I remember sitting with my father at the SBC many years ago, when we were considering the motion to change our governing documents to disfellowship churches that took a soft stand on homosexuality. I will never forget what he said, as some argued that the action violated principles of autonomy and Baptist polity.
They may be right that this is a departure from Baptist polity. But I can tell you that twenty years ago, no one in the Baptist world would have believed that we would be having a meeting to talk about what to do with Baptist churches that said homosexuality was okay.
The world is changing, and it is changing rapidly. There was a time when a judge in the confirmation process or a politician running for office would be forced to resign if he was found out to be homosexual. Today, if a candidate stated that he believed homosexuality to be a sin, it would be treated as a scandal and he would not likely be either confirmed or elected.
It’s a new world.
And Christians are having a hard time trying to figure it out. Some have adopted the “kill ’em all and let God sort ’em out” (well, figuratively at least) attitude toward homosexuality and homosexuals. There are the extreme versions of this – the disgusting Westboro Baptist folks and the rantings of Charles Worley. But even within the more sane (and Christ-honoring) branches of the church, there are many who lead the discussion with condemnation and disdain, not only for the acts of homosexuality but for homosexuals themselves.
Others have adopted the common but disastrous tradition of the American church and capitulated to culture. Lo and behold, some have found that the clear teachings of the Bible about homosexuality aren’t so clear after all. The Second Commandment forbids us to make our own gods, but some are doing it anyway. They have created a Jesus who is in complete contradistinction to the Christ of Scriptures. This fictional Jesus is all love-all the time and would never think of calling homosexuality a sin! He accepts us all as we are and in great Hallmark fashion says, “Don’t ever change.”
Most of us wander in between these extremes, trying to find a balance between loving homosexuals while still standing against their sin which we believe is contrary both to nature and to the revelation of scripture. It is no easy task.
- Sometimes we meet a person struggling with same-sex attraction and we want to reach out in love.
- Sometimes we see a brazen and obnoxious advocate of the “gay-agenda” who inflames our religious zeal and our political passions.
It is not going to get any easier. It is hard to envision popular opinion conforming again to biblical revelation and as opinion shifts, we who hold to scripture will be viewed as extremists and homophobes and merchants of hate.
It is not going to get any easier, but there are some principles that can guide us. I’d like to share a few. There is little that is stunningly original here, but simply a reminder of biblical principles that can guide us.
1) We are pro-homosexual!
No, put down your stones. We are not for homosexuality, but we must be FOR homosexuals. They are not our enemy, they are our mission field. We do not battle against flesh and blood, Paul told us. Our battle is against the spiritual powers that deceive homosexuals and bind them into a destructive lifestyle!
This must be the bedrock of any biblical approach to the homosexual issue and I’m not sure we always remember it. Homosexuals are broken people who need Christ, not our anger or scorn. I’ve been in the church all my life, and I think it would be hard to argue that the evangelical church has been a welcoming place for homosexuals.
If a flaming, out-of-the-closet homosexual sashayed into your church next Sunday, how would he be received? Or, more to the point, what if one of the men in your church announced he was gay? What would be the response?
We cannot forget that the homosexual is a victim of deceit that can only be corrected by the light of God’s truth; he is enslaved by sin and can only be freed by Christ. He is not our enemy, he is our battleground! We do not battle against him, but we battle against the forces of darkness on his behalf.
2) We must not compromise the Word to earn favor in the world – this is a hill to die on!
There was a time when the world and church at least swam in the same ocean on this issue. Now, those who follow scripture and declare homosexuality to be sinful are disdained and insulted by our culture. But we have been down the road of cultural compromise before (and often) and we cannot do it again.
Christianity was born in a hostile climate and has often thrived under opposition, oppression and even persecution. That may be our future.
But we cannot glorify God or advance his work by compromising his truth for the sake of popularity. If the world hates us for our stands for Christ’s Word, then rejoice. This is a hill on which to die, a moral stand on which we cannot compromise.
Same-sex sex is a sin against God and we cannot bless what God has cursed!
3) The Gospel of Christ is the power of God to transform homosexuals!
The only hope for the salvation and transformation of a homosexual is the gospel of Jesus Christ – the same as for all of us.
I don’t have to change a homosexual. I don’t have to convince him. I don’t have to prosecute him or out-argue him. I have to introduce him (or her) to Christ who is the only one who can change lives.
4) We do not live in a theocracy, nor is that our aim.
This is hard for Americans to understand and accept, since we have become so used, over the years, to a government that is sympathetic to our beliefs and goals. If something is wrong, we assume it ought also be sanctioned by the government.
Christians in the Roman Empire did not expect the Caesar to promote or defend the faith. They just prayed he would stay out of their way while they spread the gospel. Chinese Christians don’t expect the communist government to enact their convictions as law. They just want to do their work with as little public interference as possible.
In Israel, God’s law was the law of the land and it was publicly enforced. Homosexuality carried the harshest of penalties – death. But so did adultery and idolatry and Sabbath-breaking and a host of other sins. It was a theocratic society. America is not a theocracy and it is not our purpose to make it one.
5) We do live in a representative democracy, and we must be the salt and light in our world.
We have a privilege that the Christians in the early church didn’t have – we have a voice in our government. We get to speak out freely and we get to vote our conscience. We would be both foolish and ungodly to squander the opportunity we have to influence our culture in a positive way. We are salt to slow the natural decaying effects of sin and we are light to show the way.
As long as America remains a free and representative democracy, we will walk a tightrope between competing truths. We do not live in a theocracy and it is not our goal to impose one, but we also have to wield the influence that God has given us. Some fall off in one direction and some in the other. More than one church or pastor has conflated the interests of God’s Kingdom with the interests of the US of A. It happens. On the other hand, those who would tell Christians to abandon their place of influence are foolish.
The homosexual issue is a great example of this tightrope. I believe that standing for God’s intent for marriage, opposing homosexual marriage and resisting the more radical agenda of some in the homosexual community is an important role. However, we walk on dangerous ground when we speak of criminalizing homosexuality or denying basic civil rights to homosexuals.
This will always be a difficult balancing act for biblical Christians.
6) Cliches don’t work and should be avoided.
When Charles Worley’s rantings (I refuse to call that preaching) went viral, several of his members defended him in interviews. One of them made me cringe when she said, “God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve.”
God put Job through deep waters for his own purposes. His three friends showed up and made things worse by throwing a litany of cliches at him. They didn’t help Job and they don’t help in dealing with sexuality issues.
This is a serious issue and needs serious thought, not just pronouncements and cliches. We need to approach this issue with calm, caring, biblically-based rationality, not with epithets, cliches or angry pronouncements. They may make us feel better but they will not accomplish the goal we are here for – to lead homosexuals to Christ!
7) The “nature” argument is vain and silly.
How much effort have Christians devoted to maintaining the concept that homosexual desire is a conscious choice people make? It is a wasted effort. Certainly, homosexual behavior is a choice. I may have a natural tendency to lust when a beautiful woman walks by, but I have a choice whether to act on that. But the idea that homosexual desire or orientation is a conscious choice just does not pass the reality test.
Is homosexuality genetic? Is it rooted in parental relationships? Childhood abuse? Some other unknown factor? At this point, we just don’t know.
But those who struggle with homosexual desire are pretty unanimous that this was not something they freely chose.
Why have we fought the “nature” battle so passionately? Because advocates of homosexuality have claimed that the fact that homosexuality is natural means it is okay. “God made me this way and God doesn’t make mistakes.” Nothing could be further from the truth.
Nature is fallen and cursed because of human sin. The New Testament uses natural as a designation for the sinful, unredeemed state. Pride comes naturally to me, and greed, and anger, and lust. Nature does not imply goodness, but sin. If homosexual advocates knew the Bible, they would not use the nature argument!
The Christians I have read propose some variation of factors as the genesis of homosexual desire. Could there be a genetic disorder or some other physical cause? Perhaps. There are likely family issues, often a dysfunctional relationship with a same-sex parent. Some have posited that sexual abuse is a common denominator in many homosexuals. I’m not an expert.
The issue is whether homosexuality was part of God’s created order (it was not), not whether it is a part of the fallen world we now live in. And whether homosexuality is a congenital disorder caused by the workings of sin in a fallen world, or whether it is caused by a combination of environmental factors, the vast majority of people with homosexual desires do not choose those desires.
The choice they have is whether they will act on them, or if they will obey God.
8.) We need to argue for real tolerance.
The most intolerant people I encounter are those who proclaim tolerance as the ultimate virtue. Hate merchants like Dan Savage have revealed that in many ways, Christians are more tolerant of gays than gays are of biblical Christians. Many homosexual advocates have become the mirror images of the Westboro bunch – as tolerant of biblical conviction as Westboro is of gays.
We need to define tolerance rightly. Tolerance is respecting the right of people to disagree and live their lives by their convictions. The intolerant tolerance advocated by the left in America demands not that their views be respected, but that we acquiesce to them. They have no tolerance for those of us who want to be loving toward homosexuals but maintain that it is a sin against God.
We need to argue for a tolerant tolerance that contrasts with the rigidly intolerant views of our predominant culture. If we kindly but firmly point out how intolerant the merchants of tolerance have become, it is possible that we can gain some ground at this point.
9) We must live with gracious confidence – Creation is on our side!
As the world moves farther in the homosexuality-is-okay direction, we sometimes get defensive and fearful. But we should walk in confidence as we proclaim truth. There are two things that are true that can help us walk in godly and gracious confidence.
God created us male and female and called his creation very good. What we proclaim is part and parcel of the natural and created order of God. We advocate what God intended.
10) Another reason for gracious confidence: History is on our side!
God is at work to bring an end to sin and to bring all things under obedience to Christ. While this world might be in rebellion today, one day every knee will bow and every tongue confess, and the kingdoms of this world will become the Kingdom of our Lord.
It is common to hear the phrase “history is on our side” from those who are promoting homosexuality and homosexual marriage and such things. That is only true if you look at the nations rage in disobedience and assume it will always be like that. It will not.
The power of God is at work to make sinful people like Jesus. Whatever the present holds, the future will be won by the glory of Christ and homosexuality like all other sin will be banished from earth.
Conclusion
Yes, it is never going to be easy. Homosexuality is one of the thorny issues of our time. Biblical truth and cultural belief run in direct opposition on this one.
It is going to be one of those watershed moments for the church. How will we respond? Will we sacrifice our convictions to find popularity? Will we go along to get along? Or, will we respond to sin-broken people with disdain and anger and rejection, or will we love them in Christ and try to help them find freedom in Christ?
This issue isn’t going away any time soon.
We’ve worked this one pretty hard, but I decided to put my thoughts in order.
Feel free to tell me how insightful and unassailably biblical my ideas are!!
Dave, Naturally, I read a lot of what is written about this subject, as one of my passions is to help the church clarify what we should or should not be doing regarding homosexuality, particularly among our own members. Most who read me here know that it was a struggle for me and that the wounds were enhanced by the reaction of the church. Still . . . I see the church as the last great hope for truth and compassion and the hoped-for change. That said, I consider what you have written here to be one of the finer… Read more »
Thank you, Thom. Actually, as I wrote this, I found myself wondering what you might think.
Dave, I think this is a good article. It’s very similar to my position. I do have one question though. You said, “we walk on dangerous ground when we speak of criminalizing homosexuality or denying basic civil rights to homosexuals.” I don’t understand why you made this statement. You believe that homosexuality is unnatural, sinful, and immoral. You also believe that Christians have a responsibility to be Christians in the civil realm. Why then are you arguing that Christians “walk on dangerous ground” when they speak of criminalizing homosexuality. First, I’ve been clear that I believe homosexuality should be illegal,… Read more »
In a society like ours, our efforts should be put to proclaiming truth to the lost, but not to criminalizing certain types of sinful behavior.
Why would you put so much passion into the issue of criminalization?
Dave, I’m not putting passion into it, but if a Christian wants to do that, why would that be, “walking on dangerous ground”? I agree that “our efforts should be put to proclaiming truth to the lost, but not to criminalizing certain types of sinful behavior.” Does this mean that you think Christians shouldn’t have been involved in ending the slave trade, or shouldn’t be involved in ending abortion today? Of course not. So, why can’t Christians be involved in the civil realm against homosexuality? I understand it’s not your cup of tea, but should you tell other Christians they’re… Read more »
Jared, I would agree with Dave here as well. And I would dare say that the vast majority of younger or Reformed-minded guys in the SBC would as well. I think you are quite far out of the mainstream in your thinking on criminalization. While I agree with laws against abortion and against slavery, I do think there is a vast difference in regard to criminality between those issues and homosexual behavior. With the former, there is a clear, unwilling party who is subjected to the actions of another party. That unwilling party needs to be kept from harm. But… Read more »
D. R., thanks for the comment. I’m not real concerned with what the majority believes about this issue. I’m concerned with the arguments being made. I can be convinced against my position. I haven’t heard many arguments to the contrary though, other than “you’re in the minority” and “we’re not a theocracy.”
Assuming a Christian still understands the church’s mission as primarily a gospel one, and he or she is involved in the civil realm against homosexuality, would you tell him or her that he or she is walking on dangerous ground? That’s what Dave and I are discussing.
“…there are two willing participants who engage in a behavior which, while I believe is immoral, I do not believe can be criminalized based on a purely religious viewpoint.”
That same argument could be made regarding prostitution, yet it is in the public interest that it is illegal. It degrades the participants, destroys families, and spreads disease. One might make the same argument about drug users and their dealers.
Seriously, that is rather a weak argument.
Jared, in these discussions of homosexuality and homosexuals you have (a) invariably advocated the criminalization of the same (while dodging the crucial question of what penalties would be exactied), (b) put homosexuals in justaposition to felons and pedophiles, (c) compared criminalization of homosexuals and homosexuality with ending slavery and abortion, and (d) tossed in for good measure bestiality, followed by, (d) your delcaration of love for your neighbor.
Please tell me that you see at least a little something odd in this mix?
William, I really don’t want to rehash this with you again. Nevertheless, I’ll try to explain my position again. a) I believe homosexuality should be illegal. I believe adultery should be illegal. Do I believe all Christians have to believe this? No. This is my opinion. Concerning the penalties that should be enacted, I don’t know? Civilly, it’s penalties should be less than that of pedophilia and bestiality, but I do think it’s a sexual perversion. b) I’ve argued that homosexuality, pedophilia, and bestiality are sexual perversions, but I never said the civil penalties should be the same. c) I… Read more »
William, I also think pornography should be illegal.
Brother Thornton: You mentioned Jared’s juxtaposition of homosexuals and pedophiles, and I would call your attention to the fact that NAMBLA usually has its signs at Gay Parades. I have seen them in news reports and pictures. NAMBLA is the North American Man Boy Love Association. Whether they still operate under that title or not, the pedophiles generally join in in such activities, claiming that what they do is loving, etc. But as a formerly Licensed Professional Counselor who was moved to get a degree in counseling due to having five cases of incest in three mos and who wrote… Read more »
This reply is to Jared’s reply of 2:09.
Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the historical record when Christians have had civil power and how it was exercised. Your philosophy of using the state is dangerous. Perhaps in time you will learn enough to be weaned from it.
I think the answer is not always as simple as just that we are free to do something. Not everything we are free to do should be done, Christian or not. I’m not sure what the purpose of taking a stand towards criminalization would be, other than to perhaps make it more clear how one stands. It will never be criminalized. We’ve gone too far down the road of acceptance. I think seeking to criminalize would only further close the door for the church to ever be of significant help to people who struggle. I’ve been involved in para-church ministries… Read more »
Thom, I appreciate your opinion and your experience. That being said, I don’t think the argument that we’ve gone too far down the road of acceptance is a good argument. I also don’t think the opinion of outsiders or their stereotypes of us is a good barometer for what Christians should and should not be involved in civilly. Furthermore, poor practices in the church should not discourage one from loving one’s neighbor in the civil realm. Believing that homosexual acts should be illegal may indeed create barriers, but no more than the church’s belief that unrepentant homosexuality will send people… Read more »
I do not understand your enthusiasm for criminalizing such a thing, Jared. I think we have bigger fish to fry that advocating incarceration for homosexuals.
Dave, I’m not that enthusiastic about it. No law-makers are asking my opinion. I understand that you disagree with me. The reason why I commented on this article is because I don’t think you and other Christians have enough evidence biblically to say that Christians are on dangerous ground if they seek to make certain immoral behaviors illegal. I agree with you that it’s not the responsibility of the church to do this, but to say that individual Christians shouldn’t do this is biblically unfounded in my opinion. Christians are free to do this. They’re not “on dangerous ground” if… Read more »
“It will never be criminalized. We’ve gone too far down the road of acceptance. I think seeking to criminalize would only further close the door for the church to ever be of significant help to people who struggle.”
Not so. Pagan cultures (Greeks, Romans, Celtics, etc.) were widely accepting of homosexual activity. Yet, as Christianity overcame the culture, there were laws passed against this immoral activity.
Jared, I have to agree with David here as well, though I have perhaps less passion against your position than he has. I am basically a fighter by nature. I don’t give up easily or back down often. However, I do feel like it is time to realize that homosexuality is here to stay as a part and parcel of American life. That genie is not going back in the bottle. The next great challenge to the rising tide of homosexuality in America will come directly from God. That’s how it has always been when a nation embraces homosexuality. We… Read more »
Dave, You said, “””In a society like ours, our efforts should be put to proclaiming truth to the lost, but not to criminalizing certain types of sinful behavior.””” Are you against closing down the “Bath Houses” in San Francisco that was helping spread AIDS like wild-fire?” I wish someone besides myself would at least mention that many here on this post have a view of homosexuality given to them by Hollywood and the Media, and not as it actually exists on the streets. What is criminal behavior and what is not is a worthy argument, but I don’t know if… Read more »
On this point I agree with you. I’ve written often in this blog about the warped picture of the homosexual lifestyle presented by culture, Hollywood, the media and pandering politicians. As a rule, “deathstyle” is a more appropriate description. Unfortunately many in the church fall for the false picture and become numb to people around them who want out.
This is a great post, Dave. Thank you for sharing the truth that requires some thought and not some cliches. Truly, faster than we expected, the world is changing for Christians in the U.S. We need to realize that we are living in a pagan society, more similar to the early Christians than to our grandparents’ generation. I’d add to your list of points that we need to learn how to do apology again, as in the defense of the faith. Not just reasons why God exists, but defense for Christian belief and living.
I think this is one of the divides between young and old. People of my generation and older still expected the USA to be, at least, a Christianized nation that reflected our values and honored our presence.
Young whippersnappers are probably more aware of the fact that this is a post-Christian culture, essentially secular with empty homage given to religion.
That is a shock to us old fogeys, but we have to get used to it. We are living in Rome and Caesar doesn’t like us.
“”””We are living in Rome and Caesar doesn’t like us.””””” Dave, I think that is a very good point. I also, if I can chance to speak for you, do not think it is a statement of surrender, but simply dealing with a different reality. Twenty years ago, I would have (and did) advocate for a “revival of America’s Christian heritage.” I felt that was what God was leading the church to do. David Barton provided what I thought was indisputable evidence in support of that cause. I don’t think that is a wise direction to take anymore. I think… Read more »
In order to understand why we are encountering such anomalies as your father noted years ago, David, we need to do a lot of reading and research outside the box, so to speak. Nancy Pearcey, in her work, Total Truth (Wheaton, Ill.: Crossway Books, 2004), p.127, has noted that “…, it is imperative for seminaries to broaden the education of pastors to include courses on intellectual history, training future pastors to critique the dominant ideologies of our day.” Like it or not Apologetics are becoming a major concern today. Suggestive is the experience of a family whose son at the… Read more »
I am afraid that one of the reasons for our retreat from the public arena has been the way we argued there. We used cliches and angry pronouncements, far too often.
Dave,
Unfortunately, I have found the opposite to be true many times. I have found Christians to be the most logical voices in the argument and the other side being those who use emotions and cliches. The reality is that the vast majority of American society is absolutely ignorant when it comes to logical argumentation. As one of my friends says, “You simply can’t win an argument using logic these days.” I think he is right. I’ve certainly seen that in Church experiences and definitely even on this very site!
I talk about that in the post, but I do think that the church has been guilty of the “Adam and Steve” kind of approach – lightweight and unconvincing pronouncements and such. But you are right, that we are often painted unfairly. A young man in my previous church exited the closet. I talked to him. We had a very cordial conversation in which I told him that we wanted to be there for him and love him, but that we could not condone what he was doing. Later I saw him on some social network say he was “kicked… Read more »
Dave, What I have learned from others who have been kicked out of churches is that it usually is caused by a perceived lack of repentance. It’s a problem of great expectations on both sides. When a struggler seeks help, he is usually feeling great hope and determination that he will not fall again. He expresses that and the church embraces his repentance. When temptation presents itself and he weakens and falls, the church often sees that as unrepentance, as if an instant overcoming was possible, which for most, is not true. Unfortunately, the church can become a scapegoat for… Read more »
I think bumper-sticker, t-shirt, Twitter-slogan theology/religion has harmed us a great deal in the Church. Too much gets boiled down so that it can quick-digested and we lose much. The “Adam and Steve” thing is one of those–among several others.
It makes a great bumper sticker but does not help anyone, really.
I was born and am, to this day (albeit much less hormone-driven) a heterosexual male. Subject to the normal desires and drives. I have had to subject them, and the actions toward which they push me, to the terms & conditions placed upon them by God’s word. I cannot plead that God made me this way so it’s OK to act on the desire when and where I want. I must obey. I cannot speak for women & their desires, nor for anyone whose primary desire is for those of the same sex. That is my position, and the one… Read more »
Sometime in the early nineties, a church in the association where I then served (not the same church) sent a youth group on a Mission trip to Atlanta. There they ran into a fellow dying of aids, who told them to go back and tell their friends that that lifestyle had cost him his life. One could tell that that made a tremendous impression on those young people. The truth is a lot of money and power is behind this effort to legalize sodomy, and it stems from unlikely sources. A certain group has power and they want sexual freedom,… Read more »
And, incidentally, what would you, as a pastor, do, were one of your members to admit living in an openly homosexual, and continuing, relationship?
Jared . . . If a church member came to you and confessed he had fallen to the temptation and engaged in homosexuality and he wanted your help, would your first inclination be that you wished you had the power to throw him in prison? I hope not, but it does appear so. I guess we just disagree. I do not think truth us devalued by compassion.
Thom, do you really think that’s a fair representation of what I’ve said here? It’s the government’s job to “throw people in jail,” not mine. Since homosexuality isn’t against the civil law, the thought of civil justice wouldn’t even cross my mind. As a Christian, my first inclination would be to pray for this individual, and to do my best to hold him or her accountable to Scripture. A repentant Christian who struggles with homosexuality is welcome to the Lord’s table. An unrepentant Christian who succumbs to homosexuality must be lovingly disciplined. So long as there was evidence of repentance… Read more »
Jared, I apologize. Indeed, the answer you have given above shows that you would respond in grace while recognizing the seriousness of the person’s sin. Who could possibly hope for more. I hope you will accept my apology and I thank you for expressing so well how you should and would respond.
Thom, of course I accept your apology brother. This is a sensitive and difficult issue. Our experiences also inform our perception of others and their arguments. It’s easy to misunderstand one another.
Keep on keeping on brother, for God’s glory alone.
Thom, Normally, you are a well-reasoned, civil person. But to suppose that anything Jared said would mean that someone who comes to him for help would be “thrown in jail” if Jared had that power, is simply not a fair reading of anything Jared has said, in my opinion. I could ask you, “if a church member came to you and said that they had just murdered your family brutally,” would your first inclination be, “I love you, we will work this out?” My first inclination would be . . . well, I don’t want to really think what it… Read more »
Thom,
As a follow-up, in case you are not aware, those homosexuals advocating that they be recognized as “normal, everyday citizens wanting society to validate their relationship,” are not “coming to preachers for help with their sin.”
Frank, Jared was not talking about same-sex marriage or civil rights. He was talking about criminalizing homosexuality. I don’t think I was unreasonable to ask that question. If his opinions about criminalizing homosexuality are known, however, it is doubtful anyone struggling with homosexual brokenness will seek his help. I would certainly have been afraid to do so. I don’t think I was out-of-line to ask, but I am sorry you were offended.
Thom, just for the record, I wouldn’t ever mention my opinion concerning the civil laws from the pulpit. My responsibility as a pastor and Christian in the local church is not social reform, but gospel proclamation. It might come up in daily conversation, although in over 12 years of ministry, it never has.
JARED,
a little nun-sense from the other side of the Tiber:
““If you judge people, you have no time to love them.”
? Mother Teresa
Christianne,
If you do NOT judge people’s behavior you do NOT love them.”
Mother Teresa was a wonderful social worker and a terrible theologian.
I tell you; but unless you repent, you will all likewise perish.
?Jesus (Luke 13:3 ESV)
I haven’t posted much lately. I really liked this article. Thanks for the discussion Dave.
Dave,
We are the first generation of pastors to have to learn how to pastor in an environment where– the government, military, media, liberal churches and preachers, NAACP, politicians, entertainers, athletes, pop-culture, and to a lesser extent the public educational system–are all accepting, friendly to, or supporting– same-sex sex and relationships, including marriage. As we wrestle with and try to get our arms around this thorny issue–your post is extremely helpful toward that end. Thanks for ministering to the body of Christ through this blog.
Dwight
Dwight, you said, “””and to a lesser extent the public educational system””” I’d simply add that the reason all the other entities are accepting is precisely because of the public educational system. It was designed to bring about the very society we see today. It is amazing to me that the public education system has been able to bring about the anti-Christian socialism we see rising today at a feverish pace and most people don’t even see it happening. The founders of American public education read as a “Who’s Who” of socialistic protagonists: Owens, Mann, Dewey, and so many others.… Read more »
Frank: You sure hit the nail on the head, identifying the socialists in American Education. And people wonder how I could possible hold to a conspiracy being a big part of the problem. You put your finger on that conspiracy. Read Carroll Quigley’s Tragedy and Hope and his The Anglo American Establishment, Tony Brown’s , We The People, R. Buckminster Fuller’s writings, and about 250,000 volumes of other works that make up the conspirators coverage by those who have run into it, identified it, and even investigated it. Even George Washington admitted as much…about a work by a prof. from… Read more »
Thank you, Dwight.
Dwight,
You said “We are the first generation of pastors to have to learn how to pastor in an environment where– the government, military, media, liberal churches and preachers, NAACP, politicians, entertainers, athletes, pop-culture, and to a lesser extent the public educational system–are all accepting, friendly to, or supporting– same-sex sex and relationships, including marriage.”
That is so true. And we are doing it with an older generation that has yet to grasp it! Ministry is not for the faint of heart!
Great read here everyone. Thanks for the insight. I was in a discussion on Facebook with some people who work for the Tony Robbins Company. The health, wealth and prosperity group. The subject was being defriended by someone who does not believe in homosexuality. I engaged, and was attacked by about 20 plus people. Was actually exciting. I simply said homosexuality was a sin, and a sin against the body and the Bible does not support that lifestyle. Man was I thrown into the hornets nest!! People threw scripture at me out of context left and right. I have found… Read more »
Thanks, Mark. I think I’ll just stay “Pastor Dave.”
There may be a strong argument to be made against Jared Moore’s position, but I don’t think it had been made in this thread: 1. “Our efforts should…not [be] to criminalizing certain types of sinful behavior.” And yet, we favor criminalizing murder, bank fraud, riding a motorcycle without a helmet, skipping school, and driving without liability insurance. We favor the legislation of fairness in labor laws and lending laws and a half-dozen other Old Testament prophetic themes. Why all of these sins, but not homosexuality? What’s entirely missing from the discussion is any tenable framework by which homosexuality has been… Read more »
Bart,
Best analysis yet.
PS–The reason your analysis will not make sense to some people is because many do not realize that there has never been a “sin” with such a strong lobby.
PSS–Though the tobacco lobby and the alcohol lobby do come close.
So, what sins do you criminalize and which do you not?
The same way we do everything: we introduce laws and they pass or fail.
But we don’t try to pass laws to criminalize all sins. We just pick and choose some.
OK. Why do you choose to give homosexuality a pass?
Well Dave, Why did the apostle Paul only name some sins in his list in 1 Corinthians 5 concerning withdrawing fellowship from people who claim to be Christian and live in them? I always get rebuked by people when I mention this but all sins are not equal.
Frank, why do you answer a question with a question?
Ah, Dave…That’s the $1 million question!
Dave: I think your questions here are much more complex and much more important than they appear at first glance. The difference between malum in se and malum prohibitum (i.e., acts which are intrinsically bad vs. acts which are prohibited merely because we decide to prohibit them), gets very tricky when you toss a Christian worldview into the mix. When viewing crimes at the extreme ends of the spectrum, (e.g., murder vs. fishing without a license), it’s easy to claim that one crime has an obvious, intrinsically moral component. However, when you start looking at the justification behind each criminal… Read more »
Zack: “Ultimately, I think that the academic world of Christian ethics is ripe for some more developed scholarship on these subjects.”
I entirely agree.
Dave, Now that I have a little bit more time (although not unlimited), I’ll answer your question more fully. What sins do you criminalize? 1. You never criminalize “first table of the law” sins. Whether people worship, when people worship, whom people worship, how (within reason) people worship? These are out-of-bounds. 2. Now that we cannot legislate a person’s relationship with God, we’re left to legislate about how people behave with other people. What are our core principles in doing so? Romans 13 tells us that government exists as an agent of the wrath of God to punish evil and… Read more »
That is an interesting subject for future rumination. We all agree that murder, pedophilia, rape and other moral sins should be legislated. We probably all agree that gossip and lying (in a non-legal setting) – clearly sinful against God – should not be legislated. The line in the middle is tricky. It would be nice if that line were established in Scripture, and in the OT theocracy, it was. But in our secular representative democracy, things are different. I hate to even say this, but to a certain extent, we have to let cultural norms be a factor in this.… Read more »
Dave, I’m glad that you hate to say it, because I really disagree! 😉 Following the whims of the mob is, it seems to me, the worst way to govern. At this point, the comparison to slavery truly IS appropriate. The question is simply this: If I were suddenly made a king and had to power to make any law and to enforce it, what laws would I make? THAT question will force us all to try to develop a biblical philosophy of government that we can then apply to our individual circumstances. Before we answer what we can or… Read more »
Well put, Mr. Barber, well put. accepting the homosexual success in the public arena might seem like the expedient thing to do now, but, later, it will be fraught with disaster. Just think how Southern Baptists have had to admit that their Northern brethren were right about slavery being truly contrary to the spirit of the Gospel and a terrible evil to be resisted and removed, if at all possible. So with the Sodomite issue today. Our news media ignores the problems acceptance is already presenting. I saw an article sometime ago about the increase in the instances of homosexual… Read more »
My view of the Bible may be different from some of your highly trained views. Much of reference to “those who burn with unnatural lust” (implying homosexual, to me) is how they cause problems between other people. So, the case of the man who claimed falsely you tossed him out of your church is what homosexuals do. I have a friend back in C.R. whose nephew is gay, and my friend says that man, when he enters a room, looks around to see who he can get to fight with whom. The gays I worked around were like that. As… Read more »
Storms here. Power outage. I can’t type long stuff on this phone without violating the qualifications for my office in 1 Tim 3. ;-). Sorry to duck out prematurely.
The mission of the Church is to bring Christ into the world. That is how Christians will ‘change things’ for the better. And now, many Christians are waking up to this truth, and forsaking ‘short cuts’ that involve worldly and political power, for the power that resides in Christ the Lord . . . the power to transform people. DAVID was right when he wrote this: “No, put down your stones. We are not for homosexuality, but we must be FOR homosexuals. They are not our enemy, they are our mission field. ” It is above all for us to… Read more »
Dave, one of your best articles. Sharing it now…
It’s morning in America ( 😉 ), and the power is back on in Farmersville. Now I can continue… 3. William Thornton has asserted that Jared’s desire to criminalize homosexuality is incompatible with a claim to love homosexuals. If a desire to see something prosecuted criminally is incompatible with love, then I wonder what William’s position is regarding pedophiles? Our church sent one of those away to prison—we reported him, testified against him, and have lobbied against early release for him. I also believe that it is my duty to love him. William, where am I wrong in this? Would… Read more »
5. Thom and Frank L have argued against Jared along the lines of, “Dude, you think you’re ever going to WIN?” Frankly, this argument works equally well against anyone who is simply trying to teach that homosexual behavior is sinful. Do you think you’re going to win that argument in the culture? If you think it’s going to be easy to win that argument in the church with your current 6-year-olds, then you’re deceiving yourself. Sometimes we declare things to be a hill worthy dying on (see the OP) and we remain firm even if we think we’ll probably lose… Read more »
Bart, I made my point about the likely barrier between homosexuals and the church because of my great desire for people who struggle with homosexuality to see the church as the place to resolve and find freedom. Many fear it already, including the strugglers who are hiding within our churches now under double-identities. Some, of course, because of their faith and hope and because they have witnessed grace extended to other sinners, will come forth to a pastor or brother and seek help. It does happen and the results are often very good. Sometimes the results are disastrous, though perhaps… Read more »
Thom: “It would be a significant waste of time for Christians to go down that path and I’d rather see us putting our efforts into actually learning enough about what drives the homosexual struggler so we could be real assistance to those who sincerely want to recover.” Thom, I agree. Also, regarding pastoral concerns, if homosexual behavior WERE illegal, then I’d probably engage that issue similarly to the way that I engage the issue of illegal immigration (which comes up sometimes when you live in Texas). I do not dispute the validity of immigration laws. I do not think it… Read more »
Well-stated. My wife is from a small-town south of San Antonio. Her father would often find illegal immigrants crossing through the field behind his home. Faced with the choice of calling authorities or giving them food and water, he chose the latter . . . but he was always not sure he was doing the right thing.
Regarding the whole issue of criminality and homosexuality. If cultural and societal trends are not reversed, it is more likely that speaking out against homosexuality will become a criminal act, and the act of homosexuality will not.
Hey, Thom, One more thing about my parallel between compulsory school attendance and our hypothetical law criminalizing homosexuality: In general, society does not hate truants. Indeed, taking evidence from films like Ferris Buehler’s Day Off, I’d say there’s a general agreement that compulsory attendance laws are good, and yet people have a strange mix of admiration and “tsk-tsk” in their attitudes toward truancy. This is proof, I think, that something can be illegal without criminalizing laws necessarily being an expression of derision and hatred from society toward a group of people. Now, it may be that we should NOT criminalize… Read more »
Hi BART BARBER,
you wrote:
‘ “…the abstract question,
“Should homosexual behavior be criminalized?” ‘
and I thought, not so abstract in this world is that possibility:
examine UGANDA and what happened there:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08HpzqZAQ_g
Unfortunately, the Ugandans put a ‘death penalty’ clause in their bill, which was NOT the original intention of the American missionaries from the conservative Christian right.
Yes, we can. While we can’t remember prohibition, we all know how that law was derided.
As Christians we do need to look beyond the crime and see the person, regardless of what it is, and seek to walk with him or her when they seek repentance.
I do think gay-militants would welcome any efforts to criminalize their behavior because it would fuel their need to inflame militancy to keep their movement alive.
If this blog is intended only for SBC pastors and certified theologians, please delete my comments and let me know. Last night I came in from a short, but tiring trip and commented because I could. There is no SBC in Mexico, just Baptist. I have been reading the Bible for not quite my 70 years. In my opinion, many devout Christians seem to miss the point of the Bible. I hear them say, “Well, (it) is true, because the Bible says so.” In simple terms, they believe something is true BECAUSE the Bible says it is true, and only… Read more »
Just to introduce myself, when Dave Miller lived in Cedar Rapids, I was a public activist for divorced fathers. He may not have known it, but I also did free telephone counseling, including suicide counseling. I learned much about the realities of modern marriage.
His seminary thesis on the role of divorced men in the church was excellent. I lost my copy when we moved to Texas in 1997, alas.
Bruce, in you look through the archives here, I have expanded that paper and it is a recent series of posts called “Divorce, Remarriage and Ministry” at this site.
And I made that correction you pointed out!
Hi Bruce McGovern,
Please send me a pdf copy of Unwin’s book if the copyright has expired.
My email is truthunites@hotmail.com
I’m suffering from insomnia.
P.S. Your comment at 10:26 am was very insightful, by the way.
I like this article, because it puts my chaotic thoughts into a coherent order. But, I always thought the Bible did address the way in which we are to respond…and as I am not without sin, I am not picking up the first stone. The issue isn’t ours to judge, but we can determine its status and try to look at it with God’s eyes. That it is a distortion of His creation is not simply a ‘sin’ but such a mark of absolute disrespect by the Father of Lies. People who claim homosexuality do not understand that they are… Read more »
If Government is appointed by God as a “minister of God for your good” then we ought to want our government to approve what is good and outlaw or disincentivise that which is not good. Consequently, I believe it is untenable for believers who have a stewardship as those who elect our leaders to support the government in incentivising what is not good. The only argument for ambivalence toward our government’s approval of sodomy and the perversion of holy matrimony would be to assume that since God has “given them over” we should not interfere but allow them to endure… Read more »
Doc version of Sex and Culture sent. Actually, the pdf is the best version. But, it is over 60MB, too big to send.
Google for:
SexCulture.zip
and look for rapid share. One choice, the center one, is a direct download, it will be nearly 66MB. Unzip it, and you will see several versions. Pdf is essentially an original image.
To be honest, I have never made it all the way through. It is hard reading, and you are like page 150 or more before it actually starts with the interesting data.
I like this posting. I once heard a preacher say that he would rather minister to a group of homosexuals in the pews than a group of “righteous” people. He then used Matthew 9:11-13 as his support.