What is God’s main purpose for us? To have a relationship of love with Him.
Romans 5:11 (NLT). So now we can rejoice in our wonderful new relationship with God because our Lord Jesus Christ has made us friends of God.
Has anyone ever heard of a meaningful relationship in which both participants don’t communicate with each other? If we are going to have a love relationship with God, that means we must talk with God. But not only talk to God. It would not be a very healthy relationship if one of the participants did all the talking, and the other always listened. In order to have a healthy love relationship with God, we must both talk to God, and learn to listen to God. And, in this age, God speaks by way of the Holy Spirit.
There is a God, and that God communicates with us as humans. God is not silent. Christianity is based not only on the existence of God, but also the possibility of knowing God, communicating with God, and hearing what He has to say to us.
Hebrews 1:1–2 (NIV). In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
What are some of the ways in which God spoke to men in the Old Testament?
Genesis 3:8. Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
Genesis 18:1–2. The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.
Genesis 32:24–30. So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.” But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” The man asked him, “What is your name?” “Jacob,” he answered. Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome.” Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.” But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there. So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”
Exodus 3:1–4. Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the desert and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up.”When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!” And Moses said, “Here I am.”
Job 33:14–18. For God does speak—now one way, now another—though man may not perceive it. In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falls on men as they slumber in their beds, he may speak in their ears and terrify them with warnings, to turn man from wrongdoing and keep him from pride, to preserve his soul from the pit, his life from perishing by the sword.
Hebrews 1:1–2 tells us that today, the supreme way in which God has spoken is through Jesus. That is, we who live since Jesus came to Earth have access to the most sublime and complete communication of God to man. God Himself took on human flesh, lived among us, and died on the cross in order to communicate His most important message: “I love you.”
But God not only has spoken through His Son. He continues to speak to us through His Son. In the Bible, we have the perfect revelation of God. But, in the Bible, we see that God, after Jesus had risen from the dead and ascended into heaven, continued to speak to men, at times through dreams, at times through inner impressions, and, at times, through words of prophecy.
Acts 10:1–3. At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. One day at about three in the afternoon he had a vision. He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, “Cornelius!”
Acts 10:9–11. About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners.
Acts 13:1–2. In the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul. While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”
Acts 16:9–10. During the night Paul had a vision of a man of Macedonia standing and begging him, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.” After Paul had seen the vision, we got ready at once to leave for Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them.
Acts 11:27–29. During this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. One of them, named Agabus, stood up and through the Spirit predicted that a severe famine would spread over the entire Roman world. (This happened during the reign of Claudius.) The disciples, each according to his ability, decided to provide help for the brothers living in Judea.
Hebrews 2:1–4. For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it. For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard, God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.
1 Corinthians 1:4–8 (NASB). I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus, that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge, even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you, so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
So, God has not stopped speaking to us, and through us, by means of special circumstances. But, according to Hebrews 1:1–2, the criterion by which we discern the voice of God is and always will be Jesus Himself: the Jesus of the Bible.
We don’t have a subjective gospel, which is subject to our private interpretation. In the Bible, we have an objective, clear, and unchangeable message. And this message is the canon—the measuring stick by which everything else is measured.
But there are certain things the Bible doesn’t tell us. It doesn’t tell us, for example, what career we ought to pursue. It doesn’t tell us who to marry. Although, in some aspects, it does tell us who we shouldn’t marry. But there are a series of things that vary from individual to individual and case to case that the Bible doesn’t tell us. The Bible is not a mystical or magical book with a hidden message that is distinct for each individual. It is a book of principles. It is the responsibility of each of us to know those principles and apply them to our personal lives.
As Christians, in addition to what God has already spoken to us by way of Jesus, God continues to speak to us by way of the Holy Spirit. But the Holy Spirit is never going to contradict what Jesus has already said. He is the representative of Jesus on the Earth today. He only speaks what Jesus tells Him to say. And the Holy Spirit is never going to contradict what is written in the Bible. It was the Holy Spirit Himself who inspired the Bible.
If God has spoken to us, and continues to speak to us, then we ought to pay attention and listen to what He is saying. Hearing God is not something of secondary importance in our life.
I’m hovering between agreement and disagreement here. I don’t have a problem with the idea that God can speak to us as individuals. I have a real problem with what most evangelicals call “speaking”. Coincidences, feelings, impressions, emotions, are not what I call speaking and I think we confuse people when we use that language to give the impression that we are getting personal messages from God.
God spoke in different ways, but it was always clear. People didn’t have to learn how to hear God’s voice.
The ‘promptings’ of the Holy Spirit are not that difficult to recognize:
The Holy Spirit works to keep us focused on and connected to Christ, so that being attached to the ‘Vine’, we will bring forth fruit. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are given to us for that end.
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit: the gift of ‘counsel’
An example of HOW the promptings of the Holy Spirit work in this gift is to help us understand within every concrete situation, no matter how trivial:
‘What is the loving thing to do’ ?
David, where are the “inner impressions” in the verses you quote? You said,
“But, in the Bible, we see that God, after Jesus had risen from the dead and ascended into heaven, continued to speak to men, at times through dreams, at times through inner impressions, and, at times, through words of prophecy.”
Where are the texts that discuss these “inner impressions”?
Here are some passages from the book of Acts that mention what I would call “inner impressions” by which God speaks to His children. These are just the ones I have found from Acts. There are many more in other parts of the Bible. Also, I think that it is hard to divide between dreams, visions, and inner impressions, the main difference being that dreams and visions are more graphic and explicit. So, if you add in the passages mentioning dreams and visions, there are quite a few more from Acts as well. Acts 8:29 And the Spirit said to… Read more »
David, what does “said” mean? I think you’re reading your personal experience back into the text.
Jared, I do not understand your comment. Could you possibly elaborate a little more?
maybe Jared’s ‘said’ objections are the same as Bill’s ‘speak; objections?
David, what does the word “said” mean? You’re saying these are “impressions” from the Spirit. How do you get this from the word, “said?” You’re reading your experience back into the text. IMO.
Jared,
1. Are you inferring that when the Holy Spirit “said” something He always did so in an audible voice?
2. About half of the passages I gave in my comment do not “say” anything about “said” or “speak.”
David, I’m just asking what “said” means. You know what it means. You can’t jump from “said” to “impressions.” You also can’t jump from silence to impressions. I realize that it doesn’t say “said” in all the passages you quote, but it doesn’t say through feelings or impressions or emotions either. Silence doesn’t allow you to assume “impressions” when the Bible clearly says the Spirit “said” elsewhere.
Jared
How does the Spirit speak?
When He does speaks, would it not leave an impression?
Jared, Frankly, this seems a bit convoluted to me. I don’t see why it needs to be so complicated. But, I will do my best to bear with you here. I understand the term “said,” especially when the one doing the “saying” is the Holy Spirit, to be basically a synonym of “communicated.” The Holy Spirit is a spirit, not a physical being. Thus, He does not have literal vocal cords, and does not normally communicate through sounds which may recorded on a tape recorder. Romans 8:26 appears to allude to this, when it says, “the Spirit himself intercedes for… Read more »
David,
Keep in mind that Romans 8:26 says the Spirit intercedes for us, not to us. The Spirit in Romans 8:26 is not speaking to us but to God, most likely the Spirit praying to the Father as we often find the Son praying to the Father.
Romans 8 says that we groan, creation groans, and the Spirit groans when He intercedes for us. I will concede that it does not specifically say that the Spirit groans through us, but I do not rule that out either.
In any case, v. 16 seems to be a clear example of the Spirit communicating to us by means of “inner impression,” does it not?
“The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.”
Also, it seems we’re getting a bit off-track of the line of discussion here. My main point is that, when the Holy Spirit communicates, He does not always do so, or even normally do so, by means of what happens when we say a person “said” something or “spoke.” It is normally (not always) non-audible, non-visual communication. Yet it is perceived by the receptor of the communication. It is a spiritual phenomenon. The Bible sometimes uses the terms “say” and “speak” metaphorically to refer to this communication.
“I will concede that it does not specifically say that the Spirit groans through us, but I do not rule that out either.” I won’t rule out the possibility, but I certainly won’t teach that as the meaning. The text does not say it, the text does not imply it, we cannot teach it. As for Romans 8:16, the Spirit is doing something with our spirit that confirms our status as children of God. I’m not all that sure of what is happening in this verse, but I am sure the verse does not teach the Spirit guiding us through… Read more »
David, you can’t turn every instance in Scripture where the Spirit “said” into an anthropomorphism. The context doesn’t warrant it. After all, if the Spirit cannot speak since He “doesn’t have vocal cords,” then neither can God the Father. Are you prepared to argue that every time the Father spoke in the Old Testament that He wasn’t really speaking? Did Moses hear God’s voice in the burning bush? The Bible says he did. Also, if the Spirit cannot do anything physical, then He cannot impress anything on our hearts, emotions, wills, etc. either. I think you’ve made an extremely non-exegetical… Read more »
This is how I understand 1 Cor. 2:10–14: “These things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom… Read more »
I’m going to have to lay this down for a little while. I’ll come back later.
Frankly, it is a bit exasperating for me how we can look at the exact same data and come to opposite conclusions. The passages I have given seem pretty clear to me.
If someone else wants to “tag-team” in for me on this, I will most gladly “hand over the microphone” for a while.
Jared,
In this comment:
https://sbcvoices.com/hearing-god-part-1/#comment-112436
it appears to me you are conflating the voice of the Spirit with human emotions and feelings.
I do not believe they are the same thing.
I think that is his assertion, David.
What we believe is the inner voice of the indwelling Spirit, he denies and attributes simply to emotions.
Dave & David, do you “hear” the Spirit’s “inner voice”?
Jared,
What is the purpose of His speech?
Could it be to communicate through your perceptions? Would that not include how you feel?
Jared,
Did God call you to the ministry?
How did He do it?
Jared raises a great point. When the Bible speaks of God speaking to people, it is always presented as a clear, distinct, unmistakable voice or vision. People know without a doubt that God has spoken, and they know what he has said. That is light years ahead of the way we often speak of God leading us today. Nothing in the Bible leads to the conclusion that God will guide us through “inner impressions”. That requires imposing a meaning on the word “said” which the Bible itself never imposes.
Chris,
A little illogical there.
Why can’t people know without a doubt that God has spoken through our perceptions, or our impressions?
And why does that impose a meaning on the word, said?
Hearing, spiritually speaking, means what?
Mike,
Spiritually speaking? I’m not sure what you mean. But I do know what speaking and hearing mean.
Chris,
You mean you see no difference between hearing with the physical ear and hearing with the heart?
Do you also see no difference between seeing with the physical eyes and seeing spiritually?
Mike, As I say, I’m not sure what you mean. Hearing with the heart? Seeing spiritually? There are things that are spiritually discerned and to discern those things we must have the Spirit (which, to point to another large can of worms, is one reason I believe regeneration precedes faith) since it is the Spirit who gives us the wisdom and understanding necessary to perceive these spiritual truths, but such perception is still a matter of the mind processing what the eye has read or what the ear has heard. Similarly, the Bible speaks of our hearts as being hardened… Read more »
Your logic is severely flawed here, Chris. God speaks (in such a way that it is put in quotes in scripture) but the how is seldom identified unless it is a dream or vision or some such thing. How did an OT prophet know the Word of the Lord? How did the church know God was saying to set aside Barnabas and Saul? How did Paul know not to go to Asia or Bithynia? We do not know. I can tell you that I have heard words of wisdom or words of knowledge that have been so distinct that I… Read more »
For those who do not agree that these verses point to the Spirit speaking by means of “inner impressions” (Jared, Chris, et al), can you please explain to me just how it is you think the Spirit spoke or influenced those who attribute their decisions to the influence of the Spirit?
Also, what do you understand to be the technical difference between dreams, visions, and inner impressions?
Bill, you said: “God spoke in different ways, but it was always clear. People didn’t have to learn how to hear God’s voice.” How do you know this? Neh. 7 Now when the wall was rebuilt and I had set up the doors, and the gatekeepers and the singers and the Levites were appointed, then I put Hanani my brother, and Hananiah the commander of the fortress, in charge of Jerusalem, for he was a faithful man and feared God more than many. Then I said to them, “Do not let the gates of Jerusalem be opened until the sun… Read more »
Parson,
That was prior to the completion of the Canon – 66 books.
Tom
Tom,
So if the canon had been complete, God would not have put it in his heart? God never puts anything into your heart?
-mike-
[I go to Parsons Baptist (-: ]
By definition, everything in the Bible was prior to the canon being completed. We have to deal with what the Bible said.
Mike,
I’m not concerned about how God speaks, only that when He speaks, He is clear. Nehemiah knew what God had done. Keep in mind also that Nehemiah is speaking under inspiration and retroactively.
I am not a “God only speaks through the bible” person. But the more we propagate the idea that God is “trying”, to speak to us, but for one reason or another “failing” to get His message across, we are far outside of the biblical record of how God interacts with us.
Along with the scripture that supports a continuist view, I can’t rule out experience. I will be open and honest in saying that I have had signs and wonders happen more than once in my life. The details are very personal so I’ll not share them here. They happened for a reason, I knew the reason, they went with scripture and God’s character not against. It confirmed what the Bible teaches it did not go against nor did it add in any way to scripture. I’ve heard too many stories that confirm God speaks in this way today. I also… Read more »
In an earlier post on this subject, someone said that Satan can do signs and wonders, so we believe Satan can mimic God(which is all he can do, he has nothing original himself) but we can’t believe God does these things today? That doesn’t compute.
Your view essentially puts God at our mercy. Abraham, Moses, Jonah, the prophets, did they have to learn how to hear God speak? How did they learn? What in the bible teaches us how to learn how to hear God speak? What is the system? Was Jonah “open” to hearing God? It seems to me that his choice was whether to obey, not whether to hear the message. God spoke, people heard. He is God, after all. God may give us a desire to do something, but that’s not a message, that’s not speaking. Trust me when I say that… Read more »
Believe me when I say Bill, this put me at God’s mercy, not on mine. 🙂
There is no system or abc’s in learning to hear God speak. That is much of our problem we look for a system or formula where there is none.
Missionaries would certainly disagree with your statement that it puts God at our mercy.
Is the reason that in scripture signs and wonders were not prevalent was due to Israel’s unbelief, out and out rebellion, and apostasy? Jesus couldn’t do miracles in Nazareth because of their unbelief.
That should be signs and wonders were more prevalent in certain periods of time in scripture than others.
Bill, There is a defined level of spiritual maturity you must reach in order to hear God speak: you must be born again. we read; For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may… Read more »
Debbie,
What does signs and wonders have to do with God communicating with His children?
mike
My part 2 will deal with biblical principles of how we can hear God better, or learn to recognize the voice of God and distinguish it from other voices vying for our attention.
Mike: I believe the two can go hand in hand.
I would also say that God communicating with us is sometimes done through signs and wonders at the least God communicating with us is pretty miraculous. Ask any unbeliever.
Debbie,
They could. i suppose. If signs and wonders or when signs and wonders. But the topic isn’t signs and wonders.
“There is a defined level of spiritual maturity you must reach in order to hear God speak: you must be born again.”
God only spoke to believers in the scriptures? I think you will have a hard time defending that statement.
Well, I can’t think of God speaking without the subject of Signs and Wonders. It too is how God speaks. It is sometimes how he confirms that our theology is on the right track, or we are on the right track. It too is his personal way of communicating.
Saul/Paul is just one example.
Bill, “I’m not concerned about how God speaks, only that when He speaks, He is clear.” I’m sorry, I didn’t get the ‘clear’ part from your first post. I agree. But what part of the OP made you think David is saying something other than that? “Keep in mind also that Nehemiah is speaking under inspiration and retroactively.” His is s p e a k i n g under i n s p i r a t i o n. Yes, i got it. So under the inspiration of the Spirit, he tells us that God puts ideas into the… Read more »
Mike: I’m not sure I quite understand your last question. I can look back over my life (even without inspiration) and see and understand times where God has led me one way or another, although I didn’t necessarily see it at the time. That is what I am suggesting is a possibility in Nehemiah’s case, especially since he is writing under inspiration.
My biggest objection to issues like this is how we use the word “speak”.
Bill,
I admit, you have me confused on what you are ‘trying’ to say. [(-:]
Please help me out here and give me the objections you have to the use of the word “speak”.
Thanks
Mike: The word “speak” means something. It normally means “talk”. I am willing to extend that to any type of communication that is clear and unequivoal (audible voice, inner voice, written, etc). What I am not willing to do is make it mean anything we want.
Ever wake up with someone on your mind to pray for? Is it God? Maybe. Is it a good thing to do? Always. Does it qualify as “God told me to pray for ……”? No.
“Is it God? Maybe. Is it a good thing to do? Always. Does it qualify as ‘God told me to pray for ……’? No.”
Very well put.
Mike,
We are not told in what way God put that in his heart. When the Bible explains *how* God communicates, it is always in clear, direct ways. But sometimes the Bible only tells us *that* God communicates, and this is what we find in Nehemiah 7. We cannot infer from the fact of God’s communication with Nehemiah that God will definitely lead and guide people today through subjective, unclear impressions and feelings.
Chris,
So did God call you to the ministry, and if so, how?
David,
The Holy Spirit’s ministry is to guide us into all Truth. That Truth is the recorded forever settled in Heaven Special Revelation we have as the Scripture. He does not ‘whisper in our ear’ and give subjective personal messages to me that He does not give to other Christ-followers. He does enable me to correctly exegete the text and make the proper application of Truth to Life in every circumstance. J
I recommend the title by Dr. Gary Meadors, Decision Making God’s Way.
In Grace,
Tom Fillinger
Columbia SC
803 776 5282
Tom,
Pastor Tom, did the Lord call you to ministry?
Maybe He called you through your brothers at church as well?
Funny thing though, He didn’t say a word to me about it.
That’s okay though, cause i believe that God does give subjective personal messages to some that He doesn’t let others in on.
Blessings,
mike
“Pastor Tom, did the Lord call you to ministry?”
As a pastor, my own answer to that is no – at least not in the way most people speak of ministerial calling. I think much of that language is as unbiblical as the language we use to speak of subjective feelings and impressions.
Chris,
So in what way did He call you?
Mike, The same way he “calls” a person to be a janitor or a banker or a teacher or a stay at home mom or a million other paths we might take. We spiritualize “the calling” in a way never found in the Bible. At the end of the day it comes down to an evaluation of the person: Are you equipped for the ministry? Do you demonstrate an ability with those things central to the biblical work of the pastor? Are you qualified in terms of the biblical qualifications found in passages like 1 Timothy 3:1-7? Then go for… Read more »
Chris,
i was, uh, called to be a postal worker because the money was better than the job I had.
Is your vocation as a pastor simply to preach and teach?
Most pastors I know would only consider that part of their calling.
I am called to teach.
Some evangelists i know of are called to preach.
I teach and he preaches, so what do we need a pastor for?
Rather, I thank the Lord for my pastors and their service to bot the Lord and to the church.
parsonsmike, God calls all believers to ministry. It’s a mistake that has plagued the Western church for centuries to make a distinction between the calling of professional ministers and the non-calling of so-called “laity”. A laborer deserves his wages, but most of us have Paul’s reward, that we might proclaim the gospel free of charge. Yes, elders are to be given a double honor, but that doesn’t mean that the rest of us are not likewise called to the ministry using the gifts we have been given. I don’t need a special word of God for that. The Bible is… Read more »
That sounds like it may be similar to the book “Decision Making and the Will of God,” by Garry Friesen. I am familiar with that book. Though it makes some good points here and there along the way, I am not in agreement with its primary thesis.
Yep. Friesen has gained a lot of popularity with that proposition – I think largely because it leaves us in control of our decision-making. It is regrettable.
We are in control of our decision making. It is not regrettable, it is essential. If God tells us what to do, we don’t need wisdom. Proverbs and James are pretty clear that wisdom is something to strive for and pray for. But if all we have to do is tap into God’s phone line and receive instruction, then no wisdom is required. We make decisions based on available information, wisdom, and character. The last two, at least, are shaped by God. We don’t want our own children to come to us to make their decisions, we want them to… Read more »
I’m not familiar with him or that book. My go-to book for people making decisions is Kevin DeYoung’s Just Do Something. Your thoughts on that book?
I haven’t read it yet, though I do read DeYoung’s blog, and read and reviewed (mostly positively) “What Is the Mission of the Church?”
Friesen’s book came out back in the late 70s/early 80s, though it looks like it was re-released in 2004, according to Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Decision-Making-Will-God-Alternative/dp/1590522052/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1346948652&sr=8-1&keywords=decision+making+and+the+will+of+god
I believe DeYoung’s and Freisen’s positions are very similar.
And equally regrettable?
Seriously, I think these newer books are just replowing the ground that Friesen tilled.
Honestly I fail to see how people seeking information, praying for wisdom, using faculties shaped and informed by scripture, and then making a decision is regrettable.
I’m not saying God can’t step in and give me a clear message that will move me in a different direction. I’m saying we shouldn’t be afraid of “missing” such messages because God’s voice has to be learned or discerned.
First, I was making a joke there. But I do think it is regrettable that Christians have made the faith so impersonal, ignoring the powerful work that a personal Holy Spirit wants to do in us.
I think we are so afraid of and disdainful of the charismatic movement and its excesses that we have ignored a great blessing – the truth that Christianity is a love relationship with a Living Lord who communicates with us through the Word and by the Spirit regularly.
Bill Mac,
In case you missed it, see this comment in regard to what you say here:
https://sbcvoices.com/hearing-god-part-1/#comment-112515
Chris: Check out Greg Koukl’s book on Decision Making and the Will of God. Good stuff.
David said this: But God not only has spoken through His Son. He continues to speak to us through His Son. In the Bible, we have the perfect revelation of God. But, in the Bible, we see that God, after Jesus had risen from the dead and ascended into heaven, continued to speak to men, at times through dreams, at times through inner impressions, and, at times, through words of prophecy. The Bible is not a law book but the record of the Living Word and His communication to us. It is not dead but alive. The words do not… Read more »
“What is God’s main purpose for us? To have a relationship of love with Him.” I prefer the old catechism answer: What is the chief end of man? Man’s chief end is to glorify God and to enjoy him forever. John Piper’s modification is also good: Man’s chief end is to glorify God by enjoying him forever. God’s primary purpose for every particle of creation is to shine the light of his glory. One way this is done is by demonstrating the depths of God’s love which is shown in part by his love for his people, which is where… Read more »
Chris,
Did God call you to the ministry?
If so, how did He so call you?
Mike,
See my comment on this above.
Chris,
You haven’t told us how he called you.
You said,
“As a pastor, my own answer to that is no – at least not in the way most people speak of ministerial calling.”
At least not in the way…
So in what way did he call you?
Mike, you keep asking these rhetorical questions that assume if a person cannot answer to your standard then the only alternative answer is yours.
1 Timothy 3 begins by explaining that some will desire to be pastors. Then, the text explains what those with such a desire look like. There is biblical objectivity in one’s call.
Chris,
So God speaks through the Scripture in our feelings, our impressions, in our dreams, and in our visions, through our perceptions, etc.
So what are you saying different than David?
?
Chris,
you said,
“When we tell people that the Spirit speaks today, we need to be clear about how, not leaving it open-ended and subject to every personal impression.”
So don’t leave it open ended brother…
HOW does he speak through the Scriptures?
By growing our understanding, growing our wisdom, growing our insight into the things of God revealed in the pages of Scripture. Thus the Bible speaks of wisdom and understanding and knowledge and truth.
Chris,
Okay, so God spoke to you in the pages of Scripture and now you are better at perceiving spiritual truths, and you are wiser now so that when you encounter another situation, you have a better feel for what to do.
Is that what you are saying?
Or do you think that an unbeliever can be just as wise and understanding as you are growing in because they too read the Scriptures?
Mike,
Last I checked, the unbeliever does not have the Spirit.
Why does James tell believers to pray for wisdom? What is the purpose of wisdom in the life of the believer? If I were to believe someone like Henry Blackaby then every time I have a serious decision to make, God will reveal his will to me. Why do I need wisdom in those times if God is going to tell me what to do? Or is wisdom defined as nothing more than knowing we ought to listen to the inner, subjective whisperings of God?
Personal relationship with God is the underlying motif behind all of Scripture, Genesis to Revelation. Of course, the underlying purpose behind that is God’s glory. I will not disagree with that.
Relationship implies communication. Sometimes this communication with God is of a more supernatural, or miraculous nature. Miracles, by definition, are exceptional. Otherwise, they cease to be miracles. Relationship and communication, however, are a day-in, day-out, part of walking with God. They are the bread and butter of the Christian life.
Otherwise, who is the Holy Spirit, and what does He do?
The nature of our communication with God has changed due to the fall and even the presence of the Spirit has not restored that communication to where it ought to be. We will not have that kind of communication until glorification. God has spoken to us, we have his Word, we have his voice, we have his communication. We even have his Spirit to help us grow in knowledge and understanding of what God has said. It is the Word which guides us day-in and day-out. It is the Word that is the lamp to our feet and light to… Read more »
And now it’s time for me to be the one who slips out. 🙂 Will be back later today to try and catch up on reading what others have said.
Under your paradigm, how does the Spirit “help us grow in knowledge and understanding of what God has said,” if not by some kind of “inner impression”?
Interestingly John Piper is a continuist.
Interestingly, this particular issue has nothing to do with continuationism. You cannot continue something that never existed.
“”””and never are we told that their experience should ever be considered normative”””” Here’s where I fall off your train of thought. I agree one hundred per cent there is no verse that says: “And God’s moving in supernatural ways in and through the lives of people will continue until Revelation chapter 21 is complete.” The problem is: the entire Bible (not just one or two isolated verses) demonstrates that when God interacts with man it is ALWAYS not sometimes a supernatural manifestation. That is the NORM. It becomes the burden of a cessationist to show why the normal way… Read more »
This is a really great post! I expect to be releasing a book on exactly this issue, showing that “hearing God” is the central issue in the great temptations of Eve/Adam, Israel (Ex 20), and Jesus; it is the essence of the new covenant (the punch line of the Pentecost sermon, citing Isa 59:21 in Acts 2:39) and the climax of Hebrews (12:25 “Do not refuse the One Who Speaks” and 3 times: “TODAY if you hear his voice”). Tons more on this, but I wanted to commend you for a very important insight!!
Hebrews 3:7, 3:15, and 4:7, are all in the context of the rest promised for the people of God through Jesus Christ. They point back to an Old Testament account where God clearly spoke to the people through the prophet. As for people today, we might recall the situation in John 10:27 where Jesus says, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.” In context, Jesus is not saying his sheep will hear him whispering to them day-by-day but that when those who are called to be sheep are called to salvation, they will know… Read more »
Chris, and that same passage in John also points back to this OT passage: The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want. He makes me lie down in green pastures; He leads me beside quiet waters. He restores my soul; He guides me in the paths of righteousness For His name’s sake. and in John 10 So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door; if anyone enters through… Read more »
With not one whisper in those texts of subjective whispers from God.
Some of these comments indicate an apparent mistrust of personal experience. Those who hold to un-revisable doctrinal propositions may minimize individual Christian experience and look skeptically at testimonies of a direct experience of grace – a personal encounter with the living Christ.
Long-held Southern Baptist positions on soul competency and priesthood of the (individual) believer appear to be vanishing core beliefs within our denomination. I believe that David Rogers clearly articulates that personal experience is under the authority of Scripture as the essence of faith, rather than a list of doctrinal suppositions.
Max: There’s nothing wrong with personal experience. We all have them. But the danger is making my personal experience normative for all Christians. So even if God tells me, explicitly and unequivocally, to move to Bolivia and become a shoemaker, that doesn’t mean He will do that for anyone else.
So experiences don’t bother me. But the idea that God’s voice is somehow faint, mysterious, and easily missed is extremely troubling to me. It essentially comes down to the idea that God tries to accomplish something (in this case, deliver a message) and fails to get it across.
Bill – We are in agreement that personal Christian experience is an individual, specific … well, personal … thing. It’s not a matter of God failing to get anything across to us … I believe it’s more a matter of our unbelief hindering reception of that which He desires in our life. I’ve been in Southern Baptist ranks long enough to know that we have largely relegated the ministry of the Holy Spirit to a back pew … and in so doing, grieved and quenched His presence.
I would not describe it as “faint, mysterious, easily missed,” but it is possible by the dullness of our hearts to not hear God. Acts 28:27. “For this people’s heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed; lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.” And, in case you think this only applies to the unregenerate, the author of Hebrews wrote to his recipients, the same ones of whom he said “yet in your… Read more »
And as Max insightfully points out, if it were not possible, there would have been no need for Paul to write “Quench not the Spirit.”
I should scissor my comment down to say when one has heard from God.
Bill: No one is saying that your experiences should be the same as ours. I don’t see anyone saying this. Then it is not a personal encounter with God but a one size fits all encounter and that isn’t true even in scripture. Each was different for that person. If no one ever has an encounter, that does not make the one who does more spiritual and once something supernatural has occurred, the last thing one usually thinks or feels is special, it’s quite the opposite. Now, the Benny Hinn stories or even Kenneth Copeland to name a few? I… Read more »
Bill, I hear what you are saying I agree in general. You also said: “”””that God tries to accomplish something (in this case, deliver a message) and fails to get it across.”””” I would ask: does not the whole life of Christ prove in fact that God wants to deliver a message and fails to get it across to many people? I’m thinking of the message of His love, John 3:16. Or the message of His gift of eternal salvation, 1Peter 3:15. It not only seems possible that God does not always get His message across to everyone, but indeed,… Read more »
Sounds like the making of a 5 point Calvinist here. Sound the alarms! If we assume God did not fail and yet people do not come to believe… In seriousness (though you may actually want to review your beliefs on election), I think by “failing to get it across” that the cessationistic side here is referring to the fact not that people in the Bible may refuse to acknowledge God’s commands, but that they always knew something had been spoken and were faced with choice to obey or disobey. The hearers of the gospel may deny the reality or the… Read more »
“”””Sounds like the making of a 5 point Calvinist here.””””
For the sake of full disclosure I identify myself as a “pointless Calvinist.”
Chris, You said this: The same way he “calls” a person to be a janitor or a banker or a teacher or a stay at home mom or a million other paths we might take. We spiritualize “the calling” in a way never found in the Bible. At the end of the day it comes down to an evaluation of the person: Are you equipped for the ministry? Do you demonstrate an ability with those things central to the biblical work of the pastor? Are you qualified in terms of the biblical qualifications found in passages like 1 Timothy 3:1-7?… Read more »
I am not an apostle, though it is worth noting that one apostle became such based on nothing more than casting lots. 🙂 No felt impression, not even a voice of the Spirit, it was a roll of the dice.
Oh, and it was a roll of the dice only after evaluating on the basis of certain criteria. Two people were qualified, so they cast lots between them.
casting lots, hmmm…
maybe.
maybe God chose His own twelfth apostle
It seems like, given the choice, before that trip to Damascus, the church would not have chosen Saul. lol
No Chris, you are not an Apostle, you are a pastor, and I thank you for your service to God and church.
Thanks brother.
I sensed a definite call to ministry when I was a teenager. I was sitting in church not listening to my dad’s sermon and – no way to explain this to the haters – I just suddenly knew that I was supposed to be a preacher/pastor. It was just a sudden awareness that I cannot rationally or convincingly explain to anyone else.
Dave,
Thanks for the reply.
Maybe others were also called this way but schooling or something squeezed out the memory of it.
Dave,
What would you say to the person who comes to you with an interest in pursuing ministry who has not had an experience like yours? I know plenty who would say an individual is not qualified for ministry unless they have had that subjective sense of “calling” even though such a subjective sense is never mentioned in Scripture as one of the qualifications for the office.
I would ask them why they wanted to be in the ministry.
Why did you Chris?
The fact is that from Genesis to Revelation, God spoke to his people. It is also true that seldom are we told how he spoke. Sometimes, we know it was with his finger by writing on a tablet (only once). Sometimes it was dreams and visions. But the vast majority of those incidences when God speaks are undefined. So, what are we to think? That these instances all involve the audible voice of God coming from heaven as to Jesus? Perhaps, but I doubt it. It is far more likely that the indwelling Spirit of God communicates with our regenerated… Read more »
“It is also true that seldom are we told how he spoke.”
We are usually told how, and it’s usually in clear, distinct, direct ways.
Dave, If we cannot prove from Scripture that God lead anyone through “personal impressions,” then we believe God leads Christians through personal impressions because we believe God leads Christians through personal impressions. If it’s not in the text, then we do not believe God leads through personal impressions due to exegesis, but based on our experience alone. We cannot teach Christians based on our experience alone, or based on silence in Scripture. We cannot argue, “The Bible doesn’t say how they were lead,” which means “they must have been lead through personal impressions from the Spirit.” That’s a leap that… Read more »
Jared,
So you advise your people not to pray to God for help in deciding which path to take: “Is this the one to marry?”, Should I take this job?”, “Should i quit my job and be a missionary?”, “Should I buy this house?”, etc.
So you are saying that God does not get involved in our big [or little] decisions, or if He does, tell me how I can know His will.
Thanks.
Mike, it’d be nice if both sides could exercise some grace here. I could argue, “So, you’re saying that God gives more revelation, that the canon isn’t closed, that the Bible isn’t sufficient for faith and practice, etc.” Of course I believe Christians should pray about decisions. They should ask for God’s guidance about everything. What I’m arguing against is that Christians should seek or try to understand some impression as a confirmation one way or the other for a decision. God leads His people through His Word. He’s also given us a conscience, and freedom to live for His… Read more »
I am not saying we have to “get a word from God” about every minute decision of our life. Indeed, using the principles of the Word of God, our sanctified common sense, and the dictates of our conscience, we are “free” to decide. But this does not mean that God never leads us in other ways, even in ways that are often counter-intuitive, especially for the unregenerate mind.
The main purpose in hearing God, however, is not guidance for decision-making, but relationship with our Heavenly Father.
You are right, David. The difference between our positions is minuscule here. We all agree that the revelation of God is complete in Christ and in the Word. We all agree that there is no new revelation of authoritative truth today. We all agree that the excesses of some movements is foolish and deceptive. We all agree that we should be led by the Word and its principles on a daily basis. No one (or at least few among the Baptist continuationists) wants a word from the Lord about whether to wear the tan pants or or the olive pants… Read more »
And yet I have already given a number of passages that indicate just that: He does lead by means of personal impressions. If you refuse to recognize that, I don’t know what else to do. That is what is making me frustrated.
David, tell me the exact phrase that means “impressions” in the above passages you’ve cited. Explain to me the exegesis.
Jared, That is sort of circular logic based on your a priori assumptions. You seem to make assumptions, carry them back and then use them to deny any evidence that does not fit those assumptions. I am simply saying that the Spirit of God who indwells believers communicates to the regenerated and redeemed human spirit, quickened, restored and made receptive to the Spirit. This is not just sanctifying our feelings. It is a recognition that (as happened in Scripture) the Spirit speaks to our spirits in clear ways. We may know be able to describe those things as clearly as… Read more »
“It is a recognition that (as happened in Scripture) the Spirit speaks to our spirits in clear ways.” But how often do people really experience this in clear ways? Most of the time when I hear people say, “The Lord is leading me to…” what they really mean is “this is what I think we should do.” There are other times when people really believe their impression comes from God, not with themselves, yet they still wrestle to confirm “is this what I was told and is it God who told me.” Most of the time, however, people stumble around… Read more »
Dave, the inner testimony of the Spirit is real and biblical (concerning salvation), but can we take this further by arguing we’re also led by His inner voice concerning various decisions?
Also, I’m a Christian. The Spirit indeed testifies to my spirit that I’m saved, but He isn’t telling me which decisions to make in my daily life, beyond the testimony of Scripture. What does this say about me?
Maybe that you are not listening?
I am not sure why you limit the Spirit’s testimony ONLY to salvation. That is not biblically warranted from what I have studied.
Dave, I’m trying to say what the text says (Rom. 8:16). It doesn’t speak of the Spirit inwardly telling us what decisions to make. Also, how can I “not be listening” to the Spirit’s inner testimony? Does Paul hint at all that ignoring the Spirit’s testimony is possible? I don’t think he does. In Rom. 8:15-16 he says that the Spirit causes us to cry out “Abba Father.” This isn’t voluntary. Furthermore, His “inner testimony” with our Spirit is in appropriating the Word to our lives. When the Word describes a Christian, the Spirit testifies to our spirit that the… Read more »
Dave, how did God speak during the time between Malachi and Matthew?
I don’t know. The Bible doesn’t say.
Can’t you feel it?
Liberal.
No, Mark, I will go one worse. DEMOCRAT!
But we know He did speak. The stories of Simeon and Anna give credible evidence that he did speak. In Simeon’s case it was obviously by the Holy Spiritas was, no doubt, the same for Anna.
David,
Thanks for the article. I am in agreement with you. I believe that the Scripture that tells us “The just shall live by faith” is a reminder that we are not left to just figure it out on our own. If I really believed my calling was nothing more than deciding I was qualified and liked preaching, I would have quit a long time ago.
Steve in Montana
The whole question of ministry call is an interesting, somewhat related, though largely ancillary question, as I understand it, to the main point of my post.
I will thus probably not jump in directly to that question here on this post.
I have blogged previously on this question here, though, in case any one wonders what I think:
http://loveeachstone.blogspot.com/2007/03/missionary-call.html
Hey, folks, at least we aren’t debated CALVINISM! This is much more fun.
Also, isn’t it time we got rid of those policies at the IMB?
http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=9724
Can anyone find fault with this model?
No mention of the ministry of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Kinda gets back to that old line from Driscoll, “Father, Son and Holy Bible.”
Basically the same as Friesen.
My question is, Did the people who were led by the Holy Spirit in the verses I give from Acts near the top of this comment stream follow this model?
My answer is, Yes, to some extent, but there was another element of the “subjective” leading of the Holy Spirit thrown in the mix as well.
God wants us to be more dependent on him, less on ourselves. This model says God wants us to be more dependent on ourselves. Isn’t that close to humanism with a religious or Baptist twist to it? Where in scripture does it say “God helps those who help themselves.” or God will teach you to be wise and make your own decisions? I’m not saying we pray Lord what outfit should I wear today or what food should I eat, what car should I drive etc. but he also does not abandon us when we are here to fulfill his… Read more »
God, like any parent, wants His children to grow and mature. There’s a reason Solomon spent so much time talking about wisdom. There’s a reason James told us to pray for reason.
It is far more biblical to depend upon God for wisdom that it is to depend upon Him for decisions.
It is possible to realize that we are dependent on God for every breath we take, and not have to ask Him for permission to breathe.
But Bill, what is the Biblical definition of wisdom? Isn’t it seeing things God’s way? It’s not relying on my own wisdom. The wisdom in scripture is supernatural is it not? So are the decisions I make really ones I would normally make in my own wisdom by God teaching me? I agree that God teaches, I just think God teaches us to depend more on Him not less. I’m not saying this is what you mean but it would result in less dependence not more, the opposite of what scripture teaches when read as scripture interpreting scripture. No verse… Read more »
Every breath we take is by God’s grace, or unmerited favor. Again, as I said above, I’m not speaking of every little life even like a heart beating or breathing. That’s rather going into extremes.
“No mention of the ministry of the indwelling Holy Spirit” That sounds good, but what does it mean? Why do we think that God in the OT age speaks clearly and unequivocally, but in the church age God’s voice is faint and mixed up in the jumble of our own thoughts, emotions, and desires? If we’re going to teach this it has got to be more than a mishmash of vague churchy sounding phrases and “you’ll know it when it happens.” Believe me when I tell you this is frustrating a lot of people who grow up in the church… Read more »
“DRISCOLL”
You started it!
“2. God uses obstacles, roadblocks, problems and circumstances to redirect our paths.”
How is that “clear”, Bill? Ok, let me rephrase: other than me banging my head against repeated doors and windows and speed bumps, how is that “clear”?
Greg: An obstacle, roadblock, problem, or circumstance is not speaking. God can redirect my path anyway He likes. But if the bridge is out ahead, and I have to detour, I cannot now say “God told me to take the detour”.
Fair enough. I just think that particular portion of the model is weak. Since you asked.
Another good verse:
1 John 2:27. But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him.
” … abide in him.”
Yes, another very helpful verse. Brother Rogers, as I mentioned in an upstream comment, there appears to be a growing mistrust in some SBC circles regarding individual, personal experience … an abiding faith, an encounter with the living Lord, a personal relationship and fellowship with Christ … love worth finding, as your father used to say.
Probably one of my favorite writings dealing with the way God speaks to us came from John Piper (who, as has been noted, is a continuationist): “The Morning I Heard the Voice of God” http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/taste-see-articles/the-morning-i-heard-the-voice-of-god
This is where our two perspectives converge. I totally agree with everything Piper says in this article. It’s just, for me, that does not eliminate the possibility of God speaking in other ways as well. I do totally agree, though, that we should in no way belittle or fail to get excited about the wonderful way He speaks through Scripture. I would add, however, that our understanding and spiritual perception of the truth of Scripture is increased by a deep relationship with the Holy Spirit, who takes the Scripture and opens our eyes to what it says and burns it… Read more »
David Rogers, I believe you are right on target with the thrust of this post. I find interesting the dialogue and conclusion reached in the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 regarding the issue of the Gentile believers, “It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us” (15:28). The decision of this group of believers (specifically the apostles) was made in dialogue with the scripture (cf. Amos 9:11-12) without the scripture giving a clear command on what to do on the subject. In what has been called the “Wesleyan Quadralateral,” says that believers can hear from God through four main… Read more »
I am guilty from time to time of posting snippy smart-alec comments. I have seen some others also lose control and do the same thing.
It is great to read through these 150+ comments and, aside from Dave calling Mark a Democrat, there wasn’t one thing that made me cringe. Though the debate is heavy it is a blessing to see Christian brothers and sisters arguing like….well, Christian brothers and sisters.
Grace abounds, to God be the glory!
Amen!