“if the foundations are destroyed, what can the righteous do?” –Psalm 11:3
In America we are seeing many of our foundations destroyed. There are godly principles upon which for hundreds of years we have stood. These pillars of our society are being decimated by an increasingly liberal and progressive culture. So, what should people of faith do? What will happen to this great nation when these foundations are destroyed?
The answer for many of our evangelical leaders is to fight for these foundations while they are only tottering. In their mind, we must keep fighting for these foundations of our society, so that our freedoms will be preserved. If we do not fight then we will be left with the same question as the Psalmist. If our foundations are destroyed what hope will the righteous have here in America? So we must preserve these foundations no matter the cost.
I believe a good argument could be made for working to preserve the Christian foundations of our nation. But the fear-mongering which comes from this logic is unhealthy. In fact, this way of thinking is the exact opposite of the point of Psalm 11:3.
Psalm 11:3 is connected with Psalm 11:2 and is to be placed on the lips of the cynic who is telling King David he ought to flee to the mountains. The cynic is the voice of the modern hand-wringing evangelical. But the Psalm begins with a rebuke of such a thought. The king is trusting in Yahweh as his refuge, therefore it is not fitting to say that he ought to flee to the mountain because the foundations are destroyed.
Those who peddle fear would have us believe that it is on some particular point that the foundation is still teetering. To not follow the party line on this issue will be to surrender every foundation and if this one falls then to the mountains we must go. And so if we desire to protect the foundations then we must hold our nose and vote for immoral men. We must overlook sexual immorality and accept pride and narcissism as a necessary evil to maintaining our foundations.
All the while we do not realize that when we buy what the fear mongers are selling and begin to peddle their words ourselves we are grabbing a sledgehammer ourselves and swinging at our foundations. The gospel is not made of fear but of hope. And hope has no home in a world driven by fear.
Psalm 11 paints a different picture. Here we see a world in which the one who trusts in the LORD can be immovable even when the foundations crumble. The mountains are no refuge, nor are they an option. Our foundation is immovable. Psalm 11 reminds us that we can be assured that God will vindicate His own righteousness. Was this not the point and hope of the religious right? To see God’s righteousness realized within the world. If this is the case, if it is not power but love for a life patterned after God and His Word which we seek, then we can res assured that God’s righteousness will win the day. He is not blind to the ways of the wicked nor deaf to the cause of the righteous.
Furthermore, Psalm 11 confirms for us that God will continually respond to His children in love. Even if it’s tough and painful love in the midst of the wreckage of a broken society. But he is a sure and certain refuge. This means that hope is never gone. We do not have to flee to the mountains, nor do we have to resort to cynicism or use a fear of fleeing to the mountains to engage in fear-mongering.
“If the foundations are destroyed what can the righteous do?” is not intended to be a call to arms. It’s the desperate plea of a cynic. The words of hope are those of David: “In the LORD I take refuge”. This Psalm is realistic in that the foundations may crumble. But it’s also realistic in it’s hope and trust in the omniscient and omnipotent God of history. He will never crumble. This is a much better path to follow because David Murray is correct, “Christian hope has never been dashed on the rocks of reality.” (The Happy Christian, 93)
King David did not run. He stood. He did not back down. He stood. His position was not based on a hope “to see God’s righteousness realized within the world.” There is a multitude of biblical evidence to confirm that David did not think God’s righteousness will be realized within this world. Nor was that the goal of most of those of us who were identified as the “religious right” back in the 70’s and 80’s. To state that was the goal of the “religious right” is a poor and false identification. We never thought that we would bring about God’s righteousness in a fallen world.
To brand those of us who were identified by others as the “religious right” as some weak minded disciples of theological dwarfs like John Rushdoony and other Dominion or Reconstructionist theologians is an insult.
I did vote for a whoremonger in this election. I did that because I could not vote for his opposition whose positions that would affect my children and grandchildren in such ways that had I voted for her would have made me want to puke my guts out on a daily basis for what I placed upon their heads in an effort to be able to preen around saying that I was taking the moral high ground by refusing to vote for a whoremonger. The truth is that Americans have been voting for whoremongers in governance since the Founding Fathers wrote the Constitution.
So, don’t tell me and millions of guys like me that we voted for the current POTUS because we fell victim of political “fear-mongering.” That’s getting rather old and stale and in no way justifies your virtue casting. What most of us did was take a stand, not unlike that of which King David did. He stood trusting that God had the future in His capable hands. That’s what I did as did many more like me. It had nothing to do with fear and everything to do with faith. We determined to live in the present and take the best “stand” we could, while trusting God with the future. Only God can bring righteousness to this world and never shall any politician be he a whoremonger or a monk sitting atop a mountain somewhere singing Kumbaya.
If the shoe doesn’t fit don’t wear it. There isn’t subtext here. I’m speaking of those who use fear to gain/keep political power. If that isnt you then you arent my point.
Mike Leake,
If there is no subtext, then what is this?
“Those who peddle fear would have us believe that it is on some particular point that the foundation is still teetering. To not follow the party line on this issue will be to surrender every foundation and if this one falls then to the mountains we must go. And so if we desire to protect the foundations then we must hold our nose and vote for immoral men. We must overlook sexual immorality and accept pride and narcissism as a necessary evil to maintaining our foundations.”
Note I’m not saying those who held their nose but those who used fear-mongering to make that argument.
I think the point of many who disagree with your conclusion, at least it is mine, is that we surrender our moral stance when we succumb to the either/or of American politics.
I think the religious right of the 70’s & 80’s failed because it was co-opted by a political party leadership that did not share its values but coveted the votes. I understand completely not voting for Hillary, just as I understand not voting for Trump; but voting for Trump because he is better than Hillary is a terrible standard for the Christian and sends the message that the only standard the Christian voter will uphold is “better than them”.
I think Mike, while not addressing your complaint directly, does indirectly address mine: we as Christians need a higher standard and focus.
I think that is being borne out in how many are relating to Trump today; we as Christians (many not all) feel wedded to him because we feel as though we have nothing else. Until Evangelical voters demand better and refuse to settle then we will get nothing other than “better than the other guy”.
I do not think I compromised anything. I refused not to vote. I was not going to lay down what I believe is my obligation as a citizen of this country because we had two immoral people seeking the highest office in the land. I made the best decision possible based on what I believe to be a biblical worldview. I did not defend Trump in anyway regarding his lack of moral character. I do not do that now either. Trump is what he is. To deny that as some do is poor in my opinion. However, I did vote for him in this present time, trusting God with the future.
Not voting or voting by a “write in” did not seem a viable option to me. I voted as I did and prayed for God to have grace on my fallen nation.
I would argue that by backing in to the either/or of the election you have settled. Trump is actually quite malleable as a president, but we Evangelicals get very little from it because we have no mechanism to influence him because en masse we belong to the Republican party.
I have no doubt you do not feel as though you settled or compromised because you saw a duty to vote for 1 of the 2 major party candidates. My point is that settling is baked into the cake of the 2 party system as it currently stands. My contention is as Christians we should demand more for our support than “better than them”.
To put it bluntly, the Christian voter as a whole is not begrudgingly supporting a whoremonger, we are the whore. We sell our vote for the promise of maybe getting, some of what we want, if it isn’t too much trouble.
If we see this as simply another rehashing of Trump v. Hillary, I think we are missing the point. The question here is about leadership and fearmongering.
Michael,
I didnt vote for T or H.
But I don’t fault those that voted fot Trump.
The standard, that higher standard, that we as Christians should aspire to, is a standard that speaks to how we live our lives and treat others. If someone, in good conscience, voted for Trump because he or she thought that such a vote was best for their neighbors and for their families, they have the Christian freedom to do so. And we have no cause to judge them.
And, we can demand better all we want. In fact, many did demand better by voting in the primaries for candidates not named Trump. And unless Trump has a bad 4 years, it will be worse next cycle.
Actually, some may be the whore, but not all. In this presidential election, which may be unlike any other in history, we were faced in the end with voting for one of two despicable people or not voting or writing in a candidate. The latter two are not to my liking. So, I voted, and yes “settled,” voted for Trump.
It is my opinion that Trump’s character has not changed for the better. if anything, it has worsened. However, he has made some decisions that I favor and favor greatly. At the same time, I know that due to his character, he may recant anything he has done that is good in my opinion and do that which is in diametric opposition to what he had stated to be is course of action the day before.
Nonetheless, I would rather deal with his flawed personality than that of Mrs. Clinton.
Now, out of curiosity, did you vote for Trump, Clinton, not vote, or write in a vote?
First off, I apologize if I sound as though I’m blaming Trump voters. I am not judging them as poor Christians. I understand the arguments. Second, no they didn’t. Trump dominated the field by sweeping through the Evangelical south. Granted, many of those voters “identify” as Evangelicals; and are Christians in name only. (the number one factor of whether an Evangelical voted for Trump or another in the primary was regular church attendance. If you attended you voted someone else; if you didn’t, you voted Trump)
Third, I’m doing a poor job of explaining my tracking of history. The mess we are in now in National politics I believe can be traced back to the alignment of the Religious Right/Value Voters with a particular party as a vehicle for their principles in politics. Trump is the result of the: vote for the R b/c he or she is better than the Dem game we as Evangelicals have played for my entire life.
What started as a means of advancing principles and ideals became a means of advancing a party. I believe many Christians felt they had no choice but to vote for Trump as the best available option, even though they did not want too. However, many of these Trump voters now wish to spend no time critiquing how we got here and evaluating the systemic means by which our vote is pimped out by National parties; while reacting with rancor and anger to anyone who questions the underlying means by which the decision was made.
I don’t fault the Trump voter who saw no other option but to plug his nose and vote. I fault the Trump voter who did that, and now wags his finger and says how dare you question my decision. There is a higher standard for national engagement. Our standard as Christians is an individual standard yes, but our faith relates and works out in every aspect of our lives. We are to do everything unto the glory of God, that includes evaluate how and why we do what we do. To throw our hands up and say: you can’t judge my vote; is not honest or Christian in it’s life evaluation and calling one another to account.
CB, I wrote in what turned to be a non-vote, I knew that going into the ballot box I would not impact this election.
To Dave’s scolding (I kid) I am not trying to rehash T vs. C from 2016; I am trying to point to the overall trend of the Evangelical who does not hold either party to any standard. We as Christians (as a whole, not you specifically), hold the Dems to the fire for everything, yet blindly vote R as better than the other guy while getting basically nothing in return.
I don’t think the game is rigged to our benefit and know it isn’t. We must see politics as a servant of our agenda and demand something for our vote, or we play this game, over and over and over again.
Now I’m off to the library with my kids.
CB: I was also in the era of the Religious Right began by Jerry Falwell, I was there when Pat Robertson ran for President elect. What Mike has stated was their goal and they did not hide that.
Likewise, I disagree thatour goal as Christians is to shore up the foundations of this republic. ur goal is to be witnesses of the Gospel in any circumstamce and enviroment. I see no mandate from the Bible to Christinize the political government of a nation [outside of praying for their salvation]. No where in the NT did the apostles seek such a thing. Yet they upturned the pagan government. Neither did Jesus seek to change the way the land was governed, instead pointing the people to the new kingdom that was coming and whose king was present.
That doesn’t mean we should not continue to be good citizens and vote as our consciences dictate, for we should do both. But our effort is to be in our call and in the command of the Lord, who sent us out to witness of Him, to baptize believers, and to make disciples of them.
The system of politics is corrupt and always will be as it is part of the way of the world. Too many times in trying to influnce it, we are waylaid by it, and sucked into its corruption.
This post raises the age old tensions of the Christian in the US and his relationship to the state – the US government.
This country was founded by religious people, Christians, and our heritage reflects that. There’s so much “God” in our founding and past, that despite the co-existing Enlightenment presence, and continued openness to other ideas, that even in 2018, US laws are for the most part based on Christian morality.
Add to that the ideas of freedom of religion (not just the “freedom to worship”), free speech, free association, free economics (the favoring of private ownership of property), and the traditional concept of equality under the law.
I will say again that the NT does not give us much direction when it comes to exercising the voting franchise.
We have, in evangelical Christianity alone, groups that favor work to establishing the US as a godly nation and pushing for laws to make it so (which is a tension that never can be easily answered – as it creeps up on both the Right and the Left), groups that favor holding on to the basic freedoms listed above but letting go of anything else, groups that favor a leftward lurch as a matter of conviction – socialism, share the wealth etc., and groups that favor reducing involvement because it’s all ungodly and God will take care of us anyway.
I cannot for the life of me find any direction from the NT about not voting for a person because they don’t hold the morality that I prefer or that they should hold to.
I also don’t think it is accurate or fair to keep repeating that Christians were co-opted by the Republican party and will vote R no matter what. That is manifestly untrue.
If the Republican party started adopting the positions of the Democratic party tomorrow, Christians would not keep voting Republican.
Most evangelicals I know are really not party loyalists. They don’t participate in parties, caucuses, party committees etc. The ones I know are concerned about issues. It just so happens that at this point in time, the Republican party candidates are seeking to adopt or preserve policies that most Evangelicals agree with. If that were to change, Evangelicals would not be voting for Republicans.
Also, I was around and voting in the 70s and 80s. Southern Evangelicals supported Democrats generally, and Jimmy Carter, in particular in large numbers.
But when Reagan came along, dragging the Republican party with him, Evangelicals liked his message and issues better than the Dems and Carter, so they started voting for Reagan and the Republicans.
I can remember when people like Jesse Jackson and Dick Gephardt were pro-life. And Governor Casey of PA and others.
So there was a huge realignment that occurred in the late 70s, and it has continued since.
The thing that has changed is that the Republican standard bearer, Trump, has a lot of personal baggage and moral failings. So, many Evangelicals feel that they cannot vote for him. And a good many of these folks don’t think other Evangelicals should vote for him either. To the extent that they voted for Mrs. Clinton, or they voted for some other candidate who had no chance such that their vote made Mrs. Clinton’s election more likely. It is unfair to say that they were “for” Clinton. They were not. But a Clinton win, made in part possible by their vote for someone who had no chance, was a more acceptable outcome than a Trump win because they felt voting for Trump was prohibited.
And again, there are Christians on the Left who really believe that Leftist policies are “biblical” and better.
I am again urging for a calm discussion among believers on these points. But I continue to see anger and confusion.
I believe it is more than fair game to argue the pros and cons of policy. If a person thinks that restrictions of religious freedom, speech, and association are good things – argue that point.
If a person thinks it would be better if more of the private wealth in this country were confiscated by government and then handed back out based on tests developed by politicians in office, then argue that point.
And so on.
We can have discussions on these points, I believe, without the rancor and accusations I sense are often just below the surface of the discussions were are having now.
One thing is for sure. We are not going back.
If you think Trump is something, look at the younger generations coming behind. What about a gay President, an transgendered President, a polygamous President. We will be there soon. Maybe not in my lifetime, but soon.
And then what? Will things be so bad that we cannot vote for anyone? Or will we be back to arguing for good vs. bad policies? Back to getting the best we can. Not letting the perfect become the enemy of the good.
Or will we just abandon the project and work in our own vineyard and return to seeing politics as “worldly”?
Louis,
One more thing.
There are two cities, the city of God and the city of man.
Politics has always been and will always be, worldly, for it is of the city of man.
Louis,
Just a point.
Most laws made by governments across the world and throughout time look very similar to our nations laws. Many were made before Jesus came into the world, think the Romans empire, among others.
That is because God gave men consciences and they know right from wrong. Thus the laws of their governments reflect their consciences.
But as always, men pervert the things of God. So in this counrty we have gay marriage, abortions, and greed all sanctioned by the government. But theyalso reflect the will of the people [as a whole].
So vote your conscience, and spread the good news of the Gospel, and let God take care of governments and salvation.
Mike:
I don’t disagree in total, but perhaps in part.
Christians who have the opportunity to vote and have a say so, should try to have a say so.
I am not sure if your response is more on the passive side. I tend to believe we should be active, just temper our expectations and focus.
Also, while there are similarities between cultures, it would be too much of a generalization to say that laws around the world look the same.
Modern Democracy came by the hard work and effort over more than a millennia. Christians should remember that. Consent by the governed is important.
As are the freedoms I mentioned – religion, association, speech, economics, equality under the law, are not the universal norm.
These rights are curtailed or controlled in many socialist or dictatorial regimes. And I believe they are always at risk, even at times and in places in our own societies.
Just look at South Africa now. And read the South African constitution – “discrimination is wrong and unfair, unless the government believes it is fair.” I kid you not. And South Africa is one of the more civilized countries in Africa.
As a percentage, most people who have lived in the world since time have faced grinding poverty compared to our society. Think of “huddled masses.”
In the US, we have not faced as much of that because of free economics – the right of private property, and the right to contract. We take those for granted. But for most of the people in the world, in most places, those rights do not exist, though things have improved through the spread of democracy, and the death of oppressive monarchies, dictatorships, and socialist regimes.
The story of Naboth and his vineyard show that ancient Israel also respected private property rights. The King could not acquire Naboth’s vineyard, except by consent.
A lot of blood was spilled to secure the rights we have. These rights help produce a just society, and permit the Church to thrive and share the Gospel. I would easily take up arms to secure them.
Louis,
There are at least two ways of looking at things.
The God run country of ancient Israel did have certain laws because of its unique position before God.
The USA has never been such a country.
God has granted us USA Christians certain freedoms and liberties that are rare in the world. We did not gain them simply by blood shed. And many of those brave soldiers were not believers. Many people shed their blood in France a few years before our own revolution.
And In England. In Russia. And across the globe.
Truth is, God raises up countries and He shuts them down, as He wills.
He grants freedoms for believers in some places where He does not in other places.
That is the testimony of history and of the current situation in the world.
But no where in His Word doesHe tell us to get involved in politics.
You call our society just.
Are we more just now then when the SBC was founded?
Is there justice in our society for the millions of children killed each year?
For the women exploited and abused every day?
See, you have a point of view, and I disagree with it.
When was our society just?
Oh, it may nave been better than other ones, and it is better now than many others, but is it just?
Are we called to make our society just in an earthly or worldly way? I don’t see it.
But we are called to witness the Gospel, and treat our neighbors right and take care of our families.
Do you think the clock is going to turn back on abortion or gay marriage, or that there will be long lasting positive change to our society? Because when I look at Israel, I see them constantly sinking back into a sinful culture. When I look at other very good societies, I see them destroyed by their greed and lust. And by their apathy against God.
Louis, that is the witness of history. It points us to only true lasting good hope we have: the return of Jesus and His direct Kingship over the world. So again, what is His command to us until that Great and Glorious Day? Is it to get involved in secular politics to make things better? Nope. Is it to look to America for peace and safety and religious liberty? Nope.
Rather it is the Great Commission. To witness for Jesus throughout the world, baptizing believers, and teaching them to be His disciples to do what? To go out into all the world witnessing for Jesus and baptizing believers and making more disciples to do the same.
How are we doing with that?
I discovered long ago that I liked (and generally agreed with) 99+ % of the folks I’ve known from Alabama. This includes C. B. in the 99+ %— along with his indisputable comments here.
dbrady
“God has granted us USA Christians certain freedoms and liberties that are rare in the world. We did not gain them simply by blood shed.”
Actually, God, in His sovereignty and providence, has granted the USA, those of us who are Christians and those of us who are not, certain freedoms and liberties that are rare in the world. . . . and frankly, Mike White, there was nothing “simple” about the blood that was shed in the gaining and maintaining of those “certain freedoms and liberties” that Sovereign God knew was going to be shed in the process. The cost in blood for the freedoms and liberties many people in this nation take for granted was and always will be high. The blood of Christians and yes, Mike White, many soldiers who were “not believers,” whether they were brave or not, was shed in the provision of the freedom we have to publicly debate this very issue on this Baptist blog, and I, for one, cannot take that for granted.
“In the US, we have not faced as much of that because of free economics – the right of private property, and the right to contract. We take those for granted. But for most of the people in the world, in most places, those rights do not exist, though things have improved through the spread of democracy, and the death of oppressive monarchies, dictatorships, and socialist regimes.”
Well, there it is. In this one, concise statement is the reason many Christians who hold a strong biblical worldview voted as we did in the last presidential election.
It was just a common sense issue for multitudes of us and had nothing to do with caving to “fear-mongering.”
CB,
Do you consider praying possessive?
Do you think voting ones conscience passive? I have suggested both of those as our duty as Christians to be good citizens of both kingdoms.
Other than those things (and loving our neighbors) I see no Biblical mandate to engage in earthly politics. But your conscience dictates a different approach, then Godspeed.
Do you think praying passive (not possessive)
Mike White,
No, I do not think praying to be passive. I consider it to be a weapon granted of God for spiritual warfare. There is absolutely nothing passive about prayer. He who does not pray lives a defenseless life and becomes easy prey for Satan.
CB,
Saying something is “simply not” isn’t declaring the first thing simple. It is saying that there is more to it than that.
Mike White,
You are right. There was more to it that. Sovereign God knew the process would necessitate the shedding of blood. I do not take that shedding of blood for granted. I do not think God does either. I do not believe we are to passively watch what God has evidently provided to us to be destroyed by that which is obviously evil. I think therein is a fundamental difference in my perspective of a biblical worldview and yours.
I base that only on what I read that you write here on Voices. I realize I do not know you personally. However, please know that I do not discount you as a brother in the faith. I believe, from what I read from you here, you are a devote follow of the Lord.
I am not a separatist. I believe that this is our home for the time being. We are here for a very long time and I live my life to the fullest. I participate where I feel like participating and I don’t participate where I don’t feel like participating. And I and God are just fine.
Mike: Good post. Well worded.