Jeremy Vanatta is the pastor and an elder of Southside Baptist Church in Lebanon, TN. He holds a PhD in New Testament from Mid-America BTS. He blogs at The Threshing Floor, where this article originally appeared.
As Paul brings his letter to Titus to a close, he wants to give some instructions on what to do with divisive church members who persistently disrupt the unity in the church with their wild theologies and controversies.
Titus 3:10-11—As for a person who stirs up division, after warning him once and then twice, have nothing more to do with him, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.
1. The Church must be patient with divisive members (v.10a): Paul has already alluded to divisive members who promote “controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law” (v.9). He says they are “unprofitable” and “worthless.” Notice, Paul didn’t say that these divisive members were being unprofitable and worthless or that their theology is unprofitable and worthless, though those things are certainly true. Paul says that they, the members themselves, are unprofitable and worthless.
This is why the job of the shepherding elders is so tough. Not every person that enters our building is membership material, meaning that not every visitor is here for the right reason. The reason we exist as the Church is to “declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light” (1 Pt.2:9). But people come in all the time with their own agenda and motivations that are rooted in selfishness and not the gospel.
And sometimes, some of our own church members will become like those self-righteous visitors. Some of our own members will hear a weird preacher with weird views, or else they’ll hear a good preacher with good views but they misunderstand something he says. And then they begin to promote those weird views in the church, and before you know it divisions arise.
Paul gives Titus, as one of the elders of the Cretan Church, the responsibility of rebuking such divisive people. But notice the patience with which the Cretan leadership is to have with them. They are to be warned not once but twice. This is very similar to Jesus’ teaching on church discipline in Matthew 18: call for repentance privately; then with two or three witnesses; and then tell it to the church.
In Matthew 18, however, sinning church members get three warnings. In Titus, Paul is dealing with a more serious problem, namely false teaching that is causing division. Someone who is committing adultery may or may not threaten the unity of the church. Someone who has been unfaithful in gathering with the church may or may not threaten the unity of the church. But false teachers spreading their gangrenous division is always a threat to the unity of the church.
Paul, however, is not saying that the false teachers ought to be ousted because of their false teaching, although that would be permissible. Rather, Paul is saying that false teachers that are causing division in the church ought to be ousted. And it is Jewish legalism that is especially in view in Paul’s mind. Today, it might be denominational legalism or American-pride legalism or self-made moralism. Yet in God’s grace, God calls for patience.
2. The Church must remove divisive members from its fellowship (vv.10b-11): Paul says to “have nothing more to do with” the divisive church member. It means that after two warnings, the agitator is to be excommunicated and ostracized. No more hanging out. No more game nights or Mexican cheese dip or guy outings of any kind or shopping trips for the gals.
Paul is very adamant about this, and he tells us why in verse 11: “knowing that such a person is warped and sinful; he is self-condemned.
Warped and sinful means that a person is beyond ordinary instruction. While they are not beyond the power of God’s grace to work in them, we must understand that the primary way that God works grace into a person is through the preaching and teaching of God’s Word. If a person is unteachable, always arguing and debating doctrine with a know-it-all attitude, then they are beyond God’s ordinary means of grace.
The phrase, “He is self-condemned” is very interesting. Often people will react to church discipline by saying, “Who are we to judge?” But notice that Paul does not promote the judging of others. Rather, he makes it clear that such people are self-condemned, meaning they have brought judgment on themselves. The church is simply confirming the sinner’s unrepentant status.
Sometimes we react to a single teaching of Scripture like this as if it is an isolated instruction, but the teaching on church discipline is far from being a single teaching. Here’s a few examples of other places that mention the removal of and warning about unrepentant members:
2 Thessalonians 3:6—Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.
2 Thessalonians 3:14—If anyone does not obey what we say in this letter, take note of that person, and have nothing to do with him, that he may be ashamed.
Galatians 6:1—Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted.
Romans 16:17-18—I appeal to you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and create obstacles contrary to the doctrine that you have been taught; avoid them. 18 For such persons do not serve our Lord Christ, but their own appetites, and by smooth talk and flattery they deceive the hearts of the naïve.
The biblical evidence is clear. The church should not tolerate theologically divisive people, but we should lovingly remove them from our fellowship. For church discipline is love in three directions:
1) Love for the unrepentant person–It is better they suffer now than to suffer eternally in hell. The hope is that they will repent and get right with Jesus.
2) Love for faithful members–We hear a lot about harming the unrepentant sinner, but what about the rest of the church that is walking faithfully with Jesus? What is it teaching our children when a church member is living in adultery and the church stands by and does nothing about it?
3) Love for the glory of Jesus–Ultimately, it’s all about Jesus. The Church has been saved and set apart for the purpose of making Jesus look good, for shining the spotlight on Him.
May the Lord continue to purify for Himself a people who willingly remove unrepentant members from its fellowship with patience and love in the hopes of bringing them back to repentance.
Soli Deo Gloria,
Jeremy Vanatta
Thanks for this, a very good distillation of NT teaching in this area
These verses are clear, so I am not intending to sound as though I am disputing them. But people such as the ones you describe often are able to cause division because of the things that the church does. First, if the church has not been good about discipleship and teaching doctrine, then the people are more susceptible. Some churches are notorious for this. Second, if the church has poor quality control in the selection of teachers, a guy like this can become head of a class, and off you go. The church should be careful about whom it allows… Read more »
Good thoughts. Thanks for sharing.
Is an egalitarian who lobbies for women elders a persistent agitator?
Truth United, Could be? Depending on the doctrine of the church. Willow Creek & several evangelical churches have women elders. SBC entities have women trustees whose function is very similar to the function of a elder in many churches. So a person consistently lobbying for a woman elder may or may not be a persistent agitator. It all depends on what a church’s position is on this subject. And depending on governmental structure & the exact function of an elder in a particular local church context…a person does not have to be an “egalitarian” to push for a woman elder.… Read more »
Governor Eagle and Mary K.O. Eagle were probably not what we would call “egalitarian” but they were certainly ahead of their time. Although more logically, they were just the president of the ABSC and his wife who were elected to be messengers in Augusta in 1885 and thought that representing Arkansas Baptists was enough. Nothing in their personal correspondence about the move to ban women messengers at that meeting, after credentials read off her name, indicates they went to provoke or cause a problem. There was nothing prohibiting women messengers until that year, so there was no reason to exclude… Read more »
Ahh…Elder Eagle.
Fascinating times. I love the synopsis of Mrs. Eagle’s encounter with Ben Bogard on a train (I think from Paragould to Little Rock, but I can’t find that particular research note). She gave him a piece of her mind–the report said she stretched the definition of “ladylikeness” and would say nothing else of the incident. He was president of the ABSC for 21 years, and of the SBC for 3. And Governor of Arkansas for 4, back when we had 2-year-terms–and was so cutting-edge that he dared to introduce Susan B. Anthony when she gave a speech about women’s right.… Read more »
I wish I knew a historian or two who could write a post about this fascinating historical pair – never heard of them before.
That’s what you’ve got Bart for.
🙂
Doug, I’d be interested in seeing sources for what you’re saying about Eagle and Jim Crow. That’s not the impression I got when I was working on my dissertation. Hinson did, of course, do all he could do to exonerate Eagle, but a wider examination of sources put that line of argumentation in doubt, particularly with regard to the “Separate Coach Law.” Here are the sources that I consulted on this point: Matthew Hild, “Labor, Third-Party Politics, and New South Democracy in Arkansas, 1884- 1896,” Arkansas Historical Quarterly 63, no. 1 (2004): 27-33; and Moneyhon, Arkansas and the New South,… Read more »
I’ll see where I filed those cards. That was the way Mary Eagle recorded her impressions in one of her journals that a museum in Little Rock had.
I was mainly researching her and the whole SBC thing, so those notes were sloppy and aren’t in the paper I have on the computer. Probably a one-sided view of the man that is less than perfect.
I had the experience of finding out that one does not receive support and recognition, when he or she goes against the grain in advocating something that most people think is biblical. In 1985 I served as chairman of the historical committee of the Baptist State Convention of North Carolina, and I delivered an address on the subject, “The Genius of Orthodoxy: Eldresses,” which earned me the commendations of the wind, rain, and stars, which is to say, nada, nothing. The Moderates who were in control at that time (supposedly) simply reported the subject in the state Baptist paper, the… Read more »
There can be no doubt that the church is required to exercise discipline against sinful or errant members.
However, my concern (not disagreeing with Jeremy’s piece at all) is that church discipline has sometimes been used as a means of intimidating those who do not agree with the leaders’ views, to enforce conformity and to silence critics.
We cannot classify disagreeement as sin or dissent as division
But those who are truly divisive, we must discipline.
I whole-heartedly agree.
Dave, I think your comment is truly at the heart of how Jesus requires us to love our brothers and sisters in the church. There are many churches, unfortunately, that do not have the ability to carry forward this requirement for lack of Godly men serving as Elders/Pastors in the church body. If Elders/Pastors are not lovingingly serving the congregation, and Lording over them,…that is a whole other proposition altogether and moreover what Paul is instructing Titus to deal with in the letter. When we love our brothers and sisters by winning them back to the church, that discipline is… Read more »
Our church’s bylaws provide for male elders and we cross reference the BFM in our doctrinal statement. If someone believed in having female elders we would not discipline them. As I mentioned above, we are set up in such a way that “Lobbying efforts” can’t exist in our church. We don’t have a political system that would recognize lobbying efforts. To have a change to the bylaws and doctrinal statement would require all of the elders to favor it, and then recommend the change to the congregation. We would invite the person to come and dialogue with the elders. We… Read more »
Louis: “To have a change to the bylaws and doctrinal statement would require all of the elders to favor it, and then recommend the change to the congregation.”
Curious. When was the last time a change to the bylaws and doctrinal statement changed at your church given the process outlined above?
Curious. Has there been any SBC church in the last 50 years that ordained a woman elder which has the polity process that Louis’s church has?
Truth: We have not had a change in our doctrinal statement that required congregational approval since our founding 21 years ago. We have had 2 requests that were brought formally to the elders and one that was brought informally. The elders did not unanimously that the requested changes should be made. Every person who johns our church is made aware of the bylaws and doctrinal statement do they don’t join unless they agree. What I was trying to communicate earlier is illustrated by our polity. We do not have doctrinal disputes at our church because our doctrine is stated clearly,… Read more »
Louis, You wrote, “Every person who johns our church is made aware of the bylaws and doctrinal statement do they don’t join unless they agree.” Do you mean they don’t join unless they acknowledge having been made aware of your doctrinal statement? Or, they don’t join unless they agree with your doctrinal statement. I can’t tell from what you typed. I’m an elder in a PCA church and people can and do join while not agreeing with the WCF and Larger and Shorter Catechisms. Happens all the time. We in fact have many former Southern Baptists who join but do… Read more »
Les: People joining agree with our church’s doctrinal statement which is only 8 or 9 points long – on a single sheet of paper. It includes statements about Scripture, God (Father, Son, Holy Spirit), Salvation, End times (just says that God brings everything to an end). I am writing this from memory. We do not require everyone to believe every point about the BFM. But we say that our church is a Southern Baptist congregation and we reference the BFM. The bylaws say that the Elders must meet the qualifications in Timothy, which mentions being male. We do not ask… Read more »
I find that interesting that PCA churches can accept baptists as members when the baptists don’t agree on the nature of the “sacraments” as being a means of Grace. Not fussing. Just interesting. We have had some PCA folks join our congregation, but if their only baptism was not as a confessional believer, they would need to be baptized. In our city lots of baptists are members of a handful of PCA churches that have private schools so they can get the church member discount. Do you feel that is helpful to the PCA? It seems that an important part… Read more »
Louis, Sounds like your church has thought membership through very well and are doing what works best for your structure. Just one point, we don’t really “ask” new members to submit to the leadership. In our new members (prospective members) class, among other things we go over our structure and talk about what elders and deacons do and let them know that membership involves a vow to submit to the governing shepherds, elders, and explain then what discipline would entail should there be a need for it. But as always, membership does not require anyone to agree with our doctrinal… Read more »
Louis, as to the sacraments, our view is of course that immersion is valid but not required to be considered an acceptable baptism. So, for instance, my wife was accepted many years ago as a member and her only baptism was in a SB church when she was a young teen after her profession of faith. Our view is that we should not make requirements into a local membership any more narrow than requirements to be in the body of Christ. That is, a credible profession of faith and water baptism in the name of our triune God. Adding that… Read more »
BTW Louis, here below are the 5 vows of membership for joining a PCA congregation: “1. Do you acknowledge yourselves to be sinners in the sight of God, justly deserving His displeasure, and without hope save in His sovereign mercy? 2. Do you believe in the Lord Jesus Christ as the Son of God, and Savior of sinners, and do you receive and rest upon Him alone for salvation as He is offered in the Gospel? 3. Do you now resolve and promise, in humble reliance upon the grace of the Holy Spirit, that you will endeavor to live as… Read more »
Thanks, Les. This is really helpful to learn more about the PCA culture. I agree with the general goal of not requiring too much. A baptism as a confessional believer by immersion would be fine in the PCA. We don’t require re-baptism if a person was baptized as a confessional believer. We offer if the mode was different (e.g. pouring or sprinkling), but it’s not mandatory. Since we don’t see non-confessional baptisms as baptisms, it’s harder to come in our direction. As to relax doctrinal standards, I meant that I just assumed that before becoming a Presbyterian I would have… Read more »
Thanks Louis. One last observation. You said “We offer if the mode was different (e.g. pouring or sprinkling), but it’s not mandatory.”
Wow! You’re one of the few I’ve heard of that will accept a confessional sprinkling or pouring. I would guess that stance is not too prevalent in SB churches.
God bless,
Les
Here is my pet peeve regarding “dissention” in Baptist circles:
It is conflating the view that the length of the 7 creation day in Genesis were not 24 days with a view that the bible is not inerrant.
In a nutshell it is conflating a first order doctrine in the theological triage continuum with a doctrine which is third order (or maybe even 4th order).
Sometimes people will defend to the death secondary or even tertiary doctrines as if they were the very foundations of Christianity.
Roger Simpson Oklahoma City OK
Roger, My pet peeve is with people who affirm faith in the supernatural God and the supernatural, literal resurrection of His Son, but balk at an immediate, supernatural, literal, six-day creation. I challenge you to find a single example of a denomination that was once a Bible-believing part of the body of Christ but is now an apostate, liberalized, false-gospel “church” that did not begin its journey to apostasy by first abdicating a literal understanding of Genesis 1. Step 1: leave the question of a literal six-day creation up in the air. Step 2: accept the old-earth creation theory, denying… Read more »
—But, hey… maybe I’m just an “agitator.”
Truth United… The SBC has declined to be definitive about several doctrinal issues that contribute to the problem of churches or individuals within churches not knowing where Baptists stand on these issues such as: women preachers(not Senior Pastors), women deacons(the 2000 BF&M committee deliberilately chose not to address this issue), elders form of church government, and praying/praising/thanksgiving in tongues(privately or publicly), and Calvinism. Because the SBC refuse to be definitive on these matters it leaves local churches & individuals in local churches confused, or unsure as to the official position of the SBC on these matters. If someone advocate for… Read more »
Hello Pastor Dwight,
I was merely interested in the real-world possibility (or actual occurrence) of an egalitarian lobbying, or agitating, or advocating for the ordination of women to the office of elder in a SBC church with a multiple elder polity, and that such an SBC church subscribes to BFM 2000 and church bylaws like Louis’s church which expressly stipulates that only men are to serve in the office of elder.
Would this be a clear example of “Remove the Persistent Agitator” Egalitarian as espoused by Dr. Jeremy Vanatta?
Truth…,
No. A person advocating an egalitarian position on elders should not be removed. They should be dealt with lovingly. Someone should explain the church’s position to them with gentleness & respect. And if the “agitator” persisted, a church leader should repeat this process as often as necessary.
Me: “… Case … Would this be a clear example of “Remove the Persistent Agitator” Egalitarian as espoused by Dr. Jeremy Vanatta? ” Dr. Jeremy Vanatta: “The biblical evidence is clear. The church should not tolerate theologically divisive people, but we should lovingly remove them from our fellowship.” versus Pastor Dwight McKissic: “No. A person advocating an egalitarian position on elders should not be removed.” Pastor Dwight, suppose a church, let’s say a SBC church, lovingly removed an unteachably persistent egalitarian agitator from it’s church membership. A loving excommunication from that local corporate body. How would you regard that SBC… Read more »
Truth, It amazes me that we would be discussing removing a person for holding an advocating an egalitarian position. The SBC refused by vote to place in their bylaws/constitution that they would be willing to remove a racist from registering as a messenger, but yet, it appears that you & the author of this post would remove an egalitarian. How amazing!!! If a person affirms the BF&M 2000, which does not forbid a woman from serving as an elder-as in a plurality of elders governing system–how then can we justify removing the person who advocate for a woman elder to… Read more »
Pastor Dwight McKissic: “If a person affirms the BF&M 2000, which does not forbid a woman from serving as an elder-as in a plurality of elders governing system ….‘
Hi Pastor Dwight,
In a post on SBC Voices written by Kevin Howard titled, “Women and SBC Ministry: Clarifying the BF&M”</a, he notes the following:
Article 6, The Church, of the BF&M 2000, says, “While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture.”
It’s an article well worth reading.
Truth,
I am failing to make the connection between the article Kevin Howard quoted from the BF&M 2000 and my comments? Nothing in that article contradicts or refutes anything that I’ve said. Please specify how This article–that I certainly embrace & wholeheartedly believe–addresses any of my comments stated in this thread. Thanks.
Truth,
Article 6 in the BF&M 2000 does not prohibit a woman from serving as a elder in a plurality of elders governed church, or an SBC entity trustee.
o Article 6, The Church, of the BF&M 2000, says, “While both men and women are gifted for service in the church, the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture.”
o Pastor Dwight McKissic: “Article 6 in the BF&M 2000 does not prohibit a woman from serving as a elder in a plurality of elders governed church….”
Pastor Dwight, “pastor” and “elder” refer to the same office in the NT church.
Are you contending or arguing otherwise?
Truth,
First of all the BF&M does not recognize the elders system of church government. Secondly, in an elders form of church government elders are not pastors as in functioning in the role if a Senior Pastor. The BF&M does not address the scenario that we are referring to inasmuch as it does not recognize elders in local church government. Therefore, a person lobbying for a woman serving as a local church elder in a plurality of elders system is not in violation of the BFM, or the Bible.
Brother Dwight,
…am I hearing you say that Elders and Pastors are not the same critter? Or, are you saying the the BF&M does not see Elders and Pastors as the same.? Or, both?
Chris
Chris, I am saying that the BFM does not see elders & pastors as the same. The role of the elders in a plurality of elders church governmental system is almost identical to the role of trustees at SBC entities. If it is inappropriate for a woman to serve as a church elder, it would be inappropriate for a woman to serve as a entity trustee. To dismiss a person who is an advocate for a woman elder from the membership would be cruel & unusual punishment. I use to wonder how did the SBC get to the point that… Read more »
“The role of the elders in a plurality of elders church governmental system is almost identical to the role of trustees at SBC entities.”
Brother Dwight,
Not sure what the above line describes, but it certainly does not make any biblical sense. If elders are seen by the SBC in that fashion….that would be gross ignorance when compared to the scriptures.
All I know is that “SBC entities” are foreign when it comes to the concept of a church. So, no gender restrictions should come into play in a non-church entity.
-Chris
Pastor Dwight: “Truth, First of all the BF&M does not recognize the elders system of church government.” It doesn’t?! Many, many SBC churches have a plurality of elders polity for their church government. “Secondly, in an elders form of church government elders are not pastors as in functioning in the role if a Senior Pastor.” I’m not clear what you’re saying here. Are you saying that elders are not pastors unless they are a senior pastor? Please clarify. “The BF&M does not address the scenario that we are referring to inasmuch as it does not recognize elders in local church… Read more »
Here is a small laundry list of potentially “divisive” issues that I have witnessed in Baptist churches [not necessarily Southern Baptist]. 1. Dealing with the assertion that the King James version is the only appropriate version because any other English language version is “modern”. [I am aware of this controversy in certain landmark Baptist churches (particularly in NE Tennessee) but not in any SBC congregation] 2. Dealing with various eschatological views as if holding to any one of them is tantamount to having a “correct view of the Bible”. 3. Arguing whether or not the flood in Noah’s time covered… Read more »
Truth, 1. You have provided no proof that the BFM affirms a plurality of elders church government polity, because no such proof exists. Paige Patterson has published a work-if my memory serves me correctly-arguing against the elders form of church government. Patterson would never argue against the BFM. 2.Elders in a plurality of elders church government polity system are not pastors in any traditional sense of the term-pastor. Any one elder does not carry the influence and authority that a Senior Pastor generally carry. Therefore, you cannt compare an individual elder to a Senior Pastor in a church governmental sense.… Read more »
Pastor Dwight McKissic: “You have provided no proof that the BFM affirms a plurality of elders church government polity, because no such proof exists.” The empirical proof is that there are many, many SBC churches that purposefully have a plurality of elders church polity. The BFM does not prohibit the plurality of elders church polity. ” Elders in a plurality of elders church government polity system are not pastors in any traditional sense of the term-pastor.” Of course they are. As I stated above, ““pastor” and “elder” refer to the same office in the NT church.” “Question: Do you believe… Read more »
Truth,
Truth
Thanks for your answer. Would you please answer the question that I asked Chris regarding whether or not you support SBC ladies who were denied an opportunity to serve as VP at the IMB, and as professors at SWBTS? Since you believe that gender should not come into play at a non-church entity, surely, you must be highly disturbed by these actions, where gender drove these decisions admittedly by the persons who made the decisions?
Pastor Dwight,
#1. These are issues that I’m not aware of.
#2. It’s a red herring distraction away from the specific topic being discussed.
Question: In the church that you are the pastor of, are there women ordained to the office of elder in your church?
Truth, These are germane issues and very familiar issues in recent years in SBC life. They were hotly debated on the blogs. You are dodging answering these pertinent questions. I will be glad to answer the question that you asked me ’bout ordained women elders in my church. But, first you must answer my questions: (1) Do you believe that it is biblical for a woman to serve as a trustee in a SBC entity? (2) Do you believe that a woman should be denied an opportunity to serve as a VP at the IMB simply because she is a… Read more »
Pastor Dwight: “I will be glad to answer the question that you asked me ’bout ordained women elders in my church. But, first you must answer my questions: ” Okay. (1) Do you believe that it is biblical for a woman to serve as a trustee in a SBC entity? Is this SBC entity a SBC church-entity or a SBC non-church entity? If it’s a SBC non-church entity, then the idea of “biblical” has no bearing since the Bible does not speak to women serving in non-church entities. As such, if a woman serves as trustee in a SBC non-church… Read more »
Oooops! “As such, if a woman serves as trustee in a SBC non-church entity, it’s not a nonissue.”
Should be written as:
As such, if a woman serves as trustee in a SBC non-church entity, it’s a nonissue.
Truth,
It’s a “non-issue” is not the same as an answer to my question. I still don’t know from you the answer to my questions. As soon as I get a answer to my question–yes or no, or something that in close proximity to yes or no–then I will gladly answer your question. Sorry, “non-issue” is not an answer to very simple straightforward questions.
“As soon as I get a answer to my question–yes or no, or something that in close proximity to yes or no–then I will gladly answer your question.”
If SBC non-church entity, then NO.
truth, Thanks. Do you believe that it is biblically permissible for a woman to serve as a SBC trustee, IMB-VP, SBC seminary theology professor in Hebrew and Church History? Yes or No? You said: “If SBC non-church entity, then No.” No, what? Would you please give a complete answer to my question. I promise you when you do, I will give you a complete answer to your question. This is my last time asking. If you don’t give a full answer that a third grader could understand, then, again, we are wasting each others time, and I won’t bother asking… Read more »
Me: “If SBC non-church entity, then No.” Pastor Dwight: “No, what?” Should a woman not be allowed to serve as a trustee in a SBC non-church entity because she is a woman? NO. Do you believe that a woman should be denied an opportunity to serve as a VP at the IMB simply because she is a woman? NO. Should a woman be denied tenure as a professor of church history in the school of theology on the basis that she is a woman? NO. Should a woman be denied an opportunity to teach Hebrew at a SBC seminary on… Read more »
Chris, “no gender restrictions should come into play in a non-church entity”? Does that mean that the lady at the IMB who was refused a position as VP; and Dr. Sherri Klouda who was refused a position as professor of Hebrew; and Dr. Karen Bullock who was refused tenure–all because they were women–in your opinion–were they treated wrong? Gender restrictions did come into play in all of these decisions in a non-church entity. The irony of this discussion is: if a person was an advocate for restricting minorities from the plurality of elders local church government system…there would be no… Read more »
truth, Thanks. I do have elders. I have no ordained elders-period; at least not as of yet. There are no women or men ordained to the office of elder in CBC. I have no women elders period at the current time. At one point for what I considered biblical/theological reasons I was opposed to the idea of a woman serving as an elder. But after further review and study, and considering how differently elders function in our church–so radically different than how a Senior Pastor function–I don’t believe that it would be a violation of Scripture for a woman to… Read more »
truth,
“no gender restrictions should come into play in a non-church entity”
I wish that mindset would rule the day in SBC life. The SBC would be a much greater and biblically reflective Kingdom enterprise if that were to take place.
“I do have elders. I have no ordained elders-period; at least not as of yet. There are no women or men ordained to the office of elder in CBC. I have no women elders period at the current time.”
So you’re saying that you have non-ordained male elders in your church?
What is a non-ordained elder? I’m not at all familiar with this.
truth,
Non-ordained male elders are the same as ordained male elders, other than the ceremony of ordaination.
Pastor Dwight,
How does a non-ordained elder come into his office of eldership? Appointed or elected or congregational vote or what?
Brother Dwight,
Your view of how women serve in the church is probably much like a friend of mine, Daniel Vestal. Daniel and I have had very good discussions concerning the biblical evidence of women aspiring to Elder/Pastor. He came to much the same conclusion as you have, and did admit that his hermeneutic was required to change to come to that conclusion. A consistent hermeneutic will not allow for his conclusion, so I did appreciate his honesty about why he changed his position; yet I am forced to disagree with him based upon consistency.
Blessings,
Chris
Chris,
I am not following your line of thinking about a consistent hermeneutic must apply to this decision regarding women in ministry. I totally agree. Help me to understand from your vantage point how am I applying an inconsistent hermeneutic in order to arrive at my position in women in ministry? Thanks.
Brother Dwight, Yes,… relative to the conversation I had with Daniel and the Apostle Paul’s first letter to Timothy, he has become convinced that Paul has somehow included women within the aspect of aspiring to Elder as the Apostle explains their serving or deaconess aspects. Since the text does not allow for that inference, Daniel has gone on to understanding that the meaning can be extended. Yet a consistent hermeneutic would expose the fact that women like men are to serve the church, yet separate in the aspect of aspiring to Eldership the role is exclusive to men. It appeared… Read more »
Dwight,
The Seminary was in error and made poor choices.
Within the church body though, men are commanded to lead as elders/pastors… Same critter. Women are not given the option, biblically.
Blessings
Chris
Chris,
How do you explain Junia, the female apostle in Romans 16; Lydia who was the first church planter on European soil, and Priscilla-whose name is often listed/mentioned before her husband & she shared ministry responsibilities with him? It is not as simple as men did all the leading as if women didn’t also have leading roles. And oh yea…let’s not forget Phoebe, who Paul instructed the men at Rome to “assist her ” in whatever she ask you to do. Examples of women leading & serving are scattered throughout the Old & New Testaments.
Chris & truth,
Perhaps the “agitator” at the church that this post centers around, had these examples in mind when he/she was advocating for a female representation as a part of the body of elders.
Brother Dwight, You are over simplifying and broadening the norm given in scripture. The question is not whether the female gender is capable of leading. That is never in question, and many women do a wonderful job, and will continue to do a wonderful job. Elders/Pastors, being men leading the church is the norm given by Christ and his Apostles to the church. Do other things happen, of course. The treatment of specific women at the Seminary seemed to be more political than biblical. I for one will not conflate the issue that a woman teaching greek or hebrew equates… Read more »
Chris, Thanks. The huge question for me is this: is the function & role of biblical elders analogous to the function & role of elders today? Elders essentially function as an executive committee or as a board of trustees. To that extent I have no problem with a woman serving in this capacity. Maybe elders is the incorrect title for the functions in which they actually perform. I do not believe that a woman can biblically serve as a Senior Pastor. I don’t see in Scripture where a woman is forbidden to serve as an elder. If a woman exercising… Read more »
Brother Dwight, Oh, yes…I see your point. The Elder that I am referring to is the qualified men that the Apostle is teaching Timothy about and are supplied by the Holy Spirit to the church for its edification. Qualification being the key! If the contemporary church, Baptist or otherwise, simply gives a corporate or political title of “elder” to someone, ….well, that would be an obvious misuse of the term, since the biblical “Elder” is clearly a qualified man aspiring to lead the congregation. Couple of things: 1. Change the title to something else: Helper, Corporate Assistance, Prayer Warrior, etc.… Read more »
Brother Dwight,
Another quick note… a Senior Pastor (say in the Baptist world) is a Pastor, is an Elder. They are one and the same. I realize some in the Baptist clan use the term one way, and then there are others in other clans that use it differently as well. So, A Senior Pastor, with a staff of other Pastors will all be Elders. The Senior Pastor is not qualified differently than the other Pastors. In other words,….All Pastor/Elders have the same qualification.
Elders that are made by appointment, but without biblical qualification are not biblical Elders.
Blessings,
Chris
Chris, I appreciate your response. I think that we are moving closer to common ground. Does the title really matter though? Was Paul being descriptive and prescriptive, or just descriptive? I am thinking about moving to an elders/executive council where wonen women can serve on the council, but perhaps not carry the title as elder. In Phillipians Paul mentioned two ladies who were colaborers with him in the gospel; a woman Apostle, and prominent women (Act 17) who hosted house churches. Priscilla role as reflected in Scripture would be similar to an elder’s role.i don’t think that we should get… Read more »
Roger,
I tend to agree with you except for your # 4. I really don’t see where people see anything but “day” in the Genesis account means-as in-24 hour day. One has to bring reasoning or logic from outside the text in order to believe that the Genesis account is referencing anything other than a 24 hr day.
I dont argue the point but just wonder if time existed prior to the sun, moon and stars beginning their rotations. I believe that may be the sticking point. Also yom is not always 24 hours. This opens the door to supposition. Plus my personal bent is to consider even literal passages may play a dual role as prophetic when considering the nuances of the Hebrew.
I dont think God expects us to freeze our brain while reading the bible. I take it literally, but still thinking on the further implications of what a day is without sun and moon.
truth,
It is a combination of appointment and election. Current elders and congregation nominate. Senior pastor and vice chair of elders interview. Recommendation(s) are made to the church in an Annual meeting from the Senior Pastor and Elders-body. Church votes up or down.
Pastor Dwight,
Let’s assume your church votes to approve an elder.
When does that elder start serving the church?
Does he start serving without an ordination ceremony? Is that why you say you have non-ordained elders?
truth,
There is usually a six-twelve month training period, or a season where that elder has a voice, but not a vote. Once the training or trial period has ended, he is declared an elder with full voting privileges.
truth,
Yes. He starts serving without ordination. I am not a big fan of a traditional ordination service. I see it as only marginally biblical.
Pastor Dwight, can an elder serve his entire term without being ordained?
truth,
Yes. If by ordination you mean an official formal ordination service, that is not a requirement to serve as an elder at CBC.
truth,
There will be a prayer of consecration that is held in the elders meeting which can be somewhat analogous to an ordination. But we have never referred to it as an ordination.
As a child, I began to search the Scriptures more diligently when I found out the church had been lying to me about some very basic things! Just look at the Christmas story: there weren’t three wise men – there were wise men bearing three gifts … they didn’t find Jesus in a manger – he was two years old living in a house. Or what about Noah and the ark: there weren’t two animals of every sort … there was only one pair of “unclean” critters, but seven pairs of “clean” ones! I could go on and on, but… Read more »
Yes Max and so much more, just honor others and do not allow bitterness as you grow.
Dee – Actually that childhood experience caused me to dig deeper into Bible text to retrieve Truth vs. opinions of men. I developed no bitterness in the process, as I surrendered teachings and traditions for genuine Truth. But, I have grown increasingly concerned about the widespread Biblical illiteracy of American Christians. I have been encouraged in my personal journey through the Bible by testimony of the Bereans (Acts 17) who examined the Scriptures to make sure that what even Paul was saying was true!
And the only scriptures they could check Paul against was the Torah Prophets and Writings Tanakh…a.k.a. Old Testament. Therefore it is imperative we know this foundation well enough so we don’t allow our interpretaion of Paul to contradict it. Reading John without Genesis or failing to follow clues to John’s logos, aleph tav/a.k.a. alpha omega or Paul’s mystery back to the source is perilous as shifting sand. I found catholicism was ingrained so deep in us that i had to reevaluate everything from the ground up. I really wanted that original New Testament church my pastor had always told us… Read more »
“… it is imperative we know this foundation well enough so we don’t allow our interpretation of Paul to contradict it.” Amen Dee!! We, of course, know that what Paul spoke was truth … the test for all of us is to discern that what others say Paul said is truth or not. Jesus told us not to forsake the commandments of God for the teachings and traditions of men, but the church has fallen into that trap over the centuries. If you read Paul first, you might read Jesus wrong. But if you read Jesus first, the writings of… Read more »
Dee: You make a good point. Our concept of the meaning of “day” relates to the time that the sun is up each day (or more precisely the duration between successive daylight periods) as viewed by an earthbound observer. This definition (which in today’s culture we call “24 hours”) presupposes that the sun exists. According to the Genesis account [Genesis 1:14-18] the sun did not show up until day four. This is really getting down into the weeds, but I think a reasonable case can be made that “day” [Hebrew YOM] can sometimes have some other meaning than what we… Read more »
The Hebrew word, yom, is used just as our English word, day, is used. We use the word day as opposed to night, in the sense of “daytime;” we use the word day to mean a full 24-hour period, consisting of one period of daylight and one period of nighttime; and, we use the word day to indicate an age or era, such as, “in the day of the Roman Empire,” or, “back in my father’s day,” etc. Even though we use the word day for all of these uses, we are never confused as to which meaning is intended—why… Read more »
Roger, “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy. Here… Read more »
There are ways in which a theological issue that is not otherwise divisive can be pursued divisively. There are also ways in which theologically divisive beliefs can be held without being divisive. There are also ways that someone who holds non-divisive beliefs without being divisive can be portrayed as being divisive just for holding them, when it is actually the accuser of divisiveness who is the one being divisive. Unfortunately, If the leaders of a church cannot discern the difference, perhaps it’s best to go find a less-dysfunctional church to be a member of anyway. Unfortunately, I’ve most often seen… Read more »
Jim: You are right on point here. Most people who advocate for change are good people, even if the change for which they advocate is not accepted by the group. Based on all of my reading here, the church can do 3 things that will help keep the peace, at least in the area of potential doctrinal squabbles. 1. Don’t have a doctrinal statement that addresses everything. Roger Simpson gave a good list of things that don’t need to be in a doctrinal statement. 2. Don’t have a system of polity that allows for lobbying and agitation. If a church… Read more »
Throughout most of this, it is assumed that the church has the high ground of doctrinal correctness. But let’s not forget that history has shown some divisive agitators to have actually been God-called reformers. Take any conscientious, Bible-believing evangelical and set him down in a world in which he finds himself a member of a church that is abandoning the inerrancy of Scripture and leaning toward accepting homosexual marriage, etc., and he will be an “unteachable,” divisive agitator until the point when he gives up and forsakes that assembly. He may even be looked down upon as lacking a proper… Read more »
Ken: True, just as a person who pushes a little old lady into the path of an oncoming bus is not to be compared with a person who pushes a little old lady out of the path of an oncoming bus on the grounds that these people push little old ladies around. The question for this blog is how address persistent agitators. Much of the discussion has gone in the direction of theological disagreement and how a church should handle that. It should be handled forthrightly, but delicately. I still submit that the most difficult people and issues to deal… Read more »