Think being the biggest, richest, hottest, coolest SBC seminary doesn’t matter? It does to a lot of people although I wouldn’t have any hesitation in recommending any of the SBC’s six plus that outstanding Seventh, Mid-America Baptist Theological Seminary. No numbers on the latter in the SBC Book of Reports but plenty of the six.
Enrollment (Full-Time Equivalent, funded and unfunded; total credit hours divided by 24)
SBTS 2,294
NOBTS 1,309
SEBTS 1,278
SWBTS 1,249
MWBTS 931
GS 490
Increasing FTE (three year trend): Southern, Midwestern.
Decreasing FTE: Gateway, New Orleans, Southeastern, Southwestern.
As a group, seminary enrollment as measured by FTE has declined 2.4% over the past three years. Gateway has declined the most, 16.4% but then they went through the relocation. Southeastern is close behind, declining 15.8%. I’m guessing that one would need to look at a longer span of years to know exactly what is going on.
Actual FTEs approved by the Council of Seminary Presidents for CP Seminary Funding Formula
SBTS 2,294
SEBTS 1,278
SWBTS 1,249
NOBTS 1,120
MWBTS 931
GS 388
Some students don’t “count” when it comes to sharing in CP funding; that is, the numbers that are used to allocate the seminary’s share of the SBC CP allocation. Someone else can explain who counts and who doesn’t.
Basic Degrees awarded for the 2015-2016 academic year (MDiv + Th.M + M.A. & other 2-year)
SBTS 379
SWBTS 356
GS 341
SEBTS 328
NOBTS 240
MWBTS 105
Gateway needs far more sheepskins per dollar, since they awarded 237 “M.A. & other 2-year” degrees, more than any other seminary. The number of traditional degrees was much lower: 69 MDiv degrees and 35 ThM degrees. Someone can explain this. I had a conversation with a Gateway prof in Phoenix but cannot recall what exactly accounted for this. Edumacate me.
Cheapest and Most Expensive
Cheapest: SWBTS estimates the annual cost for a married SBC student on campus, tuition, books, fees, and housing is $10,220.
Most expensive: SBTS estimates the annual cost for a married SBC student on campus, tuition, books, fees, and housing is $17,740. That’s 74% higher than the cheapest.
Cheapest tuition per credit hour for an SBC student: SWBTS, $220.
Most expensive tuition per credit hour for an SBC student: SBTS, $280. That’s 27% higher than the cheapest.
New Orleans, Midwestern, and Southwestern are about the same in credit hour costs.
Assorted odd figures
- Midwestern awarded just 27 MDiv degrees for the 2015-2016 academic year. That’s less than 3% of their FTE. That’s way lower than the other five.
- Southern received more tuition revenue for 2016-2017 than GS, MWBTS, and NOBTS combined.
- The CP allocation formula is rather funky and I don’t know how it is figured but the per-SBC student allocation for SEBTS was $2,535. Gateway’s was more than three times that amount per student.
- Southern received 8.3% of their revenues from endowment income. Midwestern received only 0.6%. Southwestern had a negative $3.8 million in endowment income.
Someone has headaches over all this.
Things have changed quite a bit since the Conservative Resurgence days when SWBTS dwarfed everyone else. Does Paige need to move on for the sake of SWBTS?
ALSO, What are everyone’s thoughts about the 4 year undergrad degrees now offered by many if not all of our 6 seminaries? Is that a good idea given the number of great Baptists colleges and universities out there? Is the undergrad presence getting in the way of Graduate training…sure sounds like it is a factor at MWBTS…
SWBTS has low tuition and raises much more in donations than the other six.
Clearly, the undergrad business has changed the landscape. Now, state schools offer MDivs in competition with the seminaries. If we established seminaries as places where ministers would get the Gold Standard MDiv and other advanced degrees, then Midwestern is doing a poor job. The whole system is structured for duplications and inefficiencies. It’s tough to see how we can maintain the system for another few generations…but maybe I’m too skeptical. I’m not in the seminary culture.
William & Allen, SWBTS faces by a long shot more competition that any other SBC seminary for students with evangelical and moderate-liberal seminaries and graduate schools within the DFW region and the state of Texas. That may explain why SWBTS no longer hold its lofty enrollment status compared to the other SBC seminaries. Students attracted to SWBTS may be equally or for various reasons, more so attracted to Dallas Theological Seminary, Criswell College, Dallas Baptist University, The Kings Universtiy, Truett Seminary(only 75 miles from DFW) or even more more moderate-liberal schools such as Brite Divinity School(TCU), Perkins School of Divinity(SMU),… Read more »
When it comes to minority representation among the faculty, Southwestern is doing better than anyone else in the SBC. We should not rest on our laurels, but when we do something well, a little appreciation can go a long way.
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Rick, since Dwight has specifically asked about appeal to young black ministerial students, what is the percentage of black faculty at SWBTS? other seminaries? Do you have those numbers in your data?
Rick,
I hear rumors of one having recently being hired, but currently there is not one Black Professor in the School of Theology. Don’t think there’s been one since Dr. Raymond’s Spencer passed in ’bout 2003. Therefore, if a Black student wanted to take at least one theology course under one Black professor during his degree plan, that opportunity hadn’t presented itself in the past 14 yrs. Your wonderful and noteworthy statistics don’t contradict or refute what I’m saying here.
Mr. McKissic makes an excellent point about the competition faced by SWBTS in the greater DFW area, irrespective of Patterson’s influence or persona (full disclosure – I attended SEBTS while Patterson was president there). Similar comparisons could be made at South Eastern, who is located only a short distance away from campuses of: Gordon- Conwell, Reformed Theological, Southern Evangelical (where Richard Land and Norman Geisler are faculty), Gardner Webb School of Divinity (NC Baptist College), Campbell University Divinity School (another NC Baptist College), Wake Forest University School of Divinity, Duke Divinity, and a little further north in Virginia, Union Theological… Read more »
My topic here is pretty sterile. I don’t know enough to argue the point that SWBTS (or any of the others) is or is not “hardline cessationist, hypercomplementarian, and Republican.” If the evidence were laid out in a separate article I’d guess that it would be of interest.
I’ll offer an educated guess as to the lower than normal MDiv graduates at Midwestern.
That’s how bare the cupboard was when Dr. Allen got there. He’s only been there a short time. Not nearly long enough to graduate significant numbers of students who have to go through an 81-hour program. My guess is that number will skyrocket over the next 2-3 years once “his students” start finishing their degrees.
That’s a point worth considering. Everything I hear about MWBTS sounds like things are going well and trending upward.
(Notice how I fixed that acronym for them?) 😉
When I spoke there at chapel, I suggested they fixed their acronym and was met with a chilly reception. Come to think of it, I’ve not been asked back.
My perception is that each seminary has its own flavor, so to speak, and for me that is fine. There are issues of regionalism, emphasis, and personality that affect all of these things. SWBTS had really high enrollment numbers for years because of the perception that a student could attend there and not be awash in liberalism, which was stronger at Southern and SEBTS. New Orleans, GG, and MWBTS were seen as more regional, I suppose. The founding of the seminary at Baylor had a big impact on SWBTS. Also, Reformed theology is the rage with young people, and SWBTS… Read more »
Louis, Great point ’bout the popularity of Reformed theology with the younger generations, and consequently choosing other seminaries. I personally know of at least eight students who enrolled in other schools because of SWBTS cessationist views, or didn’t enroll because of it, or in combination with their perception of how Dr. Klouda was unfairly dismissed at SWBTS. Others I don’t know personally, but have either emailed me, written to me, or spoken to me in passing and told me that they chose not to go to SWBTS because of their perceived cessationist views. The King’s University/Gateway Church had 700-800 students… Read more »
Thanks for the info Dwight. You are obviously in contact with students who are aware of these things. My own perception about cessationism in the SBC is that in practice the SBC is cessationist. I know lots of folks who are uncomfortable officially closing the door on some of the gifts, but in practice, I would say the vast majority of SBC Churches would not openly have charismatic practices. They would allow for private things, and there are always those seemingly unverifiable stories you hear about missionaries somewhere and this or that thing happened etc. People are uncomfortable ruling something… Read more »
Louis, Younger guys are intrigued with R C Sproul, John Piper, John MaCArthur, and many with Mark Driscoll…all reformed guy’s as u know. Matt Chandler, J D Grear, and David Platt have their fan clubs among the young, and they are considered to be reformed. Yes. I’m seeing the reformed movement gain traction even among young African Americans where it was strongly frowned upon. Guys like H B Charles, Thabiti Anyabwele and several young Black reformed fellowship groups have influenced the growth among young African Americans. The Sherri Klouda story was a huge news story here in the DFW metroplex… Read more »
The over-arching issue driving enrollment is probably reformed theology. If you can’t go to Midwestern or Southern, or Southeastern and you are are reformed, you just sort of grin and bear it through the pot-shots and Traditionalist chapel speakers, remembering that these are brothers in Christ talking about a legitimate disagreement. Plenty of Reformed guys speak in chapel too. The education I received at Southwestern was excellent, but they are graduating more reformed pastors than they think. Around 2006 or 2007, I recall going to see Paul Washer speak at a little church in Aledo, TX. The crowd was full… Read more »
I think (and hope) that prospective students are basing their decisions on more factors than that. No doubt it comes into consideration from both sides. But the educational experience, especially faculty considerations – who do you want to take classes, with, learn from, be mentored by… – should be the first thing students are considering. I couldn’t be happier with my time at SBTS in that regard, I was there from 2003-2006. No doubt the other seminaries could have offered a good experience as well, but I think during that time SBTS was in a class by itself. The playing… Read more »
“But the educational experience, especially faculty considerations – who do you want to take classes, with, learn from, be mentored by… – should be the first thing students are considering.” Exactly. They want to go to a place where people are generally like-minded, or at least not hostile to their theology. Most of the SBC seminary experience is going to be similar from school to school. I probably spoke to generally calling the reformed theology the over-arching issue. Location probably is the biggest issue, but it might be worth someone doing a study to ask current students why they chose… Read more »
“The over-arching issue driving enrollment is probably reformed theology … Midwestern or Southern, or Southeastern …”
As Al Mohler would say “Where else are they going to go?”
All the SBC seminaries are excellent. They are all conservative, and they offer much lower costs than do Dallas Theological Seminary and Trinity Evangelical Divinity School. When I was young (started MDiv in 1972), there were significant theological differences between the seminaries. At that time Southern and Southeastern were liberal, while Southwestern was conservative. Now, all the seminaries are conservative. The writer above is correct. Southern Seminary is Calvinistic in its bent, while SWBTS is not. Mid-America, where I teach now is smaller than the six convention owned seminaries. Mid-America offers lower costs, and it continues to emphasize personal evangelism.… Read more »
Arlington Baptist College(founded by J Frank Norris, offers Bachelors, Masters, and soon will offer a D. Min, in ministry or theological education. They are an accredited institution here in DFW and also is a competitor to SWBTS. It’s a conservative school, but not quite as much as they once were. They have invited me to preach in chapel twice within the past ten years, and I haven’t been invited to SWBTS in over ten years. Arlington Baptist is where one of the Caner brothers landed after he left Liberty. My point is, SWBTS competition is incredible compared to other Southern… Read more »
There is also a school called B.H. Carroll in Irving. I saw a friend post that they have recently received accreditation. So there is another competitor in the area.
BH Carroll was just approved for full ATS accreditation, moving from candidate status to full-member. So that completes their accreditation goals–Texas approval, ABHE, and ATS.
They compete, somewhat, with SWBTS but their distance-learning structure puts them in a somewhat different student market.
I went to Arlington Baptist College in the early 90’s. It has improved considerably since then.
William, I asked this once before but I can not tell by looking at the Book of Reports, does the FTE enrollment include the undergraduate students and the women’s program the Dorothy Patterson heard at SWBTS? Do we subsidize those programs with our CP funds the way we do the M. Div. students and other basic degrees? It should be noted that it was not just during the Hemphill presidency that the enrollment at SWBTS was higher and students came there because of its theologically conservative reputation. That was true during the Naylor and Dilday eras also. I encouraged a… Read more »
I don’t know, Ron.
“the women’s program that Dorothy Patterson heads at SWBTS.”
Dwight, As negative as you are about SWBTS, it is no surprise that your three preacher boys chose another school. I remember when you made such an issue about the Baptist General Convention of Texas not standing for the inerrancy of the Bible. Now apparently you recommended your ministerial students to not attend a school that endorses biblical inerrancy and he Baptist Faith & Message 2000 (SWBTS); while you apparently are endorsing a school that stands for neither (Truett Seminary). I also find it no surprise that some Charismatic / Pentecostal students choose another school than Southwestern, though I’m sure… Read more »
David B, Our church has two students currently at SWBTS, we pay their tuition, and recently paid for one to go on a missions trip with SWBTS to England later this summer. I dare venture to say, that in addition to paying student tuitions of church members attending SWBTS, we periodically send financial gifts directly t to SWBTS….I’m going to step out on a limb and say, very few predominantly Black churches have given to SWBTS as generously as we have, even since I resigned as a trustee their. I’ve recommended other students to SWBTS who have attended or currently… Read more »
Dr. Bullock is still at BH Carroll.
Dwight,
I referred to you being negative toward Southwestern based on your own comments in this thread. Some of your comments are about competition; some are just negative.
On another point – Disagreeing with you over the biblical issue of speaking in tongues does not even get close to denying the inerrancy of the Bible. Big difference in disagreeing over an interpretation, and inerrancy.
David R. Brumbelow
Ive always thought it sad that the SBC is bot more diverse in leadership positions and at the seminary level.
I am hoping that this years Pastors Conference has awakened several to be conscious of minorities in all positions. Yes, at this stage, it has to be conscious.
The main factor in the SBC’s Cooperative funding formula for the seminaries is FTE. All the seminaries are struggling with a problem. They have more students, but those students are taking fewer courses and paying less tuition. Beyond that, taking fewer courses means the seminary gets less money from the Cooperative Program. That is why the head counts reported by the seminaries are almost double the FTE statistics cited by William. I remember a discussion in a faculty meeting at Southern Seminary in which the faculty discussed how we could encourage the students to take more courses. Of course, one… Read more »
I’d like to know exactly what counts for funding and what doesn’t. Gateway has 102 FTEs that don’t count for funding. NOBTS has 189 that don’t. The online stuff doesn’t count, so I’ve been told.
David B, Factual and comparative observations regarding SWBTS and other theological institutions are not negative, they are truthful and factual. You still haven’t given any evidence to support your false assertion that I spoke negatively about SWBTS. Please be specific in framing in quotes exactly what I’ve written that was negative. Don’t expect u to do that because u can’t, do it with honesty. Ken Hemphill and others have made the observation that u cannot the gift of speaking in tongues and simultaneously hold to the inerrancy of Scripture. I agree with Hemphill and it’s obvious that if I Corinthians… Read more »
Dwight, Frankly, you don’t know what I believe about speaking in tongues. It is different view than most. You said, “Ken Hemphill and others have made the observation that u cannot the gift of speaking in tongues and simultaneously hold to the inerrancy of Scripture.” I don’t know what that sentence means. Again, there is a world of difference between someone disagreeing with you on a certain interpretation of Scripture, and on the other hand denying the truthfulness of Scripture. A few years ago it was common for some to say if you are against beverage alcohol, you do not… Read more »
Maybe I am misunderstanding the stats.
GS has 490 students (FTEs) but was able to award 341 graduate degrees in a year? That seems pretty impressive.
It would be impressive but the 341 degrees includes 104 graduate degrees (69, 3-year MDivs plus 35 M.Ths). The remaining 237 degrees are “M.A. and other 2-year” basic degrees. The 237 in that category is more than any of the other five seminaries. I assume this is mostly their post-high school program and that most of the degrees are two year. I’m not clear on the M.A. degree (I suppose it is a grad program) but the school doesn’t have many enrolled in that program anyway. Someone else can explain it more fully. I’m not all that familiar with Gateway.… Read more »
David B,
Ken Hemphill said you cannot the validity of the biblical gift of speaking in tongues and hold to inerrancy.
Labeling my comments “negative” is simply not being truthful.
David B,
Somehow I left the word “deny” out of the Hemphill paraphrase/quote. He said u cannot deny the validity of the biblical gift of speaking in tongues and hold to inerrancy simultaneously.
Maybe the FTE method is now antiquated?
Seems to me thats plausible
To say one who denies the validity of a private prayer language based upon biblical exegesis is the same way the homosexual misinterpret Romans 1 is offensive.
Greg,
The hermeneutical approach is the same is the point. They deny what’s written to conclude that Romans 1 is not addressing consensual homosexuality. The cessationist denies what’s written in 1 Corinthians 14: 2 and conclude that a believer praying in tongues in private has no biblical basis. The commonality is denial of the written infallible, inerranct Word of God to arrive at a conclusion not supported by a plain reading of the text. Why sir, would that be offensive?
Dr. McKissic, Ist Corinthians 14:2 says: For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. That verse is not saying anything about a private prayer language. In context: Pursue love, yet desire earnestly spiritual gifts, but especially that you may prophesy. 2 For one who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God; for no one understands, but in his spirit he speaks mysteries. 3 But one who prophesies speaks to men for edification and exhortation and consolation. 4… Read more »
Parsonmike, There are those who’ve argued that only in a witnessing or evangelistic context can tongues be legitimately used. There are those who’ve argued there is no legitimate biblical basis for praying in tongues in private. I Corinthians 14: 2 makes it clear that one gifted by the Holy Spirit can pray to God in tongues and God understands that person. According to a Lifeway Poll on the topic released in 2007, 51% of Southern Baptists believed what I just stated is biblically validated; praying/praising/thanksgiving/interceding in tongues to God is currently possible and sometimes happens in the life if the… Read more »
Probably best to respect Dwight’s statement about moving on. We can re-argue speaking in tongues in another batch of posts. Which we’ve done before and I’m certain we’ll do again. His point is well-made, though he and I disagree on tongues (for example): one tends to recommend seminaries that track with your own beliefs and practices and experiences. So, seeing a seminary explicitly deny a belief that you hold and your church upbringing has reinforced would lead one to consider other options. Especially when it is on an issue that is open-ended as tongues tends to be–why would a preacher… Read more »
I don’t think SWBTS or DTS downplays spiritual gifts ,they just don’t emphasize any particular ones. No one will every see a line form to receive the gift of helps or mercy. Peace to all and Thank the Lord for the freedoms we have .
I think the SBC seminaries would increase their enrollment if they lessened, or removed the extra fees that online students have to pay. I think an Internet Registration fee of $300 is absurdly expensive. I think this encourages students to consider schools like Liberty, Luther Rice and MABTS.
Doug,
Got it.
God bless.
From speaking with professors and administrators at our Southern Baptist seminaries, the consensus is that Liberty University’s huge online program has a negative effect on seminary enrollments. The exception to this is Southern Seminary. Its emphasis on Calvinism attracts students who favor that theology. Southern Baptists can be proud of all their seminaries, including Mid-America. They all provide excellent theological education. They are all conservative now. They all have fine faculties and great facilities. Someone suggested changing the formula for dividing the Cooperative Program money. That is probably overdue, but it will be quite difficult. Any change would benefit some… Read more »
It has always puzzled me that the SBC officially (though indirectly) promotes the independent Liberty who sucks up considerable numbers of SBC students who likely would have chosen one of the six or mabts.