Even good people can sometimes do some bewildering things. I have no axe to grind with either Dr. Robert Jeffress or the people of First Baptist Church of Dallas. But I’m going to go out on a limb and say that their foray into the “War on Christmas” was not a good idea.
They created a website called “Grinch Alert.” (grinchalert.com) At Grinch Alert, you can keep track of whether local businesses are “Naughty” or “Nice.” The sole rubric for judgment here is whether the decorations and employees say “Merry Christmas” or whether they settle for, “Happy Holidays.” Check out the website and see what you think.
Here is a local Fox News report with Dr. Jeffress in which he gives his side of the controversy. After you watch the video, I will share some perspectives.
I am not unsympathetic to their aims. I like real Christmas trees and have shopped at the Lowe’s near my home for years. About three years ago, they made national news by calling them “Holiday Trees.” That was silly. Its a Christmas tree and that kind of unnatural excision of the term annoys me. I was not going to get my tree there that year, until Lowe’s bowed to pressure and reversed course.
If you peruse the Naughty list on Grinch Alert, you will find a lot of schools and other government agencies. They are unreasonably suppressing religious expression and I find that objectionable. I am offended when government agencies and businesses treat the mention of Christmas as something shameful.
Christians should advocate for freedom of religious expression. I should be able to wish someone Merry Christmas at school, at work, or anywhere else. But if we demand religious freedom, we must also extend that freedom to those who disagree with us. Do we really want to coerce everyone in America to celebrate the birth of Christ in the way that we do?
I would make the following observations about the website and its effects.
The Naughty and Nice Lists Trivialize Christmas
In an attempt to honor Christmas, they end up trivializing the celebration of Christmas. Do we really want to reduce the Christmas celebration to “Merry Christmas” versus “Happy Holidays?” We are going to grant people favor simply for saying two words, and condemn others for saying two other words. Ought not our celebration of Christmas go a little deeper than that?
The Naughty and Nice Lists Make Christians Look Petty
One person put Delta Airlines on the Naughty List by saying, “Though I am a frequent flyer with Delta they did not mind offending me, a Christian, with an email stating ‘Happy Holidays From The Delta Family’.” Really? You are offended because a business wished you Happy Holidays?
Delta sent this person a note that wished him an enjoyable holiday season. Granted, it was a c0mputerized mass email, but it was an attempt to be nice, wasn’t it? Delta was trying to be nice. And this person is offended. If I wished him a nice day, would he be offended? I didn’t mention Christ so I’m guessing I offended him.
There is a real issue here, when people try to suppress free religious speech. That needs to be addressed. But when this issue is trivialized as the Grinch Alert website does, it just makes Christians look small and petty about the whole thing.
The Naughty and Nice Lists Miss the Fact that Many People are Not Christians
Are we going to coerce non-Christians into saying “Merry Christmas”? Delta Airlines is not a Christian business. Should they be coerced into a religious expression simply because the majority of Americans are Christians? If Delta demands that its employees not mention Christmas, that is a problem. But isn’t it the same thing if we demand that they do mention it?
The Naughty and Nice Lists Miss the Main Issue
The object of this struggle should always be the freedom of expression. Christians should not be prohibited from expressing their celebration of the birth of Christ. Nor should anyone who is not a Christian be coerced to pretend that they are. We should never try to impose that celebration on anyone. Our objective should be Christian freedom, not the imposition of Christian values on the world.
We ought to argue for the right for Christians to express their faith. This website demands that people utter empty words or suffer wrath from the Christian majority. We are demanding a right but taking that right away from others.
Our focus must be on maintaining the freedom to celebrate Christmas, not on the intimidation of those who do not.
The Naughty and Nice Lists Expose Christians to Pointless Ridicule
We ought always to be willing to suffer for and be ridiculed for our faith. But people like John Stewart, who rejoice at any opportunity to make Christians look silly, are going to have a field day with this. Goodness, folks, even the Fox News lady thought this crossed a line!
Our gospel is an offense. But do we really need to give ammunition to our critics with something like this?
The Naughty and Nice Lists Feed a Weak Theology
As Christians, we know that the true celebration of Christmas goes way beyond the simple display of a nativity scene on public property or the intonation of the words “Merry Christmas.” Christmas was D-Day in the outworking of the eternal plan of redemption of Jesus Christ. God Incarnate, he came on a mission from God – to live the righteous life we could not live so that he could pay the debt too horrible for us to face.
Saying Merry Christmas is NOT celebrating Christmas and we should not imply that it is. You celebrate Christmas by denying yourself, taking up your cross and following Christ, not by sending out Christmas cards that say Jesus is the Reason for the Season or bludgeoning people into saying words that the don’t mean.
Conclusion
There is a real issue here. There is an attempt in some circles to suppress religious expression at Christmas. But this website and some of the “War on Christmas” rhetoric has become shrill and silly – trivializing what is important. Should we resist the pressure of political correctness to excise any meaning of Christ from the celebration of Christmas? Yes, I think so. But should we impose our own form of religious correctness that demands that people say two words or go on the Naughty list?
That is just plain silly to me.
Okay, here’s your chance to tell me what an idiot I am!
Hi DAVID,
Thanks for opening this all up for dialogue.
One always hopes that the pitiful ‘pointing of the finger’ will cease,
and, at this time of year, most especially.
Don’t mistake me here. I think there is a genuine issue that needs to be addressed. I just think that sometimes we take it too far.
DAVID, by ‘pointing of the finger’, I meant the ‘naughty list’.
We all do the pointing of the finger, may Our Lord forgive us, but at this holy season (at least it is for those who keep the liturgical year), it seems so much more jarring.
Dave,
I’m sure both of us have been accused of being idiots before and it will happen again. As I just finished a similar post on the “Grinch Alert” which will be up on my blog tomorrow, I clicked on Voices to do some last minute reading before retiring for the evening, only to find your post on the Grinch Alert. Good words and points for all to ponder. I guess we can both be idiots together on this one. 🙂 Good night and God bless,
Howell
On a number of issues in the last year (Church-State, Islam, “War” on Christmas), Rev. Jeffress has made deliberate statements and taken actions that were guaranteed to cause controversy and attract national media attention.
This won’t be the last controversy to come out of FBC Dallas, I’m sure.
I agree that it’s a little silly. Folks who can get outraged over Delta saying Happy Holidays rather than Merry Christmas in an e-mail probably don’t live a low-stress life!
I’m not really aware of the deliberate statements you reference. Unless they hit national news I don’t really hear about them up here in the frozen north.
Grinch Alert is probably the most high profile controversy.
Media Matters has a timeline of some controversies. Jeffress often says something controversial that gets covered by the Dallas Morning News. The AP or another national outlet sometimes picks up the story.
http://mediamatters.org/blog/201012090016
Hi Aaron,
looks like you picked up on the spirit displayed. It doesn’t take much discernment to understand that it was meant to cause controversy.
When I see stuff like this (it all adds up after a while) happen even at the Christmas season, I get chills. It brings to mind Yeats’ words:
‘And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?’
A couple random thoughts:
1. “Happy Holidays” does not mean “Happy Hanukkah/Christmas/Kwanzaa” — it’s shorthand for “Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year”.
2. We had some unchurched friends come to our Christmas open house — they brought a bottle of wine as a gift — I did not get offended by the gesture (meant in kindness) but graciously accepted the gift.
3. Christians getting offended all the time is ridiculous and breeds self-righteousness without helping the cause of the gospel at all. Religious freedom, yes, “merry Christmas” police, no.
Great points.
It seems sometimes that we Christians are looking for a reason to get offended.
Read some interesting things about the original definition of “merry,” such as its application to Robin Hood’s “Merry men” and how it meant “great or mighty” not just the “happy” we make it out. If Christmas is “Merry” in terms of “great and mighty” then it’s bigger than what Target does any day. And you’re right, there are places this needs addressed. For government agencies to demand the suppression of one holiday but allows the others, that’s a violation of the 1st Amendment and the spirit of free speech and religion. But I think it’s unreasonable to demand businesses teach… Read more »
Silly is an understatement. I wish people Merry Christmas but I also tell people happy holidays, especially if I don’t know whether they celebrate Christmas or know that they do not.
Hmmm… gotta wonder…
What offends Jesus more?
1. “Happy Holidays”
or
2. The fact that most of the people “bearing” his name and running around complaining about being told “happy holidays” probably do little to nothing to tell people his Gospel…?
I rather like the approach Dr. Jeffress takes here. Using the Grinch language makes this light and playful. He’s definitely not calling for a boycott or anything, a fact which he made patently clear. If we want to discourage publicly the (more or less) official cultural name change from “Merry Christmas” to “Season’s Greetings” or “Happy Holidays,” then we must do something to attract a little attention, and perhaps stem the tide of this slippery slope. I would like to think that America will still be wishing people “Merry Christmas” in another twenty years or so. I don’t want my… Read more »
I think it’s important to have a little discernment here – is the Happy Holidays simply and really an attempt to be inclusive? Most of the times probably. But this year there are more reports of “diverse” Holiday displays where it’s ok to display the menorrah (sp) alongside a Christmas tree, but you cannot display a nativity – the Christmas tree is thought to be the Christmas symbol. This to me would seem to be a blatant attempt to take Christ out of Christmas. “Happy Holidays” doesn’t offend me as long as somewhere “Merry Christmas” is something that’s not prohibited.… Read more »
That is the kind of thing that would bother me (if it can be verified) and is clearly an anti-Christian kind of thing. If communities allow expression of some faiths and restrict Christian expression – that is a problem.
Here’s a link for the menorrah, christmas tree display but no nativity allowed
http://www.wptv.com/dpp/news/region_s_palm_beach_county/boca_raton/city-of-boca-raton-accused-of-discrimination-over-holiday-display
Google Santa out Frosty in at YMCA also. Kids now sit on Frosty’s lap instead of Saint Nick.
And we still have God even if there is no worldly mention of God. In the area I am from this is not the case. Either is acceptable and no employee has been given instructions to not say Merry Christmas or to specifically say Happy Holidays. Either is fine. Sometimes I think this is blown up even in the news. We are to be salt and light but not for cultural wars. Good grief! Do you really expect those without Christ to act and think as we do? It’s why the Gospel is so important not getting them to think… Read more »
And of course you see no problem with Christmas being excluded but Hanakauh or Kwanza being allowed–because what you want most of all is for Christians to be told to shut their pie holes. Proclaiming the exclusivity of Christ and the gospel is mean spirited, ain’t it Debbers? What you call “culture war” real Christians call “standing for the truth and proclaiming it out of concern for people and their eternal destiny”. I know that sort of thing don’t go over well in your neck of the woods, but it’s what Christians do.
I think if we’d keep this one fact central in our minds, all the Christmas controversies would end immediately: the celebration of Christmas is not commanded in Scripture, neither is it exemplified in Scripture; therefore, there is absolutely no biblical, proper or righteous way to celebrate it or not celebrate it at all. All the self-righteous judgments of Christians upon their culture will cease, all the complaining that Christmas trees are pagan, and that x-mas is somehow a liberal attempt to “take Christ out of Christmas” are demolished when we realize that some celebrate certain days above others while other… Read more »
Excellent points in the discussion (made better by the fact that most of you agree with me – that’s always a plus). But I want to argue to other side of this for a little. I do believe that there is a genuine “free speech” issue here when people restricted from saying the word Christmas, when it is unnaturally excised from the “Winter Holiday” celebration. This is not (as some have pointed out) a Biblical or moral issue, but a national political one. I think there is a genuine issue to protect here – a free speech/freedom of religion/First Amendment… Read more »
My daughter is a high school senior with pretty good ACT scores. So, she gets a lot of email from colleges who recruit her. She got this brilliant one today, from SAIC “School of the Art Institute” wishing here a “Reasonably Festive Unspecified (Yet completely inclusive) Winter Holiday.”
It made me laugh.
I’m never bothered by anyone particularly someone that doesn’t know me wishes me “Happy Holidays”. My stomach does start to roll when I find out that the Management of whatever chain I’m in has issued Orders to all employees ” to not wish anyone a Merry Christmas”. And so it was with a Home Depot last year until a combination of Christians and advocates of workers’ rights made a “joyful noise” and that policy was deleted within a week. Next to that stomach tumbler is a life sized statue of Santa Clause right in the narthex of a large SBC… Read more »
“To me that’s like Patrick Swayze’s, “an elevator in a outhouse. It doesn’t belong”.”
Jack, get your movie quotes right! That was a Swayze movie, but it was actually Sam Elliot who said it. 🙂
It appears that Jeffers is under the illusion that he and FBC Dallas have some sort of power that they can weild over businesses on a national scale. Perhaps I am wrong. That is why I said, “it appears.” What makes me think this is because it seems as though he represents those Christians who believe that the larger culture should support and prop up our faith by reminding us that it is all about Jesus when we spend hundreds of dollars on soon-to-be-forgotten presents for people at Target. For what? It’s like we get offended when our consumerism is… Read more »
It was a good rant.
I’m not a fan of companies forcing their employee’s to not say Merry Christmas but I’m probably not going to base where I go to the store on that either. If I could go in Wal-mart and them have more than 10 checkout lines open (that includes the self checkout by the way–and why the heck did I go to college if I’m going to have to do the job of a check out clerk anyway) I wouldn’t care if they said “Merry Christmas” “Happy Chanukah” or “You got your stuff, now get out my store”. However, I would be… Read more »
Here’s what I posted on another blog (the relevant portion) about this topic: I have mixed feelings about this. I don’t want my church, for example, taking our time to do this kind of thing. But I am glad that people are paying attention to this and making something of it. There has been a concerted effort over the last 60 years or so, pushing on every front, to try and de-Christianize our society. Some groups that push for this do it in “test case” lawsuits. Some do it in economic boycotts, where announced or not. Others do it behind… Read more »
I agree with you, Louis. I think there is a genuine issue at the root of this. I just think this response to that issue is counter-productive.
I have to be honest. I was nervous to post this. I thought I would get killed in the comment stream for hating all things good. I’m kinda surprised that only one person has defended the Grinch Alert.
Wow, things have changed in the blogging world. A year or two ago, we’d have had 250 comments by now, most questioning my salvation for writing this.
Jeff Meyer #12, At least I got the movie correct and gave credit for the quote. What thoughts other than that do you have on the subject content ?
Aside from the fact that evidently, the smiley at the end of my post (#12) didn’t really come through, I have this to say: 1. I could care less if a non-believer refuses to greet me with “Merry Christmas”. The world has hated God forever, and they’ll hate Him forever more. Why should I expect them to wish me “Merry Christmas?” 2. If the company they work for tells them that they cannot say “Merry Christmas” and that they also cannot give any other religiously biased greeting, but can only say “Happy Holidays” (though it seems as though they forget… Read more »
For me, what so many people are passing off as Christmas these days is hardly Christmas. We’re talking about stores wanting to wish their customers “Happy Holidays” rather than “Merry Christmas” and we’re even willing to boycott stores that are trying to create business with customers who may not even be Christian. For me, I’ll say, “Merry Christmas” to everyone that I meet and know, but I’m not going to pitch a fit if someone says, “Happy Holidays” because for me, that includes Thanksgiving, Christmas, and New Year’s Day. I’m okay with that. This particular website is a waste of… Read more »
The Christian celebration of Christmas seems to be the hot topic of the day.
Howell Scott has a forceful essay on the same website that I focused on here, at his site. Here’s the link. Howell calls the FBC effort the “Spirit of Gladys Kravitz.” I’m surprised he’s old enough to know who Gladys Kravitz is!
And Andrew Wencl, at sbcIMPACT, has a more general essay about how we should celebrate Christmas.
Dave,
Now known as syndication, they were called “reruns” back in the day 🙂 Thank goodness that our antenna picked up WTOG Channel 44 (my age now) out of Tampa all those years ago! And, thanks for the link.
Bill, There are much more serious issues but these things and the comments people make here are symptomatic of those problems and how we think about them.
Maybe the problem is this: for those who are not members of a Church that follows the liturgical year, only a few days of that year are acknowledged, in isolation from the times of preparation prior to those holidays (holy days). The term ‘Merry Christmas’ traditionally is reserved for a holy day (holiday) on the liturgical calendar and the season to follow that holy day. The time BEFORE that holiday (four weeks) is a season of repentance, remembrance of great longing for a Savior, deep prayer, and spiritual preparation for One who reconciles us to God AND us to one… Read more »
I think your reaction is just about as extreme as the website. To accuse Jeffress and the others of a lack of good will seems as unfair and simplistic as their narrow focus.
There is, in my mind, a genuine effort in some parts to suppress religious expression. There is a real problem, even if I believe that their response was unproductive.
Your harsh and condescending judgment of them is no more productive.
I ask a question DAVID. In your comment and in Joe’s comment, I am receiving an answer.
But I still have hope for a time when all Christians return to a spirit of good will. Hope is good thing, David.
all Christians return to a spirit of good will
Which of course means they will not proclaim salvation as being exclusively through Christ and will not call things “sin” that the Bible calls sin.
You said, “we can see that there are those in Christianity who are, at this time, unable to reach out in good will to those around them.”
That’s not a question, Christiane. That is an accusation.
No, DAVID, it isn’t. Christians aren’t perfect. But we are asked to try to live out in our lives, the Commandments of Christ. My words ‘at this time’ are not an accusation, they are an admission that there is still hope for something better. Right now, honestly, the world doesn’t see Christ in much of the behaviors of self-righteous people. IF the Great Commission is to succeed, that must change. Think of the model of the publican and the sinner in the temple. And think about why that was a teaching of Our Lord. Stridency, hubris, pride, and contempt for… Read more »
We do not judge truth by what the world likes, we judge it by what the Word reveals. So, it is not our job to please sinners with a false message such as you advocate. We want to please the Savior by calling sinners to repentance. One may reject the message of the gospel, the call for sinners to repent. But Christians are bound to continue to proclaim the gospel regardless of whether those who deny the gospel love it or not. Jesus was crucified because he confronted the false religion of his day. Would you have told him he… Read more »
Evidently, Paul did not understand that we were to always be nice and accept everyone else without question. He called down a curse on anyone who preached “a different gospel.” Galatians 1:6-9 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to… Read more »
No, DAVID, it isn’t
Yes, L’s, it most certainly is. See, the problem is Christians live by a standard–the word of God. People like you who profess to be Christians but deny the gospel and instead proclaim that God accepts everybody no matter what they believe is the antithesis of that truth.
You’re the one with the problem, L’s. And you most certainly aren’t Christian–you don’t believe the gospel. Your fake nicey-ness (and everyone knows it’s fake) will not save you.
Is this where Christianity ‘divides’: some hold deeply to the belief that Christ also came to reconcile people to one another?
That is absolutely NOT why Christ came. Christ came to be the sacrifice for sin by bearing God’s wrath for that sin on Calvary’s cross.
Joe, you have answered my question.
“Is this where Christianity ‘divides’: some hold deeply to the belief that Christ also came to reconcile people to one another? ” Christiane, why would you think Christ came to reconcile us with other humans when He said this, for example, which is about as divisive as you can get!: 49 “I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed! 51 Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell… Read more »
Christ came to reconcile sinners to God. Those reconciled sinners also become united in Christ to one another, Christiane.
Exactly. In being reconciled to God, we are necessarily reconciled to others who have been reconciled to God. So, the reconciliation between people is a side effect of Jesus’ mission – the reconciliation of sinners to God. Jesus did not come to unite the God lover with the God hater. In fact, He said that by uniting people with God, since the world hates Him, the world would by necessity hate them as well (John 15:18-24). Paul even says that we cannot be reconciled to the world: (2 Corinthians 6:14-18 ESV) [14 ] Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers.… Read more »
So we are not to sit with them and eat with them? Or to have compassion for them because they are ‘harassed and helpless, and without a Shepherd’ ? Or like Dr. Jeffress, do we add to that harassment ? You need to go back to THE Holy Gospels again, and again, and again . . . and closely look at how Christ was with people when He was among us. Christ said, ‘as the Father has sent Me, I also send you’. We are to treat ‘the others’ with His Compassion, not with our contempt. Not with our anger,… Read more »
But your definition of harrassment and treating people poorly is not telling them that what the Bible calls sin is in fact sin and not telling them that people of other religions do not worship God and must consciously repent and trust Christ alone for salvation. There is no way anyone could proclaim biblical truth that you would not call hateful.
So, I don’t think I said that we weren’t supposed to treat them with kindness. I think I said: “We are certainly called to pray for them and even to love them” But reconciliation with them is impossible according to the Holy Gospels you think we should read again and again. Christiane, they (the world) hates Christians. Why? Is it because Christians give them things they need? Is it because Christians treat them with lovingkindness? Is it because Christians respect them? Probably not. The world hates Christians because they hate Christ. And when Christians tell the world that they must… Read more »
Jeff, Trying to explain that to L’s is pretty much like trying to talk to a light switch and get it to turn on or off. The fact that she has repeatedly demonstrated is that to proclaim biblical truth (i.e. what the Bible says sin is sin and that salvation is found only by personally, consciously trusting Christ) is to be hateful. The only people who are loving and kind are those that say “Paul was just being prejudiced in Romans 1” and “Other religions lead to God, too. The person may not realize it is Christ who saved them… Read more »
But Christians can’t return the same behavior to ‘the others’, it just keeps the cycle of hate going. For Christian people, we are to return good for evil. Was Dr. Jeffress effort designed to reach out? No. Were Christ’s efforts among people designed to reach out? Yes. IF people want to follow HIM, they must choose a Way that is different from what our pitiful human nature restricts us to, and try a better way, and this can only be done with His help. It’s harder to return good will to those who reject us, but we must. For His… Read more »
“You need to go back to THE Holy Gospels again, and again, and again . . . and closely look at how Christ was with people when He was among us. Christ said, ‘as the Father has sent Me, I also send you’. We are to treat ‘the others’ with His Compassion, not with our contempt. Not with our anger, or our impatience, or our ‘hubris’, or our pride. His Way is not ‘our way’, so we may have to learn many things from Him, in order to live in imitation of Christ. ” How do you reconcile the above… Read more »
But Christians can’t return the same behavior to ‘the others’, it just keeps the cycle of hate going
And Christians are not returning the cycle of hate. What this guy did was quite goofy. A Grinch list? As if. What he did was not hateful. Anyone who was offended needs to seriously go out and rent themselves a life.
“And then to say ‘oh, we are not like Westboro’ . . . when it’s really only a matter of degree.”
Nice try, Christiane. You always try to slip this one in. But how are your words above not “abusive” toward those on this comment stream?
Nice try, Christiane. You always try to slip this one in. But how are your words above not “abusive” toward those on this comment stream?
Lydia,
You hate-mongerin’ fear monger!!! Don’t you see, L’s is just trying to help us see that the only way to show love to people is to never proclaim biblical absolutes. (tongue planted FIRMLY in cheek)
I’m afraid we’re at cross paths, here, L’s. The peace on earth I read in Luke 2, the goodwill toward men, is peace between God and man, paid for by the stripes and the Cross, and not peace and goodwill between myself and Dave. That peace can only come between Dave and Doug when we both find peace between ourselves and God. Then, through Christ, we begin to see peace between us, reconciliation between us, and good will between us. Yet my goodwill must first be shown by striving to see people reconciled to God, whatever it may cost my… Read more »
Hi DOUG, From the Mathean Gospel, this: “AND IF YE SALUTE YOUR BRETHREN ONLY, WHAT DO YE MORE THAN OTHERS ?” I know that the Church has, at times down through the centuries, treated people poorly, usually because these people believed ‘differently’, or did not believe at all. But it was not always so: In the fifth chapter of the Epistle (letter) of Mathetes to Diognetus, we find a portion entitled: ‘The Manners of the Christians’, (written in the second century A.D. ) There is a phrase in that letter that stands out to me: ” . . THEY (the… Read more »
Christiane, how do you explain Matthew 5 with the scripture passages I shared earlier. See, I know they do not contradict one another. If I take your version of love, then they have to contradict one another, because YOUR version of Jesus would never be divisive. Yet, HE said He would be divisive.
Could it be you have a different definition or Biblical understanding of “love” and “truth”? Truth is love.
Loving our enemies does not mean agreeing with their beliefs or accepting those beliefs for yourself as “another road” to Jesus.
Perhaps, Lydia, the people of ‘THAT TOWN’, were the sort who could not accept those beautiful teachings, later written down in the Gospel of St. Matthew, and so, in their pride, they sent away the ‘messengers’ of life? As far as ‘divisive’, I most certainly do think that Our Lord will divide ‘the sheep’ from ‘the goats’, Lydia. And He gave us a pretty good idea of the description of ‘A GOAT’. No doubt is left to the imagination on that one. 🙂 I’ve seen all the scriptures used to ‘excuse’ certain treatment of others. And I have seen the… Read more »
I’m not ready to reach out in “good will” to some store manager who of whatever belief, does of his own accord take Christmas out of his employees repetoire by not allowing them to say Merry Christmas. Since a job is a good thing to have nowadays I don’t expect the indivigual employee to make a any wave. It got changed by outsiders voicing their opinion and it will get changed again under similiar circumstances. Count on it!
And yet ‘Good Will’ must begin somewhere . . .
“I’ve seen all the scriptures used to ‘excuse’ certain treatment of others. And I have seen the people who quote those scriptures come after others with ‘an Uzi’. ”
You have seen them murder people? Are they in prison now?
But of course, L’s comments aren’t “abusive” toward anyone are they, Lydia?
No, they are not. In fact L’s is pretty much on target. She is absolutely right.
They most certainly are abusive. Sugesting that the people she disagrees with (because they correctlly interpret the Bible and proclaim what it says) as coming at people with an uzi is most certainly abusive.
Don’t you have a pillow to go sob into? I thought blogging was bad for your health.
Joe: You both are on L’s like a flea on a dog. It’s hard for me to believe you are truly in the reformed doctrine. The beauty of the reformed faith is that God does the work not you. And what L’s is saying is right on. What she is saying is that she has witnessed those who call themselves Christians assassinate the soul. In some cases killing it, and your comments alone prove that point a thousand times over. She is saying she has witnessed character assassination, which also kills the Spirit and she is absolutely right. Again, your… Read more »
No, what L’s is talking about is people who say “Mormons do not worship the same God or the same Jesus as Christians”. What L’s is talking about are people who say “Homosexuality is a sin but God will forgive any sinner who repents and trusts Christ to save them”. As far as me and Lydia being “on L’s like a flea on a dog” does the phrase “Suck it up and deal with it” mean anything to you? Further, as far as what a pretend christian like you thinks of my theological persuasion, I’ll give it as much thought… Read more »
Not sure, Joe. Am I one of the varying degree of Westboro folk? I am sure you are. (wink)
But I do think accusing folks (here?) of using an Uzi is hyperbole. Now, if she had said “Glock”, I might agree. (smile) Although, I think Christiane uses a silencer.
“As far as me and Lydia being “on L’s like a flea on a dog” ”
I am simply trying to nail down what and who she is talking about. I guess that is “mean” now?
I am sure you are. (wink)
Girl, I KNOW you dit’nt!!!
Why? Concerned she is talking about you?
Joe: That’s your problem You don’t care. You just like to be a jerk. Something that takes little brain work and absolutely no self control.
I’ll kiss the jerk when he gives his employees , not his subjects the option of saying Merry Christmas.
O.K., I’ll kiss him first, then he can get off those peoples backs who he has taken Christmas away from. Then we can all eat together.
That’s better. 🙂
small beginnings, but beginnings
Proud of you!!!!!!!
Christiane, I disagree with Jeffries but not for the same reason you do. I want to make that quite clear. In fact, I do not think Jeffries is far off from the Oprahization of Christianity for different reasons. He thinks he is “protecting” it when he isn’t. He is simply making it look shallow and pedantic. Much like Oprah and Obama do.
Yes, Lydia, we see things differently.
Chrisitane, I gave you some examples of passages above that do not fit your view of what Jesus taught. Perhaps you could engage those passages and explain how your view of what Jesus Christ taught counteracts those passages within not only the pericope but the entire NT? I am also curious as to how your suggesting that the commenters here are like varying degrees of Westboro is NOT abusive toward those who disagree with you? I clearly disagree with Dave, Joe and others on comp doctrine but would NEVER suggest they are like Westboro in any way. I am trying… Read more »
You certainly do. Lydia is a Christian. No matter what they tell you in Enid about it not mattering what you believe, you are not.
While I disagree with Wade on some significant issues, Joe, I do not think it is fair to say that he teaches that it does not matter what you believe. I can disagree with much of his theology and focus while still saying that I’ve seen nothing to make me think that he has in any way compromised the doctrine of salvation by grace through faith in Christ alone. I’m assuming when you say, “Enid” you mean Wade. Again, I’ve not been shy in expressing my disagreements with him. But I think we should be governed by reality. I am… Read more »
And if you are referring to Debbie, I would say the same thing is true. Disagree with her all you want (I do – sorry, Debbie). But I do not think that Debbie believes that anyone is saved without a conscious faith in Jesus Christ.
You are right Dave. We do disagree, but it has made for lively discussions the last four years. And I do not believe that anyone is saved without a conscious faith in Jesus Christ. It’s faith in Christ alone that is our salvation. It cannot be any other way according to scripture. I also believe that faith given by God comes from hearing the Gospel. I base that on the words of Paul in Romans 10:14.
One: When someone wishes me happy holidays, they’re wishing me HAPPY HOLIDAYS! I’m supposed to be upset about THAT? Second, it’s a wonderful occasion to respond in love. Whenever someone’s said “happy holidays” to me, I’ve responded by thanking them and saying “It’s OK to say Merry Christmas to me, too”. They have universally reacted most favorably. Third, someone said it’s not the business world’s responsibility to keep Christ in Christmas. It’s ours. Maybe one way to do that would be to respond in love, not like Grinches ourselves. Fourth: were in a manager of a business, my obligation as… Read more »
Yeah, it would be like taking offense at someone saying “Have a nice day” because they didn’t mention Jesus in the greeting.
Here’s the rub, for me at least: anybody (ok, anyone with the capacity for language) can say “Merry Christmas.” It’s not quite the same test of the spirits that Paul mentions about saying “Jesus is Lord.” So, getting all worked up over that one phrase seems a little out of place. I’m with Dave (among others) who see the problem here as not so much one of defending Christianity as protecting the American idea of equal access for all religions. In public speech, there should be no discrimination in what is done, either on our side or against us. Private… Read more »
“If I go into halal butcher’s shop on University Ave in Little Rock to buy some haloumi (cheese from Cyprus), the guy’s going to tell me to have a good Christmas “Insh’Allah”. That’s right. Have a good Christmas, if it’s the will of Allah. Does he make the “Nice” side of the list? ” Great point! I am due to pick up some fresh baked pita at an Arab (Muslim) Bakery this week. Let’s see if my friend, Mo, wishes me a Merry Christmas. If he does, he would not go under Jeffries “infidel” category so where do we put… Read more »
It’s interesting to me how self-righteous people can get over Jeffries perceived self-righteousness ?
I’m guessing you are going to have to be a little more specific about who is being self-righteous and how.
See posts above.
I think Jeffress IS the Grinch !!!!! 🙂
My family and I subscribe to the AFA (American Family Association). Most of you know about them. They are the Christian moral watchdogs. I think they go too far sometimes, but others, I’m grateful to them for taking a stand. They organized a boycott of Ford Motor Compnay because Ford insisted on advertising their products in a gay magazine that was filled with pornographic images. It worked too, because Ford stopped doing that. AFA has been compiling the naughty and nice list for years so Jeffress is just riding on their coattails, looking for more publicity. He needs to whip… Read more »
Just got this in en e-mail from my wife’s uncle: To All My Democrat Friends: Please accept with no obligation, implied or explicit, my best wishes for an environmentally conscious, socially responsible, low-stress, non-addictive, gender-neutral celebration of the winter solstice holiday, practiced within the most enjoyable traditions of the religious persuasion of your choice, or secular practices of your choice, with respect for the religious/secular persuasion and/or traditions of others, or their choice not to practice religious or secular traditions at all. I also wish you a fiscally successful, personally fulfilling and medically uncomplicated recognition of the onset of the… Read more »
I was offended by that. You are going on the naughty list.
Baptist Puff has a completely positive (no attempt at giving both sides) article about the Grinch Alert.
Dave,
You beat me to it! This BP article, which you correctly describe as a “puff piece,” could have been written by the PR department of FBC Dallas. I find it hard to believe that the “reporters” at Baptist Press are unaware of the controversy that the Grinch List has generated WITHIN the SBC, much less a wider audience. If anyone at BP or at the EC offices in Nashville has any news judgment at all, please at least put out a “fair and balanced” news account of the Grinch List. I won’t hold my breath!
If you check, many of the articles in Baptist “Press” are actually written by the PR department of the entity being written about.
I’ve been reading back in the thread and I guess I wasn’t as clear as I should have been. So- When someone says Happy Holidays I don’t go berserk. When I say Merry Christmas back and ask if they celebrate Christmas and they reply in the affirmative and then I ask why they didn’t verbalise Merry Christmas and am greetd with, ” We are instructed by our Poobah that we shoud not say that !” Then the rest is easy from there. It’s not about being a strong Christian as much as Poobah only thinks he has the authority to… Read more »
good discussion but found a preatty snarky response in “Lots of This won’t be the last controversy to come out of FBC Dallas, I’m sure.”