Near the end of Philippians, a letter you could call Paul’s Book on Joy, we get a glimpse of his heart-felt and loving concern for two church ladies in the midst of a disagreement. There is plenty that we don’t know about this situation including what the disagreement was about, what caused it, how long it had been going on, and how it affected others. Whatever the answer to these questions, the issue was significant enough for Paul to publically call out the ladies and urge others in the church to help correct the issue:
I entreat Euodia and I entreat Syntyche to agree in the Lord. Yes, I ask you also, true companion, help these women who have labored side by side with me in the gospel together with Clement and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life. ~ Philippians 4:2-3
Immediately of note, in addressing the problem and urging a solution, Paul affirmed these ladies’ faith, showed appreciation for their work in spreading the gospel, and expressed the need for togetherness. Paul would have known well what Jesus prayed for in John 17:20-26: our unity because such is a great apologetic for the gospel.
It should come as no surprise, then, what surrounds this call to unity in Paul’s letter. In 4:1 he wrote of his love for and joy in the church, and urged them to stand firm in their faith. Then in 4:4-8, Paul urged a rejoicing heart, a humble disposition, a trusting life, and a heavenly-focused mind. Each of these aid greatly in building unity with other believers.
A rejoicing heart (4:4). “Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say rejoice.” If you want a theme verse for Philippians, this would be it. As early as 1:4, Paul started speaking about joy and he never let off the gas. He bookended everything else in the letter with joy. All of the other statements, including brief but deep theological reflections on a life totally committed to the Lord who sold himself out to the humility of the cross to gain his throne, are saturated and surrounded with comments about joy.
The best way I know how to define joy is happiness based in God. This is why joy can even be manifested in the face of trials—though we might hurt and face confusion in the moment, God is doing something better that will ultimately bring about our greatest good: glorification forever together with Jesus. A rejoicing heart pushes forward through the darkness to stay focused on this light.
Often divisions start with grumbling. We think our view is being left out or under-represented. We don’t like what others are doing. We get irritated at the way Ol’ Mr. Smith said something. So we start to grumble, complain, gossip, and divide. But, Paul wrote, “Do all things without grumbling and complaining” (2:14). And what do we find a mere four verses later? “Likewise you also should be glad and rejoice with me.”
Rejoicing in the Lord forces out a lot of the grumbling in our lives. That’s not to say that we will always be in agreement with another person or the other side. We might not see eye-to-eye. It might not be our preference or the way we would have done it. But if we’re rejoicing in the Lord then we are able to approach the situation with a better attitude.
And speaking of attitude… A humble disposition (4:5). Paul wrote, “Let your reasonableness be known to everyone.” I have a note in my Bible from when I preached this to help me remember what Paul had in mind: Reasonableness—a sense of courtesy, not over-concerned about one’s own rights. Paul had spoken about this idea earlier in the letter. He urged the church to complete his joy through unity, the laying aside of selfish ambition, and showing concern for the interests of others (2:2-4).
Humility doesn’t deny that we have our own needs and desires. But humility will “count others more significant than yourselves” (2:3). This is what Jesus meant when he said: if you want to be first, then be a servant to others. The greatest way to see our ambitions met is through serving and self-sacrifice. This seems paradoxical to the way we think the world works, but much of the Kingdom is.
Through serving we show a Christ-centered love for others that creates a bond of trust and helps them be more willing to listen to what we have to say. Through serving we often also find our priorities and ambitions changing. Striving to serve like Christ is transformative to helping us be more like Christ. And that is huge in our fight against fighting against others.
A trusting life. Next, Paul wrote about anxiety. He said instead of being anxious about anything, we should “in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let [our] requests be made known to God” (4:6). The trust here is that God is in control, he knows what he is doing, and he is really, really good (like infinitely really good) at what he’s doing.
Again, back to grumbling and complaining: we tend to do it when things don’t go our way, which means we tend to do it when we feel as if we aren’t in control. Here is a wonderfully freeing secret: you’re not in control. This is hard for the self-made man/woman of the American dream to swallow. The poem Invictus captures well what we desire: “I am the master of my fate; I am the captain of my soul.”
Yet the reality is there are many things we don’t control. How much of our economy is based on what big businesses or other governments do? How much of our safety while driving is based on what the drivers around us do? Despite attempts to be healthy, how many diseases and health problems are based on genetic issues we inherited? How much is our grade on that essay exam based on what the professor feels about what we wrote? On and on and on…
I think many of our problems and conflicts in church and the SBC come down to this issue. Either we are in a position where we think we have control and we’re afraid of losing it; or we’re in a position where we used to have control and we want it back; or we’re in a position where we have no control and we want some.
Again, Jesus’ admonition seems fitting: if you want to be first… Anxiety about control, who has it, or the lack there of will send us into a downward tailspin of disunity, fear, and mistrust. But stepping back and realizing that having control and being in charge shouldn’t be the grand ambition, and realizing that ultimately God is in control of it all will help ease a lot of anxiety. “The peace of God…will guard you hearts and your minds in Christ” (4:7).
A heaven-focused mind. “Finally, brothers and sisters, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is commendable, if there is any excellence, if there is anything worthy of praise, thing about these things” (4:8). On the one hand, the truest, most honorable, most just, purest, loveliest, most commendable, most excellent, and most praiseworthy thing or person we could think about is God. We should gaze oft at his glory and beauty. For “we…beholding the glory of the Lord are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another” (2 Corinthians 3:18).
Yet, also, what do we more often fill our minds with? The angry rants, sexual innuendos, promiscuous happenings, and inane violence, all of which we find in various degrees in politics, tv, books, the internet, etc.? Or with the beauty of nature, imagination soaring literature, praiseworthy deeds by others, the decades-long romance of a Jesus-loving couple quietly holding hands, etc.?
Glimpses of true beauty are tastes of God’s grace and goodness, tastes of heaven, of eternity. These are the very things we are to first look for in others and hope to see in repentance if they are lacking. After all, think of how Paul described love: “It does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things” (1 Corinthians 13:6-7).
When we gaze first at the goodness of God and then second look for the God given goodness in others, it changes our perspectives and invites unity even when we disagree.
Conclusion. There’s more to be said. How do we handle disagreements? How do we approach someone who has offended us? How do we approach someone who has been offended by us? How do we help two other people or groups “to agree in the Lord”? How… how… how…? These will have to be for another day and perhaps another author.
In Paul’s letter of joy, though, I believe we find the foundation we must lay as we seek to pursue answers to these questions. There are plenty of different ideas and desires that we will have which are at odds with others, at least as long as we are on this side of eternity. Yet that doesn’t mean we have to default to insecurity, mistrust, and division.
Instead we can strive for something greater. And it starts with a rejoicing heart, a humble disposition, a trusting life, and a heavenly-focused mind.
Mike, these are some good thoughts and a helpful study of this passage.
In terms of SBC life, it think one of the issues is our lack of trust in one another. Many people are willing to not have control and not be in charge if they trust the people who are leading. It seems to me that we are in a place where many people do not trust leaders for a variety of reasons. Until that trust is rebuilt, we may continue to trust the Lord, but we will not overcome our disagreements.
I agree completely, Todd. In the interest of restoring unity through trust and transparency, I wrote the agenda linked below. After our earlier exchange, in which everyone thought I was only talking about Calvinism, I realized I needed to do a better job of describing the breadth of my concerns.
Calvinization, not Calvinism, is certainly one of these issues, but there are many others. I hope trust can be restored, and with it, unity.
http://sbctoday.com/unity-through-transparency-agenda/
“A committee should investigate whether our entities fairly represent the views of all Southern Baptists. Is the ERLC pushing an agenda to the left of most in the SBC? Does Southern Seminary push the minority view of salvation doctrine? Do our conference speakers oppose SBC ecclesiology? Are we publishing books that disproportionately represent certain doctrinal viewpoints? Do our church planters embrace proportionally the salvation doctrine of our sponsoring churches? Are we drafting new entity leadership from a cross-section of the SBC or systematically favoring a certain segment? Are those embracing the majority position on salvation doctrine in the SBC paying our leaders to influence our institutions toward the minority position? In the interest of restoring balance, let us determine if our leadership is out of step with our membership by forming a committee to research the matter, report findings and propose solutions.”
Rick,
Salvation is only by grace through faith which is not of one’s self.
There is no other way of salvation than to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.
There is not a minority or majority view since there is only one way to be saved. You were saved that way, Paul the Apostle was saved that way. Abraham was saved that way, and so was I.
If you mean by “we”, Lifeway, then I suggest we cut them loose since they publish anything [or just about] that they think will sell.
And as you continue to put forth this minority and majority theme, you show [or at least seem to show to me] that you are more concerned with tribal matters than truth. If the minority position is true, then why stand against it? If it is false, then denounce it. Because it seems to me that your position is what causes dis-unity by making separation where there is none. And if there is separation on the doctrine of salvation, how can we unify when there is disagreement over the VERY core of our fellowship.
You do realize that I am doctrinally discriminated against attending TGC, Founders, T4G, Acts 29, etc.? They have confessional statements more narrow than the BFM that I cannot embrace.
And yet, some of you act like I’M the one who started drawing the lines here. As long as there are all of these Calvinist groups, my friends, there will be this separation that you call disunity.
But Traditionalists did not start this separation. For the love of Lottie Moon, look in the mirror. The two groups exist because the Calvinists got all organized over the past fifteen years and formed groups that exclude people like me.
So now, we finally form a group, and you guys get mad at us for doing it. Get over it.
1. There are two groups.
2. You started it.
Your not excluded from T4G or TGC — you are welcome to attend and hundreds of non-Calvinists do
There are at least 3 groups. Calvinists, Traditionalists, and everyone else. The third is the largest, by far.
Rick, you can start and belong to whatever group you want. Affinity groups are what they are. (in fact, I recall several of us here in discussions throughout the years saying: why don’t you start one? You did, so great!)
But when you start talking about committees to investigate different entities, that essentially sounds like a witch hunt.
And that seems completely out of place for a convention that has historically been made up of Calvinists, what you all have termed Traditionalists, and everything in between. You talk about desiring proportional representation, well it’s a valid question then: how do we decide that and then who actually gets to be on the committee to determine whether or not a school, entity, whatever matches that?
I’d also add: what decade?
It would seem that we SBCers had a much greater percentage of Calvinists in our early years. Then with the influence of revivalism in the mid-to-late 1900s, that swung the other way. Now it just seems maybe it’s swinging back a little.
Both sides have always fit within the BF&M, it’s not surprise that under that from generation to generation we change percentages of more-specific doctrinal stances.
And does this just stop with Calvinism?
It seems that the vast majority of conservative SBCers in the 1900s were staunch pre-millennial dispensationalists. That pendulum seems to be swinging, too. Do we make that a proportional test as well? And if not, then why Calvinism and not this?
We could probably go on with several other things as well.
That’s the problem of litmus tests beyond the BF&M to determine various positions. We could argue over dozens of items, but does that really make us stronger as the SBC?
I love what Bill Mac said. I am neither a Calvinist, nor am I a Traditionalist because I couldn’t agree with their document on the issue of imputed guilt. I am in the third category, as are most of my friends in the ministry.
To clarify what I mean by “doctrinal exclusion,” I cannot in good conscience sign off on their belief statement. Therefore, I am excluded.
I am not suggesting that they would not show me hospitality as a guest. I was shown such hospitality once at a Baptist 21 event I did attend. For that matter, we would show such hospitality to those who sign up for the Connect 316 Banquet, but they would be “doctrinally excluded” by the Traditional Statement from fully identifying with our views.
Doctrinal exclusion is not social exclusion.
Rick,
I confess, I think the Traditionalist doctrine that explains soteriology is inferior to the Calvinist doctrine. But I have not a single problem, because of that, in having Ronnie Floyd as the SBC prez.
The question, it seems, since we are trusting in God to lead us, should we be worried that the wrong God fearing Jesus loving brothers in Christ who are committed to lead the SBC to glorify God are in places of power?
So we ask, who ultimately is responsible for putting these men in positions of authority but God Himself?
Those groups you mentioned, are they clamoring to keep Traditionalists from places of power? Are they complaining or did they ever complain about how there wasn’t enough C’s in power? Was their doctrinal beliefs kept hidden before they were appointed? And now despite, as you claim, their minority position, are they not drawing more people to their events?
When I would go over to SBCToday, it was a mean harsh place to anyone who didn’t walk in lock step with that crowd. It wasn’t a place that fostered unity despite disagreement. Don’t you own that blog? And if so, why do let divisiveness be the prevailing spirit there if unity is what you seek?
Anyone can sign up, pay the registration fee, travel to the location, and enjoy together for the gospel and/or the Gospel coalition conference. There is no exclusion there are no documents of affirmation to sign – there’s no requirement that anyone agree to any set of doctrine in order to attend. There are no guards or bouncers at the doors looking for people do kick out….so Rick either you were just totally clueless about this or you are intentionally being deceptive for the purpose of fighting about something. I am at the point to where I think it is the latter.
Good question. The comment streams are not heavily moderated because of our larger value of transparency and open communication. As long as there is no cussing or direct personal insult, we pretty much let it go. I admit, there are a few characters in the comment stream that can get a little worked up, including a Moderate on one hand and a Presbyterian on the other.
As for your earlier questions, Ronnie Floyd is a GCR guru who is not a signer of the Traditional Statement. If you think he “counts” as being on our side in this, while sponsoring an extension of Southern Seminary at his church, you don’t quite understand where the lines are being drawn here. He is most definitely a part of the SBC Establishment whose record on transparency I am questioning.
My number one point in my agenda article is to open the GCR box. Floyd’s committee is the one that closed it.
My concerns all along have been transparency, fairness and balance in representing the entire SBC, not just the Reform Movement and its megachurch sympathizers like Floyd.
Rick,
BawahahHahahHHHHHaAAaaaaaa.
Oh my that was a serious belly laugh!
Ronnie Floyd? Really? You think he is a “closet calvinizer” or something????
Wow. Todd, Dave Miller, Dean Stuart, adam blosser, and the rest of the group – y’all really have a hard road ahead of you.
Tarheel, my name and picture are dotted up and down comment threads on Voices, we private message each other all the time and you spell my last name STUART.
Did you get your education from a Big 10 school?
My dad said the STUARTS were hog thieves. #imastewart
Tarheel,
Not to cause a problem, but everything I have heard about Dr. Floyd is that he is Calvinistic leaning. Nothing closet about it. He most certainly is not a Traditionalist.
John,
Do you mind citing some evidence for Floyd being a Calvinist? I’ve got to be honest I don’t see it. I’ll be open to being convinced though.
Or maybe we just need to work on our definitions.
Dean, I know that your name is spelled Stewart – I often speak into my phone – and Siri has a mind of her own – between my North Carolina/Virginia accent and her auto correct – there’s no telling what it will post.
No problem, Klyne!
John Wylie,
Ronnie Floyd is not a Calvinist. However, what difference would it make? He has served well in the Big Chair of the SBC.
No, Ronnie Floyd is no more a Calvinist than is Rick Patrick. He’s just not obsessed with their presence in the SBC.
Rick,
Using words like Calvinization is not helping with your portrayal as one who seeks unity.
Let me ask you a couple of process questions….
A committee should investigate … In the interest of restoring balance, let us determine if our leadership is out of step with our membership by forming a committee to research the matter, report findings and propose solutions.”
Who appoints the committee, what shall be the makeup of the the committee and by what standard will the committee determine the majority/minority views relating to soteriology?
How will the questions be asked/framed? Will we leave it up to the pastors of the churches to survey their people and report to the committee where their membership stands on what many of our church members might consider the minutia of theological academic debates?
I know you hate it, but I will bring this up again – given that your several year old group (that you claim is representative of the vast majority of SBC membership) boasts of around 1000 persons from only a handful of churches, a couple former SBC presidents and friends – and the the 9marks breakout at each SBC convention attendees likely rival that – and the 9marks at various seminaries blow that number out of the water – and the T4G conference has 7 or 8 times that number many from SBC churches (one can reasonably presume that more attend these events than that the total number of 316 signatories)…
might it be you who is over assuming that the makeup of the convention is more in line with your soteriology than they might with, say, Dr. Dever?
Another important point – It’s free to sign your thingie – and one does not even have to leave home – but Southern Baptists pay conference fees, hotel and dining bills and travel (sometimes) great distances to attend these events.
Rick: You realize you are just swinging swords in the air don’t you? Calvinism is not leaving the SBC. Your fight is still more a minority than a majority. Not once has it even been a conversation at the SBC meeting itself.
Don’t you think it’s time to fight over something else. Pit Bulls fighting over something this non-essential just isn’t going anywhere and if you guys would tell the truth about that which you are against, it would well….. amaze me. Your fighting against a strawman.
The point, Debbie, is that I do not want Calvinism to leave the SBC. Everybody here just thinks I do. If you read my ten items, only one of them (10%) addresses soteriological proportionality in leadership. I think it’s a concern, but it’s not my only one. It’s not even my major one. Transparency is.
The devil is in the details. Will Calvinism be broadly defined or narrowly defined? I’ve seen it both ways on your site. People have written that no one who isn’t a 5 pointer should call themselves a Calvinist, and in the next post we’ll see anyone whose theology even has a hint of a whiff of Calvinism should be lumped together with the most rabid, cage-phase Dortian 5 pointer. For years non-Calvinists were happy to share 1 point at least with Calvinists (P). But now even that small taint is too much for some people. You may truly want proportionality, but what I fear as a result is a witchhunt.
You seem to want a Traditionalist Resurgence without the grassroots work that the CR architects had to go through to accomplish it.
Who says I want a Traditionalist Resurgence? I want to get in a room with some people and hammer out a way for us to have greater balance and participation across a broader cross-section of Southern Baptists than we do right now. I want balance, not to rid the convention of anybody. I want the kind of transparency I mentioned here: http://sbctoday.com/unity-through-transparency-agenda/
What you are saying is what I mean by Traditionalist Resurgence. You want greater representation at the top levels of the SBC. I think the only way to accomplish that is for you to go about it the same way the CRers did it.
I disagree on that tactic, Bill, because the goals are entirely different. If someone is teaching liberal theology, you want them OUT. There is no place for that in the SBC. That’s the Conservative Resurgence.
However, if one wing of the convention is getting all excited with conferences that have hashtags and t-shirts and hype, and they basically take over the missionary appointments both at home and abroad, along with all the new entity vacancies, along with most of the speakers and platform personalities at the convention, along with most of the new books and curricula, then as long as they are not liberals, you don’t want them OUT of the whole convention.
You just want a little balance. You want to feel at home in your own denomination. You don’t want to feel like you’re in the Twilight Zone.
The CR was about eliminating liberal theology. A TR would be about balancing Calvinist theology with Traditionalism. We just want a place at the table. We don’t seem to matter to the convention anymore. Different concerns. Different tactics. Different time.
Here’s the thing… Those vacancies have been filled by trustees put into place by trickle down committees from the appointments of non-Calvinist SBC presidents.
Maybe that’s a sign that except for a few pockets the issue isn’t a big deal to the convention.
So what then would greater representation look like?
Rick: I understand, but it just seems like you want a brute force method of making things equitable, without getting grass-roots support. It’s not as if the Calvinists staged a hostile takeover. Calvinists, at least in the beginning, were given these posts by non-Calvinists. I understand what you want, I just don’t know how you get there other than organically.
” Until that trust is rebuilt, we may continue to trust the Lord, but we will not overcome our disagreements.”
And why do people trust the Lord?
Because He has shown them He is trustworthy.
And why do people not trust the Lord?
Because He hasn’t [yet] shown them.
How can a leader who has lost trust regain it?
Or, how can he show himself trustworthy?
Verrrrry hard.
maybe easier is a new leader.
Probably not the right place, but I just say that J. D. Greear was nominated for SBC President. Is this true? If so that is a real encouragement and a great choice!
JD Greear. This will be such a unifying nomination. This is the way to bring the SBC back together, once again. This will certainly calm down all the talk about the Calvinist Takeover of the SBC; won’t it?
Wow.
David
I hope it will. J. D. Greear was a faithful missionary in an Islamic country and now a faithful pastor and a great expositor of the Word. Incredibly compassionate and probably rare to have a conversation with him without mentioning the Gospel. Jimmy Scroogins is the guy who recommended him which says a lot. I’ve heard Paige Patterson speak very highly of him as well. Like Ronnie Floyd, this is a fantastic choice.
The man who wrote the book about how bad is to tell people to ask Jesus into your heart? Who implied that it was leading people to a false conversion to talk about Jesus coming into the heart? The man who says that it’s preaching an “easy believism” that’s leading people to a false assurance of salvation, to tell people to ask Jesus into their heart? That JD Greear?
PS. It’s not easy believism to tell people to ask Jesus into your heart, if you stress faith and repentance in your Gospel presentation. In fact, there are many Scriptures, which talk about Jesus living in our hearts thru the Holy Spirit. Thus, it is Scriptural to say that Jesus comes into the heart of the person, who puts their faith in Jesus, who repents and asks Jesus to save them, and come live in their hearts.
I’m not intending this to be snarky, David. Did you read that book? In hearing some of the comments that you’ve made about the sinners prayer I don’t think you’d disagree with JD on that one. It’s actually a really good book on assurance.
Now you might find disagreement with the book–but if I’ve read you correctly I’m not so sure you’d disagree with him.
Mike,
I have no problems with the Sinner’s Prayer, whatsoever, as long as repentance and faith have been emphasized. Of course, someone just saying a prayer, as if it’s a magical formula, won’t save anybody. And, if someone is told to just ask Jesus into your heart, without explaining that it’s asking Jesus into your heart to be your Lord and Savior, then that’s not good, of course. But, it’s not easy believism to lead someone in a Sinner’s Prayer, or tell someone to ask Jesus into your heart.
And, the implication is that those who do lead someone in a Sinner’s Prayer(David Platt) or tell someone to ask Jesus into their heart(Greear) is leading people to a false conversion and false assurance is just wrong. Also, it’s insulting to many Pastors, who are faithfully leading people to Jesus.
David
http://www.jdgreear.com/sinnersprayer
The book’s premise is that if you understand the assurance of salvation, you don’t need to ask Jesus into your heart over and over and over again.
I’m with Mike here, I think most Baptists would agree with the over-arching theme of the book if they can get over their misconception of the title.
Volfan,
David Allen AND Paige Patterson endorsed “Stop Asking Jesus into your Heart.”
In fact, Paige Patterson wrote the forward to it. So you probably should take it up with them. The book is about Gospel Assurance and has helped a lot of people who tend to doubt their salvation. I would encourage you to check it out.
Have you read the book though? Like I said, you might not appreciate the title or the wording but if you listen to what he is saying he is saying exactly what you are saying.
It is a great book. Several of my pastor friends, of all soteriological and theological stripes, and myself read it together during our breakfast discussion group and all found great amounts agreement with it. Vol, it really is a good book.
Don’t judge a book, or its author, by its cover. 😉
I will say that one point of agreement was that we all wished the title were not so provocative.
“Don’t let the provocative first half of the title scare you away from reading this important book! Emanating from his own personal and pastoral experience, yet with feet firmly planted in the sufficiency of Scripture, Greear is far more interested in helping us have genuine biblical assurance of salvation than anything else. He rightly reminds us we must emphasize the absolute indispensability of repentance and faith as necessary for salvation. Though I might quibble over a few things I would express differently, the vast majority of J. D.’s book I wholeheartedly endorse. Timely, engagingly written, and thoroughly practical, it deserves a place on every pastor’s shelf. Buy it! Apply it!”
David L. Allen, Ph.D.
Dean, School of Theology
Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary
Vol-
I will join the chorus. Please read the book. It is in no way a discussion of the sinner’s prayer. It is all about salvation being assured.
Please brother, you are criticizing something you would not want to criticize if you took time to read it. And making yourself look very foolish in the process.
Read the book bro.
Vol.,
I really think that if you ever have an opportunity to talk to JD, you will find that the two of you have much in common, especially your compassion for people and the lostness of our culture. JD Greear, is, as are you, a solid guy who loves Jesus, his family, and his church and has a great zeal reach lost to people with the gospel. God has blessed his ministry in the NC Triangle and beyond.
BTW, the book that has been mentioned several times in this thread really is about helping immature believers reach maturity and have biblical assurance of their salvation. It is a good book.
No, I have not read it. I just saw the title and have seen interviews about it…him being interviewed. And, I am going by what has been said about it. I was going by the discussion in the past. So, if I took it wrong, then I’ll back up about the book.
One gospel-minded leader ( @JimmyScroggins ) nominating another gospel-minded leader ( @jdgreear ) should be great encouragement to the SBC.
-Al Mohler
I just thought yall might want to read this Gospel tweet, so I wrote a Gospel comment to share this Gospel tweet from Dr. Mohler.
David
Volfan,
I don’t think that kind of snarky sarcasm will help unity. YOu seem like on a previous post that you wanted unity through better rhetoric. This comment is not helpful and is actually very telling.
And gospel centered ministers are exactly what we need.
Yes, I am honestly trying to be a unifier. I truly want unity in the SBC. I’m honestly trying to do better with how I come across in blog world, so that people don’t take what I’m writing in the wrong way. But, things like this…
Just pray for me, Brother.
I understand. I won’t pretend like I haven’t been unfair on blogging. Let’s pray for each other.
Vol, leaving JD Greear and his book alone, let me assure you that those who have made everything Gospel or a Gospel issue are just going to have to be able to laugh at themselves. Their overuse of this term makes it fodder for those of us who are gifted with sarcasm.
Now I am going to finish my last cup of Gospel coffee and put the finishing touches on my Gospel centered message for tonight entitled, “Are the Oscars a Gospel Issue?”
Not to say “I told you so” but….
2011
http://www.mikeleake.net/2011/08/what-i-hope-doesnt-happen-to-gospel-centrality.html
Andrew Fuller called it!
I was going to reply with “gospelicious”…
But alas! I was too slow.
Lol. I think we all agree that the word gospel has been somewhat highjacked by people with good intentions (I mean don’t we all want to be “gospel centered”). Truthfully Thoth – just like other words have been somewhat hijacked –
Ya know, like…..wait for it…..”traditional” and “traditionalism”.
Should not all of our methods be open to critique? I think there are fair critiques of Traditional and Calvinistic methodologies and we should be open to those critiques without taking them as personal attacks.
I think it’s a fair critique to note that an emphasis on Calvinist doctrines often leads to a deemphasis on evangelism or that churches that don’t give a public invitation often are ineffective evangelistically, and it’s also a fair critique that the sinner’s prayer (I use the sinners’ prayer regularly) and asking Jesus into your heart can be misleading at times .
Neither group should be offended by those critiques.
Todd: Less effective? I would disagree. Not pushing someone down the aisle or holding them hostage at church, not ending the service until someone walks down the aisle is hardly what I would call effective.
God does the work, we give the message. So in other words God is less effective. I just don’t buy that.
I said “often” not “always” or even “most of the time.” In any case, my point is that our methods should be open to critique and discussion of their effectiveness and merit without taking unnecessary offense or taking it personally even when such critiques are inaccurate or do not apply to you.
Debbie said, “Not pushing someone down the aisle or holding them hostage at church, not ending the service until someone walks down the aisle is hardly what I would call effective.”
Strawman
Vol,
A “strawman”? Yes and one that throws rocks to boot.
I give invitations, both those of an evangelistic flavor and for others reasons also. Sometimes I even invite people to come forward that we might pray for their healing. (guess that makes me a really “hardcore invitation giver”, ya think?)
However, I would never allow someone to be “pushed down the aisle” or “held hostage” and I have never been guilty to “not end the service until someone walks down the aisle.”
Yet, I have had to end invitations when I knew, as did others, that there were those present who should have repented and confessed Christ, but did not. That actually happened this past Sunday. But I know God is gracious and longsuffering and His call to repentance and faith is not limited to the time a man sits in a church building once he has heard the gospel. Therefore, I pray the Holy Spirit works His will in the life of the one who He is calling to Christ.
CB,
” Therefore, I pray the Holy Spirit works His will in the life of the one who He is calling to Christ.”
And He will.
cb, I like it… we in fact give invitations all week long, and even on Sunday!
Amen, CB. There are times when I plead with people to get saved, as well. And, like you, I trust the Holy Spirit to call out to the lost people, who are there.
My daughter got saved after an Evangelist preached and gave an invitation!!! Truly converted and born again! Can you imagine that?
parsonsmike,
I am not sure I know why you made that comment, but if you think there is no reason to pray such prayers, I would ask you direct your attention toward: Ephesians 6:18-20; 1 Timothy 2:1-4; Philippians 4:6; 1 Samuel 12:23; Romans 9:1-3; and Romans 10:1 and beyond for there is more, but this should suffice for the moment.
parsonsmike, if you think it erroneous on my part and that of others to pray for the salvation of sinners, please consider the passages above in context before making a premature judgment upon those of us who believe God fully expects us to pray for the salvation of specific sinners who do not know Christ as Lord.
Let me also state, I know Christ paid the price to be bread for sinners. He Himself is that Bread. I know I cannot take His place as Savior by my prayers, but it is still true that He has mandated His children to enter into His intercessory work for lost souls along with Him, to bear the burden and suffer His travail in prayer for the lives of lost men, women, boys, and girls that they might come to Christ in total awareness of His calling them to repentance and faith.
Not only are we to pray that God meets the daily needs of others and that His will be done on earth as in heaven, but we are also to pray intercessory prayers for the salvation of the lost.
I also believe that as I pray for the salvation of other people that God makes me more sensitive to the lostness of those around me and therefore, the Holy Spirit Himself brings me in contact with individuals that He wants me to share the gospel as one beggar who has been fed the Bread of Life to another beggar who is need of the same Wonderful Bread.
Therefore, I shall pray for sinners as mandated by Christ Himself and trust the Holy Spirit to bring them to newness of life and I ask you to join me in the quest, parsonsmike.
Here is a great invitation from Edwards:
“And let everyone that is yet out of Christ, and hanging over the pit of hell, whether they be old men and women, or middle aged, or young people, or little children, now hearken to the loud calls of God’s Word and providence. This acceptable year of the Lord, that is a day of such great favor to some, will doubtless be a day of as remarkable vengeance to others. Men’s hearts harden, and their guilt increases apace at such a day as this, if they neglect their souls: and never was there so great danger of such persons being given up to hardness of heart, and blindness of mind. God seems now to be hastily gathering in his elect in all parts of the land; and probably the bigger part of adult persons that ever shall be saved, will be brought in now in a little time, and that it will be as it was on that great outpouring of the Spirit upon the Jews in the apostles’ days, the election will obtain, and the rest will be blinded. If this should be the case with you you will eternally curse this day, and will curse the day that ever you was born, to see such a season of the pouring out of God’s Spirit; and will wish that you had died and gone to hell before you had seen it. Now undoubtedly it is, as it was in the days of John the Baptist, the ax is in an extraordinary manner laid at the root of the trees, that every tree that brings not forth good fruit, may be hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Therefore let everyone that is out of Christ, now awake and fly from the wrath to come. The wrath of almighty God is now undoubtedly hanging over great part of this congregation: let everyone fly out of Sodom. Haste and escape for your lives, look not behind you, escape to the mountain, lest you be consumed [Genesis 19:17].”
Les,
Most excellent was the day our Lord compelled Edwards to be the point of the spear that launched the Great Awakening.
Thank you for bringing a portion of that great sermon to the feast and fellowship and a wonderful morsel of divine dinning it is.
CB,
Of course i will join you in that quest.
We should be praying for those around us, as well as those in far flung places, that God might have mercy on them, even as He has had mercy on us.
And not only should we continue to pray, but we should continue to proclaim the Gospel truth, as i know you are eager to do.
“I want to be a more serious-minded Christian, more detached from this world, more ready for heaven than I have ever been in my whole life. I want an ear that is sharp to know the voice of the enemy, whether it comes from religion, politics, or philosophy … I would rather stand and have everybody my enemy than to go along with the crowd to destruction. Do you feel that way?”
-Tozer
Tarheel,
Sometimes I wonder if you have a problem with reading comprehension or if you just enjoy getting the quote wrong and misrepresenting me.
I did not say that Ronnie Floyd was, as you put it, a “closet Calvinizer.” Rather, I said he was (a) not a signer of the Trad Statement, (b) the primary guru of the GCR, and (c) a “megachurch sympathizer” of the Reformed Movement, citing the Southern Seminary extension on his church campus.
A sympathizer is not part of a group—not even a “closet” member (your words, not mine). Rather, he is someone who is very friendly and encouraging of the direction, purposes and goals of a group to which he does not belong.
He may not have the soteriology of the Calvinists, but he has been very supportive of the reform movement. During his watch, the SBC has received both Mahaney and MacDonald into our fold. We have replaced 1,132 older missionaries with 743 younger ones, resulting in a much more Calvinistic IMB. Two of the three officers hired at the IMB by Platt to give executive leadership were reformed, and one of those was not even SBC.
The Reformed Movement rolls on, and Floyd has done nothing to call attention to it or seek to address it in any meaningful way. He just wants to stifle all concerns in the interest of a conversation squelching form of unity. So, yes, a sympathizer.
The primary point I was attempting to make is that Floyd has not been a friend to the Traditionalist cause in the least. All he wants us to do is to be quiet, pray and keep giving money. There does not seem to be any interest in actually listening to our concerns.
Such listening, I believe, if it ever comes, will be the starting point in working toward unity.
Sounds like Ronnie Floyd is a great example of how people who disagree can unite. Sounds like a great Pres. And J. D. Greear is the same way but on the opposite end of the Soteriological scale.
“The Reformed Movement rolls on, and Floyd has done nothing to call attention to it or seek to address it in any meaningful way”
It also sounds like Floyd rightly sees this as a secondary issue and is willing to work with people he disagrees with for the sake of the Gospel. It’s not some competition to him.
He is unconcerned with the perspectives of marginalized Southern Baptists. And you call that unity? See, that’s not unity. It’s “My way or the highway—take it or leave it, but whatever you do, shut up about it.”
I myself, Tarheel, am “willing to work with people [I] disagree with for the sake of the Gospel.” That’s why our CP last year was 9.2% and we gave $30,000 through LMCO.
But “working with” includes giving a little feedback from time to time when you feel there is some discrimination in the workplace or other issues that need attention. These concerns have been falling on deaf ears. I think that needs to change.