Read Denny Burk’s latest post.
He denies the gospel, abandons the biblical gospel, and unmasks himself.
About Dave Miller
Dave Miller is the senior pastor of Southern Hills Baptist Church in Sioux City, Iowa, and editor of SBC Voices. He served as President of the 2017 SBC Pastors’ Conference. He is a graduate of Palm Beach Atlantic and SWBTS. He has pastored churches in Florida, Virginia, and Iowa. Twitter
And if anyone wonders why doctrinal standards matter, Rob Bell’s descent into heresy is a compelling example.
DAVID,
why is this given as a ‘related post’ ?:
video – Billy Graham speaking at the funeral of his wife, Ruth Bell Graham
I can’t see the significance or the connection of it to Denny Burk’s post on Rob Bell.
I think the WordPress system auto-generates those. And both contain video links, so it’s assuming that video linked posts are related.
It’s just computers being dumb. This isn’t the one that won Jeopardy, it’s more like his dumb cousin.
Doug is right – it was likely classified as a ‘related post’ because the word “Bell” was used in both titles.
“This isn’t the [computer] that won Jeopardy, it’s more like his dumb cousin.” – ROFL 😀
Squirrel
Good point on the “Bell” as well.
So, there you have it: two “Bell” video linked posts.
Somethings are coincidence.
Or, perhaps, a valuable thought: time is better spent contemplating Billy Graham, what he said at his wife’s funeral, and what his and her legacy are more than just reading blogs.
He had to go with Harper to publish it. I was half-expecting a Christian publisher when I looked it up.
Rob Bell has, for so long, actually refused to clarify what he believes on any subject so well that he had raised ambiguity to a high art. At least he is finally actually saying what he really believes.
And, now that he is actually saying what he believes, it gives all of us who have been saying that he was a heretic for years a chance to say, “See? Told ya!” (Not that I ever would, of course. I’m saving up all my “I told you so”s to say to all my amillennial friends during the rapture…)
Squirrel
I never had a doubt about that heretical snake in the grass. May his mouth be stopped!
I don’t even know who Rob Bell is, so I really don’t care about his opinion. Doesn’t sound too different from lots of people in our culture. We don’t have some vested interest in who goes to heaven, who goes to hell, why, and whether there are even such places. We have no way of knowing that because all of that knowledge is beyond our grasp. But we do have Jesus’ teaching in the Gospels, and he squarely addresses these matters. These issues must be important. Jesus thought they were important. Jesus does not seem to present universalism in the… Read more »
As I understand it, Ben now works in DC. If that is so, then I can tell you by the IP address, that Ben is not Christiane. She does not reveal her identity and I will not reveal her location. I’ve only met Ben once, and I think he would get a kick out of assuming a false identity and blogging on a Baptist blog. But I doubt he cares enough about Baptist life now to take the time to do that. There was a rumor that Ben had become Catholic, but Ben told me that I should not believe… Read more »
Thanks, Dave.
I was joking about it being Ben, but thanks for the info.
Dave:
I heard now that Judd Gregg from New Hampshire has retired, that B. Cole is working for Congressman Darrell Issa (sp?, California, I think).
Issa is going to be leading the investigatory charges in Congress that are expected to be brought against the Obama Administration.
If what I heard is accurate, he probably has an interesting job over the next few months.
“I told you so” — or at least, I meant to.
I didn’t know there was any doubt about Bell. Perhaps Bell and John Shelby Spong have been collaborating. After all, why should they let issues of the virgin birth, the resurrection and hell make any difference in their theology.
Bell: How could that God ever be good? How could that God ever be trusted? And how could that ever be good news?
Voddie says that these are the WRONG questions.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lD1yv4J6ohE&feature=player_embedded
Rob Bell finally enlightens us that Jesus was lying in Matt. 7:13-14. Disgusting.
I will pray for the members of his church, that they be given the knowledge of the truth and come out from his heresy.
Hi all, I’m probably going to start a controversy. It won’t be the first time. :0) First, the disclaimer: I’m no Rob Bell fan (Not because I don’t like him…I honestly know little about him), and I’m definitely not a universalist. There is too much about hell in the Bible to ignore it. But, and I’ve only read Denny Burk’s account linked above, Mr. Bell brings up some really good points. I don’t think he answers them well, but the questions – at least some of them – are excellent. More on that below. The task of theology is interpreting… Read more »
Jim, I agree that we must answer the questions that our culture asks. 1 Peter 3:15 But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear. However, we must also root out the false presuppositions of those questions, especially of Bell’s sort. When Bell asks how such a God could ever be good, he presumes that a good God would not send people to Hell. Bell confines God’s goodness to his own opinion of what “good”… Read more »
Hi Chase, With all due respect, I think you just overemphasized it, if it can be overemphasized. I do not agree that God’s love extends from his holiness. I don’t think that point can be shown from Scripture. I think that if anything, Scripture might lean toward God’s holiness as a function of his love, since the Bible says God is love. But I am willing to hold the two truths in tension. Although I do think we can agree that it would be good to provide a better definition of “good,” reframing the question does not answer the original… Read more »
Jim, how can God’s holiness be a “function of His love?” What does this mean?
And could God’s love be a function of His holiness?
Jim,
I would say that God’s love extends from his holiness because God loves that which is in accord with his holiness, and hates that which is contrary to it (Prov. 3:32, 11:5, 15:26).
I don’t think we’re shuffling the question under the rug, because the question is erroneous. Pointing out the flaws of the question answers the question. “Good” is defined by God; what God is, good is. He is not subject to an external definition of “good,” especially one created by humans.
Typo on the scripture citations. They should be Prov. 3:32, 15:26, and Psalm 11:5.
You can only say:
‘God IS love’
‘God IS holy’
He IS His traits.
Hey Chase, “Good” is indeed defined by God but if it cannot be understood by us, then the term is meaningless to us. God has accommodated himself to humanity, most notably in the incarnation. If “good” does not have some sort of meaningful reflection in our understanding, it becomes a meaningless term. What about “God commends his love toward us in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us?” When I was a sinner, God still loved me. I was against his holiness, and yet Christ loved me enough to die for me. I think this text is… Read more »
Jim, I don’t mean that humans can never understand what good is, but rather that humans should understand what good is through what God has revealed to us in his Word. He isn’t subject to our definition, because our definition should be created by what he has revealed to us, both by his attributes and his law. I apologize if I was ambiguous. Ephesians 1:3-6 sheds some light on how God loves us while we are sinners: “Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places… Read more »
I clicked through, read it and the comments and discovered— Joe Blackmon and Christiane argue on other blogs too. And here I thought we were special at SBC Voices, especially now that Wade Burleson’s not really blogging anymore. Not much else to say. Given Burk’s response to the appropriate question of “Should we wait until we’ve actually seen the book?” For those of you that don’t read through, his response was “I’ve seen the preview copy of the book.” And the whole discussion about Ghandi? I had this conversation with a person that posted a question on my blog 2… Read more »
Can a Universalist be a Christian?
Universalism is not Christian doctrine – it is a false gospel and Paul had some harsh words about those.
But I don’t know the state of Rob Bell’s eternal soul. From what Denny Burk reported, I’ve got a pretty good idea of his current fundamental theological error.
That needs to be exposed publicly and rejected.
Why would a Universalist bother with being a Christian?
Bill Mac: That is a great question, and one that I think we should not try to answer. Here’s what we can say, that being a Christian means that one trusts in Christ for salvation and believes that Christ is who he said he is and did what he said he came to do. Universalism is a theological error of mammoth proportions. We simply do not have the support for that in Jesus’ teachings. It is a construct of various aspects of God’s character plus our own notions and conjecture. To your question, I am sure that there are thousands… Read more »
Doug: You might read John Paul I on this. He believed that the grace of Christ and love of God was so vast and the work on the cross so effective that at the end of the age people would see Christ for who he is and receive him. He extended this to sincere people of other faiths. I am not sure he extended to Hitler, Pol Pot, Stalin etc. But you get my drift. He was not denying anything about Christ, he was actually increasing the scope of Christ’s power and forgiveness. He increased it beyond where Christ said… Read more »
True—
I think my question was a perspective matter. I can see how a Christian might drift toward universalism, and have to deal with that: Can a Christian be a Universalist?
From the other side: if one is already a Universalist (all paths lead to God who says we’re all ok), why would they bother being a Christian?
I’m familiar with some of the questions regarding CS Lewis, John Stott, and a few others.
I think that might have been more in a snark-mode than a real question.
It’s a “which comes first” question. A Christian could proceed into that error, but from the starting point of universalism, why are you coming to Christ? Not for salvation, not because you need atonement…so could you become a Christian? The whole idea of merciful annhila….(spelling bad) God destroying rather than eternally punishing or even eventually releasing from Hell into Heaven, while I don’t see those in Scripture, I can see a Christian person coming to those views. I’d think they were wrong, but not unsaved, depending on the rest of how they got to that point and whatever else they… Read more »
Doug,
“Annihilationism”
I can’t spell either — had to google it…
Maybe there’s a Swiss Army Knife with spell-check?
Squirrel
I think the $900 one had a spell checker. Or the size of the knife persuades others your spelling doesn’t matter.
Doug
Many people with aberrant theology “consider themselves” to be Christian. Then again, I could “consider myself” to be a millionaire, but that wouldn’t change my bank balance one iota.
This is why we need to let the Bible define our beliefs. Our fallen minds will “consider” just about anything, because, in our fallen state, we suppress the truth in our unrighteousness.
Squirrel
I read part of a book in Barnes and Nobles and didn’t buy it written by Pope John Paul II. It’s one of several times in my life that I’ve regretted not buying a book or taking a pamphlet. The other time was the brochure I saw in Lifeway where they admitted the reason they created the Holman Christian Standard Bible was because they were tired of paying royalties to use the NIV in Sunday School literature. Now their marketing folks say “Oh, every generation needs it’s own translation of God’s word….” Anyway, I wish I had bought that book… Read more »
“I feel much freer now that I am certain the pope is the Antichrist.” – Martin Luther
JOE, do you remember the name of his book?
And circle May 1st on your calendar, this year. You will find out why.
BTW, next time you are browsing, examine ‘Jesus of Nazareth’ by Benedict XVI. You might actually like it.
I do not remember the name of the book. It is unfortunate that I didn’t go ahead and buy it so I could quote page numbers, publication date, yadda, yadda, yadda, or even scan in a copy of the page so that everyone could see that what he believed and what Jesus taught are two different, diametrically oppossed things.
John Paul II could consider himself to be whatever he liked, but papists are not Christians. There are undoubtedly some true believers who are members of the synagogue of Satan, but only through ignorance, of not knowing and believing the Roman church-state’s damnable heresies.
Hi CHASE, What is your opinion of Rev. Billy Graham? Is Dr. Graham still considered a Southern Baptist, or has the SBC dis-owned him in any way? For me, Dr. Graham represents the best in evangelical Christian servants of Our Lord, but I understand that not all Southern Baptists approve of him. What are your feelings on reading the following article? Thanks for sharing your thoughts. “When Karol Wojtyla stepped out on the Vatican balcony on October 16, 1978, as the new Pope John Paul II, waving to the crowds in St. Peter’s Square on the first day of his… Read more »
Christiane,
I don’t have time to read the entire article right now, but I will try to later tonight.
Regarding Graham, I think that it is very sad that he compromised and worked together with Catholics later in his life. Preaching the Gospel is of little effect if those whom you reach are turned over to the Catholic church and their Satanic doctrine of justification by works.
God used Billy Graham in drawing me to Himself, as I came to Christ at a Billy Graham Crusade in Atlanta Fulton County Stadium in 1973. However, his ecumenical stance regarding Romanism is troubling to me. I have also read statements of his where he seems to flirt with annihilationism, and that also is troubling to me. I do not believe that Karol Wojtyla was a true Christian, but a false teacher who preyed on the ignorance and superstition of many – as is Joseph Ratzinger now. I also disagree with Luther’s positions on many issues, such as his anti-Semitism,… Read more »
I realize this is off topic (but in reality so too is this anti-catholic bigotry that is going on), but I have to speak up. If it was not for the “papists” we would still have some “damnable” heresies floating around (or at least more so than they are). Off the top of my head; Arianism, Gnosticism, Pelagianism, Donatism, Modalism, ect. You see it was CATHOLICS like Augustine, Tertullian, Irenaeus, POPE Gregory I, ect that fought against these heretical beliefs. It was these “papists” who solidified and codified doctrines such as the trinity and the deity of Christ Jesus. I… Read more »
“Papists” didn’t solidify the doctrines of the Trinity or the Deity of Christ. The Church did, well before the Pope begin to claim he could speak without making errors or that he was to be trusted absolutely in things without comparing his words to Scripture. Religious thoughts change. The RCC of today isn’t the same as the RCC of Aquinas and certainly not of Augustine. The SBC isn’t the same as the SBC of either Boyce, Broadus, Elliot or Pinnock. And that’s just 150 years—the Catholic Church has been around much longer. And Luther made several mistakes—his condemnation later in… Read more »
Hi DOUG HIBBARD,
Your help is needed:
“The RCC of today isn’t the same as the RCC of Aquinas and certainly not of Augustine.”
DOUG, someone needs to tell the Catholic Church to take St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Augustine off of their list of ‘Doctors of the Church’, the special title given to the twenty-three individuals (three of them women) who are considered to have greatly increased the Catholic Church’s understanding of theology.
Christiane, The church has changed since then. Aquinas and Augustine are certainly known and respected, and yes are on the “Doctors of the Church” list. Yet Augustine wrote before the schism with the East, Aquinas before the Reformation, and the RCC made changes in response to both of those actions. Likewise various councils and Popes since then—unless they’ve gone back to Mass in Latin. In Augustine’s time clerical celibacy wasn’t the official rule though it may have been common. There are a plenty of differences, both practical and theological. That they added to the the understanding of theology isn’t in… Read more »
No doubt Luther did have some issue with Jews, but if you follow his writings, you’ll find that was not the case initially. Luther sincerely thought Jesus would be coming soon and he wanted the Jews to accept Christ without delay. There is also evidence, that he made sure they had safe travel out of Wittenberg. His frustration and anger grew as the Jews did not accept Christ. There is a great website ‘BeggarsAll’ that has a pretty extensive list of Luther’s writings and commentary. I highly recommend Jim Swan on Luther. I found it very helpful.
Blessings
I believe what I remember is that Luther’s viewpoints on the Jews changed somewhat, but that the biggest part of why he gets labeled anti-Semitic came later in life. There are a few opinions on it, one of which was that he reached a point that he thought the Jews were working against him. Also a few hints that some medical issues were involved. I think Metaxas highlighted some of the issues in his biography on Bonhoeffer, pointing out that Hitler misused those statements to persuade the German people at the beginning of the Nazi era. That may not be… Read more »
Smuschany, Doug already said most of what I would have, but I must note that I do not see how speaking the truth about Catholics is bigotry. The Roman church-state is an enemy of Christ, and works constantly against him. Jesus certainly didn’t pull punches when dealing with his enemies: Mt. 12:34 You brood of vipers, how can you who are evil say anything good? For the mouth speaks what the heart is full of. Mt. 23:33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?” Mt. 23:27 “Woe to you, teachers of the law… Read more »
Anti-catholic bigotry, huh? When the Catholic church repents of its unbiblical, heretical stances on (a) salvation (b) the Lord’s Supper (c) pergatory (d) the perpetual virginity of Mary (e) the sinlessness of Mary (f) inclusivism (all religions lead to the same place) then I’ll be happy to issue an apology for my “anti-catholic bigotry”. Until then, I hope you don’t expect me to feel even an ounce of remorse.
“You see it was CATHOLICS like Augustine, Tertullian, Irenaeus, POPE Gregory I, ect that fought against these heretical beliefs…”
Smuschany, wow. Anachronism much?
Squirrel
What prompted my question was the mention of Bell and Spong together. Whatever errors Bell might embrace (and I don’t know too much about him), I would be reluctant to lump him with Spong, who although seeming to retain the label of Christian, has by all accounts abandoned nearly all essential Christian doctrines. I agree that a Universalist has no reason to become a Christian, but I would not characterize a Christian who has embraced universalism as an apostate (without other evidence).
Bill, I accept your statements about Spong and Bell. But let’s be honest here. Bell is so far our of the Christian boat, that it’s hard to even believe he is even in the same Navy. Bell is a heretic, and Spong, perhaps has gone right past heresy into full-blown apostasy. Some of Bell’s thoughts on the Christian faith (From Velvet Elvis): On the Virgin Birth: “What if tomorrow someone digs up definitive proof that Jesus had a real, earthly, biological father named Larry, and archeologists find Larry’s tomb and do DNA samples and prove beyond a shadow of a… Read more »
Bell was all the rage in seeker mega circles about 6 years ago. Staffers would sit enthralled before their computers watching Nooma DVD’s. I admit many were very well done and the messages were penetrating. But there was one tiny problem: What he left out was was too obvious for anyone who knew the full Gospel that makes the Good News, good. This was before he did his Mars Hill sojourn, I think. It was around the time Velvet Elvis became quite big in some seeker circles. I remember one particular video, “Bull Horn Guy” which made fun of people… Read more »
Lydia,
If Chief Katie’s quotes are correct, I am not only not interested in Rob Bell, I also find him pretty vacuous.
Yeah, and he’s a pretty shallow thinker, too. 🙂
Louis, I took the quotes from his book, Velvet Elvis. I try to make sure that what I put out is accurate and can be backed up with some evidence. I still make mistakes however. Plus, lot’s of people take quotes out of context, or even resort to ‘quote-mining’. That’s dishonest, but sadly many people resort to it. I’ll be happy to provide quotes, and links if you’d like to see them. YouTube also has many videos of Bell being… well, Bell. I don’t know what Christian people are thinking to look up to Bell as any kind of purveyor… Read more »
Chief Katie – you are great!
I’m like Louis: Rob Bell is so far off my radar, I had to google him to know who he is. I have never read anything of his, and I probably won’t buy this book. Like Jim G., I think he asks some good questions, even if I do not agree what what seems to be his answers. Maybe we should be quicker to focus on the people–the presubmably unsaved people–who ask such questions and/or to whom these questions appeal than to jump in with our answers. My experience, starting with myself before I was saved as an adult, is… Read more »
If anyone wonders how popular Bell is, just consider the 974 comments on Justin Taylor’s blog. That is a lot of commenting!
Well, then let me be the one that raises some points then: 1. This is based on supposition of what he’ll write rather than what he wrote in this upcoming book. If you go back to Velvet Elvis, Bell was roundly castigated for “questioning the virgin birth” where if you read it in context to the entire chapter, he wasn’t doing that at all. He writes very much in the style of stream of consciousness (contact your local English/Reading teacher for examples and explanations) which really works against him because he may throw out a question and answer it literally… Read more »
Bill, it is inaccurate to say that the opinions given were made in anticipation of what was going to be written. Those who have reviewed the book were given sample chapters, and they made their reviews from a part of the book, not the whole thing. For your position to be true you would have to assert that the rest of the book corrects that which was released. Odd that publishers would release parts of a book that would mislead the reviewers. Rob Bell has been abandoning orthodoxy for some time. It should not surprise anyone that he has more… Read more »
Dave,
Rob Bell was castigated about a paragraph lifted with zero context talking about the virgin birth. A little sentence, and the entire premise of the chapter, roundly refute the castigation. Yet no one cares…
Everyone loves a good pile on…
Do you believe that Rob Bell holds to the biblical gospel?
What I have read, seen and heard leads me to believe that he is an infidel, a false teacher, and that his heresy needs to be exposed.
Are you saying that my impression is not true?
I think that Rob Bell could definitely phrase some things better to avoid controversy. Sometimes I think that he likes to be controversial to spark discussion and create attention.
I can name several SBC pastors that fit that same mold.
Dave, let’s do this via email off the board because I want to know what areas you think he’s strayed and let me take that, research, and I’ll respond with either an agreement with you per topic or I’ll give you some links and quotes.
I’m definitely willing to learn here.
A few thoughts: First, it certainly appears that Rob Bell IS moving in this direction. But I think everyone owes it to him to actually READ the book first. In my experience Rob’s go to technique is to ask provocative questions, appear to be headed into straight heresy and then pull back and give an answer that is usually Biblical. For instance, I re-read the first part of Velvet Elvis last night. And in the very quote that Chief Katie (accurately) gave on the virgin birth the very NEXT sentence that she didn’t quote is something like “I affirm the… Read more »
anon, Seriously, Bell knows the dividing line. Do you seriously think that he can write an entire paragraph regarding the virgin birth, try to associate it with paganism and then ask the question if it REALLY MATTERS? You can’t give a one liner “I affirm the Virgin Birth” after spending a bunch of words doing his best to marginalize it and expect to taken seriously. What was the purpose of that paragraph? He’s intellectually dishonest, and he knows it. If you believe in the virgin birth than you don’t try to weave doubt or make excuses for people who don’t… Read more »
CK: I don’t disagree with anything you said there…and don’t get me wrong. I am NOT trying to defend RB. I think we probably all know what we will read in his book….but the fact remains we should take the idea of condemning someone as a heretic seriously enough to wait 30 days, read the book for ourselves, and then present the arguments. Blogs/Twitter do us a great disservice here! And I was simply pointing out that you happened to have “quote-mined” Velvet Elvis in your above post at least as it relates to the Virgin Birth. Believe me: I… Read more »
The entire premise of that entire chapter is about the strength of your faith. He was basically asking, “What would happen to your faith if…” and went into the virgin birth. He wasn’t questioning the virgin birth at all. That is what everyone is forgetting. The entire chapter is asking the question what would happen to your faith if something came along and destroyed it. The best example I can come up with is what would happen to your faith if evolution is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt. Would your faith in Christ be shattered or would Jesus… Read more »
Is that akin to asking the question “What would happen to your faith if they found Jesus’ body in a tomb?”
Asking those kinds of questions are just stepping stones on the path of denying biblical truth.
I think Jeff is right.
We know that without the Virgin Birth our faith is useless.
I think that’s a relevant question to ask, particular if you are trying to prove a point about a person’s faith. What would happen if Jesus’ body was found? For me, for everything that I know, everything that I’ve seen, and everything I believe, I’d still follow Christ without question. I asked that question when I was in college and had a BCM Director that encouraged me to search for the answer. He provided me with a reading list of both scriptures and books discussing different facets of my question. I found it and it strengthened my faith. Had someone… Read more »
What would happen if Jesus’ body was found? I asked that question when I was in college and had a BCM Director that encouraged me to search for the answer.
Considering when you probably went to college and what passed for “Baptist” on a college campus then, I’m not at all surprised what you were told.
The only answer that matters to that question is:
if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.
I Cor 15:14 (NASB)
That was the scripture he led with me.
He also was very patient with me and my questions.
He was very much the antithesis of you.
I’m very thankful to have had him in my life because had it been you, I would have walked away from the faith completely because I can’t see why anyone would want what you have.
And a Christian would have started with that scripture and stopped with that scripture. Of course, he didn’t stop there–the Bible isn’t sufficient. After all, it’s just a book of fairy tales.
He was very much the antithesis of you.
Thank you for the compliment.
Let’s not go down this path. One of the best things that has happened here is that we have started talking things over instead of arguing and insulting.
We just are not going there.
Discuss the subject, but I believe we can have an adult discussion without insults – even when the subject is volatile like this one.
So it’s wrong that this BCM Director gave me scripture to study and then some books written by some scholars explaining why they had the conclusions that they had looking at the same scriptures?
Wow.
And I thought Ken Silva was a lunatic…
anon. Do you know what quote-mining is? It doesn’t appear that you do. Quote-mining is taking one part of a persons statement and purposely attaching it to something else they said, to try to prove a point. Or try to make it look like someone said something they didn’t. Gail Riplinger is a pro at that. I posted the quote exactly as I read it. His brief, “I affirm the virgin birth” cancels out everything he said previous. If he didn’t believe that, then why say it? Bell has a bad habit of doing this. Ever hear his 11 minute… Read more »
I watch evangelists coming into churches all the time eroding people’s faith in order to trump up the numbers of salvations, rededications, etc.
We keep inviting them back.
Did you even read Velvet Elvis?
Anyone familiar with the White Bucket?
Look it up and ask yourself if your church could do something similar to this.
Oh, so if you give to the poor and do charity then it doesn’t matter if you preach heretical doctrine? Wow, glad I’m not in your church.
No.
You missed it entirely.
Could your church do something like this is what I asked.
I doubt your church could do something like this.
And this has zero to do with doctrine.
Our church sponsers full time missionaries in some of the poorest parts of the world–Bangledesh, Mozambique, etc. We support homeless ministries in the area and volunteer at a crisis pregnancy center. We have at least 3 teams per year of volunteers taking time off their jobs to go to different countires to provide medical aid and food to people who need it while sharing the gospel. Don’t you blather to me about what my church does or doesn’t do. The point IS doctrine. Rob Bell’s church may be doing something for poor people but since he is preaching a false… Read more »
Answer the question.
Could your church do something like this?
Quite obviously if we do other stuff as noted above we could…oh, and WE DID. About a year ago when things were particularly harsh in this economy, we not only worked through the benevolence fund to help folks in our church out, but we set up boxes in the sanctuary for people to bring non-perishable food items to share with folks who had need. Now, what does it matter what RB and his church are doing if they’re spreading a false gospel? So spreading a false gospel is ok as long as you help poor people? I’m glad I’m not… Read more »
No, it’s not okay to spread a false gospel at all. If you want it said, then considered it said. Please, Ctrl+C this so you can put it in your folder of things that I’ve said despite you trying to look like you’re boxing me into a corner. However, it’s easy to go off somewhere far off and do missions and it’s easy to bring canned goods. It’s not easy to leave cash in buckets knowing that you have no idea whether the person taking from the bucket has a legitimate need or just wants a new cellphone. It’s not… Read more »
Oh, so since it wasn’t exactly the same PROCEDURE it’s not good enough for you? Whatever, dude. No Christian would be writing an apologetic for some who spreads a false gospel like Rob Bell does because they used white buckets.
BTW, I answered your question. Now, you answer this one. So they did this white bucket thing, which is infinitely superior to anything any other church is doing—so what? Why does that matter? How does that offset the fact that he preaches a false gospel?
Is leaving a bucket of cash around for anyone to use for any purpose whatsoever without any accountability really good stewardship of the resources that God has given us?
Squirrel
Again, you just don’t get it.
I’m asking whether or not your church could implement something like this which is inherent contrary to how they operate currently. This is nothing to do with doctrine. This has everything to do with control.
You can’t separate the two which is why we’re at this impasse.
And no, you haven’t answered the question. You keep dodging which is ironically what you accuse me of doing.
Own your words there, Joe.
Now, squirrel, bill has spoken. Rob Bell gets a free pass as a heretic because bill says this makes him good enough. Since bill has told us that this is the real way to do ministry, we have no choice but to go and do likewise.
(/sarcasm)
Squirrel,
I hope that you find my response appropriate. If you want, I may be able to email you the audio file directly. Please give it a listen and then we can dialogue from there.
Thanks.
I don’t think I’d want my church doing something like that. I suppose I could put a bucket of money at the intersection where the “homeless” guy sits. But that seems really stupid. I suppose my giving him the Burger King #5 instead of cash was a bad idea. Personally, I think giving him food is better stewardship than giving him $6.00 to spend on booze. (Granted, I don’t know for sure he’d spend it on booze, but I didn’t give him the option.) Now, could your church go around handing out food to homeless guys at various intersections, and… Read more »
Actually, let me reply to my own post: It used to be that when people in the church had needs, they could go to the elders (or pastors, whomever is aware of such things) and request aid. It is a sorry state that churches are too strapped to do that anymore because their money is tied up in construction debt, payroll, etc. I’m not at all saying that giving money as needs arise is a bad idea – I am saying that being a good steward demands some sort of accountability. If a church wants to have a “white bucket”… Read more »
Squirrel,
I’ll have to get home to my home pc and I’ll post either a link to the sermon which implemented the white bucket or I’ll upload the sermon audio file for you.
By the way you distilled it, then it’s obviously not.
However, if you phrased it as: Leaving gifts so that others can be blessed and fulfill needs as they arise…
bill,
I believe in the total depravity of man. I’m not going to give my hard-earned money away to just anybody to be used for just anything, trusting in their goodness to only take money for real needs. People don’t have intrinsic goodness. People are not “basically good”.
As my Daddy used to say while I was growing up, “Locks just keep honest folks honest, son. They don’t stop a real thief.” Leaving a bucket of money around, unlocked, is just setting temptation before others. That’s the way I see it.
Squirrel
So you’re not even interested in giving this particular sermon a listen to provide some context?
I’m just trying to provide you with what I have that has so far formed my opinion of this practice. It would seem the best practice to continue this conversation.
Why would ANYONE be interested in a sermon by a man who preaches a false gospel? So what if people left money in a bucket and people took money from the bucket and people were helped. I answered your pendantic question, but you seem to be avoiding mine. Why on earth would it matter if a church did this if that church and its pastor preached a false gospel? What is the gain?
I didn’t realize that you had asked a question.
All I was reading was insults not only to me, but a kindly man of God who helped me through a crisis of belief when I was in college.
There really wouldn’t be a gain there to be honest in the long term. Short term, needs are met.
Then again, if there is NOT a false gospel present, then there is much to gain.
But because Rob Bell presents a false gospel (all Christians recognize that) then he might as well have been playing in traffic. In fact, that would be pretty fun to watch. Like a live action version of Frogger.
My e-mail is at my blog site, bill
Squirrel
Squirrel,
I’ll have that file to you by Wednesday, Tuesday night at the earliest. This is the end of the month at my work so it’s a little hectic.
bill, you might find this helpful, too.
Does The Bible Teach Socialism?
Squirrel
Thanks for that one, Squirrel.
I see you’re a Williams fan too.
Bill, On the White Bucket Project’s Facebook page, I noticed that they use Acts 2 as a justification for their actions. I presume that they are referring to this passage specifically: Acts 2:44-45 “Now all who believed were together, and had all things in common, and sold their possessions and goods, and divided them among all, as anyone had need.” You may find John Gill’s commentary valuable: “as every man had need: the rich sold their estates, and divided them among the poor, or gave them such a portion thereof as their present exigencies required. This was done by Jews,… Read more »
This is very interesting.
Thanks for this, I’ll definitely look into it further.
It seems that you are quoting a section. Do you have a link and/or reference so that I may look at the entire commentary?
Bill,
You can download a .pdf of his commentary on Acts here:
http://grace-ebooks.com/library/index.php?dir=John%20Gill/JG_New%20Testament%20Commentary/
Or you can read it online, but the formatting is terrible:
http://www.freegrace.net/gill/