In typical SBC life, when a church looks for a new pastor you go through the process of establishing a committee, collecting resumes, sorting through the resumes for a handful that have potential, then: ask questions, call references, listen to sermons on CDs or DVDs (or tapes, if we still know what those are), set up meetings, narrow it down to one resume, bring him in “in view of a call,” have a pot luck, Q&A, he preaches, church votes… maybe it’s not all in that order or maybe there’s a piece added or removed but that’s the general gist. (And particularly this is on my mind b/c I’m currently in the process).
Yet, research has shown that the average stay for an SBC pastor is 4 years (this was 9 years ago, I’ve heard people say its closer to 3 but haven’t found the actual stats); while other research shows that the greatest period of a pastor’s ministry comes in years 5-14. Our average misses the beginning of that mark by a full year. And here’s some more depressing stats. Is our process working?
Add to this the personal experiences and stories I’m sure we all have (or know about): where pastors are ran off, they get burnt out, they face conflict, they just don’t fit the vision of the church, some fall into various sins, while others leave because God is calling them to another position that just so happens to have a bigger salary and better benefits package. I know this isn’t every story, but I’d wager we all (or almost all) know someone or some church that fits somewhere in here. Is our process working?
Personally, I don’t like the resume procedure of finding a pastor, I think it’s a weakness that leads to the above and here’s why:
You can’t really get to know a person through a resume and a handful of meetings. Not to mention the fact that some (many?) committees focus on the wrong things off the resume such as education, marital status, and experience (it’s amazing how often churches know from the start that God’s man is not a single dude with no seminary training and no prior pastoral experience. It reminds me of a resume I once saw of a young man who was married but fell into the other two categories. He had on his resume: “I’m just looking for somebody to give me a chance.” It’s sad that we have to think that way).
But think about it: most churches will say, “We’re looking for a man who meets the qualifications of 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1,” and what are those qualities: what’s his character like, if he’s married and a father what is his home life like, and can he teach? None of those things can be produced on a resume. Those are things that take time to learn. Of course, you have references and a sermon or two…but if I’m making a resume I’m going to put references I know will speak well of me and I’m going to send a CD of one of my better sermons not one where I was having a bad day and lost my place ten times. Even if I go and preach live for the committee/church I’m going to try to have the best sermon I can and make sure I deliver it the best way I can.
And even if I am a man (and I hope I am) who tries to be honest, uses references who will speak of my strengths and weaknesses, and preaches for the committee like I typically do elsewhere, the resume process is still just scratching the surface. And I am left with no initial deep connection to that church but must build it over time.
So is there a better way?
I believe the way 1 Timothy 3 begins indicates that the best way to find pastors is to bring them up within the body of the church itself. Focus on discipling people and if any man “aspires to the office of overseer” go from there. If you have someone who is raised up in the church then the church is in a better position to be a judge of the man’s character and home life. The church is able to trust the man more readily because they know him already. And the church is able to discern over a period of time the effectiveness of the man’s teaching. All the things from 1 Timothy and Titus are known (at least as well as we can know them) before the man is ever called/confirmed to that office.
But…sadly it seems that most SBC churches aren’t set up to operate this way. A lot of churches struggle with deep discipleship, and are not equipped to train pastors. We send men who want to be pastors to our seminaries, which is fine, but the typical expectation is not: Go to seminary and come back to us; but: Go to seminary, and we’ll pray for you as you look for a church. How do we change that culture?
Maybe it would help if we had some sort of interim period where a prospective pastor comes in for a year and functions as a pastor but it’s really a period of testing that is either confirmed or denied after the year is up. I still think something like this faces the same problems as above, but just in a different package.
So here’s the food for discussion: What do you think? Does the typical resume process really work? If yes, why, if no then what are your suggestions for changing it (and why/how)?
John Gill held that a man must first be a member of a church before he could be its pastor. I believe he was admitted to membership before his ordination as pastor as well.
You know, that’s interesting… come to think of it a church I have been a part of requires that a man wanting to be a deacon be a member of the church for at least 6 months before he can be considered for that office, even if he has already been a deacon in another Baptist church…
Yet I’ve never seen that requirement for a pastor.
Mike,
We require a man seeking the office of an Elder in our church to have been in membership for no less than “3 FULL YEARS”. It simply takes more than a few months to know if someone is qualified or not… The command to lay hands on no man quickly should not be taken lightly. If that person was coming to us as an Elder from another church we might be willing to shorten that period to 12 months (after having a extensive conversation with the Elders of the church he was coming from), but no less. Even someone who was an Elder in a former church will require some time to establish himself in a new congregation… and if the desire is to serve the congregation and not to rule the congregation, then what is the rush… a man with a servants heart will be willing to wait until the people trust him.
Grace Always,
I like it…
But of course when it comes to the “traditional” SBC church there is the issue that most have a single “senior” pastor, and if their budgets are big enough an associate or two in the youth/music department.
If a pastor leaves, most churches can’t afford to have a long membership time before a person becomes a pastor (that is unless they only accept resumes from within! 🙂 )…
Of course, that leads to another topic: is the way most traditional SBC churches set up adding to the weakness of the way we hire pastors? (Personally, I’d say yes…)
Mike,
Yeah, most traditional churches with the single elder aren’t always afforded that timeframe as we with a plurality of elders would.
I like your idea of a testing period. Most businesses give you a 90-day probationary period and I don’t find this to be a bad idea for the church. I know a guy who almost hired on a youth pastor who passed all the interviews and resume checks and looked ideal and right before the official hire, the pastor found out about some serious moral flaws.
Interesting post. I always thought it was strange how SEC football coaches average about as much time (current coaches average 3-4 years) at an SEC university as a pastor does at an SBC church.
Jimmie
JimmieD,
It is because they are both in the Bible belt and neither of them have class… 🙂 Go Huskers!
I’ve often thought about an intermediary system, in which a third party assesses the churches in need of pastors, assesses the men seeking ministry positions, and then makes recommendations of two or three potential matches to each.
This is a middle-ground approach between the presbyterian system in which heirarchy assigns pastors, and the corporate ‘resume system’ we currently use. Additionally, it would serve to transition from our current system to a scenario in which churches train up their own pastors.
That’s an interesting idea; maybe even better or as a complementary approach wise churches should consider a Third Party to come in for three months to lead a conversation in the church on what their identity is and how they define themselves.
Church tensions and egos and collective character is always shapeshifting, but some help to get the church to take a strong look at itself, peeling back some layers of its facade, could help before they bring the next Preacher in, so they will know more about themselves as they get acquainted with a new leader.
Fox,
” wise churches should consider a Third Party to come in for three months to lead a conversation in the church on what their identity is and how they define themselves.”
A “WISE” Church will follow the Biblical command and appoint Elders to guide them… not a group of strangers.
Grace Always,
I have been in some churches and hear tales of others where the leading elders are so cross bred and intertwined with multigenerational family entanglements they are pretty much immune to the voice of the Holy Spirit.
Kind of in a bad version or allegory of the provocative movie Winter’s Bone about NW Arkansas, though mercifully after great deal of struggling there is a remedy of sorts in the end.
I see your point but still think it might not hurt to consider what folks a little detached from the situation; how they might assess a local church’s Congregational health every five to ten years; might not be a bad idea, and during pulpit transition may be a good time.
Greg,
Good point. In the present situation, though, the typical church does not have elders, and/or still demands a search committee (haphazardly selected) to find the new pastor. Also, even properly functioning elders don’t know every potential candidate well enough. So, in the present situation in which most pastors are not trained from within the church, a good outsider who spends times learning both the church and candidates may be a good way to bridge the gap while churches learn to trust elders to either train pastors or find them.
Blessings,
I like the biblical idea of raising up someone from within the congregation. Do note that the only constant in all of these churches where pastors are shuffled in and out in about 3 years is the congregation.
The current system is absolutely not working in SBC life (for all the reasons you mentioned).
I think your analysis and solution are the ones reached by anyone in a Baptist setting that attempts to even briefly think about this issue Biblically.
Yet I cannot think of a single example where a search committee utilized this kind of approach.
I’m suspicious that this is a product of poor discipleship and a search committiee, not having been properly counseled on this issue, approaches their task like a business would (for lack of a better model).
Thank you for saying what I have long thought on the subject. Bonus: it seems so biblical.
Mike,
Great points. Our church seeks to raise up elders from within, including teaching them to preach. We believe with John Broadus that one learns to preach by preaching, so we let men preach if they have a passion for it and show potential.
Mark,
I was thinking the same thing. The problem is a two-way street. Not only are many pastors lacking fortitude, but many churches are doing nothing more than searching out the preacher who most fits what their itching ears want to hear.
Darby,
I sadly agree with you.
What you don’t think bringing someone in who is disgruntled in their current church is the answer??
As someone who has served on s couple pastoral search commites, I will say I stopped being suprised at the number of pastors that felt the Holy Spirit leading them to leave when their current situation got hot …
Well put, and very needful. I think the problem with many of our churches is due to the autonomy that we have and the strong desire by most churches to remain that way. I am certainly not advocating against autonomy but rather stating that each and every individual church usually thinks they are quite capable of making their own decisions. For this very reason very rarely will churches place their trust in someone who is an outside source as suggested above. On a plus side I have observed a few churches seek out the leadership of those in other churches and ask for a referral of some in their membership.
In reference to your observation concerning the tenure of pastors I feel very strongly that this is in great part a reflection on the pastors themselves. Certainly not all, but a great many. Many pastors come to a church with a “vision” (it usually is very similar to their home church) and then seek to implement said “vision” within a short period of time (2-3 years). Many give little thought to shepherding the sheep other than making sure they walk in a straight line and learn the correct shuffle for whatever style of music the pastor prefers. I say this somewhat tongue-in-cheek because I have done this both as an interim pastor and as a youth pastor, and have seen the results – bad. I have also seen men come into a church and invest themselves in teaching the Word of God and loving their congregation and when year 4 rolls around their focus is not on what they have accomplished but Whom they are serving and the needs of those they are responsible for.
The last church I pastored put together a committee that contacted me. I actually asked them why they were calling me. I wasn’t interested but was advised by friends to continue to talk to them. Then I turned them down later in the process but they kept coming after me and even got the DOM involved in recruiting me. They said they wanted to transition. The problem is most churches don’t know what change really is. They were great people and the committee minus one supported me until the end. But reality is you never know. Changing churches is hard on the pastor’s family more than people will ever know.
Great discussion!
Great insight, and it’s not just SBC. The church I attend is not affiliated with the SBC and we have the same process for hiring a pastor, and it seems, we have similar turnover. In the past 5 years, we have had 3 pastors leave.
I may be opening up a can of worms here, but I would like the pastor hiring process to start focusing on something Daniel said above:
“I think the problem with many of our churches is due to the autonomy that we have and the strong desire by most churches to remain that way.”
In conjunction with what Jared said:
“My brother-in-law is a young exegete matched by few; he’s level-headed, and loves the local church; however, since he has no experience, he is automatically eliminated from over 90% of Southern Baptist Churches looking for pastors.”
In our church, even though the candidate goes through a rather extensive trial of interviews, teaching, preaching, meeting with elders, pastors, and other ministry leaders, ultimately, the congregation can say “sounds like a great fit, but I don’t like his hair” and vote not to call him (this has not happened to us, but you get the point.)
I have always loved the idea of raising up leaders from within, but sadly, in almost every church I know of, one of the requirements is formal seminary training. I’m not saying seminary is unnecessary, but if you have a man who has been functioning as a “youth pastor” in your church for years when the youth pastor position is vacant, should seminary be a requirement in order to hire him? I can absolutely see how it could be a requirement to take classes and get on a track for obtaining a degree, but I have strong convictions that if you know the guy, and know how he teaches, and know that he is solid and orthodox, the requirement to hire him should not be “has an M.Div” but rather, “will work to obtain an M.Div” (or whatever is desired for the position)
Sorry to ramble, but this issue is very close to my heart lately.
Jeff.
I have always loved the idea of raising up leaders from within, but sadly, in almost every church I know of, one of the requirements is formal seminary training.
Of the churches I’ve been in (not as a pastor), the two best pastors (who stood heads and tails above the rest) had no formal seminary training. One went to seminary about halfway through his time. They guy who followed him had a D.Min in counseling yet was fired after a year because he had anger issues, lied, and blabbed to people about others he was counseling.
I have my M.Div from SBTS, so I’m by no means against seminary education, but I think churches over value it… it’s part of the problem: a seminary degree doesn’t mean the person is a good pastor or has good character. I knew quite a few guys at Southern who I would not want as any sort of pastor in my church because of the way they lived, the jokes they made, the attitudes they had, etc. (fortunately, they were not the majority, though).
I’d rather have a pastor who has the upmost character but is ignorant of the finer points of greek than a bad character who has Mounce’s Greek Grammar memorized…
Mike,
While I dont think your case is rare, my story is quite different. The last church I was in had 7 full time pastors- 2 of them had no formal training and they were by far the weakest two. Their lack of theological knowledge was detrimental, one was very insecure because of it, and one was very arrogant because of his “success” despite his lack of training.
Character is a MUSt, but it certainly cannot stop there.
At the same time, one of the best pastors in my area only has a Bachelors in theology(which is all I have, but Im certainly not one of the best pastors in the area!)
What this tells me is that it is more about the man- not just his character, but everything- his enthusiasm for always learning, if he is a gifted leader, his humility, his ability to teach, etc… Education is a MUST, but that certainly shouldnt mean that Seminary is a MUST!
Whatever happened to churches training within the church? Can I pastor not find a few men who are willing to go through Grudems Bible Doctrine? Trellis and the Vine? Spiritual Leadership? etc… I start my first pastorate on Monday and I have already spoken to a few guys willing to do leadership development with me… Right now, admittedly, I am all theory and have never had a chance to put it to practice- pray for me as I try!
Matt,
Great comment. I have met great pastors who have had little theological training. Jared Wilson, whom I consider a friend and amazing Christian thinker, has a B.A. in English. Matt Chandler, a fan favorite, has a B.A. in Biblical Studies and no seminary. On the other hand, I have met professors with PhD’s who can’t grasp Erickson’s Doctrine textbook or counsel a student through fundamental discipleship. Training is very important, but not necessary.
I myself am working towards finishing my B.A. in Biblical Studies and have studied far beyond my work at DBU. I have been told many times that I am too young to speak on Baptist life, conservative issues, or theology because I’m too young or haven’t “lived enough” though I have experienced and studied these things far beyond even some of my 50-something professors with M.A.’s.
I like your idea of training up leaders from within the church. At the church I co-planted this summer, one of my duties along with elder will be “assimilation” pastor for new members and one of my objectives is to train men who can eventually be deacons/elders. I think this is so key to church discipleship.
Brandon, in one sentence you say training is not necessary, but then outline your duties to train others.
Sounds a bit inconsistent to me. I don’t think you can find one example of someone God used that He did not first prepare (train).
Perhaps you might want to clarify and extend your remarks. I would agree if you mean, “A person does not need a formal seminary degree.” Local church training can suffice just as readily.
Yes, I meant seminary/educational institutions.
Education is a MUST, but that certainly shouldnt mean that Seminary is a MUST!
Education is a must…that’s why we pastors, regardless of our “educational” background, need to study the Bible, read books, and keep up with things…
And I loved seminary–it was a great experience to learn and engage with the biblical languages, and forcing me to wrestle with ideas outside of my own little box–to know what I believe and why I believe it.
But I also remember going and reading the ministry referral job-postings board, or state papers, or sbc.net’s job search and how many churches say, “Seminary required,” some even “Ph.D required.” Its as if they believe a certain diploma automatically makes a person better…that’s the sad part…
Whatever happened to churches training within the church?
I know that the SBC isn’t the only denomination to use seminaries, but it probably doesn’t help from our background that we outsource ministry…if we want to be involved in missions, send $$$ to the Cooperative Program…if we want to train pastors send them to seminaries. We are very much a sending denomination and that’s not always a good thing.
Yes, the CP and Seminaries are good tools…but if that’s all we do then we have completely missed the point. We desperately need discipleship…
I always tell people that one doesn’t need a seminary degree to pastor, but does need to know the same things that are taught there. With the internet and Amazon.com, that is more and more a reality.
QUOTE he has no experience, END QUOTE
That should disqualify him according to 1Timothy. He can easily gain experience by finding a church that is looking for an intern.
There is much more to being a pastor than exegesis. Putting a novice in as a senior pastor is not good for the novice or the church.
Also, church planting under the mentorship of an experienced pastor is also an option. My 32 plus years of experience would make me lean toward this option for any minister entering the ministry. Done right, this a a much better road to effective, long-term ministry. If I had it to do over again, this is the road I would take.
I’m not following… you say that a lack of experience should disqualify him according to 1 Tim. I’d agree if he has no experience ever teaching in a church setting, that disqualifies as one must be “able to teach,” but I’m not finding anything else that could fit what you’re talking about…and there’s ways other than pastoring/interning to be able to teach.
If a man has the right character, desire, and gifts there is nothing, scripturally, I know of that disqualifies him from becoming a pastor.
In regard to being a pastor, is he a “novice,” or is he not? It seems simple enough to answer. Timothy clearly has “experience” in mind. Teaching is not the only duty of a pastor.
Perhaps this person has the skills and calling necessary. This is normally identified by having a solid group of elders willing to appoint (or stand behind) this person giving testimony that this person is indeed not a novice.
I respect your right to have an opinion without agreeing that your opinion is right. Experience is absolutely the key to serving as a leader in both the Old Testament (in regard to priest who apprenticed for 5 to 10 years) and in the New Testament.
I know from experience the heartache and trouble that can come from having “zeal without knowledge.” The very fact that the person you mention is having trouble finding a place of service indicates to me he “MIGHT” not be ready. I don’t think you can blame the churches for having an opinion as to whether he is a “novice” or not — that is what they are commanded to do.
In regard to being a pastor, is he a “novice,” or is he not? It seems simple enough to answer. Timothy clearly has “experience” in mind. Teaching is not the only duty of a pastor.
I don’t think Paul has experience in mind. The fact he begins 1 Tim 3 with the words “if any man aspires to the office of overseer” indicates he is talking about men w/o pastoral experience. These are men who are not pastors/elders who desire to be pastors/elders. Then he lays out the qualifications of character, home life, and ability to teach.
Certainly these are things that should be known to the congregation about the man’s life (hence the argument, raising up someone from within because the development of attitude, direction, and gifts can be clearly viewed), but you don’t have to have “pastoral experience” or an intership to meet these qualifications.
I just don’t see scripturally where you’re coming from at all. Pragmatically, maybe, but not scripturally.
Well, if being a novice does not have anything to do with experience, then perhaps you are right to throw that requirement out.
It seems you are suggesting this person has some inalienable right to pastor the church of his choice. I suspect that will not work out well in the short term or long run.
I was simply offering my opinion and best understanding of the matter after 32 years in the ministry. I wish the young man well. If he is truly called, God will find Him a place of service if he is humble and fully surrendered to the Lord.
Again, I was simply offering my opinion in regard to the questions you raised in your post. You certainly have a right to disagree. I’ll leave it at that.
It seems you are suggesting this person has some inalienable right to pastor the church of his choice. I suspect that will not work out well in the short term or long run.
I think there’s been some confusion: I’m not speaking for or against anyone in specific (I just noticed above that you are, so my bad for not following the flow)–I’m talking in generalities… generally speaking, I find no “experience required.”
I don’t think anyone has an “inalienable right” to pastor any church. It requires a call from God (leading to a desire of the heart) and confirmation from the church…that’s what 1 Tim 3 and Titus 1 are all about: what requirements do we put on confirming a man to be pastor who says he has a call? Life experience is a must, but “pastoral experience” isn’t there.
The point of this blog post was to question whether the way we do things now focuses on the right things/qualities in searching for a pastor… (if we put the emphasis on pastoral expereince, educational background, positions held, organizations involved in, etc.–the things that come across on the resumes but aren’t biblical requriements, than getting to know the person and their character–the things that come across from knowing a person, usually, for a longer period of time, and are biblical requirements)… and if that is hurting churches and pastoral ministry…
I have been through, and continue to go through, the process of finding a new place of service. I have dealt with two different committees face to face. I agree the system doesn’t always work. It is my opinion that it can work if those involved are tuned in to what God is doing. The committees I have talked to seemed disjointed, confused. It was like they were shopping for a car instead of looking for God’s will. Many churches just don’t think or pray before putting together a committee. They don’t think or pray before going through resumes. They don’t seek what God’s will is. This doesn’t only hurt the church, but can hurt Godly men involved in the process.
Maybe there needs to be search committee training. Last year I was flown out to meet with a committee for a face to face meeting. I found out that they had flown 5 other people out before me. Any prayer or Godly guidance involved in that process? It was evident there was none. I found out after the fact that they called one guy, he decided not to come, then the 6 personal interviews, called another guy. He decided not to come. Then started again and finally got someone to say yes. What a mess.
They don’t seek what God’s will is.
I’ve had one encounter where “God’s will” was the opposite of everything they didn’t like about the previous pastor. I was only at the church for 8 months (so, I helped bring that average down). When I started they gave me a list of pastoral expectations, some of which were head scratchers in the way they were worded.
When I later became friends with other pastors in the association, we were talking about things and I showed them the list and one who was good friends with the pastor before me said, “You know what this is…they’re describing __________.”
The funny thing is, I must have really left an impression, because most of the people there talked bad about they guy for 7 of my 8 months, but then about 5 months after they ran me off, they hired him back (what’s even more weird to me is that he went!). 🙂
Many associations DO offer training for search committees. Do you think those resources ever get used? No, of course not. 🙂 And I believe this is due to the attitude of the heart of those on the committee. Like you said, they are shopping for a car, not praying for the right pastor.
I was basically, “appointed,” by the pastor who proceded me after he had served for 37 years. He suggested my name, gave me his blessing and the church voted nearly unaniomously to call me.
The best transition in ministry I’ve had in 32 years.
The former pastor is one of my greatest supporters and he is a mentor of mine in the ministry. I could not be more blessed.
It was indeed outside of the normal perameters of how pastors are selected in SBC life.
Put me down as one who feels our typical way of doing this in SBC life just doesn’t work very well as the short tenures attest.
It seems the problem is less with the mechanics (e.g., reviewing resumes, checking references, etc.) of a selection committee than with what happens prior to the election of a selection committee and that which happens after the minister is on the field. A very important point here to consider is that which was made by Fox; that is, consider using external sources to work with church leadership in order to identify aspects of the church that when deeply considered suggest a certain skill set in a prospective minister.
This has been a much welcomed article to me. I am in the process right now looking for an associate pastor position. I’m happy at my church, but it’s only part-time. Throw a full time job, family, and seminary on top of it and it’s become too much. So, I’m moving on hopefully to a simpler job situation.
Other people have already commented on the suggestions made, mostly that it doesn’t solve the problems of hiring a stranger at all- at best it just prolongs the invetible (pastor leaving in 4 years) and at worst it compounds the situation by adding more people into the mix.
Although I favor a plurality of elders that raise up their own pastors, someone already mentioned the “ministerial inbreeding” that goes on with churches that only hire their own. I guarantee you that if most SBC churches started to hire from within, in 20 years we would be suggesting the opposite because if a spiritually dead church hires from within, they’re still going to be spiritually dead.
And that’s my whole point. The process doesn’t matter as much as the spiritual state of the church’s leadership. If the church’s leadership is spiritually healthy, biblically sound, and Holy Spirit led, then they are going to pick a great pastor- either from within or from outside. So, the process, in some ways doesn’t matter as much as some of you are saying it does. After all, didn’t Paul plant several churches and leave them within a few years? And weren’t there some cases where he left them with an outsider to pastor them?
But, I will say one thing about my current search: I will latch on to just about ANYTHING that is familiar and trustworthy. Like the pastor graduating from the same seminary. Or someone I know and trust is a member of the church and can speak accurately of the inner workings of the church. Matching up a strange pastor with a strange congregation is certainly not working.
On a side note, I am getting really tired of people asking me if I’m a Calvinist just because I graduated from SBTS. It was only sporatic when I was looking for a pastor job a few years back, but this time around it has come up in every phone conversation I’ve had with a church (or worse, a DOM). There is no way I can sum up my position on the effects of reformed theology on SBC life and how I will handle it if I’m hired on in the 20 minute phone conversation.
We need more articles like this! It’s encouraging and informative. Especially for us young pastors who keep getting ostracized either because of the above-mentioned reasons or because we had the blessed misfortune of graduating from SBTS. 🙂
Are those going into Southern Baptist seminaries required to have a college eduction first ?
Yes, a college degree is required.
There are some seminaries with Associate’s Degree programs that do not require prior college, but the Master of Divinity programs all do.
Also, there are ‘Diploma’ programs which you take all the same classes (except languages aren’t required, I don’t think), and have all the same requirements as an M.Div., but don’t require an undergrad degree (as giving a grad degree to someone who doesn’t have an undergrad is a great way to lose accreditation, haha).
I agree with so much of this post… Committees look for the opposite gift mix of the previous pastor. They often don’t look deeply enough at candidates. They may touch on competence and character, but rarely consider chemistry, as in the way this pastor will relate to other staff members. The process may take two years to find a pastor who will stay for only five, which seems inefficient at best.
I do like the idea of growing someone from within a church, but I am sure you are familiar with the idea that “a prophet is not without honor “except in his own hometown…” Also, I believe the so-called 90 day probationary period is unnecessary. One’s entire ministry at a Baptist Church is a period of testing, as a minister may be removed at any time. The honeymoon may end, but the probation period remains forever.
You have raised some very good questions here. There are downsides to the “resume” approach. But I have 2 thoughts.
One is that human tendency to see one raised from within the congregation as “our boy” and never to see his him with any prophetic calling. Jesus identified this tendency when he said “a prophet is not without honor, except in his own country.”
I have seen this happen before. The people voted for a young man who had been raised in the church to become their pastor. But they never really let him lead because psychologically, they never could see him as a leader.
Human psychology is interesting like that. We see people as fixed or frozen from a certain period of time. We are not able to see them in their new status. That’s why it’s usually unhealthy for married couples to live with parents. The parents always see their child as a child. That’s why brothers and sisters are not attracted to one another. Psychologists say that being familiar with person during certain formative years as a sibling makes it impossible in healthy people to be sexually attracted to them.
I find that there are usually problems within the congregation’s structure, polity and personality that explain some of the problems with pastor/people fit. There are also problems with the candidates, for sure, that are not unearthed in the process. Usually, the churches are in fear and want to rush, and they may not be willing to ask or may not know how to ask the right questions. The candidates, too, are often anxious to get a job and answer the questions (sometimes even subconsciously) in a way to try and please the questioner, rather than as a revealing process.
We are going through this right now. We want to hire someone to do discipleship, small groups etc. It does not have a preaching component, nor will it ever have a preaching component. But we get tons of resumes from guys who really want to preach, but they sort of suppress that to fit the position. We have to do a lot of probing to get them to reveal their thoughts on this.
So, I don’t see the resume process as fatal. But it has to be worked right by a healthy congregation. Otherwise, it is can be very unhelpful.
Mike
Thanks for questioning “The Religious System” and how it operates.
You ask…
“Hiring Pastors: Is It Working?”
From your stats, your conclusion, and the comments here,
seems most are dissatisfied with the process and /or the results
and admit the system is broken.
Lot’s of ideas here on fixing the process of “Hiring Pastors.” 🙁
Before fixing the process couldn’t we ask the questions this way…
**Today’s** “Pastor/Leader,” is this a “Title” and “Position”
found in the scriptures?
In the Bible, How many people… have the “Title” pastor/leader?
In the Bible, How many people are… referred to as pastor/leader?
In the Bible, How many people are… ordained as a pastor/leader?
In the Bible, How many congregations are… “led” by a pastor?
And every pastor I’ve met also has the “Title” Reverand.
In the Bible, does anyone have the “Title” Reverand?
If this “Title” and “Position,” “Pastor/Leader,” is NOT in the Bible?
Then “Resume’s,” “Search Committes,” finding and
“Hiring Pastors,” would be NOT biblical and NOT nessesary. Yes?
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall **hear MY voice;**
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Fold – One Shepherd – One Voice.
If Not Now, When?
Be blessed and be a blessing.
I’m not exactly sure what you’re driving at…
But when it comes to titles, “pastor” is used in Eph 4:11 along with prophet, apostle, evangelist, and teacher–all of which functioned as titles, and the same word is used (as well as the word for overseeing) in 1 Peter 5:1-4 in describing “elders”. Granted, to be technical, the title of “elder” is used the most, but it is clear from its descriptions that elders are to pastor/shepherd under Jesus who is the Chief Shepherd. We have no exact number because Paul and Peter sometimes used the term broadly but quite a few men are called “elders” in the NT. In modern history, especially as Baptists, we’ve just replaced the old title w/ the term “pastor.” Maybe it’s not as biblically precise as “elder” but I don’t think it’s biblically wrong either to use the terms interchangably.
All the congregations that are described with detail in the NT are led/shepherded/pastored by elders.
And there are referrences in places like 1 Timothy of “laying on of hands” which is where we get the idea of an ordination (though biblically we are not giving details of what all took place with this practice, though it signifies something about the men since Paul warns not to lay on hands to quickly).
Mike
You write…
“I’m not exactly sure what you’re driving at…“
What I’m driving at, and I think you’re agreeing with me, is…
The “Title” and “Position” “Pastor/Leader” is NOT found in scripture.
I think you’re agreeing with me because you write…
“In modern history, especially as Baptists, we’ve just replaced the
old title w/ the term “pastor.” (Replaced? Tradition of men?) 🙁
Do you think that’s a good idea for man to change the scripture?
IMO – That’s why “Hiring Pastors,” doesn’t work. It’s NOT in the Bible.
NO Pastors – in pulpits – preaching – to people – in pews.
NO one is called “Pastor” and NO congregations “Led” by a “Pastor.”
Can you name one congregation “Led” by a “Pastor?” In the Bible…
And didn’t Jesus warn us about “The Traditions of Men” in Mark 7:13.
KJV – Making the word of God of **none effect** through your tradition…
ASV – Making **void** the word of God by your tradition…
NIV – Thus you **nullify** the word of God by your tradition…
And Jesus, in Mat 23:10 KJV, told “His Disciples” Not to be called
Master/Leader for you have “ONE” Master/Leader, even Christ.
King James Version –
Neither be ye called masters:
for “ONE” is your Master, even Christ.
The Interlinear Bible –
Nor be called leaders,
for “ONE” is your leader the Christ.
Phillips Modern English –
you must not let people call you leaders,
you have only “ONE” leader, Christ.
Today’s English Version –
nor should you be called leader.
your “ONE” and only leader is the Messiah.
Jesus told **His disciples** NOT to be called **leaders** and NONE did.
Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ,
Php 1:1 Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ,
Col 4:12 Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ,
Tit 1:1 Paul, a servant of God,
Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God
2Pe 1:1 Simon Peter, a servant
**His Disciples** all called themselves **Servants.**
None called themselves “Leaders.” None? None.
None called themselves “Servant-Leader.” None.
If Jesus instructed **His Disciples** NOT to call themselves “leaders”
and someone calls them self a “leader” or thinks they are a “leader;”
Are they NO?LONGER a “Disciple of Christ?” Oy Vey!!! 😉
Or, are they just a **disobedient** “Disciple of Christ?” 😉
Why isn’t what Jesus said important? 😉
Where does it say, “elder/shepherd/pastor” equals “Leader?” Hmmm?
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall **hear MY voice;**
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Fold – One Shepherd – One Voice.
If Not Now, When?
Jesus loves me and forgives me all my sin.
P.S. How can I receive follow up comments automatically?”
Thanks
I understand you.
Ok, here goes. Wanted to get in on this one.
My first pastorate, at age 19, I was basically appointed by my pastor, who had pastored this other church years before and still kept in touch. They did what he said. I WAS a novice. Not just chronologically, but spiritually and practically. I almost died. I almost lost my wife, preganant with our first of four kids. It was a horrible experience. Looking back, I learned a TON, though. They heard me, sent me to the basement, voted and I moved in. Just like that.
After this experience, I walked away for three months. No church, no community, no “nothing”. I later woke up from that and crept back in. My next place of service was as a layman, then a youth pastor, then I helped to plant a church where I served as pastor for 5 years. I was heavily mentored by local pastors. This is where my real training came. From these guys.
I am now pastor in a church in the community in which I lived as a boy. I was a member of that church for 2 years before accepting the role as interim, and eventually as pastor. It seems a good way to go about it. Mind you, there have been people leave the church because it was “weird with me as their pastor.” (we had known each other since grade school.) On the other hand, my family was tested and proven. My teaching was heard and understood. I LOVE the idea of raising leadership up from within. I find it overtly Biblical. It satisfies the experience debate, it satifies the Biblical Qualifications … It is just the way to go.
After all, pastors are elders. Paul told Timothy to go, appoint elders in every place. (paraphrase). Then, based upon gifting, the teachers, pastors, servers, deacons, givers, etc. etc. begin to emerge. Good plan. Solid Biblical foundation. Let’ do it.
This is indeed the best way. The current system works like a mail-order bride results in a good marriage. We have had the practice of raising up ministers in our church in recent years. Our current pastor came as a youth minister having been in Campus Crusade. When the pastor at the time retired, he started filling in while the search committee went looking for a new pastor. After a few months, they looked at Skip and noted what a great job he was doing filling in. So they offered him the pastorate and started looking instead for a youth minister. That was 800 people and 20+ years ago. He’s raised the bar on teaching and evangelism in our church and we have grown steadily in faith and in numbers.
Our minister of music was the same way. He had been singing professionally and stepped down to raise his family becoming a local custom cabinet maker. (He made our pulpit during this time.) When the minister of music left, he filled in while the search committee looked for a replacement. They saw what a great job he was doing and put him on the staff. Our current youth pastor, minister of middle school and minister of preschool all grew up in the church. Our minister of education came as a youth minister and has moved up and earned his doctorate with us. He may very well be our next pastor.
So, the pattern of disconnectedness between a pastor’s spiritual history and the church he pastors is ill. Given that the SBC is congregational, the proper way to change anything is by general teaching. Perhaps seminary professors can put it into the minds of prospective ministers to create a pattern in the churches they pastor of raising up men from the church to be future ministers and possibly pastors that there will be a local group to select from.
All the congregations that are described with detail in the NT are led/shepherded/pastored by elders.”
Yes, elderS, plural. I think the point Amos Love is making is that the modern senior-pastor scenario that we consider normal isn’t found in the New Testament AT ALL. On the other hand, the multiple-elder approach to leadership that was the norm in the New Testament is not found in our modern churches AT ALL (for all intents and purposes). Even if we were to agree that the New Testament examples were DEscriptive rather than PREscriptive (and I’m not sure we have any Biblical proof of that), don’t you think it’s rather odd that we have abandoned the multiple-elder model COMPLETELY?
And we wonder why OUR system is broken…
Jay,
Amen to the infinite degree.
I agree, except that I find multiple elder rule in several places. Not the puniest of which is The Village Church in Flowermound and Bethlehem (John Piper). It is out there and works great. I also don’t see any problem Biblically with there being a “lead” elder as it were … true to definition, an overseer as Timothy seemed to be as he had authority to appoint the other elders.
The problem is that the Senior Pastor gig has become a career ladder … not a shepherding service ministry. If we pastors just stopped drawing salaries and served with other jobs, then what would happen?
Anarchy .. AAAHHHGGGGG, mountains would crumble …. I digress.
I will continue to serve when our church stops paying me.
Matt Parker,
Good word. 1 Timothy 5:17 even says the preaching elder is “worthy of double honor.”
Jay
“the modern senior-pastor scenario that we consider normal isn’t found in the New Testament AT ALL.”
Amen.
“the multiple-elder approach to leadership that was the norm in the New Testament is not found in our modern churches AT ALL”
Amen.
“don’t you think it’s rather odd that we have abandoned the multiple-elder model COMPLETELY?”
Amen.
And how many elders today even qualify as an elder?
And their kids? Ouch! That’s some tough qualifications given.
The Bible talks about bishops, and elders.
And qualifications for bishops and elders.
Can you have one without the other?
**blameless — unrebukeable, without fault.
husband of one wife — married, male.
rules well his own house — have a family, children.
not greedy of filthy lucre — Not greedy for money.
vigilant — no excessive wine, calm in spirit.
sober — of a sound mind, self controlled.
of good behavior — modest, unassuming, reserved.
no striker — not quarrelsome, contentious.
not a brawler — abstaining from fighting.
not self willed — not self pleasing, not arrogant.
not soon angry — not prone to anger.
temperate — having power over, restraining.
**holy — undefiled by sin, free from wickedness.
**just — righteous, virtuous, innocent, faultless.
“having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly”
faithful — believing, one who trusts in God’s promises.
not accused of riot — Strongs – asotia — unsavedness.
…an abandoned dissolute life, lost to principle.
unruly — disobedient.
if someone thinks they qualify?
Is that pride and thus NOT without fault?
The Bible talks about elders and qualifications for elders.
Can you have one with out the other?
I just can’t find “one” person who can live up to
“Blameless”- “Holy” – “Just.”
Can you?
Interesting conversation: I need help. Please provide any information that would help me in determing church should expect from a pastor who has been serving in a position for 8 years.
This is a small church, avg 70 in SS and 105 in Worship, with a budget of $134,000 and we are falling short by about $20,000.
Just tell my if you were the pastor, what would you consider your duties to be. We have a part-time youth Minister and a part time female choir director.
No outreach program, just broadcast service over local radio.
Duties are not related to salary amount. I am a bi-vocational pastor and have served to everything from nothing to a decent living. I would serve for nothing. Duties are outlined in Scripture … teaching, shepherding … visiting, hospitals, counseling, oversight, scheduling … but alot of the administrative stuff should go to one of the other leaders who is gifted for it.
Your duties are to shepherd God’s people and seek the community. You should be leading the church towards more culturally-engaging worship and evangelism, however you think best fits your context.
If you’re in charge of finances at any level, cut back spending wherever possible, even if it’s what you pay the youth guy. Hope that the Gospel and the church’s mission are enough for him to stay. Anyone, churches included, makes bad decisions when in debt. If you have to take a pay cut as pastor and work at Wal-Mart, do so.
“OORAH”, said the bi vocational pastor!
Well said, Matt. haha
With no offense intended, I would hope that no pastor is in charge of finances at any level.
I have served churches ranging from 60 in attendance to over 200, with me as the sole paid staff member to being senior pastor with several staff, and have done so over a period of going on 24 years. From out of this experience–which I do not consider either extensive or exhaustive–I will share my thoughts.
First, each and every church has its own personality and level of maturity, just as do individuals. You will need to find a way to access what yours are; perhaps your DOM can help, or if not, someone at your state convention office. Each and every church has its own unique style, passion, and opportunities. Yours–your field and opportunities–may be vastly different from other churches that carry the label “Southern Baptist” (or whatever), even if they are located very close to you. You need, in other words, some way to gauge what community needs you have around you. Both of these items, as well as needs within the congregation, contribute to the “profile” of the pastor you are seeking. If you are looking for a fund-raising-pastor to supply a budget deficit, be honest about that–but at the same time, be open to the possibility that your deficit may be caused by something outside the control of either pastor or congregation , such that meeting a certain budget may be an unrealistic expectation (I once served a church in a county that, 30 years earlier had a population of 32,000 people and some 50 Baptist churches, plus Methodist, Presbyterian, and numerous others, most all within 2 or 3 miles of each other, all of which were planted/grew by following the early 20th Century “mom-and-pop store” style, when most people walked to church or rode a horse and wagon; when I went there, the county population was 16,000, the number of churches was unchanged, the local hospital had closed, the railroad tracks had been taken up, and most young people left as soon as they finished high school; the local joke was that the county schools taught the four “R’s,” “readin’, ritin’, and the road to Richmond.” Churches there either failed to meet budget, or lowered their expectations for what their budget should be). But even then, there are pastors whose spiritual gifts are for such churches and communities. Honesty is necessary to learn that though (on both parts of church and prospective pastor).
Another joke–altogether too true often–is that the average church wants a pastor who is 30 years old with 40 years of experience, a seminary education which will affirm all the prejudices and opinions of the congregation (or at least of the leaders and shakers of the church), who can get by with whatever the church pays, and has a wife who can teach Sunday School, the piano, and serve as WMU president, manage two and a half kids gracefully, and not even think about working outside the home, and none of them mind living in the fishbowl of a parsonage. Instead, allow the pastor to have a life outside the church, and give him and his family (if he has one) time for it; and allow him to be wrong occasionally, without making him feel that he will loose his job if he says or does anything wrong.
In all this, I haven’t said anything about specific duties. Look at Ephesians 4, especially 11-13 & following, and recognize (1) that each pastor has this mandate, but each one can carry it through differrently, depending on his gifts and talents–your duty will be to access whether his gifts ,talents, and way of doing that can mesh with your church’s–and (2) recognize the possibility that what many churches, your church, may consider a pastor’s duty may not be Biblical at all–is him being responsible for the bulletin Biblical? Some churches expect it. How about music? Again some churches expect it, and some pastors can handle it well; I am not musical at all, and always told churches that, but one or two still expected me to lead the music. Finally, recognize that the relationship between pastor and congregation is just that–A RELATIONSHIP. And relationships take time to develop, they take work from both ends, and they develop problems over time. In churches, that is typically when a pastor leaves, whether through being fired or pressured or just made to feel “it’s time to leave.” Could it be that is part of why the divorce rate in our churches is as high as in the secular world? That couples see pastors and churches end their relationship when the relationship gets difficult, so if the pastor/church does not try to work it out, why should the couple?
To recap, (1) make all your expectations known, (2) be willing to accept a less than “perfect” match, (3) be as willing to admit the congregation may be wrong as that the pastor may be, and (4) never give up trying to make the relationship work, no matter how difficult it may be.
Sorry to have been so wordy, but I don’t think I have ever had the opportunity to share my feelings on such a subject.
John
As to your original premise: The actual data collected in 2008 in Alabama shows the average tenure for an Alabama Baptist pastor is OVER SEVEN YEARS. We are compiling new data as I type!
Have link to show us this?
Any idea how this compares to other states? My guess is, if 7 years is right in Bama, that is longer than most state averages.
http://www.alsbom.org/lss
I have been reading the comments off-and-on since it was posted, but have not yet commented. I find, finally, that I must do so.
If the average tenure in a Southern Baptist church is now 7 years, more or less, we must be doing something right. When I was in seminary, in the mid-80s, I was told that the average was more like 2 years. Of course, it does vary from state to state, and even association to association. Here in Maryland, the average is longer, or so it seems to me. At the first church I served (1986), the average tenure, since 1960 when they called their own pastor (rather than be part of a multi-church field), the average tenure was 18 months. MONTHS.
Still, much of the discussion, IMHO, misses the mark. Pastor/senior pastor, elders/ruling elders/lead elder, pulpit committies, raising up pastors from within the congregation, from without, seminary trained, high school grad only, family chapel church, collective alliance church, corporate model church, large membership church, drill seargent pastor, catalyst pastor, and more–each and every one of those CAN work–if the church/congregation is spiritually healthy and the pastor (by whatever title) is spiritually and emotionally mature. There are advantages and disadvantages to each. And by the same token, the liklihood of failure in each and every one of these grows as dysfunction of the church and dysfunction/lack of maturity on the part of the pastor grows.
Among churches and potential pastors tilting toward the dysfunctional side, our autonomy works against us. Some churches are so anxious to rid themselves of a pastor, they will withhold crucial information from piulpit committees, as will associations and directors of mission. I know of one church that found out the man they called had actually been fired a before he came to them. His former church so wanted him removed from the community that when the Pulpit Committee came, they let him preach as though nothing had happened; and everybody pretended things were great, even the Associational DOM. One church I served withheld the fact that during my predecessor’s tenure, a child had been killed at VBS and the church was being sued, and the DOM–though a great guy I came to love and respect–failed to mention it too.
What churches and candidates (at least some) need is an infusion of honesty and gumption, and unfortunantly, neither can be legislated or mandated. If there was a way for it to be uniform (and I have no idea what could cause that), perhaps a system of matching real needs and gifts could help; but for that to work, we would need contracts guaranteeing a certain length of tenure to make it past the “he’s not what I want” or “he’s not preaching what I want to hear,” i.e., tickling the ears, etc. And you show me a Southern Baptist church willing to do that and I’ll. . . I’ll. . . I’ll send them my resume!
John
On Seminary Training
I am a graduate of a Baptist Bible College with a Major in Biblical Studies and Theology. I was mentored for years by my pastor who was also one of my professors. I have no problems grasping theological concepts or relating them to current situations in the local church. However, in spite of all of this many churches will not consider my resume because it doesn’t have a seminary degree. I am not complaining, rather, I’m making an observation.
When dealing with search committee’s who question my education, or lack thereof, I explain to them how the Seminary system is set up. That it is for people who have an undergrad in biology or business to receive their formal religious training.
However, for most of us who have an good undergrad in Bible it’s very repetitive, even though it is a more advanced degree. At this point in the conversation you can tell that the search committee I’m talking to about this has no idea about what a seminary degree is.
All they know is that SEMINARY=RELIGIOUS TRAINING and they want their pastor to be trained. I can’t say I blame them! They are totally clueless as to how the religious education system works and because of that there is a false standard put on a lot of already trained, qualified men.
Ultimately, because of a mis-understood standard for formal religious training most of us will have to pursue a seminary degree in order to have doors opened to us for ministry opportunities.
******PLEASE READ THIS QUESTION**********
I believe our pastors should be formally trained as well as trained in the church. Let me post this question though. Why should we make our men, who are called of God to preach and minister submit themselves to either, get an undergrad degree that is not relevant to them in the ministry before they get their formal religious training? On the other hand, if they go to Bible College why do we make the submit themselves to almost 90 more hours of religious training that is somewhat repetitive. This seems like a huge misappropriation of time and money. Can we not figure out a better way to resolve this issue as Southern Baptists?
Fascinating discussion..