(I’m paraphrasing) (I think and hope I got most of my note back) GREAT MESSAGE!
Luke 22:24-34
There is a power in the church to overcome whatever it is that is in the world.
Jesus has announced his betrayal and his coming death. But now, here he warns them of the changes that are coming. But he still evidences no fear of the future.
The culture around us is changing.
Baptism was a Bible Belt Bar Mitzvah – you needed a Christian identity to be part of the culture. The culture has changed and we are not longer at the center.
Our temptation is to lack confidence and to embrace fear.
Fear shows up in panic, in anger, but Jesus shows us the antidote – the gospel of the kingdom of Jesus Christ.
We need not fear because the kingdom reframes our future.
Just after the Lord’s Supper, the disciples have a petty dispute over who is the greatest. They were over–confident. NO! They had too LITTLE confidence! They were afraid. Seeking evidence of who is going to betray Jesus and seeking greatness.
“I’m the greatest – but it’s all of God.”
Jesus redefines greatness for them. He reframes everything. He was the greatest but he was serving them. I am not talking about my greatness – I have nothing to prove. I know what my mission is and what my future is. I am simply serving. I give you a kingdom and you will rule snad reign with me in my glorious kingdom. This argument proves you don’t understand that.
Fear and self-advancement prove you don’t understand the kingdom.
Jesus tells them not to argue about greatness because they have eternity to rule and reign with him. This world is not the ultimate. This is an internship for the kingdom.
You are acting like the Gentiles, lording it over one another. stop it!
Our fights and quarrels are about people who want attention, who want to matter, who want power. Theistic social Darwinism. The meanest eviscerate everyone else!
Relax — you’ve got trillions of years to worship Jesus. You don’t have to worry about your standing today!
Understanding this frees us to understand the culture around us.
“You are on the wrong side of history.”
We started on the wrong side of history! The Roman empire. The Cross. The Roman Empire is dead and Jesus is feeling fine!
If you feel as though you are losing and the culture is leaving you behind, you tend to become like the culture you are critiquing. Who’s up. Who’s down. Who’s winning. Who’s losing.
God may not be as interested in getting America in line iwth the church as he is in getting the church out of line with America! (WOW!)
Are we going to be the people who are going to outdo one another in loving and serving one another?
Why do you care about that down syndrome child? We say, “He’s a joint heir with Christ and a future ruler of the universe!”
We don’t fear because the gospel reframes our mission.
Satan has asked to sift you like wheat. Peter says, “I’m ready to fight.” Satan doesn’t want to kill Peter. He wants to keep him alive and away from the cross.
If you are discouraged by hard ministries or family situations. Though Satan has asked to sifted you – I have prayed for you (Jesus says). Peter thinks the answer is a better armed Peter. Jesus says the answer to Peter’s problem is JESUS!
I have prayed for you that you will remain strong!
Jesus isn’t afraid of the guards or the jury. He knows the future!
Apart from Jesus we are nothing. But with Jesus, why be afraid?
We must not pine for some day in the past.
Mayberry leads to hell as surely as Gomorrah did. Our message is not, “let’s return to a time when people behaved better.” OUr message is “you must be born again.
We have a refugee crisis coming. It is the refugee crisis from the sexual revolution. Those who simply scream at sinners without an offer of mercy through repentance and faith will not be able to minister to those people.
Jesus looked to the future and told him to strengthen those around him.
The future leaders of Christianity are likely drunks today. Paul. Augustine. CS Lewis.
We need to have the courage to engage culture without fear and handwringing and anger. When we panic in fear we are saying to God, “I deserve a better mission field than you are giving.
It does not take one bit more gospel to save those who are protesting us today than it took to save us! It is only pride and heresy to say differently.
We need a Southern Baptist Convention with more tattoos. We need tragic, dark backstories with skulls, satanic pentagrams, Isis tattoos; that demonstrate a hard, lost life in the past. This is the church.
Let’s crucify our self-righteousness.
Let’s crucify our infighting.
Don’t fear the mission field.
This one is worth finding the video and watching later if you weren’t here to hear it.
Thanks Dave, sounds like a good one. Heaven and Earth will pass away but….
Doug, it was fantastic! A call to living confidently even as the world turns away. Strong stuff!
You know, I’ve been reading some of the sermon quips from Dr. Russell Moore. It sounds like he was hitting on all cylinders on all the topics that he usually talks about….race, culture is changing, don’t go back to the false, legalistic, culture Christianity of the South, where people were just told to behave better, where getting baptized was just our Jewish, Bar Mitzah, or a rite into adulthood….that now, we must preach the Gospel, instead.
But, I think a lot of people got into “behaving better” due to the Gospel being preached so much, and so many people being saved, in the South….that the Church affected the culture so much that we even had Blue laws, and even lost people tried to act better, and people didn’t lock their doors at night, and nobody cut their grass on Sunday. So, the fact that SO MANY people were saved in the South led to the lost crowd feeling like they had to join a Church, and “behave.” In order to fit in, a lot of people in the South adopted the Judeo-Christian ethics, went to Church, and tried to, at least, “LOOK” like a Christian.
But, the Gospel was being preached, and is being preached in the South. And, many people are getting saved, in the South. And yes, there are many people, on our church rolls, who are not saved. They just joined the church for whatever reason. But, Dr. Moore almost makes it sound like the Church in the South is just full of religious, legalistic people, who only come to Church, because it’s the cultural thing to do…and, of course, now, they’re falling out of Church.
Maybe we should look at what made the Church such a “thing to be at,” and why people in the South felt the need to “behave better?” Maybe we need to think about what made getting baptized a “rite of passage into adulthood?” Maybe it was because of so many people getting saved in the 1940’s, 1950’s, etc. that the Church had rubbed off on the culture, big time? And now, not so much.
David
And, of course, there was/is still a lot of lost people in the South. And yes, a lot of lost people came into the Church, in the South, because it was the cultural thing to do. But, why? Why was it the cultural thing to do? Because of the influence of the Church of the past, where a lot of people had gotten saved.
David
Yes and that soooo affected the culture that when the Civil Rights movement came to a head in the 60s those “saved” people attacked African Americans and their white sympathizes with dogs, batons, and fire hoses. Those “saved” people advocated against the CRM from their pulpits. They lynched African Americans who acted to register to vote, advocated for integrated schools and lunch counters, and turned a blind eye towards violence.
You live in a fantasy land of revisionist history if you think the Gospel was the dominant cultural narrative in the South in the 50s.
May I once again recommend to you Alan Cross’ excellent treatment of the real story of the church in the South in the period of time you are glamorizing.
The old Southern culture was wrong on segregation and racism. They never, however, lynched a fraction of the black folks that our modern culture’s Planned Parenthood aborts each year. Perhaps that is also a valid comparison of the two cultures?
Maybe someone should list the number of blacks lynched from the Civil War to, say 1980. Then compare that number to the number of black babies killed by Planned Parenthood through abortion today. My point is that both are horribly wrong, but one is much greater than the other.
The white Southern church is blamed across the board for segregation and racism in past years.
Yet when all those who follow Islam are characterized as leaning toward terrorism, you are accused of being insensitive and painting with too broad a brush.
Perhaps some are painting with too broad a brush when they condemn all Southern culture, and all Southern white churches for racism and segregation.
David R. Brumbelow
Good point about the broad brush – David B.
David Worley, et al,
A point of clarity about the white church in the South. It was not directly the driver behind lynchings. It spoke against violence repeatedly. The problem was that it did not actively oppose the violence or the system that perpetuated it. 70% of white Alabamians were members of SBC churches by the mid/late 1960s, including many local and state leaders. While there is a layer of plausible deniability at work, there is also the fact that the SBC was the chaplain to Southern Culture from the Civil War till the 1990s, by and large.
The “church” did not officially organize lynching parties, but church members participated in them and it was known and not opposed. It was considered to be the execution of justice and what was needed to maintain the status quo.
Again, I am confused about when the “good old days” ever actually existed. Like all cultures, there is ebb and flow. Certainly, some things were definitely better back then. No doubt. But, other things were much worse. I wish we didn’t keep having these trade offs.
Hey, a lot of Churches and Christians in the South were wrong about race and segregation. No doubt about it. That was a weakness in the Church, and many Believers were in error over this. But, there were a LOT of people getting saved in the South, back in the old days. The Old Timers can tell you some things that’ll make you want to jump up and shout. Before the days of A/C, the churches would be packed, with the windows open. And, a lot of men would be standing in the windows to hear the Word of God. They would put up Brush Arbors, and the crowd would come in. The Gospel would be preached, and a lot of people would get saved. They would hold huge baptism services at the ponds, and lakes, and rivers. And, the Church influenced the South.
You know, the Churches and Believers being weak in this area, and being in error, is like the Methodist Churches. I mean, they’re weak in some areas of their Christian lives, and they’re in error over eternal security and baptism. But still, some of them are saved, and they love the Lord.
Or, it’s the Reformed Churches, which baptize babies. They’re weak in several areas of doctrine, and just plain ole in error in others. But still, some of them are saved and love the Lord. They’re just wrong in some non-essential areas of Christian belief and practice.
And, it was the same for the Church in the South.
I declare that some of you come across as if you hate the South, and the Churches of the South, and Believers in the South. I mean, it’s like one insulting missile after another is hurled at the South. And, it feels like a lot of yall are just hatin’ on the South. But, we Southerners are used to that.
David
It’s kind of like how
David W.,
Hating on the South? Really?
No, David. I do not hate the South. Not at all. The opposite, actually.
David, I hate abortion, but the comparative horrors of abortion do not ameliorate the horrors if segregation, racism, lynchings, and such.
One evil doesn’t lessen the other.
Dave Miller,
Of course it doesn’t – but the broad brush point David B. Makes is a valid one.
Dave,
I never said it did.
David R. Brumbelow
Then I don’t understand the point of your comparison in your comment. That was what I understood you to be saying.
“””David, I hate abortion, but the comparative horrors of abortion do not ameliorate the horrors if segregation, racism, lynchings, and such.
One evil doesn’t lessen the other.”””
I do agree with your conclusion, but I’m not sure I follow your reasoning. Even if these evils are all equally evil, it seems that abortion should have much more of our focus since it is a present evil, not an historical evil.
I know millions of babies being killed each year. I don’t know of millions of lynchings. So, I think the comparison lacks some force of logic.
I think David’s comparison has the strong force of actually being an evil we can combat, rather than simply one we can debate.
“Mayberry leads to hell as surely as Gomorrah did.”
Um, there really is no comparison here. In Mayberry the town drunk checked himself in and out of jail. In Gomorrah, God rained down fire and brimstone.
I don’t think anyone at any church is really just trying to make people nicer. But it is a noble goal to desire more of Mayberry and less of Gomorrah in society.
As an old guy who would be characterized as an SBC traditionalist in belief and practice, I’m not counted in Dr. Moore’s fan following … but I’m not tuning out what he is saying in this regard. We need a pulpit that will preach the hell out of both Mayberry and Gomorrah, with a pew more engaged in the culture around them. We’ve got more Gomorrah in our society because the church in Mayberry grew too apathetic, complacent, and comfortable to reach into an ominous encroaching darkness with the light of Christ. “If My People” … haven’t for the last generation in Mayberry and elsewhere and we’re paying the price. The American Church is responsible for the America we see. “You must be born again” should be on our lips, rather than “Get out of my face!”
Amen, Max.
“Mayberry leads to hell as surely as Gomorrah”…..?
“Get the church out of line with America”?……when everything the ERLC touches, breathes or addresses is thoroughly awash with western “American” culture?
Completely confused by this.
Amen, Max.
I think the point is that the path to hell is wide. Good behavior (the big distinction between Mayberry and Sodom) is a noble goal, but if it isn’t a result of faith in Christ, then people who merely behave well will go to hell still rejecting the Gospel, if they’ve ever even heard it. In fact, many will reject the gospel precisely because they think they’ve had good enough behavior to get into heaven. The good behavior of Mayberry is still substandard.
Exactly, we should desire the transformation of lives over the good behavior of others providing for our social comforts. It’s the q for the American church: Are we really motivated by the gospel or our own societal version of utopia?
What’s wrong with the goal of seeing the gospel so penetrate our society that America does turn to God as a result of our salt and light in the world? In other words, not setting these things against each other, but combining them?
Nothing. But the way we often react to our culture, it seems many think the solution is the opposite direction.
We decry Supreme Court decisions more than we cry out the gospel. See it in social media, blogs, tv, and the way people talk each day.
More true Christians will result in more love for neighbor. Moore isn’t arguing against that. He’s arguing against our “sky is falling, everything is going to hell, woe is us” mentality that results from our sense of loss over a culture that we prefer better. So instead of living in angry or fearful defeat, let’s march against the darkness in victory with the gospel and not pinings over “our lost” culture.
I have people in my church who are asking, “Why isn’t the church doing anything about all of this?” Especially after Abilene Baptist in Georgia was denied a military honor guard for church, while the gay pride parade is welcome to have a military honor guard from the local fort.
In this, the Pentagon is favoring homosexuals over Christians.
People are asking, “Why are we just rolling over and letting it happen with nary a peep?!”
We ARE sharing the gospel. Yes, great, let’s still do that. Nobody’s against that at all. But maybe one way we can share the gospel with greater boldness and clarity so that our culture really perceives we are different is to proclaim a strong word of God’s judgment of sin.
It’s not just a pining for “the good old days.” It’s a pining for the righteousness that exalts a nation, a pining for God. I just don’t think this strategy of not getting bothered by anything that happens sounds more like the pacifism and apathy and escapism of many Eastern religions. Just calm down, accept the deconstruction of our worldview, and take it easy.
Who’s not getting bothered and saying, “Just accept it?”
That’s a strawman.
This is saying, “We need a different strategy.” We had a “moral majority” for a while, and look where that got us. Let’s recognize the fact that the USA is far more Babylon than Israel, and it always has been (slaughtering and taking the land of the natives, suppressing the rights of non-Caucasians and to a slightly lesser degree: women, now abortion–we’ve had one long scarlet thread of oppressing others running the length of our DNA while crying, “Freedom”). So let’s focus our energies more on the hearts of people and less on trying to sanctify the systems of Babylon.
“We had a ‘moral majority’ for a while, and look where that got us.”
No, it was not perfect, but it was a LOT better than where we are now. What is THIS getting us? How is our current strategy any better than our former one?
You may think of it as a straw man, but it seems to me, and a few others I know, that we have indeed thrown in the cultural engagement towel and sold out to the defeatist idea that we live in Babylon and there’s nothing we can do about it at a societal level. Our approach is now, “Share the gospel personally, but don’t bother trying to change the society because we are hopelessly in a new condition now so just deal with it and don’t wring your hands or get upset or organize a protest or do anything.”
Where exactly did Jesus, Paul, Peter, John, whoever give us the charge or decree to go about changing society?
When the faithful in Acts were described as turning the world on it’s head, it wasn’t rooted in a plan to change society and government but to bring the gospel to people.
Rick,
I disagree with your assessment that we have “thrown in the cultural engagement towel.” Rather, we are rethinking now we engage the culture. We tried to engage at a macro level- thru legislation, judicial appointments, elections, and other political/legal means. That has not gotten us anywhere. Abortion is still the law of the land. Morality is in the toilet. Culture is shifting away from anything resembling a Judeo-Christian ethic. I think you would agree that doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is the definition of insanity.
Instead, many of us are beginning to advocate and practice a different method of cultural engagement seen in the New Testament in a culture very similar to the American culture of today. That is a counter cultural movement that focuses on living differently, merciful intervention, and individual engagement. In other words, we are no longer focused on forcing cultural change via law or judicial fiat and instead are focused on change one heart and mind at a time.
I too used to be a culture warrior but it left me with out a hearing. I would rather be heard as a prophetic minority than ignored as a grating voice longing for the “good old days.” Which by the way we’re not that good for a lot of people.
It’s a difference of methodology and practice not mission. That’s what I, and others, are advocating for.
And you’ve been doing it at least 5-10 years. Is it going any better? Is it working? At all?
The definition of insanity is doing the same thing….
Could we stem the tide of evil better with the culture warrior mentality than whatever this is? Declaring Option A to be a failure and then replacing it with Option B assumes that the latter will be better than the former, but what if Option B is a failure EVEN WORSE than Option A?
“But it is a noble goal to desire more of Mayberry and less of Gomorrah in society.”
Yes because then people can go to hell thinking they are going to heaven because they are good people.
So was Andy going to hell? Had Barney asked Jesus into his heart? You are assuming that the godly surrounding culture only providing a smokescreen for false conversions. But it also provided an atmosphere conducive to sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ, so that many, many people made TRUE conversions. The assumption that all of Mayberry is lost, filled with only “cultural Christians” who did not really love Jesus is quite speculative.
You can apologize to Aunt Bea in Heaven!
Rick, you are really taking this to a ridiculous place. C’mon. Moore was saying that our goal is to reach people for Christ not just to create a moral climate. It’s an illustration and a good one. Few illustrations can stand against the reductio ad absurdum you are applying here.
If someone did this to one if your sermons you might not fare that well.
Can you really not understand the point?
Is it really that offensive?
Or are you just that determined to find fault with anything Dr. Moore says that you go to this extreme?
“Our goal is to reach people for Christ not just to create a moral climate.” — Dave’s Synopsis
If Moore had said that, I would have agreed 100%. The above statement, in using the word “just,” affirms the value of BOTH evangelism AND seeking to improve the culture.
Moore’s rhetoric does not do that. He sets the two against each other when they are not mutually exclusive. It is, therefore, a false dichotomy.
“God may not be as interested in (a) getting America in line with the church as He is in (b) getting the church out of line with America!”
Moore: Perhaps not A but B.
Patrick: Perhaps both A and B.
Please don’t call me ridiculous again, Dave. It’s getting, well… redundant.
Call em like I see em.
Don’t ask me to change my opinion of your analysis as long as you continue the same kind of thing you’ve been doing.
Please don’t play the victim. I said your ideas were heading into the territory of the ridiculous. They were. You were arguing on the basis if the eternal standing of fictional characters.
Don’t twist my words in your desire to okay the victim. I did not call YOU ridiculous. My comment was focused on the direction of your argument. My observation was accurate.
Aunt Bea won’t be in Heaven, Rick. She’s fictional. Since you are going absurd…
What!!!!!!!!!! Aunt Bea won’t be in heaven?
Actually, from what I’ve read, the wasn’t much Christianity Behind the cameras.
Andy and Barney as well.
Just clarifying.
If Barney asked Jesus into his heart I would still love to know he was saved since, you know, we are saved by faith…but I digress…
Romans 10:8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9 because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved.
2 Corinthians 13:5….that Jesus Christ is in you?
“I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me.”—Galatians 2:20
“That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith.”—Ephesians 3:17
Romans 10:8 Jesus is “in our heart” through “Believing.”
— We are saved by faith, not by asking Jesus into our hearts
“I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me.”—Galatians 2:20
— Amen! but not because I asked Jesus into my heart but because I have repented and put my faith in him. Him living “in me” is contingent on faith.
“That Christ may make His home in your hearts THROUGH FAITH.”—Ephesians 3:17
— THROUGH FAITH THROUGH FAITH THROUGH FAITH THROUGH FAITH THROUGH FAITH THROUGH FAITH THROUGH FAITH
“2 Corinthians 13:5….that Jesus Christ is in you?”
— we need to be careful here. We probably shouldnt take this literally. But yes he is, because I have faith in him not because I asked him in my heart.
In conclusion, if I were to ask something why they were saved, and they told me because they asked Jesus into their heart, I would ask them if they have put their faith in Jesus.
Jesus “being in your heart” (If you will) is the result of faith, not the cause of it.
But we digress…
No one ever said that it wasn’t by faith.
But, the Bible does teach that Jesus does live in our hearts. Thus, it is not incorrect to say, “I have asked Jesus to live in my heart, as my Lord and Savior.” I prefer to say that I’ve put my faith in Jesus as my Lord and Savior. But, it’s not incorrect, at all, to say that Jesus lives in the heart of man.
David
Agreed. As long as we can agree that we are not saved by asking him to come into our hearts, but by faith.
Why would God NOT be interested in getting America in line with His Bride, the Body of Christ? This would mean people getting saved and a great spiritual awakening. So on the first part, I have to say, “No.”
I DO understand and agree with the second part about the church getting out of line with the worldliness of American culture.
But what if God is interested in both?
Rick, you dining with us at the bluster tonight? It’d be nice to meet you face to face.
Sorry, but I have a scheduling conflict. I did run into Todd Benkert in the Exhibit Hall. Have a great time at the Bloggers Bash!
Rick,
Why did God have the Assyrians conquer Israel and disperse the people?
Sometimes the will of God is not to stoop down and save, but to stoop down and punish.
I’m still pulling and praying for the first option.
I believe God’s wrath ALWAYS has an element of redemption with it… His desire is that we repent… and sometimes He sends His wrath to bring us to place of repentance.
Not sure the context of this comment. But amen.
My response was associated with PM’s comment above.
I’m not sure there’s any context in which I would NOT agree with it.
Rick, you present the dilemma as it has existed from the time of the Apostles. Your rhetoric has the ring of postmillennial optimism, though, I don’t think you are a postmillennialist.
I was a card-carrying Moral Majoritist (if that is is the proper coining of the phrase). I still am a strong culture warrior, but my strategy has changed. I’m becoming less and less confident that it is possible for the Church to transform the culture (to borrow a phrase from Niebhur–not sure of the spelling without Google).
I think that is what Moore was sermonizing about. Just as I believe “God CAN do anything–as in transform American culture–He has not said He WILL do any particular thing. In fact, it seems to me that American culture has passed the point of no return.
I do believe that there is coming a Great Awakening, but not of the kind as the First and Second that had such a tremendous impact on culture. I believe it will be a “Final Harvest.” Therefore, my culture war has become more of a “strategic strike force,” or in my Navy vernacular, a “Seal Team Mission.”
I normally do not align well with Moore on most issues, though there is usually broad agreement on the principles. In this case, it seems like Moore was merely affirming the obvious.
I agree with Dave that if anyone applied your rubric on any of my sermons, I would likely not fare very well. It seems like you have an ax to grind with Moore and are not giving his sermon a fair hearing.
I am not pointing my fingers at you or taking sides. I just think that Moore has raised an important point that needs to be discussed, just as it was when H. Richard Niebuhr wrote his book, “Christ and Culture (1975).” Christ Transforming Culture was one of the five options. It is one I subscribed to up until the early 90’s.
I am drifting more and more toward, “Christ Against Culture,” as the viable option for these End Times.
I hope to see you interact with this important discussion, and not get bogged down in side issues.
Jack,
1. You are correct that I am not a postmillennialist. My optimism is reserved for Dallas Cowboys football. I am a premillennial dispensationalist, just like Dave Miller.
2. I’m not sure the church will be successful at all in transforming culture. I just believe we are called to be salt and light to the world, so whether we succeed or not, we will go down swinging—BOTH sharing the gospel with the lost AND trying to make America better by urging society to do things God’s way.
3. On your charge of me not giving Moore a fair hearing, let me say that I agreed with 80-90% of his message. “We must not fear the mission field.” Amen! I only mentioned my two areas of greatest concern. First, Mayberry is a worthy goal and we should not give up on it just because people can go to hell from there. An awful lot more went to hell from Gomorrah. (And yes, I realize Mayberry is fictional, but I am speaking “within the metaphor.”) Second, the notion of the first part of Moore’s statement, that “God may not be that interested in America getting in line with the church…” is incorrect, in my view, although as I have already admitted, I completely agree with his second part. Like you, my sermons contain errors and areas where much room for improvement definitely exists.
4. I don’t think I would necessarily choose one of Niebuhr’s options over another. I do think things are going to get worse and worse until the Rapture. But for the sake of my family and community, I believe we should shine like light in society and flavor like salt, WHETHER we succeed or not. We should go down swinging.
And this notion that we should NOT tear our robes and prophetically proclaim what is wrong in our society and do everything we can to change it, but just calm down and don’t get upset about it really seems like a defeatist approach. It FEELS like giving up. And I happen to think it is the wrong approach.
Rick, I have no disagreement with what you said.
Thanks for taking the time to outline your views.
God Bless
Interesting how differently we can react to statement like Moore’s on Mayberry. I felt an overwhelming “Amen” as I read this. Mayberry is not the goal. Gospel change is the goal. I would much prefer to live in Mayberry. I prefer “Andy Griffith” to “The Simpsons.” I wish my kids could grow up in Mayberry. I wish my community looked like Mayberry, but if it did that would not take people to Heaven. Good, moral, church going folks go to Hell if the don’t have Jesus.
Steve in Arkansas (formerly in Montana)
“I would much prefer to live in Mayberry.”
That’s all I’m saying, Steve. We agree.
“I wish my community looked like Mayberry, but if it did that would not take people to Heaven. Good, moral, church going folks go to Hell if the don’t have Jesus.”
Again, complete agreement here. In fact, I do not know ONE SINGLE PREACHER who believes or preaches that good, moral, church going folks go to heaven without Jesus. The reason we aim for a society that looks more like Mayberry than Gomorrah is NOT because Mayberry saves. It’s because a godly Christian society, if rooted in the Judeo-Christian ethic and the gospel of Jesus Christ, can be a great genuine blessing from God. It’s not wrong for us to long for a godly and moral America.
Rick Patrick,
I do agree with you, how wonderful it would be to have a society like Mayberry.
I also think if we don’t have compassion for all lost people such as the immigrants, the gays, the poor, and who ever else, Mayberry will always be a TV show.
The Conservative RepubliKKKan movement in the SBC has treated people like an email and deleted them. Christ died for all, not just a select group.
I have heard some of you talk about those on public assistance like they were less than human, and if you are something other than Republican you are practically doomed for Hell.
I think the SBC pastors are at fault, how much fault? 100%.
Jess,
I agree with your first two paragraphs, but not your last three.
I will apologize for misspelling republican in the third paragraph. There are some wonderful Christian Republicans, there is no doubt about that.
I am referring to Republicans I’ve spoken to who attend church, I want to point out that this is in every church that I have been associated with plus a lot more than that. There is prejudice in the churches. I have had white people tell me that they can’t vote for Obama because he is black. I had a mixed race couple come to my church and visited. I had an elderly couple who had two grandchildren whom they had custody of, tell me that if that couple comes back, they will leave the church. I made it a point to make sure the mixed race couple came back. Sure enough the elderly couple with their grand children got up and left the church.
I’m just plain sick of folks acting so innocent and yet so full of hatred.
Wow – Jess – I feel sorry for you if you actually believe even part the absolutely ridiculous sensationalistic drivel you post.
Wow.
Tarheel,
If I knew how to pull up comments, I could prove it quite easily, I would definitely use some of your comments.
Jess, I doubt you would find anyone stirring the race pot more than you.
Your deconstruction of the word Republican blows me away.
I am sure you thought it clever. It makes you look ignorant–or worse.
Jack,
Coming from you, I will take that as a compliment.
Sadly, I am not surprised.
The Church in the South was weak in the area of race relations, and it was in error, in many ways, in the area of race and segregation. But still, the Church in the South influenced the culture, because so much Gospel was being preached, and so many people were getting saved, that it actually influenced the people to….even though they were not saved….know “right from wrong,” and made people think that they should “get baptized and join a Church,” or at least, respect the morality and ethics of the Bible, even if they didn’t want to live by them.
But, the point is, once again, that the reason that so many lost people came into the Church, was because of the influence of the Gospel on the South. It made people live like Mayberry, even if some Peyton Place and Mississippi Burning was also going on, at the same time.
We used to never lock our doors on the car or the house, when I was young. We didn’t even feel the need to do it.
David
PS. Again, let me say, that people in Mayberry are just as lost as the people in Sodom. And, people from Mayberry will go to Hell just as much as the people in Sodom will go to Hell. And, becoming a Mayberry person won’t save a single soul. But, I’d still rather my children and grandchildren grow up in a Mayberry than a Sodom. And, if the Church can influence a lost world, in such a way, as to, at least, make them respect the Church, and have good laws on the books, and give Christians freedom to worship and practice our faith, then amen. Give me Mayberry, everytime.
“””When the faithful in Acts were described as turning the world on it’s head, it wasn’t rooted in a plan to change society and government but to bring the gospel to people.””””
Mike, I think this is an important distinction. I am assuming that you are not against positive influences in society–whether in the political, financial, social, or spiritual realms.
I think you make a good point by highlighting how the Apostolic Church had such great success in penetrating the lostness of that culture. Yet, the culture itself was only changed temporarily. Culture has been on a decline since Adam, and my view indicates that this decline will continue to the end.
I think the church needs to be careful in not overestimating the significance of the cultural war, while at the same time not disengaging altogether. It is a matter of balance.
A great lady has died.
Missionary Pioneer Elisabeth Elliot Passes Through Gates of Splendor
http://www.christianitytoday.com/gleanings/2015/june/died-elisabeth-elliot-missionary-author-gates-of-splendor.html
David R. Brumbelow
Glad to see a little more on his sermon…based on twitter, he said two things. The line about the wrong side of history (which, oddly, I think he has mentioned us being on the wrong side of history in the 60s, but I digress). And the one about getting the church less like America.
The twitter stream is way overcluttered with people just retweeting the same 2 lines.
Dave Miller had a good perspective on not pushing two phrases to an extreme.
We are in a sea change. I think that is the essence of his sermon.
We are not in Kansas anymore.