The good ship SBC was cruising toward NOLA with excitement – our cruise would be marked by progress in racial reconciliation. Can you remember a year when there was less drama about the presidency when the office was being vacated? Fred Luter will be unopposed, at least by any serious candidate. It will be historic, encouraging, a move in the right direction. We were chugging along with eyes bright and heads high.
Then, suddenly, the good ship SBC hit a rocky shoal when Richard Land decided that it was a good idea for the head of the SBC Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission to step into the quagmire known as the Trayvon Martin tragedy. Why did he feel like he needed to step in that one? I don’t know. But it seems that much of the goodwill that Luters’ election was bringing has leaked out of the good ship SBC.
I’ve never addressed the killing of Trayvon Martin. There is a good reason for that. I don’t know what happened. And neither do you. And Richard Land does not know what happened. I don’t think he should have ever jumped into the fray on this one – especially not when he is seen as representing all of us.
Dwight McKissic was absolutely right in his last post when he said that there is a tendency for blacks to view this one way (another instance of the lack of justice for black Americans) and for whites to view it another way (men like Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton – and perhaps the president – using this tragedy for political gain.) Of course, these are generalizations, but ones that are not divorced from reality.
I don’t know what happened that fateful night. I hope that the full truth comes out and justice is served – whatever that is.
But here is a fact we must face: as we continue to seek racial progress in the SBC, we are going to face moments like this. Race is anything but a dead issue in our culture. We are not just going to join hands, sing kumbaya, and see hundreds of years of racial injustice melt away.
The SBC has made progress. I’m glad we did. We repented of racism. I was there that year and stood enthusiastically to repudiate the shameful history of our denomination and to ask God’s forgiveness for it. Last year, the EC presented a very good report with recommendations for dealing with race in the SBC. The election of our first black president will make another statement of the intent of this denomination to navigate new waters.
But it is silly to act as if the racial problem was solved by repenting and or by the election of Fred Luter. Those are steps in the process, but they are not the culmination. There are still racists among us. They may be less prominent now and they may have to hide their views, but they are there. And blacks still struggle for inclusion in the higher echelons of SBC leadership. A couple of years ago at the convention, Dwight McKissic pointed out to me that every person on the podium during the entire SBC was white. I’d never even noticed until he told me.
The racial problem in the SBC will be solved when black pastors and people have a sense that they are full partners in our convention and in its leadership. We all hope and pray that such a day will come. That day has not come yet. We’re a little closer. Hopefully, we will be a little closer next year. Southern Baptists turned a blind eye to the evil of slavery, to segregation and discrimination and racism. God is beginning to open our eyes and we must not ever close them again.
We must continue the process until the battle is won, regardless of how long it takes.
It is perhaps arrogant for me to attempt to “set the course” for the SBC in racial matters. I’m a white guy from a predominantly white area (over 95%) who pastors a predominantly white church in Iowa. I hold no office and do not have plans to run for any in the future.
But I am going to give my opinion here and tell you what I think we need to do in the days ahead to continue to process of repudiating our past and forging a future free of racism.
1) White folks, it is OUR job to drive this process.
One of the shameful truths of American history is that blacks had to demand their rights; had to march for them, protest for them and fight for them. Our constitution says that all human beings have been endowed by their Creator with rights that should never be taken away. We took away from black people the rights that God gave them, instead of recognizing their full humanity and equality.
The church cannot take the pattern of the culture. Dwight McKissic has been a voice of conscience for our convention, and I love and appreciate him for it. But Dwight should not have to demand what God has decided. Jesus came to die for people from every tribe and language on earth. “Red and yellow, black and white, they are precious in His sight.” Black Baptists ought not have to beg for the equality that is already theirs in Christ.
In the history of the Southern Baptist Convention, it was whites who condoned slavery and racism and it is whites who should lead out in correcting the problem. Blacks ought not have to force their way into the symbolic doors of the convention, but whites ought to throw those doors open, invite them in and hug them (symbolically – I’m not much of a hugger) as they step inside. It is our job to root out every last vestige of racism and discrimination from our convention.
Whites did the damage. Whites need to fix the problem!
2) This is a process, not an action.
Repentance was important. Electing Fred Luter is important. There are many who think that the name-change proposal can be an important step in the process (while others disagree). But there is not a single action that solves the problem. There’s not a resolution we can pass, not a motion we can make that will solve the problem.
It is a process of reaching out, of making friends, of breaking down barriers day by day, year by year. It is like a marriage – a commitment that lasts a lifetime.
3) We must take an unequivocal stand against racist churches in the SBC
I saw tweets a couple of weeks ago that blew my mind. A prominent leader announced that he knew of SBC churches where blacks were not welcome and could not become members. I knew that was true 20 or 30 years ago. I pastored in an area of the rural South where racism was rampant and unashamed back in the late 80s and early 90s. I know of a church in Florida that was blatantly racist. But I thought this was a thing of the past.
I don’t want to be in fellowship with churches like that. It makes me mad that racists would pervert the message of the Cross by acting as if the fountain filled with blood is for whites only.
We need to do something about this. I’m not a convention operations expert. But we need to find a way to say to churches that discriminate on the basis of race that they are not welcome among us. Until they repent of their sin, we don’t want them in our fellowship.
Can you be an exclusively white “Great Commission” church? I think not.
4) We need to continue the process the EC articulated last year.
It’s pretty simple. We need to take proactive steps to include blacks and those from other ethnic groups on boards of trustees and in leadership positions around the SBC. We need to keep on opening the door, and welcoming them not only into the fellowship but into the leadership.
5) We have to clean up the Richard Land mess.
Richard Land set the process back with his comments. I do not believe that Richard Land is racist. But his comments were foolish and ill-advised. What can be done? Here are my suggestions.
- A truly repentant apology might be a good start. Land’s apologies were less than convincing to a lot of people, and did not evidence, in my opinion, much repentance.
- Perhaps Land could reach out to Fred Luters and Dwight McKissic and a few other black leaders and talk things through. Face the music. My impression of these men is that they are not vindictive nor do they want to hurt anyone. If he would reach out to them directly, and follow that up with a statement, it might go a long way to cleaning up the mess.
- On the other hand, it may be time for Dr. Richard Land to do what noble warriors have done through the centuries and fall on his own sword. If he is not willing to help clean up the mess he created, maybe he should walk away from it so others can clean it up. He is pretty close to retirement age. That time may have come.
We need to get the good ship SBC back off the shoals and chugging along toward its destination. We need to do what is necessary so that NOLA 2012 will be remembered historically as a turning point in SBC history – for good reasons.
May God grant that!
Great post, Dave. I especially enjoy #3. Making great strides in the public arena, (e.g., electing Fred Luters as president, cleaning up the Land mess, appointing minorities to leadership positions, etc.), is important, but small, local churches are the lifeblood and the local face of the SBC in many communities, and if racist churches are allowed to carry the SBC banner in their communities, then I’m afraid all of the accomplishments in the larger, public arena will be for naught.
May I get myself into more trouble and speak up in favor of racist churches? For the record, I think we all here agree racism is wrong. However: Many of the churches we pastor were once racist churches. Now they are not. Should they have been kicked out of the convention? We are all immature and sinful. We all need time to learn, grow, mature. There is real hope for those racist churches. I know of a White SBC church in Houston that had a pro-segregationist meeting at the church in the 1950s. I find it a little humorous that… Read more »
David: Might I ask if you meant something like this: “I recognize that the desire to reach for an immediate correction in external behavior borders on being overwhelming, but I also know only God can change the heart and that God is a God of reason. We ought to be prepared to be both vocal in our prophetic challenge against racism and patient in our willingness to wait on God to bring about the change in the heart as that reason is planted and springs forth a harvest of 20, 50, and 100-fold.” As you already hinted: the parable of… Read more »
David, would you say the same about a church that embraces homosexuality?
Micah, I second that question!
The SBC and its state conventions will jump over-themselves trying to kick out a pro-homosexual church, or a pro-women pastor church. But when it comes to racist churches, there is complete and total silence. A “white only” church is just as sinful and wrong as a “its okay to be homosexual” church. The fact that people are willing to remove one, and not the other, smacks of hypocrisy.
Micah,
Good, tough question. I had even wondered if someone would ask this.
My answer is no. But I don’t have time now to do much defending of my view.
David R. Brumbelow
David, I don’t agree with you, but as always I appreciate the way you defend your position with grace.
Micah, to throw in my two cents, the idea of racism is persecution of someone who has no choice in the matter. You are born with your ethnicity, your family and your place or origin, you have nothing you can do about it. For a homosexual, they have a choice to pursue that tendency, or to even share it. You can’t hide your skin color, but no one really needs to know your sexual orientation. I am sure there are many believers who struggle in the area of sexual sin, be it homosexual or heterosexual, but you don’t have to… Read more »
Dan,
I think the reason Micah was asking wasn’t dealing with whether racism was equivalent to being against homosexuality, but why churches condone racism would be given “time to self-correct” when the SBC hasn’t done the same with churches who condone homosexuality.
I am simply saying that it’s different, it’s not an apples to apples comparison. One is correcting for a sin of not accepting someone who is unable to do anything about their condition. The second is correcting from allowing someone who made a choice to embrace a lifestyle. I am not saying that we shouldn’t give grace, but I don’t think they are really comparable. Racism is a sin and it hurts someone in a place they have no control over. We shouldn’t hate those who are in a homosexual lifestyle, but we can’t look at it on the same… Read more »
Dan, I guess what the question is is: 1) Church A practices racism. (whether through informal actions like asking visitors to go somewhere else or actually having bylaws that enforce such) Church A refuses to repent and take steps to correct this. 2) Church B condones homosexuality (whether informally or in public declarations). Church B refuses to repent and correct this. Why should we give a pass to Church A while we kick out Church B? (I don’t think either would actually be in friendly cooperation with the SBC based on their stances and actions.) I think the biggest difference… Read more »
I am not sure about it either, and I do understand the point. I think we have a more clear cut biblical example from 1 Corinthians when it comes to sexual sin and condoning that sexual sin. The racism is more muddy, but it’s a sin. From there, I am worried that we begin to dis-fellowship over other items. It is hard to be cut and dry, I agree with Dave, it needs to stop, but I do agree with you that it’s hard to define. The church condoning homosexuality is more cut and dry in my mind because of… Read more »
David, I would like to challenge this statement. “White Southern Baptists were wrong in their racial attitudes in the late 1800s and early 1900s. I’ve got news – so was virtually every other white person of whatever denomination and whether they lived in the North or South. The SBC was not unique in this area.” The SBC was most certainly unique in its racial history. What other prominent denomination was born in racism? We have a unique history. We were the dominant church in the segregationist states and history reveals way too many SB pastors who went with the flow… Read more »
Dave, You are wrong on this. Virtually everyone in America (North and South) in the late 1800s and early 1900s was, by the standards of today, racist in their thoughts and actions. You can even read it in the congressional records. A biography of Jefferson Davis pointed out he believed in the superiortiy of the white race till the day he died, but then points out virtually everyone else, North and South, did in that day. That even includes the great president Abraham Lincoln. Most every denomination in America split North and Southin in the 1840s and 1850s over slavery… Read more »
David, I don’t know of any other prominent denomination that has our history.
But Southern Baptists and their churches were havens of racism right up until 20 years ago, or so. Yes, the culture has shifted and right now, a racist in the SBC would be ostracized, but such was not so in the recent past.
Yes, I believe that those churches should have been kicked out of the SBC. Actually, I believe that the whole founding of the SBC was a sham and a shame. Our forefathers were not ignorant. They started the SBC over the right of slaveholders to be missionaries and take their slaves with them on the mission field. Can you imagine anything more egregious? It isn’t like they didn’t know it was wrong. Northern Baptists vehemently opposed them and they split over it. 15 years later, we have secession and 600,000 people are killed. What if Baptists would have repented then… Read more »
I think that is my chief point. I love Dwight McKissic, and I don’t think that he is the sit back and wait kind of man. But on this issue, we ought to be doing the heavy lifting.
Did I read you right? Are you saying that the SBC is responsible for Hitler?
Tim, he said that Hitler used the racist (and predominantly SB) South as an example. He did not say that the SBC is responsible for Hitler.
That is an irresponsible misreading of what Alan said.
You can do better.
Brother, He did not use Hitler as an example. He appears to say that Hitler was a consequence of Jim Crow which was a consequence of baptists which was a consequence of the reconstruction which was a consequence of the civil war, which was a consequence of southern baptists not taking a stand. This kind of writing makes it appear to folks that do not know us that we are nothing more than a bunch of racist skinheads. I’m not sure how it furthers the kingdom to caricature us in such a way. If I were a lost person reading… Read more »
Tim, he said, “He actually used the racist South as an example for his work in Germany. South Africa followed our lead too.” Hitler used the South as an example.
You are caricaturing what he said.
Calm down, Tim, stop escalating the discussion into realms it does not need to go, or your future comments will be deleted.
We aren’t going to go where you seem to want to go.
Tim, it is an historic fact that Hitler used the American South as an inspiration for his racist policies. So did South Africa. Whatever role we played in the support of racial divisions in the South had an effect beyond the South. It is not hard to make that case. A racist is as a racist does. We should get over ourselves and admit what has happened. It would actually be better for us than to keep trying to act like it wasn’t a big deal. For example, Baptists in Mississippi in 1860 were lobbying for a resumption of the… Read more »
Brother, There is no “we” to it. I didn’t live back then. Are there any resolutions or policies adopted by the convention that are racist? If there are then bring them out and we’ll own up to it. I’m just now aware of racist policies, resolutions etc from any era but if there are then I’d like to know. The convention meets once a year and its agencies are the “we” for any generation. Individual churches are responsible for their sins whether they be baptist, methodist etc. A handful of churches that have a racist member or two aren’t “we.”… Read more »
Tim B,
You are right. You did not live back then. I did not live back then. A fearful question might be; What if I had lived back then? What would my position be? I don’t know the answers to those questions and neither do you.
Tim B, you and I live right now. And it is right now that “we” have a real and identifiable problem with racism in the SBC and “we” are the folks who need to deal with it.
Tim B, I say “we” because those were my ancestors and who I have fallen in line with theologically. So, I am affected by their sin. The church that I grew up in in South Mississippi harbored members of a lynch mob 30 years earlier. Some of them might have still been in the church. The community knew who they were but nothing was ever done. They never faced justice or discipline. That is the church that licensed me to preach. It was a very prominent church of around 1000 members back before that was common. As for percentages, Baptists… Read more »
I disagree with you, TIM B., this: “There is no “we” to it” You cannot be a member of the Body of Christ in isolation, without need for the others, or without suffering when they are in some kind of trouble. So some Christian people did the wrong thing . . . and you want to distance yourself from them. I can understand that. But is that possible? In Christ, ‘we are all members of one body’. . . and in the Body when someone does wrong, everyone suffers. But then something happens . . . people come and surround… Read more »
Well David R. Brumbelow, If you burn today I am going to burn with you. I agree with every word you have stated in comment #2. Dave Miller, To a great degree your post is a good post, an excellent post. I believe the purpose (if I understand the purpose) of your post is right, it is good, and it calls for a true justice relating to biblical equality of humans before a just and righteous God. Yet, David R. Brumbelow’s comment rings with great truth also. His comments have great validity relating to the content of your post Dave.… Read more »
Micah’s point was an excellent one.
Forget about homosexuality for a moment.
The SBC has taken a “hardline” position against churches with women pastors. Meanwhile, no action has been taken against churches with racist membership policies, etc. That’s a valid observation.
Dave, curious to know if you were familiar with Bryant Wright’s efforts in 1995? I know I wasn’t. Here’s an interesting story:
http://forums.baptistlife.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=9924#p134152
I admire his commitment to this important issue. He deserves more credit.
“Maybe for once, we could discuss such a thing on this blog without our swords and shields, checking egos at the door and be reflections of He who bought us with blood.” Agreed, CB. I have stated many times that it is easy for those in this generation to denounce racism because it costs us nothing. But, we don’t see the issues happening right in front of us. We are all guilty. You can look at every generation, including our own, and see what they missed and what they wrongly blessed. We will have to answer for our own sins… Read more »
Alan, I do not disagree. Notice my response to Tim B. above. Alan, you and I live in the arena every day. You are in Montgomery, AL. I am in BIrmingham, AL. You know where I am and I know where you are. I know your efforts to fight racism and bigotry (and the religious machine) and you know mine. The two of us do not have the ease to pontificate about racism and its evil consequences. We live in it. We minister in the arena of racial tension every day. Your church integrated and so did mine. Yet, we… Read more »
Agreed, CB. Montgomery is experiencing massive white flight with around 30,000 whites having fled the city in the past 10 years to outlying communities in the north and east. When you talk to them about why they moved, many of them snarl and with the utmost contempt they talk about getting out of the city and away from bad influences. Churches in the city are drying up because they are made up of almost all white senior adults. Home values plummet and neighborhoods decay because as soon as an area begins to be inhabited with blacks, the whites leave and… Read more »
“White Christians are consolidating in megachurches where they will get their needs met or they are leaving town to be with those like them to enhance their way of life.” OK Alan, Now you have squarely hit the problem of closet racism in the SBC in the head with an axe and split its rotten body all the way down to the gut. Also, the pastors of these “White-Flight” churches are heralded as “great evangelical leaders of our day” at conventions and Bible conferences. Therein lies the putrid gut-rot of the hypocrisy of the contemporary man and woman in the… Read more »
CB, you said, “Now you have squarely hit the problem of closet racism in the SBC in the head with an axe and split its rotten body all the way down to the gut.” This was my intention all along and it is what we don’t want to face. It is easy to denounce racism while we move to our 3,500 square foot house in the bedroom community and attend our nice megachurch separated from the issues that could make our lives uncomfortable. The real truth is that we never changed – we just morphed in the manifestations of our… Read more »
Now Alan,
We are once again on the same page.
You stated, “… we call our position good and godly.”
Some actually dress it up in piety and religious ceremonialism and say, “We were led to plant this church here in the midst of so-and-so and look how God has blessed our faithfulness, A-Men”
You have heard that and I have heard that. Speakers at conventions are introduced in a similar manner.
“You have heard that and I have heard that. Speakers at conventions are introduced in a similar manner.”
And they will be again in New Orleans as we elect Fred Luter as president and call people to more missions, more evangelism, and more support of the CP, while we simultaneously undercut our ability to accomplish these things by fostering and celebrating the attitudes that keep us from true discipleship and mission. We cut off our nose to spite our face and blame the knife in our hand.
CB & David, I can assure you no “low blow” was intended. In my mind both homosexual behavior and racism are graphic sins which, when embraced on a corporate level, should engender the same response from the SBC. I think churches should be disfellowshipped that practice either/or. I was just curious if David agreed with me, I wasnt trying to stir up a fight. You don’t agree that they are equal, and I affirm your right to be wrong. 😉 CB, you’ve already established that you have problems choosing the right college to root for, so I’m used to you… Read more »
I have to say that I am wholeheartedly with Micah on this one.
Although he also roots for the wrong college football team.
Micah and Matt, We will just have to disagree. Maybe we see this as we do because of where we minister. Nonetheless, I have always appreciated even the honorable way you guys disagree with me–without bloodshed. I think that is the only way we as Southern Baptists will ever make progress related to racism in our ranks. And I do have a pathos and pity for you both every Fall when the leaves turn and the B-B-Q pits light up the evening and the sound of ROLL TIDE ROLL!! is heard throughout the Southland, causing fear to grip the hearts… Read more »
Micah,
Yes and Amen!!!!
Dwight
David B.,
“May I get myself into more trouble and speak in favor of racist churches?” […”speak in favor of racist churches?” Say it ain’t so, Joe?]
“For the record, I think we all here agree racism is wrong.” [Thank God.]
Dwight
Dwight M.,
You referred to my comment and then your short statement,
[…”speak in favor of racist churches?” Say it ain’t so, Joe?]
“Speak in favor of racist churches,” standing alone sounds way out of line.
But taken in context with the rest of my statement (comment #2), I stand by it.
David R. Brumbelow
David B., Not only is their an admission of racist churches–according to CB in much larger numbers than we care to admit–but now we have SBC pastors who are willing to openly defend racist churches. These actions make the ’95 apology a joke, and make the SBC very unappealing to churches who are interested in combining forces with a Kingdom-driven denomination to partner in missions. I can appreciate your honesty. But it is quite disheartening to know that such pastors and churches currently exists in the SBC. How can we expect others to take us seriously regarding the Great Commission–that… Read more »
I can understand your feeling in this matter, Dwight. But I would say two things:
1) The number of racist churches is much smaller than it once was.
2) The number of people willing to put up with that kind of thing is much smaller than it once was.
The battle may not be won, but the tide of battle seems to be in the direction of intolerance of racism in the SBC.
Dwight McKissic, First, I do not believe what I’ve said makes the 1995 apology a joke. I voted for it and was sincere when I did. By the way, an apology pushed by Richard Land and the ERLC. The way you interpret an issue does not necessarily mean that is the way it is. There are all kinds of reasons not to go root out and bully a small backcountry church somewhere and beat them over the head about our perception of their racism. They may not have progressed to where they ought to be, but that may be true… Read more »
I am probably an absolute fool for entering this thread again, but I did state to David R. Burmbelow, that if he burned on this issue, I would burn with him. So here I am. If I am a fool, then so be it and the devil can take the hindmost parts with the rest of it. Dwight, It is my contention that David R. Brumbelow made the original statement in question here in hopes for righteous men to have an opportunity to go into some of these churches in the SBC which currently hold unrighteous positions of racial discrimination… Read more »
David B., If we are going too accommodate and defend “racist churches”–your words. not mine–what then was the objective of the apology? Your arguments for accommodation and toleration sound eerily familiar to arguments given by the SBC during the civil rights movement. Dr. King found them unacceptable then, he would also find them unacceptable now; and so do I. I read Dr. Matson’s book in the late ’80’s. Great read. I referenced it in a book I wrote also during that time entitled: “BEYOND ROOTS: IN SEARCH OF BLACKS IN THE BIBLE”. You can have the last word if you… Read more »
C. B. Scott,
Thanks for the kind words and for not leaving me hanging.
David R. Brumbelow
Dwight McKissic, You said, “If we are going to accommodate and defend ‘racist churches’ – your words. not mine – what then was the objective of the apology?” Maybe that the majority apologized, while pulling the others behind them. And frankly, not everyone who voted against the apology would qualify as a racist. Some sincerely believed since they had in no way aided and abetted slavery and segregation, they had no reason to apologize. I disagree with them, but neither do I call them racists. I admit some of my words and actions seem contradictory. I am proud of my… Read more »
Now those were the words of a man of God, a real one.
Thank you David R. Brumbelow.
Oh, lest I be misunderstood….again. I consider Dwight McKissic to be of the same nature. That is why I like him.
It will take men, real men like these two I noted here in this comment to rid the SBC of the ghost of racism. May God increase their tribes among us: Red, Yellow, Black, and White.
I have had a few discussions with some of my fellow young African Americans ,under the age of 40, over the past weeks. We have had many encourage us to leave for other conventions that are making racial harmony a priority for the sake of the gospel to show that Christ really has broken down the dividing wall of hostility. We no longer want to just assimilate, but to celebrate the diversity of our various God-given cultures. One person asked,”why should I stay when I feel as if l’m putting new wine into old leaking wine skins”?
For almost all of my life, my dad – a full-time professor/administrator – has done supply preaching and interim pastorates in Indiana/Kentucky (3), West Virginia (3), Georgia (14 years), and Texas (7 years). He retired from doing interims a couple of years ago when he was exhausted from bladder cancer treatments. He’s now a Sunday School teacher. I’ve grown up hearing many stories (and experiencing first-hand) about the types of churches that Nathan Finn, Russell Moore and Alan Cross and others have described. I’ve visited many of those churches. Some didn’t invite my dad back after he preached one of… Read more »
Big Daddy,
Did you read my comment in #46 or are you really that bigoted toward me in your profile of me that you cannot acknowledge one thing in which I agree with you or you with me?
Sima,
May I ask to which other “convention” you would go?
May I also state; Now is not the time to go. Now is the time to stand.
Um, CB, I was responding to the exchange between Dwight and David B.
There is nothing that I wrote which would indicate that my reply had anything to do with your comments.
My comment wasn’t about you.
The Artful Dodger you are Big Daddy.
OK, interact with the comment then if you will? Also, I left a response to you in comment #99 a couple of nights ago.
OK,
I don’t disagree with what you wrote in #46.
I do agree that it takes leadership from within a church to change that church. If the pastor, deacons and congregation are resistant to change, pressure from outsiders is pointless.
BUT, local associations and state conventions have a responsibility too. They have a responsibility to hold their affiliated churches accountable to – at the minimum – basic core values.
I would say that a racist church is not really a church. It’s – to use your words – a “social club.”
We aren’t talking about rooting out closet racists. We are talking about correcting churches that are officially racist. I can’t understand the soft response on this, as if racism is this piddly little sin that people will just grow out of in time. But we’re ready to dive into people’s bedrooms and root out sexual sin wherever it may be found.
CB, In response to comment #46, I somewhat agree: because for the most part Anglo believers and pastors function and socialize in different worlds from African American pastors, the major problem we have in conversations like these are communication and trust. I remember reading David B’s book several years ago, but quite frankly I don’t remember him. I’ve been meaning to order his book on alcohol, but haven’t as of yet; or if I did I haven’t read it. I am impressed with reviews of his alcohol book. I also believe that a biblical argument can be made for total… Read more »
David R. Brumbelow, Wherever you are out there tonight, I believe Dwight has well placed the ball in your hands and is giving you the shot. I think his comment is fair. Therefore, I ask you, with whatever humbleness I can scrape up, please be willing to review the sentence to which Dwight is in reference and make a modification that will solidify your heart’s position on the matter giving no room for misinterpretation. I really believe that if men will step up, good can come and the SBC can deal with its ghost of racism that continues to haunt… Read more »
Big Daddy,
You stated, “BUT, local associations and state conventions have a responsibility too. They have a responsibility to hold their affiliated churches accountable to – at the minimum – basic core values.”
OK, for the sake of a valid dialogue, let’s agree that your declaration is correct.
Now, I ask you, as I did Smuschany and maybe one or tow others in this thread; How do associations and state conventions hold affiliated churches accountable? What do we do, in an orderly fashion, to bring about this accountability?
Bill Mac,
No one has stated it is a “piddly little sin.” Who has made that statement on this thread?
The question is; how do we do what is right relating to the problem?
How about request a meeting with the church to discuss the problems, urge the church to change/repent, continue to meet with the church. And after a period of time, if the church has no plans to change its evil ways, then disfellowship.
Big Daddy, That may be what needs to be done. It is kindred to the Matt. 18 principle. Of course, that will have to be fleshed out, so to speak. Then it will take some Lech Walesa style solidarity among the affiliated churches to pursue the consequences for a continuance of a local church in the sinful position that brought about the rebuke and call for repentance. Local Baptist pastors will have to become fully committed to change and then cowboy-up for the hard road that will come with such an action. Nonetheless, it will be worth the cost and… Read more »
CB: “Piddly little sin” was my own phrase to make the point that it seems like people are willing to be soft on racists and ready to bring the hammer of God’s wrath down on homoesexuals. As if racism is technically a sin, but one that need not be confronted strongly, but will just go away if we wait long enough. Nobody wants a witchhunt. We shouldn’t be “witchhunting” for any sins. We shouldn’t be looking for reasons to throw churches out of the SBC. But if a church that forbids non-white members rightly belongs in the SBC, then Luter,… Read more »
David, I think it is time to tell racist SBC churches to fish or cut bait. If they want to continue to discriminate on the basis of race, we cannot stop them. But I think it is time to tell them that if they want to do that, they are not going to have a voice in the SBC.
I don’t think they have a voice on this issue in the SBC.
Today on this issue, a racist church is obviously out of the mainstream.
David R. Brumbelow
that term ‘racist Church’
seems like an oxymoron . . .
Thanks Dave,
If we do not do follow your suggestion, than the statement issued by the ERLC in response to Dr. Land’s commentary is false: The SBC is harboring racists.
Meant to write “If we do not follow…”
When do we stop dealing with the race issue? Is the problem only with Caucasians and African-Americans? After all, the Native Americans are kept on reservations and I do not see anything being done about reconciling with these people groups nor do I see any resolutions to reconcile with them. What about the Mexican-Americans? Sure we have Hispanic initiatives because of an influx of people coming across the borders. (Incidentally, my grandfather swam across the Rio Grande in 1915) However, they used to have all of Texas before their land was taken from them. And what about the Irish-Americans or… Read more »
Actually, Southern Baptists have done quite a bit in this area. I do not agree with your assessment of either Dr. Land’s apologies or of Dwight McKissic’s blog posts, but I do agree that the solution is the transformation that Christ brings. Here is the difference. The SBC has a unique history. We did not thrive in a racist system, we started because of it! We were born in racism, in the oppression of black people – it is part of our denominational DNA. Therefore, we have to focus on correcting it. When I say “racial reconciliation” I am primarily… Read more »
I appreciate your opinion, Dave. However, just because Land made a mistake does not mean that he ought to be fired or lose his position or whatever some may think. If this is the case, then ought not all of us be fired or lose our positions? What about all of the other leaders in our SBC? Should they all be canned simply because they have said or done some things that were offensive? After all, we have all made mistakes and had to eat some crow. I also understand your point about the issue that this “is part of… Read more »
I think that if Land loses his job, it will be over the issue of plagiarism, which is a serious ethical breach.
I think his racial comments were unwise and destructive. I do not believe he needs to lose his job over them, if he would take either of the steps I mentioned – a true apology (which I still maintain his was not) or reaching out directly to some black SBC leaders to correct things.
That is what is needed.
I am not trying to drum up the past. If you look at the SBC today, it still does not represent its community. It’s not like we are reaching into centuries past to reopen old wounds. These wounds are pretty fresh.
I appreciate your opinion, Dave. My prayer is that our SBC will do the right thing. Dr. Land has done the right thing in my opinion as I cannot read his heart any more than anyone else can and know whether or not he meant his apology. I am not sure if getting a few “black leaders of the SBC” would solve the problem. It continues to fuel the problem because if you do not have the “right” leaders present, then there will be someone who will inevitably say that they were not asked to be a part of the… Read more »
I enjoyed the discussion as well.
Dave, I take exception to your comment that “We were born in racism”… The SBC was not founded to further the cause of “Racism”, and those who even suggest this are either ignorant of our history or intentionally slandering our forefathers for political gain within the SBC today. No Sir… “The SBC was not born in Racism… It was born in Missions!” The whole issue was over Southern Baptist desire to send Missionaries (a noble desire) and the Northern Baptist refusal to appoint them because of their views on slavery. The issue of slavery or racism was not a motivating… Read more »
Greg Alford,
OK. Let’s say we as a body were not born in racism philosophically.
Yet, would you not agree that we were born into a racist culture that greatly affected our birth, childhood, adolescence, adulthood and continues to haunt us in our latter years?
Whether born into racism or not, Southern Baptists played a significant role in shaping southern culture since its inception and throughout much of the 20th century. It’s hard to deny the role of Southern Baptists to in perpetuating the racist status-quo.
The issue wasn’t just their “views of slavery.” The issue was whether one could be a missionary and also be a slaveholder. A little bit of difference between “views” and “actions.”
Mine was a reply to Greg Alford. I’m in agreement with CB here.
BDW,
Southern Baptist played a role in shaping southern culture… Yes, and so did the Methodist, Presbyterians, and Joe’s Bar.
Southern Baptists played a great role than did the Methodists, Presbyterians, etc. etc.
That’s the point.
CB,
Yes, I would agree with that…
BDW,
How are the Southern Baptist more responsible/guilty than the Methodist, Presbyterians, and Joe’s Bar. Can you give me some evidence of this, or is this just something that feels good to say?
Southern Baptists were the most dominant and influential religious group in the south. Southern Baptists dominated the halls of state legislatures throughout the South.
I’m not making this up to “feel good” or something. There’s more than a few southern historians who have reached this conclusion, conservative and liberal alike.
Is it possible that we can agree that the Christian bodies mentioned here all had their problems?
Is it also possible that we who are Southern Baptists need to look more toward our own house in this specific dialogue than the homes of our neighbors in the Christian community?
BDW, I know you are not making this up 🙂 But what I am saying is that I think we often like to exaggerate our own feelings of importance and actual influence in society. Many of these state legislatures throughout the South may have been Southern Baptist, (occasionally attending a SBC Church) but can you quantify for me how much their opinions were molded by the official positions and teaching of the Southern Baptist Convention? Yes, there has been racism in the south… Yes, Southern Baptist have been guilty of racism… But, no one can prove to me that this… Read more »
Greg, many will say “Lord, Lord,” but Jesus will say, “Depart from me, I never knew you.” I cannot give assurance to anyone of their salvation – I can only affirm their confession of faith in Christ as being sound. But, Jesus also said that we are to judge a tree by its fruit. Of the fruit is rotten, what does that say of the tree? Now, as a qualifier, I will also say that God has mitch grace for us. It seems possible for sin in one area to not be all encompassing of the whole person. In other… Read more »
Greg, Please explain this further because if you see it differently, I really would like to understand. Baptists in the South wanted to appoint a slaveholder who wanted to take his slaves with him onto the mission field to minister to Native Americans. Northern Baptists did not want to appoint this man, not because they disagreed with missions, but because they did hit think a slaveholder should take his slaves with him on the mission field. Upset about this encroachment, Baptists in the South split from Baptists in the North and went ahead and appointed slaveholding missionaries. Both Baotists in… Read more »
Alan, What is the SBC? Is the SBC not in essence a “Missions Organization”… If the SBC was actually the NADCP (National Association for the Denigration of Colored People) I would agree with you that we were born in Racism. But it is not. Are you actually saying that all slaveholders were morally bankrupt and incapable of actually being called of God for Missionary work? I mean if you are going to disqualify someone from Missionary work you had better have a very good (and dare I say Biblical) Reason… Alan, let me go one step further… If these men… Read more »
Greg Alford,
Are you purposely ignoring my question? It is a valid question.
CB,
Just answered it above…
Yes, I would agree with that…
Greg, Yes, I would say that we should disqualify from missionary service the man who wants to bring his slaves along with him. I will go out on a limb and say that. As for whether or not they are Christians, I cannot say definitively. But, I will say that if you hate your brother, then the love of God is not in you. 1 John speaks along those lines. I cannot say that every slaveholder hated his slaves, but to own another human being as your own property for life – and to own his/children and to divide with… Read more »
All,
I guess what bothers me “more than a little” about what many of you have written here is that you appear willing to judge, and call into question, the motives and hearts of the men of God who formed the SBC. That you are willing to assign unto them “impure motives” and to do so from a distance of 150 years of social and cultural change; I find quite disturbing.
And again for the record… I find Racism of any and all sorts absolutely unacceptable, so don’t even go there.
Alan,
“As for whether or not they are Christians, I cannot say definitively.”
All I can say is… WOW!
Regarding the SBC’s founding on the issue, by the way, the SBC started in 1845 over the right of slaveholders who claimed to be missionaries have their slaves accompany them on the mission field. 1845. In 1846, Muslim Tunisia outlaws slavery. That is how wrong we were. Muslims were getting it and we weren’t. And, this continued on. So, it is still a big deal and continues to play out, just in different ways.
ALAN . . . in a way your comment is an answer to prayer, as it shows a deeper understanding of something many have missed. God bless.
here is part of a comment I wrote on Dwight McKissic’s blog
“The way ahead needs Christian leadership that is not afraid of the continuing pain that is born from a past of discrimination, but understands it and embraces it in our citizens who live with it,
instead of pretending that this pain does not still exist,
or worse, has no meaning in the life of this country. “
Alan,
Muslims may have outlawed slavery in 1846 Tunisia, but hey are greatly “backslidden” today, would you not agree?
What happened in Tunisia in 1846 and why it happened and what happened among Baptists in 1845 and why it happened are not really comparable.
Sure, I agree CB, even in the issue of slavery. They are definitely a mess. My point was just that Southern Baptists in the affirmation of slavery in 1845 were not just ignorant of any other opinions on the subject. The rest of the world was piecemeal abolishing slavery nation by nation, even back then. For us to go against that shows that we were decidedly captive to our more immediate culture which was dependent upon slavery for economic prosperity. But, the rest of the world was changing. I am just setting our decisions in their historical context and am… Read more »
Alan, I know you are a pragmatic thinker. You do that well. That is why I like to talk to you and I admire you. Yet, I think maybe, due to the consistent ignitible nature of this particular issue of racial discrimination in the SBC we should restrict our examples and illustration to less ignitable forms. My brother, Hitler and Islamic nationalists may not be good comparisons here if you get my point. The issue at hand is ignitable enough. I wish Big Daddy would see this also. He seems to always have a gas can handy, especially when things… Read more »
I see what you are saying, CB. Point taken. It actually helps me to see the consequences of ideas so that I can lift them out of the rationalizations that we all create to justify ourselves and our actions. But, it is not my goal to ignite anything unnecessarily. My point was that if Hitler used the Jim Crow South as a model (the very South that my grandparents were living and working in), then that is a big deal. If Muslim Tunisia could see what we could not in 1846, then that is informative as to the level of… Read more »
That cheap, CB. I happened to catch something and blog about it (as bloggers do) and it turned into a Big JoeBiden Deal.
I did read about that tragedy recently. Lots of people doing evil things in this world.
Big Daddy, You must admit, you are no Land fan. Nor am I, I do confess. Yet, if you feel that was a cheap shot, I apologize. Also, you are correct–“lots of people doing evil things in this world.” But what happened to Matthew Owens was evil perpetrated by the racial malice and bigotry by Black men. You seem to be willing to identify racial evil by White people any time, any place. Yet, when it is reversed, committed by Black people, you play it down as mere human evil. You responded in a similar fashion when I questioned you… Read more »
So, your point is that we shouldn’t discuss Trayvon Martin unless we’re willing to discuss every other racial evil AT THE SAME TIME?
I’m really not sure what your point is.
There’s a history and context behind racism towards African-Americans in this country. Do you not agree?
I recognize that racism cuts every way. Non-whites can be and have been guilty of racism too. Who denies that?
I discussed Trayvon Martin because that tragedy was on the front-page of every newspaper.
Big Daddy, This may be my last comment here today. I shortly have to referee a girl spend-the-night that is multicultural. Multicultural will not be the problem. The problem is that they are 10 year old, fourth grade girls. I have come to realize that girls that age and grade are problematic no matter ethnic background. As I have stated in the past, during my short tenure as a parent to little girls, they are far more of a challenge than boys of any age. Count yourself lucky, Big Daddy. Just goofing as I am sure your realize. Back to… Read more »
How do we know that black churches don’t speak out against Black-on-Black crime? Ask Dwight McKissic if his colleagues in the metroplex ignore that subject. I’m sure he’ll say NO. I heard Michael Bell – first African-American president of the BGCT – speak at a prayer vigil for Trayvon Martin a few weeks back. He did indeed bring up the pressing problem of “fratricide” Sharpton has addressed the subject many times as well. When Black churches – many Baptist – partner with local police and hold events to collect handguns in exchange for money, they do so with the recognition… Read more »
Last comment for sure tonight.
Big Daddy,
we could go back and forth about some of this forever and maybe someday we will……but,
This post is about how to deal with the SBC house and the racism in the front door. What say ye about that?
I say ye ought to take a harder line against “racist” churches than you do with churches that call a woman to be senior pastor…
You know Big Daddy,
Sometimes I think you feel you have an accurate profile of me. (Are you a profiler Big Daddy?) 🙂
Here’s the truth about cb and women pastors. One three separate occasions, I have voted against dismissing a church from a local association over a female pastor. I know the Bible does not give credibility to such, but that is no hill on which I have chosen to die.
You need to revise your profile.
I can’t believe there is even a question of whether devaluing people because of their race is a lesser sin than someone’s sexual preference. What are we waiting for, all the racists to die off? Let me be more clear. People who may have some racial views that are less than perfect, may also live their lives without exhibiting racism. Why? Because despite how they feel, they know it’s wrong. And we have the ability to combat our sinfulness, especially in light of the indwelling Spirit. So by all means let us show grace to all sinners, including racists. We… Read more »
Is the drinking of a glass of wine worse than being a racist? If you look at SBC history, it would appear so. But, the primary issue is not even about race. It is about protecting your way of life against those you see as a threat and using God to do it. That is what led to racism and that is why it still exists. Also, we keep manifesting that attitude in many different ways, so even if you are not a racist but you are primarily concerned with your way of life, power, and prosperity to the exclusion… Read more »
I have never thought of myself as a racist. But I have never really seen racism as the evil that it is. I think our sin now may be to fail to realize the hurt and harm caused by racism and to downplay its wickedness.
“I think our sin now may be to fail to realize the hurt and harm caused by racism and to downplay its wickedness.” Well put. Yesterday, I was speaking to a group of students at a large, metropolitan private Christian school on the topic of historical institutional racism in the South. After fielding their questions, the thing that struck me the most was how little the students realized about the continued existence of racism, (or, at the very least, the harm caused by racism), in the modern age. I don’t say that to place blame on the students—they were only… Read more »
Zack,
What exactly is the “cause” of racism? I’d suggest that the cause is “sin” and its effects will linger until Jesus comes.
We can do much to take the legs out from under institutionalized racism (eg. Civil Rights Legislation) but it will remain as much a problem as say, “adultery,” which I’d say has the same cause.
Dave, I appreciate your post. I agree that much must be and continue to be done. I respectfully and carefully take slight issues with #1 in your original post. First, what I agree with… I agree that we Southern Baptists have this unfortunate blight on our history. And bless the Lord for the rightness in our repentance. Second, two statement I disagree with… 1) “One of the shameful truths of American history is that blacks had to demand their rights; had to march for them, protest for them and fight for them.” There obviously are shameful truths in our national… Read more »
* please forgive my blunders with the kings English in my misuse of there and their by submitting my reply without catching those embarrassing misses… (insert smile face with red cheeks.)
and missing (‘) and all other such offenses to the King.
(insert squiggly face with hands covering the face)
“I respectfully and carefully take slight issues with #1 in your original post.”
What? How dare you? HERETIC!
On each of these points, I’m trying to make a point that I think is valid, and I think my illustrations are valid, if not perfect.
The Civil Rights movement was blacks demanding what should have already been theirs under the constitution.
Certainly, not all whites are or have been racists – some stood on the right side on this one. But the perpetration of racism in America was largely a white problem and the fix ought to be driven by us.
The clarification of the “Civil Rights movement” is helpful in my reading and strengthens your point. As a fellow ambassadors of reconciliation I agree with you. (while nodding my head with the vigor of a bobble-head on the dash of a 1974 Ford Pinto on a gravel road.)
Here’s a spoken word video “Diversity’s Symphony” with a prayer that the SBC can play a part in God’s glorious symphony.
http://youtu.be/XRYmm2G1rhY
“If what we call racial reconciliation is not transforming individuals, families, churches, and communities, then it is merely sociology with a little Jesus sprinkled on top”- Tony Evans “Oneness Embraced’
My question in all this is so what will have to be the result in order to deem the SBC “not racist” anymore? Is it not until there are just as many black as white in total membership? Or is it not until all ethnic groups are equally represented? And what does this mean for individual churches? Are we in sin if no other ethnic group is in attendance? Also, I find it confusing that no one but Dr. Land is speaking out against “ministers” such as Sharpton and Jackson. Certainly he could have phrased things better but are we… Read more »
Trey,
From the very beginning I have challenged Dwight McKissic about defending the likes of Sharpton and Jackson. You can find our long debate at Tim Roger’s blog.
CB,
Thanks for reply.
Any others out there?
And CB, what message is transmitted by Dwight if he refuses to do so, seeing as how it is his articles that seem to be pushing this?
” . . . so what will have to be the result in order to deem the SBC “not racist” anymore? ”
is that really the question you should be asking, Trey ?
Christiane,
Is there something wrong with the question ?
I don’t want to speak for Trey, but it seems a perfectly legitimate question.
For example: we know that a public apology for our denominations thinking in regard to slavery was insufficient.
We know that the fact a black will be elected to the highest office is insufficient.
It seems Trey’s question points out what has been said a number of times: racism is here as long as people are.
I don’t see anything sinister in Trey’s question as you suggest, Christianne.
Trey,
Your question is the question we need to answer. And I wish I had the answer.
L’s is often an antagonist against conservative Christians. Don’t let it get under your skin.
Curious to know what African-American Black civil rights voices you (CB or Trey) appreciate? If Sharpton is this bad guy, what leaders get your stamp of approval?
Big Daddy, Are you going to say Sharpton is a good guy? Are you going to say Jackson is a good guy? The late Martin Luther King Jr’s family might disagree with you. Let me say, I considered the late Ralph Abernathy to be the real deal. He was a man of character. I believe that had he and King lived longer they would speak differently than the Sharptons and the Jacksons do. Big Daddy, frankly our nation is lacking in true Statesmen of any ethnic background at the present time it seems to me. Big Daddy, don’t try to… Read more »
One more thing, then I have to face the music of being late to the party.
Recently, I made the comment that Dr. Mitchell, Ethics professor at SWBTS would make a great head of the ERLC in my opinion. Oc course, I don’t think you would appreciate his political views very much. 😉
CB, Ralph Abernathy is dead. What living leader gets your stamp of approval? Why didn’t Richard Land and other nationally known SBC leaders, offer the support that Sharpton and Jackson offered? Why didn’t the SBC bring a Kingdom perspective to this discussion as did John Piper and Jack Hayford? I’m grateful for Dave Miller, Alan Cross, Todd Littleton, Marty Duren, Eric Redmond, Fred Luter, Bart Barber, George Nelson, Maxie Miller, and others who I don’t recall now, who at least were willing to express some level of support for justice for Trayvon’s family, due process for Zimmerman and his family,… Read more »
Dwight, You didn’t include me in your list of those seeking justice for Trayvon. It is quite possible it is because I’m a nobody and easily forgotten. I can except that. Every night I go to bed realizing that nearly 7 billion people in the world don’t even know I exist. However, if you meant to imply that those who don’t share your point of view, like in regard to Jackson and Sharpton, are not “Kingdom minded” and do not want justice for all, then I would object strongly. I regard to why Jackson and Sharpton “reached out” to the… Read more »
Dwight,
If you have not read the comments on this thread and yet you come in an accusing manner toward me today, you are being hypocritical and exhibiting the persona of a racial profiler yourself with your comment.
I count you as a friend, but I will not tolerate such rude behavior, even from friends. I have done as much or more to fight racism that most White guys you know and that certainly includes those you have placed on your merit list.
You cowboy up and be honest or quit calling for others to do so.
CB, I apologize for offending you; that certainly was not my intent. Forgive me for sounding accusatory and for sounding like a profiler. I thought BDW asked a good question. You gave a good answer. I met Ralph Abernathy and hosted him as a guest speaker when I led a student organization in college. I remain curious: please don’t be offended by what I consider a intellectually honest sincere question–and that is the same question that BDW asked you that didn’t offend you; what alive leader do you appreciate that would have been acceptable to you to minister to the… Read more »
Dwight, You are not Big Daddy Weave. You know me personally, he does not. Therefore, I cut him a lot of slack and also, probably, actually, most definitely, because he reminds me so very much of one of my sons in his philosophy of life and his theological positions. (They both are graduates from liberal universities and reflect such an education.) You did offend me. I accept your apology. Now, read my comments on this thread. Upon reading them, you might come up with a better question to ask me. I am not the enemy Dwight, and you know that.… Read more »
In truth, if you think about, among Christian people there is very little room for ‘being offended by others’ . . . not when we have sought forgiveness of our own sins made possible through the terrible sufferings of Christ for our sake. ‘Being offended by someone’ no longer has much meaning in our lives when we think on the grace we ourselves have received. “Love is always patient and kind; it is never jealous, love is never boastful or conceited; it is never rude or selfish; it does not take offense, and is not resentful. . . . ”… Read more »
I thought my question was a fair one, CB. Answering with Abernathy is not much different than answering with Dr. King. Neither have been with us for a long time now. Abernathy died in 1990.
I was curious to see if you might answer with the name of my former boss, John Lewis.
Again, Sharpton and Jackson are far from perfect. But I think many outspoken African-American leaders in the civil rights community make many uncomfortable. A prophetic message is not always easy to digest.
Brothers,
You lost me when you suggest above that the megachurch is a manifestation of racism. You know good and well it is more complex than that.
Tim B,
We are not suggesting that all megachurches are manifestations of racism. Yet, it cannot be denied that many are.
CB,
I’m not clear: are you saying that “many” of the large black churches are racist? That is a very bold claim, don’t you think.
Could it be possible that the word, “racist,” is so poorly defined and gratuitously bantered about that it has lost all economy in a normal conversation?
If a church is “racist” as you claim many are, I would suggest it is a causal fallacy to link the sociological position with size. I’m not great fan of the megachurch movement, but them being inherently racist is not one of my reasons.
Frank L,
I live in Birmingham, AL. The word “racist” is not poorly defined here. It is well defined and lived out among several ethnic groups.
CB, As we say in theology, context is everything. I did not know you were in the Deep South. That does in fact make a difference in how you relate to racism and racial stuff in general. I’m in the West and racism has a different shade here. Also, I do have some appreciation of racial issues. My wife is the third generation from Oakland, CA. (at the time about 60% black, but at the time we lived in downtown, it was higher). But, would you agree that I am at least partially correct in stating that racism and racial… Read more »
PS–To help me better understand you, CB, I have some good ole’ Southern Gospel blaring in my ears.
Tim, You said, “You lost me when you suggest above that the megachurch is a manifestation of racism. You know good and well it is more complex than that.” What I am saying is that the megachurch is often a refuge of safety, security, comfort, and options for the Christian who wants a satisfying religious experience. I am not saying that people go to megachurches because the are racists. Not at all. I am saying that the same issues that drove racism now drive us in other ways – we want to protect and enhance our way of life (for… Read more »
Alan, I think your statement about megachurches and racism was WAY off base and your explanation is not much better. I don’t think there is any study I know of, and certainly have never read, that suggests that megachurches, “tap I [sic] into the same appeal and desire that racism did. ” That is a strong statement to make–and a dangerous one–unless you have some evidence to support it. Evidence would be a sociological study of some kind, not just an extended explanation. Do you have such evidence? Or, are you suggesting that the statement is so self-evident that it… Read more »
Frank L,
Alan can, as can I, name churches which were intentionally moved or planted because of White-Flight. Surely you will understand that wisdom would prohibit our naming those churches on this comment thread.
Frank L., You aren’t following what I am saying at all. I am not saying that megachurches are directly racist. I am saying that people often end up in them because they want to be protected, have safety and security, enhance their way of life, and have lots of choices to get their needs met. They often want to be with people just like themselves. Are you familiar with the use of the Homogenous Unit Principle among seeker sensitive megachurches in the Sun Belt and suburbia? Once racism was largely renounced the impulse that it represented did not just disappear.… Read more »
Alan, Of course I do not have time nor interest in reading through all your references. I feel what I did read makes a case based upon what I consider a causal fallacy. To make the argument that people fled to suburbia to avoid other races, is a bit of a stretch for me. To indicate that megachurches are a form of “escapism” is also a bit of a stretch for me, knowing a couple of megachurches. These same arguments arose in the 70’s in regard to the homogeneous unit principle. The problem then, as I see it now, is… Read more »
Tim, I have to admit I’m losing patience with your misrepresentations of what others are saying.
Good conversation requires listening to what the other side is saying, and you are not doing that.
Start.
Frank L., You asked for evidence and I provided a mountain of it. There are mountains more. Many studies have been done on this issue, but I too have neither the time nor the interest to put forth any more effort. I respect your opinion and your right to disagree with me. I am thankful that you are able to see that I am decidedly NOT saying that megachurches are overtly racist in origin or practice. What I am actually saying is that they are a symptom and result of of our desire to gather with people like us, have… Read more »
“””that they are a symptom and result of of our desire to gather with people like us”””” Even the cursory glance at your “mountain” of evidence does not prove this statement to be a matter of fact. You are assuming, by tying your statement to racism, that desiring to gather with “people like us” means, “people of the same skin color and anthropological set.” As much as you believe your evidence proves that, my experience does not. I do not concur your “mountain of evidence” (and I did not read it all I will admit) proves your thesis. It is… Read more »
Frank, Thank you. I do appreciate the dialogue and the questions. I am working on a thesis and appreciate being able to test it in this discussion. You saying that I am making sweeping generalizations is something that I am taking to heart and do not at all take offense to. It helps sharpen me. I do want to clarify that my concern is not that people like us. I agree with you that that should not be our goal. However, as we stay with people like who are like us and cling to comfort and a sense of control,… Read more »
Alan,
Excellent summary.
I must call attention to one thing. You stated: ” We are not racists anymore…” I think I understand that in context. Yet, it must be stated; There are yet many true racists in the SBC, some are openly so while many more are of the closet verity.
In addition, I must declare they are not all in the Southland, nor are they all White.
CB, this is true. I agree. I am trying to be charitable and not paint the SBC with a racist brush in 2012. Most try very hard to deal with that issue – at least the ones I know in Montgomery.
But, yes, there are many prejudiced people still among us, unfortunately.
Thanks to everyone who shared their thoughts . . . the Church is a pilgrim Church on a journey through a strange land towards our final home. Christ goes ever before us. We can’t get afraid or hung-up in this strange land where there is no water. Our Lord will care for our brokenness, and He will heal our wounds, and quench our thirst. No, the journey is not over yet. But the world is not so dark as it once was, and the Church is moving in the right direction, sometimes painfully, but not abandoned . . . we… Read more »
L’s,
There is plenty of “water” if you are a born-again follower of Christ.
C.B.
you didn’t read my comment ?
C.B. there is an ancient Gaelic blessing: “”May God give you to drink from the Well of the Trinity” You may know that in the Holy Land, there is an ancient well surrounded with masonry with 24 steps leading down into the cool darkness to where the pure water gushes out of a rock, clean and cold. This image suggests the ‘well of the Trinity’ and ‘the call within’, that St Ignatius of Antioch likely had in mind when he spoke of “a murmur of living water that whispers within me ‘Come, come to the Father'” Ignatius knew that in… Read more »
L’s,
I have read of Ignatius. I have read of many others. Most importantly, I have read the Scripture. I personally know the Author. I have also read hundreds and hundreds of your comments. You do not know the Scripture. Basically, that is because you do not know the Author.
We are discussing racism and to a degree, slavery. You are still a slave. You don’t have to be one. Repent and embrace the biblical gospel. By being born-again, you will be set free.
Question for all…
If someone believes that the “Institution of Slavery” within any given society, such as those found in both the O.T. And the N.T., is morally acceptable… “Is That Person a Raceist?”
Greg Alford,
That is a philosophical question that can take us many places. That question could bring us to a debate about whether biblical characters were racists or not.
I think we have enough one our hands with the SBC and the churches of which it reflects.
I think the issue is; Do we have a problem with racism as Southern Baptists? The answer is; Yes. Our need is to seek an end to the problem or to make as much positive change as possible in our lifetimes or till Jesus returns.
CB,
Thanks for playing… Actually with so many on here “EQUATING” slavery with Raceism, I thought it might help tone down some of the SBC Founders bashing if we actually brought up the fact that no where in scripture is slavery equated with Raceism.
Southern Christians did not purchase slaves because they hatted them… As anyone who has any knowledge of Christianity in the South during this period knows full well.
Anyway, I,ll sign off now… Before I ware out my welcome like Tim B. Obviously has.
Greg Alford,
You are a good man. You have always exhibited grit and steel in your convictions and frankly, such men are going to be the only kind who can bring any resolution to this ghost that has haunted us for so long as Southern Baptists.
Good night brother. I have to go back to my watch of this bunch of little girls spending the night in my home to make sure they don’t tear it down or cook and eat my Bulldog.
Greg,
“”””Southern Christians did not purchase slaves because they hatted them… “”””
I think it would be equally wrong to suggest that Southern Christians were purchasing slaves because they were seeking to follow the teachings of Christ in the Bible.
I will agree that the “slavery” issue in the Bible, or the lack of a clear teaching against it, is a thorny issue.
Racism is not hatred of other races. It is the belief that one’s race is superior to others. Slave owners had black slaves because they considered blacks to be less than human. That’s pretty racist. We didn’t take British slaves did we, after the revolutionary war?
But on the whole, I think you have a point about slavery. Slavery and racism are not the same thing. People have, and unfortunately still do make slaves of their own race. But racism certainly explains much of the history of slavery.
I’m not sure where you are going with this. But I am nervous whenever we try to in any way mitigate the seriousness of the sins that have been committed against blacks in America.
Dave, Your post here reflects my difficulty in understanding the motive behind all of this. From your wording, it seems that you believe sins are still being committed against blacks in America?? Please correct me here, but 1)as believers, regardless of color, we are the same in Christ; 2)As I understand Scripture, we do not take it to say that I should pay for the sins of my father, or in this case maybe great grandfather or earlier; 3) how have we limited anyone in the SBC as a convention in say the past 20-30 years?? My fear is that… Read more »
I’m still not tracking why we would take a different line on overt and official racism in SBC churches than churches with women pastors. Surely racism is a greater sin than egalitarianism (if sin that is). I’ve seen people (seem to) say that they are different, but not why they are different. To deny someone fellowship in the local body of Christ because of their color is beyond fiendish. It is evil.
Bill, I may be wrong on this, but I think that only associations and state conventions have disfellowshiped churches over female pastors. I do not think the SBC has taken that action yet.
If someone can factually correct that, I’m listening.
Well, female pastors or homosexuality then. If we do not take decisive action against overt racism, then it shows the world that we are happy to take a stand against some sin but not others.
A church with race based membership policies should be disfellowshipped. I can’t believe that this is even controversial. This is a no brainer.
A church with race based membership policies should be disfellowshipped
I disagree. I think they should be mocked openly for their ignorant, unbiblical position then disfellowshipped. In a case like that, public humiliation is more than warranted. 🙂
Fully agreed! And members of such a church should not be allowed “letters of transfer” without a open and public apology for attending such a church.
Dave,
You are right. The SBC has not disfellowshipped a church for having a female pastor.
I wonder if any state or local conventions have disfellowshipped any churches because of racism?
Bill Mac,
Surely, in our lifetime, had a state convention disfellowshipped a church for reasons of racial discrimination, we would have read or heard of it. The activities of local associations are not so well known, but I seriously doubt any local association affiliated with the SBC has ever disfellowshipped a local affiliated member church over issues of racial discrimination.
The problem in the SBC is not the minority who still hold true racist views and lead their church. The problem is the majority of SBC folk who say “I’m not racist, the churches I personally know are not racist, therefore there is no racism in the SBC.” THAT my friends is the height of arrogance and presumption. Yet that is basically what I see here on these boards. “I’m not racist! How dare you say there is a racism problem in the SBC!!” I will refrain from saying what I trully think about these types of people as it… Read more »
Smuuschany, A few thoughts-maybe questions if I may? 1). I think you make a valid point here: “The problem in the SBC is not the minority who still hold true racist views and lead their church. The problem is the majority of SBC folk who say “I’m not racist, the churches I personally know are not racist, therefore there is no racism in the SBC.” 2). A question here: Who on this thread has made this statement? “I’m not racist! How dare you say there is a racism problem in the SBC!!” 3). I think it would be helpful to… Read more »
CB,
Thank you for saving me the time.
No problem Frank L. That is why Dave Miller and Tony Kummer send me a check every month. Oh, I forgot. That was supposed to be a secret. Oh well, it was good while it lasted! 🙂
CB My problem is with anyone who gets offended by the use of the words “we” in regards to the SBC and racism. If I say that WE in the SBC have not done enough in combating the racism that is still in our convention; and someone gets offended that I said “WE”, that is someone I have a big problem with. That they get more upset by the use of “WE” than they do that there are still churches (and in a larger number than i think anyone chooses to recognize) that practice institutional (either overt or subvert) racism;… Read more »
It’s interesting to me you put these two ideas together: “””f I say that WE in the SBC have not done enough in combating the racism that is still in our convention; and someone gets offended that I said “WE”, that is someone I have a big problem with. “”” and “”that they get more upset by the use of “WE” than they do that there are still churches (and in a larger number than i think anyone chooses to recognize) that practice institutional (either overt or subvert) racism; THAT I have a MAJOR problem with””” Why do you feel… Read more »
Brother,
Apparently God has given you a burden. I don’t know any churches wth racist policies. You must know a lot of them. Have you taken action? I have a problem with churches with racist poilicies but I have a bigger problem with folks who know of churches with racist policies and don’t take action. They are making all of us look bad. I am weary of being guilty by association. Please do something about the racist churches that you know. I’ll support you.
Several people on this board and else where have suggested that motions be made at association, state, and national levels that would remove racist churches from fellowship with the convention. Yet this suggestion is ridiculed and rejected by an unfortunately large number of people. And yes, I do plan on making such a motion this year at my states convention if I am able to attend. As I still am a “kid” in most people’s eyes, and as I am a member, not pastor of my church, I doubt it will carry much weight. You are right, I have not… Read more »
I don’t think anyone has said, on this thread, that the SBC is not racist. But we have heard before that despite our infamous beginnings, the SBC is, on the whole, no longer racist (without claiming that there are absolutely no racists). I hope that is true. But I think SM’s point is like mine. If we are going to claim that we are not racist, how can we even think of treating overtly racist churches differently than pro-homosexual churches? I wish David B would come back on and explain why he said this (or seemed to say it). If… Read more »
Another great resource is an e-book by Mark DeYmaz,
” Should Pastors Accept or Reject the Homogeneous Unit Principle? : straight talk about what it is, what it’s not, and how it applies biblically to the local church”. Available @ http://www.mosaix.info
Smuschany, So can we agree that no on on this ‘specific’ thread has openly stated, ““I’m not racist! How dare you say there is a racism problem in the SBC!!” Can we also agree that the problem of racial discrimination is more widespread that many are willing to admit as Alan Cross and cb have pointed out in several comments along with others on this specific thread and as Dave Miller’s post summits in its content? That brings us to the third issue: How do we as a religious body (The SBC) properly and within our parameters of cooperation, relate… Read more »
CB,
I have to jump off your wagon here a bit: I think that having racist policies memorialized in your documents is a pretty clear way to “properly, systematically, and orderly” throw them out.
Here’s the thing: I’m afraid we might be shocked how many and who might oppose such and action. If racism is as much a problem as you suggest it could be–and I’m not disagreeing–then such a policy might just shine enough light to get the cockroaches running for cover.
Frank is right. I think the problem is far too many SBC folk are like ostriches with their heads in the sand. We want to think institutional racism is a thing of the past in our denomination, and many are fearful of taking a look because it might show we are not as “clean” as we have thought. We have many friends whom we stubbornly refuse to believe are racist, but when we trully examine their actions (and maybe even our own) we realize that there is indeed racism in their (and our) lives. Many associate racism with only KKK… Read more »
Smush,
Your post makes no sense at all.
Who said anything about ministering to “black Africans new to this country” as opposed to “immigrant families?”
You lost me.
My seminary regularly had missions teams going to the areas of the KC area where immigrants lived. Mostly Kenyan. The only time they seemed to send teams to areas of “American black” was when they were helping an individual church asking for help with its outreach. I am not saying one over the other is necessarily wrong. I was trying to throw a similarity between now, and the founding of the SBC when men were upset that they were told they cannot take their SLAVES on a missions trip. You see these men saw nothing wrong with ministering over seas… Read more »
Frank L.,
Yes and Amen!!!!
Dwight
Frank L.,
The “Yes and Amen!!!” was meant to be placed here.
Dwight
CB, The Evangelical Free Church and Evangelical Covenant Chuch each have a robust and visible policy on ethnic diversity. You stated “Now, is the time to stand”, but my knees are weak, and my brethren are letting me fall. Thabiti Anyabwile has an excellent post: “Principled Cooperation” http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/thabitianyabwile/2012/04/25/principled-cooperation/ Please read it. It so adequately articulates what many of us have been trying to say. Just one quote of many “Inter-racial, multi-ethnic, and diverse relationships are not the end but one of the necessary by-products of taking seriously our common identity in Christ and the death of trans-ethnic hostility. I’m not… Read more »
Sima,
Southern Baptists have problems, I agree. Yet, no group of people on the earth understand and articulate the Gospel any better than do Southern Baptists. I think a new day will come with the passing of my generation regarding the equality of all men. If people of your generation and younger do not dilute the story of redemption and the doctrines of the faith there is a possibility of a better day in the SBC for all regardless of ethnic background.
Now is the time to stand. Now is the time to be counted.
Yet, no group of people on the earth understand and articulate the Gospel any better than do Southern Baptists
I disagree with this statement for a variety of reasons, but our system of doing missions is the best. But none of this means a thing until we as a denomination live what we preach and teach. In my opinion we haven’t done that for years. We pretend to be great, but we are not. Far from it. This being just one of many areas.
Dwight McKissic and C. B. Scott, Sorry I’m so late getting back. I sometimes use words meant to get a little attention; maybe this time they got a little too much. I apologize for a poor choice of words. My intention is not to legitimize or condone a racist church or racism, but to say they can be moved to where they ought to be. I love stories like: http://bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?id=23764 http://bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?id=15196 Dwight, I didn’t really think you owed me an apology. We just butted heads a little and disagreed a little. But I do accept it and I appreciate and… Read more »