Doesn’t really need an explanation. The numbers of baptisms by churches affiliated with the SBC is a decent measure of what’s going on in evangelism in our churches and the number of dunks is in a long term, persistent, consistent slide downward. The last reporting year, 2018, showed 246,442 baptisms. Reporters who are fond of comparisons harken readers back to the 1940s for such baptism numbers as we see today, lowest since 1944 (“since Roosevelt was president! “since D-Day” “since sunscreen was invented”).
So, J. D. Greear explains why baptisms are down and in his view “the primary problems are spiritual.” He lists (a) loss of urgency of the Gospel message and complacency, (b) prayer deficiencies, (c) not enough leaders which points to a lack of discipleship, (d) culture preferences (which I take to mean irrelevant traditions and such), and (e) the use of fads and gimmicks rather than solid Biblical, new testament church principles. I’m condensing JD’s take on this. You can read his article here.
I have no gripe with JD on this. He’s right on every point, I suppose, but leaves out some important things.
Al Mohler looks at the same numbers and sees some things that JD doesn’t: (a) the number-conscious SBC is not immune from societal trends and church membership and attendance has been declining overall. He makes the point that we have been somewhat insulated by being concentrated in the more religious South. (b) “We don’t care as much as we once did…” (c) Our methods are not as effective as they once were, a point he calls “beyond refute” and giving as an example that large crusades are no longer as effective as they once were, (d) a speculation that SBCers don’t really believe lost people go to Hell, and (e) demographics, specifically our anemic birth rate, well below replacement level. I’m one of five children (always thought my family was too large, would have been better if I got more stuff and had less competition). My siblings and I have a total of 11 children. You get the picture. More senior ministry than preschool.
What the baptism figures provide is a chance for all of us to complain and for some to demagogue about the SBC. I sat through numberless laments from denominational employees about how “we’re” just not baptizing as many and the ratios of baptisms to members is rising (“It takes 56 of us to generate one baptism.”). When denominational employees say “we” aren’t doing something, they mean “you” aren’t doing something.
Candidates for SBC offices tout the decline as a campaign point, a bit self-serving I think. One of our two presidential candidates (Mohler) has offered in the past a real solution: Southern Baptist couples should have more babies. That would prove more effective than any new plan or program.
Your humble hacker and plodder blogger has a few suggestions for bringing up baptisms:
- All seminary students, professors and administrators should be required, as a part of their job, to witness to a defined number of people per week on average. Each employee should be required to report on their evangelistic witnessing activity. (for the record, my alma mater, Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary, required this).
- Every associational mission strategist (DOM, AM) should have the same requirement, checked by his association’s Executive Committee. No witnessing, no job. The AMS should also be required as a part of his job to provide evangelistic training to any church that requests it. I’m a little weary of hearing associational directors whine about the state convention not providing evangelism training. You do it brother. You’re right there. You don’t have anything better to do.
- Every state convention ministerial employee should be required to do the same.
- I ratify the current plan “Who’s Your One” offered to churches. It’s not the only workable plan but it beats whining about the baptism numbers.
- I commend the addition to the calendar of “Baptism Sunday.”
- I challenge every Calvinist to find one of the elect, somehow, some way, or get out of the ministry. (Actually, the only data I’ve seen on baptism rates for Calvinistic vs non-Calvininstic ministers and churches show that they are about the same, both pathetic.)
- I’m for any attempt at evangelism, even those that aren’t all that productive: house-to-house, large crusades, small crusades, revivals, relationships, Starbucks and sharing, (wine and witnessing?)…you can be creative.
- Ronnie Floyd has an action point on reaching teens. I’m all for it. What’s the alternative?
- NAMB is doing big motivational events. I’m all for that. What’s the alternative to that?
- Continuing to emphasize ethnic, immigrant churches and programs. They have higher birth rates.
And I’ll go on record as predicting an increased number of baptisms either this reporting year or next.
________________
Addenda:
The first person who says, “Well if churches would just report (only about 3/4 of SBC churches do this) we’d probably have a lot more baptisms, gets a free meringue pie in the schnozz.
Perhaps we as pastors should lead by example and do the work of personal evangelism…and disciple our church members to do personal evangelism?
Broken hearted churches WILL find a way to reach people for Christ. Others will not. So long as the bills are being paid and a sufficient number of potlucks are scheduled most SBCers do not see the need to actually try to PERSONALLY fulfill the Great Commission. SBC churches have done a GREAT job of eliminating evangelistic methods that are no longer that productive, like door to door evangelism, church visitation, bus ministry, revivals, etc. But we forgot to replace them with anything else! Filling Shoeboxes, giving to missions offerings and even going on mission trips somewhere else does not cut it. We need a new emphasis on JERUSALEM evangelism!
I really love this. Simple and convicting.
Leadership and not just say we are “thinking out of the box” but really think out of the box. The church has lost its influence , relevance , real community involvement and acting like Christians in their daily life. We need to get “real” and move into the real needs to see the value of Christian life in this life and work into the fabric of daily life, like the old timey church that gave their members, comfort and when it could fulfilled their needs. How about these actions.
1. Using a combination of SBC financing and with a goal of eventually breaking even start a series of faith based, safe and affordable day care centers for children under 4 or 5 years old. Pay our SBC members a modest salary or use volunteers but ramp up a day care network in SBC churches that offer affordable or at time free day care. Needs a lot of fleshing out but it can be done. If you build it they will come and see our faith at work in real world.
2. Help families in real short time crisis that are members of our church family. This would be short term but we as a body of believers would work in any way we could to support our own which would influence the outside world.
3. Get really involved in political/social issues that people of faith should be involved in and do it in a non partisan way if that is at all possible. Support programs and those who have shown support for faith based (SBC) main issues. Not a moral majority type list of who to vote for, just making community leaders, politicians and government actions Why not, we join the battle for our beliefs and we forfeit the ground and become as have as much influence as the Amish or JW’s. What do I mean
1. abortion , if someone is not against it we are against them using common sense and being politically and culturally realistic. Right now that would be limiting, defunding and as least trying to change the present course. Would we get into “politics’, yes but if a party or person support unlimited abortion we need to take a stand.
2. Family values/ issues etc same as above
Being realistic, being aware of political and culturally aware and sensitive we must be loving , sincere and faithful to our beliefs bear witness to our faith.
It will get too long. This will take real leadership, teaching, leading the way and a realization of our organization that we must be bold and involved in every day life not preaching to the choir (ourselves). We can change our communities , person by person, day by day , brick by brick. Early Christians grew the faith by their faith but also by their Actions, to do the best they could for their fellow Christians with sharing , love and compassion.
Lots of talk and messaging in the SBC about being bold and radical but it is just talk. This is a sea level change. Eventually our community involvement might break even financially but that is not the goal. I really condensed this but offer it as food for thought and to enlarge the discussion.
Come to saving faith so you can get free childcare?
Come to saving faith by joining us in our sociopolitical efforts to change Satan’s kingdom, the world?
Come to saving faith because we can help you with your family issues and temporary crisis?
Doesn’t sound very biblical to me.
How about:
You’re a sinner headed for damnation in Hell because of your sin. But here’s the way you can avoid that. Let me tell you about a Redeemer named Jesus.
I think that might be the better way.
D E. Clemons, I am a layman, it is my understanding that the early first century Christians showed love and concern for each other as well as being true to their belief in Jesus as their Savior. To use my layman term they practiced what they believed and did not water down their message of Jesus bringing everlasting life. They were truly prosecuted , died for their faith and grew their numbers. So do we attract unbelievers to Christ with fear or love. I am not a socialist I am a conservative in politics and nature. I am a realist, day care for instance would be successful and just an extension of VBS which most SBC churches support. Of course day care being it is private church run would include the opportunity to get the children on the path to believing even at young age. I do not disagree with you as a believer but I am trying to get the unsaved in the door to hear the message. I would guess 90 percent of Americans know your thoughts about where sinners are headed but our churches are dying? Love, compassion on the local level grew the church . The Bible Belt poor people made the church the center of their community as it gave them love, hope, fellowship, understanding and made their lives better in this world as they also accepted Christ as their Savior. They needed the church in their community as it met their needs in this world, we must reach the people where they are and remain true to our beliefs. I do not disagree with you or John 3.16, I just want to get the true message out, as do you.
Respectfully, those who come to saving faith because they desire love, hope, and fellowship are not saved. Jesus would call them tares. A desire for those things can’t save anyone.
Those who have love, hope, and fellowship because they are saved from sin by faith in Him are the real deal. Jesus called them wheat. That’s what was going on in the early church you speak of.
Tares get burned. Wheat gets harvested.
I’m all for a churches doing service work. We are called to that. But service cannot be equated with evangelism. I doesn’t work. Churches have been serving to save for generations and the result is shrinking churches where it didn’t work and unregenerate churches where it did. IMHO.
I have pastored a church with a large 2-5 yr old Preschool. It was well established and well thought of in the community. But try as we might, we saw very few families come to our church. Perhaps there is a way to do it. But we could not find it!
We’ve made the same effort by running one of the largest food pantries in our area. Since 2011 we’ve supplied food for 500-600 needy families every week. I’m not taking canned goods, I mean fresh vegetables and meat, better food than I get at home. We once gave out 10,000 lbs of bananas in a single day. We contract with the USDA to give our subsided milk and cheese. We have a three acre commercial site the church obtained to house it all.
The number of people that’s drawn into church could be counted on one hand and most of them didn’t stay because they came for the wrong reason.
You still do it even if only one family comes.
Allen, Our church has a pre school also . Do the majority of the people who use the service attend church , absolutely not. Do the parents see the benefits and love of being a believer from the staff , yes. However , there is a waiting list and if we had the resources we could expand. If we ran it as a “business” we could actually make a profit in a financial sense. However the children are being exposed to Christian love and values as are the parents. Time will tell. Experts in human behavior say your personality and beliefs in many area are formed in the first 5 years. However it is the best we can do now and as you mention the reputation in the community is that the day care is loving, well run and can be trusted because they are Christians. Expand on that with national resources, a good business plan and a mission statement and it might, I say might work to get non believers to at least hear the message or to open their hearts. Private Christian schools from first grade to senior grade have a high percentage of parental involvement in their children’s events and learning that leads to the parents at the very least being exposed to Christianity. Just an idea but we have to be pro active. If you build it , they will come. Crisis centers for families facing problems they cannot handle, providing life skill classes on how to handle finances, to navigate our society for those who are not doing well with an understanding that we want to promote what we believe in a loving, concerned way. We can flesh it out but we must regain relevance, influence and trust in the secular world. Just throwing a concept into the arena.
You mentioned Dr. Mohler stating (b) “we” don’t care as much as we once did…(c) “Our” methods are not as effective…(d)“ SBCers” don’t really believe lost people go to hell. I thought Dr. Mohler was a professed Calvinist yet look at the lead on each “we, “our” and “SBCers” as if we have anything to do with someone else’s salvation or baptism. One must suspend all logic to believe the tenants of Calvinism and these points.
Jimmy,
I’m not sure this is the thread for this discussion. But calvinists do believe we have something to do with other people being saved. We believe God ordained the ends (someone being saved) and the means (someone sharing the gospel with that person). We dont have to suspend all logic, but sometimes I do for fun. 🙂
Not to be argumentative but if God ordained the means and not man how could “our” programs or methods be effective or not? Only Gods would be I would think. I don’t see how we can measure or count who is saved as a number reflective of what man is doing or not doing. Baptisms isn’t even a good measure of salvations. Why all this counting or at least why would we from the Calvinist position? Are we counting what God is up to? Oh and thanks for the response.
Jimmy,
I agree that our programs are only effective when God is working. But God has told us in his Word that his gospel will be effective (Roman’s 1:16). We should have confidence whether Calvinist or not that when we preach or share the gospel people will be converted. I don’t necessarily have confidence in any programs or methods but in God graciously calling people to himself through the gospel.
Whether Calvinist or not, we all want to see of our ministry is effective. If it is not, we want to try to find out why.
Join the discussi
Jimmy,
“..when we preach or share the Gospel people will be converted.”… Pardon me, but don’t you mean the Elect will be converted? (sincere question)
The elect are people too.
Rev. Matt,
Yes, I do mean the elect will be converted. But we don’t know who those people are so we should share the gospel with everyone. As people respond to the gospel and trust in Christ, we believe we are finding people who are elect. That word or phrase “elect” or “the elect” is in the Bible repeatedly. I assume you or I would say the people responding in faith to the gospel are the elect.
Jimmy, something I have always pondered, God has ordained the means, but isn’t it a “freewill “ choice for someone to actually share the good news?
I believe it is. God ordained the means and we make choices to share the gospel. Both are true.
I think Philippians 2:12b-13 gets at what we are talking about. Paul gives a command to do something, but then tells them that God will be working in them both to will and to do that command. “…work out your salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to work for His good pleasure.”
I get it and I humbly agree with your position but I believe there’s one factor we’re overlooking here.
When I came to my tiny, aging church (70 member) two years ago one of the first things I did was look at the church on a Google map to see what was around it. I was really excited to see that large subdivisions and housing developments were all around us and growing like crazy. I thought, what a great opportunity. I went to yard sales, door to door… I pounded the pavement so much you’d have thought I was a Latter Day Saint.
What I found was that 99 percent of the people I talked to already processed saving faith in Christ. I’m not convinced they are saved but they believe they’re saved.
The problem was they don’t see a connection between their salvation and church.
Since they don’t connect salvation with church the don’t go. Since they don’t connect with church their kids don’t connect with church and they don’t go. Therefore, low baptisms.
I think the missing piece of the puzzle here, especiallyin the Southern US, Bible belt, isn’t evangelism as much as it is a lack of value for the church.
Many professing Christians distain the church and others are just apathetic about it.
“I’m saved. I was baptized when I was 8 and I haven’t been back to church since I was 17. Leave me alone.”
I hear it all the time.
I’m all for evangelism, witnessing, testifying…but we’re missing the connection to church.
How do we drive home the connection to church?
I fear our evangelistic efforts are often leading to false conversions. I say that because if they were truly indwelt by the Holy Spirit after professing faith wouldn’t He lead them to church?
The biblical pattern is always believe, be baptized, be added to the church.
Our evangelism seems to end at believe. And I think that’s dangerous as it often results in a false security in a false Christian, a tare.
I answered your comments above as I am incompetent . I do appreciate your reply . That is what we need to do is to exchange ideas and of course pray. We all want to share the good news.
That sounds like an opportunity to discuss discipleship, discuss why they don’t go to church (apathy, didn’t realize the importance, past hurt from the church whether real or perceived), and show an interest in building a relationship and getting to know them (a real one, not superficially to just raise numbers). Find out what is important to them and who they are.
I think the “Leave me alone” is sometimes a pushback to evangelistic efforts that are extra pushy like the talk to them till they agree to hear you our or close the door on you practice, or is reminiscent of experiences they’ve had with JW. Even the faithful Christians I know have recoiled from these approaches.
Kimberly , that is a good observation of what I am trying to convey. Many things to do outreach in the past no longer are effective. There is almost a virtue in todays world to be totally secular and unchurched or even identify as a Christian. A person that is running for office that is secular with not pronounced moral foundation is unquestioned and accepted, who professes a faith is under the microscope, quite a sea level change. Meet people where they are. The first people who followed Christ were called Christians as an insult I have been taught but they outreached and prevailed in the fullness of time. It is hard but we can do it if we want to reach the world as best we can, work like all up to us (it is not) pray like it is all up to God (it is). Food banks are good up to a point but why not invite the people who show up to a sub sandwich and a coke and ask them what is missing in their lives and how can we help. Takes more work, takes more risk, out of my comfort zone but just a bag of food and good bye just gets you some good vibes . Just thoughts. I read your comments below and raise a good point, we all have gifts, not everyone is good at outreach, Bible study, child care , whatever but we all know we all have a gift. Got to shake it up to share the good news.
Recently i got discourage where i was working in the Lord’d field in Uganda because attendance was shrinking and Satan was saying it was my fault. Months went by till i realize that lower attendance was not my job MAKING DISCIPLES is the job the Lord gave me. So i found someone to read the bible everyday with and soon he was convert and now I am meeting him everyday for 20 to 30 minutes. God has done a great work in His life the last 4 months and mine. I have 14 people coming to my house every Saturday for bible study for 1 1/2 hour. Our little church in Uganda started December 1st and we had record high Sunday 35 adults 30 children to the glory of the Lord and my joy is full because i’m doing what God created me to do…Glorify God in the salvation of sinners! Find someone to read the Bible with you today and pray for them and do life with them.
I recalled this one because I misread the first time.
My apologies. As I reread your post I see your evangelism has led to an addition.
Good work and God bless. That’s exactly the kind of evangelism we need. stateside.
In fact, I find your home Bible study an interesting concept. Do you believe it possible that those who are negative about the church in the US could be drawn in by an intermediate step. Faith, to Bible Study, to Church?
I’ve heard some pastors in a conference around here discuss doing a bible study at a sandwich shop that saw some come to faith and then church.
I’ve heard others do a study and dinner at people’s homes. Not sure how to rate the success of this one — the numbers seemed good, but the experience with these folks gave me some cult-like bad feelings, but I think it could work in some settings.
Ive heard of some ladies doing a sort of IF:table thing. Again, I don’t know whether they were successful but it was interesting.
I’ve seen it done badly too. I was invited to one study that was initially supposed to be for outreach but was badly implemented. The people who kept being invited were current members of the church who were well outside of the age range for who people were supposed to being reached, and overall were not naturally good listeners. I don’t know if the organizers were just wanting to invite their friends or not everyone understood the goal of the study, but it unraveled and was entirely unsuccessful.
I understand. I’m not a big believer in every Time, Mike, and Mary teaching. Scripture says let there be few. Our church is very limiting on who can teach Bible Study, Sunday School etc. I think many churches fail in qualifying their teachers.
I was thinking more of church leaders teaching in someone’s home, not the homeowner.
But I am curious about the age range you speak of. Can you clarify that? It sounds like your church is targeting a certain age bracket.
This was the church I went to . They had a good number of every age group except young adults/college age. There were a handful of college age men, and the college age women mostly only came back to town during summer vacation, so it was a bit of a lonely road for the 1 young married college aged woman in our congregation.
So the study was an attempt to meet and reach out to other young women close to her age. But it instead ended up turning into a time to get out of the house for all the moms of young children who were in their 30s and 40s.
But the church now has people in that group which is great.
I guess I can relate to that. My wife and married in college and when we did our social circle changed quickly. Most college singles don’t want to hang out with married couples no matter how close the age. Thanks for explaining.
Yes brother, I believe God is working and we must work by making disciples. Thank you for your encouragement.
My visiting was simple.
1. knock on doors
2. took a layman with me.
3. every Saturday my wife and I (;she taught school) had a date. 10:00 am … breakfast …visited about 3 hrs.
4. contacted Sunday visitors. Tried to make appointment for personal visit. Always attempted to take someone with me.
5. I had a schedule for prayer, study of the word, office hours, and personal visitation.
Never had inflated numbers. Baptize about 12+ for 40 yrs. Does not count church children or those who came during worship services.
It starts and finishes with the Pastor. A Pastor cannot pass the gospel buck to someone else.
Troy
Brother Troy, God bless you for your faithful service. It is often said that the members won’t do more than the pastor does. You set a great example.
Thanks brother for speaking out
I do not say this being flippant or glib, but what if: 1. the doctrines of predestination and limited atonement are correct, and simply God is passing over more than He is saving. or 2. the doctrines of freewill and prevenient grace are correct and people are simply hardening their hearts to the Lord?
Seriously, sometimes we seem to forget it “isn’t all about us” but rather that our job is to get the gospel out, but only Jesus saves.
Sometimes we really truly are not in control, not to blame, or indeed capable of that which only the Holy Spirit can do.
That was exactly my question. I’d love to hear the answer. Thanks Sarah…
I don’t think that’s flippant at all. You may be well right. This is an age of apathy and apostasy toward Christ and the church. Jesus said broad is the path and narrow is the gate. Few will find it, not many. So I think you’re spot on.
I might be criticized for this observation. However, I would rather have lower baptism numbers if that meant that those who were baptized were truly “born again” and going to be discipled by our churches.
For far too long, I would posit that some churches got people wet for the sake of statistics before they were as certain as anyone could be that the individual was actually saved.
As you might imagine, I am not a fan of “repeat after me” salvation prayers” or 25 stanzas of “Just As I Am” because the evangelist just knew there was someone who needs to come forward.
I agree fully, sister. My church would tell you one of my greatest concerns is reaching people who believe they are saved and aren’t.
Quick baptisms and the “Sinner’s Prayer” lead to many false conversions.
On that day many will say Lord, Lord…
Mohler’s suggestion of having more kids is actually the most meaningful solution. Either that or adopt kids. Too many Christians have adopted a largely secular approach to parenthood, which generally includes few to no kids.
When I read the account, in Acts, of the day of Pentecost, which resulted in 3,000 people being saved and baptized, I must ask what they had that we don’t have today. Because, whatever it is, it’s missing now.
That’s what’s producing our problem now.
We’ll, think Peter had an advantage in one respect. I’m convinced all 3000 of those were Jewish God worshippers who were at least I aware of the coming Messiah. Many of them had seen and heard Jesus.
We live in a generation of Gentiles who don’t know God and aren’t looking for a Savior. And they refuse to read the Bible so they can hear what those original believers heard and saw.
Consider that a hundred (or so) people could have heard his sermon … narrow streets, no mic and amplifier … and I conclude that people told people. Excitement and the like. I have personally seen very little excitement among folks who were saved or baptized, at the time of those events.
William, in addition to requesting people make a certain number of visits, shouldn’t we also require them to learn a song? “To all the world for Jesus Sake?”
Couldn’t hurt.
Just wanted to add the old suggestion, go where God is working. When you go serve among people, you get to see God saving people! But then we have to face hard questions. Is our church a good place for newly saved people? What/who will they find there?
I’m not suggesting everyone abandon post – but there are many ways to “go” locally too. After teaching women’s Sunday School for over a decade, God called me to serve in a local ministry for women in need. In this small, volunteer-led interdenominational Christian ministry, lo and behold, women were saved! Sometimes there were more salvations than in local churches. No matter; our churches were supporting this ministry through donations and volunteers, some with budget-line donations. All Kingdom.
New believers need baptism, and that’s the local church! Sometimes it’s hard though. These new believers needed truly welcoming, grace-filled, Spirit-filled, patient, generous churches that didn’t expect conformity. Cowboy churches, and some Pentecostal churches, were often the most welcoming and truly willing to love a new sister-in-Christ with a messy life.
Again, with all due respect, there are, unfortunately, many churches that baptize without seeing any sign of repentance and regeneration. No expectations of obedience to the Lord’s commands.
Our church would be glad to see these ladies at church but slow to baptize them.
I’ve been to the local Cowboy church a few times. I couldn’t tell much difference between their show and the one at the Grand Ol’ Opry.
And those Pentacostals are going to add works to faith when they tell them they have to speak in tongues to be saved.
How do they profess faith at your Ladies’ mission? I hope it isn’t a raised hand after repeating a prayer someone led them in.
How many of you said that prayer for the first time? Glory, 15 got saved today.
It doesn’t work that way.
Thank you for your questions. Are these real salvations? God knows – I don’t know what your church’s criteria are, my Baptist church accepted professions of faith verified by a few conversations. To me, our ladies’ salvations were very evident:
– Small town, so we often had connections with the women and/or their extended families.
– They were in the program due to life disadvantage, life crisis, desire for better skills, or even referred from court. So they needed something and were already humble enough to seek it. The ministry did not offer stuff/things/money.
– Professions of faith: We didn’t call for them, no “alter call.” We just had Bible study – the book of John – love, kindness, serving and walking alongside. Then we’d notice someone change (e.g., sudden thirst for His word, questions, wanting more, attitude change) or in heart crisis (broken heart, realization of sin, great need for Christ). You never knew when this might happen. It might be in class, or during smoke break, or on a field trip. Seemed like the Holy Spirit to me.
– Evidence of repentance: In over a decade of volunteering, I saw lives and whole families change after salvations. The primary evidence was loving Christ and crediting Him for their change. The next was the change in their faces and bearing – literal before-and-after photos. Further evidence included shedding unhealthy relationships and restoring good ones (e.g. parents-child), getting off substances, seeking a church family, getting education, getting and keeping jobs. The ministry tracks graduates and receives testimonies from whomever wants to tell. Many do.
– The ministry is not a church, so it didn’t baptize women. Each church has its own criteria for baptism. What I’m saying is, Pentecostal and cowboy churches seemed best at welcoming and assimilating women into their community of believers. We didn’t track that so it’s just my impression.
Certainly not all women were saved. But my point was, salvations in this small ministry were higher in percentage in even in number than at my church. Most places like this can use support. We can go and/or support where God is at work.
Sounds like a good ministry. I worked in a similar ministry for women in Nashville. No altar calls there either. Those kinds of programs work. Sorry to seem skeptical but I’ve seen so many sketchy women’s ministries lately I’ve become leery. This one appears sound by your description. Keep up the good work.
Thank you. It’s based on Christian Women’s Job Corp, with excellent leadership and local adaptations. I moved, so no longer there. Still wonder about the overall issue of these baby believers “bridging” into healthy local churches. There’s sometimes a disconnect between new believers and churches.
One of our problems today is our baptismal practices of the past. Many people have been baptized who never experienced a conversion experience. In personal witness I find people who take comfort in their “baptism” but who from their lifestyle demonstrate that they have never been saved. I don’t want to be judgmental or legalistic here, but our churches are often filled with leadership who have no real understanding what is means to be redeemed, born again or whatever term you want to use. I have told some that I wish there were a way I could unbaptize some people. Because of a lack of discipleship we have made people comfortable with a pseudo conversion. I believe in evangelism, but I don’t believe that a lot of what we call evangelism is really evangelism.
On the positive side I have found that if I can get a person into a study of the Word that is consistent and not just reading, but studying, their conversion experience becomes a life-changing relationship that is personal and real.
I wish our baptism numbers were higher, but more important than that is that they be authentic experiences with God.
AMEN….And I say again, amen.
Good morning faithful Churches and Christians leaders, each one of pastor has at least one or more spiritual gifts. A pastor, an evangelist, missionary and Christian minister is first know what kind of spiritual gift does he/she has, second he/she to knows how to uses, where to uses and when to uses, and third, he/she is to watch out how its work and how it grow ( John 3:8. 1 Corinthian 12:6-10 ).
And, he/she must not compromise at wrong and right, but to say wrong is wrong and right is right ( Matthew 5:37 ). Because, end time is coming, many Christians leaders and believers were been tempted and failed in money, sex, materials and socials and the Church or Christianity became isolated ( Romans 2:24-25 ). A pastor works is to teach and peach the Word of God rightly, to look over his members their weakness, to trains local members to be disciples and to leads the local church’s members to community into to do outreach helping and giving as they needed. Truly, if we follow these ways and doing out reach ministry, the believers will increase and God kingdom will be establish ever before. I tell theses things upon my out reach ministry experiences.
For example : I have been aware and deal with a small group pastor who has committed adultery with a man’s wife, been fraud married beside his wife, stealing a man’s information and money from bank account, and technically crushed and condemn a man verbally inside and outside of the church ( Matthew 7:15 . Mark 13:6 ). And, a man reported him to local pastors and polices, plus asked him to pay $ 200,000.00 as restitution. Because, the truth offending to pastors and church’s leaders, money and materials are very important the gospel and the lost souls are been forgotten. I am a Christians Ministry Watch member and a former First Baptist Church Avondale Estate in Georgia. God blesses Christianity.
I find it interesting that the Calvinist’s numbers are down, too. Does this mean that God is not choosing as many as He once did…to go to Heaven? Just a thought…:}
The gate has always been narrow and there have always been few who find it. I truly believe the record number of batisms the SBC has known in past decades was due to false conversions, especially among youth.
In someways I think what we’re seeing by way of low baptisms is a correction, not a problem. Lower numbers in baptisms may simply mean that we’re drawing fewer tares into the church.
I don’t consider myself a Calvanist. Though I don’t disregard the Doctrine of Sovereign Election I also don’t deny the free will choice of man either. Call me a fence sitter if you like.
The Calvanist thing is overplayed in the SBC. I’m going to Heaven. Whether I chose Him or He chose me really isn’t as important to me as the fact that I’m saved. Fighting about the logistics of my salvation doesn’t get us anywhere.
Our job is to preach the Gospel. We are saved by hearing the Word and believing the Word we hear. We need to spend more time preaching and hearing and quit all this whining and bickering. I’m tired of the infighting within the SBC. Cal’s vs. non-cals. Women vs. men. Moderates vs. conservatives. The EC vs. ELRC…
The SBC is just a big TV reality show…lots of man-made drama for the world’s entertainment.
Sorry, that’s not directed at you, Bob. I started the process of leading the church I pastor out of the SBC yesterday and I’m still on my soapbox. I don’t think leaving is going to be hard for us. The SBC has made it pretty easy to do.
As one who has traveled to other countries, seen to work of our missionaries, heard them as they shared their hearts sacrificially to reach the lost, I can never bring myself to abandon a mission plan that gives even the smallest church an opportunity to be a part of reaching the world with the gospel. I cannot bring myself to abandon 3700 international missionaries in all areas of the world as well as the NAMB missionaries, etc. . We could never do that on our own. At best we would have a limited ministry in a few places. I love the fact that we can be a part of doing together what none of us could do alone. Some will argue about the overhead. I rejoice in supporting those with whom we cooperate to share the gospel. Please consider the full picture before you abandon such a vital work. I don’t believe that you will find another group with whom we can share to make this happen.
With all respect. I’ve heard that speech before. I once believed in what you’re saying here. But, I believe the bureaucracy has overwhelmed the mission. I’ve prayed and considered and prayed some more…
I’m convinced… And I doubt at this point I’ll reconsider. But I have asked the church to pray, to study, to weigh out… I’m not going to use high pressure methods. If they vote to leave we leave. If they vote to stay I stay with them. We won’t make a firm decision until after the convention meets.
Many of my friends are bivocational pastors. I watch them struggle daily. For those who don’t understand bivocational it means full-time ministry and full-time work at the same time. I watch them suffer, financially. They can’t afford health insurance. Their wives work to support their husbands. It’s brutal for many of them but they love Christ more than they love themselves.
But rather than support those in the trenches here we support those in the trenches abroad. I struggle with that. Those men are doing the work of evangelism as much as any missionary. Where’s their SBC support system? Do they not deserve the crumbs from the Lord’s table?
Now I’m not speaking for myself. My church covers my needs. So don’t think my complaint is self serving .
But when the SBC plans to hire hundreds of new missionaries while leaving their pastors and their families at home without health insurance, I have a problem with that. Can you justify that for me?
I asked my church last night if any pastor or a representative of any church has ever visited them besides me. They said no, and some of them are in their 80’s. I personally never had anyone come to my home in 30 years that was out visiting and representing their church. My friends, I ask you, where is the evangelism in our churches? I think it’s virtually non existent.
I agree with your suggestion that evangelism us strikingly missing in the churches today. The Jehovah’s Witnesses knock on my door but the that’s about it.
But I think most pastors have given up on door to door evangelism. I’ve had better results with what I suppose we’d call street evangelism. I simply the Gospel to people who cross my path on a daily basis. But in this day two men standing on a porch knocking on a stranger’s door are usually not received well. In my area they’re apt to be met with a shotgun.
Paul preached in the Synagogue and the market place. He taught at the School of Tyrannus, at the Areopagus… And he preached at church gatherings in homes. I’m not sure he ever went door to door but that doesn’t mean we can’t. I just prefer the market place, seems to work better for seed planting.
Most churches have replaced evangelism with something they call “outreach.” That generally consists of providing for some physical need but does little for the soul.
Scripture says the Lord gave some to be evangelist and some pastors and teachers.
I’m not sure all pastor teachers are gifted to be evangelist. If fact I see them as separate gifts and separate rolls. Every Christian is called to witness. But the calling and gifting of the true Evangelist seems rare these days
More frightening to me is that many of my 70-80 year old long time members tell me no one has ever taught the Bible the way I’ve taught them, that they’ve learned more in two years than the last 60. Same from the younger members. Friends, I’m not that good a preacher. It scares me. These poor folks must have been exposed to some very poor preachers over the years. If people don’t understand their own salvation how can they explain it to someone else.
For D E Clemons: The SBC is a voluntary association of like-minded churches. So, a Baptist church can vote to associate or disassociate itself from the SBC. Let me mention one caution to you. If your church’s land was purchased and the building built with financial assistance from the Home Mission Board (now North American Mission Board) or the state Baptist convention or the local Baptist association, then there may be a “reversion clause” in your land papers. A reversion clause states that should the church ever cease to be a cooperating SBC church, then the property reverts to the SBC. This is something you’ll need to investigate.
You sound like a Methodist. Our church property was donated and the building was paid for by the church members who, of all things, raised a cotton crop to pay for materials. Some of our old timers still talk about how sore their fingers were.
Its rampant DE