Confession time – many of you have followed the events in Ferguson, Missouri, a lot more carefully than I have. I have followed the story but not delved into every eyewitness report or followed the debates closely. I did, however, follow the news coverage Monday and watched the St. Louis County DA’s press conference. I have a few opinions and observations that I’d like to proffer for your consideration.
It is with great trepidation that I wade into this quagmire. Racial issues can be explosive, even on a Baptist blog. But here’s my take.
1) Justice was done in St. Louis County.
I saw several interviews today with family members and friends of Michael Brown, with community leaders and others who demanded that “justice be done.” It was clear that when they said, “Let justice be done,” what they really meant was “Officer Darren Wilson has to be indicted.” They defined justice according to the outcome. They were, of course, disappointed and even angered by the fact that the grand jury returned a “no true bill” decision.
I have no idea exactly what happened on the street that morning. It seems clear to me that Michael Brown could have made some different choices and he might still be alive. Perhaps he was a victim, but he was not without culpability in the tragedy. He could have and should have done things differently. Still, I wonder if Officer Wilson could have handled this in such a way that he would not have had to use deadly force to protect himself. I am not a police officer and I don’t know what he went through, but were his actions absolutely necessary?
But justice was done in St. Louis County. Justice is not about getting the outcome you want, but about a fair process being followed. It appears that all of the evidence was given to the grand jury, every witness was heard from, and great care was taken to try to do the right thing. The grand jury, after an arduous process of examination, decided that Officer Wilson had reasonable cause to use deadly force.
It would have been unjust if witnesses were excluded or evidence was ignored. It would have been unjust if a predetermined outcome had been fixed. It would have been unjust if the grand jury had listened to public opinion and press pressure and rendered a verdict based on that. But the evidence I’ve seen, to this point at least, is that they examined the evidence comprehensively and rendered their decision carefully.
That is justice. Justice is having your day in court, having the evidence heard, having a fair jury render an impartial verdict. Justice is not simply demanding that the government or the justice system do what you want.
We ought not be too quick to substitute our own judgment (based on our opinions and the limited evidence we have seen) for the judgment of those who have seen all the evidence.
2) This problem is about a lot more than one tragedy in Ferguson.
For the family and friends of Michael Brown, this is about the loss of one young man they loved, but for most people this is about a lot more than this situation. Some look at the situation and see abuse of power and racial injustice while others look at the same situation and see lawlessness and violence.
Our views on this situation tend to reflect our macro-views of racial issues in America. The facts of the case take a back seat to our passionately-held views of racial issues. The DA laid out a pretty compelling case that the evidence did not support charging Officer Wilson with a crime. The jurors spent months meticulously reviewing all the evidence in the case and rendered their decision. But there is such suspicion and lack of trust in the system that many people simply did not trust their decision.
That leads to the third point.
3) The Ferguson tragedy reveals the racial issues that still exist in America.
There has been progress in America on racial issues in recent years, and there has been progress in the SBC as well. But if you think we’ve solved our racial problems, all you need to do is look and listen to the coverage of the Ferguson tragedy.
Many African-Americans see a system of pervasive discrimination, believe the deck is stacked against them in the halls of justice and are frustrated at the pace of progress. Many white people tend to see race-baiting and blame-shifting and are frustrated about being called racists for their views and opinions on issues.
Race is still a quagmire in America…still.
4) Whites must seek to understand why blacks feel the way they do.
I am not a racist, but I do benefit from being a white person in America. I’ve never been pulled over by police because I’m in the wrong part of town with the wrong skin color. I’ve never been refused service at a restaurant because of my race. I’ve never been suspected of a crime for being a white guy. These are constant realities in the lives of black people, especially young black men, in America.
By the way, most of the scenarios I mentioned happened in Sioux City in recent years, to a deacon in my church, a man of dignity, gentleness, and grace. In the months before his death, he told me stories of things that happened to him in Sioux City, Iowa – not exactly a Klan hotspot. Racial profiling, discrimination and injustice are still real in America.
We, the white majority, need to realize that we do have certain privileges that are ours because of our race. The playing field is not completely level. Black people have a completely different experience in America than we do and it is incumbent on us to attempt to understand it.
Here is my thesis on racial issues:
The racial situation in America today is the result of centuries of white oppression, discrimination and dehumanizing treatment of black people. Though our forefathers caused this, not us, it is right and just for us to lead out in correcting it. Black people ought not have to demand justice, we ought to do all we can to give it!
5) Let Baptists be the leaders in racial reconciliation.
It is no surprise to anyone that the Southern Baptist Convention does not have a proud history in terms of racial issues. The defense of slavery was at the root of the founding of our convention. For more than a century after the elimination of slavery in America, Southern Baptists continued to practice discrimination, segregation and racism, and gave spiritual cover to despicable acts.
To deny that these things happened is to seek to revise history. Yes, there were voices among us calling for racial reconciliation, but the simple fact is that in far too many churches, we tolerated the intolerable – Southern Baptists were too often part of the problem.
We’ve owned that and repented of it. We’ve taken some significant steps in racial reconciliation. But as Southern Baptists resisted racial justice in previous generations, we must be leaders in it in the future. Let’s make it our goal to root out every vestige of racism in our churches, to stand against racial discrimination as the evil that it is, and take positive steps to demonstrate to our commitment to making Black, Asian, Hispanic and other ethic people full partners in Baptist life.
We need to be models to the world of racial reconciliation through the gospel, not because of guilt or some sort of outside pressure, but because the love of Christ compels us. May God grant us the courage to do this.
6) This is an issue that isn’t going away any time soon!
Little more needs to be said about that, does it?
Well said. I’m a white mom who is a pastor’s wife that grew up in the South with relatives who still use derogatory racial terms. I went to a racially diverse schools, a historically black college, and taught school for years in various racial mixes of schools/classrooms. I have always cringed at racism, and it makes me sick. I’ve watched Ferguson with a different view. We have 5 kids: 3 biological white kids and 2 African American girls. Sidenote: Of my bios, 2 are boys who love Michael Jordan; did you know some businesses ban people wearing Jordan tennis shoes… Read more »
Thank you for that comment.
I followed comments on Twitter for much of the evening after the verdict last night. It seems that there is a mad cry for white Christians to empathize with those (not just blacks, by the way) who prejudged this police officer and are now “hurting” as a result of not seeing him hang for the crime from which he was cleared. I saw (on my Twitter feed anyway) only calls for Christians to weep with those who weep. I saw absolutely no calls for Christians to rejoice with those who rejoice. What about the police officers who now feel a… Read more »
“I do recognize the tragedy of this situation, but I am simply exhausted after a night of watching Christians thoughtlessly encourage the deepening of the racial divide by focusing on only skin color and not the justice that was carried out.”
I could not agree more.
William
Very good statement.
The only cure for racial strife – the recipe for racial reconciliation – is the Gospel. It need not be any more complicated than that.
Tarheel
Yes Yes Yes. As Christians and especially pastors and preachers we must say loud and clear that Jesus is the answer. I now that is trite, but it is true. We keep looking in the wrong places for a “cure” to this issue. The New Testament give us a solid, workable basis for racial equality. (I prefer the term “human equality”)
Some people do not believe that American astronauts have landed on the moon, and form fanciful stories to support that belief. The evidence that was sifted by 12 grand jurors (selected long before the situation occurred) appeared to have value and from the brief explanation that was proffered last night by the grand jury, …the sad path for this young man killed in the street was one of three outcomes; (1) an ultimate jail sentence of some extent for robbery/assault/fleeing after a peaceful surrender to law enforcement (2) an ultimate jail sentence of some extent for robbery/assault/fleeing/assault of a law… Read more »
Chris
As I said earlier I agree. This is one reason I am proud to call Tarheel a friend and brother in Christ. Men we have the answer, PREACH IT.
While I am on a tare, I might as well make some enemies. Men we must spend more time telling people about the change that the blood of Jesus makes and less time talking about how to manage money etc. It is time for Hard Gospel reaching that can change man’s attitude and behavior.
D.L., you don’t like to manage money? 🙂 The love of the management may be evil at the root, but the management of resources is important for maintaining his household in a Godly manner. Don’t love money….Go Gospel!
Chris
I am not radical on this issue. I do see the need for that sort of preaching. It is biblically defensible. However, with the national situation, and the world stage as it is, I think we can find more important things on which to preach
I am so proud of our country and our legal system. Anyone rioting over this verdict is a embarrassment to the human race and I hope they never breed. Anyone unhappy with this verdict needs to stop using their “fee-wings” to make decisions and actually rely on facts.
Decisions like this and the Zimmerman case make me thankful to be an American.
I’m pretty sure that ridicule and disdain are not helpful steps in the orocess if healing. .
I wonder if some are being to quick to revel in the findings of the Grand jury without taking note of what the whole episode tells us about race relations in America.
Just because Officer Wilson’s shooting was declared justified does not do away with centuries of mistreatment and the stain it has left
It tells us that some people use this situation as an excuse to say “We didn’t land on Plymouth Rock. Plymouth Rock landed on us”. And it’s not just black people that are using this as an excuse to riot and in general act like scum.
Someone disagrees with the verdict? Fine. But violence and looting are the responses of savages, not civilized human beings.
No one is condoning the violence or looting. Why not attempt to empathize with the pain felt by so many?
This shooting may not have been the cold blooded murder some described it as, but shouldn’t we actively seeking to heal racial tension through Christ rather than just gloat over a jury finding?
Why don’t those who are “suffering” in their “pain” over the verdict try to objectively look at the situation, realize that due process as outlined in our law was carried out, and, how you say….. get over themselves and deal with reality? I’d say that’s a much more adult way to handle what happened.
Actually there ARE people condoning the violence and looting, including but not limited to elected officials (state senate) in the state of Missouri.
I was speaking of people in this discussion, in the Christian discussion broadly.
sv,
Are they condoning it or understanding it? The difference is important.
CR, trying to make that nuance is like trying to say “I understand why Hitler, the Nazi’s, and a majority of Germans at the time wanted to get kill the Jews.” Hey, after all, they did have “reasons”. Didn’t you know it was the Jews that were keeping the German people down! It was the Jews who were keeping the German people poor. No it was not WW1 that was to blame it was the Jews! (On a side note notice how some of those very statements are still being used to target Jewish communities today). What is most troubling… Read more »
sv,
Not even close.
Godwin’s Law.
Dave
I agree with the heart behind this statement. Gloating over the decision is wrong. However, being respectful and even proud of our system of justice is acceptable.
I believe that you have the right idea and motive, however I remember the race war in the 50s in Saint Louis it was not pretty. I stood up for a fellow Marine in a resturant when he was told he would have to eat in the kitchen. 10 of us in uniform and he was told that he would have to eat in the kitchen. I told the waitress that if he was to eat in the kitchen we would to. She informed me that we could not eat in the kitchen, in other words it was reserved for… Read more »
The facts in the Ferguson, MO case show that the police officer was justified in what he did to protect himself and society. The Grand Jury studied those facts and said the police officer should not be charged with any crime. I, along with others, am glad the Grand Jury did not cave in to mob rule and public pressure. How unjust that an innocent, public servant doing his job, and doing it well, has been so vilified. The young man killed while attacking a police officer was a strong arm robber and a bully. That is a plain fact.… Read more »
I’ve lived in the St. Louis area for 26 years. I have friends who live in Ferguson and have been there to FBC many times. It’s a good community. So sad to see the mayhem and property destruction. But I think we could all see this coming. Those sympathetic to M. Brown have been clear all along that anything less than an indictment and subsequent conviction of officer Wilson would be injustice. Good post Dave. Let us all pray for the people there and for leaders to be able to break through to the agitators. And for the Brown and… Read more »
Wilson family I meant obviously.
Les
I was born and raised in St. Louis. I pastored in the Brentwood area in the 80’s. I moved with my parents to Ferguson during my senior year in High School (though I continued to attend Beaumont near downtown which was basically 50% black and 50% white). FBC Ferguson was a great gospel preaching church when Bob Worner (Werner?) was there. I suspect it continues to be. But you are correct, one could see this coming, I would like to think that the situation would not have been as bad if the out of towners stayed home.
I don’t get it. This seems so simple to me. A guy who just robbed a store is about to get caught, attacks a police officer and gets shot and killed. Tragedy? Yes. Travesty? No. I don’t get the outrage. If this was a clear case of police brutality (Rodney King) then I too would be outraged. But this incident was clearly not that. This officer was doing exactly what he was trained to do when attacked by a criminal. He’s a hero. As for the rioters…I don’t get it. As I watched the coverage it seemed to me like… Read more »
Dr. Moore put this in perspective well.
white folks tend to look at this as a single, isolated situation – a cop shot an aggressive, law-breaking man, a justified shooting.
African-Americans tend to see it as part of a pattern of brutality, of injustice. They see a white cop shooting down an unarmed black man and contextualize that into a lifetime of injustice.
Who is right? Depends, I guess, on which side of the racial divide you are on.
Dave, I agree with you that our perspective on this issue is necessarily influenced by our own experiences. And while there is certainly a history of racial injustice in our country, and a legal system that has been affected by that history, it would likewise be unjust for this officer to be a scapegoat punished for the sins of the many. The grand jury had to make a decision based on the facts in Officer Wilson’s case. In that respect, looking at this situation in isolation and considering only the legal merits of the case against Wilson isn’t a black/white… Read more »
I agree. Here is perhaps a refined view of my thinking. 1) The justice system ought to be color-blind as much as possible. 2) Christians ought not to pretend that we live in a colorblind society and we ought to take definitive steps toward racial healing reconciliation. We ought to be moved by the injustice being done daily to black people in America (and not try to argue that it doesn’t happen – that is untenable). We ought to be moved by the poverty, the breakdown of the family and many other social and spiritual problems that are found in… Read more »
Dave, and I might add,….actually do something about it. It is not enough to be empathetic alone. Get into the action, and make things different. Talk and empathy is way to cheap to buy.
“We ought to be moved by the poverty, the breakdown of the family and many other social and spiritual problems that are found in much of the black community – all of which are direct descendants of racism, slavery and injustice.” And might I add, over 1 century of dedicated voting for a certain political party. No one wants to talk about the donkey in the room that some of these problems can and should be laid at the feet of a political party that has an entire minority group in its voting pocket, and I dare say does not… Read more »
Stephen, is there NO empathy 4 centuries of oppression did to black culture? No empathy is appropriate.
Frankly, your comments make me sad.
I agree with all you said, Dave. We do need to address these issues at the big-picture level. Most of the current protests are specifically directed at the decision not to indict Wilson, however. I agree with using Ferguson as a launching point to discuss the broader problems. I disagree with those who try to project those problems onto whether Wilson committed a crime. I understand that you are not doing that.
Dave when I hear and see the way the majority treat Black Conservatives in this country, THAT makes me sad. And its THAT reaction that demonstrates that this is NOT entirely about the racial divide, but rather a protected political subset of a major political party in this country. Conservative black men and women, people who are trying to promote REAL ideas to heal the black community, are ignored wholesale simply because of the letter behind their name. People ignoring this reality, makes ME really “sad”.
That is really troubling.
Dave, according to the US Census Bureau, the last 40 years is a testimony to the work that many have done on behalf of Black Americans specifically, but all “race” / ethnic prosperity and inclusion than ever before in the history of this great nation. The number of blacks ages 25 and older with a high school diploma as nearly tripled… 1970=31%, 2010=84%. And the number of blacks ages 25 and older with a college degree has quintupled… 1970=4%, 2010=20%. Maybe we should continue to focus and work on those things that got these numbers heading in the right direction… Read more »
Dave
“Daily” (paragraph 5) is the operative word IMO. While the Ferguson issue is horrific and cannot be discounted, it is the DAILY plight of the Black community that must be addressed. The poverty, hunger, unemployment, feelings of hopelessness, etc that exist day after day after day after day is not the quality of life that America is all about. National attention is turned to this one event. That is the way of the media. Perhaps this is the playing field that the Church can spotlight, not on one or two occasions, but day after day after day after day.
D.L. … that is absolutely correct my friend! We have been ministering in a tough part of Nashville for over 20 years, specifically buying property within the poverty stricken area, and then teaching, revitalizing, mentoring children, tutoring kids, rooting out crack houses, and thugs. It takes a lot of initiative,…working with families, with law enforcement, etc. Its about creating habits and lasting change. But, you can’t just do it with rhetoric,…it takes time and initiative and persistence. We have been blessed to effect now 490+ unique students a year in our urban ministry in downtown Nashville and have just bought… Read more »
Chris I was not aware of your ministry. Blessings on you my brother. Even though I was raised in the inner city of St. Louis, I cannot imagine the challenges you must face in your ministry. You are so right rhetoric is one thing action is quite another. You certainly have my respect for your dedication to a difficult task. I will put you on my 30 day prayer list, my brother. P.S. Have you ever thought about developing some kind of training for others who might want to engage in that kind of ministry. 20 years of experience builds… Read more »
Amen, Dave. Having been a police officer in a small Southern town (Talladega, Alabama, population about 16,000) that was about 30% African-American and in a small Southern city (Montgomery, Alabama, population about 140,000 back then) that was about 50% African-American, I can tell you that inequality existed then and still does. Talladega’s racial relations were on a fair footing to begin with, as it was never a hotbed for the KKK and such, and as police chief there in the 60s, my father added to the town’s heritage by emphasizing fairness along with order. Montgomery had a lot to recover… Read more »
D.L. Thanks brother,… yes we are booking up for the Summer already on training programs. Groups from all over the US come and work with us and learn during the Summer months. For more information you can find that under the DTI (Discipleship Training Institute) part of the website at Cottage Cove Urban Ministries…. http://cottagecove.org
We are currently looking for Interns. The young lady working and ministering with us from Australia will be returning home soon, so there will be an opening.
D.L., fyi…here is the link to the page if churches want to get involved with our training program. Just have them click on the DTI tab at the top right of the page.
http://cottagecove.org/videos.htm
Dave Miller said:
We ought to be moved by the poverty, the breakdown of the FAMILY and many other social and spiritual problems that are found in much of the black community – all of which are direct descendants of racism, slavery and injustice.
WOW, Dave. That is an extraordinary statement to make without proof.
My translation: All of the black community’s problems are the white man’s fault.
“My translation: All of the black community’s problems are the white man’s fault.”
While certainly not entirely true, that is closer to the truth than you would likely ever be willing to admit.
Chris,
Again, no proof offered.
Ken, first of all, if you misinterpret and twist my words, that is not my responsibility. Frankly, it’s not a godly form of communication.
So, I’d appreciate if you’d just respond to what I say, not pervert my words to make your point.
Thanks for that.
If you wish to converse, please indicate that your intent is to abandon that kind of tactic and I will be glad to engage.
Dave,
I apologize for offending your sensibilities. I understand that you are a pastor and should understand godly forms of communication more than a 54 year-old layman, but I do not believe I said anything wrong. I was hoping for a response from you clarifying what you meant in your statement. I also do not understand “that kind of tactic” is.
Please forgive me for my error. I will no longer post here.
Ken, you are welcome to post here, if you’d like. But I’m not going to engage someone in conversation who is going to twist my words as you did.
My words are in English. They do not need to be translated.
What is it you would like me to clarify. If you wish to ask a question or make an observation, fine. But don’t tell me I said something I didn’t say.
I was not so impressed with Moore’s lecturing on this issue. His article only spoke to one side. It was, IMO, frankly, disappointing and not very helpful.
“Who is right? Depends, I guess, on which side of the racial divide you are on.”
I think the facts of the case demonstrate who is right –
This is NOT the case to claim innocent victim-hood on the grounds of racial bias. The facts just do not support it.
Facts are our friends, aren’t they?
Dave
I normally think that Moore does a decent job. However in this case I think he came up short. I am willing to admit however that It may be due to the fact that I expected more (no pun intended) from him. I don’t agree that white people see this as a single event. I think that most people understand the tension and the discussion. We see it differently I am sure but most anyone understands the discussion and the history.
If all we take away from this should is “Michael Brown was a bad guy and Officer Wilson was justified” I’m not sure we are sure Ewing this with gospel eyes.
Why not try to sure we in gee the hurt and pain, the betrayal and the sense of injustice written in the hearts if sure we in geek many people.
A little gospel empathy would ge c a good thing, rather than denying there is a real problem.
“Justice is not about getting the outcome you want, but about a fair process being followed.” No, justice is the guilty being punished and the rights of all being protected. Is it justice when the fair process sends an innocent man to jail? Is it justice when the fair process allows a criminal to escape the consequences of his actions? Is it justice when a fair process does not even allow the fair process to take place? Keep in mind the grand jury is not a trial. Darren Wilson never had his day in court. He had a prosecutor playing… Read more »
True, it is unusual for a grand jury to decline an indictment. The reason is that prosecutors use their discretion to weed out the weak cases themselves. They don’t bring a case to the grand jury unless they are confident they have at least probable cause. The prosecutor could have declined to present the case to the grand jury at all. Of course, had he done that, he would have been castigated in the court of public opinion. Instead, he aired all the evidence before the grand jury and gave them an opportunity to provide a second opinion on behalf… Read more »
Chris, history has shown Justice to be many variations and themes. In America, it is a system based in Law. That was what the jurors had to work with, and did a very good job, it appears of applying the law. American form of justice has served her well, yet can be improved. The anger on either side of this specific debate is not over justice being judged on current law in MO. It is over the perception and understanding of rights. It appears that some in Ferguson and many around the country are not satisfied with how they feel… Read more »
Chris,
The grand jury doesn’t decide the merits of an individual’s action, they decide the merits of the evidence, as they see it. They did not rule Wilson innocent, they ruled the evidence wasn’t compelling enough to indict. Considering the evidence, it was a very unusual ruling.
Agreed,…. they ruled the evidence pursuant to the law. The evidence appeared very convincing toward the lawless action of the perpetrator, not the counterpart. In this case, the young men fit the action of the perpetrator in the evidence viewed by the 12 individuals commissioned to decide that fact.
What is justice, Chris? Who says?
Roberts, “He had a prosecutor playing defense attorney and a grand jury that did something very unusual: decline an indictment.” WOW! Is it possible they declined to indict because the evidence was so overwhelming that Officer Wilson acted reasonably and not illegally? Prosecutor playing defense attorney? Evidence please. That is a serious charge! Is this asinine accusation based on the same convictions that brought us your comments back in August and September – for example MB being shot in the back from 40 feet as he was running away with his hands up? Bluntly, Chris – Your rhetoric on this… Read more »
Chris,
Amen!!!!
“Justice is not about getting the outcome you want, but about a fair process being followed.”
Amen Dave! By all accounts, justice was indeed rendered in St. Louis County … the facts were carefully considered and weighed during a lengthy, fair process. As I watched the response to that decision in this morning’s news, I was reminded of an Abraham Lincoln quote “You never have the right to do wrong.”
That’s only one part of my point though, Max. The other is that we have to realize what our white forefathers have done to create the problem and to seek in humility to fix it thru Christ’s love
I am confused. A war was fought and many white young men died. then a peaceful but hard won solution for legal equality by Dr King. that peaceful solution included many white people. fast forward through affirmative action programs and mandatory hiring practices by not only the government but private industry on to today where we have a black president and a black Attorney General up until recently. the police chief of my city is black. if those things are not proof a constant stream of hard won remedies to pay for the sins of our white forefathers that have… Read more »
“what ever happened to content of character instead of skin color?”
Granted the man who said those words was shot and killed because of the content of his character and the color of his skin.
“what ever happened to content of character instead of skin color?”
Granted the man who said those words was shot and killed because of the content of his character and the color of his skin.
”
Finish your thought, Chris. What does that mean?
A black man was elected twice as president. Should I take your same words above and apply it to Obama since it is about skin color? Is that why people voted FOR him instead of trying to shoot him?
Lydia, that is still the ideal.
But we are FAR from reaching that. Black people today still suffer injustice regularly because of their skin color.
“But we are FAR from reaching that. Black people today still suffer injustice regularly because of their skin color.” That is much too vague but something we must all agree with or we are “racists” or hardhearted. When you see injustice, fight it as I do. I have had the opportunity to fire someone who was trying to covertly intimidate a black coworker. That was 20 years ago and you betcha I got my ducks in a row and made it happen. And keep in mind the word “injustice” is serious. Get specific. It is not the same as being… Read more »
“what ever happened to content of character instead of skin color?” Content of character is being displayed on the streets of Ferguson, no matter how you spin it. The heart of the problem is a problem with the heart. Lost hearts are black hearts regardless of the color of one’s skin. What’s the answer? Jesus, of course! Perhaps that seems too elementary a fix for most folks to wrap their head around, but it’s the only hope we have in this country to resolve racial tension. That was the essence of Dr. King’s dream. To drag Dr. King into the… Read more »
Yes, because racism wasn’t as much of a problem back in the 50’s when more people went to church……….
If someone looks at the evidence that was presented to the grand jury and disagrees with the grand jury’s decision, that person has a right to his opinion. If he wants to peacefully protest the decision as an injustice, I fully support his 1st Amendment right to do so. To me, the problem is that there were so many people ready to protest before they heard the evidence. Of those protesting last night, how many do you think actually listened to the prosecutor’s presentation? Any result other than an indictment was unacceptable to them, regardless of the facts. In essence,… Read more »
“Of those protesting last night, how many do you think actually listened to the prosecutor’s presentation?”
Did the violence start before or after his statement?
It started immediately after the decision was announced.
Chris,…to my earlier point. The instigators of lawlessness last night were preconditioned on their perception of what “their rights” should be, not necessarily the law. A tweet could not contain the entire reading unfortunately for MO.
Chris,
The instigators of violence last night were, for the most part, looking for an excuse to be violent. Do not confuse looting and vandalism with the cry for justice on the part of the family and community.
Again, I agree with your comment. I hurt for this family and their loss and truly look for a remedy that fits into the theme of American justice for their situation. It may not come as an action out of lawlessness (clearly and wisely dealt by the grand jury), but it may come in the ability of the community to address perception of rights and educate both the public and law enforcement.
Chris, Roberts, “Do not confuse looting and vandalism with the cry for justice on the part of the family and community.” Legal Justice by definition cannot be predetermined or determined on the basis of intimidation…it must be based on facts. Physical evidence and testimony. By those standards Officer Wilson was found, under justice, to have acted reasonably and within the confines of the law. Also, to your comment “did the violence start before or after the announcement?” After – but I have one for you…were the ready made identical signs decrying a non indictment that were being waived by demonstrators… Read more »
If it turns out, as it has, that the initial incident in Ferguson was not about race or racial injustice, then in connection to this incident, perhaps we should not be talking about race at all. It was a simple incident of a justified police shooting. Sometimes rioters need to be told the truth, that they are wrong. Perhaps we should talk more about racial issues, when a real racial issue arises. And perhaps we should not be overly sensitive about race. How about getting back to a colorblind society? Yesterday I walked into a bank and was met by… Read more »
Regardless of whether race had anything to do with the shooting of Michael Brown, situation in Ferguson is CLEARLY about race. Suggesting we ignore that reality is beyond comprehension.
Amen, Adam. Amen!
We need to see this incident in the context of racial relations in general in this nation, and we need to be redemptive – not just condemning.
I agree with both you and Adam – Here – David Miller – but I think the point David B is making is that the actual incident was not about race – race has been injected into the story – but there is no evidence that race relations precipitated the actual event being discussed. To try and force this case an example of police racism and the like, given the evidence that shows that not be the case at all, is to cheapen and devalue actual cases that could be used to illustrate the problem we agree exists. That said… Read more »
Thanks, Tarheel.
My point was simply that if we are going to talk about racism, why not begin with a true incident of racism, rather than a false one.
And God bless those police officers of all races who are simply doing their jobs, and doing them well.
David R. Brumbelow
“Perhaps he was a victim, but he was not without culpability in the tragedy. He could have and should have done things differently. Still, I wonder if Officer Wilson could have handled this in such a way that he would not have had to use deadly force to protect himself” Dave, you are my friend and we have had differing opinions on very few matters, however, this statement is the only statement I can remember you making that disappoints me. “Perhaps he was a victim.” I struggle understanding how you can make such a statement. Michael Brown robbed a store… Read more »
Well said Dean.
Yes, agreed Dean. Calling MB a victim – and thereby insinuating Officer Wilson has done something nefarious – clouds any real discussion regarding healing the racial divide. I am saddened for MB’s family and friends who have to experience this loss – but the facts have been clearly laid out for all who desire to see them as they are – Officer Wilson in this case did what MB’s decisions and behavior necessitated. I am not and would not imply that racism is dead and there is not racial divide or even that parts of our systems are still in… Read more »
Dean, Great analysis.
Sorry, to disappoint you, but I think there is still enough murkiness about what happened.
I think if you’d read what I said, you’d see where my heart is – I’m trying to call both sides to understand the other side.
However, I still have some dis-ease about all that happened to the point where I am not ready to place all the blame on one side or the other. 80-20? 70-30? 95-5? don’t know.
But I remain with questions about the situation. Sorry to disappoint you, but that’s where I am.
Which is why it seems that a trial where both sides could be presented, defended, and prosecuted would be the way that justice would be carried out. I too have questions about what actually happened. Perhaps Officer Wilson is totally innocent. We should presume his innocence until guilt is proven beyond a reasonable doubt. But, the process of the Grand Jury deciding all of this and the DA presenting all of the evidence but not advocating for an indictment is very confusing to me. The role of the Grand Jury is not to decide the case or hear both sides.… Read more »
I wish someone would write a really good book on this issue, Alan.
Oh, wait….
http://www.amazon.com/When-Heaven-Earth-Collide-Evangelicals/dp/1603063501
Never mind!
I’ll bet you wish someone would fulfill his promise to write a review of the book!!
Or, perhaps he realized that making the decision himself left him open to the charge of bias (as has been argued in another comment here, I think by Mike).
Seating a GJ and giving them access to all the evidence seems like a good way to handle this.
The grand jury system is designed to protect defendants from having to face trial on unsubstantiated charges. It is possible that probable cause can be lacking even where there is some incriminating evidence. I don’t want to live under a legal system in which one can be tried as a criminal based on mere accusations of wrongdoing, however shaky. Having to stand trial, even if ultimately acquitted, is a substantial burden on a defendant. Had Michael Brown escaped following the robbery that night (and assuming we didn’t have that video), would we feel right about his being tried if the… Read more »
Alan, when you say that “a trial where both sides could be presented, defended, and prosecuted would be the way that justice would be carried out“, you very obviously have decided “what to make of this process.”
Alan, just read through your posting. I think what you have said has some merit with respect to the DA. More than likely the DA knew the evidence was so weak for an indictment, it certainly appears to me that the involvement of the Feds is what pushed this to a GJ. The DA had to have made the judgement that if he made the push personally to not indict relative to the evidence that he had seen, there would be even more implications. So, it does appear that he made the decision to push to a GJ with the… Read more »
That’s right Chris, I believe that had this not been some hot button issue. And had it not been exacerbated by race baiters like Al Sharpton and the current AG, it is unlikely that this would have gone to a grand jury in the first place.
“These were all proven to be lies … the individuals who are most culpable for what is happening in Ferguson.”
Almost my exact words after hearing the DA’s report last night. These lies have taken flight throughout the world to fuel unrest. Who is the father of lies and author of confusion?
Dean
Anither one of those time i say “Gee I wish I had said that”. Well done.
” Why not attempt to empathize with the pain felt by so many?” Agreed. Absolutely we should do that…. But is Officer Wilson, his family, his friends, the store owners victimized by terror, the officers in harms way this very moment, the innocent people in Ferguson, and other residents and officers in other cities where violent protesting (or – lets face it excuses for criminal behavior) are taking place not worthy of calls for compassion and understanding and healing? Where are the calls for mercy and compassion for them? Why has Stetzer and Moore and others not lectured America in… Read more »
Gospel reconciliation will require a lot more than saying, “See, it’s all Michael Brown’s fault.” Or, “See, they are just a bunch of lawless looters.” (Not accusing you of that)
I agree with your premise. I just think we have to deal in the macros, not the micros.
Agreed, but pretending that this incident, at the time it happened, in real time, was all about race is counterproductive as well, IMO. This case is not a microcosm of injustice – at least not against MB. This was a case where a police officer who was trying to question/detain a suspect. It is about a suspect who became violent with said police officer. It is about a police officer who had to use lethal force to prevent said suspect who has acted criminally and with intent to harm the officer from attacking him again. Insisting on making this case… Read more »
Tarheel, it’s not about pretending that the initial incident was all about race. It’s about understanding and empathizing why so many blacks perceived it as being about race. Years of discrimination and distrust leave scars that heal slowly, and sometimes not at all. That perception is still very real and will bear its face again. The parents or grandparents of these truly protesting, not rioting, were the ones subjected to real life, legalized discrimination. Seeing as it was a part of American culture legally until the 60’s, we need to understand, even if we don’t agree, with that POV
Yea, I feel ya.
I am not discounting the truth of what you are saying. I know there is palpable mistrust of the police and institutions and government structures – some of it quite justified – some of it quite illogical. I do try to separate the rational and rational issues and demonstrations from the irrational and violent ones.
I will say thought that it saddens me when black “leaders” exacerbate the tensions in ways that seem intentional in order to actually keep them metaphorically aflame (although sometimes literally aflame).
I agree about those who simply agitate and fan the fire. So do many blacks. One thing I try to teach our congregationn as we are in a predominantly black area is to just watch our words on these things. The simplist thing said can be taken the wrong way, and voicing our opinion, even though it may be right, may shut a door to sharing the gospel, which is what we are to be about. Satan uses these things very effectively to rebuild walls that separate us. As Christians, we need to be able to above all else put… Read more »
Great post. It’s unfortunate that the dialog so far seems to focus on the small picture of this one case and not on the bigger issue. I live in a predominantly white neighboring county to the south of St. Louis County. For reference, Ferguson is in North St. Louis County, so I am a good 25-30 miles away from the areas affected. Two thoughts came to my mind last night as I watched the excellent local news versus the drama seeking nation news. 1) It is my firm belief that you have to separate your disgust of the looters from… Read more »
Thank you for this comment.
“It is my firm belief that you have to separate your disgust of the looters from the demonstrators. They are not the same people.”
Amen! I agree with you.
I was very heartened last night when it was reported that, at least once, a group of peaceful protestors linked arm and arm in front of a store preventing looters from getting to it – alas, though the criminal minded ones found other outlets for their behavior.
I have no issue at all with anyone who seeks to peacefully assemble and speak freely for any reason whatsoever.
Empathy is needed. It would be easier if the Brown supporters were saying, “Mike was a troubled young man. He made some very poor decisions. He chose the life of a criminal and lost his life as a result. We are saddened that his life ended this way. We plead for all youth to see his life as an example of what can happen if you make poor decisions.” That is not what they are saying. They are saying that MB was the victim of a hate crime for being black. They are saying that he is the innocent party.… Read more »
Re: Justice. Are the rioters being prosecuted? There were riots prior to the grand jury. They don’t want justice or they would have to submit to it themselves. They want victory over their perceived enemies. Understanding that their sinful nature is surfing the wave of a history of discrimination doesn’t mitigate the truth that they deserve justice as well. Presenting the gospel, which is the only solution here, requires speaking the truth both about our own sins as well as the sins of those to whom we speak, demonstrating how those sins are covered by the blood of Christ, not… Read more »
Jim,
Do not confuse those doing violence with those seeking justice. As for those doing violence, there were 61 arrests last night. Certainly there were many looters who got away, but 61 arrests shows those doing violence aren’t exactly being ignored.
Chris,
I posted this earlier to you when you made a similar response – I did not want you to miss it.
Legal Justice by definition cannot be predetermined or determined on the basis of intimidation…it must be based on facts. Physical evidence and testimony. By those standards Officer Wilson was found, under justice, to have acted reasonably and within the confines of the law.
There are legitimate questions as to whether those standards really were upheld. Just because a situation goes through the legal process doesn’t mean justice is served.
But doesn’t justice demand that only the facts and evidence be considered?
Allowing anything else – including race relations, the hurting of the family, many other factors that are real and important, to determine a “verdict” defies the idea of justice.
What is designed to protect everyone is the blindness of proceedings….only the facts of the case – nothing else – only the facts.
Tarheel that is exactly the point. Some people don’t want blind justice, they want revenge justice. The people claiming “white suppression” don’t want a fair justice system, they want a black centric justice system. The evidence is, based on the statements of the agitators that a riot was going to happen regardless of the GJ result. The evidence is, that even a trial and a guilty verdict for Officer Wilson would not have stopped the violence that is playing out. I am 100% in favor of a blind justice system. And I think we are closer to that goal now… Read more »
You are nit-picking, Chris. The point is that a jury heard all the evidence and listened to the testimony of all the eyewitnesses (even those who recanted or admitted they’d made stuff up). My point is that justice is not about demanding that a certain outcome happen, but that a fair hearing being given. Someone is ALWAYS going to be unhappy with the outcome. Someone ALWAYS thinks the accused was guilty and others ALWAYS think him or her innocent. My post was not about the legal process (and I understand that the grand jury process here was unusual, but not… Read more »
Tarheel,
I said nothing about race relations, family feelings, etc. I had the evidence in mind.
Chris,… even though probably foolish at the beginning of the unfortunate situation,….the Federal Government used this as an opportunity and injected themselves into the process. There injection in this case proved to be a basic lesson in law, as they examined the evidence as well and the findings were consistent,…at least up to this point. I am wondering if the Federal Government will try to bring charges of some sort in the future, and follow the same logic you are posturing. At the beginning of this saga, and before any rendering had been made….that appears to be the objectives of… Read more »
Dave,
My point is that just because the various steps of the system are followed doesn’t mean justice has been served. Our history reveals many, many instances of that same system being used to perpetuate injustice. It is a bit obtuse to pretend that going through the system = justice being served.
No one is saying GJ decision always = always justice being served. What we are saying is that based on physical evidence and testimony presented to them there was a finding of a lack of probable cause (a very, very low standard BTW) by an impartial standing grand jury that was formed way before the incident. Even Geraldo, who is not a fan of the police – ever in any case – and certainly has been an active spokesman against racial profiling and police force – has said numerous times that the evidence is overwhelming that while there was a… Read more »
Bringing up Geraldo can result in immediate banishment.
Dave Miller,
I most humbly apologize – It was a serious error in judgment to bring up that name – perhaps you might find the grace and mercy to grant me clemency from banishment?
Chris, I’m not confusing them with actually seeking justice. Sorry if I sound that way. It’s my way of indicating passively that they aren’t although many claim they are in order to move my discussion to the gospel.
I haven’t been following all the news, so I hadn’t heard one way or another that there had been some arrests. On the one hand, I’m glad they are trying to enforce the law there for everyone’s safety. On the other hand, arresting them won’t help anyone accept the truth.
I watched a good portion of the District Attorney’s presentation. If what he said in terms of man hours invested by the grand jury, the number of interviews, the number of witnesses, the amount of physical evidence – the number of photographs, tests, video and audio evidence, and 3 autopsies is anywhere close to being accurate, I have but one opinion. I have no business second guessing the people who sat through and reviewed all of that information and then made a judgment in a highly charged atmosphere. So I have no comment about the process, whether the result was… Read more »
Thank you, sir.
I have a few questions for any legal folks who may know. 1. Is it common for a prosecutor to take a case to a grand jury? 2. If not, how does a prosecutor decide to seek a prosecution? 3. Is it common for a prosecutor to take an officer involved shooting to a GJ? 4. Is it more or less common for the prosecutor to be aggressive to get an indictment? 5. Is it ever advisable for a prosecutor to attempt to be unbiased in a GJ case? IOW is it sometimes advisable for a prosecutor to remove a… Read more »
Those questions are the source of a lot of the unrest in North County. Here’s some backstory about PA McCullough: 1) His father was a police officer killed in the line of duty by an African American. He has several family members who have worked in some capacity for police departments. Is that disqualifying? In my mind no, but these facts do make a claim of bias easy to comprehend. 2) As his position is an elected position, he is very much a political animal. We just had a nasty campaign for St. Louis County Executive, but the nastiness was… Read more »
Mike I appreciate that. I actually live in STL county and am very familiar with Bob and the county exec race. My questions are genuine general legal questions about how prosecutors operate and grand juries.
Grand jury practice varies by state. Federal prosecutors are constitutionally required to use grand juries. States, however, may choose to abolish grand juries or to use them only in certain types of cases. Grand juries may also have investigative powers as well as the duty to review indictments. It’s hard to say how often the decision to use a grand jury is affected by the fact a police officer is the defendant. When a grand jury is not involved, the prosecutor files charges directly and the case proceeds to a preliminary hearing before a judge who decides whether there is… Read more »
Thanks Jeff. I for one appreciate that Bob decided to take this case to the GJ. Seems to me he was trying to be as fair as possible. He’s being condemned for not being more aggressive to get an indictment. Of course he would have been condemned had he chosen not to seek an indictment on his own as well. No win either way he went.
I agree. The prosecutor was open to claims of political bias no matter what he did. It seems to me that McCullough took a middle course: he didn’t feel comfortable with the case, but he at least exposed the grand jury to all the evidence so they could make an independent decision. Had McCullough simply decided to close the case himself, there would have been even greater outrage along with a greater risk of reactionary violence. There was a lot at stake here.
A person involved in officer involved shooting cases in NY just said on CNN that for the past 25 years almost EVERY officer involved shooting case has been presented to a GJ with all available evidence just like what happened in MO.
Yea, I thought so too – it seems common to me – anyway.
DA’s work with police all the time – I think most of them can be impartial anyway – but the appearance makes it worth going the grand jury route.
I am not an attorney, but as a police detective, I had quite a bit of experience with both prosecutors and Grand Juries. And my experience is some 30+ years out of date too. The prosecutor (or District Attorney, or State’s Attorney, or Circuit Solicitor, the title varies somewhat from jurisdiction to jurisdiction) has a mandate to seek the truth. This is different from a defense attorney’s job, which is to present a vigorous defense of his or her client, without regard for where he or she believes the truth lies. This means the prosecutor is supposed to look at… Read more »
There are two separate issues here, and it seems to me like most people either ignore one or the other. Issue 1: a cop shot a man in Ferguson. Issue 2: the historic and present injustice toward black people in America. The facts on issue 1 seem pretty clear. The rhetoric of “cold-blooded murder” seems to have been proven false. From what I heard last night, Officer Wilson was within his legal rights when he shot Brown. The facts of this case seem to rest on the side of the officer. The facts on issue 2 seem pretty clear as… Read more »
“We need to separate these two. The American history of racism does not make Officer Wilson guilty. The innocence of Officer Wilson does not negate 400 years of oppression.”
I think we all can agree on this. 🙂
We need to separate these two. The American history of racism does not make Officer Wilson guilty. The innocence of Officer Wilson does not negate 400 years of oppression. If this is true, then the people who are hurt and wounded by the verdict have no basis to be hurt and wounded. That is the point. There is a certain segment of the population* that, anytime something happens involving a white person and a black person, scream “Racism!!! Whitey out to get me, whitey out to get me!” Instead of perpetually claiming to be victimized when the issue is clearly… Read more »
If one does not wish to be identified as a racist, it would be well for that person to carefully guard their words against the kinds of generalization, categorization and denigration that tend to mark racism.
Dave, with all due respect, that street goes both ways. I would say that if one does not want to be labeled a race monger (like Al Sharpton, or State Sen Nashid) to need to…
“…carefully guard their words against the kinds of generalization, categorization and denigration that tend to mark (race mongering).”
Well, since Al Sharpton does not, to my knowledge, read SBC Voices, I don’t write much for his sake.
I sure wish you’d take my words to heart, though.
“Issue 2: the historic and present injustice toward black people in America.”
How does that line up with the fact it took white votes to elect a black president? Twice. Does that prove anything concerning point of injustice and skin color.
Are you sure you are not really talking about “class” injustice?
dave
most certainly there are two streams of thought. mixing them is not a good idea.
Dave,
As always, you are a voice of reason amidst the shame of so much nonsense.
You always inspire me!
I think a point that may be missed is that even if the shooting was legally justified, the racial tension that obviously exists in Ferguson (and elsewhere) may have led to an outcome that wouldn’t have occurred had Brown and Wilson been of the same race. Race may have aggravated the response of either or both of these men.
But that is speculation, is it not?
It could be that Wilson was racist inciting him to act out.
It could be that Brown was racist inciting him to act out.
It could be that both were racist inciting them both to act out.
It could be that neither were racist and the events would have played out in the same way if they were both of the same race.
That is why following the evidence only is the way to lead to justice being served. Speculation is not helpful. If evidence had been presented that race was a factor with regard to either or both men – I would certainly expect that to have been presented and considered along with all the other GJ evidence.
Tarheel: My point is, I think people are looking at the outcome (no indictment) and concluding that race wasn’t a factor in the incident. That logic doesn’t follow. Every time a black person expects the worst when they are pulled over by a white cop in a white neighborhood, or a white person’s finger hovers over the 911 speed dial when black kids in hoodies come near, race is a factor, even if nothing bad happens. When the day comes that the black motorist is pulled over and thinks, “uh oh, was I speeding?” and the white pedestrian thinks “I… Read more »
Bill, good points. I think the church as the best opportunity to be “post-racial”. Since the federal and state governments build into the current system a reason to pay attention to racial outcomes, I fear that finding a way to “post-racial” relations will be much slower and political.
Interesting. When I was in High School, I was rather aggressively detained and questioned by black officers simply because I and a group of friends were playing basketball on a court that was in a black neighborhood. My older brother was stopped and questioned recently on his way to work one morning by a black officer because he took a short cut through a black neighborhood…he was actually told by the cop that “when white dudes come through here it is usually to sell drugs.” There are two cases of profiling – I wonder if these cops would be considered… Read more »
By the way, I do not consider either of those cases to be racially motivated – it was actually good policing. When my brother and I, as we were taught, answered respectfully to the officers and did as we were asked by them, the situations ended peacefully.
Notice I said race is a factor, and by that I mean by both sides. So no, the black officers in the latter example were not necessarily racist, but race was a factor in the incident. In your own experience at the basketball court, yeah, they might have been racist. Certainly race was a factor.
Tarheel: I think it is clear, especially the latter, that each incident was motivated by race. That’s not the same thing as motivated by racism.
Tarheel,
Amen!!!!
To those who asked about the Grand Jury, it does vary by state. But generally prosecutors take cases to a grand jury to obtain an indictment, not as an exercise to see what might happen. Grand jury proceedings are the most biased proceedings against the defendant. The old saying is that a prosecutor could indict a ham sandwich. The prosecutor and his witnesses are the only people who appear before the grand jury. The defendant usually pleads the 5th Amendment so he cannot be cross examined. The defense lawyer is not allowed to be there or to cross examine the… Read more »
I suspect the prosecutor knew there would not be enough evidence to indict. The whole exercise may have been one of appeasement.
“The old saying is that a prosecutor could indict a ham sandwich.”
In my discussions with people today, I’ve used that old adage several times.
The overarching issue is this: Officer Wilson operated within his training and the grand jury looked at the investigation and agreed that charges were not warranted. This, with the citizens members of the grand jury going home and seeing and hearing all the threats of violence if they failed to indict him. I can imagine that some of those jurors *wanted* to find enough to indict, just to put off what is happening now. (After all, then it goes to a court trial and then the rioting would be blamed on those jurors.) The problem is that the system, overall,… Read more »
“””The problem is that the system, overall, is tilted.””” I know people have already made up there minds on this issue–perhaps weeks ago. So, I understand the basis for the statement made above. It matters very little if this is a “true” statement or not. It fits the narrative for some and so we see statements like this flying like tear gas canisters at the riot. I do agree that some “people feel this way.” Feelings are nebulous things. I’m not sure they are particularly helpful in dealing with whatever degree of “racial tension” we have in our country. Also,… Read more »
Would someone explain why there were only 3 Black jurors in a town that is 70% Black? That is a issue just as serious as the killing of Mike Brown.
Pastor McKissic,
You know how much I love and appreciate you as my dear brother in Christ. I don’t know why only 3 black people were used on the grand jury, but do you truly believe that white people aren’t capable of assessing the evidence and coming to a just conclusion? What if in the coming days we were to find out that the black jurors voted to acquit, would that have any weight in your opinion?
From what we’ve been told, we won’t be allowed to find out how the jury voted.
Chris,
I was asking a hypothetical question. I’m trying to better understand Brother Dwight’s thinking on this matter.
Brother John,
The quality & depth of our relationship can handle disagreement or even a sensitive conversation.
Yes! If the 3 Black jurors found him innocent, I would feel confident that the evidence & the evidence alone, led to this conclusion. It is inexplicable to me that there were only 3 Blacks on this jury, except that decision was strategic. That disparity also helps fuels the anger.
Also, it has been my experience that leaks are always a possibility.
Thank you brother for your very forthright answer.
Svm exactly right. County prosecutor and the % you quite are right on. And…the GJ was in place by May I think we’ll before this incident.
To answer your question, because this was a St Louis County prosecutor with a St Louis County Grand Jury pulled from the St Louis County jury pool. St Louis County as a whole is 70% white, 24% black. Based on that the jury pool is dead on.
If this is correct – that explains it. I have to say though that it is completely assuming and Sterotypical typical to assert that white people will always, no matter the evidence, vote a certain way and black people will, no matter the evidence, vote a certain way – is there no individuality – or are votes determined by the color of ones skin? Is there no chance of impartiality or is that determined by the color of one’s skin? Is there no chance of fairness or is that determined by the color of one’s skin? If this is the… Read more »
Dwight,
Total speculation here – but I think my guess is are reasonable.
Possibly because juries are randomly (most likely by computer) picked from voter registration rolls and there possibly are less blacks registered to vote?
It doesn’t have to be a racist reason.
Just one more thought, though, as I read some people on Facebook, and hear about Tweets from some more, and read other quotes. It seems like some people are trying so hard to be racially sensitive that they excuse all kinds of bad behavior. And, it’s as if they’re saying, “No matter what the evidence is, lynch the White man. Because, we’ve got to look like we’re the more racially sensitive people. and thus, appear to be more sophisticated and intelligent.” So, the Black man, and the Hispanic man, and the American Indian can do no wrong. But, White people… Read more »
A preeminently unhelpful comment. Name one person calling for lynchings. Many people are speaking against the arson and looting. No one is saying anything about lynching anyone.
Chris,
It’s a figure of speech, and I think you know that. I was using it in the sense of…”Put the White man in jail for killing the Black man…never mind the evidence, or the facts of the case…never mind if the White man is innocent, or guilty…just put him in prison.”
Again, I think you know what I meant, and you’re trying to make a big deal about nothing.
David
David,
It’s true that I know what you were doing with that comment.
http://www.dailydot.com/politics/ferguson-lynching-michael-brown-darren-wilson/
Actually Chris, there were calls for Wilson to be lynched, even if they were called “mock”.
Your summary is astonishingly misleading. The demonstration there has three people lynching _themselves_ as a way of showing violence against black people. There was _no_ call for lynching Wilson, staged or otherwise. Did you not even try to understand what was happening?
Chris what is preeminently unhelpful is people “Mocking” and harkening to the lynchings of the past in order to provoke and incite anger.
It’s completely irrational and tge height of baiting to even intimate that anyone in civilized America today supports the idea of lynching black people.
Why are you identifying with Wilson being white? What difference does that make? And, when have we seen anyone calling for lynchings of the white man? I have seen a lot of white people today making racist jokes and comments and denigrating anyone who disagrees with this decision as the equivalent of a barbarian. I have seen far more racism from whites today – white Christians, for that matter – than I have from blacks. I have seen anger and confusion from blacks, but honestly, I haven’t seen a lot of them blaming all whites for this. I have seen… Read more »
Alan,
Do you honestly think all of this hulabaloo would be going on if Officer Wilson had been Black? I don’t. It’s a racial thing. Officer Wilson was White, and he shot a Black man. And yes, I hear a lot of people saying that Officer Wilson should be put in prison.
David
“I have seen far more racism from whites today – white Christians, for that matter – than I have from blacks.”
I challenge you to look at the #Ferguson twitter feed. Or turn on anything Al Sharpton is saying.
Yep. I was thinking The exact same thing.
Although I will say that there has been way too much racist/revenge seeking/gloating rhetoric going on form people espousing various veiwpoints.
So might be helpful to see what the family did last night.
http://myfox8.com/2014/11/25/michael-browns-stepfather-at-rally-burn-this-b-down/
isn’t Inciting a riot a crime? Doesn’t “justice” demand the arrest of Michael Brown stepfather on that charge?
Nice, Tarheel, real nice.
Of course I think such a charge would be ridiculous Given his understandable emotional state right now – consoling a grieving wife over the loss of her son, very likely he is stepfather loved as well – my point is that cries for justice can come from any corner of any place at any time – most often these cries are tied up in emotion – that’s another reason I am thankful for judicial system that seeks to suck emotion out of the situation and look at the totality of the facts. I just hope the revenge mentality doesn’t continue… Read more »
Have Black people been mistreated in the past in the USA? Most definitely. Should we understand the anger of Black people due to past injustices? Yes, we most certainly should. Does that mean that a White cop should go to prison, today, for defending himself against a criminal? No way. Does that mean that White people should feel guilty for all the past injustices? No way, again. I never lynched anyone. I never owned a slave. And, does this mean that looting and burning down people’s businesses, and burning people’s cars should be excused? No way…no how.
Well, I think that there is a lot of misinformation about grand juries and the role of the prosecutor in dealing with a grand jury. 1. There is no defense attorney cross examining witnesses. 2. The Prosecutor is not acting as a Prosecutor in the same way that he would in an actual trial. Why? because he is using the grand jury to determine if the evidence warrants a jury trial. 3. A grand jury’s threshold of proof is not beyond a reasonable doubt, it is what is call a preponderance of the evidence. In other words, the threshold of… Read more »
Some corrections to your attempt to address what you call misinformation:
The Ferguson grand jury required 9 of 12 votes to indict. I’m no mathematician, but that’s a wee bit higher than 51%, try 75%.
You say there were “several black” on the grand jury. To be precise, there were 3 – that’s 25%.
3 blacks would make up 25% of the jury Chris. Number two most grand juries require a 51% majority. And number your comment about the prosecutor acting as a defense attorney is just beyond ridiculous.
Further even a 75% required vote (if you are correct)is light years from the unanimous vote required of a trial jury.
…I’m the one who told you that the three African Americans on the grand jury made up 25%, perhaps you misread something… It doesn’t matter how other grand juries operate, this one required a 75% vote, as indicated in pretty much any news article talking about the Ferguson grand jury. Since your Googling skills might just be lacking, I’ll help you out: http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/how-the-ferguson-grand-jury-process-works/2014/11/24/46599f9a-73f9-11e4-a589-1b102c2f81d0_story.html “In Missouri, there are 12 members on a grand jury and nine must vote in favor of an indictment for there to be one.” As for the prosecutor, he was not formally the defense attorney, but nonetheless… Read more »
“He (the prosecutor) did not want to indict Wilson and did his best to ensure there would be no indictment.”
Is this random accusation (yet again without proof) provided with the same conviction of the other pontifications that you have espoused on the case that have been so thoroughly debunked?
Maybe we should just except whatever it is you’re saying as fact because some guy on the Internet said so?
Chris,
Of course he didn’t want to indict the man because he knew that it was not likely that he would get a conviction. Like I said, you do not understand the role of a prosecutor in a grand jury.
John,
He was not acting according to his role, one of the problems with how the Ferguson process went. This has already been pointed out by many people.
Further, given the fact that you brought up that an acquittal is rare adds more credence to the grand jury’s findings not less.
I watched an interview this morning where a man who had been both a defense attorney and a prosecutor said he was doing precisely what he job was.
John, I’ll see your prosecutor and raise you one of my own. As for the acquittal, no, that they deviated from the norm does not prove anything given all of the abnormalities of the case and given the available evidence. I don’t know whether or not Wilson was guilty, but the available evidence more than warranted an indictment. That it was not delivered in this case speaks volumes for the integrity of the process, and the prosecutor’s involvement is at the heart of the problems. This is why people from the start called for him to recuse himself and for… Read more »
Obviously Chris the grand jury disagrees with your assessment and they are the only ones who would know about what the evidence warranted.
Chris,
The fact that a unanimous decision is not required and that a much lower threshold of proof is required, and they grand jury failed to indict on even the least of the charges in front of them pretty much seals it for me.
You were right about the 75% but you were wrong about everything else. I’m sure though the one thing you were right about is more than enough to soothe your overinflated view of your intellectual superiority.
Chris perhaps you should read this link.
PS..I hope that HTML formatting worked.
Opps…well…sort of…
Thanks SV, I really appreciate that article.
Chris Roberts
It is against my desire to speak in a way that is less than kind, however, I have come to the conclusion that your words are getting more nonsensical with each comment.
I understand that the transcript of what the Grand Judy in the MB case heard will be released. If so, you will have the same information as the GJ had.
Bennett,
That’s exactly right. Which means that no one including Chris, me, or anyone else currently has enough information to say that an indictment was “more than warranted.”
But even when the transcripts are released that still not the same as being there on the grand jury and bearing the responsibility that they did.
Chris, are you assuming that the blacks voted one way and the whites voted the another way? If we later discover, as we have with so many of your “fact” prognostications on this issue, that it was not that monolithic – does that change anything in your view?
We already know that all of the witnesses who testified that Michael Brown was charging at Ofc. Wilson were black – so the monolithism that you’re arguing for has already been at least somewhat debunked.
Tarheel, I have no idea how the vote went. I was just correcting Wylie’s numbers. Accuracy is important, you see, though I admit I wouldn’t expect you to get that.
Shall we go back to the August and September confident comments of one Chris Roberts and check them for accuracy?
Been waiting all day for you to correct the record Mr. accuracy.
Chris,
“I have no idea…”
Maybe you should stop there.
“He was not acting according to his role, one of the problems with how the Ferguson process went. This has already been pointed out by many people.”
Who? Al Sharpton, Benjamin Crump, and MSNBC analysts don’t count.
According to a Wall Street Journal article, leaks from the Federal investigations have let slip that “civil charges would likely be unsuccessful”. I wonder why they think they would be unsuccessful if they have all this evidence that should have secured an indictment of Wilson?
Somebody made a observation last Friday that the president’s executive order was made at a time when something explosive was about to happen that would relegate the executive order to the back of the news cycle. Surely someone is going to mention that prediction.
Yes you did, Dean. 😉
(I wonder if Mr. Roberts will admit that you were right – since certainly he was preparing to call you out if you weren’t)
Actually, I was amused to note that the immigration order had already faded from the news. It lasted all of about a day. No distraction necessary.
Lol!
The esteemed Chris Roberts – often wrong but absolutely never in doubt.
Am I wrong that the immigration piece had already faded from the news cycle? Not that it was never mentioned, but it was nowhere near front and center for more than about 5 minutes.
Yes. It has not faded from the new cycle even today.
Now I will say If you’re watching MSNBC you’re not going to see very much potentially negative about the president.
I assume you’re watching MSNBC – because almost everyone of your talking points are regurgitated from it.
Tarheel,
You assume wrong. But you know what they say about assume…
But at any rate, are you saying immigration is still prominent in the news cycle despite Ferguson, so Ferguson hasn’t distracted from it? Now as already indicated, I disagree – it faded even before the grand jury stole the spotlight – but you do seem to be undermining the argument that Ferguson served to distract from Obama’s executive order.
Chris, you’re right – you’re always right.
I bow to your excellence.
Your intelligence is above reproach
How dare I suggest otherwise.
“Professing to be wise they have become fools.”
Keep talking Chris you’re exposing yourself – good day.
Based on the first bit of your comment, I assume that by that last line you mean I am exposing my genius while other people show themselves fools? I didn’t really expect that comment from you, but I do appreciate it. May even print it and frame it. Will you autograph it for me?
Let me be clear the first line was completely sarcastic – I’m sure you know that given your superior intelligence to everyone else in the discussion and for that matter, in your mind anyway, in the world.
“Let me be clear the first line was completely sarcastic”
No takebacks!
Dear Chris: Are you suffering from inner insecurities so much so that you are willing to frame sarcasm? You are not quite as good at your Atheism as you suppose, and besides we have some real historical lessons in Atheism from the 20th century, namely, the Communistic countries. Talk about slaughtering folks. They really take the cake. And How about your perspectives on the moral rule about such murders? And do you wonder about Stalin’s glare upward, when he passed as his daughter says. Solzhenitsyn also shows us how utterly hopeless the Atheistic cause was in his various writings. Have… Read more »
Here’s a really sad story from the Ferguson rioting and looting. Here’s people who really got hurt.
http://fox2now.com/2014/11/25/natalie-dubose-talks-small-businesses-unrest-in-ferguson/
David
I think we have discovered the Chris Roberts doesn’t fact have a God – despite his protesting – his God is his own self perceived intellect.
*does in fact
Lol. Smart phones! Ugh.