What is God’s main purpose for us? To have a relationship of love with Him.
Romans 5:11 (NLT). So now we can rejoice in our wonderful new relationship with God because our Lord Jesus Christ has made us friends of God.
Has anyone ever heard of a meaningful relationship in which both participants don’t communicate with each other? If we are going to have a love relationship with God, that means we must talk with God. But not only talk to God. It would not be a very healthy relationship if one of the participants did all the talking, and the other always listened. In order to have a healthy love relationship with God, we must both talk to God, and learn to listen to God. And, in this age, God speaks by way of the Holy Spirit.
There is a God, and that God communicates with us as humans. God is not silent. Christianity is based not only on the existence of God, but also the possibility of knowing God, communicating with God, and hearing what He has to say to us.
Hebrews 1:1–2 (NIV). In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
What are some of the ways in which God spoke to men in the Old Testament?
Genesis 3:8. Then the man and his wife heard the sound of the LORD God as he was walking in the garden in the cool of the day, and they hid from the LORD God among the trees of the garden.
Genesis 18:1–2. The LORD appeared to Abraham near the great trees of Mamre while he was sitting at the entrance to his tent in the heat of the day. Abraham looked up and saw three men standing nearby. When he saw them, he hurried from the entrance of his tent to meet them and bowed low to the ground.
Genesis 32:24–30. So Jacob was left alone, and a man wrestled with him till daybreak. When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man. Then the man said, “Let me go, for it is daybreak.” But Jacob replied, “I will not let you go unless you bless me.” The man asked him, “What is your name?” “Jacob,” he answered. Then the man said, “Your name will no longer be Jacob, but Israel, because you have struggled with God and with men and have overcome.” Jacob said, “Please tell me your name.” But he replied, “Why do you ask my name?” Then he blessed him there. So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”
Exodus 3:1–4. Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian, and he led the flock to the far side of the desert and came to Horeb, the mountain of God. There the angel of the LORD appeared to him in flames of fire from within a bush. Moses saw that though the bush was on fire it did not burn up. So Moses thought, “I will go over and see this strange sight—why the bush does not burn up.”When the LORD saw that he had gone over to look, God called to him from within the bush, “Moses! Moses!” And Moses said, “Here I am.”
Job 33:14–18. For God does speak—now one way, now another—though man may not perceive it. In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falls on men as they slumber in their beds, he may speak in their ears and terrify them with warnings, to turn man from wrongdoing and keep him from pride, to preserve his soul from the pit, his life from perishing by the sword.
Hebrews 1:1–2 tells us that today, the supreme way in which God has spoken is through Jesus. That is, we who live since Jesus came to Earth have access to the most sublime and complete communication of God to man. God Himself took on human flesh, lived among us, and died on the cross in order to communicate His most important message: “I love you.”
But God not only has spoken through His Son. He continues to speak to us through His Son. In the Bible, we have the perfect revelation of God. But, in the Bible, we see that God, after Jesus had risen from the dead and ascended into heaven, continued to speak to men, at times through dreams, at times through inner impressions, and, at times, through words of prophecy.
Acts 10:1–3. At Caesarea there was a man named Cornelius, a centurion in what was known as the Italian Regiment. He and all his family were devout and God-fearing; he gave generously to those in need and prayed to God regularly. One day at about three in the afternoon he had a vision. He distinctly saw an angel of God, who came to him and said, “Cornelius!”
Acts 10:9–11. About noon the following day as they were on their journey and approaching the city, Peter went up on the roof to pray. He became hungry and wanted something to eat, and while the meal was being prepared, he fell into a trance. He saw heaven opened and something like a large sheet being let down to earth by its four corners.
Acts 13:1–2. In the church at Antioch there were prophets and teachers: Barnabas, Simeon called Niger, Lucius of Cyrene, Manaen (who had been brought up with Herod the tetrarch) and Saul. While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”
Acts 16:9–10. During the night Paul had a vision of a man of Macedonia standing and begging him, “Come over to Macedonia and help us.” After Paul had seen the vision, we got ready at once to leave for Macedonia, concluding that God had called us to preach the gospel to them.
Acts 11:27–29. During this time some prophets came down from Jerusalem to Antioch. One of them, named Agabus, stood up and through the Spirit predicted that a severe famine would spread over the entire Roman world. (This happened during the reign of Claudius.) The disciples, each according to his ability, decided to provide help for the brothers living in Judea.
Hebrews 2:1–4. For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it. For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard, God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.
1 Corinthians 1:4–8 (NASB). I thank my God always concerning you for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus, that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge, even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you, so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, who will also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
So, God has not stopped speaking to us, and through us, by means of special circumstances. But, according to Hebrews 1:1–2, the criterion by which we discern the voice of God is and always will be Jesus Himself: the Jesus of the Bible.
We don’t have a subjective gospel, which is subject to our private interpretation. In the Bible, we have an objective, clear, and unchangeable message. And this message is the canon—the measuring stick by which everything else is measured.
But there are certain things the Bible doesn’t tell us. It doesn’t tell us, for example, what career we ought to pursue. It doesn’t tell us who to marry. Although, in some aspects, it does tell us who we shouldn’t marry. But there are a series of things that vary from individual to individual and case to case that the Bible doesn’t tell us. The Bible is not a mystical or magical book with a hidden message that is distinct for each individual. It is a book of principles. It is the responsibility of each of us to know those principles and apply them to our personal lives.
As Christians, in addition to what God has already spoken to us by way of Jesus, God continues to speak to us by way of the Holy Spirit. But the Holy Spirit is never going to contradict what Jesus has already said. He is the representative of Jesus on the Earth today. He only speaks what Jesus tells Him to say. And the Holy Spirit is never going to contradict what is written in the Bible. It was the Holy Spirit Himself who inspired the Bible.
If God has spoken to us, and continues to speak to us, then we ought to pay attention and listen to what He is saying. Hearing God is not something of secondary importance in our life.
I’m hovering between agreement and disagreement here. I don’t have a problem with the idea that God can speak to us as individuals. I have a real problem with what most evangelicals call “speaking”. Coincidences, feelings, impressions, emotions, are not what I call speaking and I think we confuse people when we use that language to give the impression that we are getting personal messages from God.
God spoke in different ways, but it was always clear. People didn’t have to learn how to hear God’s voice.
The ‘promptings’ of the Holy Spirit are not that difficult to recognize:
The Holy Spirit works to keep us focused on and connected to Christ, so that being attached to the ‘Vine’, we will bring forth fruit. The gifts of the Holy Spirit are given to us for that end.
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit: the gift of ‘counsel’
An example of HOW the promptings of the Holy Spirit work in this gift is to help us understand within every concrete situation, no matter how trivial:
‘What is the loving thing to do’ ?
David, where are the “inner impressions” in the verses you quote? You said,
“But, in the Bible, we see that God, after Jesus had risen from the dead and ascended into heaven, continued to speak to men, at times through dreams, at times through inner impressions, and, at times, through words of prophecy.”
Where are the texts that discuss these “inner impressions”?
Here are some passages from the book of Acts that mention what I would call “inner impressions” by which God speaks to His children. These are just the ones I have found from Acts. There are many more in other parts of the Bible. Also, I think that it is hard to divide between dreams, visions, and inner impressions, the main difference being that dreams and visions are more graphic and explicit. So, if you add in the passages mentioning dreams and visions, there are quite a few more from Acts as well.
Acts 8:29 And the Spirit said to Philip, “Go over and join this chariot.”
Acts 10:19–20 And while Peter was pondering the vision, the Spirit said to him, “Behold, three men are looking for you. 20 Rise and go down and accompany them without hesitation, for I have sent them.”
Acts 11:12 And the Spirit told me to go with them, making no distinction.
Acts 13:2 While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, “Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.”
Acts 13:4 So, being sent out by the Holy Spirit, they went down to Seleucia, and from there they sailed to Cyprus.
Acts 15:28 For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements…
Acts 16:7 And when they had come up to Mysia, they attempted to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them.
Acts 19:21 Now after these events Paul resolved in the Spirit to pass through Macedonia and Achaia and go to Jerusalem, saying, “After I have been there, I must also see Rome.”
Acts 20:22–23 And now, behold, I am going to Jerusalem, constrained by the Spirit, not knowing what will happen to me there, except that the Holy Spirit testifies to me in every city that imprisonment and afflictions await me.
Acts 23:11 The following night the Lord stood by him and said, “Take courage, for as you have testified to the facts about me in Jerusalem, so you must testify also in Rome.”
Acts 27:9–10 Since much time had passed, and the voyage was now dangerous because even the Fast was already over, Paul advised them, saying, “Sirs, I perceive that the voyage will be with injury and much loss, not only of the cargo and the ship, but also of our lives.”
David, what does “said” mean? I think you’re reading your personal experience back into the text.
Jared, I do not understand your comment. Could you possibly elaborate a little more?
maybe Jared’s ‘said’ objections are the same as Bill’s ‘speak; objections?
David, what does the word “said” mean? You’re saying these are “impressions” from the Spirit. How do you get this from the word, “said?” You’re reading your experience back into the text. IMO.
Jared,
1. Are you inferring that when the Holy Spirit “said” something He always did so in an audible voice?
2. About half of the passages I gave in my comment do not “say” anything about “said” or “speak.”
David, I’m just asking what “said” means. You know what it means. You can’t jump from “said” to “impressions.” You also can’t jump from silence to impressions. I realize that it doesn’t say “said” in all the passages you quote, but it doesn’t say through feelings or impressions or emotions either. Silence doesn’t allow you to assume “impressions” when the Bible clearly says the Spirit “said” elsewhere.
Jared
How does the Spirit speak?
When He does speaks, would it not leave an impression?
Jared, Frankly, this seems a bit convoluted to me. I don’t see why it needs to be so complicated. But, I will do my best to bear with you here. I understand the term “said,” especially when the one doing the “saying” is the Holy Spirit, to be basically a synonym of “communicated.” The Holy Spirit is a spirit, not a physical being. Thus, He does not have literal vocal cords, and does not normally communicate through sounds which may recorded on a tape recorder. Romans 8:26 appears to allude to this, when it says, “the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words.” That does not mean the Bible is not “verbally inspired,” but that is a different rabbit trail. At times, the Spirit communicates specific words, or at least leads us to express what He is communicating by means of specific words: “You have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!” The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God (Acts 8:15–16). That sounds an awful lot like an “inner impression” to me.
The Bible (and Acts) also records God sending angels to deliver His messages to His children. In this case, “said” or “speak” appears to be an audible message. But there are many instances given of God communicating to His children without the use of angels or audible voices.
Perhaps the term “inner impression” is causing the problem. I don’t know how else to describe non-audible, non-visual communication.
David,
Keep in mind that Romans 8:26 says the Spirit intercedes for us, not to us. The Spirit in Romans 8:26 is not speaking to us but to God, most likely the Spirit praying to the Father as we often find the Son praying to the Father.
Romans 8 says that we groan, creation groans, and the Spirit groans when He intercedes for us. I will concede that it does not specifically say that the Spirit groans through us, but I do not rule that out either.
In any case, v. 16 seems to be a clear example of the Spirit communicating to us by means of “inner impression,” does it not?
“The Spirit himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God.”
Also, it seems we’re getting a bit off-track of the line of discussion here. My main point is that, when the Holy Spirit communicates, He does not always do so, or even normally do so, by means of what happens when we say a person “said” something or “spoke.” It is normally (not always) non-audible, non-visual communication. Yet it is perceived by the receptor of the communication. It is a spiritual phenomenon. The Bible sometimes uses the terms “say” and “speak” metaphorically to refer to this communication.
“I will concede that it does not specifically say that the Spirit groans through us, but I do not rule that out either.”
I won’t rule out the possibility, but I certainly won’t teach that as the meaning. The text does not say it, the text does not imply it, we cannot teach it.
As for Romans 8:16, the Spirit is doing something with our spirit that confirms our status as children of God. I’m not all that sure of what is happening in this verse, but I am sure the verse does not teach the Spirit guiding us through inner impressions. We cannot go from the Spirit’s confirmation of our status as children of God to the Spirit leading and guiding us day-by-day through subjective impressions. The point of the passage is giving comfort to believers that we are secure in Christ and as such have confidence of greater things in the future following present sufferings with Christ.
David, you can’t turn every instance in Scripture where the Spirit “said” into an anthropomorphism. The context doesn’t warrant it. After all, if the Spirit cannot speak since He “doesn’t have vocal cords,” then neither can God the Father. Are you prepared to argue that every time the Father spoke in the Old Testament that He wasn’t really speaking? Did Moses hear God’s voice in the burning bush? The Bible says he did. Also, if the Spirit cannot do anything physical, then He cannot impress anything on our hearts, emotions, wills, etc. either. I think you’ve made an extremely non-exegetical argument here. The Spirit obviously speaks even though He doesn’t have vocal cords. He’s God. Where is the textual warrant that the Spirit doesn’t speak using audible words? That’s what “said” means.
Furthermore, the Spirit indeed rebirths us in Christ, bringing us into an intimate relationship with the Father, causing us to cry out, “My Father.” I don’t understand how you’re using this to argue for “relative impressions” beyond Scripture. The Spirit causes all believers to cry out, “My Father,” not just a few here and there. He moves through the mind to the emotions, feelings, etc., not the other way around. After all, the gospel is a message that must be understood and responded to before salvation takes place. You cannot “feel” the message apart from first knowing the message. Those who don’t have the cognitive ability to understand the message, are incapable of believing. I’m not arguing that emotions aren’t important, but I am arguing that they are secondary, not primary. Why then, would we exalt our emotions, feelings, etc. to the place of primarily “hearing the Spirit’s non-audible” voice today?
This is how I understand 1 Cor. 2:10–14:
“These things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. 11 For who knows a person’s thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. 13 And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual.
14 The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.”
I’m going to have to lay this down for a little while. I’ll come back later.
Frankly, it is a bit exasperating for me how we can look at the exact same data and come to opposite conclusions. The passages I have given seem pretty clear to me.
If someone else wants to “tag-team” in for me on this, I will most gladly “hand over the microphone” for a while.
Jared,
In this comment:
https://sbcvoices.com/hearing-god-part-1/#comment-112436
it appears to me you are conflating the voice of the Spirit with human emotions and feelings.
I do not believe they are the same thing.
I think that is his assertion, David.
What we believe is the inner voice of the indwelling Spirit, he denies and attributes simply to emotions.
Dave & David, do you “hear” the Spirit’s “inner voice”?
Jared,
What is the purpose of His speech?
Could it be to communicate through your perceptions? Would that not include how you feel?
Jared,
Did God call you to the ministry?
How did He do it?
Jared raises a great point. When the Bible speaks of God speaking to people, it is always presented as a clear, distinct, unmistakable voice or vision. People know without a doubt that God has spoken, and they know what he has said. That is light years ahead of the way we often speak of God leading us today. Nothing in the Bible leads to the conclusion that God will guide us through “inner impressions”. That requires imposing a meaning on the word “said” which the Bible itself never imposes.
Chris,
A little illogical there.
Why can’t people know without a doubt that God has spoken through our perceptions, or our impressions?
And why does that impose a meaning on the word, said?
Hearing, spiritually speaking, means what?
Mike,
Spiritually speaking? I’m not sure what you mean. But I do know what speaking and hearing mean.
Chris,
You mean you see no difference between hearing with the physical ear and hearing with the heart?
Do you also see no difference between seeing with the physical eyes and seeing spiritually?
Mike,
As I say, I’m not sure what you mean. Hearing with the heart? Seeing spiritually?
There are things that are spiritually discerned and to discern those things we must have the Spirit (which, to point to another large can of worms, is one reason I believe regeneration precedes faith) since it is the Spirit who gives us the wisdom and understanding necessary to perceive these spiritual truths, but such perception is still a matter of the mind processing what the eye has read or what the ear has heard. Similarly, the Bible speaks of our hearts as being hardened and corrupted by sin and that God must break the heart of stone if we are to love the things of God, but that also refers to the reality that we are dead in our sins unless God by the Spirit makes us new (regeneration: the work of the Spirit to cause us to be born again). We can speak of spiritual eyes in this sense – eyes that are capable of perceiving spiritual truths.
But I as a believer don’t have one set of eyes to see physical things and another set of eyes to see spiritual things. I have my eyes, eyes that have been renewed by the Spirit of God. Something similar would be said of the heart.
Your logic is severely flawed here, Chris. God speaks (in such a way that it is put in quotes in scripture) but the how is seldom identified unless it is a dream or vision or some such thing.
How did an OT prophet know the Word of the Lord?
How did the church know God was saying to set aside Barnabas and Saul?
How did Paul know not to go to Asia or Bithynia?
We do not know.
I can tell you that I have heard words of wisdom or words of knowledge that have been so distinct that I could share them with you and put quotes around them.
They were personal. I did not preach them as new revelation or authoritative commands. They were in line with scripture but went farther than scripture does. But they were distinct enough that if I shared them, I would put quotes around them.
God spoke to me.
I would share these with you, but I am quite sure they would simply be met with the same ridicule you used the last time I shared one such personal story. But they were very real, regardless.
Yes, God spoke clearly and distinctly, by his Spirit directly into the regenerated and receptive hearts of the redeemed.
For those who do not agree that these verses point to the Spirit speaking by means of “inner impressions” (Jared, Chris, et al), can you please explain to me just how it is you think the Spirit spoke or influenced those who attribute their decisions to the influence of the Spirit?
Also, what do you understand to be the technical difference between dreams, visions, and inner impressions?
Bill,
you said:
“God spoke in different ways, but it was always clear. People didn’t have to learn how to hear God’s voice.”
How do you know this?
Neh. 7
Now when the wall was rebuilt and I had set up the doors, and the gatekeepers and the singers and the Levites were appointed, then I put Hanani my brother, and Hananiah the commander of the fortress, in charge of Jerusalem, for he was a faithful man and feared God more than many. Then I said to them, “Do not let the gates of Jerusalem be opened until the sun is hot, and while they are standing guard, let them shut and bolt the doors. Also appoint guards from the inhabitants of Jerusalem, each at his post, and each in front of his own house.” Now the city was large and spacious, but the people in it were few and the houses were not built.
Then my God put it into my heart to assemble the nobles, the officials and the people to be enrolled by genealogies. Then I found the book of the genealogy of those who came up first in which I found the following record:
So did Nehemiah get a personal message from the Lord? Yep.
Parson,
That was prior to the completion of the Canon – 66 books.
Tom
Tom,
So if the canon had been complete, God would not have put it in his heart? God never puts anything into your heart?
-mike-
[I go to Parsons Baptist (-: ]
By definition, everything in the Bible was prior to the canon being completed. We have to deal with what the Bible said.
Mike,
I’m not concerned about how God speaks, only that when He speaks, He is clear. Nehemiah knew what God had done. Keep in mind also that Nehemiah is speaking under inspiration and retroactively.
I am not a “God only speaks through the bible” person. But the more we propagate the idea that God is “trying”, to speak to us, but for one reason or another “failing” to get His message across, we are far outside of the biblical record of how God interacts with us.
Along with the scripture that supports a continuist view, I can’t rule out experience. I will be open and honest in saying that I have had signs and wonders happen more than once in my life. The details are very personal so I’ll not share them here. They happened for a reason, I knew the reason, they went with scripture and God’s character not against. It confirmed what the Bible teaches it did not go against nor did it add in any way to scripture.
I’ve heard too many stories that confirm God speaks in this way today. I also wonder if you don’t have to be open to God working and speaking in this way to experience it. God is not going to do something that would cause us to run from Him but to Him.
I do think we have to learn to hear God speak. That is where scripture and the studying of it, along with prayer, is a must.
In an earlier post on this subject, someone said that Satan can do signs and wonders, so we believe Satan can mimic God(which is all he can do, he has nothing original himself) but we can’t believe God does these things today? That doesn’t compute.
Your view essentially puts God at our mercy. Abraham, Moses, Jonah, the prophets, did they have to learn how to hear God speak? How did they learn? What in the bible teaches us how to learn how to hear God speak? What is the system? Was Jonah “open” to hearing God? It seems to me that his choice was whether to obey, not whether to hear the message.
God spoke, people heard. He is God, after all. God may give us a desire to do something, but that’s not a message, that’s not speaking.
Trust me when I say that teaching people that they have to reach some undefined level of spiritual maturity in order to hear God speak is defeating and depressing Christians all over. I have received their testimony first hand.
Believe me when I say Bill, this put me at God’s mercy, not on mine. 🙂
There is no system or abc’s in learning to hear God speak. That is much of our problem we look for a system or formula where there is none.
Missionaries would certainly disagree with your statement that it puts God at our mercy.
Is the reason that in scripture signs and wonders were not prevalent was due to Israel’s unbelief, out and out rebellion, and apostasy? Jesus couldn’t do miracles in Nazareth because of their unbelief.
That should be signs and wonders were more prevalent in certain periods of time in scripture than others.
Bill,
There is a defined level of spiritual maturity you must reach in order to hear God speak: you must be born again.
we read;
For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
Debbie,
What does signs and wonders have to do with God communicating with His children?
mike
My part 2 will deal with biblical principles of how we can hear God better, or learn to recognize the voice of God and distinguish it from other voices vying for our attention.
Mike: I believe the two can go hand in hand.
I would also say that God communicating with us is sometimes done through signs and wonders at the least God communicating with us is pretty miraculous. Ask any unbeliever.
Debbie,
They could. i suppose. If signs and wonders or when signs and wonders. But the topic isn’t signs and wonders.
“There is a defined level of spiritual maturity you must reach in order to hear God speak: you must be born again.”
God only spoke to believers in the scriptures? I think you will have a hard time defending that statement.
Well, I can’t think of God speaking without the subject of Signs and Wonders. It too is how God speaks. It is sometimes how he confirms that our theology is on the right track, or we are on the right track. It too is his personal way of communicating.
Saul/Paul is just one example.
Bill,
“I’m not concerned about how God speaks, only that when He speaks, He is clear.”
I’m sorry, I didn’t get the ‘clear’ part from your first post.
I agree. But what part of the OP made you think David is saying something other than that?
“Keep in mind also that Nehemiah is speaking under inspiration and retroactively.”
His is s p e a k i n g under i n s p i r a t i o n. Yes, i got it. So under the inspiration of the Spirit, he tells us that God puts ideas into the heart. Thus since he is speaking under inspiration, we should believe that God puts ideas into our hearts. I got it. Thanks.
or do you think that God is trying to tell us at that passage that He only puts ideas in Nehemiah’s heart?
Mike: I’m not sure I quite understand your last question. I can look back over my life (even without inspiration) and see and understand times where God has led me one way or another, although I didn’t necessarily see it at the time. That is what I am suggesting is a possibility in Nehemiah’s case, especially since he is writing under inspiration.
My biggest objection to issues like this is how we use the word “speak”.
Bill,
I admit, you have me confused on what you are ‘trying’ to say. [(-:]
Please help me out here and give me the objections you have to the use of the word “speak”.
Thanks
Mike: The word “speak” means something. It normally means “talk”. I am willing to extend that to any type of communication that is clear and unequivoal (audible voice, inner voice, written, etc). What I am not willing to do is make it mean anything we want.
Ever wake up with someone on your mind to pray for? Is it God? Maybe. Is it a good thing to do? Always. Does it qualify as “God told me to pray for ……”? No.
“Is it God? Maybe. Is it a good thing to do? Always. Does it qualify as ‘God told me to pray for ……’? No.”
Very well put.
Mike,
We are not told in what way God put that in his heart. When the Bible explains *how* God communicates, it is always in clear, direct ways. But sometimes the Bible only tells us *that* God communicates, and this is what we find in Nehemiah 7. We cannot infer from the fact of God’s communication with Nehemiah that God will definitely lead and guide people today through subjective, unclear impressions and feelings.
Chris,
So did God call you to the ministry, and if so, how?
David,
The Holy Spirit’s ministry is to guide us into all Truth. That Truth is the recorded forever settled in Heaven Special Revelation we have as the Scripture. He does not ‘whisper in our ear’ and give subjective personal messages to me that He does not give to other Christ-followers. He does enable me to correctly exegete the text and make the proper application of Truth to Life in every circumstance. J
I recommend the title by Dr. Gary Meadors, Decision Making God’s Way.
In Grace,
Tom Fillinger
Columbia SC
803 776 5282
Tom,
Pastor Tom, did the Lord call you to ministry?
Maybe He called you through your brothers at church as well?
Funny thing though, He didn’t say a word to me about it.
That’s okay though, cause i believe that God does give subjective personal messages to some that He doesn’t let others in on.
Blessings,
mike
“Pastor Tom, did the Lord call you to ministry?”
As a pastor, my own answer to that is no – at least not in the way most people speak of ministerial calling. I think much of that language is as unbiblical as the language we use to speak of subjective feelings and impressions.
Chris,
So in what way did He call you?
Mike,
The same way he “calls” a person to be a janitor or a banker or a teacher or a stay at home mom or a million other paths we might take. We spiritualize “the calling” in a way never found in the Bible. At the end of the day it comes down to an evaluation of the person: Are you equipped for the ministry? Do you demonstrate an ability with those things central to the biblical work of the pastor? Are you qualified in terms of the biblical qualifications found in passages like 1 Timothy 3:1-7? Then go for it. In fact, in terms of spiritual gifts, if God has equipped a person for a certain work, then in that sense – and that sense only – the person might be spoken of as being “called” to the work. We are to use our gifts for the good of the church. If a person has a clear ability to preach and teach the Word of God (the central aspect of the biblical pastor) then those abilities ought to be used for the good of the church.
Chris,
i was, uh, called to be a postal worker because the money was better than the job I had.
Is your vocation as a pastor simply to preach and teach?
Most pastors I know would only consider that part of their calling.
I am called to teach.
Some evangelists i know of are called to preach.
I teach and he preaches, so what do we need a pastor for?
Rather, I thank the Lord for my pastors and their service to bot the Lord and to the church.
parsonsmike, God calls all believers to ministry.
It’s a mistake that has plagued the Western church for centuries to make a distinction between the calling of professional ministers and the non-calling of so-called “laity”. A laborer deserves his wages, but most of us have Paul’s reward, that we might proclaim the gospel free of charge. Yes, elders are to be given a double honor, but that doesn’t mean that the rest of us are not likewise called to the ministry using the gifts we have been given. I don’t need a special word of God for that. The Bible is clear about it. Some are gifted and qualified to be pastors in a way that is obvious to the community of faith. That is enough. Too many who claim to be called to be a pastor have no business being a pastor.
That sounds like it may be similar to the book “Decision Making and the Will of God,” by Garry Friesen. I am familiar with that book. Though it makes some good points here and there along the way, I am not in agreement with its primary thesis.
Yep. Friesen has gained a lot of popularity with that proposition – I think largely because it leaves us in control of our decision-making. It is regrettable.
We are in control of our decision making. It is not regrettable, it is essential. If God tells us what to do, we don’t need wisdom. Proverbs and James are pretty clear that wisdom is something to strive for and pray for. But if all we have to do is tap into God’s phone line and receive instruction, then no wisdom is required.
We make decisions based on available information, wisdom, and character. The last two, at least, are shaped by God. We don’t want our own children to come to us to make their decisions, we want them to learn how to make their own. We have a part in that, especially early on, but we would deem it wrong if they came to us everytime they needed to make a decision. We would consider that we had failed them somehow.
God can step in and give us a message anytime he wants. But we should not expect that level of oversight of our decision making.
When faced with a decision, how do you pray? “God tell me what to do” or “God give me wisdom”? The latter is much more biblical than the former.
I’m not familiar with him or that book. My go-to book for people making decisions is Kevin DeYoung’s Just Do Something. Your thoughts on that book?
I haven’t read it yet, though I do read DeYoung’s blog, and read and reviewed (mostly positively) “What Is the Mission of the Church?”
Friesen’s book came out back in the late 70s/early 80s, though it looks like it was re-released in 2004, according to Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/Decision-Making-Will-God-Alternative/dp/1590522052/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1346948652&sr=8-1&keywords=decision+making+and+the+will+of+god
I believe DeYoung’s and Freisen’s positions are very similar.
And equally regrettable?
Seriously, I think these newer books are just replowing the ground that Friesen tilled.
Honestly I fail to see how people seeking information, praying for wisdom, using faculties shaped and informed by scripture, and then making a decision is regrettable.
I’m not saying God can’t step in and give me a clear message that will move me in a different direction. I’m saying we shouldn’t be afraid of “missing” such messages because God’s voice has to be learned or discerned.
First, I was making a joke there. But I do think it is regrettable that Christians have made the faith so impersonal, ignoring the powerful work that a personal Holy Spirit wants to do in us.
I think we are so afraid of and disdainful of the charismatic movement and its excesses that we have ignored a great blessing – the truth that Christianity is a love relationship with a Living Lord who communicates with us through the Word and by the Spirit regularly.
Bill Mac,
In case you missed it, see this comment in regard to what you say here:
https://sbcvoices.com/hearing-god-part-1/#comment-112515
Chris: Check out Greg Koukl’s book on Decision Making and the Will of God. Good stuff.
David said this:
But God not only has spoken through His Son. He continues to speak to us through His Son. In the Bible, we have the perfect revelation of God. But, in the Bible, we see that God, after Jesus had risen from the dead and ascended into heaven, continued to speak to men, at times through dreams, at times through inner impressions, and, at times, through words of prophecy.
The Bible is not a law book but the record of the Living Word and His communication to us. It is not dead but alive. The words do not change, but God uses the words written to communicate spiritual truths both to teach doctrine and for pragmatic use.
So we read:
My son, if you will receive my words
And treasure my commandments within you,
Make your ear attentive to wisdom,
Incline your heart to understanding;
For if you cry for discernment,
Lift your voice for understanding;
If you seek her as silver
And search for her as for hidden treasures;
Then you will discern the fear of the Lord
And discover the knowledge of God.
For the Lord gives wisdom;
From His mouth come knowledge and understanding.
Certainly some knowledge and understanding can be gleaned just by reading the Bible, even for an unbeliever. But it is the Spirit who leads us into understanding.
So we read:
For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
if we just need to read the Bible to know the things freely given to us by God, or to have spiritual thoughts with spiritual words, than what need of the Spirit in these verses?
and again we read:
These things I have written to you concerning those who are trying to deceive you. As for you, the anointing which you received from Him abides in you, and you have no need for anyone to teach you; but as His anointing teaches you about all things, and is true and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you abide in Him.
The Spirit teaches us. He is not teaching us new doctrine or doctrine not found in the Word. But He is teaching us and giving us wisdom and understanding.
“What is God’s main purpose for us? To have a relationship of love with Him.”
I prefer the old catechism answer:
What is the chief end of man?
Man’s chief end is to glorify God and to enjoy him forever.
John Piper’s modification is also good:
Man’s chief end is to glorify God by enjoying him forever.
God’s primary purpose for every particle of creation is to shine the light of his glory. One way this is done is by demonstrating the depths of God’s love which is shown in part by his love for his people, which is where the relationship and the enjoying come in. But relationship is not God’s main purpose for us; relationship is one aspect of God’s main purpose.
I’m resisting the urge to respond to a number of additional points in this post, going to limit myself to two:
First, be careful with exceptional examples in the Bible. It is all well and good to point to God’s dealings with Adam and Abraham and Jacob and Moses, but these are clearly exceptional situations. God was doing something clearly unusual and unique with these individuals. Other people in their age (well, with the exception of Adam) did not experience what they experienced and never are we told that their experience should ever be considered normative. The whole point is that God was doing something exceptional.
The same holds in the New Testament. While dramatic experiences of this sort are more common, they are still exceptional rather than normative. The point of the book of Acts is not to tell us to expect similar experiences, but to teach us to marvel at the power of God shown through these early witnesses. Never are we told that their experience will be our experience.
Second, there is a shift at the end of the post which leaves things unexplained. We are told that “God continues to speak to us by way of the Holy Spirit” but we are not told how God speaks to us by way of the Holy Spirit. Is it in dreams and visions? Is it through angelic visitation? Is it by subjective impressions?
In the Bible, every example I know of God speaking to people involved a clear word. On rare occasions people mistake where that word originates (Samuel) but people always know that someone has spoken and they know what has been spoken, and very often those people are on their faces with fear. Even in the New Testament, people see definite visions or have objective, clear visits from angels. They do not act by impressions or by feeling led. God spoke to them clearly and unmistakably.
I do believe the Spirit speaks to people today but he does it through the clear, unmistakable, objective Word of God. When we tell people that the Spirit speaks today, we need to be clear about how, not leaving it open-ended and subject to every personal impression. Even when we put subjective impressions within the boundaries of Scripture (saying that the Spirit will never contradict the Bible) we are still misleading people since we are saying the Spirit will speak apart from Scripture rather than through Scripture. Certainly God could do this and has does this, but the Bible never promises that God will do this. What we ought to teach people is to learn from the Spirit through the Word and to use that Word in all the decisions of life.
Chris,
Did God call you to the ministry?
If so, how did He so call you?
Mike,
See my comment on this above.
Chris,
You haven’t told us how he called you.
You said,
“As a pastor, my own answer to that is no – at least not in the way most people speak of ministerial calling.”
At least not in the way…
So in what way did he call you?
Mike, you keep asking these rhetorical questions that assume if a person cannot answer to your standard then the only alternative answer is yours.
1 Timothy 3 begins by explaining that some will desire to be pastors. Then, the text explains what those with such a desire look like. There is biblical objectivity in one’s call.
Chris,
So God speaks through the Scripture in our feelings, our impressions, in our dreams, and in our visions, through our perceptions, etc.
So what are you saying different than David?
?
Chris,
you said,
“When we tell people that the Spirit speaks today, we need to be clear about how, not leaving it open-ended and subject to every personal impression.”
So don’t leave it open ended brother…
HOW does he speak through the Scriptures?
By growing our understanding, growing our wisdom, growing our insight into the things of God revealed in the pages of Scripture. Thus the Bible speaks of wisdom and understanding and knowledge and truth.
Chris,
Okay, so God spoke to you in the pages of Scripture and now you are better at perceiving spiritual truths, and you are wiser now so that when you encounter another situation, you have a better feel for what to do.
Is that what you are saying?
Or do you think that an unbeliever can be just as wise and understanding as you are growing in because they too read the Scriptures?
Mike,
Last I checked, the unbeliever does not have the Spirit.
Why does James tell believers to pray for wisdom? What is the purpose of wisdom in the life of the believer? If I were to believe someone like Henry Blackaby then every time I have a serious decision to make, God will reveal his will to me. Why do I need wisdom in those times if God is going to tell me what to do? Or is wisdom defined as nothing more than knowing we ought to listen to the inner, subjective whisperings of God?
Personal relationship with God is the underlying motif behind all of Scripture, Genesis to Revelation. Of course, the underlying purpose behind that is God’s glory. I will not disagree with that.
Relationship implies communication. Sometimes this communication with God is of a more supernatural, or miraculous nature. Miracles, by definition, are exceptional. Otherwise, they cease to be miracles. Relationship and communication, however, are a day-in, day-out, part of walking with God. They are the bread and butter of the Christian life.
Otherwise, who is the Holy Spirit, and what does He do?
The nature of our communication with God has changed due to the fall and even the presence of the Spirit has not restored that communication to where it ought to be. We will not have that kind of communication until glorification. God has spoken to us, we have his Word, we have his voice, we have his communication. We even have his Spirit to help us grow in knowledge and understanding of what God has said. It is the Word which guides us day-in and day-out. It is the Word that is the lamp to our feet and light to our path as we walk with God. It is the Word that is promised to God’s people.
And now it’s time for me to be the one who slips out. 🙂 Will be back later today to try and catch up on reading what others have said.
Under your paradigm, how does the Spirit “help us grow in knowledge and understanding of what God has said,” if not by some kind of “inner impression”?
Interestingly John Piper is a continuist.
Interestingly, this particular issue has nothing to do with continuationism. You cannot continue something that never existed.
“”””and never are we told that their experience should ever be considered normative””””
Here’s where I fall off your train of thought. I agree one hundred per cent there is no verse that says: “And God’s moving in supernatural ways in and through the lives of people will continue until Revelation chapter 21 is complete.”
The problem is: the entire Bible (not just one or two isolated verses) demonstrates that when God interacts with man it is ALWAYS not sometimes a supernatural manifestation. That is the NORM.
It becomes the burden of a cessationist to show why the normal way God acted throughout the narrative of the Bible is no longer the way He acts now.
If I shared my testimony of how God “called” me into ministry over 35 years ago, it would be strikingly similar to how he spoke to Moses to call him to go to Pharaoh.
One very big difference would be: I’m no Moses.
Perhaps part of the problem is the word, “normative.” How many times, and to what exacting detail, does God have to do something for it to be a “normative” way in which He can interact with man?
This is a really great post! I expect to be releasing a book on exactly this issue, showing that “hearing God” is the central issue in the great temptations of Eve/Adam, Israel (Ex 20), and Jesus; it is the essence of the new covenant (the punch line of the Pentecost sermon, citing Isa 59:21 in Acts 2:39) and the climax of Hebrews (12:25 “Do not refuse the One Who Speaks” and 3 times: “TODAY if you hear his voice”). Tons more on this, but I wanted to commend you for a very important insight!!
Hebrews 3:7, 3:15, and 4:7, are all in the context of the rest promised for the people of God through Jesus Christ. They point back to an Old Testament account where God clearly spoke to the people through the prophet. As for people today, we might recall the situation in John 10:27 where Jesus says, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.” In context, Jesus is not saying his sheep will hear him whispering to them day-by-day but that when those who are called to be sheep are called to salvation, they will know the voice of Christ because he has made his voice known (regeneration; opening their eyes and ears to discern spiritual truth) and they will be saved. This is why the Jews were grumbling. They wanted to know why Jesus hadn’t made himself clear as to whether or not he was the Messiah. Jesus tells them that he has made it clear but they did not hear his voice – his revelation that he is the Messiah come to save the world – because they are not the sheep of God.
Chris,
and that same passage in John also points back to this OT passage:
The Lord is my shepherd,
I shall not want.
He makes me lie down in green pastures;
He leads me beside quiet waters.
He restores my soul;
He guides me in the paths of righteousness
For His name’s sake.
and in John 10
So Jesus said to them again, “Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
Go in and out, led by the Shepherd. Finding pasture [rest and food] -life. led by the Shepherd. Leading me beside still waters. Guiding me in the paths of righteousness. Making me lie down in green pastures.
With not one whisper in those texts of subjective whispers from God.
Some of these comments indicate an apparent mistrust of personal experience. Those who hold to un-revisable doctrinal propositions may minimize individual Christian experience and look skeptically at testimonies of a direct experience of grace – a personal encounter with the living Christ.
Long-held Southern Baptist positions on soul competency and priesthood of the (individual) believer appear to be vanishing core beliefs within our denomination. I believe that David Rogers clearly articulates that personal experience is under the authority of Scripture as the essence of faith, rather than a list of doctrinal suppositions.
Max: There’s nothing wrong with personal experience. We all have them. But the danger is making my personal experience normative for all Christians. So even if God tells me, explicitly and unequivocally, to move to Bolivia and become a shoemaker, that doesn’t mean He will do that for anyone else.
So experiences don’t bother me. But the idea that God’s voice is somehow faint, mysterious, and easily missed is extremely troubling to me. It essentially comes down to the idea that God tries to accomplish something (in this case, deliver a message) and fails to get it across.
Bill – We are in agreement that personal Christian experience is an individual, specific … well, personal … thing. It’s not a matter of God failing to get anything across to us … I believe it’s more a matter of our unbelief hindering reception of that which He desires in our life. I’ve been in Southern Baptist ranks long enough to know that we have largely relegated the ministry of the Holy Spirit to a back pew … and in so doing, grieved and quenched His presence.
I would not describe it as “faint, mysterious, easily missed,” but it is possible by the dullness of our hearts to not hear God.
Acts 28:27. “For this people’s heart has grown dull, and with their ears they can barely hear, and their eyes they have closed; lest they should see with their eyes and hear with their ears and understand with their heart and turn, and I would heal them.”
And, in case you think this only applies to the unregenerate, the author of Hebrews wrote to his recipients, the same ones of whom he said “yet in your case, beloved, we feel sure of better things—things that belong to salvation,” the following:
“About this we have much to say, and it is hard to explain, since you have become dull of hearing” (Hebrews 5:11).
And as Max insightfully points out, if it were not possible, there would have been no need for Paul to write “Quench not the Spirit.”
I should scissor my comment down to say when one has heard from God.
Bill: No one is saying that your experiences should be the same as ours. I don’t see anyone saying this. Then it is not a personal encounter with God but a one size fits all encounter and that isn’t true even in scripture. Each was different for that person. If no one ever has an encounter, that does not make the one who does more spiritual and once something supernatural has occurred, the last thing one usually thinks or feels is special, it’s quite the opposite.
Now, the Benny Hinn stories or even Kenneth Copeland to name a few? I have a hard time believe these or even reconciling them to scripture.
Bill,
I hear what you are saying I agree in general. You also said:
“”””that God tries to accomplish something (in this case, deliver a message) and fails to get it across.””””
I would ask: does not the whole life of Christ prove in fact that God wants to deliver a message and fails to get it across to many people?
I’m thinking of the message of His love, John 3:16. Or the message of His gift of eternal salvation, 1Peter 3:15.
It not only seems possible that God does not always get His message across to everyone, but indeed, the norm. I think this is partly what the “kenosis” (Phil 2) refers to. God “self-limits” is limitless power.
I’ll confess I don’t completely understand how this can be.
Sounds like the making of a 5 point Calvinist here. Sound the alarms! If we assume God did not fail and yet people do not come to believe…
In seriousness (though you may actually want to review your beliefs on election), I think by “failing to get it across” that the cessationistic side here is referring to the fact not that people in the Bible may refuse to acknowledge God’s commands, but that they always knew something had been spoken and were faced with choice to obey or disobey. The hearers of the gospel may deny the reality or the truthfulness of the Bible (believe or perish, etc.), but those who have heard cannot deny they have heard it spoken.
“”””Sounds like the making of a 5 point Calvinist here.””””
For the sake of full disclosure I identify myself as a “pointless Calvinist.”
Chris,
You said this:
The same way he “calls” a person to be a janitor or a banker or a teacher or a stay at home mom or a million other paths we might take. We spiritualize “the calling” in a way never found in the Bible. At the end of the day it comes down to an evaluation of the person: Are you equipped for the ministry? Do you demonstrate an ability with those things central to the biblical work of the pastor? Are you qualified in terms of the biblical qualifications found in passages like 1 Timothy 3:1-7? Then go for it.
I really did take the postal job for the money.
But do you just pluck someone up and evaluate them for the ministry? You are asking questions of the candidate. But i am asking the candidate why they think they should follow that path.
Is it really [for you] just like choosing to be a banker or a postal worker or a janitor?
You know, i think that is sad.
Is your answer to my question, “Because i am qualified.”?
Gosh, i would like to hear from other ministers out there. Did you get a call from God to the ministry?
Seems to me Paul did.
Seems to me, the Apostles did.
I am not an apostle, though it is worth noting that one apostle became such based on nothing more than casting lots. 🙂 No felt impression, not even a voice of the Spirit, it was a roll of the dice.
Oh, and it was a roll of the dice only after evaluating on the basis of certain criteria. Two people were qualified, so they cast lots between them.
casting lots, hmmm…
maybe.
maybe God chose His own twelfth apostle
It seems like, given the choice, before that trip to Damascus, the church would not have chosen Saul. lol
No Chris, you are not an Apostle, you are a pastor, and I thank you for your service to God and church.
Thanks brother.
I sensed a definite call to ministry when I was a teenager. I was sitting in church not listening to my dad’s sermon and – no way to explain this to the haters – I just suddenly knew that I was supposed to be a preacher/pastor. It was just a sudden awareness that I cannot rationally or convincingly explain to anyone else.
Dave,
Thanks for the reply.
Maybe others were also called this way but schooling or something squeezed out the memory of it.
Dave,
What would you say to the person who comes to you with an interest in pursuing ministry who has not had an experience like yours? I know plenty who would say an individual is not qualified for ministry unless they have had that subjective sense of “calling” even though such a subjective sense is never mentioned in Scripture as one of the qualifications for the office.
I would ask them why they wanted to be in the ministry.
Why did you Chris?
The fact is that from Genesis to Revelation, God spoke to his people. It is also true that seldom are we told how he spoke. Sometimes, we know it was with his finger by writing on a tablet (only once). Sometimes it was dreams and visions.
But the vast majority of those incidences when God speaks are undefined. So, what are we to think? That these instances all involve the audible voice of God coming from heaven as to Jesus? Perhaps, but I doubt it.
It is far more likely that the indwelling Spirit of God communicates with our regenerated spirit within. While it might not be the best way to put it, “God spoke to my heart” is more accurate than most would admit.
The indwelling Spirit communicates to my redeemed, regenerated and now receptive spirit.
“It is also true that seldom are we told how he spoke.”
We are usually told how, and it’s usually in clear, distinct, direct ways.
Dave, If we cannot prove from Scripture that God lead anyone through “personal impressions,” then we believe God leads Christians through personal impressions because we believe God leads Christians through personal impressions. If it’s not in the text, then we do not believe God leads through personal impressions due to exegesis, but based on our experience alone. We cannot teach Christians based on our experience alone, or based on silence in Scripture. We cannot argue, “The Bible doesn’t say how they were lead,” which means “they must have been lead through personal impressions from the Spirit.” That’s a leap that the text cannot substantiate.
Jared,
So you advise your people not to pray to God for help in deciding which path to take: “Is this the one to marry?”, Should I take this job?”, “Should i quit my job and be a missionary?”, “Should I buy this house?”, etc.
So you are saying that God does not get involved in our big [or little] decisions, or if He does, tell me how I can know His will.
Thanks.
Mike, it’d be nice if both sides could exercise some grace here. I could argue, “So, you’re saying that God gives more revelation, that the canon isn’t closed, that the Bible isn’t sufficient for faith and practice, etc.”
Of course I believe Christians should pray about decisions. They should ask for God’s guidance about everything. What I’m arguing against is that Christians should seek or try to understand some impression as a confirmation one way or the other for a decision. God leads His people through His Word. He’s also given us a conscience, and freedom to live for His glory where He is silent. If God doesn’t audibly tell you something different, or if Scripture is silent explicitly and implicitly, then you’re free to do what you want.
After all, do you wait on the Spirit’s voice for every tiny decision you make? Or, do you pick and choose what decisions you need the Spirit’s subjective help in making? If you’re free in Christ to make any decision apart from “waiting on the Spirit’s subjective leading,” then you’re free to make all decisions apart from waiting on the Spirit’s subjective leading. If you have enough God-given wisdom to decide which decisions to wait on the Spirit’s voice for, then you have enough wisdom to make those decisions yourself.
You ask, “How do I know God’s will?” After exhaustively explaining salvation (Rom. 1-11), Paul says in Rom. 12:1-2, “I appeal to you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to present your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and acceptable to God, which is your spiritual worship. 2 Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that by testing you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and acceptable and perfect.”
Your mind must be renewed by God’s Word.
I am not saying we have to “get a word from God” about every minute decision of our life. Indeed, using the principles of the Word of God, our sanctified common sense, and the dictates of our conscience, we are “free” to decide. But this does not mean that God never leads us in other ways, even in ways that are often counter-intuitive, especially for the unregenerate mind.
The main purpose in hearing God, however, is not guidance for decision-making, but relationship with our Heavenly Father.
You are right, David. The difference between our positions is minuscule here.
We all agree that the revelation of God is complete in Christ and in the Word.
We all agree that there is no new revelation of authoritative truth today.
We all agree that the excesses of some movements is foolish and deceptive.
We all agree that we should be led by the Word and its principles on a daily basis.
No one (or at least few among the Baptist continuationists) wants a word from the Lord about whether to wear the tan pants or or the olive pants today.
What we differ on is whether the Spirit gives specific and personal leading on issues of import.
Did I receive a specific call to be a minister?
Did God lead me to this woman whom he had prepared to be my wife?
Does God lead us step by step or do we follow the “read the Bible and do what you want” idea that Johnny Mac and others have advocated?
Our differences here are smaller than our discussion would indicate.
And yet I have already given a number of passages that indicate just that: He does lead by means of personal impressions. If you refuse to recognize that, I don’t know what else to do. That is what is making me frustrated.
David, tell me the exact phrase that means “impressions” in the above passages you’ve cited. Explain to me the exegesis.
Jared, That is sort of circular logic based on your a priori assumptions. You seem to make assumptions, carry them back and then use them to deny any evidence that does not fit those assumptions.
I am simply saying that the Spirit of God who indwells believers communicates to the regenerated and redeemed human spirit, quickened, restored and made receptive to the Spirit. This is not just sanctifying our feelings.
It is a recognition that (as happened in Scripture) the Spirit speaks to our spirits in clear ways. We may know be able to describe those things as clearly as we like.
You continue to harp on the “feelings” thing. I can tell you that when I have heard that still, small voice, it is much more than an emotion. It can almost be like the formation of words in my mind that I know are the leading of God.
But you have set certain narrow categories and continue to try to stuff the discussion into your narrow categories. It would be well if you would try to understand what we are asserting rather than try to force your categories on us.
“It is a recognition that (as happened in Scripture) the Spirit speaks to our spirits in clear ways.”
But how often do people really experience this in clear ways? Most of the time when I hear people say, “The Lord is leading me to…” what they really mean is “this is what I think we should do.” There are other times when people really believe their impression comes from God, not with themselves, yet they still wrestle to confirm “is this what I was told and is it God who told me.” Most of the time, however, people stumble around wondering how in the world they are to find God’s will for their lives, how to be guided by the Spirit throughout their decisions. People like Blackaby have taught them to think this way.
There is nothing clear about the Spirit’s leading in these ways. Nor do I think there is anything biblical in the notion.
Dave, the inner testimony of the Spirit is real and biblical (concerning salvation), but can we take this further by arguing we’re also led by His inner voice concerning various decisions?
Also, I’m a Christian. The Spirit indeed testifies to my spirit that I’m saved, but He isn’t telling me which decisions to make in my daily life, beyond the testimony of Scripture. What does this say about me?
Maybe that you are not listening?
I am not sure why you limit the Spirit’s testimony ONLY to salvation. That is not biblically warranted from what I have studied.
Dave, I’m trying to say what the text says (Rom. 8:16). It doesn’t speak of the Spirit inwardly telling us what decisions to make. Also, how can I “not be listening” to the Spirit’s inner testimony? Does Paul hint at all that ignoring the Spirit’s testimony is possible? I don’t think he does. In Rom. 8:15-16 he says that the Spirit causes us to cry out “Abba Father.” This isn’t voluntary.
Furthermore, His “inner testimony” with our Spirit is in appropriating the Word to our lives. When the Word describes a Christian, the Spirit testifies to our spirit that the Word is describing us. This is spiritually discerned (1 Cor. 2:14). “We know that we are from God.”
“18 We know that everyone who has been born of God does not keep on sinning, but he who was born of God protects him, and the evil one does not touch him. 19 We know that we are from God, and the whole world lies in the power of the evil one. 20 And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life” (1 John 5:18-20).”
Dave, how did God speak during the time between Malachi and Matthew?
I don’t know. The Bible doesn’t say.
Can’t you feel it?
Liberal.
No, Mark, I will go one worse. DEMOCRAT!
But we know He did speak. The stories of Simeon and Anna give credible evidence that he did speak. In Simeon’s case it was obviously by the Holy Spiritas was, no doubt, the same for Anna.
David,
Thanks for the article. I am in agreement with you. I believe that the Scripture that tells us “The just shall live by faith” is a reminder that we are not left to just figure it out on our own. If I really believed my calling was nothing more than deciding I was qualified and liked preaching, I would have quit a long time ago.
Steve in Montana
The whole question of ministry call is an interesting, somewhat related, though largely ancillary question, as I understand it, to the main point of my post.
I will thus probably not jump in directly to that question here on this post.
I have blogged previously on this question here, though, in case any one wonders what I think:
http://loveeachstone.blogspot.com/2007/03/missionary-call.html
Hey, folks, at least we aren’t debated CALVINISM! This is much more fun.
Also, isn’t it time we got rid of those policies at the IMB?
http://www.str.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=9724
Can anyone find fault with this model?
No mention of the ministry of the indwelling Holy Spirit. Kinda gets back to that old line from Driscoll, “Father, Son and Holy Bible.”
Basically the same as Friesen.
My question is, Did the people who were led by the Holy Spirit in the verses I give from Acts near the top of this comment stream follow this model?
My answer is, Yes, to some extent, but there was another element of the “subjective” leading of the Holy Spirit thrown in the mix as well.
God wants us to be more dependent on him, less on ourselves. This model says God wants us to be more dependent on ourselves. Isn’t that close to humanism with a religious or Baptist twist to it? Where in scripture does it say “God helps those who help themselves.” or God will teach you to be wise and make your own decisions? I’m not saying we pray Lord what outfit should I wear today or what food should I eat, what car should I drive etc. but he also does not abandon us when we are here to fulfill his purposes which is to bring people the Good News and make disciples.
God, like any parent, wants His children to grow and mature. There’s a reason Solomon spent so much time talking about wisdom. There’s a reason James told us to pray for reason.
It is far more biblical to depend upon God for wisdom that it is to depend upon Him for decisions.
It is possible to realize that we are dependent on God for every breath we take, and not have to ask Him for permission to breathe.
But Bill, what is the Biblical definition of wisdom? Isn’t it seeing things God’s way? It’s not relying on my own wisdom. The wisdom in scripture is supernatural is it not? So are the decisions I make really ones I would normally make in my own wisdom by God teaching me? I agree that God teaches, I just think God teaches us to depend more on Him not less. I’m not saying this is what you mean but it would result in less dependence not more, the opposite of what scripture teaches when read as scripture interpreting scripture. No verse reads standing alone.
Every breath we take is by God’s grace, or unmerited favor. Again, as I said above, I’m not speaking of every little life even like a heart beating or breathing. That’s rather going into extremes.
“No mention of the ministry of the indwelling Holy Spirit”
That sounds good, but what does it mean? Why do we think that God in the OT age speaks clearly and unequivocally, but in the church age God’s voice is faint and mixed up in the jumble of our own thoughts, emotions, and desires?
If we’re going to teach this it has got to be more than a mishmash of vague churchy sounding phrases and “you’ll know it when it happens.”
Believe me when I tell you this is frustrating a lot of people who grow up in the church thinking God should be giving them messages and defeating them when it isn’t happening.
“DRISCOLL”
You started it!
“2. God uses obstacles, roadblocks, problems and circumstances to redirect our paths.”
How is that “clear”, Bill? Ok, let me rephrase: other than me banging my head against repeated doors and windows and speed bumps, how is that “clear”?
Greg: An obstacle, roadblock, problem, or circumstance is not speaking. God can redirect my path anyway He likes. But if the bridge is out ahead, and I have to detour, I cannot now say “God told me to take the detour”.
Fair enough. I just think that particular portion of the model is weak. Since you asked.
Another good verse:
1 John 2:27. But the anointing that you received from him abides in you, and you have no need that anyone should teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about everything, and is true, and is no lie—just as it has taught you, abide in him.
” … abide in him.”
Yes, another very helpful verse. Brother Rogers, as I mentioned in an upstream comment, there appears to be a growing mistrust in some SBC circles regarding individual, personal experience … an abiding faith, an encounter with the living Lord, a personal relationship and fellowship with Christ … love worth finding, as your father used to say.
Probably one of my favorite writings dealing with the way God speaks to us came from John Piper (who, as has been noted, is a continuationist): “The Morning I Heard the Voice of God” http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/taste-see-articles/the-morning-i-heard-the-voice-of-god
This is where our two perspectives converge. I totally agree with everything Piper says in this article. It’s just, for me, that does not eliminate the possibility of God speaking in other ways as well. I do totally agree, though, that we should in no way belittle or fail to get excited about the wonderful way He speaks through Scripture. I would add, however, that our understanding and spiritual perception of the truth of Scripture is increased by a deep relationship with the Holy Spirit, who takes the Scripture and opens our eyes to what it says and burns it in our heart.
David Rogers, I believe you are right on target with the thrust of this post. I find interesting the dialogue and conclusion reached in the Jerusalem Council in Acts 15 regarding the issue of the Gentile believers, “It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us” (15:28). The decision of this group of believers (specifically the apostles) was made in dialogue with the scripture (cf. Amos 9:11-12) without the scripture giving a clear command on what to do on the subject.
In what has been called the “Wesleyan Quadralateral,” says that believers can hear from God through four main sources of authority: reason, experience, tradition, and the scripture. Scripture is objective source by which the others are gauged. If experience, reason, or church tradition conflicts with the scripture, then the other sources of authority have proven to be wrong on this specific point. But the Spirit is not limited in how He speaks — through nature (cf. Ps 19:1-4), through a vision or dream, extraodinary circumstances, through the combined wisdom of other believers, even through a donkey’s mouth if He so chooses. but all the rest of these are weighed by what the scripture teaches.
In my context, I find that Mormons want to rely on “the Holy Ghost’s leading” on whether the teaching in the Book of Mormon is true (Moroni 10:3-5). My response is, “There are many spirits (even false ones), and the devil himself is ‘a liar and the father of lies’ (John 8:44). So even if you receive some inner leading, the only guarantee that it is indeed the Spirit is through the “Word of Truth,” the inspired Word of God (2 Tim 3:15-16). Any message that conflicts with this scripture is not from God, even if “an angel from heaven” revealed it (Gal 1:6-9).”
There are many areas on which the scriptures do not speak, and we need wisdom — God’s wisdom. God provides His wisdom through many different sources, but all of these other sources must be judged by His standard revealed in the scripture.
I am guilty from time to time of posting snippy smart-alec comments. I have seen some others also lose control and do the same thing.
It is great to read through these 150+ comments and, aside from Dave calling Mark a Democrat, there wasn’t one thing that made me cringe. Though the debate is heavy it is a blessing to see Christian brothers and sisters arguing like….well, Christian brothers and sisters.
Grace abounds, to God be the glory!
Amen!