The most amazing thing about Southern Baptist life is how we seem to keep so many entities, programs, and initiatives slogging along for decades and scores of years in spite of great changes in society, church life, and giving patterns and amounts. Consider my use of the word “extinction” to be an example of blogging license. I don’t think I will live to see any of these actually go extinct but there are legitimate questions about their value and relevance for now and the future.
The Annual Church Profile
It’s that time, brethren. Actually, past that time to gather up your data for the dreaded Annual Church Profile. How many did you baptize? How much money did you collect? What’s your membership? How many members did you lose? Was your giving to denominational offerings average, above average, or pathetic?
It’s tough to speak of extinction when around 80% of SBC churches file the ACP. We expect to see ACP promo articles around this time of the year. Here is one from North Carolina, a particularly well done piece in that they quote a certain blogger.
The ACP is alternatively said to have either lower participation than ever or increasing levels of participation by the churches. In that most articles about the ACP attempt to persuade churches of its value, one suspects that the participation rates will be declining.
I’ve heard pastors explain that they dropped it because they were no longer willing to subject their church and personal ministry to being held up to criticism for certain reported metrics – baptisms, receipts, Cooperative Program giving, etc. I’ve heard pastors declare that some information requested (mainly financial) is simply not anyone else’s business. Besides, what is given through the state convention is reported separately.
The ACP, specifically CP giving percentages, is used in our elections and trustee appointments. What happens when outstanding, high-achieving pastors and laypeople in growing and vibrant SBC churches who do not file the ACP are considered for denominational offices, leadership roles, and trustee appointments? They will be asked for certain information and can control the data they use to answer. The ACP cannot be used as a club against certain churches and pastors if it isn’t available for use.
The denominational people tout the ACP as a tool to help churches. I read that the ACP enabled associations, state conventions, and the SBC to check on churches after Hurricane Katrina. Odd, one would have thought that any local association would know who their members are without an ACP. State conventions, an entity that some say lacks a clear future in SBC life and one that has endured years of declining support, declare the ACP to be indispensable in their strategic planning and in helping churches. It is not altogether clear that whatever they have been using to help churches has registered any level of efficacy.
Add the fact that some state conventions rebel against certain questions (Great Commission Giving is the best current example) and retool the form so as not to ask for data comparable to other states and one can see that the ACP faces a more difficult future.
Nonetheless, I’m told that our statistical reporting is the envy of other denominations. Maybe so, but I suspect that many pastors have less and less enthusiasm for reporting on the ACP.
State Baptist newspapers
My state paper, The Christian Index, just did something almost unthinkable in SBC life. It announced major changes in which (a) it will cease actually printing a paper, and, more significantly (b) the trustee board will disband. The Index will be strictly a web-based product, free, and part of the state convention administrative structure and responsibility. In other words, the Index is no longer an independent news source but rather an in-house organ of the Georgia Baptist Convention. Printing and mailing the Index was a $320,000 expense. Poof, it’s gone.
Thirty-five years ago when I was in seminary, reading the various state papers was informative. Each was a bit different and few people other than those around Baptists libraries had access to more than one or two. Things have changed. There are old codgers like me who enjoy actually holding a printed paper, with real ink, and hearing the rustle of pages as they are turned. As for consuming news, the physical paper is unnecessary. Circulation has been declining for a long, long time. I can think of very few news items reported by state papers that aren’t available elsewhere, quicker. I couldn’t justify the Cooperative Program subsidies just to supply a printed paper to the declining audience of mostly older folks.
Whether or not The Index or other state papers can gather and increase readership with their online product, and produce the advertising revenues from such, I do not know. I’m not optimistic. We will see.
Let’s see. Baptist Press is an in-house product of the SBC Executive Committee. My state paper will become an in-house product of the state convention. Wherever will a Baptist go to find news that will be ignored or not carried by either of these? Likely they will go to the news feeds of several religiously oriented national outlets. More Baptist specific stories from Baptist News Global and/or any state Baptist paper which chooses to be an independent voice. I don’t know if there will continue to be state papers that will do much more than report church news and ministerial changes.
Consider it good, bad, or neutral but a considerable number of the brethren/sistren get news relevant to the SBC from, ugh, blogs and bloggers.
The three-year MDiv degree
I have an Masters of Divinity degree. The parchment recognizing the same cost me three full school years and one intense summer and a considerable sum of money in lost wages and actual tuition costs. I do not regret the expense, the relocation, or the study but I do scratch the old noggin over some of the coursework that was required of me for which I have not had the least use as a pastor.
Would I in 2015 embark on the road towards that gold standard of Christian ministry, the MDiv degree? I’m not sure.
If asked for advice from a young colleague about such things I’m not sure what counsel I would give him. I don’t know that churches are as savvy and demanding about the level of education their pastor must have as they once were. I don’t know if the degree has significantly more value than less expensive, less time consuming degrees.
Would I borrow money and relocate to pursue the degree? Probably not.
The average SBC church is a single staff congregation with a hundred or so in worship on a given Sunday. Do they need educated, trained clergy? Yes. Do they need a college graduate with three years of post-graduate study? Probably not.
Will seminaries voluntarily reduce their revenues to provide an adequate education for pastors, prospective pastors and other Christian workers? Probably not. But if institutions can market themselves successfully and we in America have such affluence that we can all have divinity degrees then things may rock along as usual until seminaries price themselves out of the market and/or the Cooperative Program is reduced to a level insufficient to prop up six separate institutions all offering similar degrees.
The future has a definite Darwinian cast to it in regard to our six seminaries…but there are many who know a lot more than I on this subject.
_________________
I’m curious about a few things concerning my brethren here:
- Do you file the ACP? Completely? Partially? Not at all? Why?
- Do you read your state Baptist paper and do you think it has value and relevance to you and your church?
- What are your thoughts about the MDiv degree as the standard for pastoral ministry? Too many hours required? Too expensive? About right?
1) ACP – I completely agree with your theory of declining enthusiasm. I am that pastor. I fill ours out but most numbers are nothing more than fair estimates. If I’m in the wrong mood then it may not get done next year.
2) State Papers – Our church has ceased subscribing to the physical copies in our state. If you want to read it, go online. I do this but usually only out of boredom.
3) MDIV – I have one. Did the whole relocation, grind it out for 3 1/2 years thing. Both the education and experience were highly beneficial for me. I do think online classes and degrees will be the majority experience over the next 10 years.
William,
ACP – I stopped filing this 18 years ago. Why/ Because the purpose of the church is to make Disciples not Converts. This document makes no provision or even any attempt to assess effective disciple making. It is all about numbers; how many, how much and how often. So?
State News Paper- The issue is one of timinig. By the time they publish the content is ‘old news(selah)!
M.Div. – Absolutely crucial when the biblical languages are required. I received the finest theological education possible in that routine and it continues to guide me to this day. There are many changes being made in where and how these courses are being offered and the cost is significantly modified by these changes. cf. http://www.expositors.org. $200/hour cf. to Trinity in Deerfield @ $650/hour. Don’t through the baby out with the bath water!
Thanks for the questions.
1) ACP – Fill this out religiously. I don’t feel judged and the info is useful. Ok, maybe a bit judged…..
2) State Papers – The Alabama Baptist is still relevant to our church members. We subscribe for all members as a budget item. Many of my folks are not going online to read it and this is their only news source on these subjects.
3) MDIV – Life changing for me (and my wife). I would wish this education for my kids (and everyone) if it were possible. There is nothing that I learned at SEBTS that has gone unused. Too expensive due to CP giving on the decline. I still take a class a year (on a second graduate degree) just to keep learning. Most classes I take have nothing to do with my second degree requirements and I wish all these classes were available as MOOC (not for credit) for free. Looking at a class on Church Revitalization this Spring. $700+ that I can only afford because I am bi-vocational. Mildly resent the tech fee that is attached to online classes.
Most, the big majority, of church members are not going to go online and read the state Baptist newspaper or Baptist Press.
If the state paper is mailed to them, they are much more likely to at least thumb through it.
Leave it laying around the house, and other family members may look through it as well.
Occasionally mention an article in it at church, and more will look through it.
Subscribe at least your church staff, deacons, Sunday School teachers to the state paper.
I know I’m outdated, but I still believe in subscribing to a hard copy of the state Baptist paper
http://texanonline.net/
and other papers such as “The Biblical Evangelist.”
Those type papers sure helped me answer a lot of questions as a kid.
David R. Brumbelow
The Biblical Evangelist:
http://biblicalevangelist.org/
David R. Brumbelow
I have found that most state Baptist papers that are not independent of the Convention are propaganda at best. I mean that in the best sense of the word, meaning it’s just a cheerleading piece for the state convention. Any hope of serious journalism is out.
I fill out the acp, but I do it really more for our churches benefit than others. I wish I could do it without submitting it. I am history buff, and enjoy looking through the past ACP reports of the 100 plus years of our church, and when I am gone, what little I have filled out in ACP can be a little bit of statistical history. I like the ACP for that part, for keeping historical records.
I currently attend MBTS, and our president Jason Allen has recently said that the MDIV is the gold standard and necessary for all pastors. I tend to agree that it is helpful for all everyone who can do it, but I disagree that all pastors must have one. That’s not quite what he said, but the hyperbole was a bit much for me.
Luke,
Is there a link available to Dr. Allen saying that? I would be interested in his exact words.
This what I was thinking about. To be fair he says it was the gold standard and rightly do, and that the mdiv should be recovered http://jasonkallen.com/2015/09/why-we-must-recover-the-master-of-divinity-degree/
I think some are extrapolating things from Dr. Allen’s comments that he did not say. Dr. Allen did not say that one has to have an M.Div. to be a good pastor. He did not say that the MA is a useless degree. He did not say that Bachelors degrees aren’t worth the paper they are written on.
When he says that the M.Div. is the gold standard, I take him to mean that it is the ideal education level for a pastor. I tend to agree. That doesn’t mean that having an M.Div. automatically makes someone a better pastor. It also doesn’t mean that the lack of an M.Div. makes someone a bad pastor. It means that young preachers making decisions about what education level to pursue should strongly consider pursuing an M.Div. Many of the arguments being made against what Dr. Allen said could be used no matter what level of education he chose to encourage as the gold standard. It is hard to argue that a B.A. is the gold standard. And I’m glad he didn’t suggest that the D.Min. or Ph.D. is the gold standard.
It certainly implies that those lacking what he identifies as the gold standard are lacking in necessary credential to be pastors.
I don’t blame Dr. Allen for saying or even believing that. He should, as a seminary prez, think that way and say those things. I’m sure the other presidents concur – as do profs- that is thier job – to promote the seminary.
It is very understandable that a seminary president or professor will believe in what he does to the point that he will promote it – which is what I think you intended.
I had peers that believed in their education and some that were simply after the parchment and were generally not there to learn. Both groups got what they wanted from the experience.
– Our church clerk fills out the ACP. If it was mined to do it would likely not get done…or many of the numbers would be based on my best guess vs. documented evidence gathered all year long.
– We do have a State Paper in MO. It is good but I do not know why we don’t just go with the internet version, which we also have.
– I do have an MDIV and feel it was very beneficial. HOwever, it colkd have been done online. And going to SWBTS, the LARGEST seminary in the WORLD at the time I was there, I was really in a SBC bubble with very little opportunity to minister in t he real world. I believe an online degree would have worked better for me allowing me to be on staff at a church perhaps as an intern or associate while I served. Uprooting the famiy for seminary is a high bar…but then I also think we graduate TOO MANY preacher boys from TOO MANY SBC seminaries…there is NOT a supply pblm of preachers in the SBC.
From the perspective of a non-seminary person but one who has served on way too many pulpit committees, I think an MDiv is way overkill for the average SBC pastor.
I know that in our state we’ve stopped printing and mailing our state paper. We are a small state and it was a huge expense. Now, its available online. If someone wants it in print there are two possibilities. A church can print it for its members, or people can subscribe for home delivery. I’m guessing even that might go away as the older, non-computer generation gradually leaves us.
I used to do the ACP back in Cedar Rapids. Now, my staff does it. When I did it in CR, two things were true. 1. It was always late. 2. It was filled with “estimations.” I didn’t take the time to track down accurate numbers. I just estimated everything. I got the $ pretty carefully, but everything else was a shot-in-the-dark estimate.
Oh, and I usually tried to report baptisms pretty carefully.
I hope William is wrong about the MDiv, but I think he might not be.
My idea is that seminary ought to be 2 years on campus and about 2 years of internship.
I like that.
I finished my MDiv in 2000 at NOBTS. I got most of my hours via extension center (in Birmingham). I think extension centers and online options will only grow in importance.
Back when I was a student the accrediting agency (or agencies) required a full year’s worth of studies to be done on campus for MDiv students. This is why I ended up moving to the main campus to finish things up. I think this requirement is antiquated and I hope it will be changed (if it hasn’t already).
1. ACP–Pointless, but we fill it out anyway as a matter of SBC habit;
2. State Papers–Online presence is all we need anymore. Printed papers are a thing of the past and too expensive. Move on;
3. MDiv–Many churches still require it as they look for a pastor. It should be truncated, though. A 3-year degree is the equivalent of a doctorate in most other fields of study as far as time and academic hours is concerned. I agree with Dave (sort of): 2 years of academics combined with some sort of intern or practicum. I’m not sure that the latter should take 2 years to complete. 1 year should suffice. Eliminate all the extraneous stuff. Focus on Bible, hermeneutics, preaching, languages, and counseling. Maybe offer the courses like a D. Min. is done with a cohort of students that do academic work off-campus and then come together for a few days to work through the material together. Languages would be a little harder for me without the day-to-day interaction. Not sure how to approach the languages.
Can I point something out, just for the sake of our readers?
We allow anonymous comments, thought I am not a big fan, except in certain situations. What I do not allow is fake emails. I have to have a way to get in touch with you if I need to. So, if I see a comment in moderation (your first comment ALWAYS goes in moderation) and I see a suspicious email address, the comment isn’t getting posted.
You can remain anonymous if you like. But fake emails are not permitted.
“. . . and I see a suspicious email address . . .”
Like, for instance, davemillerisajerk@hotmail.com?
Hey, email me on that one and I will email you right back!
For you who want to cut the M.Div down by a third, what classes do you want to cut?
Also, why not just get an M.A.? That’s what most music ministers do.
I am so hazy on what all the MDiv required- finished mine 10 years ago- that I am hesitant to try to list classes that I found unhelpful.
Here are the classes that I would require:
History of Christianity 1&2
Hermeneutics
Philosophy of Religion
At least 12 hours in OT&NT study
1 semester of Greek and 1 semester of Hebrew- with both focused on using tools and not rote memorization
Systematic Theology
At least 2 semesters of homiletics- one devoted exclusively to sermon prep and one to presentation- with a variety of styles studied and used- narrative, expository, topical, etc
I am sure I am missing one or two other essentials. I know I would cut biblical backgrounds (one of the worst classes ever), meld baptist history in church history, and offere classes on counseling, evangelism, leadership, etc as electives rather than as requirements.
18-24 months classroom max and 6 month internship or on the job training.
Just my thoughts.
I’d break it down something like this for a two-year master’s (which is still more than most master’s degrees require in other fields of study):
One year each for Greek and Hebrew
One semester for textual criticism (so you can intelligently speak to thsoe pesky passages in brackets or excluded from the newer translations)
One year of systematic
one semester of hermeneutics
one semester of logic (philosophy of religion isn’t all that helpful–and I have 18 hours in philosophy at the master’s level. Logic is much more useful.)
One year of church history
One year of preaching
One year of counseling
Fill in any more hours with electives
A third year of practicum in a ministry setting with time spent in cohorts for discussion–these could be done with online conferencing on a weekly basis; then get together once a semester for a few days to go over the entire semester’s work.
For all coursework, I believe that research papers synthesizing the courses being taken should be submitted. By research I mean papers that are actually master’s level work. I graded papers as a graduate assistant for a few semesters at Southwestern. Some of the papers I read made my head hurt. Some of the essays I read on exams lacked substance and logical argument (thus, my suggestion above of a semester of logic).
“(which is still more than most master’s degrees require in other fields of study)”
When one considers that many (not all but many) also got undergrad degrees in pastoral ministry or biblical studies or language concentrations it becomes more interesting.
It could also be argued, under the mantra, that the “super gold” standard is one who got a Bachelors in biblical studies and then an Masters – as he would be much more educated in Biblical religious studies than one who got a non ministry focused Bachelors and then went on to an Masters? RIght? 😉
True. However, I steer any young person thinking about a BA or BS in biblical studies, pastoral ministry, etc., away from such a choice. Maybe it’s my personal bias as a bi-vocational pastor, but I believe it’s beneficial to get a degree in some other field and possibly minor in one of these ministry areas. Also, there are those attending seminary who didn’t attend a Christian undergrad school, so such an option isn’t available to them (unless they want to go the liberal route so prevalent in most liberal arts university religion programs).
1. Here in Oklahoma we still have a physical paper — THE BAPTIST MESSENGER. I get it in the mail every week and I pay for it out of my own pocket because the church I’m a member of here does not pay for it for its members. I agree with many commentators here that it is mostly a PR arm of the SBC and doesn’t really have much journalism other that press releases from the seminaries and the exec committee. However, it does have an editorial each week from Dr. Jordan [our state exec] and Brian Hobbs [the editor]. Both those guys call em’ like they see em’ and they are always worth reading. Also, about a month ago the messenger actually printed stuff from the blog of Dr. Jeff Iorg [who is the president of Golden Gate Seminary]. Dr. Iorg mentioned that many pastors don’t tithe themselves so how could anyone possibly expect that the guys in the pews would. My point is that the Messenger prints stuff that is not politically correct. So I think it is a pretty good paper.
2. ACP. Here in Oklahoma all of the ACP info is up on the internet and public. That is because the ACP stuff is in the Annual and the Annuals are up on the internet way back to the 1920’s. I have extracted stuff from these for some of the data crunching I’ve done relative to CP giving vs. church size as a function of time over decades. But about 20% of the churches don’t report ACP stuff. My own anecdotal research suggests that the 20% number has not changed since the 1950s. The ACP stuff is only usable if it is in machine readable form.
However, recently some state conventions have “locked the ACP data” so you can browse the PDF but not download the data for your own analysis.
Another ominous situation is that exec committee has sub-contracted the handling of the ACP data for the entire SBC to Lifeway and Lifeway won’t share the ACP data with anyone. The ACP data that Lifeway has in on an Access database which makes it easily usable by nerds like me who have an IS background and graduate level statistics training. But they won’t give me a copy of it {even if I sign some type of non-disclosure agreement — not to share the data except in some aggregated form}. I don’t like the trend to lock up the ACP data. Getting it is worse than trying to get into Ft. Knox.
3. Seminary. I took some classes at the Silicon Valley campus of Western Seminary. I have to admit that I had trouble with Hebrew. But I guess at age 55 I was too old to readily learn a new language. I was working on an MDiv since I wanted to have the best training possible. I was footing the bill for this. However, after about a year into this my wife developed MS and also I got a pink slip from the place I worked for 30+ years as a microcode designer. So I became a self employed consultant — working 80 hr weeks. I didn’t continue seminary because I didn’t have the time and in any case I didn’t think the IMB (or anybody else) would touch me given that my wife has MS and I have an adult daughter with significant mental retardation.
Roger Oklahoma City
I don’t know that much about the policies states have for access to ACP data but it makes sense to me that they would allow less access in order to assuage the pastors and churches that do not want anyone browsing their numbers. Those churches would then be more comfortable with providing the ACP data.
Associations used to put every number in the annual and give out hard copies.
I’m curious what states and associations do these days.
As for the response rate, LifeWay said a couple of years ago that the rate had never been lower.
Fill out the ACP, usually in the nick of time.
The Baptist Courier in SC does a nice job of being sort of a hometown paper. Sort of like “The Mayberry Gazette.” The church still gets a physical copy.
Was 39 when saved and called. Went to work in the church and am pursuing degree online. Don’t tbink an MDiv should be some sort of standard. God calls and equips. We study to show ourselves approved but not sure how anyone can say that any level of formal education is what should be required. My theological education is something I enjoy and need. My near 20 years of managing and owning businesses equipped me in a way that formal education cannot, particularly in dealing with people.
1) We usually fill out the APC, but a good bit of it is of educated (and sometimes less than educated) guesses. And whether we fill it out at all depends on how timely we get info from the Sunday School secretary and treasurer. It is not a priority for any of us.
2) Until this article ran, I had not even noticed or missed getting the state paper on a regular basis. I read it when it came, and back 20-30 years ago, I would have said it was vital. But in this electronic age–not so much, especially with so many of them becoming just publicity agents for the state convention.
3) I agree, some classes toward my M.Div. were not very productive (same is true of my doctorate), but here I am biased. I love learning, would not trade much of anything for my classes (even the ones which were unproductive), and believe there is still and always will be a need for pastors to be well-educated. As my Hebrew prof said, “If you don’t learn the original languages, then for your entire ministry, you will be taking someone else’s word for what the Bible says.” Classically, a bachelor’s degree meant you were ready to learn; a master’s that you could teach, but under supervision, and a doctorate, that you were ready to teach. I have known guys (both in the pulpit and the pew) who thought that the purpose of seminary was to get a lifetime supply of sermons. I say no! The purpose is to enter the pastorate (or other ministry) prepared to think theologically with your people, their problems, and the opportunities!
John
I agree that the main point of seminary is to cover the basics, so that no biblical or ministry topic is completely foreign to you, but it’s not going to make you an expert in everything, it teaches you how to learn, and what topics of learning are most important….for example, I’m teaching about world religions in Sunday School right now, and am learning a bunch of stuff I never learned in seminary…and that’s fine…that wasn’t what seminary was for.
I started an mdiv program at SBTS, then got married, took a staff pastor position, and switched to the Master of arts. I have no regrets. I really enjoyed my 4 year MA, and know many friends who’s mdiv took 6-7 years, but advising someone now, I almost always push the MA, and get involved in ministry…
I would like to just comment on the MDiv issue. I am pro education, but I am not pro intellectualism. I have personally known seminary graduates who would tell their people that they are the most qualified to tell the people what the Bible means. Aside from the unmitigated arrogance of such a comment, it also flies into the face of the message of the scriptures which tell us that the Holy Spirit is the prof when you open the Bible.
One commenter said that Dr. Allen from Midwestern said that an MDiv is necessary for all pastors. Hello, he is a seminary president selling a product to a shrinking market. Further, what Dr. Allen is saying is about as unbiblical as you can get.
By intellectualism, I meant elitism.
Agreed, John.
A seminary professor/official stating that the product that only he/his entity offers is the “gold standard”/requirement for pastors is a great marketing strategy to say the least. Its been successful though as many church search committees have bought into it.
I have know guys with MDiv’s who are/were rotten pastors and ones without that piece of paper who were phenomenal.
Yep, but calling is a difficult thing for a search committee to discern, so they look to degrees. Anyone who despises education is foolish. Anyone who believes one must have a certain level of formal education to pastor denies the power of the Holy Spirit to teach and equip
That is correct.
Seems with search committees – as is often true in lots of ‘church” work – we have two extremes:
“”we don’t want no highly educated preacher!”
and
“you absolutely must have this or that degree”
Both are wrong approaches, IMO.
Agree. But most search committees are clueless, sadly. If I based my decision here off the search committee that dealt with me I would have run for the hills. But, it was clear to us this was where God wanted us in spite of them. Not bad people, just ignorant as to what a true vetting process is. Thankfully, I vetted them so they didn’t have too ?
For the times I have been on a pulpit committee, i can tell you that seminary mattered, but degree didn’t, at least not in a positive way. Master’s or higher turned some people off. Some years of experience would have easily substituted for seminary.
Thanks guys for the response. Bill Mac I certainly appreciated your comment. I started pastoring at 25 years old. By the time most people were finishing their MDiv I had been pastoring for 5 years.
Also, I would like to say that with all the bible study resources we have today, there is nothing that an MDiv grad knows that I don’t have access to. Further, I am thinking right now of a young pastor who is finishing up his bachelors degree this semester is already a better bible expositor and preacher than most MDiv holders that I know.
About the MDiv, there was a time in the history of the sbc when there was no seminary and for 50 years only one, Southern. Clearly, SBS believed that churches were better off with theologically educated pastors. I am grateful for my training at SWBTS. Dr. AL Fasol taught me how to preach. Dr. Cal Guy taught me about missions. Dr. Fite taught me how to care for hurting people. I will always be grateful for the opportunity I had to learn from godly professors like these. I affirm the call for internship. In the Lutheran Church the MDIV program is 4 years, including a one year internship.
Dr. Mark Terry taught me how to write well and to love missions.