Joseph Giles is pastor of Berkeley Baptist Church in Berkeley Springs, West Virginia.
There is a Christmas song performed by Alan Jackson and Allison Krauss entitled “The Angels Cried.” While the tears the angels shed in the song were tears of joy, I can’t help but think that the angels, and God Almighty, have been weeping fiercely over the complete disrespect for life that has been shown in America for these past many years.
Just as sad as these murderous acts are, I can’t help but feel God’s wrath is being poured out for equally horrible acts; the hypocrisy and indifference of many Americans in the wake of these tragedies. Black Lives Matter; White Lives Matter; Blue Lives Matter…until this country develops a true reverence for all human life, the hypocrisy will continue and the anger of God, as well as His tears, will continue to be seen!
The first hypocrisy I would point out is the “Black Lives Matter” movement. In the wake of Michael Brown’s death in Ferguson, MO, the Black Lives Matter movement exploded on stage. They were angry. They felt racial injustice had reached a frenzy level and Michael Brown was a tipping point. They were partially right. Racial injustice, which I once perceived as near death, has resurrected itself with a vengeance. Throughout America, the tensions between whites and blacks have been escalating. The problem…Ferguson, MO wasn’t a center of racial injustice until certain race baiters made it that way. The truth, backed up by video, is that Michael Brown was viciously attacking a police officer who was defending himself when he shot Brown. Those facts haven’t stopped Black Lives Matter and their continuing race baiting techniques. Angry young black people use social media to call for violence and death against police officers and white people. It isn’t all of them. It isn’t even most of them. However, some of them have been amongst the leadership of this movement. To claim one set of lives matter by calling for the execution of others is hypocrisy at its finest!
But that hypocrisy isn’t limited to Black Lives Matter either! The Blue Lives Matter movement, which I support, have posted some questionable articles online. While Officer Darren Wilson was completely justified in the shooting death of Michael Brown, there have been a handful of incidents since that fateful day that should raise the eyebrows of blacks and whites alike. Living only 2 hours west of Baltimore, the Freddie Gray case has raised national headlines and local headlines alike. I’m not saying Mr. Gray wasn’t deserving of being arrested, but one has to ask how a man arrested and placed in a vehicle slips into a coma and sustains life-threatening injuries to his spine before getting to either a police station or a hospital. While it looks like each officer involved in this incident is going to be vindicated by the courts, one has to wonder who is guilty and where is the justice? Most police officers are good men and women. We cannot deny the reality that there are bad apples out there, though. The hypocrisy is that every incident, including the two this very week, have Blue Lives Matter supporters jumping to the defense of those police officers without even knowing the facts. What if one of these incidents involved a corrupt or murderous cop? Do you still want to defend him for killing an unarmed man?
The last bit of hypocrisy I would identify is the All Lives Matter movement, again, which I am a part of. It is good to see blacks and whites, men and women, Republicans and Democrats join together to support the fair treatment of all human life…but I’m not sure if I’m seeing that at all! The hypocrisy concerning All Lives Matter is that many of the supporters do not truly support all human life. The very same people who support All Lives Matter fight tirelessly to see that Freedom of Choice is not infringed upon. What about the lives of unborn humans? The very same people who support All Lives Matter are the ones calling for the public execution of the “cop killers” that are plastered on my TV night and day. When are we going to come together as a people and truly raise our voices in support of all life, not some? When will our hypocrisy end and a real desire for the Sanctity of Life begin?
The late Roman Pontiff, John Paul the Great, repeated the condemnation of the 2nd Vatican Council in his March of 1995 “Evangelium Vitae:” Whatever is opposed to life itself, such as any type of murder, genocide, abortion, euthanasia, or wilful self-destruction, whatever violates the integrity of the human person, such as mutilation, torments inflicted on body or mind, attempts to coerce the will itself; whatever insults human dignity, such as subhuman living conditions, arbitrary imprisonment, deportation, slavery, prostitution, the selling of women and children; as well as disgraceful working conditions, where people are treated as mere instruments of gain rather than as free and responsible persons; all these things and others like them are infamies indeed. They poison human society, and they do more harm to those who practice them than to those who suffer from the injury. Moreover, they are a supreme dishonor to the Creator.”
Human life, all human life, is made in the image of God and is endowed with a spark of the divine. To demean any life, by means of murder, genocide, abortion, euthanasia, willful self-destruction (Death Penalty) or by condemning human life to less than humane conditions is immoral, wrong and sinful.
Here’s the challenge for us, as individuals and as the Church Triumphant: “Do you really think—anyone of you who judges those who do such things yet do the same—that you will escape God’s judgment?” Romans 2:3
Hypocrisy is a sin. It is a sin Jesus Himself preached against emphatically. It is a sin that unfortunately taints and stains the American Church and American Christians. It is a sin we must repent of and let God wash us clean from lest we receive the condemnation of the Almighty: “Because this people draw near with their mouth and honor me with their lips, while their hearts are far from me, and their fear of me is a commandment taught by men…” Isaiah 29:13
All lives matter. All LIVES matter. ALL LIVES MATTER. Let’s start a movement that lives up to that moniker, unless you like divine tears.
The issues here are so complicated. I watch a video of two officers shooting a man in LA, and I think there’s no way that can be justified. Then, a few days later the Dallas shootings take place and things just seem to be getting worse.
Racial issues are so difficult. Thanks for this attempt to wade through them!
They are complicated. What isn’t is the love of God we are called to demonstrate. That agape love could change the world, but it has to begin with us!
@Dave Miller – you wrote: “I watch a video of two officers shooting a man in LA, and I think there’s no way that can be justified.”
Are you familiar with the back story on this? The shooting of Alton Sterling by Red Stick police was fully justified. Referring to the actions of the officers as “murder” is what is not justified (not suggesting that you have but other posters on this site have).
Agreed.
Sterling had a gun (illegal as he was a convicted felon), he was struggling with police, and clearly making an attempt to grab that weapon. I am sorry, but I am glad those officers were able to go home to their families that night than risk some convicted felon, a thug with no respect for the laws, take his gun out and shot at (if not kill) a law enforcement officer. If your argument is police should wait until they are fired at before they can shoot back, that is a 100% guaranteed recipe for more police dying. Even more so than what is happening now with cowardly scum coming out of the woodwork ambushing and murdering police officers.
#backtheblue
Did you mean for “willful self-destruction” to indicate suicide? (Death Penalty) doesn’t seem to fit there; or, really in a list of racial issues.
Joseph Giles,
Thank you for this post. It seems obvious to be you have been seeking to understand, as have many of us, what is happening in our culture through the lens of a biblical worldview. I don’t always find that to be an easy task. Some issues before us are very complicated. At least they are to me. I have found that the events of 2016 have brought about some soul-searching for answers consistent to a biblical worldview.
I do have the same question as did Dale. Did you mean for “willful self-destruction” to be defined as “death penalty” or “suicide”? I ask that because I generally understand “willful self-destruction” to be suicide rather than to be a reference to the death penalty.
For years black people have believed whites owe them an apology. And that has been done a number of times, for we have had plenty to apologize for.
But we are now at a time when black folks need to do some apologizing.
For things like:
Misrepresenting the events of Ferguson, MO.
Destroying the career of a white police officer in Ferguson who was simply doing his job.
Making heroes out of criminals.
Jumping to conclusions when there is a shooting of a black man.
Not telling the entire truth when there is a shooting of a black man.
Chants like, “Pigs in a blanket. Fry ‘em like bacon.” A violent reference to killing police officers.
A disproportionate percentage of crimes committed.
Riots, vandalism, looting, violence.
When black folks do wrong, blaming it on white racism. Instead of accepting responsibility.
When it comes to improving racial problems, whites need to do some things.
But then, black folks need to do some things as well.
Whites need to listen to blacks about what whites are doing wrong.
But then, blacks also need to listen to whites about what blacks are doing wrong.
A conversation on race needs to go both ways.
Both sides need to be treated as responsible adults.
Black Lives Matter; All Lives Matter
http://gulfcoastpastor.blogspot.com/2015/10/black-lives-matter-all-lives-matter.html
David R. Brumbelow
My guess is that if you want to keep score, we might not come out so well on that one.
“News for Christians” reports that the Dallas Police Chief is a member of Tony Evans church in Dallas.
http://newsforchristians.com/
David R. Brumbelow
As a nation, we have sown the wind by our sanction of abortion and euthanasia. Now we find ourselves tiptoeing along the brink of a brand of anarchy that could lead to blood running in the streets. We may be on the verge of reaping the whirlwind of a culture of death.
Be not deceived; God is not mocked. Whatsoever a nation sows, that shall it also reap.
Something about this post and the subsequent comments don’t set right with me. Maybe someone could explain a few testimonials of either racial profiling for being black or being shot for being black. Because there are so many things that bother me about the OP in light of these testimonials. One by a Senator, one by the President of the Black Police in Texas, and one by Marty Duren’s post today. The most compelling is the senator Tim Scott.
https://www.facebook.com/SenatorTimScott/videos/1199078193457644/
Maybe Debbie the reason this doesn’t sit right with you is that he is calling everyone, which happens to include #blm. That’s probably what bothers you. You “seem” to think the only justifiable position is to support only #blm because they don’t seem hypocritical to you? But I can be wrong and you can show support for #alm and #blm equally right here, right now.
Les, you didn’t have time to watch the video or read the articles I mentioned, so I am not answering you till you do. That’s what doesn’t sit right with me Les.
Read it Debbie. Ok. So…
Les: Until you read the sources I gave and watch the video(all which takes more than 2 or 3 minutes) no answer is coming from me except All Lives Matter is not something I can support at this time. It’s not all lives that are being profiled or shot because of the color of their skin.
Debbie,
1. I read the link.
2. I don’t really care if you answer me.
3. Relative to other colors of skin, not all that many blacks are being profiled and shot because of their skin as #blm and the media and liberals and you would have us believe. I’ve already provided the stats that refute that false narrative.
Facts are irrelevant, Les.
Only perceptions and emotions matter. If facts contradict perceptions – and preconceived notions facts will be ignored.
Debbie,
No one is saying inappropiate profiling doesn’t happen – what we are saying is that BLM lies and creates a false narrative and in fact it itself is based on a false narrative. Their routine chant “hands up, don’t shoot” is a lie it never happened. Period.
Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson and the rest of the troublemaking baiters laugh at people all the way to the bank.
The real victims in Ferguson was the police officer who was falsely accused from the beginning and when the fax came out – not one of the liars helped him him and his life has been ruined – I think he and his family are still in hiding – and all of the business owners who lost their businesses or lost their business insurance because of the writing – not protesting – but rioting looting and criminal activity that took place all undergirded and justified in the lives of some by that lie.
Justice cannot arise out of lies. It just cannot.
*facts came out (not fax)
*rioting (not writing)
“. . . .no answer is coming from me except All Lives Matter is not something I can support at this time.”
Debbie, do you think that maybe you should re-construct this statement? Because surely as a Christ follower you have to believe that “all lives matter.”
No CB. I know exactly what I write and why I write it. I am fine with the sentence the way it is.
Debbie,
You don’t mean that. You are just being stubborn and prideful. I know you believe that all people matter regardless of their ethnic background. I have known you since the Stone Age and I know you are just angry and when you get angry, you also become hardheaded and prideful.
It is beyond the parameters of biblical Christianity to not believe all lives matter. You know that as well as I do. Your comment makes you appear heartless. I know you are not, so change the statement to reflect who you really are. . . .Please. 🙂
CB: I say this again ad nauseum. I am not saying all lives matter, I am basically saying I am not going to support something that hurts what the black people of this country are saying. Part of the problem is either you are misrepresenting me on purpose or you don’t read all the comments. Read all my comments then you won’t be missing what I say CB.
The should be I am not saying all lives do not matter. Read Lecrae’s Instagram. Don’t just read it, let it sink in.
Debbie,
For you to state ” I say this again ad nauseum” is again your stubbornness and your being prideful. You are not saying anything “again.” You are saying for the first time in this thread that you admit that “all lives matter.”
There is nothing for you to be “sickened” about in stating that. Debbie, the only reason I engaged you in this dialogue is because I know you actually do care about all lives regardless of ethnic background, but the way you expressed yourself was as if you did not.
Like I stated, I know you and I know you didn’t really mean to state that you don’t believe that all lives matter.
CB: After ten years of let’s say having to wear high waist boots around your dialogue, speaking for me is something you couldn’t do then and won’t do now. So don’t. You always do it very poorly.
Debbie,
I was not “speaking for you.” Nobody can speak for you. I was asking you to be clear in what you state here so people won’t think you to be a theological dwarf or just plain crazy.
You know you believe that all lives matter, so just admit it.
First, willful self-destruction would be suicide, but the overall quote has the spirit of condemning all forms of “life devaluing measures.”
Second, the point wasn’t just to racial profiling but the hypocrisy behind the movements. Unless you support life, don’t quite “______ life matter” to me!
Debbie, look at statistics this year. More white people have been killed in police related shootings by over 100. It isn’t white people who are currently calling for violence against a race or against police officers, and it isn’t the blue lives matter or all lives matter groups that are planning a “rage day.” So tell me why #blm is the only group you can trust?
The grand view point is that unless you are willing to stand up for all life, just sit down because we’re choking on our hypocrisy!
Yes, I am choking on hypocrisy, just not the reasons you have mentioned Joseph. A Senator Joseph, a Senator was profiled and pulled over 7 times because he was black. Even as a Senator he has been profiled because of the color of his skin. A policeman, President of the black police, has been pulled over by law enforcement and profiled. Their testimony is there is not one black man who does not have similar testimonies.
Dr. McKissic himself has given testimony after testimony of his experiences being treated as a black man.
. Do I believe these men? Yes. Yes. Yes. So yes I am choking on the hypocrisy. And I don’t plan on sitting down anytime soon.
BTW FYI: Senator Tim Scott is a Republican Senator from South Carolina. Just wanted to point out the Republican part.
again – no one is denying that profiling happens by police – no one is denying that sometimes the profiling is inappropriate – no one is denying that there is been a history in this country of bad police behavior toward those with dark skin tone – no one likes to see that – I do not like it –
I also know that it is better to analyze and observe instances on a case-by-case basis rather than on a general narrative – especially a narrative that is been proven false so many times. If inappropiate bias – or inappropriate behavior – or even murder (like in South Carolina where that officer shot the man in the back and I hope he gets the death penalty for it) is proven I am for severe punishment.
What if some of the videos (that have not been released yet) for the shooting in Louisiana demonstrate that the suspect was in fact reaching for his weapon that we do know was in his pocket because he had already brandished it at someone (which is why the police were making contact with him in the first place) – and the physical resistance along with a weapon on the suspect led to his death – would that change anyone’s view? Probably not. Minds are already made up – just like Ferguson and facts won’t matter. Just like there “Justice” can only possibly be defined in one way that “justice” being By the BLM narrative that is already been set up.
I will say without reservation that if the video shows that the cops did not have justifiable reason to pull the trigger – I will call for severe punishment for these officers – what I will not do is jump to conclusions – and I do not think it unreasonable to wait for actual evidence of fact before jumping on the “The cops are racist” – “murder” – “Black lives matter” – ” hands up don’t shoot” bandwagons.
( also, I don’t know how else to say this, but one can be for justice and one can be against police overreach without being supportive in anyway of the “black lives matter” movement – I do not support that movement and I will not support the movement – it started with lies, it is propagated by lies, baiters are are continuing rich off of those lies, and those lines are contributing to strife in our country – I will not support that *particular* movement.)
Lecrae wrote this in an Instagram :
#philandocastile” Arguments only prove my point. I will never stop. Justice. Side note the #AllLivesMatter hashtag is like spitting in the face of black folk. It comes off as extremely selfish and unsympathetic to a mourning person. Not because all lives don’t matter. Of course they do. But it’s very clear that black lives don’t to many in this country. No one goes up to lung cancer patients and says “Folks with Breast cancer matter too!” #AllCancerPatients matter. That’s Insensitive. True faith stands up for the oppressed and the broken. Obviously many can’t see the systemic effects of racism and abused authority. Many can’t see that racism has stained this country because they are privileged to not see it. Also Christians saying that ” preaching the gospel is all we need” ignores how sin affects infrastructures and societal systems. They project blame on themselves when they see these kinds of posts. You assume my anger is at white people and not white supremacy. No there are many “woke” white folks out here. Allies and friends. But if you ever trusted in anything I’ve said, if you’ve used my words to stir your hope or joy, then trust that same voice now. This is an epidemic that school books or church services haven’t taught you. And listen if you really really hate this post you are always free to Unfollow me. I’ll still love you.
An image bearer of God. A son. A father. #AltonSterling
This isn’t anti-American. This is remembering that all our histories are different.”
Tarheel(David) I have given facts so I do believe in facts. As for the statistics. There are statistics that also show that black men are killed by police more than white, so statistics are not reliable. They can be made to say whatever a person wants them to say. I do however have a burden for those of color who are being targeted and profiled and thin we need to listen and cry with them at this moment, not minimize their pain as I believe Joseph has done in this post. I do understand why Black Lives Matter was begun. The same reason the Civil Rights movement and Martin Luther King Jr. began. To make a difference for the black community. To stop this violence.
Debbie, You have not given facts – you have given narrative – you have ignored repeated facts that have been presented to you – even facts that that come from sources that would be predisposed to agree with your narrative.
“Too often, we judge other groups by their worst examples while judging ourselves by our best intentions.”
George W. Bush, Dallas, TX Memorial Service July 12, 2016
Side note the #AllLivesMatter hashtag is like spitting in the face of black folk. It comes off as extremely selfish and unsympathetic to a mourning person
#AllLivesMatter
If we have the heart of Christ, would we not wonder why black people in our nation have to assert that their lives matter?
Will we not admit that the roots of this movement lie in 400 years of dehumanizing treatment by the white majority?
Has the movement gone to excess? Absolutely. But we need to admit that Black Lives Matter is a movement because WE often acted as if they didn’t.
I haven’t thought or acted as if they didn’t.
That’s not the point I’m making. I’m saying we need to stop looking at it from our own perspective and instead try to understand why black people feel as they do.
It’s Christlike, is it not?
I’m not trying to pick on you, but your response is totally self-focused. “I’ve” never done anything to hurt blacks.
Fine. But that’s not the solution. It’s selflessness. Try to see why black people feel as they do.
There’s a GOOD reason why black people feel that society has often demeaned the value of their lives.
We need to seek to understand “their” side not just seek to justify ours.
What about the Irish?
Notre Dame? No, their lives do not matter.
It’s the only time I’ve cheered for Alabama in recent memory – when they played the Irish for the national championship.
CB, I think Irish lives matter, too.
Let’s not get crazy.
Bill Mac,
Nothing crazy about it. Great numbers of Irish people were sold in the British Colonies, even before the first African slaves. Slavery and ill-treatment of people has never been restricted to one race or nationality of people. The evil that men do has never been restricted to any one group. Sin has never been selective. That’s why “All Lives Should Matter to Christians.
Dave Miller,
The CRIMSON TIDE is more Irish than the Little Leprechauns of Notre Dame. Crimson is the new Green.
Tarheel,
Thank you for believing Irish lives matter, even though you are a Tarheel.
The black lives matter phenomenon began with the understanding that “black lives matter” really meant “black lives matter too”. Since whites are the majority, it was implied that white lives already mattered. That’s fine. I don’t have a problem with saying black lives matter. However, the organization that has sprung up around the BLM movement is, in my opinion, not a good representative of the black community and is doing them no favors. You don’t have to support BLM to agree that black lives matter.
“You don’t have to support BLM to agree that black lives matter.”
Exactly!
Dave M.,
I do try to see it with thier eyes as much as I can. I do acknowledge that The past has been filled with much that has brought about perceptions the people hold. I also acknowledge that there are still people today who give justification for that perception. I also like acknowledge that there are police officers who inappropriately profile again sitting into the perception the people hold. I acknowledge the perceptions.
Of course it is Christ like to show compassion – and of course it is Christ like to mourn with those who mourn – but it is also Christlike to cling to that which is true and resist that which is not. I grieve and mourn with the mother, father, siblings and loved ones of the Human beings who died in Louisiana and the one in Minnesota – no matter the circumstances around their deaths and the facts surrounding their deaths – these are human beings who lost their lives and were loved by the people around them.
When particular agendas (black lives matter) are not based in truth but merely perception stoked by emotionalism for the purpose of exacerbating division then I feel I must reject it.
As I said – one does not have to embrace the propaganda of black lives matter to embrace the biblical and Christlike halls of justice, compassion, and love.
Also respectfully I’ll push back a little on your statement that my saying “I’ve not acted as if don’t matter” is not a solution…. Outrage and sympathy/empathy are not solutions either.
Dave,
This thought entered my mind –
You’re not contending for the ignoring of the facts when dealing with/discussing the issues at hand – and I’m not contending for ignoring the emotion and perceptions when discussing these issues either.
Perhaps we are both speaking of essential sides of the same coin. Perhaps in searching for solutions to injustice we should all keep both perceptions and facts at the forefront with neither to the exclusion of the other.
I’m trying to make a very simple point.
The solution from our side is for white people to seek to understand how black people feel and why.
We tend to look at things from our perspective and wonder why blacks do not seek the world as we do. And we get very defensive. “I’m not racist.” “I didn’t do it.”
No. I didn’t. But there’s a reason why black people view the world as they do.
I had a black deacon in my church and he told me stories about life in Sioux City that boggled my mind. This was Sioux City not some Southern city. And it was within recent years. This dignified man with his doctorate, who worked at Goodwill, regularly got pulled over for DWB if he drove through certain parts of town. There were restaurants where he would not get served. They’s seat him, but they’d “forget” to send someone to serve him. A group of our elderly folks would go out to eat after church every week and one week by chance it ended up being him and a group of 5 or 6 white women. Some men approached him as he left the restaurant and gave him trouble. This was within MY tenure at the church (2005 or after). This man was not some kind of race warrior – he was a black deacon in a white church! But he told me stories that could give anyone a reason to be angry if they wanted to.
The drummer in my son’s band was a black man. They took a break and went to gas station/convenience store across the street from the church where they practiced. He walked out and the bass player was still there. He heard the lady behind the counter talking about how Bobby was probably stealing stuff. Why? No other reason than the fact that he was black.
Try to find a black man who has NOT been pulled over for DWB multiple times. Who hasn’t been given the stink-eye in a store. Who hasn’t been treated negatively in some way on the basis of his race.
We need to start trying to understand the black experience. NO, of course, bitterness, anger, hate, and reverse racism are not justified. No, the Jesse Jacksons and the race baiters are not helping. But neither are we when we refuse to understand WHY black people feel like they feel. It’s not our job to tell them to stop feeling mistreated but to stop giving them a REASON to feel that way.
And I think the “All Lives Matter” thing isn’t that helpful. Black people are trying to assert that their lives matter because they’ve been in a culture where they felt – often for very good reason – that their lives did NOT matter to people.
…and I’m trying to make a point that simply feeling and emoting toward those who hold perceptions and experience these realities are not a solutions.
It’s been repeatedly stipulated in these discussions by everyone in the discussions that what you’ve described happens both in reality and perception.
Solutions must come from everyone. We all must be introspective and compassionate.
The BLM movement is unhelpful because it’s based in lies, and narratives and linked to rioting and looting. Since inception of this *particular* movement it’s existence in the discussion has only exacerbated that which they are trying to dispel. I certainly understand that black people do not want to be categorized and assumed to be thugs/criminals and, I think, that many white people have good and godly hearts and don’t want blacks to be so categorized inappropriately – yet I contend that in using the BLM movement as a standard bearer that is exactly what is happening (and with good reason). In a lot of ways the BLM movement is poison to “race relations”.
As kind of an aside – wonder what justifiable and valid perceptions police officers live with every day? I wonder how many times they’ve gotten the stink eye going into a convenience store or a restaurant? I wonder how many times they’ve been perceived and assumed to be a racist simply because they were in a badge? I wonder how many times they’ve gone home to take their uniform off before going out in public after work because wearing it brings them reproach? I wonder how many times false assumptions have been made against them and an injurious chain of actions has been set in motion because of of those perceptions/assumptions?
One of the most chilling things said by chief Brown in Dallas was “we as officers do not feel respected and appreciated most days…”.
Can’t we feel for them? Is the “blue lives matter” #Unhelpful too?
These issues are complex there are lots and lots of moving parts – we can’t oversimplify these issues as there are lots of crooks and crannies where essentials in the search for solutions can get lost.
In discussing a path to solutions – facts and truth must be in the discussion just as Perceptions and assumption and the resulting behaviors must be in the discussion. It’s a both/and not an either/or.
Dismissing the real-life experiences of black people in America I tried to relate to you as just “feeling and emoting” is disrespectful and dismissive.
Never mind. There seems little point in trying to converse.
Ok. What are the rules for appropriate dialogue? What am I supposed to say? Seriously!?
I have clearly said (numerous times) that I acknowledge those real life experiences. I also said there are valid reasons for thier perceptions – I’m sorry I’m not using the correct verbiage.
Dave Miller,
You said that we need to seek to understand their perceptions and the reason behind them. You keep calling for us to “understand how they feel” – is that not a call to emotion?? Why is my use of that word so offensive?
When you dismiss other’s opinions as simply “feeling and emoting” there’s little point.
What distinguishes your opinions? You evidently do not believe yours are just feeling and emoting – only those of others.
We hear “Black Lives Matter” in the context of recent police shootings. I recently heard an interview with one of the leaders of this movement (don’t ask me the name, I don’t recall it). The person said they do not mean that ONLY back lives matter. Rather their point is a perception that African-American lives are considered “disposable” by some in American society. Is there any reality to the perception? Historically there is. I have read that there were a documented 3,446 blacks lynched between 1882 and 1968 in the South, and many think that there were more–when even one is too many. The vast majority (if not all) of these were for social and political control. Racial tensions flared during the Civil Rights movement of the 1950s and ’60s, though the actual responses varied from community to community. My father was police chief then in Talladega, Alabama, a town of 16,000. While there were marches and demonstrations there, there was no violence, and as far as I know, there were no organized KKK activities, then or before. Selma, Alabama, which was only slightly larger, had both violence and Klan activities. My father knew the police chief and the sheriff in Selma, and while he considered the police chief a reasonable and fair man, he thought the sheriff was a dangerous hothead. When I became an officer (in Montgomery, Alabama), I got to know many senior officers who were there in the ’60s. None of those veterans seemed to be lawless hotheads. HOWEVER, I once met the sheriff of Montgomery County, who implied that he was involved in the death of two activists back then! Also, there were white officers my own age who would stop a vehicle simply because the driver was black or otherwise hassle African-Americans for little or no cause. Not all were that way, of course; I remember an instance in which several of us detectives, all white, went to the District Attorney to ask that charges be dropped against a black man because we all thought the only witness against him (an elderly white woman) was mistaken. Police departments now are much better integrated, though many African-American officers are no longer considered “black” in minority communities. They are seen instead as “blue.” I doubt if there are many (if any) officers of my own generation still active, but racism still exists. It can be difficult to identify that in recruits, especially to know the extent of it, and know how to deal with it.
I don’t know all the facts in all these police shootings, and I hesitate to “condemn” any officer on the basis of incomplete information. And understand, I have no problem with justified use of force, including deadly force, by police. Even so though, it is difficult for me to believe that all these shootings were justified. And like lynchings, even one is too many. We, our society, has a burden. Exodus 20:5 says, “. . . I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generations. . . .” While God revoked that (Jeremiah 31: 29-30), society did not, so we still have to live with the consequences of sin perpetuated three and four generations ago. In terms of today, any fool can escalate tension, but the real question is, “What can we do to ramp this tension down?” Paul wrote (Romans 14:1), “Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters.” Verse 4 then asks rhetorically, “Who are you to judge someone else’s servant?” This is a call to listen sympathetically yet critically, to not allow ourselves to be polarized (James 1: 19-20), and to love as God loves us (John 20:21 and 1 John 4:16). In other words, as Christians we are called to ramp tension down and save lives, by what we do (directly, by indirect influence, or by prayer) and by our attitude.
John,
The problem with BLM is not that other lives don’t matter. I agree they are not saying that. The problem is that they are focusing on a few black lives and protesting both the rightful and wrongful killings of those few while, as a movement, they are ignoring the hundreds if not thousands of black lives being killed by other blacks.
In about one half a year, 277 blacks were killed in Chicago alone. Most by other blacks.
Discrimination is bad. But those 277 deaths, or most of them, were not caused by a white discriminating against a black. Why doesn’t BLM protest for those lives?
Why are they focusing on the few?
Solving/stopping the deaths of the few will not stem the tide of murders within their own community.
So why do they focus on the few?
Why does the mainstream media focus on the few?
Because it is politically expedient: they have political ends in sight that are not in the interest of the black people as a whole.
If 20 black Chicagoans are killed Saturday night and one black man is wounded [possibly illegally] by police on Sunday, what makes the national news? Which lives matter to BLM?
That John is one of the main problems with BLM and this whole media firestorm.
Mike, you and I agree that “black lives matter” does not mean that only black lives matter; so why should either of us say that “black lives matter” is any more ignoring black-on-black crime than it is white-on-white, or abortion, or any other form of murder? What I think they are saying–at least what I am hearing–is that they believe black lives do not matter to the very people who took an oath to uphold the laws fairly to everyone. Dope dealers took no such oath. Thugs took no such oath. Criminals took no such oath. So if a black dope dealer or a black thug or a black criminal kills another black–well, murder is wrong, no matter who does it, but when it is the very people whom you expect to protect you who did it, it is going to get blown out of proportion to the numbers involved–and I think rightly so. What my boss used to tell me about investigators apples equally to police, especially white officers: “We are in the position of Caesar’s wife. We must not only be right, we must also appear to be right.”
John,
Its the over emphasis of it.
1] Its not always or even a racist thing. Many of those officers are not white.
2] If it is just about unjustified police shootings, why then just Black lives? Why not all lives?
3] They have chanted for the police to be shot. When? Now.
4] Some shootings are justified but are still protested as if they are not.
And because of the violent and deserved reputation of the men from that community, officers are more prone to expect to use deadly force when dealing with those folks. Thats human nature. you could call it practical profiling.
Thus the violent nature of the community combined with violence inducing protestations have set all police officers on edge. Case in point: the last two shootings that involved black deaths were NOT done by white folk.
There are racists in the police force as in every walk of life. You can’t eradicate sin through protesting. But you can incite violence and make the already hard job of policing even harder through improper emphasis in protests, especially since the media is all for fomenting unrest.
Mike: They have not chanted for police to be shot. That is simply not true. Whoever chanted this was not part of BLM, the chant was not endorsed and in fact was addressed harshly by BLM.
http://www.msnbc.com/the-reid-report/the-truth-about-the-dead-cops-chant
Good thought. We all keep getting pushed into dichotomies, when real life is much more complicated and real love offers more choices. To see real life examples, go to the Washington Post website and scroll through their stats on incidents of police-related deaths. What a mixed bag (and it doesn’t tell the race of the police involved!). They almost defy classification. The state with the most outsize instance of police-related deaths seems to be California, and the most deaths there are Hispanic males.
I heard that the last two black men that were shot by the police [in Minnesota and LouisianaI believe] were not shot by white men. And although more whites are shot by the police than blacks, they are certainly shot at a higher rate per capita. The president’s nonsensical story of locks clicking as he walked down the street aside, a higher percentage of black men kill each other than any other group on group killings. It was mostly black artists that rapped about killing cops. It was BLM that marched and chanted that they wanted to see cops dead and dead now. And it is black men that at higher pcts. leave their babies fatherless.
Now i am not denying that there is racist bigoted white folk. There are.
But there are racist bigoted folk of every stripe. Even black folk.
But when communities publicly ride the government hand out line while their young men kill each other and make lots of babies they abandon, what does that do to the communities psyche?
They circle the wagons and look to society to find blame instead of looking inward.
Thats what many individuals do, and it is what close knit communities are prone to do as well.
So while we should continue to condemn white bigots and racist and hateful acts, the best solution is internal to the black community.
“The solution is internal to the black community.”
Wow.
Dave,
There is nothing we can do to change racists that we are not already doing: preaching the Gospel.
Unless you think revival is coming across the land, otherwise the white community of non-racists have little power in changing either group: the black community or white racists.
There are already laws on the books that condemn discrimination in vital areas like work, housing, medical care and so forth.
The racists give a rat’s tail about what we think. We should continue to vocally deplore them for their bigotry, but it won’t change them.
How many black people have been shot by the police this year?
Some and some unjustly.
But…
In Chicago ALONE 277 blacks were killed in 2016, mostly by other blacks. That averages over 1 a day. over 40 a month. The two recent killings of black motorists weren’t done by white police officers.
Those people’s lives matter. Or they should to us all. But BLM is not speaking out against those crimes.
Racism is evil and rightly should be opposed. But the black community has greater problems than extra traffic stops by the police. Maybe because of the great propensity of hard crime perpetrated by blacks actually leads to more traffic stops. And such stops hopefully will lead to getting criminals and killers off the streets, SAVING black lives.
Our politicians and our media have agendas, as well as BLM. And truth isn’t always in the forefront of those agendas.
I hate to be the one to break it to you Mike, but the “black community” does not start and end in Chicago. Chicago has a problem. There are thousands of African American people in Chicago who are aware of that problem and working on it. So thank you for acknowledging it and asking for people to work on it.
Now that your single city problem has been identified, can we have a conversation about the overall relationship between African Americans and the police and white people in the US? Can we do so by acknowledging that we DO have a problem and some of it has to do with policing practices? Is that ok with you? Or are you only comfortable building strawmen based on the situation in one city in one state in the US.
How about we discuss this stat- an unarmed black offender is JUST as likely to be shot by the police as an ARMED white offender. Does that seem problematic to you? How about we discuss the disproportional number of traffic stops of African Americans compared to the population at large. Not stops for speeding, or running a stop sign, or a busted taillight, but for “suspicion.” Can we talk about that? Or, how about we discuss how when a controversial police shooting occurs the immediate narrative, if the person shot is back, is their past criminal record (if they have one) and the picture chosen to depict them is always one that paints them in a negative light- compared to white perpetrators. Can we talk about that? Then can we talk about the sentencing double standard for similar crimes. Compare the two cases of rape from Vanderbilt and Stanford. The Vandy offender- a black man- gets fifteen years (deservedly so)- the white offender six months. Same crime- almost down to the letter- vastly different sentences. And that’s just one example. Can we talk about that?
The black community who you want to have an “internal conversation” about these issues has been talking about them for decades. Guess whose help they need to make changes in all the issues I have pointed out- the majority culture- white people. Know why? Because when you are the majority you need to be a part of the conversation so that an oppressed minority can be protected. Your voice is needed on the side of justice. So can we walk about that?
Or do you just want to keep talking about Chicago…
Absjourney, Chicago is the worst, but not the only. And I have a couple of LEO friends, white guys, who have many close African American friends. They have described what it’s like to get calls to go into certain areas in the STL area. These are war zones almost 100% African American. These men, who have great relationships with African Americans, well you bet they are quicker to draw their weapons on African Americans. And you bet every once in a while an innocent Af. Am. is deemed suspicious being in the area of a shooting and somewhat matching a description. So what!
How about you go and tell them how to police in a better, more com passionate way and to keep that sidearm holstered. Better yet, how about you become a LEO in those neighborhoods or in the S side of Chicago and demonstrate how this is supposed to be done. I hear departments are having recruitment difficulties.
I don’t deny what you say – we are in a mess.
But the attempt to pass this off as a “black” problem and say that “they” need to fix it internally defies reality.
It’s not all their fault. It’s not all “black on black” crime. There is a justice issue in America and the denial game isn’t that helpful.
Dave, there is a difference between saying “It’s a black issue ONLY” and calling for certain communities to take a more aggressive stand against the crime taking place in their communities. When law enforcement agencies are DESPERATE for communities help in getting the violent criminal elements off the street, and the public DOES NOT HELP, that says a lot about that community.
Further, I would argue that when the BLM crowd lays the entire blame for their situation on “white privleage”, white supremacy, racist white cops, ect, that is just as wrong as someone who says inner city crime is a “black problem only”. There are substantial numbers of people who genuinely believe that a “black” person cannot be racist. Just as there are substantial numbers of people who duplicity say “I don’t condone violence, but what do the cops expect will happen to them when they treat black people so badly?” As long as these types of people are the controlling voices within the BLM crowd, there can be no rational sit-down discussion with them. Their hate has blinded them and nothing short of Jesus working in their lives will change that.
absonjourney,
In regards to “Driving While Black”:
There is not a lot positive I can say about my ex-stepfather ex-cop. But there is one thing that he mentioned to me when I went on a ride-along with him that has stuck with me.
He said to the effect, “Tell me how I am suppose to tell a person’s race when it is at night, I clock a car going 15 over the speed limit, they are coming towards me with their lights on?”
You see he was a part of a department whose city was 95+% white. It was a small private community on a lake here in Missouri. However the state was taking them to task because of their disproportional white-black pull over and arrest rate. You see as part of this cities jurisdiction was a state highway. A state highway which people of other “races” drove quite regularly. A state highway which was known as a drug running route for the area, one which the criminal element from the regional “major city” used because it was “out of the way” and not one of the major interstates in the area. So this department had one of the worst population/arrest racial ratios in the state.
But as the majority of the traffic stops happened at night, one has to wonder how the officers “targeted” people because of their color.
On another “Driving while black” point, I have heard of (and know personally) “white” people who were pulled over by cops for being the wrong color in a neighborhood. Apparently, the only time “white” people entered that neighborhood was to buy drugs or get prostitutes. I assume that you would condemn this action too right?
@absonjouney – you wrote: “How about we discuss this stat- an unarmed black offender is JUST as likely to be shot by the police as an ARMED white offender. Does that seem problematic to you?”
This is apparently from a study you cited in another thread. This study is of dubious quality. It starts with an inadequate data set, resorts to suspect modeling, and fails to take into account the ethnicity of the shooting officer, whether or not the ‘victim’ was compliant or not, and if drugs/alcohol were involved.
Dave,
and also, in 2016 61 Hispanics have been killed in Chicago so far and all other races combined including whites total 18. Of the known assailants/killers 2/3rds are black. In the 2000 census 32.4% of the population was Black and 28.9% of the population was Hispanic. So we see a HUGE variation between population and the numbers killed and who the known killers are.
That points us to the idea that there is MAJOR problem in the Black community and within the Black community that extends well beyond the racists they encounter.
And raising stink about racism [and it is odorous] just covers up the awful stench of all that black on black crime and murder.
Mike, you are right on. But to state these things may cause others to either accuse you of being a racist or being insensitive to the plight of some past mistreatments of America blacks by whites.
But I doubt those people will sit down and have a reasonable fact based discussion either. There is about 2000 people who work at the postal distribution center with me and my guess is that more than half are black. They and I have no problems with each other, and many count each other with me as brothers and sisters in the Lord. They know I am not racist. What others call me is what it is,
Heather Mac Donald’s most recent book, “The War on Cops,” points out some devastating and sobering statistics: “Blacks were charged with 62 percent of all robberies, 57 percent of all murders, and 45 percent of all assaults in the 75 largest U.S. counties in 2009, while constituting roughly 15 percent of the population in those counties. From 2005 to 2014, 40 percent of cop-killers were black. Given the racially lopsided nature of gun violence, a 26 percent rate of black victimization by the police is not evidence of bias.” -Walter Williams
https://www.amazon.com/War-Cops-Attack-Order-Everyone/dp/1594038759/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1468779366&sr=1-1&keywords=war+on+cops%2C+heather+mcdonald
David R. Brumbelow
Since you like books, may I suggest The New Jim Crow and Between the World and Me. Might open up your worldview a little bit. There is more to this situation than the narrow little bit you are discussing.
It’s more comfortable to say “they” have a problem and tell them to fix it than to take responsibility and seek to do what we can in the process.
I don’t think Mike’s “it’s their problem” approach is particularly helpful.
Completely agree Dave.
It seems to me that anyone insisting that all or most of the fault/responsibility to solve the tension rests with one group or the other risks reducing and oversimplifying these very complex issues.
“Black Lives Matter” is a racist, hate-based group. A group that is unconcerned with the truth.
There is no war against blacks by police officers.
Now we have had more police officers murdered in Baton Rouge, Louisiana.
It is past time for blacks to start apologizing and denouncing groups like Black Lives Matter.
All Live Matter!
David R. Brumbelow
Ditto David!
When a substantial number of “Black Lives Matter” supporters are saying things like, “I don’t condone the violence, but what do the police expect to happen to them after what they have done”, that is when the movement looses any semblance of legitimacy. The fact is that there are is a fairly significant numbers of agitators using the BLM movement to instigate violence. The fact is the BLM movement as a whole, while claiming to be entirely peaceful is doing NOTHING to get rid of those agitators from their movement. They are pulling the Ponticus Pilate card, superficially “washing their hands” and claiming they have nothing to do with those extremists, while their actions (and inaction) is giving implicit support for those who are going around ambushing and murdering police officers. If the BLM movement as a whole does not clearly and loudly condemn these shootings; if they do not start capturing, holding, and turning over to officers the violent agitators who use their protests as cover for their violence; If they do not start offering themselves as shields in front of these officers who are in the line of fire by the extremists within the BLM movement, than I say the moment is indeed nothing but a racist hate group that has no real desire to stop the violence.
Indeed, they would be exactly like Hamas is over in the Holy Land, having a “legitimate” side and its “militant” side. The “legitimate” never officially condemning or approving of the terroristic actions of its “militant” side, all the while “blaming” everything on Israel. Hamas is a terrorist organization no matter how much they whitewash the “legitimate” side of their organization. BLM is quickly falling into the same pattern.
That is simply not true David B. They are not racist and as far as I know they had nothing to do with any of the tragic, horrendous, police shootings. The shooters have been separate from Black Lives Matter, as far as I know they have not resorted to violence as an organization.
I believe members of Black Lives Matters is made up of different ethnicities. White, black and whoever else joins them. Like Dave has said, I think they have gone extremes, but speaking for myself, I understand why the organization was started.
There is also so much misinformation out there by non- reputable sources and I am admittedly only reading the more reputable established news services.
Why is it, that at nearly every “peaceful” BLM protest, there are people throwing rocks and molotov cocktails at police? And why is it that when the police respond to those attacks, THEY the police, are the ones vilified? And why is it that “peaceful” BLM crowd does nothing to stop these violent agitators from disrupting their “peaceful” protests?
Further why does the BLM movement not condemn those WITHIN the movement who are saying, “I condemn violence, but what do cops expect will happen when they kill black people?!” aka they are saying cops deserve it. Yes that is exactly what they mean when they say things like that. And this is not some nut fringe BLM supporter saying things like this but leaders, celebrities, and people of significance within the BLM movement.
And you wonder why people are resistant to anything the BLM says?
Keep stereotyping SV
BLM rally in OKC last week. No violence. People hugging police and protestors and police praying together. Affirmations of good job given by both sides.
I was in Chicago this last week and witnessed another BLM protest on Monday. Once again no violence. Police and protestors working together.
You can keep painting with a broad brush based on right wing media and reality will keep poking holes in your assumptions.
Maybe you should go to a BLM protest and see for yourself.
Police and BLM working together on a march…You mean like in Dallas? Gee what happened there? Oh thats right, now i remember! And for every heartfelt offer of prayer and sympathy from the BLM crowd to the Dallas PD, there were an equal number of people saying, “What do the police expect would happen when they are killing us in the streets!?”
As far as Chicago, maybe instead of the BLM working with police on a march, they can work with Police in getting the violent criminals off the streets. You know, actually helping police respond to crime. None of this “snitches get stitches” garbage but complete and total support for the police, the vast majority of whom are NOT racists and who DO want to protect the black communities.
Perhaps, the one with a broad brush is not myself, but rather you. What news organizations to you listen to? CNN? MSNBC? Huffpo? You really think they are not biased? You really think they do not only show one side of events?
“That is simply not true David B. They are not racist and as far as I know they had nothing to do with any of the tragic, horrendous, police shootings.”
Debbie, Just as are many White people racists, so are there many Black people racists. And yes, many of them identify with the BLM movement, not all but many are. Common sense needs to come into play here. It is not rational to think that there are many who identify with BLM are anything but racists. It is also not rational to say that all who identify with BLM are racists.
If we, of the household of faith, do not get a hold on this issue, both Black and White, and speak honestly with each other, how and why will we even begin to think those outside the faith will change or begin to interact in a proper and honest manner to resolve this growing divide in our nation?
BTW absonjourney (and David M and Debbie and whoever else), it is not just myself or others on this thread that think BLM is fully or is a borderline racist movement. Men like Sheriff David Clark of Milwaukee think so too. I wonder if you folks would call him borderline racist, or biased against the black community, or falling into stereotypes, or consider him a “non-reputable” source?
SV you are determined to only see what you want to see, no matter what is presented to the contrary. That’s your right as an American. You are entitled to your own beliefs. You are not entitled to your own facts. I have presented first hand accounts that dispute your facts. Now all you have to fall back on is your rhetoric. You are welcome to it. All it proves is that you are part of the problem not the solution and you are as biased and short sighted as the people who you are criticizing.
When you are ready for a discussion about facts and not biases hit me up. I will be happy to have that discussion with you. Until then, there’s no reason to keep hitting my head up against a brick wall.
I will leave you with a video from my church this morning. Fast forward to about the thirty minute mark and watch the discussion and interaction- if you have the courage to face the truth and not just stay in your own world.
https://youtu.be/RCJcMXdM2FU
absonjourney, is Sheriff David Clark of Milwaukee county Wisconsin part of the problem too? He is quite direct in that he views the BLM, in its entirety, as a racist hate filled terrorist organization. I want a honest answer on what you think about someone like Sheriff Clark, and his views on BLM. I genuinely want to know.
BTW…your facts destroyed about a two mile section of Ferguson Missouri which is just minutes from where I grew up and was raised. Your facts never condemned that violence. And your facts continue to put forward and regurgitate the LIE that caused that violence in the first place.
A 2012 study, for example, revealed that African-American teenagers committed 6 times more murders, 3 times more rapes, 10 times more robberies and 3 times more assaults than did white teenage offenders.
National violent crime arrest statistics continue to reflect the disproportional rate at which adult African-Americans commit crimes in categories including, robbery, assault and rape.
Now let’s be clear here: these statistics are related to arrests, and one could argue that arrest statistics simply prove the point –police are racist.
Academic studies, however, reveal that these arrest percentages closely parallel the number of crimes in which victims identify their attackers as African-American, so there is good reason to believe the numbers are representative of what’s actually happening in our nation.
http://coldcasechristianity.com/2016/six-things-that-may-change-the-way-you-think-about-police-officers/
David R. Brumbelow
Here’s another study for you to consider. Academic study based on data from police departments. Some fascinating conclusions that might alter some of your thought process.
http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0141854
Abson, (-:
Here is the problem. Racial profiling, by the police, is a natural byproduct of experience. If they are more likely [or even think it more likely] that deadly force is to be used in a greater number of cases when confronting a black suspect than any other skin tone, the more than likely deadly force comes into the situation quicker. Thats not a racial thing, for the last two black men shot by the cops [in the news] were not shot by caucasians.
Rather than altering my thought process, it supports it. Why are black men viewed as such dangerous threats by police officers of all stripes? Because they have earned that by their actions.
Thanks for being honest and revealing yourself by your last comment. All black men are to be judged by the actions of some? I thought you believed in innocent until proven guilty. Shouldn’t the officer go into each situation with that mindset?
By your logic you have just proved the premise that you accuse BLM of. Because some cops are bad, they all should be viewed as bad.
Thanks for your honesty. You have just revealed the depths of your heart.
Abson,
You misunderstood.
When a community allows and propagates an extraordinary amount of vicious and murderous young men within its ranks, those outside of that community seek to protect themselves from such violence. Who outside of their community could look at a lineup of 7 young black men and pick out the two who were violent? Could you, just by sight?
So when a greater than usual pct. of men from the black community engage in violence and murder, they earn for their community and for their brothers f that community a bad reputation.
If 66% of the unlawful shootings in Chicago were done by police, wouldn’t that police force earn a bad reputation? Of course. But that doesn’t mean everyone is a murderer or unlawful shooter.
Now this subject is emotional and fraught with pitfalls, so I encourage you to leave personal attacks out of it. Instead, you could have asked, How does your statement not reflect exactly what BLM is fighting against?
The truth is, Abson, that BLM is not fighting for the many more dead blacks shot by their own people. But I think you agree with me that those lives matter. Yet BLM is ignoring their deaths. Thus their agenda is political not humanitarian. It is a struggle for power and influence, not to promote the health of the black community.
So, every problem in the black community is white people’s fault?
When a black man murders white police officers it’s the fault of white people?
Now that is really treating black people as responsible adults.
Whatever happened to
“I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin, but by the content of their character.”
http://gulfcoastpastor.blogspot.com/2015/01/quotes-by-martin-luther-king-jr.html
By the way, this quote was in our church bulletin today.
David R. Brumbelow
Didn’t say that either, David.
Doesn’t help when you twist my words.
Do we want healing and reconciliation or do we want to win?
You didn’t Dave but large numbers of the BLM crowd ARE blaming all problems on “whitey”.
And a large number of the problems in Black America were CAUSED by White America. Are we now trying to deny that?
“Are we now trying to deny that”
I’m not. I’ve acknowledged it.
I pray America never returns to legal and institutionalized negative discrimination based on skin color, and I will resist and fight against if she does.
In fact I oppose discrimination the favors people on the basis of skin color, too,
I hate skin color descrimnation. Can’t solve discrimination by discriminating in another direction.
When black communities continually reject the resources provided by law enforcement agencies to get rid of the criminal element within their cities, this despite decades of community orientated focus of those law enforcement agencies, they no longer can blame “White America” for the state of their communities.
When black communities have been voting one particular party in local, state, and national levels for the past 100+ years; a party which over the past 100 years has exercised near universal control politically over their cities, and held significant periods of control in their states and nationalities; and when people in these communities those who leave this party and join the “other” major political party race traitors and “Uncle Toms”, they can no longer blame “White America” for their problems. It should also be noted that this political party which commands the black communities support, is the last party to have a former KKK member to be not only apart of their leadership, but was so until his death in 2010. It should be noted that the party which has controlled the black communities votes for over 100 years is the same party that was largely OPPOSED to the Civil Rights Acts of the 50’s-70’s, and it was the opposition party, a party which is demonized by the Black community, that was most vocal in support of the Civil Rights Acts. And yet we want to blame “White America”?
In 1979, before I was born, my mom in a rough stretch, tried to get assistance from several US government operated job assistance programs. She was turned away because she was white. I do suppose I should be thankful, for if she had received assistance than her life may have changed and I would never have been born. But still, there are cases (more than most people would think) where so called “white privilege” is not only nonexistent, but reversed.
I believe strongly in what Dr Martin Luther King said in his most famous speech. I believe strongly in judging a person by the content of their character, judging by their actions, and not by or because of their skin. It seems fairly clear that significant portions of the BLM crowd has begun to reject this dream, and violate it on a day to day basis. When BLM crowds get away with chanting “Pigs (cops) in a blanket (body bag), fry (kill) them like bacon (another pig=cop reference)”, and very few in the black community speak out against these words, it leads to Dallas, it leads to Balwin Missouri, it leads to today in Baton Rouge.
So yes, until the BLM community gets their act together, there cannot be any real dialogue. So long as they argue that EVERYTHING is “white americas” fault, no real dialogue can take place. So long as they protect the violent criminals in their communities from justice, no real dialogue can take place.
You know, while I understand the logic of the argument, making your case by saying “but look at how bad black people are” just doesn’t seem a productive way to move forward. Everyone is responsible for their own actions, but there is always cause and effect. By the way, the vast majority of white people are killed by white people.
Another very powerful article by a black man by the name of Brian Crooks, who has spent his life being profiled because of the color of his skin. This was in the Chicago Tribune, but is from a post from Facebook.
http://www.redeyechicago.com/news/opinion/ct-nvs-being-black-naperville-america-st-0715-20160714-story.html
Debbie,
It is sad that there are racists in the police force. It is sad that there are racists in every walk of life. And it is sad that young black men in cities like Naperville get hassled by racists. What do you suggest be done to stop it?
Gentlemen, gentlemen; you’re missing the point. This is a ‘wag the dog’ situation: no police officers were murdered in Dallas last week, no police officers were murdered in Baton Rouge today. We resolved the race relations problems last month in St. Louis; none of these reported murders could possibly have happened.
Mike: That is a very good question and while I don’t have all the answers, I think we are doing it by talking about it. Hashing it out. I also think that we as Whites and Christians, but even whites who are non-Christians can give no tolerance when we see or hear racism.
Education too is key. Saying straight out that this type of thinking is wrong and why. Some were raised around racism and just like in our history, don’t realize they are wrong in their thinking or actions. Many know and just don’t care. We can give our support to those in the black or any minority community who have stories like Dave, Absalom and I have shared. This is just the beginning of what I believe we can do.
Mike: In addition I think the move messengers made in St. Louis last month was a powerful God thing move in light of all that has happened in our country and the world since the passing of that resolution. So I believe that to be a step in the right direction too.
Debbie,
I don’t think that what was done in St. Louis or what we say on this blog will change what that policeman in Naperville or most other racists. We can hope but most racists aren’t listening to us, or to any other anti-racist talk.
Second, the problems the black community has go far beyond the hassle they get from racists. And the despicable murders of young black men by racists pale in number compared to the amount they inflict on each other. But BLM ignores those black lives because their deaths do not further the political agenda.
Racism is wrong. That people are mistreated because of it is despicable. That people are killed because of it is horrendous. But what many see is a community that focuses on that and is ignoring a greater peril to themselves. And when the cry goes out that the problems the community faces is all or mostly due to racism, observers see it for what it is: a deflection away from their worst problems.
So Mike, your question to me was a baiting question? Seriously? I would refer you to Dave Millers answers otherwise discussion with you is futile.
Mike: Something you said has bugged me and feel the need to respond to this. You say you don’t think that standing against racism, or what was done in St. Louis will do anything. You are wrong. Very wrong. It is definitely the way we should have responded during the Civil Rights Movement and afterward yet didn’t. And it’s the right thing to do. It will make a difference although you may see it more in hindsight in history than now. It does make a difference. To no do so would be something I in all good conscience could never do.
Debbie,
It wasn’t baiting. i was hoping you actually had a concrete idea that would aid the issue. Does Dave Miller have a concrete answer? Or is the only suggestion that we just keep saying we should talk more while people are dying?
And how sour talking going to help the black people keep from being killed at a rate of 40 a month in Chicago alone? Most killed by members of their own community?
REAL solutions start with the people who have the problems and the first step is to acknowledge the problem as one’s own and not blame all one’s problems on racism.
As a community, as my community, we acknowledge that there are racists among us, and we condemn their hate and we condemn their hateful actions. And we voted to pass laws and rules that started and continued to give blacks what they always should have had: the right to vote, the right for fair treatment, and we acknowledged as a community that they were no different than we were except for skin pigment, which in essence is not a reason at all to divide over.
Racism isn’t going to away. Some people seek to blame others for their sins and also seek to take out the hatred they have for themselves on convenient targets. The Gospel is the only solution. And that only individual by individual.
Mike: Yes it was baiting because your answer shows all you want to do is rant how it is not about racism and I disagree strongly Mike. It is racism. And you are completely off the grid in your answer.
It seems to me that is the problem Mike, denying. Or just saying the Gospel is the answer. No Mike, living the Gospel is the answer. Living the Good Samaritan, living how Christ treated the woman at the well and others of her race.
Just saying the Gospel is the answer is a reason for you not to see that to too many whites, black lives have not mattered. And still don’t.
You keep saying racism won’t go away. Yes it will if we stand against it. Westboro for example is fading into the Sunset because people stood strong against them. You hardly hear about them anymore, if you do it’s not the powerful force it used to be.
The KKK as a group faded when Morris Dees bankrupted them in a lawsuit. People then stood strong against them. They may not wear hoods now or be a organization, but the idea of the KKK is raising it’s ugly head again.
Black Lives Matter has nothing to do with police being killed to my knowledge. They raised awareness about something real and unfortunately extremists are murdering police. We need to stand strong against this too. I am very pro-police, but even black police are saying it is difficult to be both police and black. We need to listen. We need to be proactive.
It seems to me you all are saying no one should have raised the issue when these wrongful deaths of Michael Brown, Treyvon Martin, etc and these last deaths occurred. You are blaming those who raised these issues loudly in media as the problem. That is just ridiculous.
Debbie stop right there because if you are going to continue to use Michael Brown as an example of “wrongful death” at the hands of police, I will call you out on it every single time. The “hands up, don’t shoot” has been proven to be a lie by the evidence. Brown was proven to have committed a strong-armed robbery just minutes before the shooting, which is why the officer stopped him in the first place. There WAS a physical altercation between Brown and the officer while the officer was still in the squad car, and there WAS physical evidence showing that Brown DID put his hand on the officers weapon. Further the evidence DOES show that Brown was charging the officer when he was shot. The BLM movement’s use of this case has been PROVEN to be false, and so why you are continuing to believe it is beyond me. One could argue that it is YOU who are coming on here for the sole purpose of “ranting”.
BTW it is NOT just Dallas and Baton Rouge where BLM supporters have been attacking law enforcement. It is Baldwin, Mo where a sub-human piece of garbage shot an officer in the back of the neck paralyzing him. It is the shootings in Bristol, Tennessee where a black man who was “troubled by all the police shootings” shot and killed one person, and wounded 3 others (including a police officer). It is the 2014 murder of two NYPD police officers by a thug who was “Upset about the deaths of Brown and Garner”. It is the Daytona Police car being torched in the early morning hours of the 17th. It is the Kentucky State Patrol officer murdered in September 2015 by a man who actually attended Michael Brown’s funeral. It is Jefferey Williams, friend of Dorian Wilson (the friend and “witness” with Brown when he was shot) who attacked and shot several officers including one in the face. It is about BLM rallies where the “peaceful protesters” are chanting things like “Pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon!” and “What do we want? Dead Cops! When to we want them? NOW!”
Even tonight as I am typing this, here in Kansas City Mo, there is a man in a standoff with police at the home of the most recent murdering thug Gavin Long, who is holding a gun and refusing to let officers search the home of this murdering piece of filth.
Yet you seem oblivious to these cases Debbie, so why is that?
Debbie, questions and thoughts;
“living how Christ treated the woman at the well and others of her race.”
Do you think Jesus told her of the Living Water because of her ethnicity? Do you think her ethnicity was relevant at all other than to demonstrate, again, that the Living Water is for all of humanity? That all who believe – no matter ethnicity/nationality – will be saved?
“The good samariatan”
Doesn’t this parable demonstrate the oneness of humanity in that in answer to the question posed to him “who is my neighbor” Jesus went on to demonstrate everyone without preference?
Don’t the woman at the well and the parable of the good Samaritan demonstrate a oneness of humanity rather then divisions of humanity for special treatment (either negative or positive preference/discrimination)?
Debbie,
I have learned that in a personal dispute it is better to ask than accuse. Maybe your style or your understanding is different. But each of us, as Christians, have a duty one to another, to deal with each other in love. To mature in Christ, to use your excellent idea, is to do more than talk the talk, but also to walk it. So I admonish you to quit bearing false witness. You might mightily think I was baiting you, but your thoughts are not the standard of truth.
You are right that we are to do more than talk the Gospel but to live it. The KJV many times uses the word conversation to mean exactly that: living out your life. And I am not writing a book so my replies to you are not 100% of my theology. You assumes that when I said speak the Gospel, I did not mean live it out. Living it out is one way to speak it. And I do assume that you and Dave and Abson do both, speaking and living out the Gospel.
I also think that we have family in Naperville who also live out the Gospel. And in Chicago, and in Minneapolis and in St. Loius and in Houston and Dallas, and Ferguson, and in every place where you find racism. And they have been living out the Gospel in these places of decades. And yet race relations are not improving, it seems, and racism, it seems, is becoming a bigger problem, say in the last 8 years.
So when you say talking helps solve the problem of racism, I see no evidence of that. That doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t talk, but that we speak to each other in love and with maturity in Christ. And NOT attack the character of the one you disagree with.
Racism is a problem TO the black community who have to deal with it daily. But they have bigger problems that affect them to a greater degree, that disrupt their homes, that leave a great number of their young men dead or in jail, and leaves their children fatherless. Racism is inflicted upon them from without but their deeper problems are inflicted internally by their own hands.
And from an outside vantage point, I see the community focusing on the lesser as if solving that will solve the greater. and it will not. Even if, the greater problem was due to slavery.
A sinner shouldn’t lie. But stopping that will not solve his internal and greater problem.
A women shouldn’t be discriminated against at her job by her boss, but if she is sleeping around, she has a bigger problem than getting a new and upright boss will solve.
The black community has a problem with racists, but minimizing or even ridding themselves of racists will not solve the greater and internal problems that they inflict sin themselves.
If, as you think, the problem of racism can be eradicated [which I don’t believe will happen] it still isn’t happening soon. Right now, despite much talk AND many living out the Gospel, the problem is getting worse, or it seems to be.
Meanwhile black men are killing each other and many of the who survive end up in jail.
But it seems that BLM and the black community don’t think that those black lives matter. I do. Do you?
All,
I think we’ve all acknowledged that reason alone is insufficient means for dealing with this issue. Reason can be cold and distant if not joined with acknowledged emotion.
I think we all also agree that Acknowleging past offenses and striving to feel what others feel (emotion) alone is not enough either. Emotion can be irrational and volitle when not anchored by reason.
Both reason and emotion are two sides of the same coin and are both essential to guide us down a pathway to real solutions. Neither will achieve anything alone – other than achieving exacerbated tensions.
I firmly believe that everyone posting in this thread are people of goodwill – people who are striving to approach these difficult and touchy (if you will) issues in a godly and God honoring way – perhaps we as the people of God should grant each other more deference, grace and freedom to speak our minds without jumping to the worst conclusions and making dialogue impossible by shutting down once disagreement is voiced.
I think I fail at the deference, grace, and freedom as much or more than most – but these issues are too important to continue in that trend.
Lecture to myself (in your presence) over.
Good night all.
I’ll add that Both reason and emotion are good gifts from God and therefore valuable in life and discussion.
Tarheel: “perhaps we as the people of God should grant each other more deference, grace and freedom to speak our minds without jumping to the worst conclusions and making dialogue impossible by shutting down once disagreement is voiced.”
Tarheel, I think this is one of the most difficult topics to discuss on an electronic medium. I’ve noticed “the freedom to speak our minds” is often met with “the worst conclusions” — the worst being charging someone with being a racist — not because they are promoting racism, but because they are making a point that differs. Difficult topics need to be plainly discussed and it is hard to do in an atmosphere quick to call disagreement and dissent racism.
I agree. Its a sad commentary though….if we as the people of God cannot communicate on these issues without retreating to corners and assuming the worst in others than there is no wonder that the world does it too….
I readily admit I am sometimes guilty of this as well – its so easy to assume the worst when you disagree with someone. I’m still a work in progress.
I think what would go a long way here is an attempt at empathy. I’ve been pulled over by police 3 times in my life. Not once did I even entertain the thought that I had been pulled over because of the way I looked. Not once did I entertain the thought that the situation could result in my incarceration or death. Imagine if you had to think that way.
I’m sure there are people in the world who dislike me. Maybe it’s my fault or maybe not. But I’ve never entertained the thought that people I come in contact with me every day may dislike me, or even hate me because of the way I looked. Imagine if you had to think that way.
Some of us are into history and have traced our family back centuries, even a 1000 years or more in some cases, back even to kings and queens or other royalty. Imagine if your lineage only goes back a little over a hundred years, and begins with “Slave”.
Most of us have had several jobs in our lives. But I’ll bet most of us have never wondered if our employers were forced to hired us, or if we might have to invoke the law to force them to hire us.
Imagine the founding document of this country contains the phrase “all men are created equal”, knowing at the time that it was penned, and for a century or more after that, that it didn’t apply to you, because you weren’t considered a “man”, or human. Imagine again that there are possibly still millions of people who still think that. Imagine in a country founded on the concept of equal rights, that 200 years later some segments of society still have to demand them.
I’m not invoking white guilt. I have no guilt whatsoever about slavery. All I’m suggesting is a little empathy. We look at racial situations very logically and think, if black folks just obeyed the law and didn’t rabble rouse, they’d be just like us. That’s nonsense and we all know it.
Everyone is responsible for their actions. Looting, murder, etc, all need to be punished. I’m not excusing any of it. But along with that, perhaps instead of demanding that black people be like us, we should try to understand what it’s like to be them.
Bill, I support you call to empathy. I desire to be empathetic. I acknowledge the realities that have lead darker skin persons to many of the perceptions they hold.
Rhetorical question though – does empathy require us to overlook irresponsible and untrue rhetoric that is so regularly shared…numerous examples have already been shared in the thread and other discussions, so I will not rehash.
You said in an earlier post “one does not have support BLM to agree that black lives matter.”
I for one am not seeking to ignore the perceptions and feelings of those who have darker skin tone that I do…without trying to put words in your mouth by using your phrase – I would like to say this:
*One does not have to universally embrace all the rhetoric that is spoken to be empathetic and agree that black lives matter.*
“*One does not have to universally embrace all the rhetoric that is spoken to be empathetic and agree that black lives matter.*”
I absolutely agree. As I said, I’m no fan of BLM, but I don’t think there’s much doubt that a lot of the sentiment on here suggests that blacks would be fine if only they were good like the whites.
Bill,
When I read the comments, I don’t see any of that idea: that blacks would be fine if they were good like whites. Goodness has nothing to do with it. The black community was mistreated and it has led to many social problems. Problems manifest themselves in various ways, of which criminal activity is just one. If whites are good why is this country spiraling down the toilet? Why are a lot of predominantly and historically white churches and denominations embracing infanticide and sexual sin?
The difference sir is that the blacks for GOOD and for BAD are closer knitted as a community than caucasians usually are. Thus the problems that affect some in their community are more likely to affect the whole community. And also to spill over into others in that community. And because of their closeness, the solutions almost always have to come from within. That closeness is a result of the persecution they endured.
Now other ethnicities like Italians or Germans or others were or still are close knit communities but the persecution they suffered [at least the European immigrants] was not country-wide nor as harsh nor as lasting as the black community. Thus in many ways those people assimilated into society [and it helped that they were white]. It also helped that they came to America free and not in bondage.
So its not about being good and bad or one better than the other. It is about the reality on the ground and recognizing where the problems lie and seeking solutions for them.And it is my contention that because of their closeness, the solutions for the black community for their most grievous problems must come from with in that community.
And that we as outsiders must continue to condemn those of our community that discriminate and commit hateful acts toward the black community as well as any other marginalized group.
And that duty should be done by us, especially as Christians, seeing how the trend looks like that soon, and before we know it, we will be a marginalized group.
But our condemnation of racism will not stop racism. The church has condemned sin from the get go, and look – sin increases all around us and in us.
Bill,
“… but I don’t think there’s much doubt that a lot of the sentiment on here suggests that blacks would be fine if only they were good like the whites.”
I don’t know who you’re referring to with that last comment – but I know it’s not true of me in any shape fashion or form.
“Everybody has asked the question. . .’What shall we do with the Negro?’
I have had but one answer from the beginning. Do nothing with us! Your doing with us has already played the mischief with us. Do nothing with us! If the apples will not remain on the tree of their own strength, if they are wormeaten at the core, if they are early ripe and disposed to fall, let them fall! I am not for tying or fastening them on the tree in any way, except by nature’s plan, and if they will not stay there, let them fall.
And if the Negro cannot stand on his own legs, let him fall also. All I ask is, give him a chance to stand on his own legs! Let him alone!”
-Frederick Douglass c. AD 1818-1895, former slave, black leader, American statesman.
David R. Brumbelow
Well certainly one man’s opinion from 150 years ago authoritatively ends our discussions today.
Dave Miller,
Do you think that maybe a man’s opinion from 150 years ago who certainly knew similar or worse struggles of an ethnic group to which he belonged is not at least worthy of some respect as is that of the words and opinions of men and women of the same ethnic group who live today and face some of the same struggles?
Frederick Douglas is a respected figure in American history who influenced many people of more than one ethnic background. It is my opinion that his words are worthy of consideration. That’s just my opinion and I realize my opinion is definitely not a final word on the issues before us as a people living in this nation or as brothers and sisters whose citizenship is not of this world, but I do think and grieve over what I see happening just as all of you. Therefore, I am compelled to ask the question.
CB. So much has happened in the last 150 years that Douglas’ words likely contained an optimistic cast he might not share now,
But neither David nor I knows for sure. The quote is out of context and useless here,
We need to stop denying. No, there’s no excuse for violence and murder – whether it is rogue/racist cops (small % of cops) or whether it’s angry black activists or lone wolf gunman (small % of black activists)
But both sides are wrong – those who blame it all on BLM and “race-baiters” like David and Mike want to do, absolving whites, or whether it’s those black racialists blaming everything on the white man and taking no personal responsibility. Both are errors.
It is not our job to “fix the blacks” but to look at ourselves and see what we are doing that we can do better.
People can pass that off as pointless emoting but it’s time we looked at what WE can fix and stop trying to blame blacks for all the problems or look to fantasies like Si many conservatives have done.
,,,and none of our opinions will authoritatively end our discussions today. But again here is some more of mine…
Fredrick Douglass, by the way, is no slouch when it comes to this topic. He lived the horrors we are talking about. He was perhaps what we might call the first civil rights leader – a predecessor to MLK.
Martin Luther King – a more present day man – called for judgment completely apart from the color of skin as well.
These men called upon the better consciences of fellow human beings and also argued that if we as Americans looked upon the greatness of America, the exceptionalism of the American Spirit and to her founding we would find no justification for mistreatment of fellow Americans – they was American leaders – leaders with faults as we all have – but American leaders none the less.
Neither of these men wanted special treatment, or pity, or even empathy (although we should strive to be empathetic of their perceptions as that coupled with facts will more likely lead us to solutions) – they wanted what American was founded on – the idea that God granted them by virtue of their humanity – life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Contrast with the “leaders” of the BLM movement – or Jesse, or Al, or so many of the other “leaders” of today’s movements. They are not seeking equality, they are not seeking a better America, they are seeking something very different. This is why I reject them, and what they say – they are about elevating themselves and having fame and frankly causing trouble. I reject them. I reject maltreatment of my fellow human beings. I reject improper and inappropriate profiling. I reject police over reach (which certainly happens). I repudiate racism (in its various forms).
Even though I reject these things,
I fully embrace the inherent value of human life (from conception to natural death for all). I embrace equal justice under the law and I emphatically believe these are to be equally applied to all without preference.
I support police officers as a general rule, but when it is demonstrated by facts that they have behaved badly and/or outside of their training or just plain evilly (as I readily admit does happen) I desire to see them strongly punished. We as a society grant them enormous responsibility and with that comes great responsibility. In reality they are held to an higher standard, I am fine with that and guess what as are the numerous LEO, of differing skin tones, that I know very personally and very well – but just as we desire fair treatment to our citizenry we all should demand fair treatment under the law to LEO’s. The police should not exercise power to on the street to be judge, jury and executioner toward the citizenry – but neither should movements have that power toward LEO’s.
“There is another class of coloured people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs and the hardships of the Negro race before the public. Having learned that they are able to make a living out of their troubles, they have grown into the settled habit of advertising their wrongs – partly because they want sympathy and partly because it pays. Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs.”
-Booker T. Washington
Dave Miller,
“It is not our job to “fix the blacks” but to look at ourselves and see what we are doing that we can do better. People can pass that off as pointless emoting but it’s time we looked at what WE can fix and stop trying to blame blacks for all the problems or look to fantasies like Si many conservatives have done.”
Who has done that in this discussion – passed off looking at what we can do to fix ourselves and do better as pointless emoting? In fact I have seen little of that in this thread and lots of – – if you reject the BLM movement you are not seeking to empathize and basically do not care to see things improve – – of course all the while the ones saying that unilaterally reject and condemn “all lives matter” so I guess what is fair for the goose is not fair for the gander.
Yes, some conservatives have used the salvo that liberals *only* emote and do not think….and liberals have used the salvo that conservatives do not care about people.. Both of these salvos are actually pretty simplistic approaches to the others reasoning for the positions they hold and their use is usually and primarily to elevate ones own opinion over that of others by setting them at a disadvantage from the get-go of the discussion. I.e. “Liberals don’t think – I do, so I am better” and “Conservatives don’t care – I do so I am better”. Neither is productive.
Plus I am not sure anyone posting here in this current discussion is a liberal – unless you let ole’ jess back in…most of us are likely someplace between center and further right, in fact.
Why can’t we, here on this forum all start from the place of commonality. We all oppose racism. We all want a more just society. We all want good to triumph over evil. We all want equality. We all affirm the intrinsic value of all human life.
I actually think differing opinions that each come from a place of goodwill can effectively balance each other and we can see great and meaningful impact IF we do not eat each other up in the process.
I think in discussing these issues we should heed some wise counsel from yesteryear:
“An 80% friend is not necessarily a 20% enemy” -Ronald Reagan
Dave Miller,
Since I am at present the only ‘mike’ that is posting, I do believe that you think that I am saying that I am blaming something on race baiters. And you think I am absolving all whites.
It is hard for me to see how you come to those conclusions.
Here is who I blame: [and don’t blame]
I blame whoever the officers are who shot and killed law abiding citizens or suspects when deadly force was not called for, no matter what racial background they are from.
I blame the shooters of policeman for intentionally aiming thier firearms and pulling the triggers and targeting our police officers, no matter what racial background they are from.
I don’t blame the black community for not wanting to be discriminated against and legally voicing their displeasure and pain through protests.
I don’t blame the BLM, whatever their make up on protesting hate crimes and bigotry.
I do blame the BLM for marching in the streets and chanting, “What do we want?” “Cops dead.” “When do we want it?” “Now”. And other hate filed protests that incite violence indiscriminately and outside of our justice system.
I do blame the black community for allowing their community to have such disenfranchised young men that knock up their women and leave them, commit a plethora of violent crimes, and kill one another, and then rounding up the wagons.
Finally, I blame every person of any ethnicity that discriminates against others based on their skin color. If they are not violating human law [may they be arrested if so], they are violating God’s Law and they will be punished by Him unless He has mercy on them.
One more “finally”:
I blame you for taking potshots at me instead of actually engaging me in conversation.
Any questions?
“This problem of spiritual and moral lag, which constitutes modern man’s chief dilemma, expresses itself in three larger problems which grow out of man’s ethical infantilism. Each of these problems, while appearing to be separate and isolated, is inextricably bound to the other. I refer to racial injustice, poverty, and war.
The first problem that I would like to mention is racial injustice. The struggle to eliminate the evil of racial injustice constitutes one of the major struggles of our time. The present upsurge of the Negro people of the United States grows out of a deep and passionate determination to make freedom and equality a reality “here” and “now”. In one sense the civil rights movement in the United States is a special American phenomenon which must be understood in the light of American history and dealt with in terms of the American situation. But on another and more important level, what is happening in the United States today is a relatively small part of a world development.
We live in a day, says the philosopher Alfred North Whitehead2,”when civilization is shifting its basic outlook: a major turning point in history where the presuppositions on which society is structured are being analyzed, sharply challenged, and profoundly changed.” What we are seeing now is a freedom explosion, the realization of “an idea whose time has come”, to use Victor Hugo’s phrase3. The deep rumbling of discontent that we hear today is the thunder of disinherited masses, rising from dungeons of oppression to the bright hills of freedom, in one majestic chorus the rising masses singing, in the words of our freedom song, “Ain’t gonna let nobody turn us around.”4 All over the world, like a fever, the freedom movement is spreading in the widest liberation in history. The great masses of people are determined to end the exploitation of their races and land. They are awake and moving toward their goal like a tidal wave. You can hear them rumbling in every village street, on the docks, in the houses, among the students, in the churches, and at political meetings. Historic movement was for several centuries that of the nations and societies of Western Europe out into the rest of the world in “conquest” of various sorts. That period, the era of colonialism, is at an end. East is meeting West. The earth is being redistributed. Yes, we are “shifting our basic outlooks”.
These developments should not surprise any student of history. Oppressed people cannot remain oppressed forever. The yearning for freedom eventually manifests itself. The Bible tells the thrilling story of how Moses stood in Pharaoh’s court centuries ago and cried, “Let my people go.”5 This is a kind of opening chapter in a continuing story. The present struggle in the United States is a later chapter in the same unfolding story. Something within has reminded the Negro of his birthright of freedom, and something without has reminded him that it can be gained. Consciously or unconsciously, he has been caught up by the Zeitgeist, and with his black brothers of Africa and his brown and yellow brothers in Asia, South America, and the Caribbean, the United States Negro is moving with a sense of great urgency toward the promised land of racial justice.”
Martin Luther King Jr. accepting the Nobel Prize December 11, 1964
“Yet what keeps getting proven over and over again with these incidents — especially since so many law enforcement officers nowadays are black themselves or another minority — the shooting [Castile] had nothing to do with racial bias.
For example, in the black-majority city of Baltimore, where Freddie Gray died of injuries while in police custody, minorities make up more than half of the police force.
Three of the six officers who had charges filed against them were black.”
http://townhall.com/columnists/rachelalexander/2016/07/18/philando-castile-obama-and-media-continue-hyping-latest-black-shot-by-cops-n2193966
In Minnesota, Philando Castile was shot by Police Officer Jeronimo Yanez, who is Hispanic. Little is being said about that. Perhaps “Black Lives Matter” wants to start a race war between Blacks and Hispanics?
David R. Brumbelow
“The black family survived centuries of slavery and generations of Jim Crow, but it has disintegrated in the wake of the liberals’ expansion of the welfare state.”
-Thomas Sowell
David R. Brumbelow
Our church is predominately white but has other races and is open to all races. Blacks and Hispanics have had leadership positions in our church.
Our church sign now says
“All Lives Matter.”
More importantly, not far from our church is a predominately black church.
Their sign also says,
“All Lives Matter.”
David R. Brumbelow
Amen.
Sunday morning, I asked the person who does our sign to change ours this week to read:
“God created all human life.
Therefore, all lives matter.”
Being empathetic to the reality of being black in America is a good thing. It’s a mistake, in my view to conflate our empathy with the BLM organization. BLM has an agenda and it might not be what you think it is. When we want to understand what is going on, be compassionate, be Christlike, is this what we endorse? It’s all pretty standard marxist perspective.
According to the website, BlackLivesMatter.com, the movement’s list of demands for “Black men, women, trans and gender-nonconforming people,” includes:
We demand an end to all forms of discrimination and the full recognition of our human rights.
We demand an immediate end to police brutality and the murder of Black people and all oppressed people.
We demand full, living wage employment for our people.
We demand decent housing fit for the shelter of human beings and an end to gentrification.
We demand an end to the school to prison pipeline & quality education for all.
We demand freedom from mass incarceration and an end to the prison industrial complex.
We demand a racial justice agenda from the White House that is inclusive of our shared fate as Black men, women, trans and gender-nonconforming people. Not My Brother’s Keeper, but Our Children’s Keeper.
We demand access to affordable healthy food for our neighborhoods.
We demand an aggressive attack against all laws, policies, and entities that disenfranchise any community from expressing themselves at the ballot.
We demand a public education system that teaches the rich history of Black people and celebrates the contributions we have made to this country and the world.
We demand the release of all U.S. political prisoners.
We demand an end to the military industrial complex that incentivizes private corporations to profit off of the death and destruction of Black and Brown communities across the globe.
These are matters for the political and legislative process, not for the demands of one group to be elevated above all other perspectives.
“We’ve got to say that all lives matter, it doesn’t matter what color you are—black, white, brown, red—it doesn’t matter, all lives matter,
The point is we’ve got to move beyond race. These police officers are the men and women that run towards danger not away from it so that we can be safe. It is time for us to be unified as a country. We’ve got to look beyond race.”
-Louisiana Governor Bobby Jindal, our country’s first Indian American governor.
David R. Brumbelow
Actually, I do not think Gov. Jindal refers to himself in that way…Rather, being born in American identifies himself as an American.
I dare someone to call Voddie Baucham an “African – American”
Pastor Baucham even identifies how the term African American does not fit and actually meets the definition of racist because it is based on skin color alone and not actual geography.
He points out that not every American whose lineage can be traced to Africa is identified as an African American – instead only those with dark skin are. To illustrate he says – when was the last time you heard a person of Libyan or Egyptian descent referred to as an African American? – no they are called Arabs or something similar again based on skin color.
Same with Asian Americans – when was the last time you heard of an American with descendants from India or Pakistan referred to as an Asian American…no that tern is reserved for those with a different skin tone (usually Chinese, Japanese or Korean) than them even though they are also from Asia.
SO see even the terms that are “politically acceptable” are based on skin tone instead of location of ancestry.
I can’t speak for anyone else but if you want to have a conversation with me on race it will have to be outside of the context of black lives matter. Officer Wilson was lied on and had his career ruined by a group who did not care one thing about justice. Hands up don’t shoot makes me want to throw up when I hear it today. That group has continued to spew hateful sentiment and lies toward the police in America. If one contends Donald T was responsible for his supporters using violence at his rallies because of his rhetoric how can the same not hold BLM responsible for the deaths of 8 police officers in a week, not to mention the wounded?
As to the conversation of black lives, all lives, blue lives matter I am certain the Bible speaks clearly that each believer is to make sure his life matters.
Wow! As I read comments to an article I posted, two thoughts come to mind: you guys have chased the white rabbit to far away from the original thesis (the hypocrisy of all these movements) AND…the angels are still crying!
The worth of black lives was never the issue. Do black lives matter? Absolutely, and anyone who says otherwise cannot be called a follower of Christ! However, the political movement, Black Lives Matter, is full of hypocrisy, which has been pointed out. They (the political group/movement) have not once spoken out or condemned the perpetrators of violence against black police officers!
The worth of blue lives was never at question. Men and women who daily lay their lives on the line for our protection and service are worthy of honor and respect. The Blue Lives Matter movement, however, has its hypocrisy as well. Every police shooting is immediately condoned and justified, even before identities are released. There have been times I’ve gotten the impression from this movement that “blue lives” matter more!
Certainly “all lives matter!” But even those who love to hashtag that are hypocritical. If all lives matter, how can you justify abortion? If all lives matter, how can you justify human on human crime? If all lives matter, how can you condone people being put to death? Obviously, most All Lives Matter hashtaggers don’t truly believe all lives matter!
I can’t remember who said it, but I’ve been using it for years. Instead of saying “Here comes that black guy” or “here comes that white guy,” but instead say “Here comes one made in the image and likeness of God,” until we as a society reach that point, no life will ever truly matter.
I am a rarity. All lives matter. Black lives matter. White lives matter. Hispanic and Asian lives matter. Unborn lives matter. Elderly lives matter. Law abiding citizens’ lives matter and convicts’ lives matter as well.
And I feel until we reach that point, Heaven’s tears will continue to fall!
Joseph,
Thanks for attempting balance. It’s appreciated.
More reasoned commentary.
Quote: “In fact, many whites have been begging America to address the disproportionately high number of black-on-black homicides, gang violence, high school dropout rates, levels of poverty, and family breakdown for a long time. Black lives do matter, independent of the color of uniform or skin of the people who end them. Rebecca Cusey’s recent article discussing her experience living in a majority-black neighborhood casts a bright light on the tragedies afflicting the black community, tragedies we absolutely must be concerned about.
Maybe BLM is right to assert police brutality doesn’t rank high enough on our list of priorities for aiding the black community, but the point is that our care for black lives expands beyond BLM’s narrow scope to cover these other struggles, many of which contribute to the black community’s high homicide rate.
May God rightly judge us for any complacency in unjustified violent deaths, but surely we should not be judged by others for temporarily reserving our judgement on new, highly controversial incidents, either.”
Read the rest. It’s good.
http://thefederalist.com/2016/07/18/i-dont-hate-black-people-if-i-refuse-to-rush-judgment-on-shootings/
Wow, Les. That article is good.
I encourage everyone to watch the embedded video in the article where a traffic stop went horribly wrong it – three body cams and slow motion see the assailant pull out that gun and shoot an officer.
I wish people would stop quoting the black on black homicide rate, which is only slightly higher than the white on white homicide rate. It’s not a helpful statistic.
Yeah, I see that – but it does provide a little perspective as to the agenda of BLM who seem to only think BLM and worth protesting over when they die in a (usually combative) encounter with white police officers….as that’s the only time we hear from them or see them protest.
Bill, but the black on black homicide rate does really matter. From Wiki:
“According to the US Department of Justice, blacks accounted for 52.5% of homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with whites 45.3% and “Other” 2.2%. The offending rate for blacks was almost 8 times higher than whites, and the victim rate 6 times higher. Most homicides were intraracial, with 84% of white victims killed by whites, and 93% of black victims killed by blacks.[39][40][41]”
The RATE of black on black homicides is off the charts compared to white on white homicide rates. It is way disproportionate based on the % of the overall population.
What is frustrating is to see all the focus on the relative small % of white LEO involved shootings involving blacks by so many in the media and here, while an astonishing # of homicides are being perpetrated against blacks by blacks themselves. I know there’s some outrage somewhere, but it is tiny compared to the outrage made public about a relative small # of officer shootings.
#BLM should literally camp out on the south side of Chicago (and other cities where there is a high B on B murder rate) until something is done to help those neighborhoods and maybe the liberal politicians who have failed these folks will get out of the way!
Under the circumstances, I hope you all won’t mind my mentioning a prayer request for a black life that matters very much to me. A pastor friend of mine had a mass behind his eye diagnosed as lymphoma. They are checking to see if it has spread into other parts of his body. Please remember him in your prayers. He is a very private person, so I won’t post his name or church online — but am willing to do so to those who contact me privately. Thanks for your prayers.
Done. Keep us posted.
Thanks for your prayers, brother!
And here’s what some of us have been saying all along. Just wait until the evidence is weighed before calling what LEOs do in shootings murder. This story:
“The repeated exoneration of allegedly racist cops by minority jurors and judges — from Ferguson and Staten Island to Cleveland and now Baltimore — seriously undermines the anti-cop movement started by Black Lives Matter and fueled by President Obama.
With half the Baltimore cops now acquitted in the death of Freddie Gray, a pattern has emerged where highly publicized cases against cops for racially motivated murder of black suspects have crumbled under the weight of court evidence.
It’s not to say these police officers made no procedural errors in their use of force, but they certainly did not commit the heinous civil-rights crimes the BLM movement accused them of committing. Even so, the movement continues to inspire fury against cops.”
and…
“Judges and jurors are debunking charges of “systemic racism” in policing as another of the left’s many false narratives. But the damage may already have been done, as evidenced by the vicious war on cops and a related violent crime wave in major cities across the country.”
Rhetoric not based in fact has been responsible for the wave of anti police sentiment, and unfortunately, deaths.
Link: http://nypost.com/2016/07/19/judges-and-juries-keep-acquitting-the-cops-that-black-lives-matter-call-racist/
I think you gentlemen need to take a look at this. This is what I have been saying all along:
http://www.etonline.com/news/193526_leslie_jones_claps_back_trolls_racist_tweets_after_ghostbusters_opening_weekend/
Disgusting, but little to do with the false narrative dominating the media and social media.
Here’s some more false narrative for you Les. Can’t wait to see how you and SV spin this one. Maybe he should have laid on his stomach instead of on his back. Smh
http://gawker.com/video-shows-unarmed-black-man-pleading-with-arms-raised-1784004594?utm_medium=sharefromsite&utm_source=Gawker_facebook
Abson,
Spin? Who here has ever said that there are zero cases where a police officer is involved in an unjustified shooting? Answer: no one. Do try to keep up Abson.
Now a few things.
1. As in all these kinds of cases, we should reserve judgment until a full investigation has been completed. See my last post and link for why that is important if you don’t know why we should do that.
2. This may have indeed been unjustified. So far I didn’t see any video of the actual shooting. Maybe that surfaces later.
3. If it was unjustified, the officer should be punished.
4. Was this race related? What was the race of the shooting officer? I may have missed it at your link.
5. Remember the stats several of us have repeated here several times. They do NOT support the false race induced officer shootings that you and others, particularly the BLM and the liberal media want to continue to put forward.
Last, this man’s attorney stated,
“In an interview with WTVJ-TV, Napoleon said he thinks the shooting was accidental, because his client was shot in the leg. He said if the officer thought Kinsey was a threat, he would’ve been shot in the head or chest.
He also said he thinks police may have been on edge after recent ambush attacks on officers in Dallas and Baton Rouge.
“I can’t say that it did in this case specifically, but it leads you to wonder that had those things not happened, had the police not been ambushed in those parts and had they not been on heightened alert, would they have come out with assault rifles and accidentally, I don’t know if it was intentional or accidental, shot an individual who’s laying on the ground with his hands up,” Napoleon said. “He was on the ground, he was laying on the ground with his hands up and he got shot in the leg.””
And thankfully the man is alive and will recover.
Spin? I don’t know about spin, but how about this.
While I recognize that the story is on other media outlets, the fact that you absonjourney will link to gawker of all places tells me a lot about you. If I am not mistaken you recently made a snarky quip against me about “right wing news sources”. Seeing now that you consult and consider gawker a legitimate source of news, tells me all I need too about you I should need to know if we are going to discuss news and political topics.
As far as the story itself, as Les has already pointed out, how about we wait for facts to be presented first, before we make condemnations one way or the other. You know facts? Those pesky little things required for conviction under a court of law? But you don’t want a conviction under a court of law do you? It’s not the nature of the evidence, but the seriousness of the charge that matters to you. In your eyes this cop, like all cops are guilty, and who cares about facts? Who cares about due process?
The Michael Brown case clearly demonstrates the need to wait on facts as ALL evidence, including multiple witness statements show that Brown was assaulting the officer, attempting to get his weapon, and finally CHARGING the officer when he was shot. Hands up don’t shoot was a clear lie. Those are facts.
The Baltimore case has facts also, enough that 3 of the 6 officers have been acquitted now, and a 4th had a mistrial. Facts, in a court of law, are showing that these officers did nothing wrong. Those are facts.
Wait for the facts, that is what we are saying, for which you label it as “spin”? Well if facts are spin, then baby, just spin me right round! Like a record baby!
How could anyone not agree with Les Prouty’s comment here?
And words from a Dallas police officer, a brother in Christ. http://tinyurl.com/ja7wf4s
Les that is one righteous piece which everyone hear should read and ponder. Thank you for posting it.
Rob
Rob, I thought it was a good word. I had not seen the statements by Al Mohler, Danny Akin, Russ Moore and Thabiti Anyabwile. Eye opening.
Eye opening is not the invective I would use – though I appreciate your irenic spirit brother.
Rob
Les,
Do you know if the quotes from the SBC leaders were in any way taken out of context? That’s the first time I had seen those as well.
Pastor Moose, I do not know.
My understanding is that at least the Mohler comment was a tweat. The others could also be as well. So at least the Mohler tweat is fully in context.
Rob
I think people citing Pulpit and Pen articles as relevant and authoritative is the Voices equivalent of Godwin’s law or jumping the shark.
Probably time to shut this comment thread down before it gets any more off the rails and people start using The Onion or Babylon Bee as evidence for their position.
Wow.
Abson, are you the one who cited Gawker? Let me see…yep. Hmmm, from Wiki:
“Gawker is an American blog founded by Nick Denton and Elizabeth Spiers and based in New York City, focusing on celebrities and the media industry.[2] The blog promotes itself as “the source for daily Manhattan media news and gossip”. According to third-party web analytics provider SimilarWeb, the site has over 23 million visits per month as of 2015.[3] Founded in 2003, Gawker is the flagship blog for Denton’s Gawker Media. Gawker Media also manages other blogs such as Jezebel, Deadspin, and Kotaku.
The site’s editor-in-chief has been Alex Pareene since October 2015.
Gawker has come under scrutiny for posting videos, communications and other content that violated copyrights or the privacy of its owners, or was illegally obtained. On June 10, 2016, Gawker announced it would be filing for bankruptcy as a direct result of the monetary judgement against the company related to the Hulk Hogan sex tape lawsuit.[4]”
Your implication about posting a testimony from a Dallas LEO which happened to be on P&P was funny enough. But add in that you cited Gawker. Well. We are in double hilarious range.
abson, if you’re still around these parts, you want to retract tab Gawker video as another example of race based officer shootings? According to a news story, we now know is this was not a case of a white LEO involved in a race motivated shooting as has been alleged right out of the gate by numerous other people I know. In fact, this was a Latino officer trying to save an African American man by trying to shoot a white man. Oh th irony.
See why you guys need to wait until the facts are out?
The article in Pen & Pulpit (linked above) certainly does not take Dr Moore’s statement out of context. You can read his article here: http://www.russellmoore.com/2016/07/07/shootings-justice-body-of-christ/. Alton Sterling was shot on 7/5/16. Philando Castile was shot 7/6/16. Dr. Moore posted his article on 7/7/16.
He also wrote in the same article: “If we believe that every person will stand before a Judgment Seat, we cannot then stand silently when we see injustice.” In the case of Alton Sterling, what injustice?
I am not familiar with the details of Castile’s death so I’m not commenting on it. I am a little familiar with the shooting of Alton Sterling. From all indications, it was justified.
Dr. Moore had ample time to research the shooting of Alton Sterling before posting his article. For Dr. Moore to write this is poor workmanship on his part or even worse, knowing the details of Atlon Sterling’s shooting, he condemned the officers for their actions. There may well be an innocent black man alive today in Red Stick who otherwise would be dead if not for the officers doing their job.
I can’t but wonder if Drs. Mohler, Moore, et al live in bubbles?
Yes – there is much “pandering” going on. Decency demands recantation. Have these leaders ever gone back and cleared the record after shooting from the hip and then finding out they were ahead of the truth? Did Dr. Moore ever revisit Officer Wilson and Ferguson? I don’t recall that he did. In fact I don’t recall that this blog ever revisited it ever after the truth came out. The Angels cried indeed.
Rob
Rob, agreed there were several authors and commenters on this form who actively pushed the Ferguson narrative that was so completely and thoroughly proven wrong – Worse than that they not only pushed that narrative very very hard they also have yet to come back and offer any apologies or clarifications after accusing officer Wilson of savage murder (including accusations of his shooting Michael Brown from a great distance and shooting him in the back) and I consider that to be a great injustice – Christians and pastors so vocally impugning a police officer prior to evidence repeating narratives and grossly false ones – and never a one has sought to rectify that.
I say if are going to come for justice – let’s bring justice to Officer Wilson as publicly on this forum as the false and scurrilous accusations were made against him.
Agreed Tarheel. The Lord knows the injustice done to Officer Wilson and will settle the score on all who did him injustice. Let us pray His servants will no longer harden their hearts like Pharaoh of old and seek peace with the Truth and say that they were wrong about it all. It may be “old news” but it is an infectious sore that will turn unless it is resolved = here and elsewhere.
Rob
I am going to be totally honest here, then I am done because nothing will change your minds, obviously, but ever since Donald Trump has been a Presidential candidate, it seems as if racism and bigotry have risen again in this country. It’s like he has put a spell on people, even Christians, and Americans have gotten more violent, more bigoted etc. Someone has said he brought out what was already there in Americans. And I think that is true.
But it has to stop. No one is anti police. That is simply not true, but there are too many stories of late of wrongful deaths. One that I read earlier and Absalom has shared being another and I am grateful for our SBC leaders saying what they have and standing against what has been happening in wrongful stops and deaths because of the color of their skin.
And I have to say of all of you, you can deny it all you want, but it doesn’t make it any less true. It sickens me that you guys(all white of course) refuse to see the injustice. It doesn’t matter if it is one or two or two hundred wrongful deaths, it’s wrong. The massacre of the Police in Dallas was wrong. It’s crazy right now and it seems that it has coincided with Trump’s bid for President and his statements at the beginning of his campaign that showed just what he is.
I know a 2 mile stretch of W. Florissant Blvd in Ferguson, Missouri that was ransacked with several buildings burned to the ground…All before Trump announced or was known to be a contender for the Republican nomination to Presidency. Trump has a lot (understatement?) of faults, but blaming the current state of race relations on him is short sighted and a clear sign of bias against Trump. Just as the Democrats blamed everything on Bush for many years (some still do), you are blaming everything on Trump, and he has no power yet. Could it be that the President, the man who said he was going to bring a new era of peace and co-existance between the two races actually has done severe harm instead? Again, Trump has a lot of faults, but this is not one of them.
SV: Well David Duke sure liked Trump’s speech.
He liked it so much he tweeted about it enthusiastically.
https://twitter.com/DrDavidDuke/status/756334475223638016
Argumentum ad Hominem (circumstantial). Because a racist applauds means the thing they are applauding is racist too (which is a fallacious argument Debbie). I imagine that David Duke likes ice cream as well as you do. Can we call you a racist then because you and David Duke like ice cream together? This foment and hatred has got to cease = from both sides.
Rob
Hey, hey, hey, let’s leave ice cream out of this.
🙂
I like Carmel Turtle Cheesecake, but I’m also partial to Praline Pecan.
Yes Rob, what a racist applauds means it is racist in my opinion. David Duke is now running for the Senate and took parts of Donald Trump’s speech to make his candidacy speech. So yeah.
Debbie,
“Yes Rob, what a racist applauds means it is racist in my opinion.”
Boy I am so happy that it’s just your opinion. At least your declarations are not widely held, so there’s that.
So Ms. Debbie = if a racist agrees with you and applauds you at any moment that makes you a racist. Good – glad we cleared that up.
Rob
It would at least make me reexamine my view. If a racist applauds anything I say I’ve said something wrong, or he/she thinks his/her views align with Christianity. Either way I would have pause.
So if you say that the sky is blue and the racist applauds then that will give you pause. You are becoming clearer by the moment. My purpose is not to demean you here Debbie. Maybe I am hoping that you would think about it and stop doubling down.
Rpb
Debbie, I know this may be hard for you, given your complete and total blind hatred, but see if you can follow along.
While I am not a neverTrump supporter, I can hardly be considered a Trump supporter. I have said from the very beginning that IF Trump was the GOP candidate I would have to see who his VP selection was, and then make a decision based off of that. So why you used me to target your David Duke attack post, I have not the foggiest.
You see, one can disagree with A LOT of what a person says, and then defend them when they are unjustly attacked. You want to blame Trump for the rise of racism in this country, and I simply demonstrated that this rise has been occurring since BEFORE Trump became a candidate. For “that” you want to label me a Trump supporter? For that you want to try and link me with David Duke? Is the hatred in your heart so strong that you are so blind that you make silly argumentative jumps like that?
You know it is funny, just when some of the Trump supporters are pushing me away from voting for Trump in November because of their treatment to Sen Cruz, YOU and some other neverTrump’ers come along and push me right back.
Les: If my declarations were widely held, Trump wouldn’t have been on the Republican ticket. Not even near. But he is. So my declarations not being widely held, while sad, is not of concern to me.
As a Christian I don’t feel I could hold any other view.
Trump didn’t invent racism, his rise is a symptom of it. You can’t blame what is going on right now on Trump, although he is certainly cleverly exploiting it.
What racism is he exploiting?
His calculated refusal to repudiate Duke and white supremacists in general (I don’t know anything about Duke, I don’t know anything about white supremacists), and his anti-immigrant rhetoric was clearly pandering to racists. Certainly not everyone who supports him is a racist but he clearly wants racists in his camp, and he has been successful.
Satan invented racism Bill, so that isn’t quite a good argument.
But he did (later than he was asked admittedly). So…lack of repudiation to your likes makes someone a racist panderer. Of course this depends on what the word “racist” means. I would agree with the comparison with David Duke and racism (just in case you would accuse me of that lack of repudiation). Also…is he against all immigration – or “against the law” immigration? Is it racist to say that laws governing sovereign borders should be respected and those who don’t are lawless regardless of their ethnicity? Is that a racist demand?
Rob
I was actually on the fence about DT himself being racist until the Hispanic judge thing. But pandering to racists, yeah, that’s pretty clear.
And being a Muslim immigrant is not against the law, so yes, he’s against more than just illegal immigration.
Is he against all Muslim immigration? Or is he against immigration from areas of the world that currently have a history of terrorism without currently any meaningful checks? You do understand that current immigration law is a quota system with immigrants checked against both ethnicity and the areas of the world the immigrant comes from. My qualm is not against the Muslim immigrant (which the way you are using it sounds like a straw man) but against the radicalized Muslim intent to kill people and break things. Is this a legitimate concern or not in your opinion? Are those expressing such concerns racists? Of course much of these arguments really devolve around the concept of sovereign states and border laws. Unless one supports the concept of open borders one is a racist these days. Oh well…..
As I understand it, he has many ethnic peoples in his company, including a number of Hispanic and African-Americans on his senior leadership teams. This does not sound like to me like a “racist” in the purest sense of the term – despite what he said about the Hispanic judge (and as I recall he only referred to the ethnicity of the judge in terms of what he said on the bench and the rulings he made = an argument could be made that the judge himself displayed bias using his ethnicity as the basis for his rulings = but you are right in that Trump’s statements were out of line).
Rob
“Is he against all Muslim immigration?”
It depends on what day it is. First it was all Muslims. Then it was all Muslims except politicians and sports teams. His view continues to be a moving target.
And also depends upon who the news filter/interpreter is as well. I thought his speech the other night was fairly clear on the points I already laid out, Now then again you have already placed him in the racist category. Is he a racist? Or merely confused? Of course his written position papers are fairly clear and to the point and they point to in my opinion a reasoned position outside of being racist. Why is it that you do not accept them as legitimate?
I note you have not answered my other questions concerning weather concerns with current safeguards against the radicalized Muslim are adequate or not = and if those concerns are legitimate = or even any comment to my Open Borders snark. I take it you have no answers for them – or are you conceding my points?
Rob
Are current safeguards adequate? I don’t know. I know the rhetoric coming from the Republican side is that they are not, but I have no way of knowing if what they are saying is true. Is terrorism a legitimate concern? Of course. Do I want open borders? No. Do I want a wall? No. Will Mexico pay for it? That idea is idiotic.
Do I think DT is confused? Yes, most of the time. When he is properly handled, he comes across as moderately competent. When he is left on his own, he comes across as exactly the kind of person that he is. Do I think he wrote his speech or position papers? Not in a million years.
Do I think DT is a racist? Other than the judge thing, I would have said not really, or at least not a hard core racist. I think DT dislikes people of all colors who don’t think the sun rises and sets on him. But I think he is just smart enough to come right up to the racist edge in order to get their votes, and then step back a little so as not to alienate the other people who support him.
Trumps rhetoric: “Muslim immigration” has changed over the last couple of weeks – his position for a long time used to be “temporary ban on *all* Muslims” – now if you listen closely it’s changed to “temporary ban on immigrants coming from *countries* where Islamic terror…”
I do not think this is a minor change – I also think it coincides with the selection of my Pence his running mate.
But I agree with Bill – it depends on what day it is – and how he can best pander at that moment.
BTW, racists aren’t the only ones DT has pandered to. He has pandered big time to evangelicals, but in the most awkward, unconvincing manner possible, and yet many of them are sucking it up like candy. I’ve never seen anything like it.
For the record, politicians pandering to evangelicals is nothing new. I’ve just never seen anyone do it so badly and yet so successfully.
Bill: does not lack of knowledge FORCE us to pause? Does a hunter blindly shoot in a bush not knowing what he is shooting at? If you do not know if the safeguards are adequate, then why for heavens sake would you advocate against someone who desires to pause until what is not known is known? Is it because those who wish to HALT such immigration happen to be Republican (that looked like a Freudian slip to me). Are you for this particular immigration without knowing that adequate safeguards are in place because those who desire it are Republican? That sounds like bias to me: whatever spoils my adversaries supper I am all for no matter what the consequences.
Rob
Just because you or I (or Trump for that matter) don’t know doesn’t mean no one knows. I assure you that the reference to Republicans (of which I am one, for now) was not unintentional. I am not a slave to the party, especially now that DT is the nominee.
No one wants terrorists allowed into the country. It is foolish to think our immigration agencies are not taking steps to prevent that. Are they perfect? Of course not. Will they be better under DT? I doubt it very much. Frankly I don’t trust anything he says.
Bill, I think it is foolish to think that our government immigration agencies CAN take the necessary steps to guard against the influx of terrorists using refugees as cover. Especially at the rate that the current Administration is admitting them into the country. Come now, this is the government that cannot run the VA correctly; that is running Social Security into the ground; that runs the TSA and IRS. The average background check for federal workers takes several weeks. Top level checks for Top Secret and other sensitive security levels can take MONTHS! And that is for maybe 10-20k government employees/recruits a year. The number of refugees being admitted into this country by the current administration is somewhere north of 70k, and the administration wants to be at 100k a year. Do you REALLY think this government, the way it has been run for several administrations, is capable of properly vetting all of these refugees? Really?
A little off topic, but I always find it interesting that so many people who mistrust either the good will or the competence of the government (as do I, often) simultaneously always want to give the military more money. A man once explained to me that it was because the military were mostly Republicans.
And now we have David Dukes announcing his running for the US Senate. So yes SV it’s hard for me period. End of sentence.
Debbie, you trying, and failing I might add, to make out Trump to be a racist by bring in Duke, and the fact that Duke likes Trump and plans to vote for him, is actually hideous. As Christians, this kind of slandering of anyone is uncalled for. Not only is it intellectually bankrupt, it’s UN Christian to do.
You forgot to add that this is only your opinion Les. Although probably widely held. 🙂
Right Debbie. We are all stating our opinions here. It’s just that you come across as your opinion is THE biblical view and the rest of us who disagree with you are either racists (implied of course because even you know better than to call us racists outright) or ignorant of our racists leanings. News flash. It ain’t.
Because to be honest with you Les, I do think you are wrong. I do think your view flies in the face of scripture and is more Republican at any cost. This is probably why it comes across that way.
Whoops, this was so surprising to me I forgot the link.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OJ97gEFBH5k
And I can’t even read the 20 plus comments underneath. God help us.
Everyone seems to be stating opinion as fact, so let me share my facts.
Race relations in this country began to plummet in January of 2009, the same time President Obama took office. He joined with notorious race baiters Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson and damaged race relations, bringing them to the boiling point of 1960’s Civil Rights times. The difference, before he was elected there didn’t seem to be a problem. In my fact, race relations were at the best point they’d ever been in this country. Affirmative action was considered being terminated, not because of a hatred of blacks, but because it had worked so well that it was no longer needed. Even the tumultuous culture commentary South Park addressed this issue, acknowledging that we as a society had reached a point that this generation doesn’t see race.
Here’s the hard truth. Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton made millions as the voices of Civil Rights. When their dream was being accomplished and racism was in the grave, they saw their meal ticket, their gravy boat, dying as well. And instead of getting a new job, they decide to revive racism.
Where are the cries of injustice when a black man shoots another black man?
Where are the cries of injustice when black people are the perpetrators of the crime against others?
Where are the cries of injustice when a white kid is jumped by a gang of black kids?
There are no cries because it doesn’t concern them. It isn’t black lives matter in their eyes; it’s ONLY black lives matter, and that is unChristian.
The only Biblical position one can take in this hornets nest of race wars in this country is that all lives, ALL LIVES (the unborn, the born, the black, the white, every skin tone in between, the man, the woman, the policemen, the criminal, the sick and the dying), ALL LIVES MATTER.
Barack Obama, Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, David Duke, and the rest are all cut from the same racist cloth! There race alone deserves protection. And their kind have done irreparable damage to harmony in this country.
Look at any timeline. It’ll back me up.
Here is my factpinion!
Hmmm…I note an absence of facts but a surfeit of opinion. But, that’s why we’re here.
Factpinion!!!
“Houston [police] officers were 23.8 percent less likely to shoot at blacks and 8.5 percent less likely to shoot at Hispanics than they were to shoot at whites.”
http://www.chron.com/news/texas/article/Police-shootings-study-sparks-debate-on-role-of-8403851.php
Interesting study.
David R. Brumbelow
This ceased being productive a long time ago. Let me help some of you move on.