William Thornton is the inimitable SBC Plodder.
“No one goes to the convention anymore,” laments some of the brethren who have been around long enough to remember the sardine days where 20,000, 30,000, and 40,000 messengers could pack into a meeting venue.
2010 Orlando 11,070
2011 Phoenix 4,814
2012 New Orleans 7,814
2013 Houston 5,103
2014 Baltimore 5,294
Toss out Orlando, the attendance bump for which we can thank Mickey Mouse. Look askance at New Orleans because it’s a nice venue with the crawfish, beignets, and all that. That leaves SBC attendance in the 5k range. Pretty low for a denomination where millions gather each Lord’s Day to worship in almost 50,000 churches.
Consider this: The North American Mission Board’s SEND NORTH AMERICA conference scheduled for this summer already has over 7,200 registrations. Toss out maybe a couple of hundred unpaid registrations and that is 7,000 registrants paying $129 per person (early registrants paid $89) to attend.
The SBC annual meeting costs zip, only food, transportation, and lodging, nothing to attend.
So, why would seven thousand Southern Baptists pay good money to attend an SNA conference when the SBC meeting is free?
There are a lot of reasons why in 2015 Southern Baptists aren’t that keen to attend the SBC annual meeing and slap backs, glad hand, and engage in the annual bragfest with old friends.
- It’s boring.
- There’s nothing much going on these days.
- Folks don’t see much value in attending.
- Nothing much will change in the old ship SBC.
- Neither my presence, my vote, nor my voice count for much in the SBC.
- Decisions are pre-made by an oligarchy of SBC grandees and conventions just ratify them.
Factor in the reality that a vocal segment of SBCers don’t really like NAMB and the attendance figures are indeed impressive.
I know I’m odd, but I enjoy the SBC.
It’s a chance to fellowship face to face with a lot of guys I only interact with online during the year. Of course, that also means I actually HAVE to interact with a few of the knuckleheads here face to face (did I say that outloud?).
The SBC is what it is – a business meeting. It can be improved, but we can’t make it what it’s not to bring in a crowd.
Obviously, if you want higher attendance, have the thing in Orlando, New Orleans, probably Atlanta, perhaps Charlotte – those easy access, great locale places. Actually, for my money, you could have it in Baltimore every year. One of the better venues!
Money is a thing, of course, and that is unfortunate. It is NOT a thing for those who plan the SBC, but it is for many who have to decide whether to go or not.
But I like to go because I like to hang out with friends who I only see at the SBC. The business? Usually there’s some drama. The preaching? There’s usually a good sermon or two. But I go for the time hanging out with guys in the hallways, at restaurants, etc.
Hey, Charlotte is just down the road. I might come if it’s in Charlotte!
Actually the fellowship does sound appealing. There are some guys I’d like to meet.
By the way, I was pleasantly surprised at attendance at Baltimore last year. Yes, it was an election year. But it was a city out of the SBC wheelhouse – long way from Texas/OK etc.
I was expecting something more in the 4000 range. That we were bigger than Houston was something I found shocking.
For me, the pastor’s conference makes the SBC meeting more attractive. Some of the auxiliary activities that are popping up help motivate me to attend as well. I enjoy attending.
To be perfectly honest, and maybe this is a marker of my increasing age, but I used to like the pastor’s conference better than I have in recent years.
Depends on the speaker. I skipped out on some. Some were awful. Some preached sermons I had heard them preach before. And a couple were really good. H.B. Charles is my favorite preacher in the SBC right now.
H.B. Charles is a great preacher. He is also old school, that’s why I like him.
Dave,
I’m only 44 but give me the old time preachers any day. I went to some of the pastor’s conference in Houston. I wasn’t impressed.
We have lots of great preachers in the SBC but everyone seems to want the new cool hip preachers.
I want to listen to preachers who simply exegete Scripture. Don’t care if they are hip, Old, Young, Southern Baptist, Acts 29, or some independent church on Saturn. Just give me the guys who exegete the text.
That’s cool Tyler. You have ever right to your preferences, and like you I prefer to hear the scriptures exegeted. I also prefer the old school method of preaching.
Because you mentioned the SNA event specifically, I am going to sound off for a moment. Not because anyone is listening, but because it will make me feel better.
I am not planning to attend the SNA event in August. It was initially on my calendar, but when time came to buy a ticket, I opted out. I got an email in early January telling me that I could buy a ticket for $99. Also in that email, I was told that if I have a group of 25 or more, we could buy tickets for $45 each. The church I pastor has less than 100 people gathering for worship on Sunday morning. I wouldn’t get 25 people to attend if the event was being held at one of churches in our association, much less get that many people to travel to Nashville and stay in hotel rooms for a couple nights. The fact that the lower price was designed to benefit churches that have 25 staff members they can bring ran all over me. I don’t so much have a problem with outside conferences having big discounts for large groups. I understand it. But the church I pastor sends a good deal of money to NAMB when considered alongside our receipts for a given year.
I realize that the pricing scheme was not designed as a slight against small churches. It was not intended to bless the megas and poop on the minatures, but that is what it does. When I emailed to express my concern, I didn’t hear a peep back from NAMB.
I won’t let it keep me from supporting the good work that I believe NAMB is doing. I am planning to attend the free Send NA event at SEBTS next month and am hoping to bring a few members from our church. I will promote and give to the AAEO as I always do. But a little recognition from convention elites that small churches are the foundation of the SBC would be nice from time to time.
What if small-church members used social media, or maybe even an app, to create a group for purposes of ticket discounts? Find 24 other folks who want to go to the same event and sign up together. Would that work? Would there be anything unethical about it?
According to the email Participants have to be from the same church to get the discount referenced.
Orlando 2010 was the year of the Great Commission Resurgence report, so I’d say a minor controversy was as big a reason there as Mouse. Which goes to show that some of your thinking is right — people come when they think it’s important to come.
But GCR also marked a generational shift from CR to the Happy Calvinists. They seem to severely discount the idea that a group of believers and the Holy Spirit can make some decisions *better* than professionals. (And for generational reasons, I think, not necessarily theological reasons.)
I’m having trouble following this comment?
It’s easy to understand, Tarheel. Calvinists are incapable of relying on the Holy Spirit…
…or that’s a red herring and it has nothing to do with attendance at the SBC Annual Meeting. You pick.
Dear Greg: Your remark must have been meant in good humor, because I have quite a few books in my library on the Holy Spirit. Many of them written by Calvinists and every one of them shows or displays or represents that he is completely dependent upon the Holy Spirit for the accomplishment of any good. You must know that our Founding Fathers, Roger Williams, Dr. John Clarke, William Screven, Richard Furman, Silas and Jesse Mercer, Isaac Backus, John Hart, Shubal Stearns, Daniel Marshall, Samuel Harris, John Leland, John Taylor, John Gano, Luther Rice, William B. Johnson, Basil Manley, Sr., James Petigru Boyce, etc., were all Calvinists. Had Boyce failed during the financial difficulties of Sosuthern Seminary, You might not have had a seminary education (and for your information, he carried the seminary on his own shoulders during that time, financially speaking)(I am assuming you have a seminary education). And another Calvinist, Manley, Sr., suggested the founding of the seminary (along with one for New Orleans (which did not get done until much later) in 1835 and then served as President of the Educational Conventions of 1857,1858, and 1859 which founded Southern after which he served as the first President of the Board of Trustees, while a preacher boy from his former pastorate of FBC Charleston served as the first President of the Institution and his son, Jr., served as one of the first faculty members and who, by the way, drew up the Abstract of Principles which are definitely linked to the Sandy Creek Baptist Association’s Confession of 1816 which organization adopted that confession under the leadership of Luther Rice who, in so many words, said Predestination is in the Bible and you had better preach it. Funny, how the Father of Missions among Southern Baptists should advocate the doctrines that everyone think are anti-mission and anti-evangelistic. O yes, in 1816 the messengers from Mt. Pisgah Baptist Church which had organized in 1814 were present, and their Articles of Faith said not one word about Christ dying for every soul on earth, only of His dying for the church. What is important about that is that the first Southern Baptist missionary to China, Matthew T. Yates, came from that church. All of these were so-called Calvinists, really believers in Sovereign Grace, wholly dependent upon the Holy Spirit for success in their efforts. The same kind of people would make room for folks who believe like you do in 1787-1800 with the adoption of the Union of Separate and Regular Baptists, to wit, that “the preaching that Christ tasted death for every man shall be no bar to communion.” They did this, because in part they were ashamed of themselves for falling out with brothers who, like themselves, had suffered for Christ. They also were committed to the principle that one must be persuaded to believe – not forced to believe. That is why they insisted on religious liberty, only asking of those who agreed with them to be committed to extending His cause. There is more, but I must defer.
🙂
Greg,
That’s how I took it too – but wanted to make sure I was understanding his implication correctly before I responded – so I asked for clarification.
In the meantime I’ve decided that no matter the intent of the implication – I’m going to treat it as a red herring – I think that’ll probably be best.
Tarheel, Greg –
See my long-ish reply below. I tend to think of the current group as “Happy Calvinists,” because they’re the newest participants. But it’s probably more fair to say we currently have a “Late Boomer/Early GenX coalition.”
Whatever the label, the current generation isn’t as sold on congregational meetings, and the SBC operates like a big congregational meeting.
That’s not theology as much as age; 9Marks holds member meetings very highly.
Jon: I agree with your deeper analysis. I honestly do not believe that the Calvinist tag–Happy or otherwise–led to any kind of useful conclusions, hence my use of the term “red herring”.
In a post-modern culture we see rejection of authority, mass-customization of belief, and rejection of bureaucratic–i.e. “military structured”–organizations as kind of “megatrends” (to borrow from John Naisbitt). Add to that the immediacy of online interactions–both social and less expensive traditional media–and an unwillingness to change to support influence by the current generation and you have an opportunity for “slow growth” (if not demise) over time.
In discussions on this site that considered the suggestion of satellite conventions, there was more concern about ballot control than about engagement and participation in my opinion. Perhaps we need to turn that around. The only election that needs immediacy is the SBC president and that’s due to control of the committee selections more than the symbolic role (not that we should ignore that, by the way.)
I’m a natural analyst/systems enginee by knack, by education, and by experience. I’m not sure what I described is necessarily “broken” but it feels like there isn’t a deep understanding of how human behavior interacts with the current “system”. We sometimes call that in information technology a “UX” or “user experience” problem.
The problem with the user experience of Southern Baptists is that the Convention is an extra-biblical structure, one borrowed from Masonry and the federal government. There is some scriptural justification for the local association, but one will search long and hard to find any justification for State Conventions and the Southern Baptist Convention followed by the Boards for the various institutions as well as the other organizations. This is not much debated or discussed today, but it was in the 1800s. The Landmarkers and their setbacks among Southern Baptists might explain why the discussion over the legitimacy of the conventions and other structures ended. With the set up we have now, the IMB and NAMB along with the various other organizations would not call the Apostle Paul or many of the other leaders of the New Testament churches. However, our Lord did not limit Himself then, and He does not limit Himself now. Eventually, the convention and other structures will wither away. This will happen, in part, due to the loss of interest by the folks who really run things; they will be preoccupied with other things, namely, world structures and how to deal with hostile governments due to the fact that they no longer have any idea of how the Bible relates to local, state, national and world government. The one factor which every one has over looked is a Third Great Awakening. Such a visitation will alter the landscape, change and transform the culture. People will become more independent as they are able to provide themselves with electricity without reference to any grid, food without reference to any supermarket, financing without reference to any banks, and transportation to the fartherest stars at speeds way in excess of the speed of light, already one has presented a case for the reality that men are now traveling in excess of 200 times the speed of light, Einstein notwithstanding. Ever hear of Nikola Tesla? The future is coming at us like a starship traveling at warp speed. After all, in order for the angels to gather the elect from one end of THE heaven to the other, people must be able to travel there and settle the planets all along the way, all in order to have enough to be as innumerable as the stars of heaven and the sand by the sea shore and the redeemed in Heaven.(Mt.24:31; Rev.7:9) And for that we have a thousand generations (I Chron.16:15). Go figure the length of those generations.
Sorry, it might read cryptically.
I mean to say that 2010 was different from the following conventions, in that it struck a chord with two different groups. It drew people who were broadly interested in the Convention staying relevant. It also drew younger people who, at the time, wanted to see not just relevance, but a generational change. It was the passing of the torch from the Charles Stanleys of SBC-life to the Johnny Hunts.
A side effect of the generational change, however, is that this newer group doesn’t believe as strongly in the ‘rightness’ of congregational meetings.
If you look at a local church meeting and see the gospel at work, watching the SBC is nearly majestic. But if you see local church meetings as an unfortunate chance for contributors to complain about things they do not understand, the SBC looks like a carnival of dysfunction. What self-respecting leader would to that to himself? The latter view is gaining, I think, and the number of people who want to go to an SBC, who think it’s a spiritually beneficial idea to go, is decreasing. That’s especially true if there isn’t a doctrinal dispute up for grabs.
As I tried to say earlier, I don’t blame Calvinism for that change. Some of the youngest generation are rediscovering congregational polity. It’s a product of late-20th century corporate evangelicalism. But William is right that there’s a change, and that change is causing lower attendance at the SBC.
To put it another way, Convention attendance is a combination of people who think ‘what’ we do is important, as well as the ‘how.’
We’re in a time where the average Baptist is more concerned with ‘what’ than ‘how.’
As practical as I am, I think ‘how’ explains some of the difference between us and the exhaustion of the Protestant mainline.
William,
Thanks for your article, I actually found it encouraging. I mean the fact that more people will pay good money to go to a conference in support of missions than they will to sit through a 2-3 day business meeting is awesome.
In answer to your question, if I had a $1000 dollar conference budget, I would spend it going to the E.K. Bailey Expository Preaching Conference in Dallas, TX.
William,
We have approx. 3,600 SBC churches in AL. In Cullman County (80,000 people) we have 126 SBC ‘churches’. 90% of them have bi-vocational pastors. Not because they do not want a full time vocational pastor, but, because they are in persistent decline and do not have the funds to support one.
Dr. Hawsey, President of Wallace State Univ. and a believer, invited me to put together a Forum to equip and encourage pastors and church leaders. I did that. I invited Micah Fries to join me in the initial presentation. We invited 350+ pastors via direct mail and phone contacts. “0” registered.
The churches have one of two attitudes. 1) We are so far gone nothing will help. or, 2) we are just fine and we do not need any help.
As long as the SBC continues to embrace mere numerics as the primary metric of effectiveness (how many, how much, how often) the precipitous decline will continue. We urgently need to measure ministry effectiveness by transformation. I pray earnestly that we will and soon.
In Grace,
Tom
803 413 3509
Tom:
Did you survey the churches to determine which attitudes they displayed? Or are you summarizing what you believe they felt?
Tom,
I sat across from Micah for breakfast this morning and I mentioned your post. First time to meet him, he has good insight and it would be of value to hear more from him.
“It’s boring.
There’s nothing much going on these days.
Folks don’t see much value in attending.
Nothing much will change in the old ship SBC.
Neither my presence, my vote, nor my voice count for much in the SBC.
Decisions are pre-made by an oligarchy of SBC grandees and conventions just ratify them”
I think these are good points. I would absolutely go to one of the meetings if it were close by, but to be honest, I would prefer to spend money to go to something like T4G. I think if some of these weak points mentioned above would change, I would have more a desire to spend the money going to the meetings. I really would like too.
Tis cut and dried. The Awakening of prayer to pray for an Awakening with the knowledge of the theology which produces such visitations or, rather, is blessed of God to such a wonder. Still it is also true that the neglect of the SBC and the state conventions, until something better and more biblical is found and in operation, will destroy the greatest mission force in history and cost us our freedom as the numbers do count in the seats of government. But we need the small group mentality of the African Americans, the mentality and practice of protest, marches, and etc.
I’ve been to a few…. it is a business meeting with an attempt at flare. It worked in the absence of technology. Those days are gone.
Scrap the annual convention theatrics at a physical location, …go digital, save money. Get creative with regional events, encourage planting churches and helping churches,…then the thousands of churches and millions of attendees will get involved, make better use of money, and time.
Ditto
This would be a difficult thing to quantify, but let’s say the costs associated with the annual meeting are 6-7 million dollars. This is being paid for, in one way or another, by the folks in the pew. Is there 6-7 million dollars of value coming out of the annual meeting? Are there any metrics to suggest that anything improves nationwide after the SBC (church attendance, giving, church planting, IMB appications, etc).
That is right Bill,…the money is definitely being spent, along with things in the local market. All money out of the evangelists (all believers) pockets,….and just for business.
Technology is the way forward to decrease cost. In order for that to occur, …the SBC would need to change its bylaws, and operating policy/procedures in order to make this happen. That is probably the most difficult obstacle and disruptive activity to then begin to form a change to conducting business digitally.
I have consistently gone to the SBC each June for over 35-years because I feel a kinship to the Southern Baptist family. I meet old friends and have made new friends there. I see it as a large family gathering. I value the relationships that I’ve made in college, seminary, ministry and fostering those relationships at the SBC. I care about the future of the SBC. That is why I will be there in June.
Tyler
Hang with T4G. It is refreshing and well…. You know
Bill
Romans 5:1
Yea, but I still would like to get the point to where I know without a doubt that the SBC meetings would definitely be worth the time and money. I love the SBC and want to make sure I’m doing my part. But I greatly benefit from T4G. Wouldn’t it be awesome if a SBC meeting happened during SBC meeting? 😀
*Happened during T4G. Sorry haha
I have seriously considered not going to SBC meetings anymore for a lot of the reasons that you mention, William. I used to really enjoy the Pastor’s Conferences…..they used to really pull me in. But, I haven’t cared much for them in the last few years. In fact, I have missed most of the Pastor’s Conferences in the last 5 years….preferring to travel on that day, or else, just sitting in on one or two of the sermons, and doing other things during the rest of the time, like walking around the booths with my wife, or fellowshipping with people in the hallways.
Also, I attend because my Church sends me, and supports me financially to go. And, since my Church supports the work of the SBC, I feel that I should attend and participate in the business….even though I know that a lot of it is already decided in the back rooms. We’re just being asked to rubber stamp what the powers that be want to happen.
Also, I enjoy the time with my wife….doing something different in a different city. I really enjoyed Baltimore and crab cakes. But, I’m seriously considering not going to Columbus, Ohio. I’m really having trouble, more and more, of seeing the point of going to SBC meetings, and spending all that money…the Churches money….on attending something that I don’t enjoy, as much, anymore.
Really, I’d rather go to a meeting where they’ve got great, worshipful singing and good, Bible preaching.
Oh well, I might end up at Columbus, anyway. I don’t know.
David
David, perhaps you should just go and camp out at a nearby coffee shop to pray for all those nonspiritual folks over at the convention center. I was going to suggest you prop your feet up at Barley’s Brewing Company near the convention, but it may be overrun with Southern Baptists by the time you get there. ;>)
Max,
Sadly, your comment about the bars and pubs being full of Southern Baptists during the convention might be correct.
David
Oh, David, you need to be more culturally-relevant! Don’t you know that pub ministry is an excellent way to untap your faith?!
All the reasons you listed are valid. For me, I tend to attend conferences with an hour, of a few hours of where I live, and that have some ministry focus in an area I feel will help our church.
The thing that Dave Mentions about hallways is DEFINITELY a high point of conferences, but I don’t need to go to a national conference to do that, At a more regional conference, there’s actually a chance of me having contact outside the conference with some of those people.
However, distance is not the only factor…I did not attend the SBC when it was an hour from my house a few years ago. I just had better things to do. I guess I’m one of those “younger” guys that just doesn’t see any good reason to go.
If it happens to be in Louisville, Indianapolis, Cincinnati, or Dayton…there’s a slight chance I might try to go…otherwise no chance at all.
Dr. Floyd mentioned that one of the most important issues facing the Southern Baptist convention today was the lack of attendance at the annual meeting – he made A talking point in his candidacy (in his statement to Baptist press) – so William, it appears that our president is on it!
I wonder what you other guys think of Floyd’s assesment?
I would say: It’s NOT one of the most important things. A symptom of something important, maybe, but that’s it.
I stated exactly what you just said when he answered that way.
A symptom of something, possibly. Important? Possibly not.
I know I’m definitely in the minority on this thought, but I kinda see the lack of attendance as good thing that’s happening in churches. Churches seem to be more interested in conferences such as ETS, 9 Marks, and Pastor Conferences which I see as a very good thing. I think if the SBC meetings want more people to come, then there probably should be less politics, less of the “good ol boy” system, and maybe more transparency. I could be wrong, but just a thought.
You mean we should know the salaries of the people we hire and appoint to leadership positions?
That’s crazy-talk!!!
So, Tyler, what I’m hearing from you is that it’s more important to attend CALVINIST meetings?
SMH
David
9 Marks is the ONLY one of those that is distinctly Calvinist. You anti-Calvinists are so phobic it is like a disease sometimes, David.
umm…above, Tyler mentioned T4G, as well.
Also, in the past few years, our SBC Pastor’s Conferences have had a very strong Calvinist theme to them.
David
Perhaps part of the issue of low attendance is that the calvinists don’t think the non-calvinist pastors are worth hearing…and the non-calvinists don’t think the calvinist pastors are worth hearing…
…and maybe those who are fine with hearing from either kind of pastor don’t want to come and hear both sides complaining….????
For most of us, the whole world does not revolve around whether someone is a Calvinist or not a Calvinist. For some, that is the only thing that matters, obviously, but I think that is not true for most Southern Baptists.
Dave,
I wish it really didn’t matter if someone was a Calvinist, or just a plain old, Non Calvinist Baptist. I really wish it didn’t matter.
David
Even the Jacksonville Pastor’s Conference had quite a few Calvinists this year. If they up the percentage a bit more I may consider attending next time. 😉
Volfan,
Calvinist Theme? Would you elaborate? Do you mean speakers tgat happened to be, or were the 5 points taught from the platform – what?
Dave,
Just take a look at this years line up at the Pastor’s Conference.
http://www.sbcpc.net/
David
Volfan,
Ok, I looked – still not seeing your point.
Seriously? Russell Moore, David Platt, HB Charles, Vance Pittman, James McDonald, JD Grear, Paul Tripp….
Now I’m curious too. Is Calvinism being taught at the Pastor’s conference?
“Seriously? Russell Moore, David Platt, HB Charles, Vance Pittman, James McDonald, JD Grear, Paul Tripp….”
…were invited to speak by a president who doesn’t harbor Calvinistic tendencies. I can’t find enough on the two vice-presidents at first glance to tell either way. They aren’t big names in either camp that I’ve seen. It seems that the three are motivated more by pastoral concerns than soteriological ones. I think they just invited who they thought were good pastoral speakers. Perhaps you could send in some suggestions for next year of non-Calvinists who would be willing to speak on pastoral matters.
MacDonald and Gaines should not be on that list.
Vance Pittman is a calvinist? Didn’t know that.
So you object to any Calvinist leaning speakers being on the agenda at all?
I’d understand that except I highly doubt any of the dudes you mentioned will be preaching:
” I’m predestined to be a Calvinist and so are you – that is if you’re elect.” Or anything like that.
It certainly was not that way in Baltimore – as matter fact the way I remember most of the speakers were not Calvinists.
There’s no amount of evidence that will prove to anti-Calvinists that Calvinism is not at the root of everything in the SBC.
MacDonald should not be on that list.
We need to get off the celebrity system.
It isn’t just that MacDonald is a celebrity. Frankly they practically all are in that lineup. It’s that MacDonald thinks SBC polity is from Satan. And Gaines. For crying out loud, Gaines shielded a child molester. He should be in jail, not preaching to SBC pastors. What are people thinking?
I just want to say that I love and appreciate my Calvinist and Arminian Brothers and Sisters in Christ, even though I do oppose systems of philosophy…and even though I do see a Calvinist takeover of the SBC, which makes me think that Non Calvinists in the SBC will be asked to give but have no real seat at the table. I think some Calvinists are militant enough about their Calvinism to push and marginalize anyone, who doesn’t adhere to the Calvinist system in some way.
David
Oh brother…
Let me reword that a little bit….from a perspective you obviously miss
_____
…and even though I do see an effort to hold onto the established anti Calvinist power groups of the SBC of , power groups that have for many years have insisted that Calvinists in the SBC give but have no real seat at the table, be hardly ever seen and certainly never heard. In fact, have seen some anti Calvinists be so militant about their Anti Calvinism so as to push and marginalize anyone, who doesn’t adhere to the Anti Calvinist system.
Let’s make a deal, would our non-Calvinist brethren be willing to jettison Gaines if a Calvinist was also jettisoned?
LOL…Bill Mac – Lets make a deal!
I am going to pretend like that comment was a joke because I honestly can’t see how one would jump to such a conclusion by my comments.
I don’t think it means that there is some conspiracy given that the president of the Pastor’s Conference, pastor Willy Rice, is hardly a straight-up Calvinist.
https://vimeo.com/85169945
JD Greear may be the only non entity head calvinist on that list – I’m not sure though cause I don’t know much about the Others.
Additionally – Steven Gaines more than balances any “undue calvinist influence” – he’s a very vocal anti calvinist.
I wouldn’t be motivated to go unless there were some workshop/breakout small group sessions on theology and practical ministry. Large group motivational preaching, business, and agency booths aren’t enough, for me at least.
Could it be that the letdown is a result of having been subjected to an intense dialectic for over 30 years? Once the change was accomplished, the same old, same old prevailed, and, funny or not, the new faces leading had some of the same folks from the other side working for them. Could it be that outside forces really run this denomination as they, apparently, do others? The real answer to the situation is an Awakening, not something that a preacher can readily sport as the mark of his ministry; it is a work of God, an act which affects and effects the whole of society, producing preachers whose very words drip Scripture and people hang on them like those who hang on to a rope for dear life. No one, and I mean no one, seems to be considering what really happened during the First and Second Great Awakenings and the launching of the Great Century of Missions; they do not consider the theology or the kind of prayer effort that was involved. I know of no one looking at Jonathan Edwards’ Humble Attempt which inspired Carey and others to launch the modern missionary movement with its references to and discussions of the prophecies and promises of such visitations in the last days, even the last hour. And as to the theology who expects to win the whole earth and every soul on it for a thousand generations along with the inhabitants of quadrillions of planets from one end of THE (definite in the Greek, Mt.24:31) heaven to the other for 900,000 years (a thousand generations, I Chron.16:15) and an innumerable and uncountable multitude of the redeemed with the theology of Predestination, Total Depravity/Inability, Unconditional Election, Limited Atonement/Particular Redemption, Irresistible Grace, Preservation/Perseverance of the Saints, and Reprobation used as invitations and serving as the most evangelistic subjects, the most winsome, engaging, thrilling, exciting, stirring, motivating, attractive, magnetic, maturing, moving, extensive, intensive, overwhelming, conquering, victorious doctrines ever revealed by the mind of God. Such was and is the theology of the Awakenings, and such theology is the heart and soul and power and passion of true soul-winning. Our Lord preached such, and those who knew they were sinners heard Him gladly with hearts on fire. Only the religious people were enraged and sought to murder Him…even His own neighbors in Nazareth. Selah! Pause and give thought to that fact. Remember sinners flocked to hear Him, while the self-righteous devised plans to crucify Him.
William T
I wish you were wrong but fear you are correct. I was a in attendance at those 45,000 meeting venues. It is my opinion, while some of those days were very troubling,what was accomplished (CR) was necessary to float the SBC boat.
At any rate WELL SAID.
D. L. Payton,
I was also one of the 45,000 messengers at the Dallas, TX SBC during the height of the Conservative Resurgence.
I think I saw you there!
Nothing like a sweeping controversy to get a crowd of Baptists, or anyone else.
But I do believe the Conservative Resurgence was completely justified and correct. Thank God our SBC is on a solid footing with the inerrancy of God’s inspired Word, the Bible.
David R. Brumbelow
David
Amen my brother
Declining SBC annual meeting attendance is not news. I thought the contrast between SNA and the AM was interesting. Dave is right, of course, the AM has a purpose that works against it – reports, business, etc. There is a declining interest in the Cooperative Program, in denominationalism itself, and correspondingly to the events that are necessary for our cooperative work.
The pre-AM pastor’s conference is not much of a draw to me. Some are making points about the non-SB’s invited to the PC.
SNA is the only national level SBC program that has much success these days. The numbers, frankly, are astonishing to me. I plan to attend in Nashville (maybe, maybe not Columbus).
I don’t know that SNA is a megachurch thing, Adam, or that it caters to such. Half off if you bring 25 isn’t much of a bargain – $89 compared to $1,125.
And I have no idea how RF thinks he can tweak the AM to make it more attractive. Ed Young the Senior tried that a generation ago.
Best guess–
RF hopes to shorten the business times, cut to no more than 1 opportunity for motions from the floor (eliminate that entirely if possible,) add more prayer times (without commenting one or the other way on where they fit with Matthew 6,) and whatever else is necessary to reduce anything that might look “bad” at the SBC. Especially anything that presents the opportunity for someone to voice a contrary opinion.
Matthew 6 prohibits corporate prayer?
no, but Matthew 6 certainly prohibits praying for the sake of having other people seeing you praying.
Or, more specifically, points out that if we pray with the desire that other people hear us, then that’s what we get. Other people to hear us.
Fixing whatever ails the SBC won’t come from making a big to-do about prayers from the platform at the convention. Nor will it come from being known as a convention for praying.
Now, whether or not the added prayer times on the platform of the SBC are coming from hearts of prayer or those with a desire to be seen praying, that’s another discussion.
Doug
RF procedure, in my opinion, will not accomplish the goal. It has been my experience that the meeting hall fills up more during business and empties during other agenda.
The idea of meaningful corporate prayer with 5000 people has some logistical problems.
It is hard for an old crusty died in the wool SB like me to admit it, but I think that meeting is history as it relates to attendance. As more old codgers like me become to lame to attend we will see even more decline.
Declining SBC annual meeting attendance is not news. I thought the contrast between SNA and the AM was interesting. Dave is right, of course, the AM has a purpose that works against it – reports, business, etc. There is a declining interest in the Cooperative Program, in denominationalism itself, and correspondingly to the events that are necessary for our cooperative work.
The pre-AM pastor’s conference is not much of a draw to me. Some are making points about the non-SB’s invited to the PC.
SNA is the only national level SBC program that has much success these days. The numbers, frankly, are astonishing to me. I plan to attend in Nashville (maybe, maybe not Columbus).
I don’t know that SNA is a megachurch thing, Adam, or that it caters to such. Half off if you bring 25 isn’t much of a bargain – $25 compared to $1,125.
And I have no idea how RF thinks he can tweak the AM to make it more attractive. Ed Young the Senior tried that a generation ago.
Double post…I’ll not charge Miller extra for that.
I will be attending the SBC in Columbus for three reasons. One our church faithfully supports the SBC and expects me to attend . Second i enjoy ever aspect of the convention especially seeing old friends and being encouraged by them. Third my kids enjoy the childcare and tge adventure of a new city. Yes there is a lot of negative abd things that could be better but i choose to overlook it
Would some of my wonderful SBC bruthren here tell me why 7,000+ among us will attend the SNA?
William-
My thoughts…
Why do some people drive a Camry while others a F-250 diesel? Both are of the same family (vehicles) & have similar functions (transportation), but there is one glaring difference–their basic function. The car’s basic function is economic & efficient transportation. The truck’s basic function is large payload transportation.
The forms of both have changed through R&D, but not their basic functions.
The SNA was never designed to function similar to the SBC mtg. Therefore it’s form is uniquely different. Why do more want to attend it (why do more seem to like it’s function/form)?
Value.
People invest in what adds value. My wife would hate & wouldn’t purchase a F-250 diesel to drive to work each day, and my father-in-law won’t get far trying to haul his 5th wheel with the Camry. Neither are bad forms of the transportation function. But both have a different basic functions & therefore different value quotients. SO it seems more are interested (value) the function/form of the SNA than the SBC mtg.
Both add value, but both do it differently.
The SBC mtg. needs not worry about how to compete with the SNA conference, but how to address her form while continuing to fulfill her basic function(assuming that remains) in a way that increases Value and therefore…sales.
“If you don’t, then you might as well sit alone, because you don’t have a clique to fit with.”
That’s generally why I don’t bother even with conferences. As long as I can get the material online afterward, why go? I might go somewhere if I thought I could find a clique to join that would be worthwhile. There is value in networking, which means that greater value is found in local associations and state conventions.
One big problem I and anyone from my church has had with attendance at the SBC in recent years is that it is usually the same week as VBS at our church. Combine that with a long distance to travel (Phoenix and Baltimore were both quite distant from my location, for example). Then combine that with the fact that 99% of the church has never been to an SBC ever and they have no clue whatsoever what it is about or why it would be worth going to and you start to see why SBC attendance from our church is virtually non-existent (the last time our church sent messengers was when my wife and I went back in 2009 to relatively close to home Louisville). I feel my situation described above is probably very similarly widespread across the convention nationwide
I love going to the SBC! We try to go every year. Why? Exhibit hall goodies are the best! I always learn new worship songs and often enjoy the preachers. I get to see that Transformation robot (from afar, mind you – it creeps me out) & visit with old seminary peeps. It’s where I go for my yearly health screening and Joe McKeever drawings. He remembers the kids from year to year. And there’s free chocolate! Oh, & the free 8×10 from the picture directory people.
There’s also the IMB booth. It’s always very moving. And the stories from both missions agencies are great, too. And I shant forget the Twitter feed during the business segments. (#Tribble #WileyDrakeAtMic6 …ha!)
Sure, I could do without the dog and pony show, but all those free books at early morning (free) breakfasts and luncheons! This deal actually saves us money!
The SBC – It’s a great place, & when we are there, we feel at home. It’s one place we can go and people understand our lives. Our passion. Our hurts. Our joys. Without even uttering a word.
This year we wont be able to attend. (church budget cuts) But when we can go back, we will eagerly make the trip.
How many people would be in attendance if you took away denominational employees, the seminary crowd, and associational missionaries?
Aaron,
A lot slimmer. The crowds at SBC annual meetings have really gone down, big time, as William says. When I first started going to these meetings, was in the days of the Conservative Resurgence. I was in Dallas and Atlanta when there were 40,000 plus in attendance. Those were some lively meetings!!
But, you’re right, Aaron…take away the DOM’s, SBC Entity people, and all the people, who are there to sell their wares, and the crowd would be a lot slimmer than it already is.
David
Why take those people out? They’re critical contributors to the networking of the national Convention and need the face time with their potential “customers”, too.
William,
My wife and I really enjoyed Baltimore, we hadn’t been to a convention since Orlando. We could tell the impact that Calvinism has had on the SBC the infralapsarians sat on one side and the supralapsarians sat on the other. We sat somewhere in the middle.
Blessings
wilbur
Did she sit in your lap?
William,
It took me a minute but I got it.
wilbur
Surely someone here os among the 7k who like the SNA Nashville. Why?
I always enjoyed the SBC AM but never made a 3 day sitfest out of it.
I commented above but maybe you missed seeing it. Or maybe you didn’t like it :).
I personally think it’s about what people value…and the 2 events don’t have to be held in offsetting balances.
To attend/miss one doesn’t mean that one is better/worse than the other-necessarily.
But without polling persons on a large scale, say, at those events, I am guessing you will not get sufficient answers.
William,
Some conferences are the new, cool, hip thing to do. That’s why they’re well attended.
David
Give it 5 to 10 years, and it will be other things.
David
I think you are right, David. These things have a cycle, a shelf life. One hopes for lasting, measurable results from the SNAs.
Phillip, no doubt which meeting to attend (or not attend) is a function of opportunity costs.
Or it could be that the idea of getting some training/inspiration/excitement/ideas for reaching the nations with the gospel is more appealing than a business meeting.
I think you all are forgetting that the least attended meetings at your local SBC church is likely your business meetings unless there is a fight afoot.
This is not a generational thing either – as I suspect old people do not enjoy the typical business meeting either. LOL.
As Miller pointed out – the SBC meeting is more than that and to those of us who go and enjoy the comradre and hallway conversations, the gatherings, relationship building, etc… make the effort to go – but no one (except maybe Wiley Drake and a few others 🙂 ) goes because they enjoy a 3 day business meeting.
Part of why LifeWay/the BSSB ended up reinventing itself and launching new initiatives and programs is the reality of what Mr. Worley said. One could observe that the most enduring, continuous “church” structure–the RCC–has attempted to stabilize by refusing to admit it changes while still, unfortunately, abandoning some or all of the faith aspects while emphasizing tradition and liturgical aspects (because they’re visible and therefore manageable.)
I think part of the issue with the Annual Meeting is that it is in its essence not a worship service–which is the main corporate activity believers ought to be relatively good at after 20 to 30 years–and is instead a business meeting. If we weren’t so good at business meetings after being Southern Baptists for a handful of decades, the Annual Meeting probably would be less off-putting to newcomers. But that’s just my rant. Not necessarily reality.
Maybe this (from Kevin Ezell blog on “Whatever It Takes”), specifically because it engages a congregation regarding the responsibility for planting churches:
“One of the early tenants of the SNA strategy was a belief that churches, not mission agencies, plant churches. Mission agencies come alongside the local church to help her fulfill her mission. We have ingrained in our team that our primary “customers” are local churches and the pastors of those churches. After all, without the local church there is no Southern Baptist Convention. “
I failed at my anchor kung fu. This link: http://www.namb.net/Ezellnambblog.aspx?id=12884912395&blogid=8590116761
And on the title of the specific blog: “Mobilizing Churches to Plant Churches”. The title I listed is for his blog site.
HELP ME DAVE!!!
As a younger SB, It seems to me that the annual convention is not attended as much anymore because more churches are realizing that by and large, what goes on in these meetings mostly irrelevant to them on a practical ministry level. In addition, I think it is a function of the “glory days” of the SBC and people are tired of hearing “war stories” of a bygone era. My wife and I attended Baltimore and it was interesting and somewhat fun, but honestly it was pretty boring. It was like being at a livestock auction (sorry for the colloquialism) ; kind of fun for a short time, but after that its just a lot of talk and paddle raising.
The end result of the lack of interest in the SBC will be the end of the larges mission force in Christian history without any real plan to replace it with something better. Some one or some group must really want this result badly, because it is becoming next to impossible to know a Southern Baptist minister from one part of a state to another part of a state. And it is even more difficult to know a Southern Baptist minister from another state except through a chance encounter through blogging, hardly a method for very many contacts. There is also the loss of the impact that 16-18,000,000 people in 40,000+ churches located throughout the nation can have on the national government. We are digging our own graves, when we need to be on the stretch to make our connections more tight, etc. Wake up, you fellows, you are about to lose not only your SBC, you are near to losing your religious liberty won by your predecessors and, in some cases, your ancestors. Want that to happen? Just keep on being indifferent to the SBC and the State Baptist Conventions and the local Associations, and you will soon find yourselves bereaved of all that you have held dear, including your freedoms, your family, your friends, etc. Wake up! Wake up!
“Some one or some group must really want this result badly, because it is becoming next to impossible to know a Southern Baptist minister from one part of a state to another part of a state.”
Or determining if it’s an SBC church or not! Most of the SBC church plants in my area have no recognizable affiliation with Southern Baptists on their church signs. You might be able to dig out a muted reference to BFM on their websites, but actual belief and practice is all over the map at the whims of their “lead” pastors (these young folks have it all figured out, you know). Their staff and members have little to no participation in Associations and State conventions. On the other hand, they enjoy the church planting funds that come their way from SBC. I fear that the “someone or some group” you are concerned about is a variety of both SBC and non-SBC influencers which are having their way in this once-great mission force. You and I know that the “bygone era” had its good points, too … a world of dying and hurting folks now call themselves Christian through the efforts and financial support of Southern Baptists.
Good words and warnings, Dr. Willingham. May they be heeded by the next generation.
Dr. Willingham and Max,
Excellent insight and a good word from both of you, on this fine day.
David
I never said I didn’t care about the SBC. Your sanctimonious hyperbolic sermonizing is symptomatic of why the SBC is in decline. Do you know why the youth groups are faltering? Probably not, unless you read it somewhere. I’ll tell you. Because arrogant, out of touch,geriatrics refuse to express some humanity and humility. The SBC convention and such events are full of them. Is it any wonder why nobody wants to attend? I am grateful for what Paige Patterson and others have accomplished in the past. But guess what? Christ is still on his throne and His will is being done, regardless of the SBC. Unless you think that the SBC is somehow the last bastion of truth? Landmarkist? Hmmmm. Judging by your doomsday prophecies I’d say its a safe bet. By the way, if I didn’t care about the SBC, I wouldn’t have bothered going to Baltimore. Nor would I have attended an SBC bible college (SWBTS), or seminary. I wouldn’t have spent thousands of my hard earned dollars at said schools, nor sat through Baptist History classes. I would not have spent years in ministry getting licensed/ordained at SBC churches. Nor would I even be reading this blog for that matter! I would be at some non-denominational, seeker-sensitive, hipster church where they serve more coffee than lost people. I have paid my dues so to speak, and I will continue to do so. But lets make one thing clear gentlemen; we serve Christ, not the SBC. If God so wills that I live for many more years, I will continue to serve Him, and will abandon the SBC in a heartbeat if I think for one second that it is doing more harm than good for the cause of Christ. Who do you really serve? I’m sick of arrogant Pharisees who sit around and talk about all they’ve done for the SBC and yet refuse to stoop so low as to actually get their pretty little PhD hands dirty.
BTW, I’m done with this blog… (yeah I know, “good riddance” right?) vanity of vanities…
geriatrics? I can see the problem here very well. Read your Bible young man and get some respect.
Read my Bible? I have respect for my elders if that is what you are referring to, but I do not respect men who condescend to others who have a differing opinion and act like arrogant jerks. As for geriatrics, I was referring to the old men who still run the SBC through cronyism and the good ol boy system. By the way, I’m not as young as you may think I am.
“Get some respect” again, need I say more? Take a look in the mirror brother.
Your geriatrics comment says it all.
You get what you give James. You start off with a deliberately inflammatory comment, and then you got butt hurt when someone responded in kind.
This blog is a wonderful place, and it will be your loss if you quit participating. But please don’t expect everyone to agree with you on everything. That never happens here.
James,
I apologize. I shouldn’t have responded so harshly to you. I just am very sensitive about the way our older preachers are treated.
Geriatrics! I resemble that remark!
Ok first, my initial comment was not intended to be inflammatory, it was merely an observation and an opinion based on several statements I heard at the recent SBC convention, and they were not from young people. Second, I did not get “butt hurt”, but I will not stand for anyone talking down to me, who does not know me personally. Yes, my last comment was inflammatory, I’ll give you that. Finally, I understand that not everyone is going to agree, it seems that everyone else here has the problem with that since they responded to vehemently to my opinion in the first place. Like the pot calling the kettle black. And yes, it may be my loss not participating.
Okay James, it’s your choice. I wish you would reconsider. We head butt around here, but we generally apologize and get over it and move on. As I said before, I apologize for offending you.
This is just a friendly observation, James, but for someone who doesn’t like people who talk down to him, you sure know how to talk down to other people.
Don’t know if I was the one intended by the talking down remark, but if I was please know that I am not conscious of having any such intent of doing so. And I am geriatric (being 74 years old). And what I wrote is based on 57 years of experience as a Christian and Southern Baptist minister as well as a Baptist Historian (if I may call myself such, having written various items that were published in a few venues as well as having served as chairman of the historical committees of the Sandy Creek Baptist Association and the Baptist State Convention of North Carolina and have done 6 years of research, intensive research, in church history, especially Baptist, as well as writing a master’s thesis in intellectual history on a belief (ministerial qualifications, education and/or illumination) and its effect on behavior over a hundred years. Personal attacks are not something I indulge in. Period. I try to address the issues only.