Here is a copy of the resignation letter Mark Driscoll sent to his elders yesterday.
October 14, 2014
Michael Van Skaik
Chairman, Board of Advisors and Accountability
Mars Hill Church
Dear Michael:
By God’s grace I have pastored Mars Hill Church for 18 years. Today, also by God’s grace, and with the full support of my wife Grace, I resign my position as a pastor and elder of Mars Hill. I do so with profound sadness, but also with complete peace.
On August 24th I announced to our Mars Hill family of churches that I had requested a leave of absence from the pulpit and the office for a minimum of six weeks while a committee of elders conducted a formal review of charges made against me by various people in recent times. Last week our Board of Overseers met for an extended period of time with Grace and me, thereby concluding the formal review of charges against me. I want to thank you for assuring Grace and me that last Saturday that I had not disqualified myself from ministry.
You have shared with us that this committee spent more than 1,000 hours reviewing documents and interviewing some of those who had presented charges against me. You have also shared with me that many of those making charges against me declined to meet with you or participate in the review process at all. Consequently, those conducting the review of charges against me began to interview people who had not even been a party to the charges.
I readily acknowledge I am an imperfect messenger of the gospel of Jesus Christ. There are many things I have confessed and repented of, privately and publicly, as you are well aware. Specifically, I have confessed to past pride, anger and a domineering spirit. As I shared with our church in August, “God has broken me many times in recent years by showing me where I have fallen short, and while my journey, at age 43, is far from over, I believe He has brought me a long way from some days I am not very proud of, and is making me more like Him every day.”
Prior to and during this process there have been no charges of criminal activity, immorality or heresy, any of which could clearly be grounds for disqualification from pastoral ministry. Other issues, such as aspects of my personality and leadership style, have proven to be divisive within the Mars Hill context, and I do not want to be the source of anything that might detract from our church’s mission to lead people to a personal and growing relationship with Jesus Christ.
That is why, after seeking the face and will of God, and seeking godly counsel from men and women across the country, we have concluded it would be best for the health of our family, and for the Mars Hill family, that we step aside from further ministry at the church we helped launch in 1996. I will gladly work with you in the coming days on any details related to our separation.
Recent months have proven unhealthy for our family—even physically unsafe at times—and we believe the time has now come for the elders to choose new pastoral leadership for Mars Hill. Grace and I pledge our full support in this process and will join you in praying for God’s best for this, His church, in the days and years ahead. Grace and I would also covet your prayers for us as we seek God’s will for the next chapter of our lives. Therefore, consider this written notice of my voluntary termination of employment.
Finally, it would be my hope to convey to the wonderful members of the Mars Hill family how deeply my family and I love them, thank them, and point them to their Senior Pastor Jesus Christ who has always been only good to us.
Sincerely,
Pastor Mark Driscoll
I’ve never been either a devotee of Driscoll, nor one of his detractors, but this is a sad story.
I just thought this was significant news.
Comments are open for the time, depending on how people behave.
Although Pastor Driscolls offenses are egregious I hope a story of redemption is told by the end of this
I should probably close comments now, Nick. I’m not sure anyone can say it any better than that.
Yes nick well said
AMEN!!!
“I’ve never been either a devotee of Driscoll, nor one of his detractors, but this is a sad story.”
That is exactly how I feel as well.
Sad for all involved. I pray that this next season of his life proves a source of continued personal repentance, rejuvenation, refocusing on ministry…I also pray for his family, I pray for Mars Hill.
Most importantly that God will be glorified even in the midst of what seems like an impossible and difficult situation to say the least.
Thankfully, God is in the restoration business.
The mega church environment is far and away our of my sphere of relationships. However as a DOM for the past 21 years I have worked with many churches (all small in number) as the church and pastor separated in less that desirable circumstances. It is always sad and heart wrenching for both pastor and church even when it does not make the news.
Several years ago LifeWay used the term “epidemic” when referring to forced terminations. This is heartbreaking.
For clarity, this was a voluntary, not forced, termination. At least that is what it appears to be.
Dave
thanks for that clarification. I should have been more careful. My comment was not related to MD, it was more general. My experience has been that when a person “resigns” under fire he is simply beating the gun. Of course this is not aways the case, and in the case of MD we should take it at face value.
Those are spot on comments by both of you. I am not a fan of his style but I certainly want and hope to see the Lord use him in the future.
My question is how about SBTS almost invading the Great White North? I hope to see some thoughts on their new campus but I like it.
I also will agree here that putting Russell Moore in charge of the ERLC was a great move. I sure like his leadership there.
At the risk of starting a rabbit trail I’ll regret we walk down, what on earth are you talking about with SBTS invading the Great White North?
Maybe this? Not sure.
http://news.sbts.edu/2014/10/15/southern-seminary-trustees-accept-gift-of-wisconsin-university-campus/
Wow. I feel special. I apparently knew something before Dave did. 😀
The Internet runs slow through the corn fields of Iowa, so Dave tends to be behind the curve.
I hope and pray that the additional campus for SBTS will help in spreading the gospel. Who would of thought that Houston would be going after pastors while Wisconsin welcomes one of our SBC Seminaries?
Not knowing the individual or the charges No comment
Bob, I don’t want to nit pick but I think your “no comment” was a comment 🙂
Anytime a preacher falls, it should be a warning to the rest of us preachers.
Stay close to Jesus.
Walk humbly before God.
Be accountable to your Savior, your church, your family, your preacher friends.
Remember, “There but for the grace of God, go I.”
Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. -1 Corinthians 10:12
David R. Brumbelow
Amen Brother Brumbelow.
When a pastor falls, his church suffers. When an arm is struck, the whole body feels the pain. When a leader stumbles (whether it be church, home, business, nation), the entire organization is impacted in some way. The enemy knows this. But God …
Certainly the church has gone through a lot and will continue to go through a lot in the coming days. One of the reports today cited some of the economic troubles they have had and a significant decrease in giving in their current fiscal year, probably owing to the controversy and people leaving the church. They said 2 campuses already closed. In a discussion/debate several years ago with Mark Dever and James Mcdonald (I think it was posted on the Gospel Coalition), Driscoll said that if he ever dropped dead than there would be no more multi-site church but the individual campus pastors would become “senior” pastors of their own church – I wonder if that will be the case or if they will search for a successor visionary over all the locations.
Well, this is tragic. The entire process, although difficult based upon the antics, etc., was still botched by the church of which Mark and his family were an arm, leg, hand, eye with…and now there continues to be ill will, which comes through loud and clear in this letter.
I’m a little concerned that without the oversight of an elder board he will regress or go off the rails.
I hope he gets in a good church and is being ministered to, both him and his family. When a pastor leaves a church there is often no one to reach out to him.
MD will learn his own lessons from this. The only thing we can can do is learn ours. The celebrity pastor culture in evangelicalism is toxic. It is a self perpetuating cycle of books, conferences, interviews and accolades. When will we learn? And yet we continue to flock around (either virtually or literally) mega-church celebrities. We buy their books, attend their conferences, and generally bask in the light of their exaltedness. In the SBC we are among the worst offenders. Every two years we elect a new one as our president. Is it any wonder these guys fall?
Truly not trying to start anything here, but I also think that attack on fellow pastors who happened to Pastor large churches is quite counterproductive and not at all healthy to our convention.
I would add that it’s not only mega church pastors that fail….it’s just them that we hear about it.
Tarheel,
You’re missing my point. I’m not blaming mega-church pastors for being who they are, as much as I am blaming us for creating them.
Problem is I’m not really sure what that means?
Celebrities don’t create themselves, they are created by us, by the masses who flock to them, pack their churches, buy their books, attend their conferences, elect them president of the SBC year after year. We all want to hear how great, how wise, how wonderful we are. How we are “God’s man”, and a great leader, etc, etc, etc. These guys do hear it. Every day in every way. That any of them withstand the strain of that is remarkable, but clearly many do not. Even now, within our own denom we hear about SBC pastors living in million dollar mansions, churches where no one knows what the pastor makes, that his salary is set by someone outside the church. We hear about networks of people who have shielded and even written recommendations for sexual predators. We hear about megachurch pastors and other celebrity leaders bringing lawsuits against their detractors to try to silence them. Can anyone really imagine Jesus living the lifestyle that these guys have?
Some.
Not all some.
Do you think that it’s only mega church pastors who are shrouded in secrecy, or have a lack of accountability, etc…
Of course not, but surely you can see how the cult of celebrity makes such things so much more likely?
The alcoholic is responsible for his own sin, but we are not blameless if we flock around him handing him booze.
We all suffer the attacks of pride. For most of us, laboring in obscurity helps mitigate its effects. But what if suddenly we are not obscure? What if we have thousands of fans, devoted to us, hanging on our every word? Saying to us “tell us how to lead”, “tell us how to grow our church”, “tell us how to rule our household”, “tell us how to be real men”? What if they give us money, lots of money? What if they give us power? What if they ask us to write books and headline conferences? What if they build us an empire? What then?
Mr. Driscoll does not seem to realize that what he views as “certain personality features in the context of Mars Hill” might possibly be disqualifying characteristics.
This is another self-serving, manipulative and strikingly unrealistic statement from Mr. Driscoll, adopting the pose perhaps of the captain who goes down with his ship, or the Obi-Wan-Kenobi of Church History.
I believe these are the words of a man who has not learned, and will perhaps never learn, to do other than justify himself and portray himself as just another victim of the whole scenario.
Time will bear this out. Driscoll has not and will not change. He will continue to make the same or analogous “mistakes”, and people who trust him will continue to find themselves disappointed.
But who would not rejoice if this turned out, by an act of supernatural grace, not to be the case?
Wow. I am not sure how to respond to that, so I’ll just say this:
Until we see evidence that his seemingly repentant attitude is not genuine I think we owe it to him, as as we would any other believer, the benefit of believing him and Praying for him.
Thanks, Tarheel. My point is that this letter already contains evidence within it that his repentance is not genuine. What does he mean by his “personality”? I think it means his personality traits that many find objectionable “in the context of Mars Hill” are “off the table” as far as he is concerned. The three other criteria on which he was “exonerated” are all that matter. I’m suggesting his letter contains several serious internal contradictions which undermine the credibility he so earnestly seeks and the affirmation as a still-qualified pastor he clearly wants.
Maybe.
I’m still wanting to give him the benefit of the doubt. He’s admitted character flaws that he needs to work on he’s admitted his faults and is taken responsibility for them – partially by offering his resignation.
I expect, that in his time off, he may discover that they are more areas in which he needs to repent.
As has been stated before God is in the business of redeeming that which seems unredeemable.
Tarheel,
I think the point that Charles is making really cuts through the clutter of the letter. In the context of 18 years this has festered without any real checks to the qualifications. The fact of the matter is that God doesn’t need Mark Driscoll to do his work. On the other hand, God has made it clear that the qualifications to lead the body of Christ are steep. It is better to pay attention to God’s demands than Driscoll’s apologies.
The letter is clearly his own personal plea for attention to the matter that his family has been hurt, he has lost confidence in his own church, and the process in his opinion was not followed correctly. He obviously believes his methods were God honoring, and that how the others (the ones left to pick up the pieces along the way) tried to mitigate the carnage he created,…. left him and his family damaged instead.
I’m no different than Mark when it comes to pride. Pride leaves no prisoners.
Bill and Charles, you said it well and I totally agree.
Hi Debbie; I think Driscoll confirmed the point amply when he appeared on his mega-Buddy conference stage the other night, and allowed mega-Buddy to extol, exonerate and elevate him to Holy-Virgin type territory. J. D. Hall over at Pulpit and Pen nailed every pertinent aspect of this ongoing debacle with clarity and precision. This is faster than even I expected, and worse. A word-of-Faith apostate brandishing Driscoll on the stage like a two-dollar whistle. Reminds me of a phrase used by the prolific abortionist, NARAL founder turned Roman Catholic pro-life advocate Bernard Nathanson, as the title for an article in the New England Journal of Medicine:
“Deeper Into Abortion”
The immense irony of this title is that it is apt in this context, but Nathanson, who confessed an uneasy conscience at the thought he may have presided at 69,000 deaths, was beginning to think he was wrong, and admitted so publicly!
(Dr Bernard Nathanson: abortion activist and historian
In November 1974, Nathanson published an article entitled “Deeper into Abortion “, in the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine. )
The guy steps down from Pastor of the church his been at for 18 years and you think its not genuine?
Reading the letter along with the stepping down tells me he still has some learning and soul searching to do Tyler.
I don’t see anything where he takes responsibility for all the pain he caused. Read William Thorton’s post below, it’s more like a bailing out of a crumbling church than a resignation for wrong doing.
Tyler, Unfortunately “stepping down” may not be the best way to characterize this situation. When someone brings an accusation against an Elder, it is never a matter of hearsay and the accusation must be dealt with openly, and immediately. I’m sure that is plenty of sin to be spread around the room at Mars Hill, yet these matters are best dealt with in the open air, and quickly. It appears that in 1996 there was a consensus on how to evangelize within the church Mark organized, and then coined later as a movement. When you have a consensus that strays from the clear qualifications of how a man leads within the church, you end up with more of a political movement. Politics always ends up distorting the fabric of the church.
One writer characterized Mars Hill like this early on….”Mars Hill members talk about sex, drink alcohol, get tattoos, and swear. They listen to Fleet Foxes; they love Star Wars and graffiti art. They also believe homosexuality is a sin, men are meant to lead, and wives must submit to their husbands as the church submits to God. Mars Hill is part of a movement of “emerging churches” struggling to keep Christian faith relevant in the postmodern world.”
Relevance to cultural traditions along with political expediency spells disaster for the bride. The bride must be encouraged to look well beyond the relevance and politics. Mark’s political experiment was doomed to failure from the beginning, even though some will argue that many great things came out of “it”, and that now his own family is damaged. What the church must remember though, is that the good that escaped “it” and returns to Jesus,…is a merciful blessing of our Lord.
I am the biggest news junkie in the world. I like to know what is going on and expressing my opinion. However I think the best thing we can do at this point is the let MD have a little privacy to work out the issues in his life. Every blog in the civilized world is dealing with this and while I am in the middle of it I am beginning to think it is not right. Right now he does not need media attention.
I’ve long appreciated Mark Driscoll and many aspects of his ministry. I’ve never been under any impression that he is or was perfect, always made the best choices, or was a model to follow in every way. Any ministry you respect from a distance, there’s always the hope that behind the scenes there’s as much godliness and Christ-likeness as you see “on stage”. It’s obvious there were big problems here and that Driscoll didn’t do enough to make himself accountable and address them.
The problems probably aren’t as bad as his detractors make him sound, nor as small as he imagines them to be. After some time away, and in a ministry where his faults and struggles are better known and accounted for, he will have an opportunity to continue in ministry with greater effectiveness. We should all hope for that and rejoice if and when it happens.
Amen, Brent!
The problems probably aren’t as bad as his detractors make him sound
I think you are wrong on this statement Brett. I think he should have resigned long before this.
This isn’t an ordinary resignation. His church is crumbling. He bails. Financial questions have been raised. More disclosure will be made on this, post-Driscoll. Key leaders have quit, others have pointed to serious deficiencies. The level of scrutiny MH and MD receive is quite intense and some watchers are fed a steady stream of inside information. Indications are that a considerable financial settlement will be made.
Thank God for the ordinary, highly committed, average pastor who just serves the Lord without drama and scandal. Give us more of those and less celebrity megapastors.
Yes sir… I have seen this movie many times. Same old scenario.
Give us more of those and less celebrity megapastors.
Exactly
“Thank God for the ordinary, highly committed, average pastor who just serves the Lord without drama and scandal. Give us more of those and less celebrity megapastors.”
Amen, Brother Thornton! All that glitters is not gold.
If every pastor resigned when someone thought they should, the average tenure would probably be around 12 minutes.
With that stated, your opinion is noted.
Most certainly Brent.
I think this old article from Tim Challies site hits the nail on the head.
http://www.challies.com/articles/character-is-king?utm_content=bufferac03b&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer
I hope Dave might consider actually pointing other folks to it. I think anyone who has kept up with Driscoll’s antics knows there are some things in the letter that are cause for caution – like the fact that he doesn’t seem to understand that character is a qualification for ministry. The pastor is to be above reproach among non-believers, not to mention his own flock. I think it’s pretty clear you no longer meat that qualification when your church members are filing charges against you.
All that said, I don’t want to imply we shouldn’t pray for Mark and his family. I just think we need to assess our own hearts carefully and be sure we let this improve our own understanding of the biblical qualifications of the pastor.
Bob: Yep.
” … character is a qualification for ministry.”
When you start your own thing, hand-pick your leadership team, and remove/shun elders who raise concerns, who qualifies you for ministry?
Driscoll used to be one of my ministry heroes. I listened to his podcasts, watched his videos on youtube and read his books. A little over 2 years ago I became very disillusioned with him following some statements that were dysfunctional and misogynistic. Nothing stings quite like losing a hero. I can remember unfollowing him on facebook and feeling disappointed in his direction.
Here is what I learned from that experience and what is happening at Mars Hill now: I could be like Mark Driscoll. I am not perfect. I have a prideful side and could very easily fall into some temptation that would rock my ministry and ability to reach others with the Gospel of Christ. I am extremely capable of totally disappointing the people God has appointed me to minister to.
I pray that if I ever find myself in any sort of similar situation I would step down long before it reached the point it did at Mars Hill. I pray that I would have the wisdom to realize I might have disqualified myself from ministry (but not from serving God). I am vulnerable.
My biggest concern in all of this is that Driscoll might try to get involved in leadership again too soon. Sometimes we need a season of healing and mentoring and growing closer to God. I’m going to pray that he will take advantage of that. I’m going to pray that I stay very aware of my vulnerabilities and don’t fall into similar traps.
Randy
I am Mark Driscoll and so are you. As a pastor how would any of us fare if our church bloomed over just a few years, we were on a national stage and debating Piers Morgan and hanging with Glenn Beck? This whole situation forces us to look at ourselves. How would we succeed, fail, sin, exemplify the Gospel in these circumstances? Certainly most of us will never face these situations but in our context we will be elevated, honored, respected, revered, cursed, hated and we as ministers must diminish that Christ may increase. Much easier said then done.
Mark like all of us has positives, negatives, strengths and flaws. My his situation and that of his church be a sobering call to every pastor to draw closer to God and stay as close to Him as we can. May we never think that just because his church is a “mega-church” and he is a “celebrity” that we couldn’t been in the same boat one day.
So Tom, hanging around big names caused Mark to treat people like a dictator? To blame others for his problems?
I am not Mark Driscoll and neither are other ministers. To say that is to not only shift the severity of this but it’s simply not true. I am so tired of the “there for the Grace of God go I” syndrome. Character is important, treating those in one’s congregation like human beings and not sheep who need your every word and need to obey without question is simply not who I am, never has been, I would say the same is true of others as well. Excuses are becoming a dime a dozen in the Christian community. So much so that I don’t want to even hear what sins the world commits because we have more than our share and worse in our own back yard.
I am not a minister btw in case anyone gets their wigs in a twist. I am however talking character among all Christians.
Debbie you maybe sick of the “there but by the grace of God go I” syndrome – Well, I am sick of a lot of things too.
Maybe we should both just learn to Live with /get over being sick of things. 😉
Tarheel: Not only is that a gross misinterpretation of scripture, it’s just another excuse why we don’t stand against wrong as a people.
Not every instance is a “There for the Grace of God go I” situation. Pedophiles in the SBC is another one. Please. Right is right and wrong is wrong. Let’s call it what it is and address it as we should. Sin is sin. But when it mistreats and abuses other people it needs to stop.
Are you going to say that about wife beaters or pedophiles or murders? All which we have had in SBC leadership “There for the Grace of God go I?”
If so, then we have worse problems in the SBC than I thought.
I hope and pray I am never able to live with things that Mark Driscoll has done to other people. I hope I am never able to live with abuse of other people. Nor will I be tolerant of such behavior. We are called to a higher standard as Christians and “There for the Grace of God go I” isn’t going to cut it.
That should be all we have had in Baptist leadership, not all were SBC.
That statement is not even in the Bible. It’s up there with God helps those who help themselves. This is what the passage says. Notice the difference of message?
But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace to me was not without effect. No, I worked harder than all of them–yet not I, but the grace of God that was with me.
Here is where that saying originates and it has nothing to do with sinning.
http://lauriecoombs.org/2013/03/14/lessons-learned-judge-not-there-but-for-the-grace-of-god-go-i/
Debbie, I have been reading your exchange and I have to wonder: do you think you are just as horrible a sinner as Mark Driscoll, or a pedophile for that matter?
I don’t quite understand how Augustine’s statement about the universal need for grace is a “gross misinterpretation of Scripture.”
I certainly believe we should hold each other accountable for walking in the light of God’s Word, but I think we become much like the Pharisees when we have a different plan for others in regard to God’s grace than we do for ourselves.
I say this as one who falls into that same pit more often than I would like. In fact, I had to pray for a man last night who molested a little girl I took care of for a number of years (along with four other classmates that we know of).
I must say, it was very difficult to pray for this man with any kind of sincerity. But, I realized that if grace matters at all, it must matter for all.
Certainly using Driscoll’s situation in the same sentence as pedophiles seems like you might not believe in the universality of God’s grace.
Jack: To be frank, no I don’t. I don’t even relate to such sin. We are more tolerant of this kind of action than we should be in the name of scripture and religion, none of which is taught in the Bible. Yet, if anyone stands against such things they are told they are wrong. There is a passage in scripture that says there are those who call right wrong and wrong right? Most say this is the world doing this, as has been demonstrated, I’m not so sure it’s the world doing it.
People have been thrown out of SBC positions for standing for others and calling wrong, wrong, yet others who actually do sin and wrong are kept in and we are told the above things. It seems kind of nuts coming from the church. At least to me.
Second: That is not Augustine’s statement if you will read the link.
Debbie
I understand your concern. I agree totally that christians are held to a standard and I would add Christian leaders are held to a higher standard and Pastors to even a higher standard.
However I would respectfully disagree that this is an SBC problem. It is a local church problem and a local pastor problem. Every time a pastor fails in any way it is a local church and pastor problem.
We are different than the Roman Catholics in that the convention has no control over the local pastor. Each pastor is accountable to his own congregation and the church that ordained him.
I will admit I am being a little “picky” but the difference is worth noting. It would be an SBC problem if the SBC failed to act, but since the convention has no power or authority it cannot fail to act because it cannot act.
Jack, it’s pretty obvious that Debbie does not see herself as a sinner. And if she does see herself as such she certainly thinks that she is not as bad of one as people that she don’t like. That as you know my friend is her misunderstanding/misrepresentation of Scripture.
“But for the grace of God, go I” may come from John Bradford, but “Let anyone who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall” comes from the Apostle Paul.
Debbie, thank you for your frank, though erring, view in regard to grace. You speak often of what the Bible says, but I see very little textual evidence you actually give.
I know of only a few verses that would speak of persons for whom grace no longer has efficacy. Judas, who was a son of perdition from the beginning would be one. Reprobates mentioned in Romans 1 would be another.
However, Judas is what is referred to as a sui generus (one of a kind) so that would not apply to pedophiles.
So, you must be referring to Romans 1 and deducing from that passage that a pedophile becomes a reprobate and therefore no longer has an opportunity to be saved. I know of no scholar who makes that argument. Perhaps you could share more of how you came to that conclusion.
The fact that you believe your sin is less egregious to God than that of another would make be think you believe in salvation by works and that unbelief is not the unpardonable sin, but those sins that are on some list you have.
Certainly you have company when you say, “I am glad I am not like that sinner.” I think you know what company that would put you in.
You definitely are a person that “grinds the ax.” I get it that you have some deep hurt in your life that you just can’t let go–I seem to recall you sharing that a while back.
What I do not really know is if you really believe that you are better than other sinners, or you just are too stubborn to back away from a grudge you are carrying.
Perhaps I asked the question in a way that painted you in a corner. I did not mean to do that. Perhaps a better question would be: does grace apply equally to Driscolls, pedophiles, murders or any other sin you might choose, or are there some sins that just cannot be forgiven?
Perhaps that’s a better question to help avoid you be attributed with holding a view you actually do not hold.
Debbie
“wigs in a twist”…that’s a new one for me, I like it.
As one (you) who is not a minister, I can see how you might misunderstand what a minister is saying about those in ministry.
I do believe you took Tom’s words and twisted hem to say something he did not say.
Jon: I understand what Tom is saying Jon. You don’t have to be a minister to get it. He is saying that anyone has the potential to become what Mark Driscoll has become in being dictatorial, abusing both staff and his congregation, plagiarizing, lying, portraying sex as filthy, and women as objects to be taken down a notch or two, not taking responsibility for his actions and becoming the victim.
I am saying, No that is not true. I cannot relate to such behavior and neither can many in ministry. Now unfortunately there are many in ministry who have had affairs, been guilty of hiding pedophiles or being one and those are also things I cannot wrap my mind around. So again I would disagree. I guess I’m in the Bob Newhart school of thought. “Just stop it.” “Quit doing it”.
The problem from my viewpoint is that if we put the label Christian or Southern Baptist on it, we buy into it, promote it and put a ribbon on it. We need to be more discerning as the body of Christ. We have the Holy Spirit in us to tell us when something is not right as well as the written word.
The world gets it, they can spot a fake a mile away, we should be even more diligent in spotting fakes and then stopping the fake. We aren’t. It’s that simple from where I sit.
Debbie,
I admit I am not obsessed about MD and what he has done but I have only heard a few of the things you mentioned. Not saying I needed to know but are you assuming any and all who make comment are making them based upon all you know or what they know?
Maybe it would be good to know where the person you are attacking, in words, is coming from before you castigate them for something they may not have information of.
I agree with you, in the context of what you write. I do not think you were trying to say, but by the grace of God there go I, as some want to call you out for.
As a pastor, I understand what you are saying and agree.
As one that has not kept up with what has happened at Mark Driscoll’s church, I noticed in his letter of resignation that nothing was brought against him in any way. Can someone explain this, or is he being falsely accused of something he didn’t do? Is a brother being unfairly beaten? Are rumors floating around where there should be no rumors? If guilty, why were there not any charges filed, and why didn’t his accusers show up at the meeting and state their grievances.
Debbie Kaufman,
I think some of these ministers would do well to listen to you.
Debbie was right on about Driscoll long before he was ousted from Acts 29 and his exit from Mars Hill. She spoke often of his abuse of authority and lack of ministerial character.
Max
I hear what you are saying, however, There were many many other people besides Debbie who recognized his shenanigans etc. This is not to be interpreted as taking anything away from Debbie’s astuteness. Just a fact
It is a fact DL, you are correct. It is how I became aware of just how deep this went. I questioned his statements and teaching, not knowing about the abuse and firings at Mars Hill.
Debbie
Everyone looks at this from their own perspective I suspect. As a Director of Missions that works with small struggling churches and church plants in the pioneer area of Montana, every time anything like this from mega churches hits the news it makes it harder for our men in their ministries. For me that is a major tragedy. But as I say that is from my perspective. Bottom line regardless of who is wrong or right the cause of Christ is hindered when these things happen. So sad.
No sin is excusable, ever. But we are in trouble when we start thinking we are not capable of certain sins, if the circumstances were different. I tried to turn the conversation way from MD specifically into a conversation about the cult of celebrity that exists both in the SBC and evangelicalism as a whole. At the root of it is pride. MD obviously has a problem with pride. I say that without fear of contradiction because MD is a human being. MD has a problem with pride, just as I do, just a you do. The problem with celebratizing someone is that we feed their pride. As I said earlier, the alcoholic is responsible for their own sin, but by making people celebrities, we are essentially handing them the bottle.
Amen, Bill to everything you said.
Bill, you make a good point. Over the forty years of my ministry I have had many people attack me for not being “qualified” to pastor a church. Sometimes their attacks are justified at least in part, but most often they simply don’t like some change they perceive I am making. Often, I am attacked for what people think a might possible do in the future. In fact, just happened a couple weeks ago.
Here’s the problem I have with that: I agree with them for the most part. Hardly a day goes by that I do not confess to God that I have not been a great minister. My church struggles to grow. We struggle to pay our bills. People have needs that I simply run out of time trying to get to. I want to love more. I want to accomplish more. I want to be a “great” pastor–but, I have feet of clay.
I am not a fan of Driscoll, but I bet I’ve made many of the same mistakes he has, and perhaps avoided some he didn’t. I don’t condone his actions. Frankly, from what he has admitted, I think he would be disqualified to lead a church. I’m sure he has enough money to live on. I’m sure he will get another position and go on. I pray he learns from his mistakes and has a wonderful life.
I can’t pile on Driscoll because I am no better. It grieves me to say this, but that’s how it is. I am an easy target because I have little to offer in my defense when people attack me, whether their motives are pure or not.
It may be a copout as Debbie suggests but I must echo the sentiment often attributed to Augustine, and not likely first proposed by Bradford, “There but for the grace of God go I.”
I have never been a fan of MD. And I am not saying we can’t judge him because we are sinners ourselves. There is plenty of public evidence to make a judgement. I am not at all suggesting we are responsible for his sin. I’m saying that we do people no favors by making them celebrities. Monsters don’t become celebrities; celebrities become monsters. (I don’t mean that as harsh as it sounds, you get the idea) We should learn from this, but I doubt we will.
As I said, Bill, I don’t think by his own admissions that he is good for leadership. That is my judgment. It would take a lot of convincing to get me to vote for him as my pastor.
Though, I do leave the door open because it is God’s door, not mine.
Sadly, I think you are right–I doubt we will learn.
“Monsters don’t become celebrities; celebrities become monsters.”
In the case of Driscoll, he was a macho potty-mouth preacher who became a celebrity by displaying that “gift” in the pulpit … and that is a sad commentary on the condition of the church which endorsed and followed him for so many years. Long before Driscoll became “resurgent”, he was an “emergent” celebrity. He knows how to reinvent himself. It truly is my prayer that the new and improved Driscoll we may see again in ministry becomes so on the other side of a godly sorrow which worketh repentance.
Max,
If you read some of the stories at the WeLoveMarsHill website, there’s at least one there that says that MD started out softer and more academic, and then turned uber-macho later on.
Bill Mac – It could be that Driscoll started out as soft and academic and somewhere along the line decided that approach wouldn’t yield “mega” or sell books. The secondary point I was trying to make beyond the “macho” reference is that there is a segment of folks who are attracted to such church antics and that needs to change. Some pulpits have stretched “culturally-relevant” beyond Biblical proportion. Unfortunately, there are several Driscollites in my area who are mimicking his method and message in an attempt to be mega on their end. Bottom-line is that Dricoll’s character flaws cost him his ministry for the time being. God never gives big assignments to little characters and He will take away what you think you have. But, as others have pointed out on this blog piece, restoration is always possible on the other side of genuine repentance. I hope Driscoll chooses that route, rather than trying to come up with some new gimmick.
Bill Mac
I think you make a salient point. Many of the “celebrity pastors” started out as good solid Godly pastors. However when there is a constant barrage of ego feeding, sexual temptation, unabated praise and the like it turns men into something that becomes dishonoring to God and the church. The is not to say that this is an excuse. But unless such a man stays close to the Lord he is on his way to a failing.
Let me make another point. Those of us who are “ordinary” pastors (whatever that may be) often take offense at those who criticize us or talk about our shortcomings or in general give us problems. However, those “trouble makers” may be doing us a service because it keeps us humble and on our knees before our heavenly Father. Maybe that “trouble making” deacon actually serves a purpose. Note I said “maybe”. I would not want to die on that statement.
DL, I agree with you more than you agree with yourself. I would remove the maybe from your assertion. Nearly every criticism has a kernel of truth, and those who point out the negatives of what we are doing may or may not do so with the right motives, but they are usually noticing SOMETHING, not nothing.
Recieving criticism without alienating people is something that reveals character, and builds it.
andy
you make a good point. in thinking about this, I cannot remember a time when I was taught/instructed/mentored in how to personally react to criticism in a way that would help me grow.
“Many of the “celebrity pastors” started out as good solid Godly pastors. However when there is a constant barrage of ego feeding, sexual temptation, unabated praise and the like it turns men into something that becomes dishonoring to God and the church. The is not to say that this is an excuse. But unless such a man stays close to the Lord he is on his way to a failing.”
I agree with this statement in its entirety, the only modification I would proffer for your consideration is;
Delete the word “celebrity”.
I say this because as much as “we” have a certain disposition toward a group mentality that elevates some pastors to celebrity status…. it seems to me that “we” also a disposition toward group mentality of lumping them all together and somewhat enjoy their downfalls (or at least seeming to).
I put “we” in quotes because obviously not all of us fall into both or either category but it seems that many do…and I see one tendency as being as detrimental as the other. Am I making any sense?
…and your caution is one that is good for ALL of us.
DL, thank you for recognizing that I make a good when I agree with you 🙂
Seriously, I do remember occasional mentions about it in some of my seminary classes (2006-2010), that we need to receive criticism with an open mind…
Of course, I was also hearing, to varying degrees, from various places, a lot about strong pastoral leadership, reforming (fixing )churches, etc…some of which did not emphasize the servant aspect of the pastor ate as much as the “leader who saves the day.”
Tarheel
Good proffer. You are absolutely correct. In the back of my mind I think I used the word “celebrity” because we tend to think that they were egotistical, money hungry deceivers from the start. While I suspect some were driven by ego, fame and money from the beginning I believe many were not.
You are correct about our rejoicing in their fall and that is tragic. God forgive us.
What is tragic and should be met with a cry of “God forgive us”, is the lack of compassion toward those who were abused and hurt by Mark Driscoll personally .
Well, since I don’t know (and I presume most others here don’t either) any of those victims you speak of – – maybe all the time you’ve spent bashing Mark Driscoll at every turn and telling us what “we as a denomination” should do about this non SBCer has not been well spent?
Debbie
Must we choose between the two. Could there not be enough compassion to go around for all who were hurt in this fiasco and still cry God forgive us for rejoicing in the fall of a man. From the Cross flows an abundance of grace. From the Christian should there not flow an abundance of compassion.
DL: When someone is unrepentant, and restoration simply means putting them behind another pulpit in another venue or denomination and repackaging them with no sincere change or repentance, I have sympathy for the victims whom that unrepentant minister left on the road. Most are bleeding, bruised, emotionally and may never heal.
Debbie
I do not disagree with what you are saying. We have had far to many hurt people in the Christian fellowship by erring pastors. We also have a string of hurting pastors because of the unrepentant actions of church members that hurt and dismiss pastor after pastor.
However, I must stand by my point. When it comes to grace, compassion and forgiveness we do not have to choose one or the other. Again I say the blood that flows from the cross is capable of covering all sin of all the ages. I say lets pray for all involved in the fiasco at MH and other such places and let God do what only He can, in His sovereignty, do.
Should we hold the erring pastor or member accountable? Of course we should! Should we pass the erring unrepentant pastor on from church to church? Of course not! Is it reasonable that the larger Christian community expect repentance from erring pastors/members? I think it is.
However, when we sit thousands of miles away and all we know is what we read on the blog or Christian “tabloids” I think we must exercise a great deal of wisdom and a little less condemnation.
We disagree on this Debbie, however I do respect you opinions and tenacity in seeking truth.
Monsters also become celebrities. I would say more times than they don’t. Cruel behavior or outlandish behavior doesn’t just appear. Most have certain guidelines they won’t go past. I did when I was blogging and left not regretting anything I had written.
Many have left the spotlight for a less reaching ministry, more quiet ministry. They left with their integrity in tact, not having treated people badly, nor have they plagiarized, even after writing many books and articles, because they were Christ driven, not money driven, celebrity driven.
I question non-repentance. I question those who do cross the line, yet portray themselves as victims.
It’s amusing that it is offered that MD is like any one of us. It’s also silly. Any one of us would have been fired long ago summarily for any of a number of his actions, and that without the estimated one year severance pay and benefits (sources indicate well above a half million).
I’ve read enough of Debbie’s stuff to see that she understands grace but also the grimy underbelly of authoritarian, unaccountable clergy.
There will surely be more revelations to come on this.
William: I think you’re missing my point. We aren’t like MD right now. My point is that any of us could become MD, given the same circumstances. You don’t think celebrity status would change us? Perhaps we aren’t authoritarian now, but it is hubris to think that we couldn’t become so if we suddenly found ourselves tracing the same path that MD did.
“Brethren, even if [a]anyone is caught in any trespass, you who are spiritual, restore such a one in a spirit of gentleness; each one looking to yourself, so that you too will not be tempted.”
” For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.”
Amen and amen Les
Triple Amen Les. Yes, yes, yes Amen.
Thank you William.
William T
I think we all understand the “grimy underbelly”. It is hard to miss. However that is not the point of the issue. The point is how must we respond in a way that is Biblical, helpful, positive, and God honoring. That is what we need to understand. I am not a MD fan by a long shot. In fact I turned him off the very firs time I heard him. He is down now for the count. I see nothing to be gained by continuing too kick him. Whether or not he will continue in ministry I do not know. But this I do know. There is no church in the civilized world that would not know what they are getting if they decide to call him in the future. They don’t need a letter from me detailing his mistakes and sin.
I wish MD well in every sense of the word.
There are lessons and warnings for church leaders and church leadership in all of this:
1. Mature, discipled, strong AND empowered lay leadership in the church is an absolute necessity.
2. Any church polity that puts too much power in the hands of one person is bad for the church and bad for the person who holds the power.
3. All pastors need to be accountable. Not just to “the church” because many personable, persuasive leaders can actually have LESS accountability in large congregational settings. A large group cannot know all that is going on. Large groups are easily swayed by THE VOICE. However your church does it – committees, elders, deacons, the pastor leads but also needs to be accountable.
4. Don’t ignore statements that seem strange. I hope this is not deemed too personal. It’s not meant to be. But I will say that if our pastor claimed that God had given him the ability to see the lustful thoughts of other people, and our pastor talked about that in his sermons, he would probably be terminated very quickly and also referred for psychological or psychiatric evaluation. The fact that so many Christians give this a pass on the basis that – “Well, who’s to say it’s not true?” and “We shouldn’t put God in a box.” or some such similar thinking are enablers for bad things, and for the lampooning of the Gospel.
Any leader who claims supernatural powers or abilities should be placed in time out on the first offense.
5. “Criminal activity, immorality and heresy” are not the only qualities that make one unfit for pastoral service. These are included, but we focus on these exclusively to our peril. Read your NT. Learn from common experience. Pugnaciousness, love of money or power, lack of wisdom, pride, spiritual or emotional abuse of others etc. are equally destructive and equally deserving to be disqualifiers from the ministry given the totality of circumstances.
For us, this is a time of reflection.
For MD and his family (especially his children who are watching all of this – and have watched it over the years – what must they think about what church is or is supposed to be?), I hope it is a time of love and healing.
Sad situation. A few thoughts spring to mind:
1. I can be guilty of giving a pass to rebellion in the name of both freshness and authenticity. But my basic view is that there are zero perfect men who are pastors and trying to idolize them is bad for them and for us.
2. The heart and soul of pastoring isn’t the pulpit. It’s pastoral care. A great pastor tends sheep and what happens in the pulpit ought to be enhanced by the trust the pastor engenders through the WHOLE pastoral ministry. I won’t claim that charismatic men (not “charismatic Christians”) are either more or less effective because of the presence in the pulpit. They probably are more effective. But the pastoral ministry should have a double blessing of the exact same fruit of the Spirit that every single one of us ought to exhibit.
3. The tone of his letter is a part of his perception problem: there is zero willingness to admit any form of wrongdoing that he has been accused of. Any pastor that feels that way about people he interacts with conveys disdain. Maybe he is truly above the fray behaviorally. Don’t really know, don’t really care. But in a resignation letter is the perfect time to admit the actual imperfections rather than deflect all the accusations and referring to being a generic imperfect pastor. He’s made his reputation on “authenticity”. That wasn’t authentic.
As to the rest of it? I try to be careful to not tie my expectations of God’s success to any one man or any one woman. I don’t believe God’s plan will fail because of us and neither will it succeed because of any one of us. But the opportunity to participate is a stunning show of God’s Redemptive Grace: that we who were once sinners could become the central participants in the ministry of the Gospel to those who have not yet crossed the line of faith. While that is a glorious idea, it’s much more glorious when it is a reality and every last one of us can participate as much as we are willing–with the power and blessing of the Holy Spirit–in making it reality.
Some of us will fall down as we minister the Gospel. Some of those will be vocational pastors. We should pray for all of our leaders and shoulder the yoke alongside them specifically so they will not lose heart and sin. It might, in fact, be our most critical ministry to do both of those things. And it comes with a promise: that we will experience the height and the depth and the breadth of God’s Love being extended to new believers. After all, ALL of heaven rejoices when one person is saved.
There are a number of problems involved in this discussion which might be relieved, if the participants had a better grasp on the nature of human development, sort of an age state situation. One is the age of MD, having to do with the fact of his being in his 40s. My sister summed it up so well, “the know it all forties.” It does seem like the folks reaching their 40s these days are having trouble with that attitude. Can it be the result of delayed development (my experience of that attitude came in my late 20s)? How much of this is natural development and/or educational and experience environment? I suggest that anytime there is not form of accountability to someone else or unless the individual has a strong sense of inner commitment that will prevent him or her from violating the dictates of scripture for ministerial conduct, then there is a likelihood of a failure. Another issue is the ability to keep open one’s sense of what the Bible inculcates. While we have approaches specified there, you will note that I used the plural, the need is to be aware of that reality. Like the fellow who is probably responsible for the way most of us think – even about God’s book today, we have a problem of recognizing the truth that sometimes the rule and the “exceptions” together constitute the truth. I have said all of that to say this: Most of the readers of this blog follow certain ways of thinking and responding, and our problems arise from the fact that we have a difficult time of seeing our short comings until we encounter the results of the way we have been responding. If the results are but a small mess or disaster, be thankful. If the results are a big disaster, and you manage to survive be thankful in the highest degree. And please remember MD’s problems can become yours, perhaps on a smaller scare unless you have a big church or charge, so learn caution and compassion. The two, caution and compassion, are really a part of ministerial equipment.
Here’s a question: If I am a member of a church (whether in leadership or not) and I am found guilty of some particular sin(s), something egregious enough that I am formally charged and investigated, and I simply quit the church, have I been held accountable?
In other words, could quitting the church without submitting myself to church discipline in itself be sinful? Should we consider quitting the body to be a sign of repentance?
Found guilty by whom?
BillMac,
Could it be that said member is seeking to avoid accountability?
Could it be that the church member truly feels that while not guilty of whatever he’s been accused that he’s guilty enough in his own heart and conscience of something where he feels it’s time to move on….
Could it be that if in leaving, the member admits wrongdoing and sin and as humbly as he is able seeks to spare the church further distress by moving on?
Perhaps the answer to your hypothetical is sometimes yes, and sometimes no….it depends on a lot of factors- no?
Tarheel,
We are fallen creatures who sin thus causing distress to each other. But it is precisely in this distress that the Gospel shines the brightest.
It is in the enduring and forgiving of another’s sin and sinfulness that the Gospel speaks to a disenfranchised world and proclaims that reconciliation with a holy God is possible but only in grasping the truths of the cross.
For it is there that the Lord endured the distress of all of our sins and now is able to lavish the love of God upon His children, both the called and the yet uncalled.
And in the power of the cross the church is to extend that love to reconcile one another so as to overcome the distress sin and sinfulness brings upon us.
So while the fallen member might wish to spare the church further distress, the church should follow the lead of its shepherd and seek out the stray and restore them to the flock.
For the one who is loved the most, in return becomes the one who loves the most.
-mike
Guilty by those charged with the investigation.
Billmac,
To answer your question… NO.
Quitting is not a righteous act in this case and neither is it an act of repentance. Church discipline is meant to restore not to expel the repentant member. If you are repentant, then why quit?
If a person can’t face the people he can see, how can he face a God who he can not see? But in facing the people he can see, he also faces God in humility and confession and is cleansed.
And although he might quit in what he considers a repentance over a guilt stricken conscious, he abandons his church which is his family, and does so without cause. He is putting himself and his own concerns over those of the Body. Thus he compounds his sin and unrighteousness.
-mike
Mike,
I tend to agree with you. There is very little about this that smacks of repentance, and very much that seems like abandoning a sinking ship.
Question, Bill…
might that assessment be based on a series of presuppostions?
Plus, here I was thinking that your hypothetical was just that..an hypothetical. 😉
Tarheel: Certainly. Look, I appreciate your wanting to cut this guy some slack. One or two allegations might be waved off as disgruntled people only telling one side of the story. But when there are multiple websites dedicated to survivor stories from MH, then I think where’s there’s smoke there’s fire.
As someone else said elsewhere, when did arrogance and domineering stop being immoral?
I was replying to a hypothetical and not to any specific case.
I would imagine that every situation has a set of unique circumstances and should be addressed case by case.
It’s not so much wanting to cut slack. I understand where yall are coming from. As I have said before I have never hoped aboard the MD train…but I am not a hater either.
I see (from a distance, as most (all?) of us here do) a man who at times demonstrates traits and characteristics that make my skin crawl. I also a man who preached the gospel with great conviction and passion. I see a man who came across as brash – but I also see a man who appears to love people. I see a man who obviously lacked meaningful accountability and I have seen where multiple times, when rebuked (often by other pastors), he has publicly repented.
I see “haters” spewing vitriol and hating
I see “fans” circling the wagon and making defense
…and that is just within evangelicalism.
I personally think too much of either is not good and can lead to sin in the lives of those engaged in it.
Is it wrong to want to see true restoration and redemption through repentance? Is it bad to assume that repentance is genuine until revealed differently? I sometimes feel like the “haters” think so.
The “fans” have their problems too, certainly. Thinking/assuming/ whatever that there is absolutely nothing to see here is ludicrous…as you say a few disgruntled people here and there are one thing…but so many? There are likely some issues here.
I think this whole thing is more nuanced than it is often presented. Its easy to embrace the extreme “hater” or “Fan” motif…and as I said…that itself will likely lead to sin as well.
This has been a lively discussion in which I have participated. But the more I think of it, what is the point? We are giving unsolicited advice and opinions. Bottom line…this is between MH and MD and those who were “hurt”. This type of thing happens evry day in churches. Pastors get fired, asked to resign, or resign under duress. Many pastors are dictators. Many pastors are less than compassionate to their people. I have dealt with this very same thing in small churches in small towns with unheard of pastors. It is just as serious there as it i in MH. I guess when you are a celebrity everyone wants to put in their two cents worth. In the situation I described no one even knew outside the church. I really have no point to make I just wanted to say that.
Those are excellent and valid points, DL!
Its one of the things i have been trying to say….in the rush to hold up this fiasco as another shot across the bow regarding “celebrity/mega church pastors” people seem to have forgotten that, as you have said, this is – whatever it actually is – SADLY nothing new and not unique to MH or MD.
There are a number of differences in MH/MD and the regular church problem situations. While not unique to MH, they are almost never found in churches like ours or clergy like thee and me. This makes MD and not us newsworthy.
What problems are those that manifest themselves in “mega churches” or with “celebrity pastors” and almost never with smaller churches or with clergy like me and thee?
I would agree scaling is different…but the problems (and the root of them) themselves?
Governance, certain income streams, and the celebrity factor with concomitant public exposure. Sure, you can make generic categories for everyone’s sins.
You’re missing my point, William.
It’s more “public” but the realities Are the same – the realities of the issues are the same – is just a scaling difference
I’m not missing it. I think your reductionism ignores the obvious differences. Why don’t you write the article about a colleague who was forced out with a 30 day severance.
Severances are given all the time- I said scaling is different.
My point is that underlying issues are the same.
William….I gotta admire your use of the word concomitant. I had to look that one up. 🙂
To be if help to others I’ll link the definition!
http://i.word.com/idictionary/concomitant
re: “almost never” with small churches. Sorry, but you could not be more off the mark.
William T
What make these “newsworthy” is the fact that we like supermarket tabloid stories more that we want to admit. Of course we wrap our comments in things like “we need to pray” or “we need to have compassion”, but bottom line people like to get into the personal lives of celebrities whether it be a preacher, rock star or movie idol. We especially like it if it is “juicy”. To be sure most of what we have heard about MD is juicy. Case in point…I have not followed MD’s ministry with any intentionality. What I know i have pick up on a blog or some such. What I know is negative, because that is what is “newsworthy”.
Now that I have said that, being “newsworthy” was not my point (as I said I am not sure I even had one). My point of reference was that in these church fiascos the hurt, disappointment etc is as strong in my small church story as it is/was at MH. I get the feeling we think if a church or pastor is large an famous somehow the hurt is stronger, or more “important”.
Not that it makes any difference, but if the ministry is tabloid worthy, the fallout is as well. It’s quite a stretch to call any of this personal.
I’m far more concerned about the regular guy who doesn’t have a long period of paid leave then a $500k+ Sum to assuage the loss.
William T
I guess I am confused about what is being said. You last paragraph is my point. I totally agree. I am saying that we make must ado about the mage church situations when the smaller church situations are as bad emotionally, and worse financially.
Elaborate please on first paragraph, not sure I understand what you are saying.
I am responding to your comment at 6:06, where you say there are differences between large church and regular church…
DL–
One of the best comments I have read in a long time!
Mary Ann
DL–
My comment somehow landed in the wrong place. It referred to what you said at 7:18 pm.
Mary Ann
DL, you asked about my reference to MH being a “tabloid worthy” church. I mean by that, that Driscoll and the church were deliberately, pointedly, aggressively public through social media and other PR methodologies. He wrote provocative books, the church paid for promotion of the same, and he reveled in pulpit statements and antics. Even some of the leadership and interpersonal relationship stuff was publicly disseminated. Tabloid stuff. It is hardly surprising that there were and are critics outside the church who followed this and reacted to it.
Well said, and thank-you. Because Mark Driscoll is in my face and those of my Christian friends everywhere, and puts himself on every table, he puts himself in every mind and makes himself everyone’s business. He has deliberately set out to make himself a meta-pastor, someone whom everyone must contend with. There is no special pleading here – and the sheer volume of special pleading here is stomach-churning – that can make that go away.
William T
Thank you for the clarification.
I’m just glad that he didn’t apologize for his wrong actions with a “I’m sorry I broke a rule but I will stand before God justified in my actions ” or “it doesn’t matter that I did the wrong thing it just matters that I did it for the right reason.”
Maybe those comments would’ve got him a little more support. 😉
Tarheel
to quote a friend of mine, Bwahahahaha….or something like that
😉
When does the flow of information… constant reminding others of another’s evils… the pounding of how ungodly, unfit for service they are… and so on and son become too much talk to little grace and becomes dishonoring to God?
From my reading here it seems like MD is not the only one who has an anger… I am right you are wrong… to much vividness spoken… problem.
Are we helping the matter or making our own black mark on the Kingdom agenda?
Reporting information is one thing, continual harping and making sure we get heard and are agreed with becomes a turn off.
Yet, here I am adding to the conversation. Give me a drive through (referring to a NASCAR penalty for speeding on pit road) and deduct 25 points.
Jon
Are you saying the caution flag should go out?
Maybe the red flag. Just my thoughts. Sometimes I feel like I am reading about the antichrist instead of a soul Christ died for.
Jon
Your point is valid. Back in my teenage years on the near north side of St Louis when we got guy down we didn’t kick him. I never thought there could be a lesson learned from those years.
A lot has been said, perhaps we have said enough.
Hang in Jon some day we will see the checkered flag and then we will spend our time praising the risen savior.
There are no anti-Christs. At least not that many; certainly none that any SBC pastor need concern himself with, no Lifeway-promoted books, teachers, no touring apostates at whose feet thousands of women grovel weekly, prophetesses “hearing from God”…. just all harmless wampeters, foma and granfalloons. (Kurt Vonnegut, 1974)
Keep waving your hands. This will all go away soon.
Chris
Say what?
Good grief.
Debbie
“Good grief” in reference to what?
Tarheel,
I deleted your comment. That’s not gonna help either discussion, my friend.
Now my curiosity is up!
Guess I deserved it.
No problem.
Hopefully both UNC Football and Basketball will also get deleted with the death penalty. Eighteen years of academic fraud deserves it.
i expect to soon see further firings and corrections implemented as the results of UNC’s full, voluntary, No stone unturned, self investigation are quite damning – I’m a bit disappointed to say the least.
Sham of a major propped up by 2 or 3 people steering students (atheletes and non) toward chump classes is absolutely unacceptable. That’s why people are going to jail.
I was glad to read in the actual report that head basketball coach Roy Williams expressed much concerned about the major and put an end to it in the basketball program way back in the mid 2000s right after he came.
It’s old news about the football team they’ve already been punished and Fedora is trying to clean it up and win a few games without scholarship players.
UNC BB may be shown to not be as clean as you say. The report says that while enrollment in these paper classes was lessened during Williams’ tenure, it did not cease entirely. Also, the report says that Dean’s head academic advisor most certainly did know about them and they did begin the spring semester of ’93. Williams is smart to vehemently deny any knowledge. He’s the one with the rings to lose. Also, yet to be seen is the level of involvement by the women’s soccer team.
I’m no tarheel fan, but it’s sad to see this tarnish tobacco road.
The only implication of Williams is that he “expressed concerns about the major to UNC officials” and “reduced its use among his players”.
The school should have never offered the sham program but I’m not sure there’s much he (Roy) could have done other than what he did to stop it. The academic higher ups allowed and encouraged this sham.
I can’t even begin to tell how disappointed I’d be if it comes out that he was heavily involved in this.