesty. You have just revealed the depths of your heart.
Abson, You misunderstood. When a community allows and propagates an extraordinary amount of vicious and murderous young men within its ranks, those outside of that community seek to protect themselves from such violence. Who outside of their community could look at a lineup of 7 young black men and pick out the two who were violent? Could you, just by sight? So when a greater than usual pct. of men from the black community engage in violence and murder, they earn for their community and for their brothers f that community a bad reputation. If 66% of the unlawful shootings… Read more »
So, every problem in the black community is white people’s fault?
When a black man murders white police officers it’s the fault of white people?
Now that is really treating black people as responsible adults.
Whatever happened to
“I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.”
http://gulfcoastpastor.blogspot.com/2015/01/quotes-by-martin-luther-king-jr.html
By the way, this quote was in our church bulletin today.
David R. Brumbelow
Didn’t say that either, David.
Doesn’t help when you twist my words.
Do we want healing and reconciliation or do we want to win?
You didn’t Dave but large numbers of the BLM crowd ARE blaming all problems on “whitey”.
And a large number of the problems in Black America were CAUSED by White America. Are we now trying to deny that?
“Are we now trying to deny that”
I’m not. I’ve acknowledged it.
I pray America never returns to legal and institutionalized negative discrimination based on skin color, and I will resist and fight against if she does.
In fact I oppose discrimination the favors people on the basis of skin color, too,
I hate skin color descrimnation. Can’t solve discrimination by discriminating in another direction.
When black communities continually reject the resources provided by law enforcement agencies to get rid of the criminal element within their cities, this despite decades of community orientated focus of those law enforcement agencies, they no longer can blame “White America” for the state of their communities. When black communities have been voting one particular party in local, state, and national levels for the past 100+ years; a party which over the past 100 years has exercised near universal control politically over their cities, and held significant periods of control in their states and nationalities; and when people in these… Read more »
You know, while I understand the logic of the argument, making your case by saying “but look at how bad black people are” just doesn’t seem a productive way to move forward. Everyone is responsible for their own actions, but there is always cause and effect. By the way, the vast majority of white people are killed by white people.
Another very powerful article by a black man by the name of Brian Crooks, who has spent his life being profiled because of the color of his skin. This was in the Chicago Tribune, but is from a post from Facebook.
http://www.redeyechicago.com/news/opinion/ct-nvs-being-black-naperville-america-st-0715-20160714-story.html
Debbie,
It is sad that there are racists in the police force. It is sad that there are racists in every walk of life. And it is sad that young black men in cities like Naperville get hassled by racists. What do you suggest be done to stop it?
Gentlemen, gentlemen; you’re missing the point. This is a ‘wag the dog’ situation: no police officers were murdered in Dallas last week, no police officers were murdered in Baton Rouge today. We resolved the race relations problems last month in St. Louis; none of these reported murders could possibly have happened.
Mike: That is a very good question and while I don’t have all the answers, I think we are doing it by talking about it. Hashing it out. I also think that we as Whites and Christians, but even whites who are non-Christians can give no tolerance when we see or hear racism. Education too is key. Saying straight out that this type of thinking is wrong and why. Some were raised around racism and just like in our history, don’t realize they are wrong in their thinking or actions. Many know and just don’t care. We can give our… Read more »
Mike: In addition I think the move messengers made in St. Louis last month was a powerful God thing move in light of all that has happened in our country and the world since the passing of that resolution. So I believe that to be a step in the right direction too.
Debbie, I don’t think that what was done in St. Louis or what we say on this blog will change what that policeman in Naperville or most other racists. We can hope but most racists aren’t listening to us, or to any other anti-racist talk. Second, the problems the black community has go far beyond the hassle they get from racists. And the despicable murders of young black men by racists pale in number compared to the amount they inflict on each other. But BLM ignores those black lives because their deaths do not further the political agenda. Racism is… Read more »
So Mike, your question to me was a baiting question? Seriously? I would refer you to Dave Millers answers otherwise discussion with you is futile.
Mike: Something you said has bugged me and feel the need to respond to this. You say you don’t think that standing against racism, or what was done in St. Louis will do anything. You are wrong. Very wrong. It is definitely the way we should have responded during the Civil Rights Movement and afterward yet didn’t. And it’s the right thing to do. It will make a difference although you may see it more in hindsight in history than now. It does make a difference. To no do so would be something I in all good conscience could never… Read more »
Debbie, It wasn’t baiting. i was hoping you actually had a concrete idea that would aid the issue. Does Dave Miller have a concrete answer? Or is the only suggestion that we just keep saying we should talk more while people are dying? And how sour talking going to help the black people keep from being killed at a rate of 40 a month in Chicago alone? Most killed by members of their own community? REAL solutions start with the people who have the problems and the first step is to acknowledge the problem as one’s own and not blame… Read more »
Mike: Yes it was baiting because your answer shows all you want to do is rant how it is not about racism and I disagree strongly Mike. It is racism. And you are completely off the grid in your answer. It seems to me that is the problem Mike, denying. Or just saying the Gospel is the answer. No Mike, living the Gospel is the answer. Living the Good Samaritan, living how Christ treated the woman at the well and others of her race. Just saying the Gospel is the answer is a reason for you not to see that… Read more »
You keep saying racism won’t go away. Yes it will if we stand against it. Westboro for example is fading into the Sunset because people stood strong against them. You hardly hear about them anymore, if you do it’s not the powerful force it used to be. The KKK as a group faded when Morris Dees bankrupted them in a lawsuit. People then stood strong against them. They may not wear hoods now or be a organization, but the idea of the KKK is raising it’s ugly head again. Black Lives Matter has nothing to do with police being killed… Read more »
Debbie stop right there because if you are going to continue to use Michael Brown as an example of “wrongful death” at the hands of police, I will call you out on it every single time. The “hands up, don’t shoot” has been proven to be a lie by the evidence. Brown was proven to have committed a strong-armed robbery just minutes before the shooting, which is why the officer stopped him in the first place. There WAS a physical altercation between Brown and the officer while the officer was still in the squad car, and there WAS physical evidence… Read more »
Debbie, questions and thoughts; “living how Christ treated the woman at the well and others of her race.” Do you think Jesus told her of the Living Water because of her ethnicity? Do you think her ethnicity was relevant at all other than to demonstrate, again, that the Living Water is for all of humanity? That all who believe – no matter ethnicity/nationality – will be saved? “The good samariatan” Doesn’t this parable demonstrate the oneness of humanity in that in answer to the question posed to him “who is my neighbor” Jesus went on to demonstrate everyone without preference?… Read more »
Debbie, I have learned that in a personal dispute it is better to ask than accuse. Maybe your style or your understanding is different. But each of us, as Christians, have a duty one to another, to deal with each other in love. To mature in Christ, to use your excellent idea, is to do more than talk the talk, but also to walk it. So I admonish you to quit bearing false witness. You might mightily think I was baiting you, but your thoughts are not the standard of truth. You are right that we are to do more… Read more »
All, I think we’ve all acknowledged that reason alone is insufficient means for dealing with this issue. Reason can be cold and distant if not joined with acknowledged emotion. I think we all also agree that Acknowleging past offenses and striving to feel what others feel (emotion) alone is not enough either. Emotion can be irrational and volitle when not anchored by reason. Both reason and emotion are two sides of the same coin and are both essential to guide us down a pathway to real solutions. Neither will achieve anything alone – other than achieving exacerbated tensions. I firmly… Read more »
I’ll add that Both reason and emotion are good gifts from God and therefore valuable in life and discussion.
Tarheel: “perhaps we as the people of God should grant each other more deference, grace and freedom to speak our minds without jumping to the worst conclusions and making dialogue impossible by shutting down once disagreement is voiced.” Tarheel, I think this is one of the most difficult topics to discuss on an electronic medium. I’ve noticed “the freedom to speak our minds” is often met with “the worst conclusions” — the worst being charging someone with being a racist — not because they are promoting racism, but because they are making a point that differs. Difficult topics need to… Read more »
I agree. Its a sad commentary though….if we as the people of God cannot communicate on these issues without retreating to corners and assuming the worst in others than there is no wonder that the world does it too….
I readily admit I am sometimes guilty of this as well – its so easy to assume the worst when you disagree with someone. I’m still a work in progress.
I think what would go a long way here is an attempt at empathy. I’ve been pulled over by police 3 times in my life. Not once did I even entertain the thought that I had been pulled over because of the way I looked. Not once did I entertain the thought that the situation could result in my incarceration or death. Imagine if you had to think that way. I’m sure there are people in the world who dislike me. Maybe it’s my fault or maybe not. But I’ve never entertained the thought that people I come in contact… Read more »
Bill, I support you call to empathy. I desire to be empathetic. I acknowledge the realities that have lead darker skin persons to many of the perceptions they hold. Rhetorical question though – does empathy require us to overlook irresponsible and untrue rhetoric that is so regularly shared…numerous examples have already been shared in the thread and other discussions, so I will not rehash. You said in an earlier post “one does not have support BLM to agree that black lives matter.” I for one am not seeking to ignore the perceptions and feelings of those who have darker skin… Read more »
“*One does not have to universally embrace all the rhetoric that is spoken to be empathetic and agree that black lives matter.*”
I absolutely agree. As I said, I’m no fan of BLM, but I don’t think there’s much doubt that a lot of the sentiment on here suggests that blacks would be fine if only they were good like the whites.
Bill, When I read the comments, I don’t see any of that idea: that blacks would be fine if they were good like whites. Goodness has nothing to do with it. The black community was mistreated and it has led to many social problems. Problems manifest themselves in various ways, of which criminal activity is just one. If whites are good why is this country spiraling down the toilet? Why are a lot of predominantly and historically white churches and denominations embracing infanticide and sexual sin? The difference sir is that the blacks for GOOD and for BAD are closer… Read more »
Bill,
“… but I don’t think there’s much doubt that a lot of the sentiment on here suggests that blacks would be fine if only they were good like the whites.”
I don’t know who you’re referring to with that last comment – but I know it’s not true of me in any shape fashion or form.
“Everybody has asked the question. . .’What shall we do with the Negro?’ I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played the mischief with us. Do nothing with us! If the apples will not remain on the tree of their own strength, if they are wormeaten at the core, if they are early ripe and disposed to fall, let them fall! I am not for tying or fastening them on the tree in any way, except by nature’s plan, and if they will not stay there, let them… Read more »
Well certainly one man’s opinion from 150 years ago authoritatively ends our discussions today.
Dave Miller, Do you think that maybe a man’s opinion from 150 years ago who certainly knew similar or worse struggles of an ethnic group to which he belonged is not at least worthy of some respect as is that of the words and opinions of men and women of the same ethnic group who live today and face some of the same struggles? Frederick Douglas is a respected figure in American history who influenced many people of more than one ethnic background. It is my opinion that his words are worthy of consideration. That’s just my opinion and I… Read more »
CB. So much has happened in the last 150 years that Douglas’ words likely contained an optimistic cast he might not share now, But neither David nor I knows for sure. The quote is out of context and useless here, We need to stop denying. No, there’s no excuse for violence and murder – whether it is rogue/racist cops (small % of cops) or whether it’s angry black activists or lone wolf gunman (small % of black activists) But both sides are wrong – those who blame it all on BLM and “race-baiters” like David and Mike want to do,… Read more »
,,,and none of our opinions will authoritatively end our discussions today. But again here is some more of mine… Fredrick Douglass, by the way, is no slouch when it comes to this topic. He lived the horrors we are talking about. He was perhaps what we might call the first civil rights leader – a predecessor to MLK. Martin Luther King – a more present day man – called for judgment completely apart from the color of skin as well. These men called upon the better consciences of fellow human beings and also argued that if we as Americans looked… Read more »
“There is another class of coloured people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs and the hardships of the Negro race before the public. Having learned that they are able to make a living out of their troubles, they have grown into the settled habit of advertising their wrongs – partly because they want sympathy and partly because it pays. Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs.”
-Booker T. Washington
Dave Miller, “It is not our job to “fix the blacks” but to look at ourselves and see what we are doing that we can do better. People can pass that off as pointless emoting but it’s time we looked at what WE can fix and stop trying to blame blacks for all the problems or look to fantasies like Si many conservatives have done.” Who has done that in this discussion – passed off looking at what we can do to fix ourselves and do better as pointless emoting? In fact I have seen little of that in this… Read more »
Dave Miller, Since I am at present the only ‘mike’ that is posting, I do believe that you think that I am saying that I am blaming something on race baiters. And you think I am absolving all whites. It is hard for me to see how you come to those conclusions. Here is who I blame: [and don’t blame] I blame whoever the officers are who shot and killed law abiding citizens or suspects when deadly force was not called for, no matter what racial background they are from. I blame the shooters of policeman for intentionally aiming thier… Read more »
“This problem of spiritual and moral lag, which constitutes modern man’s chief dilemma, expresses itself in three larger problems which grow out of man’s ethical infantilism. Each of these problems, while appearing to be separate and isolated, is inextricably bound to the other. I refer to racial injustice, poverty, and war. The first problem that I would like to mention is racial injustice. The struggle to eliminate the evil of racial injustice constitutes one of the major struggles of our time. The present upsurge of the Negro people of the United States grows out of a deep and passionate determination… Read more »
“Yet what keeps getting proven over and over again with these incidents — especially since so many law enforcement officers nowadays are black themselves or another minority — the shooting [Castile] had nothing to do with racial bias. For example, in the black-majority city of Baltimore, where Freddie Gray died of injuries while in police custody, minorities make up more than half of the police force. Three of the six officers who had charges filed against them were black.” http://townhall.com/columnists/rachelalexander/2016/07/18/philando-castile-obama-and-media-continue-hyping-latest-black-shot-by-cops-n2193966 In Minnesota, Philando Castile was shot by Police Officer Jeronimo Yanez, who is Hispanic. Little is being said about that.… Read more »
“The black family survived centuries of slavery and generations of Jim Crow, but it has disintegrated in the wake of the liberals’ expansion of the welfare state.”
-Thomas Sowell
David R. Brumbelow
Our church is predominately white but has other races and is open to all races. Blacks and Hispanics have had leadership positions in our church.
Our church sign now says
“All Lives Matter.”
More importantly, not far from our church is a predominately black church.
Their sign also says,
“All Lives Matter.”
David R. Brumbelow
Amen.
Sunday morning, I asked the person who does our sign to change ours this week to read:
“God created all human life.
Therefore, all lives matter.”
Being empathetic to the reality of being black in America is a good thing. It’s a mistake, in my view to conflate our empathy with the BLM organization. BLM has an agenda and it might not be what you think it is. When we want to understand what is going on, be compassionate, be Christlike, is this what we endorse? It’s all pretty standard marxist perspective. According to the website, BlackLivesMatter.com, the movement’s list of demands for “Black men, women, trans and gender-nonconforming people,” includes: We demand an end to all forms of discrimination and the full recognition of our… Read more »
“We’ve got to say that all lives matter, it doesn’t matter what color you are—black, white, brown, red—it doesn’t matter, all lives matter,
The point is we’ve got to move beyond race. These police officers are the men and women that run towards danger not away from it so that we can be safe. It is time for us to be unified as a country. We’ve got to look beyond race.”
-Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal, our country’s first Indian American governor.
David R. Brumbelow
Actually, I do not think Gov. Jindal refers to himself in that way…Rather, being born in American identifies himself as an American. I dare someone to call Voddie Baucham an “African – American” Pastor Baucham even identifies how the term African American does not fit and actually meets the definition of racist because it is based on skin color alone and not actual geography. He points out that not every American whose lineage can be traced to Africa is identified as an African American – instead only those with dark skin are. To illustrate he says – when was the… Read more »
I can’t speak for anyone else but if you want to have a conversation with me on race it will have to be outside of the context of black lives matter. Officer Wilson was lied on and had his career ruined by a group who did not care one thing about justice. Hands up don’t shoot makes me want to throw up when I hear it today. That group has continued to spew hateful sentiment and lies toward the police in America. If one contends Donald T was responsible for his supporters using violence at his rallies because of his… Read more »
Wow! As I read comments to an article I posted, two thoughts come to mind: you guys have chased the white rabbit to far away from the original thesis (the hypocrisy of all these movements) AND…the angels are still crying! The worth of black lives was never the issue. Do black lives matter? Absolutely, and anyone who says otherwise cannot be called a follower of Christ! However, the political movement, Black Lives Matter, is full of hypocrisy, which has been pointed out. They (the political group/movement) have not once spoken out or condemned the perpetrators of violence against black police… Read more »
Joseph,
Thanks for attempting balance. It’s appreciated.
More reasoned commentary. Quote: “In fact, many whites have been begging America to address the disproportionately high number of black-on-black homicides, gang violence, high school dropout rates, levels of poverty, and family breakdown for a long time. Black lives do matter, independent of the color of uniform or skin of the people who end them. Rebecca Cusey’s recent article discussing her experience living in a majority-black neighborhood casts a bright light on the tragedies afflicting the black community, tragedies we absolutely must be concerned about. Maybe BLM is right to assert police brutality doesn’t rank high enough on our list… Read more »
Wow, Les. That article is good.
I encourage everyone to watch the embedded video in the article where a traffic stop went horribly wrong it – three body cams and slow motion see the assailant pull out that gun and shoot an officer.
I wish people would stop quoting the black on black homicide rate, which is only slightly higher than the white on white homicide rate. It’s not a helpful statistic.
Yeah, I see that – but it does provide a little perspective as to the agenda of BLM who seem to only think BLM and worth protesting over when they die in a (usually combative) encounter with white police officers….as that’s the only time we hear from them or see them protest.
Bill, but the black on black homicide rate does really matter. From Wiki: “According to the US Department of Justice, blacks accounted for 52.5% of homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with whites 45.3% and “Other” 2.2%. The offending rate for blacks was almost 8 times higher than whites, and the victim rate 6 times higher. Most homicides were intraracial, with 84% of white victims killed by whites, and 93% of black victims killed by blacks.[39][40][41]” The RATE of black on black homicides is off the charts compared to white on white homicide rates. It is way disproportionate based on… Read more »
Under the circumstances, I hope you all won’t mind my mentioning a prayer request for a black life that matters very much to me. A pastor friend of mine had a mass behind his eye diagnosed as lymphoma. They are checking to see if it has spread into other parts of his body. Please remember him in your prayers. He is a very private person, so I won’t post his name or church online — but am willing to do so to those who contact me privately. Thanks for your prayers.
Done. Keep us posted.
Thanks for your prayers, brother!
And here’s what some of us have been saying all along. Just wait until the evidence is weighed before calling what LEOs do in shootings murder. This story: “The repeated exoneration of allegedly racist cops by minority jurors and judges — from Ferguson and Staten Island to Cleveland and now Baltimore — seriously undermines the anti-cop movement started by Black Lives Matter and fueled by President Obama. With half the Baltimore cops now acquitted in the death of Freddie Gray, a pattern has emerged where highly publicized cases against cops for racially motivated murder of black suspects have crumbled under… Read more »
I think you gentlemen need to take a look at this. This is what I have been saying all along:
http://www.etonline.com/news/193526_leslie_jones_claps_back_trolls_racist_tweets_after_ghostbusters_opening_weekend/
Disgusting, but little to do with the false narrative dominating the media and social media.
Here’s some more false narrative for you Les. Can’t wait to see how you and SV spin this one. Maybe he should have laid on his stomach instead of on his back. Smh
http://gawker.com/video-shows-unarmed-black-man-pleading-with-arms-raised-1784004594?utm_medium=sharefromsite&utm_source=Gawker_facebook
Abson, Spin? Who here has ever said that there are zero cases where a police officer is involved in an unjustified shooting? Answer: no one. Do try to keep up Abson. Now a few things. 1. As in all these kinds of cases, we should reserve judgment until a full investigation has been completed. See my last post and link for why that is important if you don’t know why we should do that. 2. This may have indeed been unjustified. So far I didn’t see any video of the actual shooting. Maybe that surfaces later. 3. If it was… Read more »
Spin? I don’t know about spin, but how about this. While I recognize that the story is on other media outlets, the fact that you absonjourney will link to gawker of all places tells me a lot about you. If I am not mistaken you recently made a snarky quip against me about “right wing news sources”. Seeing now that you consult and consider gawker a legitimate source of news, tells me all I need too about you I should need to know if we are going to discuss news and political topics. As far as the story itself, as… Read more »
How could anyone not agree with Les Prouty’s comment here?
And words from a Dallas police officer, a brother in Christ. http://tinyurl.com/ja7wf4s
Les that is one righteous piece which everyone hear should read and ponder. Thank you for posting it.
Rob
Rob, I thought it was a good word. I had not seen the statements by Al Mohler, Danny Akin, Russ Moore and Thabiti Anyabwile. Eye opening.
Eye opening is not the invective I would use – though I appreciate your irenic spirit brother.
Rob
Les,
Do you know if the quotes from the SBC leaders were in any way taken out of context? That’s the first time I had seen those as well.
Pastor Moose, I do not know.
My understanding is that at least the Mohler comment was a tweat. The others could also be as well. So at least the Mohler tweat is fully in context.
Rob
I think people citing Pulpit and Pen articles as relevant and authoritative is the Voices equivalent of Godwin’s law or jumping the shark.
Probably time to shut this comment thread down before it gets any more off the rails and people start using The Onion or Babylon Bee as evidence for their position.
Wow.
Abson, are you the one who cited Gawker? Let me see…yep. Hmmm, from Wiki: “Gawker is an American blog founded by Nick Denton and Elizabeth Spiers and based in New York City, focusing on celebrities and the media industry.[2] The blog promotes itself as “the source for daily Manhattan media news and gossip”. According to third-party web analytics provider SimilarWeb, the site has over 23 million visits per month as of 2015.[3] Founded in 2003, Gawker is the flagship blog for Denton’s Gawker Media. Gawker Media also manages other blogs such as Jezebel, Deadspin, and Kotaku. The site’s editor-in-chief has… Read more »
abson, if you’re still around these parts, you want to retract tab Gawker video as another example of race based officer shootings? According to a news story, we now know is this was not a case of a white LEO involved in a race motivated shooting as has been alleged right out of the gate by numerous other people I know. In fact, this was a Latino officer trying to save an African American man by trying to shoot a white man. Oh th irony.
See why you guys need to wait until the facts are out?
The article in Pen & Pulpit (linked above) certainly does not take Dr Moore’s statement out of context. You can read his article here: http://www.russellmoore.com/2016/07/07/shootings-justice-body-of-christ/. Alton Sterling was shot on 7/5/16. Philando Castile was shot 7/6/16. Dr. Moore posted his article on 7/7/16. He also wrote in the same article: “If we believe that every person will stand before a Judgment Seat, we cannot then stand silently when we see injustice.” In the case of Alton Sterling, what injustice? I am not familiar with the details of Castile’s death so I’m not commenting on it. I am a little familiar… Read more »
Yes – there is much “pandering” going on. Decency demands recantation. Have these leaders ever gone back and cleared the record after shooting from the hip and then finding out they were ahead of the truth? Did Dr. Moore ever revisit Officer Wilson and Ferguson? I don’t recall that he did. In fact I don’t recall that this blog ever revisited it ever after the truth came out. The Angels cried indeed.
Rob
Rob, agreed there were several authors and commenters on this form who actively pushed the Ferguson narrative that was so completely and thoroughly proven wrong – Worse than that they not only pushed that narrative very very hard they also have yet to come back and offer any apologies or clarifications after accusing officer Wilson of savage murder (including accusations of his shooting Michael Brown from a great distance and shooting him in the back) and I consider that to be a great injustice – Christians and pastors so vocally impugning a police officer prior to evidence repeating narratives and… Read more »
Agreed Tarheel. The Lord knows the injustice done to Officer Wilson and will settle the score on all who did him injustice. Let us pray His servants will no longer harden their hearts like Pharaoh of old and seek peace with the Truth and say that they were wrong about it all. It may be “old news” but it is an infectious sore that will turn unless it is resolved = here and elsewhere.
Rob
I am going to be totally honest here, then I am done because nothing will change your minds, obviously, but ever since Donald Trump has been a Presidential candidate, it seems as if racism and bigotry have risen again in this country. It’s like he has put a spell on people, even Christians, and Americans have gotten more violent, more bigoted etc. Someone has said he brought out what was already there in Americans. And I think that is true. But it has to stop. No one is anti police. That is simply not true, but there are too many… Read more »
I know a 2 mile stretch of W. Florissant Blvd in Ferguson, Missouri that was ransacked with several buildings burned to the ground…All before Trump announced or was known to be a contender for the Republican nomination to Presidency. Trump has a lot (understatement?) of faults, but blaming the current state of race relations on him is short sighted and a clear sign of bias against Trump. Just as the Democrats blamed everything on Bush for many years (some still do), you are blaming everything on Trump, and he has no power yet. Could it be that the President, the… Read more »
SV: Well David Duke sure liked Trump’s speech.
He liked it so much he tweeted about it enthusiastically.
https://twitter.com/DrDavidDuke/status/756334475223638016
Argumentum ad Hominem (circumstantial). Because a racist applauds means the thing they are applauding is racist too (which is a fallacious argument Debbie). I imagine that David Duke likes ice cream as well as you do. Can we call you a racist then because you and David Duke like ice cream together? This foment and hatred has got to cease = from both sides.
Rob
Hey, hey, hey, let’s leave ice cream out of this.
🙂
I like Carmel Turtle Cheesecake, but I’m also partial to Praline Pecan.
Yes Rob, what a racist applauds means it is racist in my opinion. David Duke is now running for the Senate and took parts of Donald Trump’s speech to make his candidacy speech. So yeah.
Debbie,
“Yes Rob, what a racist applauds means it is racist in my opinion.”
Boy I am so happy that it’s just your opinion. At least your declarations are not widely held, so there’s that.
So Ms. Debbie = if a racist agrees with you and applauds you at any moment that makes you a racist. Good – glad we cleared that up.
Rob
It would at least make me reexamine my view. If a racist applauds anything I say I’ve said something wrong, or he/she thinks his/her views align with Christianity. Either way I would have pause.
So if you say that the sky is blue and the racist applauds then that will give you pause. You are becoming clearer by the moment. My purpose is not to demean you here Debbie. Maybe I am hoping that you would think about it and stop doubling down.
Rpb
Debbie, I know this may be hard for you, given your complete and total blind hatred, but see if you can follow along. While I am not a neverTrump supporter, I can hardly be considered a Trump supporter. I have said from the very beginning that IF Trump was the GOP candidate I would have to see who his VP selection was, and then make a decision based off of that. So why you used me to target your David Duke attack post, I have not the foggiest. You see, one can disagree with A LOT of what a person… Read more »
Les: If my declarations were widely held, Trump wouldn’t have been on the Republican ticket. Not even near. But he is. So my declarations not being widely held, while sad, is not of concern to me.
As a Christian I don’t feel I could hold any other view.
Trump didn’t invent racism, his rise is a symptom of it. You can’t blame what is going on right now on Trump, although he is certainly cleverly exploiting it.
What racism is he exploiting?
His calculated refusal to repudiate Duke and white supremacists in general (I don’t know anything about Duke, I don’t know anything about white supremacists), and his anti-immigrant rhetoric was clearly pandering to racists. Certainly not everyone who supports him is a racist but he clearly wants racists in his camp, and he has been successful.
Satan invented racism Bill, so that isn’t quite a good argument.
But he did (later than he was asked admittedly). So…lack of repudiation to your likes makes someone a racist panderer. Of course this depends on what the word “racist” means. I would agree with the comparison with David Duke and racism (just in case you would accuse me of that lack of repudiation). Also…is he against all immigration – or “against the law” immigration? Is it racist to say that laws governing sovereign borders should be respected and those who don’t are lawless regardless of their ethnicity? Is that a racist demand?
Rob
I was actually on the fence about DT himself being racist until the Hispanic judge thing. But pandering to racists, yeah, that’s pretty clear.
And being a Muslim immigrant is not against the law, so yes, he’s against more than just illegal immigration.
Is he against all Muslim immigration? Or is he against immigration from areas of the world that currently have a history of terrorism without currently any meaningful checks? You do understand that current immigration law is a quota system with immigrants checked against both ethnicity and the areas of the world the immigrant comes from. My qualm is not against the Muslim immigrant (which the way you are using it sounds like a straw man) but against the radicalized Muslim intent to kill people and break things. Is this a legitimate concern or not in your opinion? Are those expressing… Read more »
“Is he against all Muslim immigration?”
It depends on what day it is. First it was all Muslims. Then it was all Muslims except politicians and sports teams. His view continues to be a moving target.
And also depends upon who the news filter/interpreter is as well. I thought his speech the other night was fairly clear on the points I already laid out, Now then again you have already placed him in the racist category. Is he a racist? Or merely confused? Of course his written position papers are fairly clear and to the point and they point to in my opinion a reasoned position outside of being racist. Why is it that you do not accept them as legitimate? I note you have not answered my other questions concerning weather concerns with current safeguards… Read more »
Are current safeguards adequate? I don’t know. I know the rhetoric coming from the Republican side is that they are not, but I have no way of knowing if what they are saying is true. Is terrorism a legitimate concern? Of course. Do I want open borders? No. Do I want a wall? No. Will Mexico pay for it? That idea is idiotic. Do I think DT is confused? Yes, most of the time. When he is properly handled, he comes across as moderately competent. When he is left on his own, he comes across as exactly the kind of… Read more »
Trumps rhetoric: “Muslim immigration” has changed over the last couple of weeks – his position for a long time used to be “temporary ban on *all* Muslims” – now if you listen closely it’s changed to “temporary ban on immigrants coming from *countries* where Islamic terror…”
I do not think this is a minor change – I also think it coincides with the selection of my Pence his running mate.
But I agree with Bill – it depends on what day it is – and how he can best pander at that moment.
BTW, racists aren’t the only ones DT has pandered to. He has pandered big time to evangelicals, but in the most awkward, unconvincing manner possible, and yet many of them are sucking it up like candy. I’ve never seen anything like it.
For the record, politicians pandering to evangelicals is nothing new. I’ve just never seen anyone do it so badly and yet so successfully.
Bill: does not lack of knowledge FORCE us to pause? Does a hunter blindly shoot in a bush not knowing what he is shooting at? If you do not know if the safeguards are adequate, then why for heavens sake would you advocate against someone who desires to pause until what is not known is known? Is it because those who wish to HALT such immigration happen to be Republican (that looked like a Freudian slip to me). Are you for this particular immigration without knowing that adequate safeguards are in place because those who desire it are Republican? That… Read more »
Just because you or I (or Trump for that matter) don’t know doesn’t mean no one knows. I assure you that the reference to Republicans (of which I am one, for now) was not unintentional. I am not a slave to the party, especially now that DT is the nominee.
No one wants terrorists allowed into the country. It is foolish to think our immigration agencies are not taking steps to prevent that. Are they perfect? Of course not. Will they be better under DT? I doubt it very much. Frankly I don’t trust anything he says.
Bill, I think it is foolish to think that our government immigration agencies CAN take the necessary steps to guard against the influx of terrorists using refugees as cover. Especially at the rate that the current Administration is admitting them into the country. Come now, this is the government that cannot run the VA correctly; that is running Social Security into the ground; that runs the TSA and IRS. The average background check for federal workers takes several weeks. Top level checks for Top Secret and other sensitive security levels can take MONTHS! And that is for maybe 10-20k government… Read more »
A little off topic, but I always find it interesting that so many people who mistrust either the good will or the competence of the government (as do I, often) simultaneously always want to give the military more money. A man once explained to me that it was because the military were mostly Republicans.
And now we have David Dukes announcing his running for the US Senate. So yes SV it’s hard for me period. End of sentence.
Debbie, you trying, and failing I might add, to make out Trump to be a racist by bring in Duke, and the fact that Duke likes Trump and plans to vote for him, is actually hideous. As Christians, this kind of slandering of anyone is uncalled for. Not only is it intellectually bankrupt, it’s UN Christian to do.
You forgot to add that this is only your opinion Les. Although probably widely held. 🙂
Right Debbie. We are all stating our opinions here. It’s just that you come across as your opinion is THE biblical view and the rest of us who disagree with you are either racists (implied of course because even you know better than to call us racists outright) or ignorant of our racists leanings. News flash. It ain’t.
Because to be honest with you Les, I do think you are wrong. I do think your view flies in the face of scripture and is more Republican at any cost. This is probably why it comes across that way.
Whoops, this was so surprising to me I forgot the link.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJ97gEFBH5k
And I can’t even read the 20 plus comments underneath. God help us.
Everyone seems to be stating opinion as fact, so let me share my facts. Race relations in this country began to plummet in January of 2009, the same time President Obama took office. He joined with notorious race baiters Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson and damaged race relations, bringing them to the boiling point of 1960’s Civil Rights times. The difference, before he was elected there didn’t seem to be a problem. In my fact, race relations were at the best point they’d ever been in this country. Affirmative action was considered being terminated, not because of a hatred of… Read more »
Hmmm…I note an absence of facts but a surfeit of opinion. But, that’s why we’re here.
Factpinion!!!
“Houston [police] officers were 23.8 percent less likely to shoot at blacks and 8.5 percent less likely to shoot at Hispanics than they were to shoot at whites.”
http://www.chron.com/news/texas/article/Police-shootings-study-sparks-debate-on-role-of-8403851.php
Interesting study.
David R. Brumbelow
This ceased being productive a long time ago. Let me help some of you move on.