In typical SBC life, when a church looks for a new pastor you go through the process of establishing a committee, collecting resumes, sorting through the resumes for a handful that have potential, then: ask questions, call references, listen to sermons on CDs or DVDs (or tapes, if we still know what those are), set up meetings, narrow it down to one resume, bring him in “in view of a call,” have a pot luck, Q&A, he preaches, church votes… maybe it’s not all in that order or maybe there’s a piece added or removed but that’s the general gist. (And particularly this is on my mind b/c I’m currently in the process).
Yet, research has shown that the average stay for an SBC pastor is 4 years (this was 9 years ago, I’ve heard people say its closer to 3 but haven’t found the actual stats); while other research shows that the greatest period of a pastor’s ministry comes in years 5-14. Our average misses the beginning of that mark by a full year. And here’s some more depressing stats. Is our process working?
Add to this the personal experiences and stories I’m sure we all have (or know about): where pastors are ran off, they get burnt out, they face conflict, they just don’t fit the vision of the church, some fall into various sins, while others leave because God is calling them to another position that just so happens to have a bigger salary and better benefits package. I know this isn’t every story, but I’d wager we all (or almost all) know someone or some church that fits somewhere in here. Is our process working?
Personally, I don’t like the resume procedure of finding a pastor, I think it’s a weakness that leads to the above and here’s why:
You can’t really get to know a person through a resume and a handful of meetings. Not to mention the fact that some (many?) committees focus on the wrong things off the resume such as education, marital status, and experience (it’s amazing how often churches know from the start that God’s man is not a single dude with no seminary training and no prior pastoral experience. It reminds me of a resume I once saw of a young man who was married but fell into the other two categories. He had on his resume: “I’m just looking for somebody to give me a chance.” It’s sad that we have to think that way).
But think about it: most churches will say, “We’re looking for a man who meets the qualifications of 1 Timothy 3 and Titus 1,” and what are those qualities: what’s his character like, if he’s married and a father what is his home life like, and can he teach? None of those things can be produced on a resume. Those are things that take time to learn. Of course, you have references and a sermon or two…but if I’m making a resume I’m going to put references I know will speak well of me and I’m going to send a CD of one of my better sermons not one where I was having a bad day and lost my place ten times. Even if I go and preach live for the committee/church I’m going to try to have the best sermon I can and make sure I deliver it the best way I can.
And even if I am a man (and I hope I am) who tries to be honest, uses references who will speak of my strengths and weaknesses, and preaches for the committee like I typically do elsewhere, the resume process is still just scratching the surface. And I am left with no initial deep connection to that church but must build it over time.
So is there a better way?
I believe the way 1 Timothy 3 begins indicates that the best way to find pastors is to bring them up within the body of the church itself. Focus on discipling people and if any man “aspires to the office of overseer” go from there. If you have someone who is raised up in the church then the church is in a better position to be a judge of the man’s character and home life. The church is able to trust the man more readily because they know him already. And the church is able to discern over a period of time the effectiveness of the man’s teaching. All the things from 1 Timothy and Titus are known (at least as well as we can know them) before the man is ever called/confirmed to that office.
But…sadly it seems that most SBC churches aren’t set up to operate this way. A lot of churches struggle with deep discipleship, and are not equipped to train pastors. We send men who want to be pastors to our seminaries, which is fine, but the typical expectation is not: Go to seminary and come back to us; but: Go to seminary, and we’ll pray for you as you look for a church. How do we change that culture?
Maybe it would help if we had some sort of interim period where a prospective pastor comes in for a year and functions as a pastor but it’s really a period of testing that is either confirmed or denied after the year is up. I still think something like this faces the same problems as above, but just in a different package.
So here’s the food for discussion: What do you think? Does the typical resume process really work? If yes, why, if no then what are your suggestions for changing it (and why/how)?
John Gill held that a man must first be a member of a church before he could be its pastor. I believe he was admitted to membership before his ordination as pastor as well.
You know, that’s interesting… come to think of it a church I have been a part of requires that a man wanting to be a deacon be a member of the church for at least 6 months before he can be considered for that office, even if he has already been a deacon in another Baptist church…
Yet I’ve never seen that requirement for a pastor.
Mike, We require a man seeking the office of an Elder in our church to have been in membership for no less than “3 FULL YEARS”. It simply takes more than a few months to know if someone is qualified or not… The command to lay hands on no man quickly should not be taken lightly. If that person was coming to us as an Elder from another church we might be willing to shorten that period to 12 months (after having a extensive conversation with the Elders of the church he was coming from), but no less. Even someone… Read more »
I like it… But of course when it comes to the “traditional” SBC church there is the issue that most have a single “senior” pastor, and if their budgets are big enough an associate or two in the youth/music department. If a pastor leaves, most churches can’t afford to have a long membership time before a person becomes a pastor (that is unless they only accept resumes from within! 🙂 )… Of course, that leads to another topic: is the way most traditional SBC churches set up adding to the weakness of the way we hire pastors? (Personally, I’d say… Read more »
Mike,
Yeah, most traditional churches with the single elder aren’t always afforded that timeframe as we with a plurality of elders would.
I like your idea of a testing period. Most businesses give you a 90-day probationary period and I don’t find this to be a bad idea for the church. I know a guy who almost hired on a youth pastor who passed all the interviews and resume checks and looked ideal and right before the official hire, the pastor found out about some serious moral flaws.
Interesting post. I always thought it was strange how SEC football coaches average about as much time (current coaches average 3-4 years) at an SEC university as a pastor does at an SBC church.
Jimmie
JimmieD,
It is because they are both in the Bible belt and neither of them have class… 🙂 Go Huskers!
I’ve often thought about an intermediary system, in which a third party assesses the churches in need of pastors, assesses the men seeking ministry positions, and then makes recommendations of two or three potential matches to each.
This is a middle-ground approach between the presbyterian system in which heirarchy assigns pastors, and the corporate ‘resume system’ we currently use. Additionally, it would serve to transition from our current system to a scenario in which churches train up their own pastors.
That’s an interesting idea; maybe even better or as a complementary approach wise churches should consider a Third Party to come in for three months to lead a conversation in the church on what their identity is and how they define themselves.
Church tensions and egos and collective character is always shapeshifting, but some help to get the church to take a strong look at itself, peeling back some layers of its facade, could help before they bring the next Preacher in, so they will know more about themselves as they get acquainted with a new leader.
Fox,
” wise churches should consider a Third Party to come in for three months to lead a conversation in the church on what their identity is and how they define themselves.”
A “WISE” Church will follow the Biblical command and appoint Elders to guide them… not a group of strangers.
Grace Always,
I have been in some churches and hear tales of others where the leading elders are so cross bred and intertwined with multigenerational family entanglements they are pretty much immune to the voice of the Holy Spirit. Kind of in a bad version or allegory of the provocative movie Winter’s Bone about NW Arkansas, though mercifully after great deal of struggling there is a remedy of sorts in the end. I see your point but still think it might not hurt to consider what folks a little detached from the situation; how they might assess a local church’s Congregational health… Read more »
Greg,
Good point. In the present situation, though, the typical church does not have elders, and/or still demands a search committee (haphazardly selected) to find the new pastor. Also, even properly functioning elders don’t know every potential candidate well enough. So, in the present situation in which most pastors are not trained from within the church, a good outsider who spends times learning both the church and candidates may be a good way to bridge the gap while churches learn to trust elders to either train pastors or find them.
Blessings,
I like the biblical idea of raising up someone from within the congregation. Do note that the only constant in all of these churches where pastors are shuffled in and out in about 3 years is the congregation.
The current system is absolutely not working in SBC life (for all the reasons you mentioned).
I think your analysis and solution are the ones reached by anyone in a Baptist setting that attempts to even briefly think about this issue Biblically.
Yet I cannot think of a single example where a search committee utilized this kind of approach.
I’m suspicious that this is a product of poor discipleship and a search committiee, not having been properly counseled on this issue, approaches their task like a business would (for lack of a better model).
Thank you for saying what I have long thought on the subject. Bonus: it seems so biblical.
Mike,
Great points. Our church seeks to raise up elders from within, including teaching them to preach. We believe with John Broadus that one learns to preach by preaching, so we let men preach if they have a passion for it and show potential.
Mark,
I was thinking the same thing. The problem is a two-way street. Not only are many pastors lacking fortitude, but many churches are doing nothing more than searching out the preacher who most fits what their itching ears want to hear.
Darby,
I sadly agree with you.
What you don’t think bringing someone in who is disgruntled in their current church is the answer??
As someone who has served on s couple pastoral search commites, I will say I stopped being suprised at the number of pastors that felt the Holy Spirit leading them to leave when their current situation got hot …
Well put, and very needful. I think the problem with many of our churches is due to the autonomy that we have and the strong desire by most churches to remain that way. I am certainly not advocating against autonomy but rather stating that each and every individual church usually thinks they are quite capable of making their own decisions. For this very reason very rarely will churches place their trust in someone who is an outside source as suggested above. On a plus side I have observed a few churches seek out the leadership of those in other churches… Read more »
The last church I pastored put together a committee that contacted me. I actually asked them why they were calling me. I wasn’t interested but was advised by friends to continue to talk to them. Then I turned them down later in the process but they kept coming after me and even got the DOM involved in recruiting me. They said they wanted to transition. The problem is most churches don’t know what change really is. They were great people and the committee minus one supported me until the end. But reality is you never know. Changing churches is hard… Read more »
Great insight, and it’s not just SBC. The church I attend is not affiliated with the SBC and we have the same process for hiring a pastor, and it seems, we have similar turnover. In the past 5 years, we have had 3 pastors leave. I may be opening up a can of worms here, but I would like the pastor hiring process to start focusing on something Daniel said above: “I think the problem with many of our churches is due to the autonomy that we have and the strong desire by most churches to remain that way.” In… Read more »
I have always loved the idea of raising up leaders from within, but sadly, in almost every church I know of, one of the requirements is formal seminary training. Of the churches I’ve been in (not as a pastor), the two best pastors (who stood heads and tails above the rest) had no formal seminary training. One went to seminary about halfway through his time. They guy who followed him had a D.Min in counseling yet was fired after a year because he had anger issues, lied, and blabbed to people about others he was counseling. I have my M.Div… Read more »
Mike, While I dont think your case is rare, my story is quite different. The last church I was in had 7 full time pastors- 2 of them had no formal training and they were by far the weakest two. Their lack of theological knowledge was detrimental, one was very insecure because of it, and one was very arrogant because of his “success” despite his lack of training. Character is a MUSt, but it certainly cannot stop there. At the same time, one of the best pastors in my area only has a Bachelors in theology(which is all I have,… Read more »
Matt, Great comment. I have met great pastors who have had little theological training. Jared Wilson, whom I consider a friend and amazing Christian thinker, has a B.A. in English. Matt Chandler, a fan favorite, has a B.A. in Biblical Studies and no seminary. On the other hand, I have met professors with PhD’s who can’t grasp Erickson’s Doctrine textbook or counsel a student through fundamental discipleship. Training is very important, but not necessary. I myself am working towards finishing my B.A. in Biblical Studies and have studied far beyond my work at DBU. I have been told many times… Read more »
Brandon, in one sentence you say training is not necessary, but then outline your duties to train others.
Sounds a bit inconsistent to me. I don’t think you can find one example of someone God used that He did not first prepare (train).
Perhaps you might want to clarify and extend your remarks. I would agree if you mean, “A person does not need a formal seminary degree.” Local church training can suffice just as readily.
Yes, I meant seminary/educational institutions.
Education is a MUST, but that certainly shouldnt mean that Seminary is a MUST! Education is a must…that’s why we pastors, regardless of our “educational” background, need to study the Bible, read books, and keep up with things… And I loved seminary–it was a great experience to learn and engage with the biblical languages, and forcing me to wrestle with ideas outside of my own little box–to know what I believe and why I believe it. But I also remember going and reading the ministry referral job-postings board, or state papers, or sbc.net’s job search and how many churches say,… Read more »
I always tell people that one doesn’t need a seminary degree to pastor, but does need to know the same things that are taught there. With the internet and Amazon.com, that is more and more a reality.
QUOTE he has no experience, END QUOTE That should disqualify him according to 1Timothy. He can easily gain experience by finding a church that is looking for an intern. There is much more to being a pastor than exegesis. Putting a novice in as a senior pastor is not good for the novice or the church. Also, church planting under the mentorship of an experienced pastor is also an option. My 32 plus years of experience would make me lean toward this option for any minister entering the ministry. Done right, this a a much better road to effective, long-term… Read more »
I’m not following… you say that a lack of experience should disqualify him according to 1 Tim. I’d agree if he has no experience ever teaching in a church setting, that disqualifies as one must be “able to teach,” but I’m not finding anything else that could fit what you’re talking about…and there’s ways other than pastoring/interning to be able to teach.
If a man has the right character, desire, and gifts there is nothing, scripturally, I know of that disqualifies him from becoming a pastor.
In regard to being a pastor, is he a “novice,” or is he not? It seems simple enough to answer. Timothy clearly has “experience” in mind. Teaching is not the only duty of a pastor. Perhaps this person has the skills and calling necessary. This is normally identified by having a solid group of elders willing to appoint (or stand behind) this person giving testimony that this person is indeed not a novice. I respect your right to have an opinion without agreeing that your opinion is right. Experience is absolutely the key to serving as a leader in both… Read more »
In regard to being a pastor, is he a “novice,” or is he not? It seems simple enough to answer. Timothy clearly has “experience” in mind. Teaching is not the only duty of a pastor. I don’t think Paul has experience in mind. The fact he begins 1 Tim 3 with the words “if any man aspires to the office of overseer” indicates he is talking about men w/o pastoral experience. These are men who are not pastors/elders who desire to be pastors/elders. Then he lays out the qualifications of character, home life, and ability to teach. Certainly these are… Read more »
Well, if being a novice does not have anything to do with experience, then perhaps you are right to throw that requirement out. It seems you are suggesting this person has some inalienable right to pastor the church of his choice. I suspect that will not work out well in the short term or long run. I was simply offering my opinion and best understanding of the matter after 32 years in the ministry. I wish the young man well. If he is truly called, God will find Him a place of service if he is humble and fully surrendered… Read more »
It seems you are suggesting this person has some inalienable right to pastor the church of his choice. I suspect that will not work out well in the short term or long run. I think there’s been some confusion: I’m not speaking for or against anyone in specific (I just noticed above that you are, so my bad for not following the flow)–I’m talking in generalities… generally speaking, I find no “experience required.” I don’t think anyone has an “inalienable right” to pastor any church. It requires a call from God (leading to a desire of the heart) and confirmation… Read more »
I have been through, and continue to go through, the process of finding a new place of service. I have dealt with two different committees face to face. I agree the system doesn’t always work. It is my opinion that it can work if those involved are tuned in to what God is doing. The committees I have talked to seemed disjointed, confused. It was like they were shopping for a car instead of looking for God’s will. Many churches just don’t think or pray before putting together a committee. They don’t think or pray before going through resumes. They… Read more »
They don’t seek what God’s will is. I’ve had one encounter where “God’s will” was the opposite of everything they didn’t like about the previous pastor. I was only at the church for 8 months (so, I helped bring that average down). When I started they gave me a list of pastoral expectations, some of which were head scratchers in the way they were worded. When I later became friends with other pastors in the association, we were talking about things and I showed them the list and one who was good friends with the pastor before me said, “You… Read more »
Many associations DO offer training for search committees. Do you think those resources ever get used? No, of course not. 🙂 And I believe this is due to the attitude of the heart of those on the committee. Like you said, they are shopping for a car, not praying for the right pastor.
I was basically, “appointed,” by the pastor who proceded me after he had served for 37 years. He suggested my name, gave me his blessing and the church voted nearly unaniomously to call me. The best transition in ministry I’ve had in 32 years. The former pastor is one of my greatest supporters and he is a mentor of mine in the ministry. I could not be more blessed. It was indeed outside of the normal perameters of how pastors are selected in SBC life. Put me down as one who feels our typical way of doing this in SBC… Read more »
It seems the problem is less with the mechanics (e.g., reviewing resumes, checking references, etc.) of a selection committee than with what happens prior to the election of a selection committee and that which happens after the minister is on the field. A very important point here to consider is that which was made by Fox; that is, consider using external sources to work with church leadership in order to identify aspects of the church that when deeply considered suggest a certain skill set in a prospective minister.
This has been a much welcomed article to me. I am in the process right now looking for an associate pastor position. I’m happy at my church, but it’s only part-time. Throw a full time job, family, and seminary on top of it and it’s become too much. So, I’m moving on hopefully to a simpler job situation. Other people have already commented on the suggestions made, mostly that it doesn’t solve the problems of hiring a stranger at all- at best it just prolongs the invetible (pastor leaving in 4 years) and at worst it compounds the situation by… Read more »
Are those going into Southern Baptist seminaries required to have a college eduction first ?
Yes, a college degree is required.
There are some seminaries with Associate’s Degree programs that do not require prior college, but the Master of Divinity programs all do.
Also, there are ‘Diploma’ programs which you take all the same classes (except languages aren’t required, I don’t think), and have all the same requirements as an M.Div., but don’t require an undergrad degree (as giving a grad degree to someone who doesn’t have an undergrad is a great way to lose accreditation, haha).
I agree with so much of this post… Committees look for the opposite gift mix of the previous pastor. They often don’t look deeply enough at candidates. They may touch on competence and character, but rarely consider chemistry, as in the way this pastor will relate to other staff members. The process may take two years to find a pastor who will stay for only five, which seems inefficient at best. I do like the idea of growing someone from within a church, but I am sure you are familiar with the idea that “a prophet is not without honor… Read more »
You have raised some very good questions here. There are downsides to the “resume” approach. But I have 2 thoughts. One is that human tendency to see one raised from within the congregation as “our boy” and never to see his him with any prophetic calling. Jesus identified this tendency when he said “a prophet is not without honor, except in his own country.” I have seen this happen before. The people voted for a young man who had been raised in the church to become their pastor. But they never really let him lead because psychologically, they never could… Read more »
Mike Thanks for questioning “The Religious System” and how it operates. You ask… “Hiring Pastors: Is It Working?” From your stats, your conclusion, and the comments here, seems most are dissatisfied with the process and /or the results and admit the system is broken. Lot’s of ideas here on fixing the process of “Hiring Pastors.” 🙁 Before fixing the process couldn’t we ask the questions this way… **Today’s** “Pastor/Leader,” is this a “Title” and “Position” found in the scriptures? In the Bible, How many people… have the “Title” pastor/leader? In the Bible, How many people are… referred to as pastor/leader?… Read more »
I’m not exactly sure what you’re driving at… But when it comes to titles, “pastor” is used in Eph 4:11 along with prophet, apostle, evangelist, and teacher–all of which functioned as titles, and the same word is used (as well as the word for overseeing) in 1 Peter 5:1-4 in describing “elders”. Granted, to be technical, the title of “elder” is used the most, but it is clear from its descriptions that elders are to pastor/shepherd under Jesus who is the Chief Shepherd. We have no exact number because Paul and Peter sometimes used the term broadly but quite a… Read more »
Mike You write… “I’m not exactly sure what you’re driving at…“ What I’m driving at, and I think you’re agreeing with me, is… The “Title” and “Position” “Pastor/Leader” is NOT found in scripture. I think you’re agreeing with me because you write… “In modern history, especially as Baptists, we’ve just replaced the old title w/ the term “pastor.” (Replaced? Tradition of men?) 🙁 Do you think that’s a good idea for man to change the scripture? IMO – That’s why “Hiring Pastors,” doesn’t work. It’s NOT in the Bible. NO Pastors – in pulpits – preaching – to people –… Read more »
I understand you.
Ok, here goes. Wanted to get in on this one. My first pastorate, at age 19, I was basically appointed by my pastor, who had pastored this other church years before and still kept in touch. They did what he said. I WAS a novice. Not just chronologically, but spiritually and practically. I almost died. I almost lost my wife, preganant with our first of four kids. It was a horrible experience. Looking back, I learned a TON, though. They heard me, sent me to the basement, voted and I moved in. Just like that. After this experience, I walked… Read more »
This is indeed the best way. The current system works like a mail-order bride results in a good marriage. We have had the practice of raising up ministers in our church in recent years. Our current pastor came as a youth minister having been in Campus Crusade. When the pastor at the time retired, he started filling in while the search committee went looking for a new pastor. After a few months, they looked at Skip and noted what a great job he was doing filling in. So they offered him the pastorate and started looking instead for a youth… Read more »
All the congregations that are described with detail in the NT are led/shepherded/pastored by elders.” Yes, elderS, plural. I think the point Amos Love is making is that the modern senior-pastor scenario that we consider normal isn’t found in the New Testament AT ALL. On the other hand, the multiple-elder approach to leadership that was the norm in the New Testament is not found in our modern churches AT ALL (for all intents and purposes). Even if we were to agree that the New Testament examples were DEscriptive rather than PREscriptive (and I’m not sure we have any Biblical proof… Read more »
Jay,
Amen to the infinite degree.
I agree, except that I find multiple elder rule in several places. Not the puniest of which is The Village Church in Flowermound and Bethlehem (John Piper). It is out there and works great. I also don’t see any problem Biblically with there being a “lead” elder as it were … true to definition, an overseer as Timothy seemed to be as he had authority to appoint the other elders. The problem is that the Senior Pastor gig has become a career ladder … not a shepherding service ministry. If we pastors just stopped drawing salaries and served with other… Read more »
Matt Parker,
Good word. 1 Timothy 5:17 even says the preaching elder is “worthy of double honor.”
Jay “the modern senior-pastor scenario that we consider normal isn’t found in the New Testament AT ALL.” Amen. “the multiple-elder approach to leadership that was the norm in the New Testament is not found in our modern churches AT ALL” Amen. “don’t you think it’s rather odd that we have abandoned the multiple-elder model COMPLETELY?” Amen. And how many elders today even qualify as an elder? And their kids? Ouch! That’s some tough qualifications given. The Bible talks about bishops, and elders. And qualifications for bishops and elders. Can you have one without the other? **blameless — unrebukeable, without fault.… Read more »
Interesting conversation: I need help. Please provide any information that would help me in determing church should expect from a pastor who has been serving in a position for 8 years.
This is a small church, avg 70 in SS and 105 in Worship, with a budget of $134,000 and we are falling short by about $20,000.
Just tell my if you were the pastor, what would you consider your duties to be. We have a part-time youth Minister and a part time female choir director.
No outreach program, just broadcast service over local radio.
Duties are not related to salary amount. I am a bi-vocational pastor and have served to everything from nothing to a decent living. I would serve for nothing. Duties are outlined in Scripture … teaching, shepherding … visiting, hospitals, counseling, oversight, scheduling … but alot of the administrative stuff should go to one of the other leaders who is gifted for it.
Your duties are to shepherd God’s people and seek the community. You should be leading the church towards more culturally-engaging worship and evangelism, however you think best fits your context.
If you’re in charge of finances at any level, cut back spending wherever possible, even if it’s what you pay the youth guy. Hope that the Gospel and the church’s mission are enough for him to stay. Anyone, churches included, makes bad decisions when in debt. If you have to take a pay cut as pastor and work at Wal-Mart, do so.
“OORAH”, said the bi vocational pastor!
Well said, Matt. haha
With no offense intended, I would hope that no pastor is in charge of finances at any level.
I have served churches ranging from 60 in attendance to over 200, with me as the sole paid staff member to being senior pastor with several staff, and have done so over a period of going on 24 years. From out of this experience–which I do not consider either extensive or exhaustive–I will share my thoughts. First, each and every church has its own personality and level of maturity, just as do individuals. You will need to find a way to access what yours are; perhaps your DOM can help, or if not, someone at your state convention office. Each… Read more »
As to your original premise: The actual data collected in 2008 in Alabama shows the average tenure for an Alabama Baptist pastor is OVER SEVEN YEARS. We are compiling new data as I type!
Have link to show us this?
Any idea how this compares to other states? My guess is, if 7 years is right in Bama, that is longer than most state averages.
http://www.alsbom.org/lss
I have been reading the comments off-and-on since it was posted, but have not yet commented. I find, finally, that I must do so. If the average tenure in a Southern Baptist church is now 7 years, more or less, we must be doing something right. When I was in seminary, in the mid-80s, I was told that the average was more like 2 years. Of course, it does vary from state to state, and even association to association. Here in Maryland, the average is longer, or so it seems to me. At the first church I served (1986), the… Read more »
On Seminary Training I am a graduate of a Baptist Bible College with a Major in Biblical Studies and Theology. I was mentored for years by my pastor who was also one of my professors. I have no problems grasping theological concepts or relating them to current situations in the local church. However, in spite of all of this many churches will not consider my resume because it doesn’t have a seminary degree. I am not complaining, rather, I’m making an observation. When dealing with search committee’s who question my education, or lack thereof, I explain to them how the… Read more »
Fascinating discussion..