Now I admit, my title may be a little over the top, but I want to ask a serious question. Who’s idea is the megachurch? I admit the megachurch has done some great things, but is the price that we paid worth the work? I think I need to back up and start from the beginning of my train of thought, and then you can decide if I am off the track.
Where I live in Iowa, they have decided that it’s better to remove the community schools and build big monstrous schools and bus kids in. It looks like in a few years my kids will be bussed to one of these big schools. I am not crazy about the idea, and I am not sure why buying a fleet of buses, hiring drivers, doing maintenance and repairs, having insurance and the occasional law suit is cheaper than just having 3 small schools. Then again, no one asked me. The mega school just seems to be the latest fad in America that started with the one stop shop.
Maybe Walmart gets a bad rap, and maybe Walmart is also a tool of Satan, but one thing is clear, it’s put a lot of small businesses out of business. The Super Center is now the staple, you can find them everywhere. They have everything one family can need under one roof, and boast the lowest prices around. In exchange, we have “self-checkout” and customer service that is only rivaled by rabid wolves who haven’t eaten in weeks.
The community store is gone, having given way to the super store. The community school is gone, given way to the giant, bus driven school. The last great vestige of community is the church. If stores and schools go big, why not the church. After all, we have the technology, we can just video stream the preaching to the entire building, lets just set it up stadium style. Get some hawkers selling bread and wine and we can turn some profit.
Ok, perhaps that is a little over the top as well, but in all seriousness, here is my concern. The idea of neighborhood, of community is gone. We don’t know our neighbors anymore, we don’t know the name of the guy who runs the corner market or talk to our kids teacher or principal anymore. We live in a society that is full of anonymity, and we are suppose to share the gospel. We have made it so easy to hide that people today are lonely and hurting and don’t know how to connect. Part of the reason is, we have taken away the venues in which they connected.
I do understand there are solutions in the megachurch. Sunday School and Small Groups, but how many will slip through the cracks, how many will we miss in our churches of ten thousand? I would be interested in seeing the percentage of those who attend a megachurch to those involved in small group. I know Rick Warren has done a good job with small groups, but at what cost?
I don’t blame the megachurch pastor. I don’t blame the megachurch members. To be honest, I don’t even blame Satan. I blame you and me. We have created a country where we want it bigger, better and faster. We want the giant cooperation, many like the idea of big government, we shop at the big store and sent our kids to the big school. We have been taken with the idolatry of the American society, we have built a giant tower to make a name for ourselves. We are a consumer based, capitalist society, and we just got what we asked for. My concern now is, what will the cost be for this monster we have created?
The Walmartization of the church?
Where better to serve as a “greeter!”
As a person somewhat fond of wildlife, I object to your comparison of Walmart customer service to wolves.
That’s not nice to the wolves.
Dan,
This is similar in content to a post I started last week and then scrapped and completely rewrote from a different angle, which may be appearing soon depending on Dave’s mood. I agree with what you are getting at. Somewhere in the bigger is better mode, we have whittled away at the “small things” that made connections more natural and effective.
Megachurches are all the rage and even in smaller towns I am finding that the church that most everyone wants to go to is the one that has a “program for everything and everyone” if you will. They may not be megachurch in size, but they are trying to make sure they are a “one stop shop for the whole family.” I think it is important to minister to the whole family. I am just wondering about our methods.
I am living in a rare land of plenty – after my recent appeal, I actually have a back-log of articles to post. I’m getting there!
This is an interesting question. I complain about shopping at Walmart, but I do it. And, even though it’s huge, sometimes I don’t find what I am looking for because Walmart has made some kind of a deal with a provider or some provider may not have wanted to meet their pricing demands . . . so I end up settling for another brand.
I have a feeling that some people in the mega-churches may find themselves not necessarily finding what they want, but settling for a similar brand.
Alan Hirsch said it best: “Even Jesus couldn’t build a church on consumers.”
I don’t know about of the devil or not. Churches small and large contain sinful people, economic inefficiencies, and problems. But, even WalMart knows the days of Mega are limited. Look at their new stores- getting smaller not bigger.
From a church standpoint the days (o.k. maybe decades) of the mega-church as we know it are limited. Most of this is purely economical: if you look in major cities (this is where the population is moving at an astronomical rate) and economics of a mega-church it isn’t sustainable. Big churches require big plots of land. This has historically been relatively easy to purchase on the edge/fringe of development (think the booming suburbs- or mega-neighborhood). But my generation hates the burbs and is moving into the city at a mind blowing pace. Guess what does not exist in the inner city? Large plots of land!! So, get ready for mega-church 2.0.
Not at all a Biblical argument here but curious: what do you think is most effective?
1,000 churches of 10
100 churches of 100
10 churches of 1,000
1 church of 10,000
Probably 100 of 100, though 1000 of 10 would be close.
That’s if you’re talking about building relationships and making lifetime disciples.
If you’re talking about marketing and programs, 1 of 10,000 wins hands-down.
Just depends on what the church is supposed to do.
Yeah, I kind of came down on the 100/100 side.
Darby Livingston meet Thom Hunter , Thom this guy has a warped sense of humor. Be on your guard.
When our country was expanding, settlers would come to a place, and when enough had gathered to form a ‘community’, the first thing they built was a Church. Sometimes the Church building doubled as a school until the community grew large enough to build a school-house.
The people gathered to build these buildings, and they paid for a teacher to come, or someone from the community was paid, who was considered qualified enough to teach in a one-room school.
But that was then.
Now? We have what we want most: our taxes are kept lower by the fact that our school buildings are often over-crowded and in need of major repairs. The text-books? Please, don’t get me started. And, if the truth be known, a lot of those teachers who are not supported, support the children who have little or no supplies. Teachers even buy lunches sometimes, and provide donations of clothing. Teachers have gone out together with school counselors and students to buy shoes that fit, in cases of severe need. Teachers, against all advice, have offered to drive a student who is ill and the mother to a clinic, when mom had no transportation and wept over the phone.
Point is: you don’t ‘get what you pay for’ in taxes. Sometimes you get a lot more. Because, among those shabby buildings, in the midst of those ancient crumbling text-books, you will find what can’t be bought with a decent wage: caring professionals who catch a lot of flack, but stay for the sake of the children they serve.
I taught in a building where a wall was separating from the building.
It was ‘temporarily’ braced back in place . . . until a new school could be built TWELVE YEARS LATER.
What’s missing in our country is that something that has nothing to do with money. Same with missions. It’s not about ‘the money’, is it?
It never was.
Community: the ‘common good’.
A lost value?
No. It will re-surface when people begin to understand that ‘materialism’ and ‘corporations’ are not more important than people.
And the children? The little ones who can’t vote, or don’t have a voice? They will once again become important.
If ‘mega’ schools and ‘mega’ churches provide safety for the young, when local school systems have lost the support of the tax-payers, then I would say ‘safety first’.
The ‘community’ that allows its children to go to substandard facilities, that ‘community’ died a long time ago anyway.
Try putting this to music, ” Where Have All The Mega-mouths Gone?”
Jack,
Thanks for the warning. My guard is up and my expectations are high.
Thom, As they should be . See he’s nowhere to be found. Heeey Darby !!
“The idea of neighborhood, of community is gone.”
I think the answer is in this sentence somewhere. Is the mega-church a “cause” of something, or an “effect.” Your post seems to imply it is “a cause,” but the above sentence may suggest it is an “effect.”
The mega-church did not cause the disintegration of the neighborhood–that proceeded the mega-church movement by many years. In a sense, the mega-church was a capitulation to culture. The church did not react quickly enough to remediate the trend.
I believe–my personal opinion–is that a better response than the mega-church would have been a “neighborhood church planting movement.” In regard to a post above I believe–again, not a theological exegesis but an opinion based on observation–that 10 neighborhood churches of 100 will accomplish more total Kingdom work than 1 church of 1000.
Just as school consolidation did not improve the effectiveness of education (statistic prove this unequivocally) so a mega-church movement has not improved upon the Kingdom growth (also seems to be overwhelmingly supported by statistics). In the final analysis–bigger is not better, but more is.
I realize this is not an exhaustive analysis of the mega-church movement. A mega-church (such as Saddleback) has a Kingdom affect that goes far beyond their own doors.
I’m talking about the “rule” of Kingdom work, of which the mega-church may be the “exception” that proves the rule.
Dan, Interesting topic. There are pros and cons in all size churches. People will go to church where they are being fed what satisfies them. If it is for entertainment, they look for that church. For ministries that focus on youth, children and singles…then they go to them (sports, bible drills, spiritual growth and memorization, babysitting). If for a place that teaches the Word of God and then sees it exemplified and applied, then they go there. What one person seeks from a “church” is often very different than what the Savior sought to establish with His church.
It’s interesting that we must break our mega-churches into tiny classrooms in order to have them grow because the preference people have is for smaller groups. I don’t like wandering through mazes to find the bathrooms, the fellowship hall, and sanctuary. I find it amazing that most folks in a large church come and form their own little circle of friends, rarely expanding unless forced to do so by the mean ol’ education minister who promotes classes and divides to multiply.
My biggest question is what am I bringing to the church body? Ask not what my church can do for me, ask what I can do for my church…may be a question we could entertain. If the church–mega or mini–is filled with the Holy Spirit and allowing Him to guide them, direct them, and grow them, then it accomplishes the will of God. And that is all that is important.
For the record, I shop at Wal-Mart as little as possible–hate the mile-long walk to the back of the store to get milk and eggs and the way they keep changing where they put stuff so I have to shop for hours looking for what I need. I shop the smaller local places and purchase things on sale before I go Wal-mart. Works for me. When Wal-Mart becomes like Dominoes Pizza and starts delivering, I may switch. 🙂 Until then, Country Mart, Save-A-Lot, Dollar General, Staples, Hobby Lobby and Ross’s gets my allegiance. Oh…and Goodwill and yardsales. selahV
Actually, WalMart does deliver many things – or ships via one of the big carriers: Just order online. Target and many other stores also ship to your home.
Thinking about it, there are churches that deliver. You can sit at home and download sermons and lessons all day long from your big church of choice. My church puts most of our preaching and teaching online and it’s good teaching at that.
While good preaching and teaching are essential, they are not enough. No church is built without individuals coming together as a community of believers marked an empowered by the Holy Spirit.
Selah, I have found that you can get a lot nicer things at the Junior League Consignment Stores than are sold at Walmart.
Women can save so much by shopping at charity thrift stores, consignment shops, and garage sales. It takes a little time to do it, but it pays off.
How many fall through the cracks at small churches?
The size of a church is not the problem.
It’s how well the laity is equipped to handle their roles in the sharing of the gospel, making disciples, and their own responsibility to learn and understand just who they have decided to follow and what that entails in their own lives.
Unfortunately, churches are notorious for getting the same people in the church to volunteer over and over again until they burn out. It also inhibits bringing in new people because of “turf wars” within the laity of the church. I am the most experienced videographer and A/V technician at my church. I have made my desire to help establish, train, and develop a media ministry at my church well known. The person on staff handling the existing media duties has basically told me that I’m not wanted because they got it under control. I generally help out in the nursery.
LifeWay still has the reputation of being a mile wide, inch deep in their literature. My wife is a teacher and says that the weekly literature has too much information with little room for discussion or even continuing on for another week. Since she’s a professional educator, I’m going to have to believe her. She says most Sundays’ literature is more suited to two or more Sundays.
The laity is mostly conditioned to get to know people just well enough to invite them to church. I tend to encourage them to get to know people to invite them into your home, then invite them to church. An overwhelming majority of the laity that I’ve experienced is basically trained to just get them to the church and let the ministers do the rest. That’s apathetic Christianity.
We point to mega churches as the problem when in reality, it’s the same problem in every church.
Bill, I’m inclined to believe your wife and I think I know what the problem is. We call the one in charge of the class: “teacher” instead of “facilitator.”
If you read the history of the Sunday School one learns it was never about “teaching,” but initially about “reaching.” The idea was to engage people in a small group discussion of Biblical truth.
Somewhere the train went off the track and Sunday School became a mini-seminary (and no so hot a seminary at that). There is (or at least was) a place for more indepth study of the Bible — Church Training Union (yes, I go back that far). We now try to “train” people using Sunday School which is analogus to driving a screw with a hammer — wrong tool for the job.
In many churches now, the worship service is being used to accomplish both the job of Sunday School and Church Training — and doing a poor job at both . . . while at the same time, diluting the effectiveness of worship.
As a matter of context, I am also the administrator of a school that is fully submerged in a cutting-edge, technological approach to education. Yet, when it comes to a strategy for growing a typical SBC church, I think we need to go backward to move forward.
We have to use all the tools in the box: Sunday School, Church Training, Worship — and, maybe even some Thursday night visitation.
And see, I’d tell you that going backwards in some methodology would be shooting yourself in the foot.
Visitation had its place and time. I get that.
However, during that time, families were at home. Now, families typically have something going four to five nights a week.
I would contend that visitation needs to be scrapped and the congregants need to be educated and equipped to find ways to reach the people that they happen to be with four or five nights a week: the people sitting in the bleachers with them at ballgames, the person in the cubicle next to them, the parents attending the same recital, etc.
While obviously there will be exceptions, families aren’t home like they used to be…
Yes
You’ll find the first megachurch was instituted by God in Acts chapter 2. The Jerusalem church was ONE church, not many small ones, with thousands of members, led by the apostles. They met together in the temple courts and in smaller groups in people’s homes. Nothing wrong with small churches (I pastor one) but lets not let our experience and preferences be the judge.
Excellent perspective, Todd!
When you gonna start posting here again???? (Sorry, can’t help it)
Todd, I’m not sure your interpretation of the church in Jerusalem is entirely correct — it may have been initially, but certainly not the norm as very quickly the church would have been too large for the temple courts.
Also, using your interpretation there was only “one physical church meeting in one physical place” in Rome, Ephesus, Colossae, etc.
The word, “one,” and “all” seem to be indicative of spiritual union in these cases, not physical proximity.
I don’t think one can find justification for Saddleback by reading the Book of Acts–at least not in a normative, prescriptive sense.
Can you find justification in the NT for a church of 75?
I can justify a church with 144,000 and no more. Just the 144,000 are going to heaven, everyone else is just out of luck…
Sorry, you just weren’t elect enough…
Todd, there are several references to churches under 75 in the NT, as I’m sure you are aware that “house” churches are mentioned several times.
The average house (even using the roof as was common) could not accomodate more than a few families.
As I’m sure you are also aware, the earliest building used exclusively for worship, excavated is dated at about 250 AD, was a modified house — not a mega-church (this structure was removed and rebuilt at Yale).
It wasn’t until the time of Constantine that building churches exclusively for large crowds became common. So, both the Scripture references to “church” and the archeological record mitigate against a theory of “one mega-church per town.”
Who says the churches met in the “average house”?
We know that there were 120 who gathered together before the day of Pentecost (Acts 1:15) and also in the upper room (2:1 — check your conservative commentaries for evidence that some hoses could hold a crowd of this size and larger). They numbered over 3,000 after Peter’s sermon (2:41) and met together regularly in the temple courts (2:46). By Peter and John’s arrest, the number grow to about 5,000 (4:4). They often met together in Solomon’s Colonnade (5:12). The numbers that gathered were described as “crowds” (5:14) and “large group”s (5:16). When there was a dispute about benevolence funds, the disciples gathered the “the whole company of the disciples (6:2)….
SO this idea that the church was always and only three or families huddled in a small home is a misnomer. And while there is no prescriptive or normative call for megachurches in the NT, neither is there for churches of 100 or house churches of 10. I don’t believe that you’ll find anywhere in the NT that the church is defined or limited by the size of the facility that can hold them. The gospel goes out, people get saved, the church grows.
Check out this research on the megachurch that dispells common myths about large congregations:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/18/AR2008091801703.html?nav=rss_email/components
http://www.edstetzer.com/2008/09/breaking-megachurch-stereotype.html
There are benefits and drawbacks to both large churches and small churches. It serves no one well if an individual or a small, insulated group of believers never mingle with a larger set of believers. We benefit from a recognition that we are part of the much larger Church whether we are committed to a small or large local church. We must be committed to a local congregation, but we are also part of the whole of the priesthood of all believers. That’s a pretty big Church.
I believe that all this arguing about church size is largely personal preference. Most of the criticisms of megachurches, after scrutiny, are red herrings.
1. Problems generally associated with large churches are just as present in small churches. People fall through the cracks, hide out, don’t know everybody, etc. in small churches too. And I’ve run into countless small churches that are centered around the personality and leadership of a single pastor. etc, etc, and so forth.
2. Research shows that megachurches are similar (if not slightly better) in ratio baptisms, better in doctrinal fidelity of its members, more likely to have strong relationships, etc. (see article above)
3. Exorbitant building costs are not so much if you consider ratio of expense to seating capacity. For example, in one city, a small church built a building that seats 250 for a cost of 1.5 million — cost per seat: $6000; a medium size church built a 1400 seat facility in the same city for 8 million — cost per seat $5700; a megachurch spent $35 million on their 10,000 seat building — cost per seat: $3500.
I could go on. My point is not that megachurches are better. We can legitimately argue the relative merits of small, large, and mega and there are indeed pros and cons to each. BUT, God is indeed using churches of all sizes to grow His kingdom, make His Son Known, and bring glory to Him. And I for one believe it is beyond the pale to suggest that megachurches are by nature a tool of the devil. Give me a break!
Thanks for your input and dicussion Todd, I think you have valid and viable points, but often times small churches may often be used by the devil, doesn’t seem to disqualify my point if a small church has the same problem as a large church. Maybe the devil just likes to use churches or church people. I believe it might be a bid naive to suggest that the devil doesn’t use the cultural and societal temptations to lead the church, mega or otherwise astray. Give me a break!
Todd, I don’t disagree with your statistics as far as they go. I do believe there are other advantages and disadvantages to mega-churches that cannot be reduced to numbers alone.
Having said that, I think there is an elephant in the room that is being overlooked by those who defend the idea of the mega-church. First, as I pointed out, there were no mega-churches in the first three centuries. Second, as I pointed out earlier, there are specific references to churches under say, 100 — the house churche. But, even with that information, I have no real argument with a church getting as large as God allows one to get. In that regard, it’s a matter of what God wants.
Here’s the elephant in the room for me in this discussion however: mega-churches are a very, very rare phenomenon: less than 2% are 2000 or more and when you get above 2000, the number goes way down.
This begs the question: if mega-churches are better, then what are we doing so grossly wrong that there are not more of them? I think the easy answer would be: we aren’t committed enough or dedicated enough as leaders to lead our churches to be mega-churches. Hence, my life like the bulk of my contemporaries in every denomination, has been an abyssmal failure. It is hard for me to argue on my own behalf because I am, in fact, a failure in many ways as a pastor.
Yet, here are some facts that seem to mitigate against the idea that 98% of pastors are failures: 1) no mega-churches in the first three centuries; 2) the references to churches in the Bible are overwhelmingly slanted toward house churches; and 3) there are places that mega-churches simply cannot thrive–like Albania, China, and other countries hostile to God. There may be a fourth component that mitigates against the push for mega-churches. Doctrinal error spreads much faster through a single, monolithic organization than a lose connection like SBC churches.
As I said, Todd, I’m not slamming mega-churches as tools of the Devil. The Devil can cause a nasty infection with a splinter as well as inflict great pain with a bat. So, I don’t think “good vs. evil” informs my ecclessiology, as much as a simple reading of the Bible and thoughtful reflection on reality.
Frank,
The fact that there were no documented “Mega” churches can simply be attributed to lack of technology and the culture of the time. The temple in Jerusalem was certainly large enough to handles thousands of Jews at a time though I doubt the temple allowed Christians to congregate on their premises.
The references to mainly “house” churches can simply be a by-product of the lack of technology and the lack of suitable, and sympathetic, facilities to handle a mass of a couple thousand people.
I agree with your statement that mega churches cannot thrive in areas hostile to the gospel. That premise really is a no-brainer.
I am convinced that in many regards, we point to mega churches as scapegoats for our own church’s imperfections. It’s easy to criticize FBC Dallas for their 130mil building campaign complete with “an architectural invitation to the gospel” but it’s not so easy to criticize FBC Podunk for spending 500K on a pipe organ which will eat up 8% of that church’s budget every year for just upkeep. In some people’s minds, both expenses are worth every penny.
Just as a point of clarity, there are just as many if not more, references to the assemblies of believers meeting in the synagogues as there are to them meeting in homes. We have no way of knowing how big any of those groups were except for a couple of head counts in Acts that number in the thousands. The great house church of Acts is mostly a Barna and Viola idealization.
Jeff, you are not accurate in stating we have no idea how big the synagogues were. They accommodated about 10 families. Don’t forget that archeology (not to mention written history) has given us much information.
You assume facts not evidenced by the Scriptures, history, or archeology.
You are desperately mistaken to indicate that the house church of Acts is mostly a Barna and Viola idealization. That is so historically inaccurate to be almost blasphemous to state so boldly without any facts. If you are going to discuss what is a “modern phenomenon,” certainly the American strip mall movement would be a better candidate.
There is nothing in Scripture that mandates the size of a church. A church like a human can come in many different sizes. Yet, the historical record is absolutely clear: the most explosive growth of the Kingdom came before any building was built specifically to house the church of Christ. That fact is undeniable and conclusive according to the records we have.
Frank,
You are arguing against things I didn’t say. I didn’t say there was anything in Scripture that mandates the size of a church.
The only statement that I made was that the synagogue is referenced more often as a meeting place than homes in Scripture for the early church. I haven’t undertaken a bean-counting approach to this, but I can recall far more instances that most people have failed to notice in Acts alone about the synagogue as the early meeting place of preference. Don’t forget where Paul was sent to hunt for believers when he went to Damascus after all. There are some facts, would you care to back up your bluster with facts to the opposite.
One further word about the size of the early meetings. Just because a building can hold X number of people, doesn’t mean that it always does hold X number of people, so your assertion about the 10 families capacity is not relevant. We simply don’t have a bunch of head counts of congregations in the NT, that was all I said.
Back up from the emotional reaction and read what I say, not what you think I mean.
The problem with the megachurch, in my view, is not that they exist. The problem is, if they are based on American idolatry of bigger is better, and then we keep moving their pastors and leaders into positions to lead our denomination. That makes me nervous.
The other major idol of American culture that has invaded the church is the idea of Success. We think (like our fellow Americans) that success is size, numbers, achievements, acomplishments, noteriety, citation, emmulation, publishing, etc.
As Christians I believe we should not be able to point to any successes other than being reproducing disciplemakers. That is all Paul ever did other than profess that he was useless apart from our only boast: the Cross of Christ.
THE CROSS IS THE ONLY SUCCESS THE CHURCH SHOULD EVER BOAST IN; and it isn’t our succes, it is Jesus’ success. He was on the Cross, not us.
We (the church at large) take the writtings of Driscoll, Warren, Young (and Jr), Swindoll, Osteen, Hemphill, Platt, Blackaby, McManis, Rainer, and Barna as PRESCRIPTIVE rather than DESCRIPTIVE. No doubt these and many other pastor/authors have much to say about what they’ve experienced, but that doesn’t mean that what they have experienced can or should be experienced in the same way by others.
Take each with a grain of salt: what they write about is what God has done (or what they perceive He has done) in their personal experience. That doesn’t make any of their books or experiences Gospel or repeatable or a blueprint to be followed. These are not “success” that we should desire, only experiences. We should look for biblical principals, and certainly should be inspired to pray for God to move in our lives/churches/ministries, but we should not be seeking to be to be Saddleback 2.0 or Mars Hill Church: Episode VI The Return of the Holy Spirit.
We (Americans) admire too much these things we see as successful and judge ministries too much by numbers (babies, baptisms, believers in pews), size, and this all couched in terms of ROI. I know of a couple who spent a year in the 10-40 window who couldn’t lay claim to knowing they had led one person to Jesus. The made friends, taught English, shared the love of Jesus, but were unaware if any of those they knew had converted becasue doing so was a death sentence. Before being reassigned, they were required to sit in a FAITH class and have one documented salvation attirbuted to them, not to God the Holy Spirit, but to them.
This type of success model (which drives the admiration of the Mega-Church) is sinful: God should get the glory for salvation and chruch growth, not a handful of pastors who happen to ride herd over those congregations.
I’ve been a Southern Baptist all my life, but I’m not at all happy with what SBC has become. I personally believe that Rick Warren has become the new “pope” of the SBC. I also believe that we have become the Laodicean Church. I know that W.A. Criswell was Rick Warren’s mentor along time ago. But, I don’t think Criswell would like one bit what has become of this new (New Age) thinking in the SBC. Dr. Criswell was an old-time-religion pastor. Why, he even used the unmutilated King James Version from the pulpit. I do have his personal letters on his opinion of new versions. Thank God!
Read Criswell’s book Espository Sermons on Revelatiion — especially the chapter on THE LAODICEAN CHURCH, Chapter 16. Criswell says on page 171: “Passing for Christianity, there is a “goodishness” that is insipid and that makes our Lord sick. that poses as Christianity is a sort of civic betterment program, a sort of “love your mother” attitude. It is maudlin sentimentality that is supposed to be the Christian faith. It makes God sick.” Dr. Criswell also stated that he could not tell anymore the difference between the World and the Church.
I say a hearty AMEN to my Dear long-time pastor of First Baptist, Dallas. As for my opinion of the Megachurches, Rick Warren has had the most influence in all this stuff, entertainment, bigness, etc. I just wish Rick Warren and his good buddy, Rupert Murdoch (porno king) would get lost. Oh yes, Rupert is a Jew who owns the NIV and Zondervan and Fox and just about everything. Also, I’m sure I’m the Lone Ranger on what I’ve just had to say!!! One more thing, just look at that $130 million travesty in Dallas. I just hope Criswell can’t look down and see what his church is becoming!!!
Marcia Hendricks
“”I personally believe that Rick Warren has become the new “pope” of the SBC.””
I’m sure Rick would get a laugh at this! Some of his harshest critics are Southern Baptists.
“”I personally believe that Rick Warren has become the new “pope” of the SBC””
Interestingly, this dear pastor was also a very staunch supporter of Rick Warren until the day he died.
Sorry, I don’t know how the quote got mixed up. I was referring to the reference about Dr. Criswell being used (his book) to attack Rick Warren.
Marcia, you throw a lot of accusations and insults around here. I would appreciate if your next comment here had a more reasoned and gracious spirit.
Dave Miller, It was not my intention to be unreasonable or ungracious in my comments. In my comment about Rick Warren and Rupert Murdoch I still feel the same way. Frank L. stated in his comment that Criswell was a supporter of Rick Warren until the day he died. If that is true, than I have been rather deceived by Criswell and all that he had said to me — about new Bible versions. Dr. Criswell died in 2002 and this is May of 2011. Was Criswell familiar back then with the fact that Rick Warren is a member of the Council on Foreign Relations? Also, would a Jew who does not believe in Jesus Christ to be the Son of God belong to Rick Warren’s Saddleback church in CA? but he does and why? Rupert Murdoch does own Zondervans, who owns the NIV, Harper Collins, etc? Is it wrong for me to question these things?
Well, I could go on and on but it would not do any good. However, just one more thing, why did Joel Gregory get mad at Dr. Criswell when Dr. Criswell told him “No Rock Music”? This is from Joel Gregory’s book, “Too Great a Temptation”! Most of all, why would I be so foolish as to think that there would be at least one person in SBC that would still stand up for KJV and take a stand one way or another. Again, I will not ever go along with Westcott and Hort’s versions of the Bible. Also, Show Business Does Not Belong In The Church and I still can’t stand the looks of Robert Jeffress’ new campus, and why are churches now being called “campuses”? Furthermore, if I’m wrong about all that I’ve said and believe, then maybe I’m just not one of the “elect.”
Sorry again if I’ve been ungracious and unreasonable, but the whole title of this blog was — Tools of the Devil and I was just adding my opinions.
Marcia
“”would still stand up for KJV “”
That sheds a lot of light on the matter for me.
Frank L.
Thank you so much for your comments.
I do appreciate your reply and God Bless You for your kindness!
Marcia
Marcia,
To equate Rick Warren with an anti KJV Bible is not fair. First of all, the NIV is indeed associated with Zondervan who is under the parent control of Harper Collins. But this association/accusation is steeped in KJV ONLYISM. You do know (at least I would hope so) that the United Kingdom still has a copyright on the KJV and they will until 2039 unless the Crown changes it again. The publisher for the Queen is… you guessed it… Cambridge/Oxford press who use Harper Collins to print the KJV. Still think that Harper Collins and Robert Murdoch are the devil in disguise?
I don’t know if you are one of the ‘elect’. I surely hope and pray so. But if you are basing your salvation on what Bible you use, perhaps you should rethink. Rick Warren has some associations I’m not thrilled about, but it doesn’t have anything at all to do with KJV of the Bible. Read the letter from the KVJ translators (who were almost ALL Calvinists, to say nothing of Theodore Beza, who succeeded John Calvin, and Stephanus who were both staunch Calvinists). they’ll tell you that you are wrong.
BTW, the Westcott, Hort argument is not accurate any longer. See if you can find out why.
If you have some other legitimate issue with Rick Warren, I’d be happy to read it.
May God Bless you richly.
Chief Katie,
Katie, I personally don’t trust Rick Warren across any street, and in my own opinion, he is a false teacher who has stirred up a lot of trouble with a lot of people. If indeed we are in the last days, and I certainly believe we are, then we should be careful to not be deceived by many false preachers, teachers, and their are plenty of them. Also, what is that logo on the front of the New King James Version? It looks very much like the Freemason’s logo. I’ll check it out further. Katie, have you asked yourself why so many many new versions of the Bible in, let’s say the past 50 or sixty years? I believe I’ll just stay with the Great Christians of the past. Many people were won to Christ through the preaching from the King James Version.
I don’t mean to sound arrogant, but I’m not an onlyist, just a person that accepted Jesus Christ as my Savour when I was five years old. Sorry Katie, but I see that my reply has be cancelled!!!
“”Many people were won to Christ through the preaching from the King James Version. “”
Do you believe anyone was won to the Lord BEFORE the King James Version?
Part of the reason for the explosion in new translations is related to the availablility of better research software and printing methods.
Also, we have much better manuscript evidence than was available to the King James Version translators. I grew up on the KJV, so I have a great love for that version, but I don’t worship it just because it is in the past.
Also, I’m just curious as to whether you have ever personally had a conversation with Rick Warren? I have. I don’t see him as diabolical as you portray him. I understand that many people criiticize him, but most for things I personally know he does NOT believe, support or endorse.
I do know–and others who know him better know better than I–that he is an extremely committed person, very passionate about sharing the gospel, and loves people greatly.
So, I’d just like to post my disagreement with your caricature of him — not that he needs me to defend him. I also do respect your right to disagree.
America’s a great place.
I’m not sure what Marcia is talking about here. But I can tell you that none of her comments were moderated or deleted. A comment may have gotten lost, but it was not something that anyone here did.
Marcia,
I’m very much relieved to see that you are not an onlyist, but you are, in fact, using some of their arguments. And… Sister Marcia, you seem very angry and that too, is characteristic of the onlyists.
50 Bibles???? Are you maybe exagerrating a bit? If I counted every specialty Bible such as the Soldiers Bible, the Sailors Bible, the Airman’s Bible, the Teen Bible, the Woman’s Bible, Amplified Bibles, the PK Bible, etc., then yes, there are probably 50 different selections. But that has nothing whatsoever to do with translations. It’s no where near as many as that. I have a KJV that my grandmother gave me for my 16th birthday in 1968. Guess who the publisher is? It’s Zondervan. I guess my grandmother didn’t know that the anything coming from Zondervan is suspect and should be avoided. I also have a NIV, a NASB, NKJV (without any masonic logos) and ESV. The NIV isn’t my favorite but there is nothing demonic about it. My favorite is the ESV. But I use all them in my personal Bible study. My Pastor prefers the NASB. There is not a single doctrinal change in any of them. I particularly enjoy J. I. Packer and his commentary in the ESV is truly Christ honoring. There really isn’t a plot to destroy the Anglican KJV.
I don’t personally attend Rick Warren’s church though I lived in California for most of life and I might have in the past. Truth be told I left my SBC church some time ago, but not over doctrinal or secondary/tertiary associations.
I admit, I couldn’t sit under Warren’s authority. But I think that people have accused him of everything to include apostacy and it’s turned into a big pile-on that I don’t find warranted.
Not sure about why your ‘reply’ had been cancelled. The good people who moderate this blog are very fair and I’d guess they allow all but the most confrontational posts. Dave Miller in particular, is careful to allow for respectful disagreement, but I feel confident that when mud starts slinging, he steps in, as he should. We are blessed to have him.
Yes, people disagree with Warren. In fact many, many people disagree with him (to include myself), but I have found that people who really love the Lord don’t raise the issue in mean-spirited ways.
I will pray for you Sister Marcia.
Here is lovely reminder of joyful Christians.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6-u4R9vHFtU
Chief Katie: I do thank you for your replying to me. I think (don’t know for sure) I was cancelled because I was mentioning the RSV and it’s translators who were the National Council of Churches, which was documented that a few Communists were on that translation commitee. Also, that the NIV was translated mainly because of the feminists and two homosexuals who were on the translation commitee. Even as I type this I feel that the cancel sign will pop up. However, it hasn’t so far.
I am sorry if I sounded mean spirited, but everytime I say something about what I’m so deeply convicted of in my heart, I’m cut off. That seems to me to be such a strange thing within itself. If I misquoted something, then yes, I should be cut off or warned. I was talking about Rick Warren concerning his influence over ever so many leaders in the churches (SBC especially). Concerning the Bible versions was a different matter. There have been hundreds and hundreds of new versions coming off the press, on the market, all the time now, one right after the other. I know that they all have to compare themselves with none other bible but the King James Version. I believe they are corrupt, but I respect your feelings in your right to believe what you believe, and desire to have the right in America to have mine. I have two sisters, one of which uses the NIV and the other uses the NASV. They insult me because of my love for the KJV. They belong to Berachah Church under R.B. Thieme, Jr. in Houston, TX. To me Bob Thieme (his son) is dead wrong. Why, he believes in abortion, had said that Roe vs Wade was one great decision back in 1973. He does not believe in the blood of Christ. I could go on, but I’ll go no further with Thieme. They think this man is next to God. Knowing how Southern Baptists believe, most of which (I believe)Thieme does not believe in the precious Blood of Christ. Thieme despised the King James Version and has told them which Bible to use, either NASV or NIV. I cannot understand why I never hear a Southern Baptist preacher/leader ever mention anything about R.B. Thieme, Jr. My sisters would love to control me but they can’t. They keep trying to get me to get involved with their belief. I have my belief, which is the right one. I’m a widow and have two daughters. Today (well it’s Monday now) was Mother’s Day. One daughter called from Santa Fe. She was on something. She wanted to tell me how much she hated me and slammed the phone on me. I still love her and always will, but she has terrible hatred for everyone. My other daughter didn’t call, I didn’t expect her to. She and her lesbian lover (they live together and have adopted a little boy) have made it clear that they also can’t stand me or their deceased father. I tried to be a good mother but my husband and I never had much money — and my girls wanted riches we could not afford to give. I mentioned the situation to Dr. W.A. Criswell a few times, and he said to just keep praying for them, that that was all I could do. I recently had 8 stents placed in my heart arteries (aorta). In about six weeks, after I’m healed enough, I have to have open heart surgery. I just know that the Lord promised never to leave me or forsake me. However, I’m still scared a little, and I’m hurt over my daughters. Maybe that is why I sounded a bit mean spirited, for which I’m sorry.
One last thing, years ago I was so hurt over all the trouble that I felt hopeless, so one day I looked into a bottle to find the answer. Months later, it was on a Sunday morning, no one was home, my husband had gone fishing (he was a Christian) I heard a man speaking on the TV. I sat down to listen and it was W.A. Criswell. I don’t remember what he was preaching on exactly, but what he did say was what I so needed to hear. From that time on I loved that preacher and what he had to say I believe actually might have saved my life as I was at the point of hopelessness. I’ll never get over that and will always reverence W.A. Criswell. He was a great old-time religion preacher. He was loved by so many, but he sure had his critics as well. I didn’t worship him, but I sure loved his preaching and he sure could preach.
Thanks again, Katie. I didn’t mean to be so long-winded. So long for now, as it’s almost 2 a.m. Monday. Please remember me in your prayers, as I will remember you in mine. I just hope I can sleep!!!
Marcia
Dave and Jeff, are ya’ll secret communists? :).
Marcia, I’m not sure what you are doing, but you have not had any replies “cancelled” here.
You have now twice accused us of doing so. I have checked our “trash” file and none of your comments are there. You are NOT being deleted by us.
You have now twice accused us of deleting or “cancelling” your comments. It was not true either time.
Sister Marcia,
You are a wounded soul and my heart grieves for you and with you. I consider it a priviledge to pray for you. My own children were raised in a Christian home, but there were times in their early adulthood that I wondered where I had gone wrong. They’ve since settled down and been wonderful Christian people. I’m proud of them. But I know how painful it is to watch children who raised with the fear and admonition of the Lord, continue to make bad decisions. In good times and bad, I just kept praying for them.
If I may, I’d like to offer some advice that I had to learn the hard way. If you judge everything by its associations, none of us could come away without someone besmirching our character. I’d like to offer an example from my own life. I don’t know if you know who Dan Barker is, but for the sake of clarity, Dan is co-partner with Annie Laurie Gaylor of the Freedom from Religion Foundation. He was once a full-gospel minister and to this day he still collects royalties from his Christian children’s musicals. He packed his bags and moved from California to Madison, Wisconsin. In the process he abandoned his wife and his 5 children. Dan is making it his life’s goal to remove every vestige of our faith from the entire country. Dan is my first cousin. His mom and my mom are sisters. Could anyone rightly judge my character simply because I have an association with him?
I look at John Piper who took heavy criticism for inviting Rick Warren to his Desiring God conference. These two are very far apart, yet people couldn’t wait to throw epithets at Piper. Sometimes Christians lack any generosity of spirit.
As I showed you in the truth about Harper Collins, it’s dangerous to make judgments based on faulty information. So, while you find it deplorable for a certain publishing company to print the Bible, I find it equally deplorable for a King to decide he wants a new Bible translated for less than honorable reasons. It seems that any excuse will do. Any association, no matter how remote, is supposed to be evidence of a conspiracy. The issue is not who is associated with what version of the Bible, but whether the Bible was translated in good faith without any doctrinal errors. I personally don’t think that the Risen King would allow any corrupt Bible to exist. He did promise to protect his Word.
I will be very happy to pray for you and I’ll add you to my church prayer chain. You are important to God. I hope that you will find some peace.
Be encouraged, God is faithful.
Dave Miller: I never never accused you or anyone on this blog of personally deleting my comments. I would not ever accuse you of doing that.
After typing my first two paragraphs of my comments (I believe to Chief Katie), a small bright red rectangular box popped up on the upper-right side, above the comment box, with black letters stating: “Your reply has been cancelled.” I was amazed! I remember that my first two paragraphs were about the RSV and its translators, picked by the National Council of Churches and that several card-carrying Communists were on the RSV translation commitee. The second paragraph was about the NIV and its translating commitee, which consisted of two homosexuals, one, a lesbian, and one a male homosexual. They were all on the old Phil Donahue show which was aired back in the early 80s or late 70s. Also, the feminists were upset over the King James Version referring in general to all of us “man” instead of him and her. Even, as liberal as Phil Donahue was and still is, asked, “Why are there so many many new versions coming off the press?” Strange how even a unbeliever would pose that question, which is more than I can say for the Christian community.
At the close of that last paragraph is when the rectangle box popped up informing me that my reply was being deleted. At that point, I was a little shocked, but I started another paragraph and finished my reply because the pop-up box had disappeared. And the rest of my reply was published, with the exception of my first two paragraphs. In the past, I’ve had pop-ups on the screen, but usually they were ads.
Please be assured that I never said you or anyone else was deleting my reply. As surely as the Lord is my witness, I don’t know why this happened anymore than you. Things happen — I even thought that maybe the Devil himself did not want what I was relating in my reply, because I certainly was sure it was not God who would shut my mouth. This is still America, but with the present administration, I don’t know for how much longer one can be allowed free speech!
Again, I would not and never did accuse you or anyone on SBC Voices of deleting my reply, and I hope with all might heart that you will give me the benefit of any doubt. I respect you and this Blog.
Marcia
I think it pops up on everyone’s replies. It says “Cancel Reply.” It is an option for you to click in case you change your mind. I can see it now, on my page, to the upper right of this text box.
TESTING
Nope, once you hit ‘submit’, the ‘cancel reply’ does not work.
Just as an added point of information, usually when you hit “cancel reply” it keeps your text and moves the entire box to the bottom of the page. I am not sure how Marcia’s comments got lost and the popup box she describes is something I have never noticed before.
I didn’t do anything to the comments either. We don’t have any way to moderate a comment in any way until it has been submitted in any case.
Jeremy, unfortunately, when “cancel” pops up, some of us ignore it, when we probably should click it 🙂
Frank L. Thanks for the information about the pop ups. I’m new to SBC Voices and was not aware of these pop ups or how to handle them. I do thank you for filling me in on this. However, I did keep typing a few more paragraphs, and they were published.
I know that no one deleted my replay comments, for that I’m sure. However, I’m still baffeld (wrong spelling) on why my first two paragraphs were not published in my comments. They were totally missing. Oh, well, just another thing to think about. Thinking is a bad habit of mine, apparently. I was a private detective along with my husband for about 24 years, and I was warned about what that business can do to one’s mind. I’d always wind up feeling sorry for our clients and sometimes just tore the bill from us to them up. Not always, but at times.
Thanks again about the information about the pop ups on SBC Voices. I do appreciate “blogs” because it finally gives people a chance to get their “say” said. Also, I appreciated your comment in standing up for the King James Version. I still can’t stand pop-ups!
Marcia