Large majorities of various Christian sub-groups (classify by race, by region, and other means) vote either Republican or Democratic. While I understand the presence of an escape hatch to the statement (“I don’t see”), can a pastor effectively minister to a congregation that has mixed political constituencies?
I don’t see how.
Could some of the brain trust persuade me otherwise.
I can see a categorical personal statement, e.g. “I will not vote for any party that supports abortion” or similar.
One day, it cannot come too soon, we will be post COVID-19. One day we will be post-Trump. Is it wise to scorch the landscape on either side in the coming election?
Sixty days to Election Day. Woo hoo.
_________________________
As an aside, blue-collar people around me (mechanics, building trades, factory workers, etc.) fly, literally, the Trump flag. I saw a Trump 2020 twenty dollar bill. No Andy Jackson picture on it. Donald J. Trump.
Visited a church this past Sunday and was exposed to a refreshing change of approach to politics. The large church has some local politicians and some aspiring for state offices. The pastor approached the subject of politics. I thought he was going to introduce and promote these church politicians. Nope. He didn’t even mention their names. He made a biblical, general statement about voting. No voter guides. No ‘take back America.’ No ham handed endorsements.
Good man.
A person’s vote for a public servant should by no means be an indictment of their faith. Certainly, our biblical convictions should influence our vote based on Romans 13. It is my desire that public servants are men of faith and/or at least decent citizens. I do not identify with either political party as both parties are highly flawed from a biblical perspective. John McCarthur has stated that true Christians can’t vote Democratic. That’s unfortunate. It could be said that true Christians can’t vote for Donald Trump, but I dare not utter those words. Lord help your church.
John MacArthur based his belief sometime back……in 2008 DNC dropped God from their political platform seeking to become a totally secular dependent organization….that is an unfortunate
final word omitted….position
Curtis, please explain how Romans 13 apply to Hitler’s Germany, Ceausescu’ s Romania, Mugabe’s Zimbabwe, or Idi Amin’s Uganda?
?
Serious question: Maybe I’ve been lucky or sheltered or both, but I have not heard a pitch for any political party or any candidate from the pulpit in 40 years of listening to SBC preachers. Where are all these folks who are supposedly doing this all the time? Not pushing back on your column here, Bill. I’m really trying to figure this out.
You’re lucky. Several mega celeb pastors have done this recently.
William T. Agreed, we all see a few celebrity mega church Pastors stating and promoting their political agenda. However, as far as I know they are not official SBC spokespeople , they are speaking for themselves and their individual. . Going along with my other post if their local church membership is okay and agrees with this approach, that is up to the local church. I think most of us that are long time , very long time members think of local churches we attended who while pushing Christian values did not openly make their sermons political to the point… Read more »
Heard it last summer in central North Carolina. From the preacher. Fortunately most of the other times I’ve heard it at church at least it’s not from the pulpit.
Isn’t that pretty much what the CBN is about? Making the SBC a branch of the GOP?
I thought it was making SBC more Charismatic? Oh wait…wrong televangelist…
If I would have said the opposite of you Dave my comment would not get posted
I happily heard the best “political” statement from a pulpit this past Sunday. Our pastor shared that during this season he has lots of encouragement to speak on politics, to endorse candidates, to share that “America’s future is at stake”. But then shared that he has had no encouragements to preach on sharing the Gospel, loving our neighbors and reaching un-reached peoples. He went on to share that regardless of who you support or who gets elected, our God is far bigger and more powerful than any man or man-made political party. It was both encouraging and refreshing.
That’s it.
I think keeping a Kingdom perspective is good. But Christians should be encouraged to take responsibility in voting for who they choose as if God himself is observing their choices.
How is voting any different than all of life for the Christian? I’m struggling to see your intent here. Are you implying that (some, most, all?) those that do not vote for a specific candidate are trying to slip one by the Almighty? What of those who vote neither?
Gonna be hard to reach your neighbors if candidates get elected that are against religious liberty
That Nero. Man what an advocate for religious liberty. Without his support, how would the gospel have advanced in the first century?
I’m so glad religious liberty is so central in China. How else would the gospel be expanding there?
Who was it that said, “The blood of the martyrs is the seed of the church”? What was he thinking?
Adam, Of course I agree with your basic point, that the church doesn’t need the government to succeed, and will succeed in the face of persecution. I love the things I have learned studying the history of the persecuted church. However, I am a little surprised at your dismissal of Bryan’s point. Christians are persecuted by dictatorial regimes, and most places they have had no say in the matter. We do. I don’t think God gave us that blessing lightly, nor should we treat it so. In other words, religious liberty should definitely be a consideration for us. It’s the… Read more »
I have to admit one of the things i have been pondering lately is whether our religious liberty has become a golden cage for the modern American church. It seems to me I (we) pursue it more than (I) we exercise it. Follow me here for a moment before dismissing me as crazy. Haven’t you wondered how you would live in a Christian hostile world? I’m confident most on this board would still share the good news of Christ regardless the cost. My pondering is more about what would I sacrifice in order to keep my religious liberty. Would I… Read more »
Your thought isn’t crazy, especially when you study how Christianity often thrives in persecuted areas. God may well decide that He no longer wants us to have religious liberty in America. But would He tell us to vote for that? I think not. I don’t believe fighting (through votes/legal system ) for religious liberty is inconsistent with trusting God’s sovereignty. Using force (if everything completely falls apart) is a bit more difficult, but however you answer “would I fight to defend my family?” would likely help answer this for religious liberty too.
Whoahh Everybody! The church does often grow during persecution but not always. Some persecutions have just decimated the church. Examples: the Muslim takeover of North Africa and the Middle East during the 600’s; the Huegenot persecution in France in the late 1500’s and early 1600’s; and the Soviet persecution in the early 1900’s.
We don’t know at this point what would happen during mass persecution in America. Only God has that knowledge.
If the Chinese govt can’t stop Christians there then the US govt will not stop Americans who are committed to worshiping the Lord. Our freedom does not come from any man-made government but from the Son who sets us free indeed.
How so? The gospel
Is spreading in China despite it being a nation opposed to the Gospel. How does a politician who is opposed to religious liberty stop an individual Christian from sharing the gospel with their neighbor?
So if the government tells you to stop sharing Jesus….you’re going to comply? Wow.
Christianity often has it greatest growth in times and places when/where there is no liberty to be a Christian. Think Tertullian.
I think there is a disconnect that needs to be addressed. On the local level even in the hay day of the moral majority I never heard direct messaging from the pulpit to vote for a certain candidate I hear an opposition to same sex marriage and abortion but not linked to a political party. Now , it goes without saying that by default those two issues would lead one vote for the more conservative party. I think the moral majority type movements are a mistake for this reason: Most faithful Christians, who do their Bible study, hear the good… Read more »
A few years ago I told a fellow pastor that we will look back one day and say that Trump was the worst thing to happen to the evangelical church. I’m afraid I misdiagnosed the issue. I no longer believe that Trump caused the division in the church. He simply exposed it because he is so polarizing. This problem will not go away when Trump is no longer President. There will continue to be a push to provide cover for Christians to vote for Democrats. I’m really not sure what more they have to do for this to stop. Meanwhile,… Read more »
Brent, Bullseye! You scored a direct hit. ‘There will continue to be a push to provide cover for Christians to vote for Democrats.’ This statement seriously resonates within me. I really think your comment captures ‘in a nutshell’ …the sentiment that many of a conservative persuasion, have endeavored to respectfully push back against. To me, it is absolutely irrelevant which platform or politician is being officially promoted by a denomination’s hierarchy …the ‘filthy lucre’ principle remains the same. What troubles my soul yet more, is the ‘strategic motivation’ behind the calculated push you’ve identified. High profile influencers within the Christian… Read more »
As one who has not for a split second considered voting for Biden or any of the Democratic candidates, why would one need someone to “provide cover.” There are many issues that matter to Christians and each person should balance them according to the conscience under the Lordship of Christ.
The way you word that, by definition, implies something.
It implies Christians = Republicans, plain and simple. That’s why evangelicals are inextricably tied to Donald Trump, because Trump owns the Republican party, body and soul, and Republicans own Christians.
At this point it implies that I am anti-Democrat much more than pro-Republican. Trump will eventually be gone, and I doubt anyone else on that side has the personality to hold his coalition together. But the radical march to the left is happening faster every day for Democrats. And Christians see that and are reacting.
Dave, I am in total agreement with your well reasoned factual statement: “There are many issues that matter to Christians and each person should balance them according to the conscience under the Lordship of Christ.” “Why would one need someone to “provide cover?” Exactly my point! So …why IS it then, that we DO see such strenuous socio-political efforts (at higher echelons of influence) to ‘steer’ the Spirit led convictions of Christ’s precious bride? I would guess part of the answer, involves power and money. Dave, this offensive ‘merchandising of the church’, played a major factor in my deliberate choice… Read more »
In 08 I was intensely political, though not from the pulpit, mainly because I saw the left moving further to the left. I was very concerned for the future for my young kids. I pulled away from politics for the last decade mainly to make sure I was putting the political scene in the right perspective. I have re-engaged in recent months because I am seeing the literal fulfillment of what I was concerned about in 08. Cities burning, religious liberty being trampled on, etc. And make no mistake, the goal of the left is to literally destroy the church.… Read more »
I’m just not seeing the division between conservative Christians boiling down to cover for voting Democrat. I could never vote for a 100% tried and true Democratic candidate. Most of my conservative leaning Never Trump friends are not in the burn it down camp. I (We) will still vote for my (our) conservative Governor, Representative, and Senator. Fortunately in my state, they are all sane. No, the discord either comes when I state that I can’t see how anyone can vote for the President or someone else states that they can’t see how I won’t vote for the President. Politics… Read more »
Agreed.
I understand that position, Mike. I respectfully disagree, but I’ve had moments in the past where I have considered not voting. Sadly, I think we will see Republicans cave on more issues as we move forward, so we will likely be in the same boat soon.
There will be prominent evangelicals voting for Biden. And unfortunately, I don’t believe it’s only anti-Trump sentiment.
If you mean it’s not only personally anti-Trump, but also includes his views on immigration, for many I would agree. I’m guessing you are tying any and all justice issues into that mix as well. Unfortunately views on justice are not simply binary. They are on a continuum. I’m sure we would find areas of justice that we would agree on (pro and con). What I have issue is that I’m not allowed to have nuance on justice issues without getting lumped into BLM, whose platform and goals I explicitly reject. We’re making adversaries of each other when there is… Read more »
I agree, the dialogue in this area is toxic, but that has a lot more to do with CRT than anything else. Let’s lay down arms, condemn things like CRT and BLM, and work together to advance the Kingdom through the Gospel. I’m eager to do that. But those theories/org is poisoning the water and driving wedges.
I’m used to hearing the usual things a Christian (or at least a good southern baptist) needs to consider in choosing a candidate – mainly abortion. But last night a dear friend mentioned something I have heard before but not in a while. Is it still a part of the whole complementarian thing that people can’t support or vote for a woman president? Like not a particular candidate but in general? I know with Ms. Clinton and frequently with Ms. Harris I hear people talk about why they don’t like them as candidates (actual issues not related to their sex).… Read more »
What will it take for the church to say to a political party, you have gone too far? Just curious? If a political party wrote into their platform that pedophilia was acceptable and any candidate running for President must support that, would that be a bridge too far? If said candidate said they would use an Executive Order, Day One, to implement it, would that be too far? At some point I would say yes. For many, the bridge too far has already arrived.
I did that. When my lifelong party selected, among some very good candidates, a man I found vile, immoral, and beyond the pale, I renounced my membership in the GOP and became an independent. I said no.
I say I did not leave the GOP but the GOP left me when they sold their values and morality for what…?
On the other hand, I do not think it is the church’s job to say yes or no to political parties.
Nate: I think as long as the Republican party doesn’t become pro-choice, there is literally nothing else they could embrace that would drive evangelicals away. I think we’ve already seen that proven, every day for the last 4 years.
People Trump was not a single issue candidate. His voters agreed with him on immigration issues, national security issues, trade issues, economy issues and many other issues. As the national pundit talking heads like to say , President Trump has evolved on the abortion issue. I actually believed he has listened and respected the positions of the anti abortion supporters who he as given a seat at the table. I think evangelicals are done a great injustice with the broad brush they are painted with in the media. Can a pro life Democrat win a national primary, or course not… Read more »
I’m really confused by this statement and so many of these comments. Unless we are just now using the term “evangelicals” to refer to “southern white evangelicals.” Many – make that most- of our African-American brothers and sisters will vote for Biden in November. I’m curious to hear from the board if that makes their status of being part of the SBC problematic in your eyes. Many would point to Biblical themes of justice, immigration, and care for the poor as key for their stance. (Yes I’m aware of the counter arguments but really curious if the umbrella is big… Read more »
Exactly my point.
Tim , According to exit polls and Pew survey of 2016 election Trump got 80 percent of evangelical vote, so if many of our AA brothers and sisters voted for Democrats so be it, they disagreed with him on the issues. There is nothing problematic about any believer in Christ being in the SBC or any denomination. Truth is in my medium size SBC church African Americans are very very welcome. We have about 25 faithful minority members out of a membership of over 225 It seems to me that most members are extremely glad, pleased and welcoming to minorities… Read more »
I would disagree with that Bill, but I understand the statement. Republicans should do what the first Republicans did; break off from the Whigs and form a new party that is populist, more independent, and more liberty minded. They could distance themselves from all the RINO’s, the ones in bed with China, and the ones who refuse to squelch the tech giants and force them to allow free speech and debate on their forums if they want their “journalistic” tax breaks. The Democrats have sold their souls completely by writing most of their preferences into their party platform which means… Read more »
Jesus said, “My Kingdom is not of This World.” That says it all.
Ronald Reagan, who I very much admire, used the phrase ‘city on a hill’ referencing the USA. But the reference ‘city on a hill’ has reference to God’s future work..
Many Christians just can not disconnect from this world and see “God’s Kingdom.’ Yes, it hurts, but the USA is part of this world just like Israel was when Jesus came, just like the Roman Empire was.
I think it’s fine for a Christian to say whatever their voting preferences or convictions are. I also think it’s fine for groups, think tanks, parachurch organizations to coalesce around voting and various issues. The Moral Majority, Focus on the Family, the Family Research Council, Americans United for Separation of Church and State, The & Campaign, are all fine. I think it’s fine for people to discuss and argue their belief that they believe voting this way or that is more consistent with Christian teaching and will produce a more harmonious society. There are 2 potential problems as I see… Read more »
I think what we’ve seen, particularly among Republican politicians, is that they have become more and more like Trump. The more Trump gets away with egregious things with utter impunity and absolutely no accountability, the more they see their way clear to imitating him. As I said, Trump owns the Republican party and Republicans own the SBC.
It’s patently untrue that the GOP owns the SBC.
I find people in the SBC to be very independent. A majority happen to agree with the platform of the GOP at this moment in history. But change that platform, and SBC people will leave in droves.
I wonder
Bill Mac, if the Republicans came out for abortion on demand, for defunding the police forces, providing free health care to illegal aliens as well as providing lawyers and supported open borders are you of the opinion the present supporters would remain in the Republican Party and if so why?
Assuming the GOP didn’t adopt every position of Democrats, where else would the SBC turn? The refrain with Trump was that at least he wasn’t a Democrat. Lesser of two evils. I can easily see people adopting the same line. It’s about power, not principle.
I agree with a lot of what you’ve said. I think we should step way back from making judgment calls on whether someone is a Christian based on their vote. I was another of those neverTrump folks. Not to the point of questioning whether a Christian, but perhaps questioning potential idols and priorities. Honestly I’m more disappointed with what I perceive as the damage to our witness with how we’ve handled ourselves than I am with Trump. His behaviors and comments I expected. I was naive and blindsided by the Church response. I can understand voting for someone even someone… Read more »
Kimberly,
What a wonderful and honest tweet.
I will say that wherever you attend church is fortunate to have you.
Please keep your thoughtful and nonjudgmental spirit.
God bless.
Thank you for your comment. A lot of depth in what you said.
I would like to try to answer your question, “can a pastor effectively minister to a congregation that has mixed political constituencies?” In doing this I don’t consider myself part of the ” brain trust” you mentioned. I think the only way a pastor with a church composed of mixed political constituencies can minister effectively would be by keeping politics out of the church. I know this would be hard for some, because it seems many preachers only preach politics (the liberals preach liberal politics and the conservatives preach conservative politics). I know this next statement is going to be… Read more »
Exactly! Our unwritten rule is leave your personal politics at the door. If a church is multicultural, like the one I pastor, partisan politics is toxic. I learned this vividly in the election of 2012 a year after I arrived
Here’s a followup question: If a Democrat visited your church and had a chance to fellowship and chat with the people (ie: outside of the formal service) would they walk away feeling welcome?
To answer this question in a general sense I would say, based on my limited observations, a Democrat would not feel welcome at most conservative churches and a Republican would not feel welcome at most liberal churches. I am sure there are some exceptions both ways.
Tony: I wasn’t talking about churches that are theologically conservative or liberal. I’m talking about someone at something more informal, like a bible study, hearing vitriol pointed at Democrats. It is, unfortunately, something I see all the time.
If a secular progressive came to a bible study in my church, how they were treated would depend on which study they picked. Most of the studies would not react one way or the other. Some might be openly hostile. If the guest were aggressive about his politics, it might be more difficult. To Tony’s point I would expect about the same treatment at a small group from the much more liberal church a few blocks from my house. I don’t think they have bible studies per se. In general, the progressives have been much less tolerant of divergent views… Read more »
The same would be true in informal settings as well. The liberal Bible study group speaks evil of Republicans, and the conservative Bible study group speaks evil of Democrats. I don’t agree with this attitude, but I just wanted to make it clear that it is two sided problem.
I think the question is about focus. In several small groups I’ve been in there’s always that one person who would rather talk about politics than what the Scripture is saying. That’s usually not a problem as you can reel them back in, but it can be if that one turns into 3 or 4.
Mike: It’s not just the person who would rather talk about politics than scripture, but the person who makes every scripture about politics. And they can be very hard to reel in.
It’s an informal fallacy that combines a straw man and a poisoning of a well into one:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
I have to disagree with anyone who says God told them to vote for a particular candidate. God doesn’t want you to put your faith in a person walking around on this Earth. All humans are flawed with a carnal nature. I’ve voted for candidates that I thought saw things the way I did and was let down terribly. Now I never try to drag God into the voting booth. I vote for the candidate that will try to lead this nation in a fair and even democracy for everyone. God is not in politics, at least not in my… Read more »
Why don’t someone write about why so many people on voices don’t like the President of the United States Donald J Trump. Now I understand he’s got a mouth but on issues is there really anyone else I mean really. He’s great on the economy. His foreign policy is great look we’re not in war. his trade agreements are fair and balanced he loves black colleges he calls attention to God in His speeches he got the economy back on track he handled covid with wisdom and discernment. I mean really why do People in the voices world dislike him.… Read more »
Well speaking not for anyone but myself, when Trump ran the 1st time his biggest positive was he wasn’t HRC.
So I didn’t vote for him bc there are/were plenty of negatives.
But I’m not looking for a spiritual leader man of God to be prez.
Trump has many positives now.
Yes he still has negatives but he does seem to be doing a good job under the circumstances he has had to put up with.
So I am planning on voting for him this time around.
2025 (if Trump wins -2021 otherwise) will be really interesting.
When I became old enough to vote the first presidential candidate I voted for was Bush, Sr. I wish I had been old enough to vote for my favorite, Ronald Reagan. After Bush Sr, I voted for Dole, George W twice, McCain, Libertarian in 2012 (Romney as too much of a RINO do me and the polls showed Romney winning my state of GA anyway) and 2016 Trump. If the race in Ga had been “tight” in 2012, then I would have voted for Romney. I was never overly excited about voting for any of these, but they all professed… Read more »
Bryan, This is how far apart we are, and that is part of what troubles me. You consider Trump to be a great president and I consider him to be the most despicably evil person to ever infest the Oval Office. You think he has handled the pandemic with wisdom and discernment and I’m convinced there are far more people dead in this country because of his idiotic handling of it. You say he mentions God but he lies like no one we’ve ever seen. You think he is fighting for you and I don’t believe cares for anyone in… Read more »
I would be curious to know where Bill Mac and Bryan McPherson each get their news. Bill sounds like an MSNBC guy and Bryan like a CBN guy.
Just wondering how these two rather extreme views of Trump developed I am in the middle between you two on this. On the great /evil scale I view Reagan and the Bush’s as greater than Trump and Clinton and Obama as more evil than Trump.
Scott: I don’t watch television news (no cable or satellite). I regularly view Fox and CNN online.
I’m apparently a twin of Bill Mac. Same views, same sources. I look at Fox and CNN on the web, specifically looking for the bias. CNN sees the end of the world in everything, and Fox is “nothing to see here, move along”. I try to use direct quotations (video if possible) to frame my opinions. I’m a firm believer that the mouth exposes the heart.
Indeed.
Scott: I’ve never supported a Democratic candidate for president, and I don’t this time either. However I have always thought that each president, despite their flaws and egos, Democrat or Republican, in the end were doing what they thought best for the country. Even if I strongly disagree with their policies. However I do not think that of Trump. I think Trump will only ever do what he thinks will benefit himself. In doing so, he might incidentally do something that benefits the country, but that is never his primary goal. Just my opinion of course.
Bill Mac, like I said before, I have an almost identical view. I will caveat that to say that I have absolutely no issue with anyone doing the political calculus, seeing the craziness on the left, and marking in DJT as president. It’s a very pragmatic decision in a political climate devoid of idealism. I’m more concerned about the process of how a CHRISTIAN gets to the point of marking in DJT. I’ve seen too many personal friends who revel in the outrageousness of the President. They don’t view his behavior as vice, they see it as virtue. That concerns… Read more »
Mike: I’ve seen it also. I’ve seen too many times where Christians who say they reluctantly support Trump but actually revel in the mean and hateful things he does, as long as it is directed toward the media and/or Democrats. We’ve had someone on this very forum who was perfectly OK with Trump calling Republicans who don’t support him “human scum”. In fact, I never saw a single Christian, let alone a Republican, call him out on that one. That’s my fear. He is changing us. Christians are becoming like him, at least that is my impression. I’m not going… Read more »
As someone who was never Trump and as I stated in an earlier response am likely to vote for Trump this year despite what I actually think about Trump — I will ask that you realize that while your rights might not change regardless of the next election, but for some of us that is not the case. I want my daughter to grow up in a space where she is not required to share a bathroom with men. Where she can participate in sports without competing with or sharing a locker room with men. Where she can acknowledge that… Read more »
As I stated, a perfectly crafted and pragmatic response to the perilous times we live in. You have no illusions about either choice. To be honest though, for most of us this is purely academic. My state will go for DJT so there’s no cost for me to vote third party (American Solidarity Party to be precise). Probably up to 40 states are already locked in, unless something drastic happens.
I’m a fan of American Solidarity Party.
I like that they know who they are. They’re goal is not necessarily to become a viable third party option in the near term. They know that is a generation away of hard work. They would prefer their platform get co-opted by one of the major parties.
Kimberly, I have absolutely no problem with the truly reluctant Trump voters who have done the math and come to a different solution than I have. I too am concerned about the same things you are. But I am more concerned about more subtle dangers. I am concerned with what is happening to us. I am concerned with using evil to fight evil. I am concerned about the disturbing movement that I see that OKs hate and cruelty as long as it is pointed at Democrats and the media. I am very concerned about our so-called “leaders” who, rightly or… Read more »
I don’t think the church will be strong based on any conceivable outcome from this election. The previous years didn’t create these problems but they fed problems that we could easily ignore before. There is unacknowledged and unrepentant sin in our church at all levels. There is an accountability problem (how are the leaders getting away with teaching and doing the things they are) There is a discipleship problem (in that there are people in our churches who are delighting in and reveling in wickedness) There is an evangelistic problem (I have to believe this because there seem to be… Read more »
Kimberly, I certainly don’t think any election can make the church stronger, but I think there are things that can make it less effective, and at the top of that list is church members looking and acting like Donald Trump. I’m sure people will pooh pooh that and say it’s not happening, but I’m seeing it, both personally and certainly when the “christian” talking heads take the stage.
Bill Mac, I hate what the Democratic party stands for. Baby slaughter. God hates: “A proud look, a lying tongue, hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that are swift in running to evil, a false witness who speaks lies, and one who sows discord among brethren”
I will eagerly work to mitigate Dems gaining more power. I don’t want them to enact their stated goals of more baby slaughter. I will seek to defensively work to prevent that and continue to hate what they stand for.
Bro William, I’m not sure I qualify for membership in the “brain trust” but if you’ll give me a pass just this once I’ll try. Yes, I think a pastor can effectively minister to a congregation that has mixed political constituencies by: a) Preaching from the Word of God that God has a design for “nations” as much as for Israel, the Church, and individuals. Not all nations and not all leaders operate equally. b) Preaching from the Word of God to show that the design includes (among others and this needs development) freedom, justice, life, righteousness, opportunities, etc. c)… Read more »
Randall, You make several good points here, though I would respectfully advocate modification of one statement: “the act of voting is an act of worship.” I can appreciate and support this viewpoint, aware that many Christian voters prayerfully cast their ballot while ‘giving thanks, as unto the Lord’. FWIW: I view the matter as a rough parallel to choosing/abstaining to ‘eat meat that had been devoted to pagan idols’. Please recognize that conversely, many of your Christian brothers and sisters choose a different, contrasting path …prayerfully abstaining (‘while giving thanks, as unto the Lord’) from active participation in secular, humanistic… Read more »
Hi Dave – maybe we’re not that far apart on this. In my view, I’m just applying Rom. 12:1-2 to voting, i.e., everything I do ought to be an act of worship offered to our Lord Jesus, even pushing the button for a candidate. If I can’t do that with a clear conscience, then I shouldn’t. It’s a relational thing.
I have no idea what Bro. William is referring to in “civil religion;” foreign category to me. Maybe he can revisit and expand.
Yours in Christ
References to civil religion are abundant. I’m surprised you have no idea. Lately, in the US, I would see civil religion in American flags that displace or share equal space and prominence with Christian religious symbols in churches, excessive reverence for founding fathers, and general god talk from politicians. As an example, I would offer the routine, almost totally secular Independence Day worship services in many churches. In some of those I’ve seen the Cross covered by an American flag, uniformed military exhibitions in the services, military weaponry on the church lawn. Makes no sense to me for a Lord’s… Read more »
If voting is an act of worship, then the expression is civil religion. I’d rethink that point.
Bro William – I base my view on Rom. 12 (among others – at least in theory). So in my view, it transcends “civil religion” as you’ve described above.
Yous in Christ
You might consider that your act of worship vote – the touching of a screen, marking of a ballot, pulling of a lever – is inseparable from the candidate for whom you vote. I think I get your state of mind on this but you might see how others would view your declaration that voting for Trump or Biden was an act of worship.
regards…
Bryan, You nailed it! I also respect the fair-mindedness of William and Dave, for allowing your post to appear, despite the ideological opposition of many here. I was hoping that somebody would take inventory, itemizing a list of Trump’s quantifiably creditable POLICY actions that his core supporters prioritize …versus his offensive PERSONALITY defects (rude, petty, egotistical, sophomoric humor etc…). My heavy heart was encouraged at seeing Trump suspend the mandatory indoctrination of federal employees, with the morally bankrupt and inflammatory Critical Race Theory dogma. As a soldier in the army, I was forced to endure annual ‘recertification training’ on that… Read more »
What prompted me to write this short piece was the idea of exchanging our Gospel birthright for the latest or most prominent culture war issue or moral matter.
But, as this long comment stream proves, people mostly want to talk about Trump and politics, not the Gospel.
One day we will have moved on to other politicians. Perhaps followers of Christ will come to their senses then and recalibrate their priorities.
William Thornton, As our nation is a republic founded on rights given to us by our Creator we (as a nation) cannot avoid the reality that our faith/morals/values will be drawn into the political arena. In God We Trust is our national motto, think that will not be drawn into the national debate soon. The Amish are not involved in politics and they do not worry about world affairs, is that the correct course of action. President Trump just ordered the horrible CRT courses be stopped as they are promoting division in our nation to our federal employees, political decision… Read more »
Thank you for the compliment. Crt has nothing to do with the SBC except for its status as a vehicle for the takeover crowd. Has nothing to do with this topic either.
William T., thanks for reply and you have a valid point. I cited repeal of mandated CRT teaching by government as an example of why Trump “wins” on the issues as most of his voters oppose CRT. I linked it to the CRT in the SBC Resolutions as it should never have been in the resolutions and those know of it are still questioning why? The majority of SBC does not know about it or there would be more pushback. Again goes back to issues over personal demeanor and behavior and voters being able to separate their personal faith and… Read more »
Is there ever an equal time focus on Biden by Voices? SBC leadership have a plethora to say about Trump…..but silent on Biden….or DEM platform? What is the logic or lack thereof?
Because the people who regularly visit here who support Democrats can be counted on one hand, with enough to spare to count the folks who support CRT.
Respect all who choose their candidate and positions to support….each can only be accountable for themselves…trust that is the same for anyone who disagrees over candidate or position…
There’s little here on Trump save in the comments. You don’t have a point.
And none to speak of about Biden is the point.
1) Who is “SBC Leadership”?
2) Of those, who are silent to the Democratic Party platform?
3) In what ways are they more silent to them than to their concerns with DJT?
Be careful how you calculate disagreement. I’ve never seen anyone here speak ill of North Korea. Does that mean they’re all supporters of the murderous regime?
Linking DJT and “murderous” NK in your thought process is my point.
I apologize for not being clear. There was no linkage, but even if there was, it would have been between the Donkeys and NK.
My point is you perceive that some unknown SBC Leadership is not sufficiently vocal about the Donkey platform. I pointed out that everyone here critiques some issue about the US more than any issues in NK. I’m sure you do as well.
That in no way makes you a supporter of NK.
So why did you imply that there is SBC Leadership in support of the Donkeys?
First, no linkage implied. Even if so, it would habe been between Democrats and NK.
Second, my point is just because I critique my “own” more than the “other” does not make me a supporter of the “other”. Otherwise I (or you) could be accused of supporting anything, including for example, NK.
There was no hidden dig in my post.
William, After reading your article again, I now see the distinction you had intended to emphasize. I think the multiple Trump references mingled with examples of nationalism in your ‘aside’ anecdote …diverted my attention away from the designated path. Numerous posts in this thread identified considerate and discerning methodology used to mitigate/avoid offense while ministering to a politically diverse body. Chaplains whom serve overseas on remote military installations also come to mind here. Similarities exist in maintaining balance while walking the doctrinal high-wire on secondary issues at non-denominational assemblies. I wouldn’t be shocked if everyone here, could temporarily suspend personal… Read more »
We’re not electing a pope … he’s to be a national leader. If no, we’re really voting for our personal preferences. RESULTS is why he’s there …. not our likes and dislikes.
If character doesn’t matter for the president (I’m referencing your ‘we’re not electing a pope’ statement) then why does it matter for us? Why does a pastor have to pay attention to the character passages in Timothy and Titus? Does no one else have to read those passages? Are character issues really only for the pastor to deal with and if so, why? I believe that character matters and the results are clear. DJT has no character. He did collude with the Russians in 2016 as the Mueller report and the Senate report have confirmed. He has praised many dictators… Read more »
I’m actually a little surprised more people didn’t come out in defense of Jerry Falwell Jr. It’s pretty much the same situation. The guy got results, what’s the big deal?
The fact that so many Christians openly confess that having a godly man as our nation’s leader is something they don’t really value is pretty telling. The fact that so many of those Christians openly admit that they actually prefer to have a bully rather than a man of principle – so long as he is THEIR bully – is equally telling.
Joel, unfortunately I think all you said is true. I would go a step further and say most Christians in choosing a new pastor now days consider less the qualification passages of Timothy and Titus, and just consider if the pastor candidate can produce physical results! The increasing sentiment seems to be, “as long as the pastor can get more people and bigger offerings” the fact that the pastor does not preach the whole counsel of God does not matter!
Joel, the reality is that given where our country is today, there isn’t much likelihood that a godly man would be elected in America today. Therefore, many Christians look at the platform of each political party and the policy positions of each candidate and make their choice. In the case of the 2020 Presidential Election, the Democratic Party’s Platform is that the Hyde Amendment should be overturned and there should be tax payer funded abortions throughout the nine months of a pregnancy – This is the policy of the Biden/Harris ticket. Are you comfortable with that? Obviously, there are many… Read more »
I’m not saying you can’t be a political pragmatist as a believer, and vote for Trump while acknowledging he is the lesser of two evils. I don’t agree with that premise personally, though I used to argue that line in other elections myself, but it’s not the folks doing that I have such a beef with. Rather, it’s the ones who admire and extol the virtue of a strongman who embraces ungodly leadership tactics, and who actually would prefer to support him rather than a person of strong character who leads the country with a godly determination. Hedging your bets… Read more »
I’d actually like to see a treatment of what people consider “tough”. Bullies are not tough, they are weak and insecure. People who lash out and retaliate and complain about how bad people treat them are not tough, they are immature and paranoid. Calling people derogatory names does not make one tough. Dictators are not tough, no one should be in love with them.
William,
Wow, if you had written a post about antinomianism, theories about the rapture, the impeccability of Christ etc, you might have gotten a few comments,,,, but oh no! You had to go and trip the red flare!
I told the folks Sunday that one could be a Republican or a Democrat and still be a Christian. For some that is a stretch either way. Election cycles are such a ride!
Woody
You’re living on the edge bro, telling people they can be a Christian and a dem or repub.
Better call a deacon’s meeting.
If I were the devil, I would bring politics into the church and make all Democrats feel unwelcome and thus alienating at a minimum of 50% of the people in America. The fact is that this is not far from the truth in many churches today. If I were the devil this would be a great victory for me. I think we had better do what God called us to do and preach the word. Anything that is not the word doesn’t give God the glory.