I may have forever lost my chance to get a NAMB appointment this past week and I might have to turn in my Baptist credentials or something. I drank every drop of the contents of the can you see on the right here and I enjoyed doing it (I also took this photo in a Lutheran church so who knows what is happening to me). I am writing a little tongue-in-cheek, although some may take me too seriously to be sure. This little can of water got me thinking this past week. I would like to share some of those thoughts with you.
There is often a great deal of discussion about alcohol on this blog and I am not about to open that can of worms again (if someone tries to derail this comment thread with another alcohol argument I will delete the comments myself, unless Dave beats me to it). Suffice it to say that I cannot find a single verse that says something like “thou shalt not make beer.” I don’t drink beer or any other alcohol for that matter as a point of personal preference and conscience, but I have to hand it to the folks at Anheuser-Busch for the work they do getting drinking water into disaster areas.
I spent four days last week serving as a Disaster Relief Chaplain in flood-ravaged Minot, ND. We were asked to come in by the Red Cross in order to provide some care and calm in the shelters they are currently administering for those who have been displaced by flooding in and around the area. By all accounts, our ministry has been of great benefit already in meeting that need and I am looking forward to going back in again during the coming weeks as I have opportunity (most likely this week as well). During my time there, I saw these cans of water at the shelter. I have heard of them before (notably after Katrina), but unless you are in a disaster area where water is needed desperately you may never see one in person. I have to give props to SBC Disaster Relief as well. Since very early in this disaster we have had folks on the ground offering all kinds of help: water, clothing, personal items, food and so forth. The first trip I made to the area almost four weeks ago was with a mission team to deliver a trailer full of bottled water and other supplies in fact.
After seeing the cans, I was reflecting on the words of Matthew 25, so much so that I preached on that passage this past Sunday. It strikes me that the folks who came up with the idea of doing this at Anheuser-Busch are exactly like those who are mentioned in Matthew 25. When told that they saw the King thirsting and gave Him water to drink, these people are befuddled. They never even realized what they had done. Frankly, it probably doesn’t occur to some of us religious folks just how stunning this passage is until we put it in a context like this.
There are lots of believers who take this kind of thing to heart and heed the words of Jesus, but we have to be completely honest. There are also those who claim to be believers who never give a second thought to passing out some water to those in need or meeting the needs of those around them. And that brings me back to the stunning image that Jesus’ words evoke. I imagine these are the folks who will be completely shocked on that day, when Jesus says well done good and faithful servant to a guy or guys from Anheuser-Busch and tells the “believer in their own mind” that He never knew them.
P.S. Just so you know, the water doesn’t really taste great (it is kind of metallic from the can), but I am pretty sure it is less filling. And the Lutheran church referenced above is housing a few of us SBC disaster relief workers in their facility just north of our church where the command post is located.
“Jeff Musgrave opened and drank an entire can of Busch.” That is what I got out of this.
At least if it didn’t taste great it was less filling!
I should have known that you would publish this while I was away from the house for a while. Of course, I am the one that put it in publish-ready mode. I will try and moderate now so that you don’t tax yourself anymore with my ramblings, which are obviously less filling for some and more filling for others.
“It strikes me that the folks who came up with the idea of doing this at Anheuser-Busch are exactly like those who are mentioned in Matthew 25.” “I imagine these are the folks who will be completely shocked on that day, when Jesus says well done good and faithful servant to a guy or guys from Anheuser-Busch and tells the “believer in their own mind” that He never knew them.” So, Jeff, are you saying that the Busch people are saved and going to Heaven, just because they handed out water to people, who needed water? Is that not a… Read more »
David, When did it become my job to declare people are saved or unsaved? You are reading more into the statement than I intend to be there, do you have some reason to condemn them based on the above statements? I can’t find one. I am not saying that they are trusting Jesus for salvation and I am not saying that their handing out water gets them saved. What I am saying is this: Jesus plainly states that there will be people who call him “Lord” and yet will be told to depart from Him because He never knew them… Read more »
Jeff,
The way you said it sounded like you were saying that Busch people would be told well done…by the Lord. Can you not see that? Now, maybe you wrote it wrong, or maybe you were trying so hard to be clever about Busch people doing more than some Church people, that you said it wrong. But, the way you said it really did sound like you were saying that they were going to Heaven based on giving water to thirsty people.
Now, if that’s not what you meant, then hallelujah….amen…. that’s great.
David,
Out of the various people that have commented thus far, you are the only one who has taken it that way from what I can see. If there is a misunderstanding here, I get the overwhelming impression it came on your end of the conversation.
I certainly believe it is possible that someone from Busch might be told well done just based on Jesus’ words in Matthew 25, which is why I said what I said. Do you have hard evidence that they certainly won’t be?
David: No, Jesus said it, not Jeff. Go read Matthew 25.
Greg,
So, let me get this straight…you are saying that a person is saved by handing out water to people, who are thirsty? Correct?
David
David,
I think what he’s saying is that instead of trolling around a blog pushing the same old awful eisigesis, the people at Anheuser-Busch are using their considerable resources to do what God has commanded Christians to be about doing. Hope this helps.
-Todd
But, according to the quotes I took from the OP, and from the statement of Greg Harvey, it sounds a whole lot like a works salvation thang….does it not?
No one gets saved by doing good works…not even handing out water to thirsty people.
David
David, Sooooo, it sounds like your issue is with the Bible and not Greg. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me, I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.’ Then the righteous will answer him, saying, ‘Lord,… Read more »
David,
Given his body of work and your interaction with him, Do you think that Jeff believes and/or teaches a works based salvation?
I’m going to let Jeff moderate this. But this was meant both as a fun thing and as a devotional post.
Let us comment in the spirit of the blog.
Jeff’s words: There is often a great deal of discussion about alcohol on this blog and I am not about to open that can of worms again (if someone tries to derail this comment thread with another alcohol argument I will delete the comments myself, unless Dave beats me to it).
Note to Jeff: I forgive you. And I thank you too.
Beer companies get good PR out of doing such things as giving out water. I guess I would have to commend them on it; after all it is drug free. If they really wanted to help people they could do an even better job by ceasing to produce and push their drugs that take the lives and souls of multiplied thousands. I appreciate the job you (Jeff), Southern Baptist Disaster Relief workers, and so many others are doing in North Dakota. They did a great job here after Hurricane Ike. David R. Brumbelow PS – Jeff & Dave, I’ll let… Read more »
David, Thanks for the comments. I don’t think I ever remembered to email you and thank you for the book (by the way, I set a new record with a box of Little Debbies in my drawer for almost two weeks). I don’t quite follow the PR thing. If they were in it for the PR, they are doing a lousy job of getting the word out. I know lots of people who have no idea they even do this and I never saw a peep about it in our local news throughout this disaster event, so it doesn’t appear… Read more »
You would be amazed at how much companies such as beer distributorships and casinos do in their local communities and at the sites of massive disasters. In some cases, they often will give the Red Cross or its equivalent local agency a check that has quite a few zeroes on it.
And they’ll do absolutely no marketing of it except for internal materials usually reserved for investors.
Bill,
People know about it…they make sure that people know about it. It’s one of the main reasons they do….for good PR.
David
David: I didn’t know about it. I don’t think too many people knew about it and Jeff is right. It was not in any news outlets.
Just because people know about it doesn’t mean it’s getting advertised readily by the company in question.
These people got water from a beer company. They (the people) told others who told other who told news outlets.
I had no clue that Busch had done this until I read this post here.
Of course its good PR, but again, companies will help when the need arises.
Besides, altruism doesn’t really exist in this world.
They do advertise it as pure rocky mountain spring water.
If it didn’t taste so much like a metal can, I might believe them.
Rocky Mountain spring water from St. Louis? I think you are thinking Coors.
Mike, All I can go by is what he says….it sounded a lot like he was saying that the Busch people were gonna be commended by God, maybe even make it to Heaven, all due to their giving out water to thirsty people. Even though they get a lot of good advertising out of it….their name is on the can, bTW. lol. But, all I can go by is by what Jeff says. Sooooo…. Todd, Are you seriously saying that the Bible teaches works salvation? I have no problem with the Bible. So, you really do think that the Bible… Read more »
I guess I’d just like to see a little more grace and salt in our responses. Perhaps assuming the best of our brothers in Christ. Knowing much of what Jeff has written and through his comments here on Voices I think a more appropriate question would have been:
Jeff, help me out. (Quote passages) It sounds to me from these passages like you are saying that the Busch people are saved because they have given out water. I doubt that is what you mean–so could you please clarify for me.
David,
No one here has denied justification by faith. Your argument is a non-sequitur. If anyone is denying the clear teaching of Scripture it is you. Can you demonstrate how Jeff’s exegesis is not accurate instead of lobbing obviously false accusations at him?
-Todd
I’m not lobbing anything, nor am I trying to be mean. I asked Jeff a question. Then, Todd jumps in…and it really did sound like Todd was saying that people are saved by giving water to thirsty people. So, what am I supposed to think? When you’re saying that God is going to say well done, my good and faithful servants to the Busch people for handing out water, but to some others, who claim to be Christians, but dont go hand out water, will be shocked in a bad way….what am I supposed to think? All I can go… Read more »
Giving a cup of cold water to thirsty people is not the way to salvation.
But it is the way saved people act.
‘I thirst’ Never underestimate the importance of any act of loving-kindness, in memory of Our Lord and His Sacrifice, done to relieve the suffering of others, especially for those who cannot help themselves. To care for people in this way is an act of mercy that honors Our Savior as this kindness is done for love of Him and for His Sake and in His Name. . . a young man in the group home where my son is a resident has trouble drinking and can only manage to swallow small sips between breaths . . . it takes staff… Read more »
But, Bill Mac, that’s not what was said…now, was it?
That was clearly the intent, and also very clearly not remotely implying that the Bush people would be saved because they gave out water.
Also, I’m sure that Busch got a lot of good advertisement out of this…so, I really doubt that it was purely out of the goodness of their little, pea picking hearts that they did this…..
David
I am not sure that advertising is their main focus considering how few people know that they do it. It isn’t something that gets a lot of press. I never saw it mentioned once in the news during this particular disaster in fact. I guess I am just a little more cautious about judging the motives of others, especially others I don’t know at all.
so, I really doubt that it was purely out of the goodness of their little, pea picking hearts that they did this…..
Wow. So companies never do any of their philanthropy from right motives? Or just beer companies? What if it was Lifeway handing out the water? Would there also be a comment about their little pea picking hearts?
So…
Churches readily advertise their presence whenever they’re out in the field too.
Pot, meet kettle…
Maybe yall didnt see the name of the company on the “water” can? Many people, who got one of these, knows it. They’ll tell their family and friends, and I’m sure that Busch knows that. Just as Jeff is telling all of us about that.
Also, a church does what it does out of obedience to the Lord first. Secondly, we do it to help those people, who have need. Thirdly, we do it in the name of Jesus…of course, we do it to advertise…to promote the Gospel.
And?
You haven’t refuted my point at all.
You’re trying to prop up this absurd idea that if a beer distributorship wants to help a community, it’s to promote themselves since their logo is on the water.
How is that different than a church going into the same area, wearing t-shirts with their church’s logo on it and arriving in vans with the church’s logo emblazoned on the side?
Bill,
Yes, we do…we want to advertise our Lord and His Gospel….we want people to know that its a church that’s helping them….And????
Of course we do….we want it to be a witness for the Lord.
Busch wants it to be an ad for their Beer.
Do you not understand the simple concepts of marketing and advertising?
Companies do it. Churches do it.
When you put your logo on something, you are advertising your company or church.
That’s a basic year of marketing boiled down into a sentence.
When you do outreach in your community, do you invite them to your church? Why?
I mean, if you’re just advertising Christ, why not present them with a list of area churches?
When you do outreach, you advertise yourself. It’s a simple truth that many gloss over. However, in the basic essence of things, you advertise yourself.
I think you have it backwards, David: “For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to.” “Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.” “What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them? Suppose a brother or a sister is without clothes and daily food. If one of you says to… Read more »
Greg, I may have to ask you to step in and write for me in the future. That is a good way of putting it. I find a lot more people (online at least) who spend time obsessing over getting every I dotted and T crossed when it comes to theology and end up neglecting these other things that Jesus said were more important. I remember in Matthew 9 and 12 when He chastised the Pharisees and told them to go and learn what Hosea 6:6 means and quotes it: I desire mercy and not sacrifice I take the statement… Read more »
Jeff and Greg,
Of course, someone who’s really saved will do good works. Of course, we’ll care about the needs of others….of course. BUt, that’s not the way it was written.
DAvid
David,
It seems that plenty of other readers understood it. They were even spending time correcting your erroneous assumption about what I said in the comments.
David: please note that I was not comforming to your request to correctly mouth the shibboleth that you requested. When Jesus speaks and offers relationship–as he did to the thief on the cross next to him–the offer is direct, authentic, unconditional and not subject to either eisegesis nor exegesis. Those are the words of the Eternal. The Alpha and Omega. The First and Last. We confirm his words, we so not conform them. If Jesus says you are a sheep BECAUSE you gave water to one of the least of these, then I have no choice but to accept what… Read more »
It’s some of these attitudes that are causing the disappering membership of SBC churches. They use all the churchy words in their sermons, people join their churches, then they find out how like whitewashed tombs they truly are…..gone…find another church where folks act like Christians as well as talk like a Christian. Always finding fault, even with good deeds.
Moderator note: I changed wording of the first sentence to eliminate what I felt was an unfair personal statement directed at some of the commenters. I hope Jake would agree that I kept the intent of the comment intact.
Your choice to remove the 2 names to whom I referred is just that….your choice. People like them need to be named and shamed. You may as well remove the entire post. I’ve run into too many of their type lately and am disgusted with the way they treat others. No one other than those who subscribe to their identical version of theology receives any verbal decency from them. One cannot have a theological give and take without them finding some point that flaws ones salvation.
My main intent was to keep it about the ideas more than the person who said them. If you feel I mangled your original intent too much just by removing the specific names, I apologize.
You seem intent to name names and make it personal. I would have thought that you would have noticed that they were in fact critical of my post and statements in some degree. I think you can make the point you are making without having to name names in this case.
If I missed one of them making a personal attack on another commenter from this thread in the above comments, please feel free to point it out and I will edit it out as well.
David, We all need to exercise humility in our reading of others; I do, and clearly you do as well. It is obvious that no one is promoting works salvation here, so I think we can drop that schtick. Discussions are much more edifying if we take the time to read what others are saying instead of assuming more than has been said for the sake of throwing out the next zinger and asserting our own personal blogosphere superiority. If you are not lobbing bombs but simply asking questions then maybe you should invest in a good book or two… Read more »
Todd,
Maybe I do, Brother. I know there’s a lot to me that needs improving. But, it really looked like Jeff was saying that God would be pleased with someone just because they gave water to thirsty people…That’s the way it reads.
David
David,
Funny how it only seems to read that way to people who are intent on villanizing any and all things that have to do with alcohol. To the rest of us it looks like Jeff is saying, “Hey, what a surprise it will be to some of us when we see the guy who worked at the Anheuser-Busch plant in heaven and the guy who preached against alcohol not.” How are you managing to read it as saying that Jeff believes the Anheuser-Busch guys must be saved because they serve water to disaster victims?
I think a lower realm has just frozen over with what I am about to say, but upon skimming through I think I agree with volfan007. 🙂
I was gone all day working then golfing and did not get home until almost midnight so I’ll have to read through this thread more carefully.
Thanks, Mark. Maybe we can ice skate on that lower realm? 🙂
I started this comment thread by just asking Jeff if that’s what he meant to say, because it sure looked that way to me.
But, I think If I said that grass is green and the sky is blue, that some people in this blog would argue with me….
David, now that you mention it, in Oklahoma, our grass is brown and our sky is generally blue when it is not purple, salmon, turquoise and red. 🙂
lol
But, Hariette, that’s Oklahoma. There’s a lot of strange things in Okie land.
I have to hand it too you David, you sure know how to hijack a blog. At least we aren’t talking about the “a” word, and please no one talk about the “C” word, had enough of that from the other post.
Wow! When I first read Jeff’s message I thought this would be light and even funny….but it SURE did get serious and heavy!