William Thornton is the inimitable SBC Plodder.
“No one goes to the convention anymore,” laments some of the brethren who have been around long enough to remember the sardine days where 20,000, 30,000, and 40,000 messengers could pack into a meeting venue.
2010 Orlando 11,070
2011 Phoenix 4,814
2012 New Orleans 7,814
2013 Houston 5,103
2014 Baltimore 5,294
Toss out Orlando, the attendance bump for which we can thank Mickey Mouse. Look askance at New Orleans because it’s a nice venue with the crawfish, beignets, and all that. That leaves SBC attendance in the 5k range. Pretty low for a denomination where millions gather each Lord’s Day to worship in almost 50,000 churches.
Consider this: The North American Mission Board’s SEND NORTH AMERICA conference scheduled for this summer already has over 7,200 registrations. Toss out maybe a couple of hundred unpaid registrations and that is 7,000 registrants paying $129 per person (early registrants paid $89) to attend.
The SBC annual meeting costs zip, only food, transportation, and lodging, nothing to attend.
So, why would seven thousand Southern Baptists pay good money to attend an SNA conference when the SBC meeting is free?
There are a lot of reasons why in 2015 Southern Baptists aren’t that keen to attend the SBC annual meeing and slap backs, glad hand, and engage in the annual bragfest with old friends.
- It’s boring.
- There’s nothing much going on these days.
- Folks don’t see much value in attending.
- Nothing much will change in the old ship SBC.
- Neither my presence, my vote, nor my voice count for much in the SBC.
- Decisions are pre-made by an oligarchy of SBC grandees and conventions just ratify them.
Factor in the reality that a vocal segment of SBCers don’t really like NAMB and the attendance figures are indeed impressive.
I know I’m odd, but I enjoy the SBC. It’s a chance to fellowship face to face with a lot of guys I only interact with online during the year. Of course, that also means I actually HAVE to interact with a few of the knuckleheads here face to face (did I say that outloud?). The SBC is what it is – a business meeting. It can be improved, but we can’t make it what it’s not to bring in a crowd. Obviously, if you want higher attendance, have the thing in Orlando, New Orleans, probably Atlanta, perhaps Charlotte –… Read more »
Hey, Charlotte is just down the road. I might come if it’s in Charlotte!
Actually the fellowship does sound appealing. There are some guys I’d like to meet.
By the way, I was pleasantly surprised at attendance at Baltimore last year. Yes, it was an election year. But it was a city out of the SBC wheelhouse – long way from Texas/OK etc.
I was expecting something more in the 4000 range. That we were bigger than Houston was something I found shocking.
For me, the pastor’s conference makes the SBC meeting more attractive. Some of the auxiliary activities that are popping up help motivate me to attend as well. I enjoy attending.
To be perfectly honest, and maybe this is a marker of my increasing age, but I used to like the pastor’s conference better than I have in recent years.
Depends on the speaker. I skipped out on some. Some were awful. Some preached sermons I had heard them preach before. And a couple were really good. H.B. Charles is my favorite preacher in the SBC right now.
H.B. Charles is a great preacher. He is also old school, that’s why I like him.
Dave,
I’m only 44 but give me the old time preachers any day. I went to some of the pastor’s conference in Houston. I wasn’t impressed.
We have lots of great preachers in the SBC but everyone seems to want the new cool hip preachers.
I want to listen to preachers who simply exegete Scripture. Don’t care if they are hip, Old, Young, Southern Baptist, Acts 29, or some independent church on Saturn. Just give me the guys who exegete the text.
That’s cool Tyler. You have ever right to your preferences, and like you I prefer to hear the scriptures exegeted. I also prefer the old school method of preaching.
Because you mentioned the SNA event specifically, I am going to sound off for a moment. Not because anyone is listening, but because it will make me feel better. I am not planning to attend the SNA event in August. It was initially on my calendar, but when time came to buy a ticket, I opted out. I got an email in early January telling me that I could buy a ticket for $99. Also in that email, I was told that if I have a group of 25 or more, we could buy tickets for $45 each. The church… Read more »
What if small-church members used social media, or maybe even an app, to create a group for purposes of ticket discounts? Find 24 other folks who want to go to the same event and sign up together. Would that work? Would there be anything unethical about it?
According to the email Participants have to be from the same church to get the discount referenced.
Orlando 2010 was the year of the Great Commission Resurgence report, so I’d say a minor controversy was as big a reason there as Mouse. Which goes to show that some of your thinking is right — people come when they think it’s important to come.
But GCR also marked a generational shift from CR to the Happy Calvinists. They seem to severely discount the idea that a group of believers and the Holy Spirit can make some decisions *better* than professionals. (And for generational reasons, I think, not necessarily theological reasons.)
I’m having trouble following this comment?
It’s easy to understand, Tarheel. Calvinists are incapable of relying on the Holy Spirit…
…or that’s a red herring and it has nothing to do with attendance at the SBC Annual Meeting. You pick.
Dear Greg: Your remark must have been meant in good humor, because I have quite a few books in my library on the Holy Spirit. Many of them written by Calvinists and every one of them shows or displays or represents that he is completely dependent upon the Holy Spirit for the accomplishment of any good. You must know that our Founding Fathers, Roger Williams, Dr. John Clarke, William Screven, Richard Furman, Silas and Jesse Mercer, Isaac Backus, John Hart, Shubal Stearns, Daniel Marshall, Samuel Harris, John Leland, John Taylor, John Gano, Luther Rice, William B. Johnson, Basil Manley, Sr.,… Read more »
🙂
Greg,
That’s how I took it too – but wanted to make sure I was understanding his implication correctly before I responded – so I asked for clarification.
In the meantime I’ve decided that no matter the intent of the implication – I’m going to treat it as a red herring – I think that’ll probably be best.
Tarheel, Greg –
See my long-ish reply below. I tend to think of the current group as “Happy Calvinists,” because they’re the newest participants. But it’s probably more fair to say we currently have a “Late Boomer/Early GenX coalition.”
Whatever the label, the current generation isn’t as sold on congregational meetings, and the SBC operates like a big congregational meeting.
That’s not theology as much as age; 9Marks holds member meetings very highly.
Jon: I agree with your deeper analysis. I honestly do not believe that the Calvinist tag–Happy or otherwise–led to any kind of useful conclusions, hence my use of the term “red herring”. In a post-modern culture we see rejection of authority, mass-customization of belief, and rejection of bureaucratic–i.e. “military structured”–organizations as kind of “megatrends” (to borrow from John Naisbitt). Add to that the immediacy of online interactions–both social and less expensive traditional media–and an unwillingness to change to support influence by the current generation and you have an opportunity for “slow growth” (if not demise) over time. In discussions on… Read more »
The problem with the user experience of Southern Baptists is that the Convention is an extra-biblical structure, one borrowed from Masonry and the federal government. There is some scriptural justification for the local association, but one will search long and hard to find any justification for State Conventions and the Southern Baptist Convention followed by the Boards for the various institutions as well as the other organizations. This is not much debated or discussed today, but it was in the 1800s. The Landmarkers and their setbacks among Southern Baptists might explain why the discussion over the legitimacy of the conventions… Read more »
Sorry, it might read cryptically. I mean to say that 2010 was different from the following conventions, in that it struck a chord with two different groups. It drew people who were broadly interested in the Convention staying relevant. It also drew younger people who, at the time, wanted to see not just relevance, but a generational change. It was the passing of the torch from the Charles Stanleys of SBC-life to the Johnny Hunts. A side effect of the generational change, however, is that this newer group doesn’t believe as strongly in the ‘rightness’ of congregational meetings. If you look at a… Read more »
To put it another way, Convention attendance is a combination of people who think ‘what’ we do is important, as well as the ‘how.’
We’re in a time where the average Baptist is more concerned with ‘what’ than ‘how.’
As practical as I am, I think ‘how’ explains some of the difference between us and the exhaustion of the Protestant mainline.
William,
Thanks for your article, I actually found it encouraging. I mean the fact that more people will pay good money to go to a conference in support of missions than they will to sit through a 2-3 day business meeting is awesome.
In answer to your question, if I had a $1000 dollar conference budget, I would spend it going to the E.K. Bailey Expository Preaching Conference in Dallas, TX.
William, We have approx. 3,600 SBC churches in AL. In Cullman County (80,000 people) we have 126 SBC ‘churches’. 90% of them have bi-vocational pastors. Not because they do not want a full time vocational pastor, but, because they are in persistent decline and do not have the funds to support one. Dr. Hawsey, President of Wallace State Univ. and a believer, invited me to put together a Forum to equip and encourage pastors and church leaders. I did that. I invited Micah Fries to join me in the initial presentation. We invited 350+ pastors via direct mail and phone… Read more »
Tom:
Did you survey the churches to determine which attitudes they displayed? Or are you summarizing what you believe they felt?
Tom,
I sat across from Micah for breakfast this morning and I mentioned your post. First time to meet him, he has good insight and it would be of value to hear more from him.
“It’s boring. There’s nothing much going on these days. Folks don’t see much value in attending. Nothing much will change in the old ship SBC. Neither my presence, my vote, nor my voice count for much in the SBC. Decisions are pre-made by an oligarchy of SBC grandees and conventions just ratify them” I think these are good points. I would absolutely go to one of the meetings if it were close by, but to be honest, I would prefer to spend money to go to something like T4G. I think if some of these weak points mentioned above would… Read more »
Tis cut and dried. The Awakening of prayer to pray for an Awakening with the knowledge of the theology which produces such visitations or, rather, is blessed of God to such a wonder. Still it is also true that the neglect of the SBC and the state conventions, until something better and more biblical is found and in operation, will destroy the greatest mission force in history and cost us our freedom as the numbers do count in the seats of government. But we need the small group mentality of the African Americans, the mentality and practice of protest, marches,… Read more »
I’ve been to a few…. it is a business meeting with an attempt at flare. It worked in the absence of technology. Those days are gone.
Scrap the annual convention theatrics at a physical location, …go digital, save money. Get creative with regional events, encourage planting churches and helping churches,…then the thousands of churches and millions of attendees will get involved, make better use of money, and time.
Ditto
This would be a difficult thing to quantify, but let’s say the costs associated with the annual meeting are 6-7 million dollars. This is being paid for, in one way or another, by the folks in the pew. Is there 6-7 million dollars of value coming out of the annual meeting? Are there any metrics to suggest that anything improves nationwide after the SBC (church attendance, giving, church planting, IMB appications, etc).
That is right Bill,…the money is definitely being spent, along with things in the local market. All money out of the evangelists (all believers) pockets,….and just for business.
Technology is the way forward to decrease cost. In order for that to occur, …the SBC would need to change its bylaws, and operating policy/procedures in order to make this happen. That is probably the most difficult obstacle and disruptive activity to then begin to form a change to conducting business digitally.
I have consistently gone to the SBC each June for over 35-years because I feel a kinship to the Southern Baptist family. I meet old friends and have made new friends there. I see it as a large family gathering. I value the relationships that I’ve made in college, seminary, ministry and fostering those relationships at the SBC. I care about the future of the SBC. That is why I will be there in June.
Tyler
Hang with T4G. It is refreshing and well…. You know
Bill
Romans 5:1
Yea, but I still would like to get the point to where I know without a doubt that the SBC meetings would definitely be worth the time and money. I love the SBC and want to make sure I’m doing my part. But I greatly benefit from T4G. Wouldn’t it be awesome if a SBC meeting happened during SBC meeting? 😀
*Happened during T4G. Sorry haha
I have seriously considered not going to SBC meetings anymore for a lot of the reasons that you mention, William. I used to really enjoy the Pastor’s Conferences…..they used to really pull me in. But, I haven’t cared much for them in the last few years. In fact, I have missed most of the Pastor’s Conferences in the last 5 years….preferring to travel on that day, or else, just sitting in on one or two of the sermons, and doing other things during the rest of the time, like walking around the booths with my wife, or fellowshipping with people… Read more »
David, perhaps you should just go and camp out at a nearby coffee shop to pray for all those nonspiritual folks over at the convention center. I was going to suggest you prop your feet up at Barley’s Brewing Company near the convention, but it may be overrun with Southern Baptists by the time you get there. ;>)
Max,
Sadly, your comment about the bars and pubs being full of Southern Baptists during the convention might be correct.
David
Oh, David, you need to be more culturally-relevant! Don’t you know that pub ministry is an excellent way to untap your faith?!
All the reasons you listed are valid. For me, I tend to attend conferences with an hour, of a few hours of where I live, and that have some ministry focus in an area I feel will help our church. The thing that Dave Mentions about hallways is DEFINITELY a high point of conferences, but I don’t need to go to a national conference to do that, At a more regional conference, there’s actually a chance of me having contact outside the conference with some of those people. However, distance is not the only factor…I did not attend the SBC… Read more »
Dr. Floyd mentioned that one of the most important issues facing the Southern Baptist convention today was the lack of attendance at the annual meeting – he made A talking point in his candidacy (in his statement to Baptist press) – so William, it appears that our president is on it!
I wonder what you other guys think of Floyd’s assesment?
I would say: It’s NOT one of the most important things. A symptom of something important, maybe, but that’s it.
I stated exactly what you just said when he answered that way.
A symptom of something, possibly. Important? Possibly not.
I know I’m definitely in the minority on this thought, but I kinda see the lack of attendance as good thing that’s happening in churches. Churches seem to be more interested in conferences such as ETS, 9 Marks, and Pastor Conferences which I see as a very good thing. I think if the SBC meetings want more people to come, then there probably should be less politics, less of the “good ol boy” system, and maybe more transparency. I could be wrong, but just a thought.
You mean we should know the salaries of the people we hire and appoint to leadership positions?
That’s crazy-talk!!!
So, Tyler, what I’m hearing from you is that it’s more important to attend CALVINIST meetings?
SMH
David
9 Marks is the ONLY one of those that is distinctly Calvinist. You anti-Calvinists are so phobic it is like a disease sometimes, David.
umm…above, Tyler mentioned T4G, as well.
Also, in the past few years, our SBC Pastor’s Conferences have had a very strong Calvinist theme to them.
David
Perhaps part of the issue of low attendance is that the calvinists don’t think the non-calvinist pastors are worth hearing…and the non-calvinists don’t think the calvinist pastors are worth hearing…
…and maybe those who are fine with hearing from either kind of pastor don’t want to come and hear both sides complaining….????
For most of us, the whole world does not revolve around whether someone is a Calvinist or not a Calvinist. For some, that is the only thing that matters, obviously, but I think that is not true for most Southern Baptists.
Dave,
I wish it really didn’t matter if someone was a Calvinist, or just a plain old, Non Calvinist Baptist. I really wish it didn’t matter.
David
Even the Jacksonville Pastor’s Conference had quite a few Calvinists this year. If they up the percentage a bit more I may consider attending next time. 😉
Volfan,
Calvinist Theme? Would you elaborate? Do you mean speakers tgat happened to be, or were the 5 points taught from the platform – what?
Dave,
Just take a look at this years line up at the Pastor’s Conference.
http://www.sbcpc.net/
David
Volfan,
Ok, I looked – still not seeing your point.
Seriously? Russell Moore, David Platt, HB Charles, Vance Pittman, James McDonald, JD Grear, Paul Tripp….
Now I’m curious too. Is Calvinism being taught at the Pastor’s conference?
“Seriously? Russell Moore, David Platt, HB Charles, Vance Pittman, James McDonald, JD Grear, Paul Tripp….”
…were invited to speak by a president who doesn’t harbor Calvinistic tendencies. I can’t find enough on the two vice-presidents at first glance to tell either way. They aren’t big names in either camp that I’ve seen. It seems that the three are motivated more by pastoral concerns than soteriological ones. I think they just invited who they thought were good pastoral speakers. Perhaps you could send in some suggestions for next year of non-Calvinists who would be willing to speak on pastoral matters.
MacDonald and Gaines should not be on that list.
Vance Pittman is a calvinist? Didn’t know that.
So you object to any Calvinist leaning speakers being on the agenda at all?
I’d understand that except I highly doubt any of the dudes you mentioned will be preaching:
” I’m predestined to be a Calvinist and so are you – that is if you’re elect.” Or anything like that.
It certainly was not that way in Baltimore – as matter fact the way I remember most of the speakers were not Calvinists.
There’s no amount of evidence that will prove to anti-Calvinists that Calvinism is not at the root of everything in the SBC.
MacDonald should not be on that list.
We need to get off the celebrity system.
It isn’t just that MacDonald is a celebrity. Frankly they practically all are in that lineup. It’s that MacDonald thinks SBC polity is from Satan. And Gaines. For crying out loud, Gaines shielded a child molester. He should be in jail, not preaching to SBC pastors. What are people thinking?
I just want to say that I love and appreciate my Calvinist and Arminian Brothers and Sisters in Christ, even though I do oppose systems of philosophy…and even though I do see a Calvinist takeover of the SBC, which makes me think that Non Calvinists in the SBC will be asked to give but have no real seat at the table. I think some Calvinists are militant enough about their Calvinism to push and marginalize anyone, who doesn’t adhere to the Calvinist system in some way.
David
Oh brother…
Let me reword that a little bit….from a perspective you obviously miss
_____
…and even though I do see an effort to hold onto the established anti Calvinist power groups of the SBC of , power groups that have for many years have insisted that Calvinists in the SBC give but have no real seat at the table, be hardly ever seen and certainly never heard. In fact, have seen some anti Calvinists be so militant about their Anti Calvinism so as to push and marginalize anyone, who doesn’t adhere to the Anti Calvinist system.
Let’s make a deal, would our non-Calvinist brethren be willing to jettison Gaines if a Calvinist was also jettisoned?
LOL…Bill Mac – Lets make a deal!
I am going to pretend like that comment was a joke because I honestly can’t see how one would jump to such a conclusion by my comments.
I don’t think it means that there is some conspiracy given that the president of the Pastor’s Conference, pastor Willy Rice, is hardly a straight-up Calvinist.
https://vimeo.com/85169945
JD Greear may be the only non entity head calvinist on that list – I’m not sure though cause I don’t know much about the Others.
Additionally – Steven Gaines more than balances any “undue calvinist influence” – he’s a very vocal anti calvinist.
I wouldn’t be motivated to go unless there were some workshop/breakout small group sessions on theology and practical ministry. Large group motivational preaching, business, and agency booths aren’t enough, for me at least.
Could it be that the letdown is a result of having been subjected to an intense dialectic for over 30 years? Once the change was accomplished, the same old, same old prevailed, and, funny or not, the new faces leading had some of the same folks from the other side working for them. Could it be that outside forces really run this denomination as they, apparently, do others? The real answer to the situation is an Awakening, not something that a preacher can readily sport as the mark of his ministry; it is a work of God, an act which… Read more »
William T
I wish you were wrong but fear you are correct. I was a in attendance at those 45,000 meeting venues. It is my opinion, while some of those days were very troubling,what was accomplished (CR) was necessary to float the SBC boat.
At any rate WELL SAID.
D. L. Payton,
I was also one of the 45,000 messengers at the Dallas, TX SBC during the height of the Conservative Resurgence.
I think I saw you there!
Nothing like a sweeping controversy to get a crowd of Baptists, or anyone else.
But I do believe the Conservative Resurgence was completely justified and correct. Thank God our SBC is on a solid footing with the inerrancy of God’s inspired Word, the Bible.
David R. Brumbelow
David
Amen my brother
Declining SBC annual meeting attendance is not news. I thought the contrast between SNA and the AM was interesting. Dave is right, of course, the AM has a purpose that works against it – reports, business, etc. There is a declining interest in the Cooperative Program, in denominationalism itself, and correspondingly to the events that are necessary for our cooperative work. The pre-AM pastor’s conference is not much of a draw to me. Some are making points about the non-SB’s invited to the PC. SNA is the only national level SBC program that has much success these days. The numbers,… Read more »
Best guess–
RF hopes to shorten the business times, cut to no more than 1 opportunity for motions from the floor (eliminate that entirely if possible,) add more prayer times (without commenting one or the other way on where they fit with Matthew 6,) and whatever else is necessary to reduce anything that might look “bad” at the SBC. Especially anything that presents the opportunity for someone to voice a contrary opinion.
Matthew 6 prohibits corporate prayer?
no, but Matthew 6 certainly prohibits praying for the sake of having other people seeing you praying. Or, more specifically, points out that if we pray with the desire that other people hear us, then that’s what we get. Other people to hear us. Fixing whatever ails the SBC won’t come from making a big to-do about prayers from the platform at the convention. Nor will it come from being known as a convention for praying. Now, whether or not the added prayer times on the platform of the SBC are coming from hearts of prayer or those with a… Read more »
Doug
RF procedure, in my opinion, will not accomplish the goal. It has been my experience that the meeting hall fills up more during business and empties during other agenda.
The idea of meaningful corporate prayer with 5000 people has some logistical problems.
It is hard for an old crusty died in the wool SB like me to admit it, but I think that meeting is history as it relates to attendance. As more old codgers like me become to lame to attend we will see even more decline.
Declining SBC annual meeting attendance is not news. I thought the contrast between SNA and the AM was interesting. Dave is right, of course, the AM has a purpose that works against it – reports, business, etc. There is a declining interest in the Cooperative Program, in denominationalism itself, and correspondingly to the events that are necessary for our cooperative work. The pre-AM pastor’s conference is not much of a draw to me. Some are making points about the non-SB’s invited to the PC. SNA is the only national level SBC program that has much success these days. The numbers,… Read more »
Double post…I’ll not charge Miller extra for that.
I will be attending the SBC in Columbus for three reasons. One our church faithfully supports the SBC and expects me to attend . Second i enjoy ever aspect of the convention especially seeing old friends and being encouraged by them. Third my kids enjoy the childcare and tge adventure of a new city. Yes there is a lot of negative abd things that could be better but i choose to overlook it
Would some of my wonderful SBC bruthren here tell me why 7,000+ among us will attend the SNA?
William- My thoughts… Why do some people drive a Camry while others a F-250 diesel? Both are of the same family (vehicles) & have similar functions (transportation), but there is one glaring difference–their basic function. The car’s basic function is economic & efficient transportation. The truck’s basic function is large payload transportation. The forms of both have changed through R&D, but not their basic functions. The SNA was never designed to function similar to the SBC mtg. Therefore it’s form is uniquely different. Why do more want to attend it (why do more seem to like it’s function/form)? Value. People… Read more »
“If you don’t, then you might as well sit alone, because you don’t have a clique to fit with.”
That’s generally why I don’t bother even with conferences. As long as I can get the material online afterward, why go? I might go somewhere if I thought I could find a clique to join that would be worthwhile. There is value in networking, which means that greater value is found in local associations and state conventions.
One big problem I and anyone from my church has had with attendance at the SBC in recent years is that it is usually the same week as VBS at our church. Combine that with a long distance to travel (Phoenix and Baltimore were both quite distant from my location, for example). Then combine that with the fact that 99% of the church has never been to an SBC ever and they have no clue whatsoever what it is about or why it would be worth going to and you start to see why SBC attendance from our church is… Read more »
I love going to the SBC! We try to go every year. Why? Exhibit hall goodies are the best! I always learn new worship songs and often enjoy the preachers. I get to see that Transformation robot (from afar, mind you – it creeps me out) & visit with old seminary peeps. It’s where I go for my yearly health screening and Joe McKeever drawings. He remembers the kids from year to year. And there’s free chocolate! Oh, & the free 8×10 from the picture directory people. There’s also the IMB booth. It’s always very moving. And the stories from… Read more »
How many people would be in attendance if you took away denominational employees, the seminary crowd, and associational missionaries?
Aaron,
A lot slimmer. The crowds at SBC annual meetings have really gone down, big time, as William says. When I first started going to these meetings, was in the days of the Conservative Resurgence. I was in Dallas and Atlanta when there were 40,000 plus in attendance. Those were some lively meetings!!
But, you’re right, Aaron…take away the DOM’s, SBC Entity people, and all the people, who are there to sell their wares, and the crowd would be a lot slimmer than it already is.
David
Why take those people out? They’re critical contributors to the networking of the national Convention and need the face time with their potential “customers”, too.
William,
My wife and I really enjoyed Baltimore, we hadn’t been to a convention since Orlando. We could tell the impact that Calvinism has had on the SBC the infralapsarians sat on one side and the supralapsarians sat on the other. We sat somewhere in the middle.
Blessings
wilbur
Did she sit in your lap?
William,
It took me a minute but I got it.
wilbur
Surely someone here os among the 7k who like the SNA Nashville. Why?
I always enjoyed the SBC AM but never made a 3 day sitfest out of it.
I commented above but maybe you missed seeing it. Or maybe you didn’t like it :).
I personally think it’s about what people value…and the 2 events don’t have to be held in offsetting balances.
To attend/miss one doesn’t mean that one is better/worse than the other-necessarily.
But without polling persons on a large scale, say, at those events, I am guessing you will not get sufficient answers.
William,
Some conferences are the new, cool, hip thing to do. That’s why they’re well attended.
David
Give it 5 to 10 years, and it will be other things.
David
I think you are right, David. These things have a cycle, a shelf life. One hopes for lasting, measurable results from the SNAs.
Phillip, no doubt which meeting to attend (or not attend) is a function of opportunity costs.
Or it could be that the idea of getting some training/inspiration/excitement/ideas for reaching the nations with the gospel is more appealing than a business meeting. I think you all are forgetting that the least attended meetings at your local SBC church is likely your business meetings unless there is a fight afoot. This is not a generational thing either – as I suspect old people do not enjoy the typical business meeting either. LOL. As Miller pointed out – the SBC meeting is more than that and to those of us who go and enjoy the comradre and hallway conversations,… Read more »
Part of why LifeWay/the BSSB ended up reinventing itself and launching new initiatives and programs is the reality of what Mr. Worley said. One could observe that the most enduring, continuous “church” structure–the RCC–has attempted to stabilize by refusing to admit it changes while still, unfortunately, abandoning some or all of the faith aspects while emphasizing tradition and liturgical aspects (because they’re visible and therefore manageable.) I think part of the issue with the Annual Meeting is that it is in its essence not a worship service–which is the main corporate activity believers ought to be relatively good at after… Read more »
Maybe this (from Kevin Ezell blog on “Whatever It Takes”), specifically because it engages a congregation regarding the responsibility for planting churches:
“One of the early tenants of the SNA strategy was a belief that churches, not mission agencies, plant churches. Mission agencies come alongside the local church to help her fulfill her mission. We have ingrained in our team that our primary “customers” are local churches and the pastors of those churches. After all, without the local church there is no Southern Baptist Convention. “
I failed at my anchor kung fu. This link: http://www.namb.net/Ezellnambblog.aspx?id=12884912395&blogid=8590116761
And on the title of the specific blog: “Mobilizing Churches to Plant Churches”. The title I listed is for his blog site.
HELP ME DAVE!!!
As a younger SB, It seems to me that the annual convention is not attended as much anymore because more churches are realizing that by and large, what goes on in these meetings mostly irrelevant to them on a practical ministry level. In addition, I think it is a function of the “glory days” of the SBC and people are tired of hearing “war stories” of a bygone era. My wife and I attended Baltimore and it was interesting and somewhat fun, but honestly it was pretty boring. It was like being at a livestock auction (sorry for the colloquialism)… Read more »
The end result of the lack of interest in the SBC will be the end of the larges mission force in Christian history without any real plan to replace it with something better. Some one or some group must really want this result badly, because it is becoming next to impossible to know a Southern Baptist minister from one part of a state to another part of a state. And it is even more difficult to know a Southern Baptist minister from another state except through a chance encounter through blogging, hardly a method for very many contacts. There is… Read more »
“Some one or some group must really want this result badly, because it is becoming next to impossible to know a Southern Baptist minister from one part of a state to another part of a state.” Or determining if it’s an SBC church or not! Most of the SBC church plants in my area have no recognizable affiliation with Southern Baptists on their church signs. You might be able to dig out a muted reference to BFM on their websites, but actual belief and practice is all over the map at the whims of their “lead” pastors (these young folks… Read more »
Dr. Willingham and Max,
Excellent insight and a good word from both of you, on this fine day.
David
I never said I didn’t care about the SBC. Your sanctimonious hyperbolic sermonizing is symptomatic of why the SBC is in decline. Do you know why the youth groups are faltering? Probably not, unless you read it somewhere. I’ll tell you. Because arrogant, out of touch,geriatrics refuse to express some humanity and humility. The SBC convention and such events are full of them. Is it any wonder why nobody wants to attend? I am grateful for what Paige Patterson and others have accomplished in the past. But guess what? Christ is still on his throne and His will is being… Read more »
BTW, I’m done with this blog… (yeah I know, “good riddance” right?) vanity of vanities…
geriatrics? I can see the problem here very well. Read your Bible young man and get some respect.
Read my Bible? I have respect for my elders if that is what you are referring to, but I do not respect men who condescend to others who have a differing opinion and act like arrogant jerks. As for geriatrics, I was referring to the old men who still run the SBC through cronyism and the good ol boy system. By the way, I’m not as young as you may think I am.
“Get some respect” again, need I say more? Take a look in the mirror brother.
Your geriatrics comment says it all.
You get what you give James. You start off with a deliberately inflammatory comment, and then you got butt hurt when someone responded in kind.
This blog is a wonderful place, and it will be your loss if you quit participating. But please don’t expect everyone to agree with you on everything. That never happens here.
James,
I apologize. I shouldn’t have responded so harshly to you. I just am very sensitive about the way our older preachers are treated.
Geriatrics! I resemble that remark!
Ok first, my initial comment was not intended to be inflammatory, it was merely an observation and an opinion based on several statements I heard at the recent SBC convention, and they were not from young people. Second, I did not get “butt hurt”, but I will not stand for anyone talking down to me, who does not know me personally. Yes, my last comment was inflammatory, I’ll give you that. Finally, I understand that not everyone is going to agree, it seems that everyone else here has the problem with that since they responded to vehemently to my opinion… Read more »
Okay James, it’s your choice. I wish you would reconsider. We head butt around here, but we generally apologize and get over it and move on. As I said before, I apologize for offending you.
This is just a friendly observation, James, but for someone who doesn’t like people who talk down to him, you sure know how to talk down to other people.
Don’t know if I was the one intended by the talking down remark, but if I was please know that I am not conscious of having any such intent of doing so. And I am geriatric (being 74 years old). And what I wrote is based on 57 years of experience as a Christian and Southern Baptist minister as well as a Baptist Historian (if I may call myself such, having written various items that were published in a few venues as well as having served as chairman of the historical committees of the Sandy Creek Baptist Association and the… Read more »