And the Angels Cried (Joseph Giles)

Agreed.

Sterling had a gun (illegal as he was a convicted felon), he was struggling with police, and clearly making an attempt to grab that weapon. I am sorry, but I am glad those officers were able to go home to their families that night than risk some convicted felon, a thug with no respect for the laws, take his gun out and shot at (if not kill) a law enforcement officer. If your argument is police should wait until they are fired at before they can shoot back, that is a 100% guaranteed recipe for more police dying. Even more so than what is happening now with cowardly scum coming out of the woodwork ambushing and murdering police officers.

#backtheblue

Facts are irrelevant, Les.

Only perceptions and emotions matter. If facts contradict perceptions – and preconceived notions facts will be ignored.

Debbie,

No one is saying inappropiate profiling doesn’t happen – what we are saying is that BLM lies and creates a false narrative and in fact it itself is based on a false narrative. Their routine chant “hands up, don’t shoot” is a lie it never happened. Period.

Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson and the rest of the troublemaking baiters laugh at people all the way to the bank.

The real victims in Ferguson was the police officer who was falsely accused from the beginning and when the fax came out – not one of the liars helped him him and his life has been ruined – I think he and his family are still in hiding – and all of the business owners who lost their businesses or lost their business insurance because of the writing – not protesting – but rioting looting and criminal activity that took place all undergirded and justified in the lives of some by that lie.

Justice cannot arise out of lies. It just cannot.

*facts came out (not fax)

*rioting (not writing)

No CB. I know exactly what I write and why I write it. I am fine with the sentence the way it is.

Debbie,

You don’t mean that. You are just being stubborn and prideful. I know you believe that all people matter regardless of their ethnic background. I have known you since the Stone Age and I know you are just angry and when you get angry, you also become hardheaded and prideful.

It is beyond the parameters of biblical Christianity to not believe all lives matter. You know that as well as I do. Your comment makes you appear heartless. I know you are not, so change the statement to reflect who you really are. . . .Please. 🙂

CB: I say this again ad nauseum. I am not saying all lives matter, I am basically saying I am not going to support something that hurts what the black people of this country are saying. Part of the problem is either you are misrepresenting me on purpose or you don’t read all the comments. Read all my comments then you won’t be missing what I say CB.

The should be I am not saying all lives do not matter. Read Lecrae’s Instagram. Don’t just read it, let it sink in.

Debbie,

For you to state ” I say this again ad nauseum” is again your stubbornness and your being prideful. You are not saying anything “again.” You are saying for the first time in this thread that you admit that “all lives matter.”

There is nothing for you to be “sickened” about in stating that. Debbie, the only reason I engaged you in this dialogue is because I know you actually do care about all lives regardless of ethnic background, but the way you expressed yourself was as if you did not.

Like I stated, I know you and I know you didn’t really mean to state that you don’t believe that all lives matter.

CB: After ten years of let’s say having to wear high waist boots around your dialogue, speaking for me is something you couldn’t do then and won’t do now. So don’t. You always do it very poorly.

Debbie,

I was not “speaking for you.” Nobody can speak for you. I was asking you to be clear in what you state here so people won’t think you to be a theological dwarf or just plain crazy.

You know you believe that all lives matter, so just admit it.

again – no one is denying that profiling happens by police – no one is denying that sometimes the profiling is inappropriate – no one is denying that there is been a history in this country of bad police behavior toward those with dark skin tone – no one likes to see that – I do not like it – I also know that it is better to analyze and observe instances on a case-by-case basis rather than on a general narrative – especially a narrative that is been proven false so many times. If inappropiate bias – or inappropriate behavior – or even murder (like in South Carolina where that officer shot the man in the back and I hope he gets the death penalty for it) is proven I am for severe punishment. What if some of the videos (that have not been released yet) for the shooting in Louisiana demonstrate that the suspect was in fact reaching for his weapon that we do know was in his pocket because he had already brandished it at someone (which is why the police were making contact with him in the first place) – and the physical resistance along with a weapon on the suspect led to his death – would that change anyone’s view? Probably not. Minds are already made up – just like Ferguson and facts won’t matter. Just like there “Justice” can only possibly be defined in one way that “justice” being By the BLM narrative that is already been set up. I will say without reservation that if the video shows that the cops did not have justifiable reason to pull the trigger – I will call for severe punishment for these officers – what I will not do is jump to conclusions – and I do not think it unreasonable to wait for actual evidence of fact before jumping on the “The cops are racist” – “murder” – “Black lives matter” – ” hands up don’t shoot” bandwagons. ( also, I don’t know how else to say this, but one can be for justice and one can be against police overreach without being supportive in anyway of the “black lives matter” movement – I do not support that movement and I will not support the movement – it started with lies, it is propagated by lies, baiters are are continuing rich off of those lies,… Read more »

I haven’t thought or acted as if they didn’t.

What about the Irish?

CB, I think Irish lives matter, too.

What about the Irish?

Let’s not get crazy.

Bill Mac,

Nothing crazy about it. Great numbers of Irish people were sold in the British Colonies, even before the first African slaves. Slavery and ill-treatment of people has never been restricted to one race or nationality of people. The evil that men do has never been restricted to any one group. Sin has never been selective. That’s why “All Lives Should Matter to Christians.

Dave Miller,

The CRIMSON TIDE is more Irish than the Little Leprechauns of Notre Dame. Crimson is the new Green.

Tarheel,

Thank you for believing Irish lives matter, even though you are a Tarheel.

…and I’m trying to make a point that simply feeling and emoting toward those who hold perceptions and experience these realities are not a solutions.

It’s been repeatedly stipulated in these discussions by everyone in the discussions that what you’ve described happens both in reality and perception.

Solutions must come from everyone. We all must be introspective and compassionate.

The BLM movement is unhelpful because it’s based in lies, and narratives and linked to rioting and looting. Since inception of this *particular* movement it’s existence in the discussion has only exacerbated that which they are trying to dispel. I certainly understand that black people do not want to be categorized and assumed to be thugs/criminals and, I think, that many white people have good and godly hearts and don’t want blacks to be so categorized inappropriately – yet I contend that in using the BLM movement as a standard bearer that is exactly what is happening (and with good reason). In a lot of ways the BLM movement is poison to “race relations”.

As kind of an aside – wonder what justifiable and valid perceptions police officers live with every day? I wonder how many times they’ve gotten the stink eye going into a convenience store or a restaurant? I wonder how many times they’ve been perceived and assumed to be a racist simply because they were in a badge? I wonder how many times they’ve gone home to take their uniform off before going out in public after work because wearing it brings them reproach? I wonder how many times false assumptions have been made against them and an injurious chain of actions has been set in motion because of of those perceptions/assumptions?

One of the most chilling things said by chief Brown in Dallas was “we as officers do not feel respected and appreciated most days…”.

Can’t we feel for them? Is the “blue lives matter” #Unhelpful too?

These issues are complex there are lots and lots of moving parts – we can’t oversimplify these issues as there are lots of crooks and crannies where essentials in the search for solutions can get lost.

In discussing a path to solutions – facts and truth must be in the discussion just as Perceptions and assumption and the resulting behaviors must be in the discussion. It’s a both/and not an either/or.

Ok. What are the rules for appropriate dialogue? What am I supposed to say? Seriously!?

I have clearly said (numerous times) that I acknowledge those real life experiences. I also said there are valid reasons for thier perceptions – I’m sorry I’m not using the correct verbiage.

Dave Miller,

You said that we need to seek to understand their perceptions and the reason behind them. You keep calling for us to “understand how they feel” – is that not a call to emotion?? Why is my use of that word so offensive?

We hear “Black Lives Matter” in the context of recent police shootings. I recently heard an interview with one of the leaders of this movement (don’t ask me the name, I don’t recall it). The person said they do not mean that ONLY back lives matter. Rather their point is a perception that African-American lives are considered “disposable” by some in American society. Is there any reality to the perception? Historically there is. I have read that there were a documented 3,446 blacks lynched between 1882 and 1968 in the South, and many think that there were more–when even one is too many. The vast majority (if not all) of these were for social and political control. Racial tensions flared during the Civil Rights movement of the 1950s and ’60s, though the actual responses varied from community to community. My father was police chief then in Talladega, Alabama, a town of 16,000. While there were marches and demonstrations there, there was no violence, and as far as I know, there were no organized KKK activities, then or before. Selma, Alabama, which was only slightly larger, had both violence and Klan activities. My father knew the police chief and the sheriff in Selma, and while he considered the police chief a reasonable and fair man, he thought the sheriff was a dangerous hothead. When I became an officer (in Montgomery, Alabama), I got to know many senior officers who were there in the ’60s. None of those veterans seemed to be lawless hotheads. HOWEVER, I once met the sheriff of Montgomery County, who implied that he was involved in the death of two activists back then! Also, there were white officers my own age who would stop a vehicle simply because the driver was black or otherwise hassle African-Americans for little or no cause. Not all were that way, of course; I remember an instance in which several of us detectives, all white, went to the District Attorney to ask that charges be dropped against a black man because we all thought the only witness against him (an elderly white woman) was mistaken. Police departments now are much better integrated, though many African-American officers are no longer considered “black” in minority communities. They are seen instead as “blue.” I doubt if there are many (if any) officers of my own generation still active, but racism still exists. It can be difficult… Read more »

John,
The problem with BLM is not that other lives don’t matter. I agree they are not saying that. The problem is that they are focusing on a few black lives and protesting both the rightful and wrongful killings of those few while, as a movement, they are ignoring the hundreds if not thousands of black lives being killed by other blacks.
In about one half a year, 277 blacks were killed in Chicago alone. Most by other blacks.
Discrimination is bad. But those 277 deaths, or most of them, were not caused by a white discriminating against a black. Why doesn’t BLM protest for those lives?

Why are they focusing on the few?

Solving/stopping the deaths of the few will not stem the tide of murders within their own community.

So why do they focus on the few?
Why does the mainstream media focus on the few?

Because it is politically expedient: they have political ends in sight that are not in the interest of the black people as a whole.

If 20 black Chicagoans are killed Saturday night and one black man is wounded [possibly illegally] by police on Sunday, what makes the national news? Which lives matter to BLM?

That John is one of the main problems with BLM and this whole media firestorm.

Mike, you and I agree that “black lives matter” does not mean that only black lives matter; so why should either of us say that “black lives matter” is any more ignoring black-on-black crime than it is white-on-white, or abortion, or any other form of murder? What I think they are saying–at least what I am hearing–is that they believe black lives do not matter to the very people who took an oath to uphold the laws fairly to everyone. Dope dealers took no such oath. Thugs took no such oath. Criminals took no such oath. So if a black dope dealer or a black thug or a black criminal kills another black–well, murder is wrong, no matter who does it, but when it is the very people whom you expect to protect you who did it, it is going to get blown out of proportion to the numbers involved–and I think rightly so. What my boss used to tell me about investigators apples equally to police, especially white officers: “We are in the position of Caesar’s wife. We must not only be right, we must also appear to be right.”

John,
Its the over emphasis of it.
1] Its not always or even a racist thing. Many of those officers are not white.
2] If it is just about unjustified police shootings, why then just Black lives? Why not all lives?
3] They have chanted for the police to be shot. When? Now.
4] Some shootings are justified but are still protested as if they are not.

And because of the violent and deserved reputation of the men from that community, officers are more prone to expect to use deadly force when dealing with those folks. Thats human nature. you could call it practical profiling.

Thus the violent nature of the community combined with violence inducing protestations have set all police officers on edge. Case in point: the last two shootings that involved black deaths were NOT done by white folk.

There are racists in the police force as in every walk of life. You can’t eradicate sin through protesting. But you can incite violence and make the already hard job of policing even harder through improper emphasis in protests, especially since the media is all for fomenting unrest.

Mike: They have not chanted for police to be shot. That is simply not true. Whoever chanted this was not part of BLM, the chant was not endorsed and in fact was addressed harshly by BLM.

http://www.msnbc.com/the-reid-report/the-truth-about-the-dead-cops-chant

Dave,
There is nothing we can do to change racists that we are not already doing: preaching the Gospel.
Unless you think revival is coming across the land, otherwise the white community of non-racists have little power in changing either group: the black community or white racists.
There are already laws on the books that condemn discrimination in vital areas like work, housing, medical care and so forth.
The racists give a rat’s tail about what we think. We should continue to vocally deplore them for their bigotry, but it won’t change them.

How many black people have been shot by the police this year?
Some and some unjustly.
But…
In Chicago ALONE 277 blacks were killed in 2016, mostly by other blacks. That averages over 1 a day. over 40 a month. The two recent killings of black motorists weren’t done by white police officers.
Those people’s lives matter. Or they should to us all. But BLM is not speaking out against those crimes.

Racism is evil and rightly should be opposed. But the black community has greater problems than extra traffic stops by the police. Maybe because of the great propensity of hard crime perpetrated by blacks actually leads to more traffic stops. And such stops hopefully will lead to getting criminals and killers off the streets, SAVING black lives.

Our politicians and our media have agendas, as well as BLM. And truth isn’t always in the forefront of those agendas.

I hate to be the one to break it to you Mike, but the “black community” does not start and end in Chicago. Chicago has a problem. There are thousands of African American people in Chicago who are aware of that problem and working on it. So thank you for acknowledging it and asking for people to work on it. Now that your single city problem has been identified, can we have a conversation about the overall relationship between African Americans and the police and white people in the US? Can we do so by acknowledging that we DO have a problem and some of it has to do with policing practices? Is that ok with you? Or are you only comfortable building strawmen based on the situation in one city in one state in the US. How about we discuss this stat- an unarmed black offender is JUST as likely to be shot by the police as an ARMED white offender. Does that seem problematic to you? How about we discuss the disproportional number of traffic stops of African Americans compared to the population at large. Not stops for speeding, or running a stop sign, or a busted taillight, but for “suspicion.” Can we talk about that? Or, how about we discuss how when a controversial police shooting occurs the immediate narrative, if the person shot is back, is their past criminal record (if they have one) and the picture chosen to depict them is always one that paints them in a negative light- compared to white perpetrators. Can we talk about that? Then can we talk about the sentencing double standard for similar crimes. Compare the two cases of rape from Vanderbilt and Stanford. The Vandy offender- a black man- gets fifteen years (deservedly so)- the white offender six months. Same crime- almost down to the letter- vastly different sentences. And that’s just one example. Can we talk about that? The black community who you want to have an “internal conversation” about these issues has been talking about them for decades. Guess whose help they need to make changes in all the issues I have pointed out- the majority culture- white people. Know why? Because when you are the majority you need to be a part of the conversation so that an oppressed minority can be protected. Your voice is needed on the side of justice. So can… Read more »

Absjourney, Chicago is the worst, but not the only. And I have a couple of LEO friends, white guys, who have many close African American friends. They have described what it’s like to get calls to go into certain areas in the STL area. These are war zones almost 100% African American. These men, who have great relationships with African Americans, well you bet they are quicker to draw their weapons on African Americans. And you bet every once in a while an innocent Af. Am. is deemed suspicious being in the area of a shooting and somewhat matching a description. So what!

How about you go and tell them how to police in a better, more com passionate way and to keep that sidearm holstered. Better yet, how about you become a LEO in those neighborhoods or in the S side of Chicago and demonstrate how this is supposed to be done. I hear departments are having recruitment difficulties.

Dave, there is a difference between saying “It’s a black issue ONLY” and calling for certain communities to take a more aggressive stand against the crime taking place in their communities. When law enforcement agencies are DESPERATE for communities help in getting the violent criminal elements off the street, and the public DOES NOT HELP, that says a lot about that community.

Further, I would argue that when the BLM crowd lays the entire blame for their situation on “white privleage”, white supremacy, racist white cops, ect, that is just as wrong as someone who says inner city crime is a “black problem only”. There are substantial numbers of people who genuinely believe that a “black” person cannot be racist. Just as there are substantial numbers of people who duplicity say “I don’t condone violence, but what do the cops expect will happen to them when they treat black people so badly?” As long as these types of people are the controlling voices within the BLM crowd, there can be no rational sit-down discussion with them. Their hate has blinded them and nothing short of Jesus working in their lives will change that.

absonjourney,

In regards to “Driving While Black”:

There is not a lot positive I can say about my ex-stepfather ex-cop. But there is one thing that he mentioned to me when I went on a ride-along with him that has stuck with me.

He said to the effect, “Tell me how I am suppose to tell a person’s race when it is at night, I clock a car going 15 over the speed limit, they are coming towards me with their lights on?”

You see he was a part of a department whose city was 95+% white. It was a small private community on a lake here in Missouri. However the state was taking them to task because of their disproportional white-black pull over and arrest rate. You see as part of this cities jurisdiction was a state highway. A state highway which people of other “races” drove quite regularly. A state highway which was known as a drug running route for the area, one which the criminal element from the regional “major city” used because it was “out of the way” and not one of the major interstates in the area. So this department had one of the worst population/arrest racial ratios in the state.

But as the majority of the traffic stops happened at night, one has to wonder how the officers “targeted” people because of their color.

On another “Driving while black” point, I have heard of (and know personally) “white” people who were pulled over by cops for being the wrong color in a neighborhood. Apparently, the only time “white” people entered that neighborhood was to buy drugs or get prostitutes. I assume that you would condemn this action too right?

@absonjouney – you wrote: “How about we discuss this stat- an unarmed black offender is JUST as likely to be shot by the police as an ARMED white offender. Does that seem problematic to you?”

This is apparently from a study you cited in another thread. This study is of dubious quality. It starts with an inadequate data set, resorts to suspect modeling, and fails to take into account the ethnicity of the shooting officer, whether or not the ‘victim’ was compliant or not, and if drugs/alcohol were involved.

But I doubt those people will sit down and have a reasonable fact based discussion either. There is about 2000 people who work at the postal distribution center with me and my guess is that more than half are black. They and I have no problems with each other, and many count each other with me as brothers and sisters in the Lord. They know I am not racist. What others call me is what it is,

Completely agree Dave.

It seems to me that anyone insisting that all or most of the fault/responsibility to solve the tension rests with one group or the other risks reducing and oversimplifying these very complex issues.

I believe members of Black Lives Matters is made up of different ethnicities. White, black and whoever else joins them. Like Dave has said, I think they have gone extremes, but speaking for myself, I understand why the organization was started.

There is also so much misinformation out there by non- reputable sources and I am admittedly only reading the more reputable established news services.

Why is it, that at nearly every “peaceful” BLM protest, there are people throwing rocks and molotov cocktails at police? And why is it that when the police respond to those attacks, THEY the police, are the ones vilified? And why is it that “peaceful” BLM crowd does nothing to stop these violent agitators from disrupting their “peaceful” protests?

Further why does the BLM movement not condemn those WITHIN the movement who are saying, “I condemn violence, but what do cops expect will happen when they kill black people?!” aka they are saying cops deserve it. Yes that is exactly what they mean when they say things like that. And this is not some nut fringe BLM supporter saying things like this but leaders, celebrities, and people of significance within the BLM movement.

And you wonder why people are resistant to anything the BLM says?

Keep stereotyping SV

BLM rally in OKC last week. No violence. People hugging police and protestors and police praying together. Affirmations of good job given by both sides.

I was in Chicago this last week and witnessed another BLM protest on Monday. Once again no violence. Police and protestors working together.

You can keep painting with a broad brush based on right wing media and reality will keep poking holes in your assumptions.

Maybe you should go to a BLM protest and see for yourself.

Police and BLM working together on a march…You mean like in Dallas? Gee what happened there? Oh thats right, now i remember! And for every heartfelt offer of prayer and sympathy from the BLM crowd to the Dallas PD, there were an equal number of people saying, “What do the police expect would happen when they are killing us in the streets!?”

As far as Chicago, maybe instead of the BLM working with police on a march, they can work with Police in getting the violent criminals off the streets. You know, actually helping police respond to crime. None of this “snitches get stitches” garbage but complete and total support for the police, the vast majority of whom are NOT racists and who DO want to protect the black communities.

Perhaps, the one with a broad brush is not myself, but rather you. What news organizations to you listen to? CNN? MSNBC? Huffpo? You really think they are not biased? You really think they do not only show one side of events?

“That is simply not true David B. They are not racist and as far as I know they had nothing to do with any of the tragic, horrendous, police shootings.”

Debbie, Just as are many White people racists, so are there many Black people racists. And yes, many of them identify with the BLM movement, not all but many are. Common sense needs to come into play here. It is not rational to think that there are many who identify with BLM are anything but racists. It is also not rational to say that all who identify with BLM are racists.

If we, of the household of faith, do not get a hold on this issue, both Black and White, and speak honestly with each other, how and why will we even begin to think those outside the faith will change or begin to interact in a proper and honest manner to resolve this growing divide in our nation?

BTW absonjourney (and David M and Debbie and whoever else), it is not just myself or others on this thread that think BLM is fully or is a borderline racist movement. Men like Sheriff David Clark of Milwaukee think so too. I wonder if you folks would call him borderline racist, or biased against the black community, or falling into stereotypes, or consider him a “non-reputable” source?

SV you are determined to only see what you want to see, no matter what is presented to the contrary. That’s your right as an American. You are entitled to your own beliefs. You are not entitled to your own facts. I have presented first hand accounts that dispute your facts. Now all you have to fall back on is your rhetoric. You are welcome to it. All it proves is that you are part of the problem not the solution and you are as biased and short sighted as the people who you are criticizing.

When you are ready for a discussion about facts and not biases hit me up. I will be happy to have that discussion with you. Until then, there’s no reason to keep hitting my head up against a brick wall.

I will leave you with a video from my church this morning. Fast forward to about the thirty minute mark and watch the discussion and interaction- if you have the courage to face the truth and not just stay in your own world.

https://youtu.be/RCJcMXdM2FU

absonjourney, is Sheriff David Clark of Milwaukee county Wisconsin part of the problem too? He is quite direct in that he views the BLM, in its entirety, as a racist hate filled terrorist organization. I want a honest answer on what you think about someone like Sheriff Clark, and his views on BLM. I genuinely want to know.

BTW…your facts destroyed about a two mile section of Ferguson Missouri which is just minutes from where I grew up and was raised. Your facts never condemned that violence. And your facts continue to put forward and regurgitate the LIE that caused that violence in the first place.

Abson, (-:
Here is the problem. Racial profiling, by the police, is a natural byproduct of experience. If they are more likely [or even think it more likely] that deadly force is to be used in a greater number of cases when confronting a black suspect than any other skin tone, the more than likely deadly force comes into the situation quicker. Thats not a racial thing, for the last two black men shot by the cops [in the news] were not shot by caucasians.
Rather than altering my thought process, it supports it. Why are black men viewed as such dangerous threats by police officers of all stripes? Because they have earned that by their actions.

Thanks for being honest and revealing yourself by your last comment. All black men are to be judged by the actions of some? I thought you believed in innocent until proven guilty. Shouldn’t the officer go into each situation with that mindset?

By your logic you have just proved the premise that you accuse BLM of. Because some cops are bad, they all should be viewed as bad.

Thanks for your honesty. You have just revealed the depths of your heart.

Abson,
You misunderstood.
When a community allows and propagates an extraordinary amount of vicious and murderous young men within its ranks, those outside of that community seek to protect themselves from such violence. Who outside of their community could look at a lineup of 7 young black men and pick out the two who were violent? Could you, just by sight?
So when a greater than usual pct. of men from the black community engage in violence and murder, they earn for their community and for their brothers f that community a bad reputation.
If 66% of the unlawful shootings in Chicago were done by police, wouldn’t that police force earn a bad reputation? Of course. But that doesn’t mean everyone is a murderer or unlawful shooter.
Now this subject is emotional and fraught with pitfalls, so I encourage you to leave personal attacks out of it. Instead, you could have asked, How does your statement not reflect exactly what BLM is fighting against?
The truth is, Abson, that BLM is not fighting for the many more dead blacks shot by their own people. But I think you agree with me that those lives matter. Yet BLM is ignoring their deaths. Thus their agenda is political not humanitarian. It is a struggle for power and influence, not to promote the health of the black community.

You didn’t Dave but large numbers of the BLM crowd ARE blaming all problems on “whitey”.

“Are we now trying to deny that”

I’m not. I’ve acknowledged it.

I pray America never returns to legal and institutionalized negative discrimination based on skin color, and I will resist and fight against if she does.

In fact I oppose discrimination the favors people on the basis of skin color, too,

I hate skin color descrimnation. Can’t solve discrimination by discriminating in another direction.

When black communities continually reject the resources provided by law enforcement agencies to get rid of the criminal element within their cities, this despite decades of community orientated focus of those law enforcement agencies, they no longer can blame “White America” for the state of their communities. When black communities have been voting one particular party in local, state, and national levels for the past 100+ years; a party which over the past 100 years has exercised near universal control politically over their cities, and held significant periods of control in their states and nationalities; and when people in these communities those who leave this party and join the “other” major political party race traitors and “Uncle Toms”, they can no longer blame “White America” for their problems. It should also be noted that this political party which commands the black communities support, is the last party to have a former KKK member to be not only apart of their leadership, but was so until his death in 2010. It should be noted that the party which has controlled the black communities votes for over 100 years is the same party that was largely OPPOSED to the Civil Rights Acts of the 50’s-70’s, and it was the opposition party, a party which is demonized by the Black community, that was most vocal in support of the Civil Rights Acts. And yet we want to blame “White America”? In 1979, before I was born, my mom in a rough stretch, tried to get assistance from several US government operated job assistance programs. She was turned away because she was white. I do suppose I should be thankful, for if she had received assistance than her life may have changed and I would never have been born. But still, there are cases (more than most people would think) where so called “white privilege” is not only nonexistent, but reversed. I believe strongly in what Dr Martin Luther King said in his most famous speech. I believe strongly in judging a person by the content of their character, judging by their actions, and not by or because of their skin. It seems fairly clear that significant portions of the BLM crowd has begun to reject this dream, and violate it on a day to day basis. When BLM crowds get away with chanting “Pigs (cops) in a blanket (body bag), fry (kill) them… Read more »

Debbie,
It is sad that there are racists in the police force. It is sad that there are racists in every walk of life. And it is sad that young black men in cities like Naperville get hassled by racists. What do you suggest be done to stop it?

Debbie,
I don’t think that what was done in St. Louis or what we say on this blog will change what that policeman in Naperville or most other racists. We can hope but most racists aren’t listening to us, or to any other anti-racist talk.
Second, the problems the black community has go far beyond the hassle they get from racists. And the despicable murders of young black men by racists pale in number compared to the amount they inflict on each other. But BLM ignores those black lives because their deaths do not further the political agenda.
Racism is wrong. That people are mistreated because of it is despicable. That people are killed because of it is horrendous. But what many see is a community that focuses on that and is ignoring a greater peril to themselves. And when the cry goes out that the problems the community faces is all or mostly due to racism, observers see it for what it is: a deflection away from their worst problems.

So Mike, your question to me was a baiting question? Seriously? I would refer you to Dave Millers answers otherwise discussion with you is futile.

Mike: Something you said has bugged me and feel the need to respond to this. You say you don’t think that standing against racism, or what was done in St. Louis will do anything. You are wrong. Very wrong. It is definitely the way we should have responded during the Civil Rights Movement and afterward yet didn’t. And it’s the right thing to do. It will make a difference although you may see it more in hindsight in history than now. It does make a difference. To no do so would be something I in all good conscience could never do.

Debbie,
It wasn’t baiting. i was hoping you actually had a concrete idea that would aid the issue. Does Dave Miller have a concrete answer? Or is the only suggestion that we just keep saying we should talk more while people are dying?
And how sour talking going to help the black people keep from being killed at a rate of 40 a month in Chicago alone? Most killed by members of their own community?

REAL solutions start with the people who have the problems and the first step is to acknowledge the problem as one’s own and not blame all one’s problems on racism.

As a community, as my community, we acknowledge that there are racists among us, and we condemn their hate and we condemn their hateful actions. And we voted to pass laws and rules that started and continued to give blacks what they always should have had: the right to vote, the right for fair treatment, and we acknowledged as a community that they were no different than we were except for skin pigment, which in essence is not a reason at all to divide over.

Racism isn’t going to away. Some people seek to blame others for their sins and also seek to take out the hatred they have for themselves on convenient targets. The Gospel is the only solution. And that only individual by individual.

Mike: Yes it was baiting because your answer shows all you want to do is rant how it is not about racism and I disagree strongly Mike. It is racism. And you are completely off the grid in your answer.

It seems to me that is the problem Mike, denying. Or just saying the Gospel is the answer. No Mike, living the Gospel is the answer. Living the Good Samaritan, living how Christ treated the woman at the well and others of her race.

Just saying the Gospel is the answer is a reason for you not to see that to too many whites, black lives have not mattered. And still don’t.

You keep saying racism won’t go away. Yes it will if we stand against it. Westboro for example is fading into the Sunset because people stood strong against them. You hardly hear about them anymore, if you do it’s not the powerful force it used to be.

The KKK as a group faded when Morris Dees bankrupted them in a lawsuit. People then stood strong against them. They may not wear hoods now or be a organization, but the idea of the KKK is raising it’s ugly head again.

Black Lives Matter has nothing to do with police being killed to my knowledge. They raised awareness about something real and unfortunately extremists are murdering police. We need to stand strong against this too. I am very pro-police, but even black police are saying it is difficult to be both police and black. We need to listen. We need to be proactive.

It seems to me you all are saying no one should have raised the issue when these wrongful deaths of Michael Brown, Treyvon Martin, etc and these last deaths occurred. You are blaming those who raised these issues loudly in media as the problem. That is just ridiculous.

Debbie stop right there because if you are going to continue to use Michael Brown as an example of “wrongful death” at the hands of police, I will call you out on it every single time. The “hands up, don’t shoot” has been proven to be a lie by the evidence. Brown was proven to have committed a strong-armed robbery just minutes before the shooting, which is why the officer stopped him in the first place. There WAS a physical altercation between Brown and the officer while the officer was still in the squad car, and there WAS physical evidence showing that Brown DID put his hand on the officers weapon. Further the evidence DOES show that Brown was charging the officer when he was shot. The BLM movement’s use of this case has been PROVEN to be false, and so why you are continuing to believe it is beyond me. One could argue that it is YOU who are coming on here for the sole purpose of “ranting”. BTW it is NOT just Dallas and Baton Rouge where BLM supporters have been attacking law enforcement. It is Baldwin, Mo where a sub-human piece of garbage shot an officer in the back of the neck paralyzing him. It is the shootings in Bristol, Tennessee where a black man who was “troubled by all the police shootings” shot and killed one person, and wounded 3 others (including a police officer). It is the 2014 murder of two NYPD police officers by a thug who was “Upset about the deaths of Brown and Garner”. It is the Daytona Police car being torched in the early morning hours of the 17th. It is the Kentucky State Patrol officer murdered in September 2015 by a man who actually attended Michael Brown’s funeral. It is Jefferey Williams, friend of Dorian Wilson (the friend and “witness” with Brown when he was shot) who attacked and shot several officers including one in the face. It is about BLM rallies where the “peaceful protesters” are chanting things like “Pigs in a blanket, fry them like bacon!” and “What do we want? Dead Cops! When to we want them? NOW!” Even tonight as I am typing this, here in Kansas City Mo, there is a man in a standoff with police at the home of the most recent murdering thug Gavin Long, who is holding a gun and refusing… Read more »

Debbie, questions and thoughts;

“living how Christ treated the woman at the well and others of her race.”

Do you think Jesus told her of the Living Water because of her ethnicity? Do you think her ethnicity was relevant at all other than to demonstrate, again, that the Living Water is for all of humanity? That all who believe – no matter ethnicity/nationality – will be saved?

“The good samariatan”

Doesn’t this parable demonstrate the oneness of humanity in that in answer to the question posed to him “who is my neighbor” Jesus went on to demonstrate everyone without preference?

Don’t the woman at the well and the parable of the good Samaritan demonstrate a oneness of humanity rather then divisions of humanity for special treatment (either negative or positive preference/discrimination)?

I agree. Its a sad commentary though….if we as the people of God cannot communicate on these issues without retreating to corners and assuming the worst in others than there is no wonder that the world does it too….

I readily admit I am sometimes guilty of this as well – its so easy to assume the worst when you disagree with someone. I’m still a work in progress.

“*One does not have to universally embrace all the rhetoric that is spoken to be empathetic and agree that black lives matter.*”

I absolutely agree. As I said, I’m no fan of BLM, but I don’t think there’s much doubt that a lot of the sentiment on here suggests that blacks would be fine if only they were good like the whites.

Bill,
When I read the comments, I don’t see any of that idea: that blacks would be fine if they were good like whites. Goodness has nothing to do with it. The black community was mistreated and it has led to many social problems. Problems manifest themselves in various ways, of which criminal activity is just one. If whites are good why is this country spiraling down the toilet? Why are a lot of predominantly and historically white churches and denominations embracing infanticide and sexual sin?
The difference sir is that the blacks for GOOD and for BAD are closer knitted as a community than caucasians usually are. Thus the problems that affect some in their community are more likely to affect the whole community. And also to spill over into others in that community. And because of their closeness, the solutions almost always have to come from within. That closeness is a result of the persecution they endured.
Now other ethnicities like Italians or Germans or others were or still are close knit communities but the persecution they suffered [at least the European immigrants] was not country-wide nor as harsh nor as lasting as the black community. Thus in many ways those people assimilated into society [and it helped that they were white]. It also helped that they came to America free and not in bondage.
So its not about being good and bad or one better than the other. It is about the reality on the ground and recognizing where the problems lie and seeking solutions for them.And it is my contention that because of their closeness, the solutions for the black community for their most grievous problems must come from with in that community.
And that we as outsiders must continue to condemn those of our community that discriminate and commit hateful acts toward the black community as well as any other marginalized group.
And that duty should be done by us, especially as Christians, seeing how the trend looks like that soon, and before we know it, we will be a marginalized group.
But our condemnation of racism will not stop racism. The church has condemned sin from the get go, and look – sin increases all around us and in us.

Bill,

“… but I don’t think there’s much doubt that a lot of the sentiment on here suggests that blacks would be fine if only they were good like the whites.”

I don’t know who you’re referring to with that last comment – but I know it’s not true of me in any shape fashion or form.

Dave Miller,

Do you think that maybe a man’s opinion from 150 years ago who certainly knew similar or worse struggles of an ethnic group to which he belonged is not at least worthy of some respect as is that of the words and opinions of men and women of the same ethnic group who live today and face some of the same struggles?

Frederick Douglas is a respected figure in American history who influenced many people of more than one ethnic background. It is my opinion that his words are worthy of consideration. That’s just my opinion and I realize my opinion is definitely not a final word on the issues before us as a people living in this nation or as brothers and sisters whose citizenship is not of this world, but I do think and grieve over what I see happening just as all of you. Therefore, I am compelled to ask the question.

,,,and none of our opinions will authoritatively end our discussions today. But again here is some more of mine… Fredrick Douglass, by the way, is no slouch when it comes to this topic. He lived the horrors we are talking about. He was perhaps what we might call the first civil rights leader – a predecessor to MLK. Martin Luther King – a more present day man – called for judgment completely apart from the color of skin as well. These men called upon the better consciences of fellow human beings and also argued that if we as Americans looked upon the greatness of America, the exceptionalism of the American Spirit and to her founding we would find no justification for mistreatment of fellow Americans – they was American leaders – leaders with faults as we all have – but American leaders none the less. Neither of these men wanted special treatment, or pity, or even empathy (although we should strive to be empathetic of their perceptions as that coupled with facts will more likely lead us to solutions) – they wanted what American was founded on – the idea that God granted them by virtue of their humanity – life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Contrast with the “leaders” of the BLM movement – or Jesse, or Al, or so many of the other “leaders” of today’s movements. They are not seeking equality, they are not seeking a better America, they are seeking something very different. This is why I reject them, and what they say – they are about elevating themselves and having fame and frankly causing trouble. I reject them. I reject maltreatment of my fellow human beings. I reject improper and inappropriate profiling. I reject police over reach (which certainly happens). I repudiate racism (in its various forms). Even though I reject these things, I fully embrace the inherent value of human life (from conception to natural death for all). I embrace equal justice under the law and I emphatically believe these are to be equally applied to all without preference. I support police officers as a general rule, but when it is demonstrated by facts that they have behaved badly and/or outside of their training or just plain evilly (as I readily admit does happen) I desire to see them strongly punished. We as a society grant them enormous responsibility and with that comes… Read more »

“There is another class of coloured people who make a business of keeping the troubles, the wrongs and the hardships of the Negro race before the public. Having learned that they are able to make a living out of their troubles, they have grown into the settled habit of advertising their wrongs – partly because they want sympathy and partly because it pays. Some of these people do not want the Negro to lose his grievances, because they do not want to lose their jobs.”
-Booker T. Washington

Dave Miller, “It is not our job to “fix the blacks” but to look at ourselves and see what we are doing that we can do better. People can pass that off as pointless emoting but it’s time we looked at what WE can fix and stop trying to blame blacks for all the problems or look to fantasies like Si many conservatives have done.” Who has done that in this discussion – passed off looking at what we can do to fix ourselves and do better as pointless emoting? In fact I have seen little of that in this thread and lots of – – if you reject the BLM movement you are not seeking to empathize and basically do not care to see things improve – – of course all the while the ones saying that unilaterally reject and condemn “all lives matter” so I guess what is fair for the goose is not fair for the gander. Yes, some conservatives have used the salvo that liberals *only* emote and do not think….and liberals have used the salvo that conservatives do not care about people.. Both of these salvos are actually pretty simplistic approaches to the others reasoning for the positions they hold and their use is usually and primarily to elevate ones own opinion over that of others by setting them at a disadvantage from the get-go of the discussion. I.e. “Liberals don’t think – I do, so I am better” and “Conservatives don’t care – I do so I am better”. Neither is productive. Plus I am not sure anyone posting here in this current discussion is a liberal – unless you let ole’ jess back in…most of us are likely someplace between center and further right, in fact. Why can’t we, here on this forum all start from the place of commonality. We all oppose racism. We all want a more just society. We all want good to triumph over evil. We all want equality. We all affirm the intrinsic value of all human life. I actually think differing opinions that each come from a place of goodwill can effectively balance each other and we can see great and meaningful impact IF we do not eat each other up in the process. I think in discussing these issues we should heed some wise counsel from yesteryear: “An 80% friend is not necessarily a 20% enemy”… Read more »

Dave Miller,
Since I am at present the only ‘mike’ that is posting, I do believe that you think that I am saying that I am blaming something on race baiters. And you think I am absolving all whites.
It is hard for me to see how you come to those conclusions.

Here is who I blame: [and don’t blame]

I blame whoever the officers are who shot and killed law abiding citizens or suspects when deadly force was not called for, no matter what racial background they are from.
I blame the shooters of policeman for intentionally aiming thier firearms and pulling the triggers and targeting our police officers, no matter what racial background they are from.
I don’t blame the black community for not wanting to be discriminated against and legally voicing their displeasure and pain through protests.
I don’t blame the BLM, whatever their make up on protesting hate crimes and bigotry.
I do blame the BLM for marching in the streets and chanting, “What do we want?” “Cops dead.” “When do we want it?” “Now”. And other hate filed protests that incite violence indiscriminately and outside of our justice system.
I do blame the black community for allowing their community to have such disenfranchised young men that knock up their women and leave them, commit a plethora of violent crimes, and kill one another, and then rounding up the wagons.
Finally, I blame every person of any ethnicity that discriminates against others based on their skin color. If they are not violating human law [may they be arrested if so], they are violating God’s Law and they will be punished by Him unless He has mercy on them.

One more “finally”:
I blame you for taking potshots at me instead of actually engaging me in conversation.
Any questions?

“This problem of spiritual and moral lag, which constitutes modern man’s chief dilemma, expresses itself in three larger problems which grow out of man’s ethical infantilism. Each of these problems, while appearing to be separate and isolated, is inextricably bound to the other. I refer to racial injustice, poverty, and war. The first problem that I would like to mention is racial injustice. The struggle to eliminate the evil of racial injustice constitutes one of the major struggles of our time. The present upsurge of the Negro people of the United States grows out of a deep and passionate determination to make freedom and equality a reality “here” and “now”. In one sense the civil rights movement in the United States is a special American phenomenon which must be understood in the light of American history and dealt with in terms of the American situation. But on another and more important level, what is happening in the United States today is a relatively small part of a world development. We live in a day, says the philosopher Alfred North Whitehead2,”when civilization is shifting its basic outlook: a major turning point in history where the presuppositions on which society is structured are being analyzed, sharply challenged, and profoundly changed.” What we are seeing now is a freedom explosion, the realization of “an idea whose time has come”, to use Victor Hugo’s phrase3. The deep rumbling of discontent that we hear today is the thunder of disinherited masses, rising from dungeons of oppression to the bright hills of freedom, in one majestic chorus the rising masses singing, in the words of our freedom song, “Ain’t gonna let nobody turn us around.”4 All over the world, like a fever, the freedom movement is spreading in the widest liberation in history. The great masses of people are determined to end the exploitation of their races and land. They are awake and moving toward their goal like a tidal wave. You can hear them rumbling in every village street, on the docks, in the houses, among the students, in the churches, and at political meetings. Historic movement was for several centuries that of the nations and societies of Western Europe out into the rest of the world in “conquest” of various sorts. That period, the era of colonialism, is at an end. East is meeting West. The earth is being redistributed. Yes, we are “shifting… Read more »

Thanks for your prayers, brother!

Here’s some more false narrative for you Les. Can’t wait to see how you and SV spin this one. Maybe he should have laid on his stomach instead of on his back. Smh

http://gawker.com/video-shows-unarmed-black-man-pleading-with-arms-raised-1784004594?utm_medium=sharefromsite&utm_source=Gawker_facebook

Abson,

Spin? Who here has ever said that there are zero cases where a police officer is involved in an unjustified shooting? Answer: no one. Do try to keep up Abson.

Now a few things.

1. As in all these kinds of cases, we should reserve judgment until a full investigation has been completed. See my last post and link for why that is important if you don’t know why we should do that.

2. This may have indeed been unjustified. So far I didn’t see any video of the actual shooting. Maybe that surfaces later.

3. If it was unjustified, the officer should be punished.

4. Was this race related? What was the race of the shooting officer? I may have missed it at your link.

5. Remember the stats several of us have repeated here several times. They do NOT support the false race induced officer shootings that you and others, particularly the BLM and the liberal media want to continue to put forward.

Last, this man’s attorney stated,

“In an interview with WTVJ-TV, Napoleon said he thinks the shooting was accidental, because his client was shot in the leg. He said if the officer thought Kinsey was a threat, he would’ve been shot in the head or chest.

He also said he thinks police may have been on edge after recent ambush attacks on officers in Dallas and Baton Rouge.

“I can’t say that it did in this case specifically, but it leads you to wonder that had those things not happened, had the police not been ambushed in those parts and had they not been on heightened alert, would they have come out with assault rifles and accidentally, I don’t know if it was intentional or accidental, shot an individual who’s laying on the ground with his hands up,” Napoleon said. “He was on the ground, he was laying on the ground with his hands up and he got shot in the leg.””

And thankfully the man is alive and will recover.

Spin? I don’t know about spin, but how about this.

While I recognize that the story is on other media outlets, the fact that you absonjourney will link to gawker of all places tells me a lot about you. If I am not mistaken you recently made a snarky quip against me about “right wing news sources”. Seeing now that you consult and consider gawker a legitimate source of news, tells me all I need too about you I should need to know if we are going to discuss news and political topics.

As far as the story itself, as Les has already pointed out, how about we wait for facts to be presented first, before we make condemnations one way or the other. You know facts? Those pesky little things required for conviction under a court of law? But you don’t want a conviction under a court of law do you? It’s not the nature of the evidence, but the seriousness of the charge that matters to you. In your eyes this cop, like all cops are guilty, and who cares about facts? Who cares about due process?

The Michael Brown case clearly demonstrates the need to wait on facts as ALL evidence, including multiple witness statements show that Brown was assaulting the officer, attempting to get his weapon, and finally CHARGING the officer when he was shot. Hands up don’t shoot was a clear lie. Those are facts.

The Baltimore case has facts also, enough that 3 of the 6 officers have been acquitted now, and a 4th had a mistrial. Facts, in a court of law, are showing that these officers did nothing wrong. Those are facts.

Wait for the facts, that is what we are saying, for which you label it as “spin”? Well if facts are spin, then baby, just spin me right round! Like a record baby!

Eye opening is not the invective I would use – though I appreciate your irenic spirit brother.

Rob

Pastor Moose, I do not know.

My understanding is that at least the Mohler comment was a tweat. The others could also be as well. So at least the Mohler tweat is fully in context.

Rob

Abson, are you the one who cited Gawker? Let me see…yep. Hmmm, from Wiki:

“Gawker is an American blog founded by Nick Denton and Elizabeth Spiers and based in New York City, focusing on celebrities and the media industry.[2] The blog promotes itself as “the source for daily Manhattan media news and gossip”. According to third-party web analytics provider SimilarWeb, the site has over 23 million visits per month as of 2015.[3] Founded in 2003, Gawker is the flagship blog for Denton’s Gawker Media. Gawker Media also manages other blogs such as Jezebel, Deadspin, and Kotaku.

The site’s editor-in-chief has been Alex Pareene since October 2015.

Gawker has come under scrutiny for posting videos, communications and other content that violated copyrights or the privacy of its owners, or was illegally obtained. On June 10, 2016, Gawker announced it would be filing for bankruptcy as a direct result of the monetary judgement against the company related to the Hulk Hogan sex tape lawsuit.[4]”

Your implication about posting a testimony from a Dallas LEO which happened to be on P&P was funny enough. But add in that you cited Gawker. Well. We are in double hilarious range.

abson, if you’re still around these parts, you want to retract tab Gawker video as another example of race based officer shootings? According to a news story, we now know is this was not a case of a white LEO involved in a race motivated shooting as has been alleged right out of the gate by numerous other people I know. In fact, this was a Latino officer trying to save an African American man by trying to shoot a white man. Oh th irony.

See why you guys need to wait until the facts are out?

Yes – there is much “pandering” going on. Decency demands recantation. Have these leaders ever gone back and cleared the record after shooting from the hip and then finding out they were ahead of the truth? Did Dr. Moore ever revisit Officer Wilson and Ferguson? I don’t recall that he did. In fact I don’t recall that this blog ever revisited it ever after the truth came out. The Angels cried indeed.

Rob

Rob, agreed there were several authors and commenters on this form who actively pushed the Ferguson narrative that was so completely and thoroughly proven wrong – Worse than that they not only pushed that narrative very very hard they also have yet to come back and offer any apologies or clarifications after accusing officer Wilson of savage murder (including accusations of his shooting Michael Brown from a great distance and shooting him in the back) and I consider that to be a great injustice – Christians and pastors so vocally impugning a police officer prior to evidence repeating narratives and grossly false ones – and never a one has sought to rectify that.

I say if are going to come for justice – let’s bring justice to Officer Wilson as publicly on this forum as the false and scurrilous accusations were made against him.

Agreed Tarheel. The Lord knows the injustice done to Officer Wilson and will settle the score on all who did him injustice. Let us pray His servants will no longer harden their hearts like Pharaoh of old and seek peace with the Truth and say that they were wrong about it all. It may be “old news” but it is an infectious sore that will turn unless it is resolved = here and elsewhere.

Rob

Hey, hey, hey, let’s leave ice cream out of this.

🙂

I like Carmel Turtle Cheesecake, but I’m also partial to Praline Pecan.

Yes Rob, what a racist applauds means it is racist in my opinion. David Duke is now running for the Senate and took parts of Donald Trump’s speech to make his candidacy speech. So yeah.

Debbie,
“Yes Rob, what a racist applauds means it is racist in my opinion.”

Boy I am so happy that it’s just your opinion. At least your declarations are not widely held, so there’s that.

So Ms. Debbie = if a racist agrees with you and applauds you at any moment that makes you a racist. Good – glad we cleared that up.

Rob

It would at least make me reexamine my view. If a racist applauds anything I say I’ve said something wrong, or he/she thinks his/her views align with Christianity. Either way I would have pause.

So if you say that the sky is blue and the racist applauds then that will give you pause. You are becoming clearer by the moment. My purpose is not to demean you here Debbie. Maybe I am hoping that you would think about it and stop doubling down.

Rpb

Les: If my declarations were widely held, Trump wouldn’t have been on the Republican ticket. Not even near. But he is. So my declarations not being widely held, while sad, is not of concern to me.

As a Christian I don’t feel I could hold any other view.