If not for my public education, I would not be a pastor.
There—how’s that for an opening line? I didn’t have time to get involved in the discussion, but in a recent post on church planting where the author recommended public schooling your (read: a church planter’s) children, a lively discussion ensued in the comment stream. This is certainly something about which people have strong opinions. I have personally been in the midst of all of that discussion. I don’t have children of my own (yet), but I was raised going to public schools, went to public universities, and spent two years as an administrator and teacher at a private, Christian school.
What I heard from some parents at that school was the same thing I’ve heard and read elsewhere all the way from blogs to church people—how terrible public schooling is and here’s all the horror stories about sex, drugs, and rock-and-roll…
Yet in my experience in both the public school and private school settings, the issue isn’t the environment so much as it is the parenting and the discipleship in churches.
The private school I worked at was more technically a hybrid. It was a rather unique cross between a straight-up private school and a home-school cooperative. Originally, it was founded by a group of home-schooling families who wanted to pool resources to provide their children a better education. By the time I had arrived on the scene it had blossomed into a school with nearly 100 (K-12) students, a staff of 25-30, and a school board and various committees. Yet the school itself only met three days a week, still leaving the other two days open for home-schooling and, theoretically, reinforcing the concepts and ideas taught in the classroom.
The school required, with very very few exceptions, that all students 7th grade and above have a Christian testimony, it required the same of at least one parent, and required regular church involvement as well as a pastoral recommendation for a student/family to be allowed in.
With all of this we certainly were able to handle problems and situations differently. If I had a student in my office, we talked about their behavior and the implications of such from a biblical perspective. The school sought to provide as Christian and church-like of an environment as possible. Yet, our students still had issues.
There were cliques, gossip, soap-opera-like drama, and disrespect; some students cussed (though mostly under their breath as opposed to in the open), some cheated, some lied, some did drugs, some had sex, and during my time one became pregnant. One time at a volleyball game, three of our genius boys snuck around the parking lot and drew pornographic pictures on various windshields, including the visiting team’s bus.
I did mention this was a school of less than 100 students, among whom all the high schoolers had a Christian testimony and came from Christian homes and were home-schooled 2 days a week, didn’t I? Oh—and some even tried to use the good boy/girl “Christian” persona to manipulate the people around them.
Like I said—we could deal with things differently and still divvied out our share of suspensions and expulsions; but fallen human nature remains the same whether at public school or in the protection of a private school.
We had some parents who were fully aware of that—they were the good parents who reinforced discipline at home and the great need for Jesus. And then we had other parents who saw their children as perfect angels who would never do anything like that and who only listened to Christian music and watched wholesome shows…right…which is why they sang Lady GaGa and quoted Family Guy in my classroom.
Human nature…
Now my story. Growing up, home school or a private school wasn’t even an option for my family. Both my parents worked, and my dad basically two jobs, to make ends meet. We weren’t poor, but there was a financial struggle that I really didn’t realize until I was older. I never even had the opportunity to take a true “vacation” until my college days. Public school was it.
I was a big (as in tall) kid, yet very shy. I got picked on a lot, especially at the bus stop and on the bus (not much more embarrassing to a 4th grader than being de-pantsed while walking down the school bus aisle). I heard plenty of cussing and locker room jokes about sex. Had fights break out in front of me, saw a drug deal go down in a class room, and learned about the “truth” of evolution. There were plenty of parties, girls became pregnant, and guys got high-fived for the stories of their sexual escapades. Even had a teacher cuss in class—but it was the end of the year and he was retiring, so he didn’t care.
I wasn’t a perfect child—there were plenty of things on that list I didn’t do, but there were also the things I did, partially from peer influence, but completely from having that sinful human nature.
But through it all I had parents who loved me and disciplined me. They valued church, they valued prayer, and they valued the Word. Even when I was a pain in the rear about stuff, they didn’t give me the option—I would be in church. They also weren’t naïve, especially not by my time (being the youngest of 3). They knew I would sneak around and do stuff, but they made extremely clear what they found unacceptable and why. And they made it clear that if I decided to do such things and they caught me or heard about it, I would be in major trouble. That fear actually kept me from doing as much as I could have.
Even though I had the 40+ hour/week influence of public school on my life, by the time I graduated I was set in my beliefs. I still had some rebellious streak things I did when I first went off to college, but I never went the route of fully dropping out of church or questioning the foundations of Christianity in light of all the various godless philosophical and scientific proposals I heard in college. My parents were involved enough in my life and taught me enough that the firm foundation had been laid.
When it was time to go to college, I thought about some Christian universities but ran into more practical problems. Most were more expensive than public schools, and I wanted to get a degree in meteorology—one is very hard pressed to find a Christian/evangelical university with a strong program in such a field of applied physics and mathematics. But by my junior year of college (so, after going one place and then transferring)—I found my school: the University of Oklahoma (Boomer Sooner, by the way).
When I first arrived there, pastoring was not a future option, it wasn’t even on the radar. I was going to get my degree, do grad work, and become a professor.
But on move-in day, some Catholic dude who went to the Baptist Student Union showed up at my dorm-room door with a flyer inviting me to a pizza party welcoming back students (and welcoming new students). Free-pizza at the Baptist place, okay—I’m in. On my way there, I meet another guy in the meteorology program who was going for pizza, then he met and introduced me to another guy in the program who had already been there for two years and who remains one of my best friends to this day.
I got involved there and in a good church. And under the leadership of then BSU-director, Max Barnett, and my church Pastor, Ronnie Rogers, I learned something I never heard in church growing up: the Christian life is to be about this thing called discipleship and investing your life into other people for the sake of Jesus. I spent my first year at this public university being invested in by a BSU staff member, and then was challenged to spend the next two years living in the dorms and looking for opportunities to share the Gospel and invest in the lives of others. And I did.
Somehow I ended up in the “least-reached” no-man’s land of dorms. During my second year at OU, I was the only upperclassman from any campus ministry in my dorm building. I found one freshman who was interested in church stuff, and I discipled him (and he is actively involved in a church plant near Chicago today). But we didn’t have dorm room or study-lounge Bible studies like our friends in other buildings.
I did, however, by virtue of living there get to become good friends with the founder of OU’s Atheists and Agnostics Society (who was yet another fellow meteorology student), as well as a punk-rock skateboarding guy with some Native American spirituality stuff in his “religious” background, a pot-smoking agnostic, and a host of other interesting characters. While my atheist friend made fun of most Christians, mocked them, and would not give them the time of day; God gave me several opportunities to share the Gospel with him—including one of the times Brother Jed (Google him if you don’t know who he is—interesting character) and his cronies came and screamed…I mean “preached”…on campus, and my friend (with some of his fellow AAS officers and members) decided to go out and make fun of him. I joined them and in the course of it ended up with a captive audience of atheist and agnostics with whom I was able to share the true Gospel.
During this time, God changed my heart. I still finished my meteorology degree because I was so far in the program, but I knew without a doubt my true “calling” was to be a pastor who spent my life sharing with, teaching, and investing in people. But looking at my life, I know I never would have gotten there if not for the church and the Baptist Student Union that I found because I went to a secular and public university.
I know my story is just that—my story. Some families and students will honor God best via private or home-schooling. But let’s not knock public schools simply because they’re public schools. My public school experience is a part of my journey in becoming a pastor.
And above all what matters most are parents who are involved, loving, and striving to follow Jesus; and churches and older Christians willing to invest their lives for the sake of the Gospel into students of all stripes.
I think the problem comes when we assume that one educational philosophy works for everyone. That is true in most things, I guess.
“”But let’s not knock public schools simply because they’re public schools.””
Just for the sake of argument, I was a straight-A student in public school, never got in much trouble, and basically enjoyed the time. I also got a thoroughly secular mindset in the process. Only God in His sovereign grace delivered me from that worldview. Only eternity knows what I missed by giving 12 years of my life to the government (and a few more after high school through the Navy, but that’s another story).
I don’t “knock” public schools for being “public” schools. They are the MOST EFFECTIVE INSTITUTION in the United States–much more effective than the church. Public school accomplishes exactly what the industrialist founders wanted: a dumbed down workforce that can be manipulated by the elite and not be able to adequately articulate their grievances. (I have the 19th century circular from the precursor of the Department of Education that states what I just wrote).
I “knock” the public school because everything it stands for is opposed to everything God teaches — by design and government implementation. There have been brighter times and darker times, and shining lights, but the system is opposed to producing well-educated citizens who honor God in all they do.
Just Google, “Tracking in Public Schools.” Before a child gets out of second or third grade the system has already decided where they will fall in the social strata: doctor, lawyer, manager, or such.
Just Google, John Dewey (one of the Fathers of Public Education). Or, B.F. Skinner and outcome based education.
Dave, I must respectfully disagree: I believe the Bible gives us “the” philosophy of education that will “fit” everyone. Also, the big difference between alternative education and public education belies the very basis of your statement: public education is based upon a “one-size fits all” philosophy. That’s a large part of my objection to it.
No, I don’t want to “knock” public education just because it is public. I don’t want to disparage the great Christian teachers (I have several public school teachers in my church who have their children in our private school).
My only goal in these discussions is to be “another voice.” I don’t want to disparage, or “knock” anyone for the sake of “knocking.”
Frank,
You wrote, “I “knock” the public school because everything it stands for is opposed to everything God teaches — by design and government implementation.”
And that, my friend, is why Christians need to be involved in public schools. 🙂
Les
Amen Les.
Amen Les.
Thanks for your story. I can relate. That said…personal anecdotes are rather irrelevant in the discussion. We can all find examples that prove our points and supposedly disprove opposing views.
I am still waiting for someone to show me how elementary school kids are called to be missionaries, scripturally speaking.
I am also still waiting for someone to show me how putting our kids into public school is the ONLY way to reach kids/teachers involved in public schools.
I am also still waiting for someone to discuss the idea of the People of God sending their kids to school in Babylon as a desirable option, even though a couple survived. I am also waiting to see the discussion of how the people of Israel educated their children while under Roman occupation. Roman schools? If not, why not?
Sure…anyone can survive, some might even thrive…but we are not digging down deep enough with the questions on this one. The “attaboys” probably should wait until the issues are actually discussed.
I believe you have been shown Jason. And if it doesn’t match with your position, personal conviction. Fine. I just have a problem with putting a guilt trip on those Christians who have access to the same Bible you do, pray, having access to the same God you do, and deciding to send their children to public school. It is a personal decision, not a legalistic mandate on either side. You have yet to prove that either is wrong.
First, no one has answered those issues. Not even one of them. if they have and I missed it, please point them out to me.
Second, I have not laid a guilt trip on anyone here. I have not demanded one specific way at all. I have NEVER told anyone in my church to do anything with regard to school, nor online.
Third, I haven’t done things because I don’t know if there is ONE right way. My only point on here is to force discussion beyond the simplistic arguments and to answer objections.
Fourth, I have “yet to prove either is wrong” because I am not intending to do so. I just want to see some of the issues dealt with. I have no problem with people doing any of the 3 mentioned methods as long as they think through ALL the issues including their plan to evangelize in whatever scenario they choose.
Fifth, if you actually go back and read my comments you will see all this is very true. I feel like you jumped in mid-stream and made assumptions about my convictions that are way off-base.
The missionary angle might be a little tougher when they start to ban students from sharing the Gospel with their peers.
http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=300205
No it wouldn’t diminish anything Jeff. There is after school, lunches, extracurricular activities etc. God is more powerful and orchestrative than any rule or law.
Debbie,
I can at least agree with you regarding that. God is more powerful than any rule or law.
Max Barrnett is a legend. I did collegiate ministry for years, went to National Collegiate Week, Max is DA MAN! That being said, my story is the same. I went to a largely LDS public High School, then to The University of Wyoming. Not by choice, because my parents were diagnosed with cancer, fought for 2 years and died while I was in college. I couldn’t go far and I needed it to be cheap. In High School, I helped found our FCA (I was the non-Athlete) and in college, I was very active in the BSU. I got my first taste of vocational ministry in college as a Semester Missionary. Public institutions taught me a great deal, and did what most education is not successful at. As I learned the word, I was forced to integrate it immediately. You can talk about how to reach a lost world, but until you actually go out to do it, it’s all theory. Maybe that’s why we suffer in Baptisms in the SBC, we have spent too much time learning and not enough time applying. Just a side thought. I am very thankful that I was in public education.
That being said, public school, especially state college is NOT for everyone. Some are weaker in faith, that’s not a put down, just a reality. They are followers, not leaders. They can’t stand firm, they are weak kneed. Students who cannot stand up on their own need someone to hold them up need to be in Christian Schools. There is NOTHING WRONG WITH THAT. God didn’t make us all the same. In the same ways, parents who are weaker parents may need the help of Christian Schools. Weaker doesn’t mean less effective, it just means that you are not a strong disciplinarian, not a strong leader, there is nothing wrong with that. Just important to know where you are, who you are and who your kids are. We are all different, it takes all types, different kids have different needs.
“They can’t stand firm, they are weak kneed. Students who cannot stand up on their own…”
How exactly is that “not a put down”?
And then this…”not a strong disciplinarian, not a strong leader…”
Not a put down?
Wow…this went downhill fast. Come on, bro.
Those are ridiculous comments on top of the fact that you are not addressing any of the issues that are the real core issues. Of course there are some cultural retreatists out there that dismiss it as evil because it is non-christian, but there are some complex issues in discussion on this issue, and your dismissive comments are not helpful and they do not address what needs to be addressed.
Full disclosure:
I went to a large public school K-12 (6A school in Florida). I went to one of the largest public universities in the nation, the University of Florida.
I was involved in leadership in christian organizations in high school. I was an athlete in multiple sports. I was the captain of the wrestling team. I was an officer in the high school band. I was involved in multiple clubs and service organizations. I was also heavily involved in my church and was also an Eagle Scout.
In college I was in leadership at the BSU/BCM/BSM. I also taught bible studies there. I also helped coach wrestling at a high school. All the while I worked in churches with students, very few of whom were home schooled. In fact growing up I didn’t know any home school kids.
My point: I am a product of public education as well as many other activities.
Or am I?
What is it that actually had impact on me spiritually? It was people teaching me the gospel. How do I know that all my activities didn’t hinder my growth? We don’t know. How much stuff did I have to retrain myself over because of what I saw, learned, and did in many of those environments? A ton.
I am not advocating a mass exodus of public school. I am calling for two things: (1) home discipleship and (2) an honest evaluation of the impact of education on the discipleship of our children.
I don’t believe education, anywhere or of any kind, is morally neutral. That is naive. I think there are DEEP issues that often get glossed over with the throw away terms of “we need to reach the kids on those schools”. Of course we do…but that is not the trump card.
It’s time for deep discussion, not for cheap shots.
BTW, does it take a strong leader or a weak leader to put their kids into the mainstream of what everyone else is doing?
The more I think about it, the more your comments are wrong on multiple levels.
Being a leader is not a great thing, not being a leader is not a bad thing. Some people aren’t leaders. Some people are strong in their faith, some are not. We are told in scripture, if someone is weak in faith, we need to support them, not eat steak and point out “I’m stronger than you”. The point I was making is some students need more structure, more help. God made some people that way. It’s not good or bad, it’s pretty much without value. There is no value on being a good leader. Not everyone should be a leader? I really think you are super imposing value on my statement I didn’t put there. Some kids need to not be in a place they are tempted constantly. They can’t say no. Its important to know that. I am NOT making cheap shots. I have recommended that students I had in youth and college ministry be in a different environment. Some kids NEED home schooled. Some kids NEED Christian Education. Not sure why you view that as such a bad thing. So I don’t completely agree with you, but I partially agree with you. Not sure why you decided that required you jumping in the middle of me with both feet.
Regardless of gifting or disposition…men are called to lead their families and discipline their children. Calling someone a weak leader or weak disciplinarian is equivalent of saying they are not doing their job well.
Perhaps that is not what you meant…but considering their job of the parent, especially the father, does not allow them to acquiesce responsibility because of skill or lack thereof, then it is not ok to be weak in those areas.
I also saw that you called some kids “weak-kneed”….is that something that can be both good and bad? Not sure the good aspect of being “weak kneed”.
Perhaps you didn’t mean it harshly, but a few comments betrayed you a bit. Maybe some re-wording would help.
BTW, This is exactly what I meant when I said this was a deeper issue. You have to get down to the requirements and expectations of parents in home discipleship. Some aspects they CANNOT pass off to others. Just saying “public school isn’t all bad” or “some kids survive public school” is not good enough. It only scratches the surface of the issue. (BTW, those were generic quotes, not a quotation of something said by you, Dan.)
“” Some kids NEED home schooled.””
What does that mean? Homeschooled kids are somehow deficient? Wow! That’s quite an implication. Gee, I wonder why homeschool children score 20% to 30% higher than public school counterparts on college entrance tests? That would be hard to do if you are somehow “inferior.”
“”Some kids NEED Christian Education.””
Where in the Bible can I find a reference that even begins to look like a prescriptive texts telling us to give our children a “non-Christian” education, if they can handle it?
“”Not sure why you decided that required you jumping in the middle of me with both feet.””
Could have been something you said?
Max Barrnett is a legend. I did collegiate ministry for years, went to National Collegiate Week, Max is DA MAN!
Just as a side note, and to interject some humor…
You have not experienced Max until you have experienced him on a Glorietta spring-break trip, where as part of the closing-night comedy and talent show known as “The Follies” he dressed up as a ballerina for a skit that went, “I glad I am a BSU-staff member, there’s nothing I’d rather be; but if I wasn’t a BSU-staff member, I’d be a…”
Of course, the dude who did the fencepost was also pretty good.
Paul calls wives “weaker vessels”. Would you take objection with Paul?
No.
But you aren’t Paul and you didn’t quote Scripture…and that is not the same thing.
The call for parents, specifically fathers, is to lead and to disciple. One cannot make excuses for that because of temperament or gifting.
If the father’s job is to discipline his children…to say he is a weak discipliner is to say that he is not doing his job well.
I am sorry you took it that way Jason, and I will try to explain better. There are some parents who don’t have a good starting place, they have been Christians for less time. They need some help from the Body of Christ when it comes to parenting. They are not as strong leading their children in faith. Some parents have a hard time connecting with kids, just the way they are. They need some help. Some kids are easy to sway, just their personality. It’s not anything wrong with the kids, I have had great kids in youth who couldn’t lead to save their lives, but were great supporters. I have no bad thoughts or opinions about those kids, they were just different. Great organizers, great support, not strong leaders.
But in order to help them grow and become better leaders and disciplers of their children, you don’t say “you can’t do it; let the school do it, let the church do it”…you teach them how to do it. That is called discipleship. You don’t make excuses for them, you teach them and encourage them and then expect them to do it.
If someone is a new believer or selfish by nature we don’t make excuses for why they don’t need to give (tithe)to the church. We teach them the expectations, encourage them, and expect them to do it.
BTW, as a point of contention…it isn’t the way I “took it” that is the problem. You, maybe inadvertently, denigrated the responsibility of the father (and parents) by your comments. You also took a cheap shot saying that “weak kneed” kids may be better off in home school. Those are not me misreading your comments. You made them. I am willing to give you the benefit of the doubt and say you got carried away (“weak kneed” comment) and that you probably should have worded the argument differently (“weak disciplinarian” comment), but I did not misrepresent or just “take it that way”.
That said, I agree that some people are not leaders by nature. I don’t expect all kids or all adults to be leaders in every area…BUT I do expect the men to lead their families. That is their responsibility. No excuses.
It is amazing to me the passion that the whole education discussion brings.
True.
There are a lot of red herrings in this type of discussion. It is a complex issue and some people have had bad experiences (on both sides) with extremists. That taints the discussion as well. Much time is wasted dealing with straw-man arguments because of these experiences.
The reality is I am not an advocate of an exodus at all. I just want to get past the cheesy arguments like “how do we evangelize those kids without our kids in there?” We don’t ask that about kids in private school or home-schools, though it’s an equally valid issue…with a very similar answer.
I am not sure why that’s a cheesy argument Jason, I think it’s perfectly valid. Maybe you see it differently, but my kids who are believers are salt and light. Couldn’t home school be considered putting the lamp under a bushel? Just a thought and different viewpoint.
– Kids are not evangelizing the lost by their mere presence in school.
– Very little evangelism takes place in school – public or private.. Just a reality.
– Reaching them while they are at school is not the best way to reach them, it definitely is not the ONLY way. So the idea that if our kids are not in there with them then we can’t reach them is amiss.
– The responsibility of the church is not ONLY to reach non-believers but to do what is best for the believers and their growth. The fact that some kids survive is not enough to say that pubic school has no negative impact on christian kids.
The reason I said it is cheesy is because it is an attempt to throw down a christian trump card, but it really shows a lack of thought to the layers of issues in the discussion. I would never advocate the giving up of our responsibility to share the Gospel…but to assume THAT is the only or best method is naive. It also fails to incorporate a more well-rounded method of evangelism of both kids and parents.
There needs to be more discussion around the impact of the school on the kids going in. I would say that more often than not the light is being snuffed and salt trampled rather than the other way around.
Plus, what age group are we talking about here? Is it the responsibility of a 6 year old to evangelize his friends? A lot different discussion than the 18 year old.
Jason: I just don’t think you can say that. It’s simply not true.
Which part?
Which part Jason? All of it. I think you need to tone down your judgmental tone. This is getting legalistic. It shouldn’t be.
Debbie,
I have asked a lot of questions and debated a lot of points, but I have not made any pronouncement as to one right way or even any wrong ways.
I think you might need to re-read the points. You have assumed a lot, and you are way off-base.
I will be glad to address any specific issue you might have, but to accuse me of legalism though I have not not made any proclamation of any right way is simply foolish.
My 9 year old evangelises her friends. I am not sure about research or statistics, but our church does a Good News Club with Child Evangelism Fellowship, and we reach kids in school. Not the only thing we do, but it’s one of them. My daughter gave her friend a bible. There is a reality about reaching 1-4th graders. At that age, they don’t hate the church, and they still believe in God. In High School it’s MUCH harder to reach them. I say, let’s give it a shot. I am not everyone, and I think my kids are pretty special, but 3 of my kids friends have come to church here, they have attended VBS. They are getting saved, thanks to the outreach in school. You can make all the arguments you want, but I watch my little girl spend time with her Christian teacher. My son talks to his Christian teacher about God IN CLASS. Seems to be working for us. Maybe it only happens in Iowa.
Of course it happens. I didn’t say it doesn’t happen anywhere or that it can’t happen. (BTW, praise God for the impact you are having.)
But is that the norm for most kids coming from our churches going into the schools? (No.)
All of that is besides my main point, which was: having our kids in public school is not the ONLY or best way to evangelize. There are many ways to skin a cat (as they say in Texas) – my point was that the argument that “if you want to reach these kids, you must send your kids to public school” is silly.
That point still stands.
I would agree partially. I don’t think it’s the ONLY way, but it’s defiantly A way.
Absolutely it is “a way”.
I think because I have been going after the arguments of the pro-public school people that people assume I am against public school in every situation. That is not the case at all. I am just trying to point out weak arguments and get people to branch out a little bit in their thinking.
Should we not send missionaries to foreign paganistic countries? We might just end up with pagan missionaries? God is where we are. God is not just in Christian schools or homeschools, He is able to use those children from k-12. That point still stands too.
No one disputes that point, Debbie.
This is what I mean with simplistic arguments that don’t attack the full layers of discussion. This is a deep discussion.
The main point of my story up there is that human nature is going to be the same wherever we are at. The question is: how are we bringing the Gospel into the life of our children. When I was a kid in public school it was through the love of my parents. When I was a young man in public university it was through my church (a large percentage of the BSU was involved in my church, so I kind of count the two as a part of each other, though clearly a BSU/BCM/whatever is a parachurch ministry). For some, the gospel can be effectively applied even in the midst of the culture of public education and all of their attempts at indoctrination (hence my non-horror public ed story in response to much of the disdain tossed in the direction of public schools). For others, it will be through private education choices. And still for others a mix. Churches should equip the parents with wisdom to make the proper choice in such matter and not just toss out talking points and rhetoric about why choice A is good and choice B is bad. Yet out of the 7 churches I’ve been in throughout my life (all in 7 different locations where I’ve lived), only my college church had a culture of discipleship and equipping to impact people to a deeper degree in daily life and to plant in them the seeds to disciple others. Perhaps our biggest failure isn’t school choice but church culture–do we breed discipleship? Does one generation invest in the next (and one generation of parents in the next). In my experience, at least, by and large: no. I just want to get past the cheesy arguments like “how do we evangelize those kids without our kids in there?” Might I suggest rephrasing this: “How do we evangelize those families without our involvement there.” For a Christian parent wanting to go the public school route for salt and light, it shouldn’t be simply: “Let me send my child and let them tell their classmates about Jesus.” But: “As I send my child, I will also look for opportunities to get involved in the lives of other families either through PTA/PTO, running for School Board, volunteer organizations, home clubs, homework study groups, or being a teacher.” Granted in some positions you cannot openly share your faith; but… Read more »
“Yet out of the 7 churches I’ve been in throughout my life (all in 7 different locations where I’ve lived), only my college church had a culture of discipleship and equipping to impact people to a deeper degree in daily life and to plant in them the seeds to disciple others. Perhaps our biggest failure isn’t school choice but church culture–do we breed discipleship? Does one generation invest in the next (and one generation of parents in the next). In my experience, at least, by and large: no.”
Dead on.
“you can at the very least use it as an opportunity to build relationships to attempt to bring out of the school scene and into places where you can share your faith.”
Interestingly enough, you can be involved in a TON of activities, even ones connected to public schools WITHOUT sending your kids there.
It mustn’t be an either/or situation, in my experience.
Interestingly enough, you can be involved in a TON of activities
True… but when it comes to the private/home schoolers I know: most aren’t.
(and I concede you can also say the same about Christian public school parents)
Totally true. That is a huge weakness of that movement.
That is why, no matter the choice a family makes, they need to think through (a) how they are going to disciple their kids, (b) how their education choice will help/hinder that, (c) what steps they are going to take to evangelize others, and (d) how does this impact their local church.
Mike, I don’t disagree with your premise, necessarily. Except consider that public school students have a “ton” of homework that prevents active involvement in a “ton” of activities.
One of the activities public school families do not have time for is “family.”
And, having chaperoned some of those “activities” public school students participate in, I’m not sure we should automatically conclude they are positive experiences.
Gotta say I don’t buy that.
From my own experience, from family (my sister’s kids), and from other kids I know: they don’t have so much homework to prevent them from doing things.
Even with homework there’s plenty of time for hours of X-Box and catching Glee and American Idol. Not to mention the sports they play.
If anything, we don’t have time issues, but stewardship of time issues.
I would disagree with that. There are plenty of school activities that include families and at least in Oklahoma, the families do participate and are active. That would include pre-school.
I wonder where we put God in all of this. I read about Pastors in China who live in fear for their lives and the lives of their wives and children, but go forward to do the work of the Gospel. Now, I know the argument “protection from the spirit doesn’t mean we put our kids in harms way” but I have a hard time justifying that in the Bible. I heard Erwin McManus say that he doesn’t focus on keeping his kids safe. He said that’s an insane goal, cancer and fires and disasters and such, he doesn’t have the power to keep them safe. He says he is more interested in making his kids dangerous. I have thought about that a lot. How much do I want to protect my kids, and how much do I want my kids to live in the power of God through the Holy Spirit. After all, greater is He who is in my kids than he who is in the world, right? Do I really trust God? Do I believe the commands of Jesus only apply to adults? Are my kids going to be persecuted, tempted, tried and tested? What does that mean if I say yes? What does that mean if I say no? Can I protect my kids from God? I know know, I am just thinking through these things. Do I trust my kids to God and send them out like sheep among wolves? Most of you seem to say “no way” but I am not sure that is what I hear Jesus saying. Just some things I am thinking about, feel free to take chunks out of me now.
Dan,
I said I was going to bow out, but your post prompted a question I’d like to ask you if you’d care to answer.
I’ll concede the point that perhaps your children could be really good witnesses in public school and pretty good examples of a sanctified life — mine were.
But, do we really believe that we as leaders (I’m a pastor) should not err on the side of caution. By and large most children of most families in my last three churches combined are the kind that would be “missionaries” in public school.
Actually, they would be like missionaries — the kind that got eaten by the cannibals.
Several posts have mentioned “choice.”
Why is it the government will not allow choice? Why is it the public government system cannot survive if parents are given choices?
I think the answer is obvious–if parents were allowed to send there children anywhere they choose, and given vouchers to do so, they would exit the public square of education en masse.
That alone should tell us something.
Thanks everybody for the discussion. I’m going to exercise some personal restraint and bow out of the discussion. I think some critical issues have been raised and zero minds have been changed.
I do think it was a much more civil discussion than some we’ve had here, despite the fact this is definitely a “hot-button issue.”
Thanks for you views and opinion Frank, I appreciate your candor to share and be honest, and i apologize for those times I have seemed rude or disrespectful to you.
Dan, apology not needed but graciously accepted.
Every once in a while I run into my best self — but it is not often. I pray God will thoroughly bless you as you follow Him.