I asked a question on Alan Cross’ excellent post of a couple of days ago – whether the current statistical malaise of the SBC was unique to us, or whether it more of a general problem in evangelicalism as a whole. I got my answer today from an expert on such issues, and it was one that I didn’t like.
The SBC has a real problem. Evangelicalism as a whole in America is fairly stable, even growing (though defining that term is pretty difficult). Other evangelical denominations are seeing growth. The SBC is at the beginning of a real, significant and scary statistical decline. If this trend is not reversed, and reversed soon, the SBC in 25 years will be nothing like it is today.
I have some perspectives on this, but I certainly don’t think I have all the answers. Leaders far more knowledgeable and insightful than I have weighed in on this and will continue to do so, but I would like to share my thoughts.
If the SBC is going to thrive in the next generation, here are some things that I think must take place.
1) We must sharpen and hold on to a robust Baptist theology.
When a store wants to increase its customer based, it has a sale and lowers the price on its goods. We can never put the gospel on sale, nor can we sacrifice our Baptist theology in a foolish attempt to appeal to a broader base.
Statistics clearly bear this out. Once, nearly 1/4 of Americans identified with a mainline denomination. Now, that percentage is well under 10 percent. They compromised on the gospel and the hard teachings of the Word of God in an effort not to offend. But by doing so, they cut the heart and soul out of Christianity and tried to market and empty and meaningless faith.
Baptists do not want to go down that road. We must maintain an unwavering trust in the absolute truthfulness of God’s Word, must proclaim the gospel of Jesus Christ as the only hope for lost and hell-deserving sinners, and hold on to the precious, eternal truths that comprise the core of Baptist theology.
2) We must unite.
I know, join hands and sing a chorus of kumbaya, right? But I am convinced that one of two things must happen in the SBC. Either we must unite around a core of doctrine (primarily the BF&M) and agree to partner together for missions and ministry in spite of our differences, or we must divide into splinter groups and form several smaller denominations.
Since I’ve been involved in blogging, we have been through several significant wars – some bloodier than others. The first war was the Reform battle. That had nothing to do with Calvinist theology, but a lot of bloggers who thought that the powers-that-be in the convention had too much top-down power. The trigger for this was the IMB policies over which so much internet ink has been spilled. The blogging movement was the quintessential grassroots movement that radically changed the way we did business in the SBC. Then there was the “Big Tent Battle” – how much were we going to widen or narrow the (here was the famous term) the “parameters of fellowship.” The Baptist Identity movement tried to draw a tighter line around Baptist theology and practice than many others were willing to accept. Then, as a by-product of that battle, we had the Baptist Culture wars. How much of traditional Baptist culture should we maintain today and how much should change.
Then, of course, came the granddaddy of them all, the big Kahuna of blogging battles – the Calvinism Wars. This is the most serious of them all because it is rooted in theology and involves key issues such as the nature and character of God. It is a significant issue, but it ought not be a divisive issue. I will say it again – what I have said before to the offense of some:
Those who divide over Calvinism have either a problem with theological priorities or with attitude.
The most passionate Calvinist and Traditionalist have a firm basis for both fellowship and ministry partnership, as long as they keep the spiritual needs of the world, the glory of God and the power of the gospel central in their work together.
Nothing destroys the work of God like division and strife – they are works of the flesh, not of the Spirit.
3) Abandon the Blame Game
Whose fault is this current situation? Several who opposed the CR take great delight in laying all of our current troubles at the foot of conservatives. If only we had not fought the Battle for the Bible, we would be prospering as we once did. More than one person has charged the Calvinists with guilt in these troubles. A few of the more strident and angry Calvinists blame the Traditionalists and the general non-Reformed and compromised state of Southern Baptists.
What do all of these have in common? My side is innocent and the problem is caused by “them.” It’s their fault. It is easy to look at the problems of the SBC and blame the people that we oppose in our blogging battles.
It is also petty and small; it accomplishes nothing. It is much more important that we seek solutions rather than to assign blame. Politicians do that, men of God do not.
4) Distinguish the Cultural from the Biblical
The SBC thrived in the 50s and 60s at least partially because it was perfectly contextualized for contemporary Southern culture. We dressed like people dressed, worshiped in a way that was comfortably appropriate and fit it well. There was a specific Southern Baptist culture that we all knew and understood.
Then the world changed. Dramatically. Radically. What we believed marked “the American Way” in my youth has been turned on its head in this new millennium. Perversion has been normalized. Tolerance of sin is now seen as a high moral value. Believing that Jesus’ shed blood is the only path to heaven is now seen as arrogance and intolerance. This is not my father’s America. It’s really not even my America any more.
And the Southern Baptist culture of the 50s an 60s may not work well everywhere in this new world. What we need to do is dig through all the cultural trappings of Baptist Christianity and figure out exactly what is eternal, what is the unchanging message and work of the church. We must be willing, where it is necessary, to change our cultural packaging to bring the eternal truths of Christ to a generation that does not speak the same language that the America I grew up in did.
We may not have Training Union any more, but we can still disciple believers. We can do evangelism even if we do not hold two-week evangelistic crusades as we did in the sixties. We can preach the gospel and solid biblical truth even if the preacher is not dressed in a dark suit with a white shirt and a narrow tie. The organization and culture of the church can change without the nature and purpose of the church changing! That is our need. We must find a way to connect the same eternal truths with a new world, a new culture, a new language.
5) We must walk daily in the fullness of the Spirit.
The disciples of Christ were the ecclesiological Keystone Cops, even after three years walking and talking with Jesus. They never understood even the simplest teachings of Jesus. At Jesus’ moment of great need, they cut and ran. But then one day, everything changed. They did not get a theological education or a new strategy or program. It was simple – they were filled with the Holy Spirit. The Spirit who empowered them to powerful ministry dwells in us. We need not seek his coming, but we must obey the command to be constantly filled with the Spirit.
A car cannot run long without gasoline. A Christian cannot do significant ministry without the power of the Holy Spirit within. I am afraid we have attempted too much in the flesh what can only be done in the power of the Holy Spirit.
6) Non-Sacrificial Christianity has not worked and will not work.
Ed Stetzer just preached at the Pastors Conference and gave some discouraging statistics about the SBC. But, he also held out the hope that if we will be the salt and light we are alled to be, we can reverse the 50 year trend of decline that he showed us. God is not dead.
One thing Ed said stuck with me. He said that we have tried, in modern American Christianity, the non-sacrificial brand of Christianity. It has not worked. It will never work.
We are called not to a life of success, but a life of death – buried with Christ then raised to walk a new life in him! We cannot continue to keep 97.5% of our money for ourselves, keep 94% of the church’s money for church expenses, only giving what we don’t need, and expect to dent the darkness. It will take sacrificing our time, our money, our efforts even our lives.
Anything short of that is an imitation of Christianity.
There are some real disturbing trends in Baptist life. We must face them head on and deal with them. But we must also not despair. God is alive and powerful. The Word is still true. Jesus still saves. The Spirit still empowers and the church is still the Bride of Christ. There is hope, even in this present darkness.
Okay, I’m on board with all six of the imperatives, even the one about “robust Baptist theology,” as long as we are clear about not confusing our common denominational parameters for ministry cooperation with fellowship/unity in the Body of Christ.
But I am curious about who this “expert” you speak of is, and what is the evidence he/she gives to suggest there is no general evangelical malaise in the USA.
“Ed Stetzer just preached at the Pastors Conference and gave some discouraging statistics about the SBC. But, he also held out the hope that if we will be the salt and light we are alled to be, we can reverse the 50 year trend of decline that he showed us. God is not dead.”
Likely, it was Ed. But perhaps it was someone else. I had seen the 50 year trend before. The “Big Momentum” seems to be in force.
I would be curious to know which Evangelical groups are seeing increases in baptisms–especially increases in member-to-baptism ratio.
Specifically, he mentioned Assemblies and Nazarenes.
two groups highly involved in conservative secular politics.
And evangelicals as a whole. Don’t know the exact definition of that group.
I just Googled AOG statistics, and found out they had a 2.3% increase in water baptisms from 2010 to 2011, and a 2.2% increase from 2009 to 2010. Those seem to be the most recent statistics they have up.
I looked up the Nazarenes, and it is more complicated to figure out, as they combine statistics from all over the world. I did find out that from 2011 to 2012 they had a 1.66% decrease in total membership in the US and Canada, though.
Of course, the broad term evangelical could include some Joel Osteen type groups.
Dave,
I haven’t seen you at the SBC, yet. Maybe tomorrow.
BTW, I’ll be the big fella with a good lookin’ woman on my arm. 🙂
David
Volfan,
You don’t want to see me? My feelings are hurt. My wife & I came & registered tonight. We also heard great music at the PC13 & a great message by Mike Huckabee. Hope to see you tomorrow.
Dwight
I’m guessing that the decline has a lot to do with a lot of older, Baptists in the South dying out…the ones, who were saved in the 1940’s, 50’s, and 60’s. Those were banner years of growth for the SBC, and many Churches in the South grew fast and reached a lot of people with the Gospel. Even some of the Churches, which I know about, which are “growing” Churches…are really growing by gaining other Church’s, disgruntled members…they’re not really winning lost people by the droves…most of the growth is from other Churches. But now, that crowd is starting to be homebound and dying. And, the younger generation is not reached with the Gospel very easily….they just dont seem to be very open to the Gospel….And, I dont care if you’ve got a Pastor, who has a goattee and doesnt tuck his shirt in, and a jammin’ band to lead the praise and worship….the younger generation just doesnt seem to be very interested in spiritual matters.
My youngest son is in college…he tells me about all the young people, who are drinking alcohol, and committing sexual sins, even the ones, who grew up in Church; and who may occasionally attend a jammin’ Church now…..a lot of the younger crowd seems to want to just party like there’s no tomorrow.
On the other hand, thank God for the faithful few, young people, that I know….and, how they faithfully live for the Lord.
SECONDLY, I would say that we’re dealing with a real, heart problem in the Churches, today. A lot of Church members are not willing to be committed to serving….to witnessing…or, to even attending. The whole idea of being a sacrificing Christian is not getting thru to the people….and, maybe it’s because they dont wanna hear it. Because, I feel like many, many Believers have left their first love…their love for Jesus has grown cold…it’s a real heart problem.
We need revival in our SB CHurches…and in other Churches, as well. And, we truly need an awakening to sweep over the land.
David
Vol,
I am in almost total agreement with you. I say “almost” because you and I always disagree on something, so I am sure that there is something in there I am missing. 🙂
Seriously, though, I think that you nailed it. This was the point of my post the other day. I think that there is a really “soft” demographic in the SBC numbers that are about to drop through the floor and that we cannot make up in time to keep it from really affecting us. I am talking about the Senior Adult population in our churches. Their work, service, loyalty, and giving has kept a very large number of our churches going over the past 20 years. This generation is getting older and is dying. They cannot keep churches afloat and they do not have the energy to do ministry the way that they used to. When you have some churches that are 75% or more Senior Adult and you don’t have a deacon under 65, it is going to be really hard to reach people with the gospel unless they are just super energetic. I say this with all due respect – it is just a reality. When I am 80, there is a really good chance I won’t have the energy that I have now at 38.
So, how many of there are there? A third of our numbers? That is my guess. Each year, as they are able to participate less and less, we are going to experience more and more what life is like without them – and it is going to be very difficult. Perhaps we are the only evangelical denomination left that is as highly dependent upon senior adults as we are. Maybe that is why the drop is going to be harder on us.
But, our denominational leaders have seen this coming for years now. They have spoken about it. Frank Page spoke of it a couple of years ago. It is a demographic issue. We need to keep trying to reach senior adults (we saw a 73 and 70 year old couple baptized in our church a few weeks ago). But, we also need to recognize that the SBC left to younger generations will look very different from the SBC that we have known throughout our lives.
Things are about to change rather rapidly, I think. Think about how much has changed since Greensboro in 2006, just 7 years ago.
Alan,
My dad is approaching his 88th birthday this Father’s Day. He was just in the hospital last week for his heart and blood pressure. When I entered his room he had “The Answer” track on his tray table. He constantly asks people if they are 100% for sure they are going to heaven. He takes no prisoners. Everyone that entered his room had to give an account, even the doctor. If your gift is Evangelist, you will never stop till you die. It’s your mission. I love my dad for that.
That is great, Bruce. I am not saying that doesn’t happen. I am speaking in general terms about what happens to the majority of people when they hit 70 or so. Energy levels go down. It
is not a criticism. I pray that I will be like your dad.
Alan,
If you have the gift, there is nothing you can do about it. You will be doing it till you die. My dad is truly an inspiration to me in the area of soul winning. I knew what you were saying. I just needed to share his testimony.
Alan,
I’m so glad that we could agree on something! 🙂
BTW, I saw CB Scott at the SBC….also, I saw Tim Rogers, Peter Lumpkins, Tim Guthrie, Robin Foster, Bob Hadley, Norm Miller, and many others….
David
I think you are on to something here about younger folk. The 18-30 crowd seem to gravitate towards larger churches with “Jammin'” music and all that.
However, the 31-49 crowd, especially the men, seem quite absent from both the large megachurches and the smaller churches.
Perhaps this is anecdotal speaking of course, but I also know of a lot of guys in that age group grew up in church, and got disinterested in the mid -90’s, which also coincided with when the church got more contemporary more rapidly.
I know more than a few fellas in that age group that don’t go to church, but they sure make fun of the way a lot of churches are now, by trying to be hip. I think the Generation X folk that do not attend church are more cynical than both the younger and older generations regarding church.
For all the younger people abandoning church, there are still some, even in sizable numbers, going to larger, more “jammin'” churches. I wonder why there is such a disconnect there. The younger church folk are happy with the hip services and all that, but none of their lost friends, including the ones who abandoned church (even the hip ones) seem terribly impressed with it.
I am fairly sure about one thing though. Someone somewhere is gonna come up with a plan to fix this in churches everywhere, and quite a few churches will try and follow it…and nothing will look dumber in ten years than that plan, whatever it ends up being.
Generation X is the smallest generation. The birth rate was very low in the 1960s and 1970s – in between the baby boom and the millennials.
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0005067.html
One reason we see less Gen X people at church is that there are fewer of them in our culture.
I’m currently reading “Why Men Hate Going to Church” by David Murrow. He posits that church is built for women, not men. Interesting read and some good points, though I wouldn’t say I agree with everything he writes. I’ve thought about the lack of men for some time now. A lot of what we call “worship” is so centered around touchy-feely that men (including myself) just don’t care for it.
(from David’s Psalm 77 )
” . . . When I was in distress,
I sought the Lord;
at night I stretched out untiring hands . . .
. . . I thought about the former days, the years of long ago . . .
. . . . Then I thought, “To this I will appeal:
the years when the Most High stretched out His Right Hand.
I will remember the deeds of the Lord;
yes, I will remember Your miracles of long ago.
I will consider all Your works
and meditate on all Your mighty deeds.”
. . . The waters saw You, God, the waters saw You and writhed;
the very depths were convulsed.
The clouds poured down water, the heavens resounded with thunder;
Your arrows flashed back and forth.
Your thunder was heard in the whirlwind,
Your lightning lit up the world; the earth trembled and quaked.
Your path led through the sea, Your way through the mighty waters,
though Your Footprints were not seen.
You led Your people like a flock
by the hand of Moses and Aaron. “
Accidently posted the below in the wrong thread:
Dave
You will most likely disagree vehemently with me on my response to your post, and I don’t comment regularly as my viewpoint is typically divergent from a vast majority of your posters – but here I go.
First, I think the SBC is having trouble due to its warrior nature since the CR. We have always said that were against the ends justify the means mentality – until a majority in the SBC were for it in the CR. As a result many good conservative people lost jobs or were totally marginalized just because they were not card carrying members of the CR. My frame of reference for the CR is Texas and SWBTS. What I know about what happened there is that when they could not find liberals to get rid of, they got rid of the only two female professors in the school of theology, one history and one Hebrew. These were good conservative ladies and are only a symptom of the overall warrior mentality. Another example is what was done to the school of Counseling. The philosophy that only Biblical Based Counseling would be taught at SWBTS prevailed, the department was decimated, the professors moved on and Southern Baptists lost the only evangelical presence in the world of counseling. SWBTS is now a shadow of what it once was.
Secondly, we are majoring on the minors. One would think that in order to be a conservative SBCer these days, that one must be a strict complementation, an entire cottage industry has arisen around the CBMW. The problem with this is that we are not in the 50s anymore. We who are in the workforce work with and have female bosses, we see women lead countries and are CEOs of fortune 500 companies. Then we walk into church and are led to believe, if not by word, but by action, that women should aspire to live in the 50s and be happy to be told what to do by their husbands. I realize that I am engaging in just a bit of hyperbole, but why would women want to walk into a denomination where they are not treated as equals when they are treated as equals in every other part of society. The problem with the comp issue, is that it is an interpretive issue. Much like the cessation issue there are scriptures and noted conservatives who don’t see the comp/egal issue the same way, arguing the point only drives people away, and away from the SBC.
Thirdly, the 20 something demographic and younger have weird philosophies. The have been raised to be inclusive to an extreme, gay marriage is a ho hum issue to them and to not shack up before marriage makes no sense. They drink and pat themselves on the back for not doing weed. As the father of kids in their 20s and talking to their friends who are Christians I walk away just shaking my head at the lack of what I think are strong morals – and these are kids who were raised “right”! As some of these kids have started to find their way back to church, especially after having their own kids, I see them struggle and start to come back, but that whole inclusiveness thing is very entrenched.
My answer goes back to your brick wall idea, but with a caveat. Lets only worry about the brick wall issues, and I would add believers baptism to the brick wall. Calvinism, Complementarinism, Warrior mentality etc need to go away. The fact is they won’t, people are too invested in their own pet issues. With the 20 somethings, I see some of them who are actually quite idealistic, and once they are given a ministry in the church are very faithful to that ministry, but it is a long difficult road.
I don’t know if the SBC will lose its nostalgia for the 50s, and as long as there are power positions warriors will seek those positions. The SBC lasted a long time and will continue in some form albeit smaller for years to come. Guys like Fred Luter are fantastic, but like the US, we have these bureaucracies underneath them that are almost impossible to overcome once they get started.
“””The philosophy that only Biblical Based Counseling would be taught at SWBTS prevailed, the department was decimated, “””
The idea that non-biblical counseling no longer be supported at a Baptist seminary seems a great improvement to me. Perhaps I’m missing something.
SWBTS for years had a degree that led to state lisence That degree is now gone. It accomplished two purposes, one it provided Christian therapists into a field dominated by secularism and two, was a very popular program at a seminary that is in dire need for students.
You may not see the need, but when our church was devastated by a tragedy, SWBTS sent over a team that was a blessing, several of our people then were referred to Christian counsellors and were able to use insurance to pay.
Eric,
Thankfully we still have a counseling program that leads to state licensure here at NOBTS. I will tell you that our program is exploding with students and has been a blessing to both the campus and to the future of SBC churches. The bad move by the other seminaries is a blessing for ours
Eric. I made no argument against counseling.
My argument is against counseling that is not biblically based, as in your quote.
Also popularity is no case for any approach and may in fact argue against such as biblically warranted
We are perhaps talking around each other. The former program at SWBTS was biblically based but also led to state licensure. Good for NOBTS to take up the mantle, but their gain is coming at the expense of SWBTS
Frank: I have a master’s in Counseling from Liberty. In fact, I was in the first graduating class of their distance learning effort in Jan.1988. The approach used there took into account the 400+ counseling movements and schools then obtaining in the world. The approach also involved eclectic psychotherapy, a metatheoretical approach that sought to find out the problem or problems of the client and then design a therapy program that dealt with his situation.
One of the things that I have learned across the years, and this in spite of the fact that some have abused it, is that all truth is God’s truth. I have come to the realization that the Bible sometimes requires a tremendous amount of knoweledge just in order to begin to understand it. Besides the standard degrees at SEBTS (M.Div.;D.Min.), I also possess an M.A. in American Social and Intellectual History plus 18 hours toward a Ph.D. in Black History, 12 of it from Columbia University where I delivered a lecture in Black History and wrote a propsectus for a doctoral dissertation in the same area. My B.S. Ed., includes 155 semester hours from 6 different institutions. I say all that to say this, the depth of Scripture must be acknowledged and taken into consideration. Its counseling is, of course, superb, but it was designed to deal with mankind over a course of many milleniums. I postulated long ago that the Bible, being inspired by Omniscience, must reflect the depth of wisdom and knowledge commensurate with such cause, the effect following much be reflective of the cause. Years of researches in church history helped me to grasp the reality that the Bible can make a believer to become balanced, flexible, creative, constant, and magnetic, in short, a mature person that is the best subliminal advertisement that God offers to the world. By God’s grace, I am thankful that I have come to realize that we might be on the verge of the most wonderful spiritual blessings the world has ever seen and that, in spite of the fact that forces are at work which control the whole earth and intend to crush biblical Christianity. As the Second Psalm says He that sits in the Heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. There is nothing like a good laugh to clear the air and relieve anxieties. God laughs even while He converts His enemies. Surely, our Lord has asked for the heathen as an inheritance and the uttermost parts of the earth for a possession. Surely, His seed will be mroe numerous than the stars of Heaven and the sand by the seashores, which cannot be numbered for number.
“””I realize that I am engaging in just a bit of hyperbole,”””
More than a bit I would say which weakens your argument which could be a point of discussion. A tone of contempt and judgmentalism comes through that clouds the issues.
I also have kids in their 20’s so I can relate to that part of your post. Of course, not all 20 Somethings fit your profile, especially those raised “right.” But there does seem to be this type of societal pressure impacting reaching this group.
Here’s a sample of why I can’t buy into your argument: “”why would women want to walk into a denomination where they are not treated as equals when they are treated as equals in every other part of society?””
First, you confuse “equal” with “equivalent.” Using your argument you support sending women into combat as a matter of equality, which we now do as a nation. I see that as a tragedy. Should the draft be reinstated, now women will be treated the same as men. It is a devastating blow to the American ideal of family which was a model for the rest of the world.
You also speak of driving people away with Biblical teachings on gender roles. I say, so be it. No tent is big enough for every body.
I do agree with your disdain for a “Warrior” spirit that I think can and has risen it’s head in Baptist battles. But, I am not uncomfortable with a spirit of boldness in taking stands when stands need to be taken. After all, it is the “warriors” in our culture that guard our freedoms. The same is true for spiritual liberties as well.
I also agree with your analysis of why it is so hard to make positive changes in regard to the underlying bureaucracy of an institution. That is the nature of the beast and why “top down” changes such as a Black leader do not immediately translate to grassroots change.
Pretty good assessment of the complimentarian issue which looms large in our SBC future. The force feeding by the CBMW is not working well I fear.
Eric,
I perceive that thou art a prophet. For no man can speaketh the truth you spoke, except God be with him. What then is your solution to the problem that you so rightly & perfectly diagnosed? I can’t think of but one: genuine Holy Spirit wrought conviction that leads to repentance.
What say ye?
Dwight
Dwight
I’m in total agreement with you in everything but that Prophet part…
Eric,
Dr. Jack Gray taught that a “prophet” or “prophecy” as it relates to spiritual gifts is a particular truth for a particular person or people at a particular time. If his definition is correct, your statement was nothing less than prophetic. It was in that sense, that I referred to you as a prophet. You may still disagree with that appellation, but as it relates to what you said, & Dr. Gray’s definition, I stand by my use of the term.
Amen
Dave,
Item 6 comes across more in an individual sense than it does corporately to me. I know we, as individuals, must be sacrificial in our walk. Should our leaders be leading the church into more of a sacrificial walk to provide the example for the individuals? How does the church handle the money? So often, the church lives paycheck to paycheck and calls that living by faith. What message does that send to the laypeople? Prayer is important, too. What night of the week does the church spend 1 to 2 hours praying? How often do we train our members in their personal Spiritual gift? Can the elders or deacons disciple, and do they? Are the Youth being taught similarly? It’s like playtime in many Youth Groups. Does the pastor personally disciple and train his elders and deacons? Am I asking too much?
Sacrifice is truly needed and it will impact each one who sacrifices individually and corporately. Good post.
Dave,
“There is hope, even in this present darkness.” I’ll make a PostMil out of you yet! God bless your time in Houston.
I would like to see a breakdown of how all those members were lost. I know for a fact that our church had around 15 (almost 10% of the church) to non-denom congregations. I know that’s not encouraging to the SBC but it wasn’t a loss to the bride of Christ.
All things considered, I agree with your six principal points. Sacrificial Christianity won’t work. I understand the focus on finances but it is my belief that the church needs to be more sacrificial with their time. Not sacrificing it to “the church” or “to the lost” but to God first. Lets see us dedicate our home time to Christ and we’ll see Him use it for His bride and gospel.
For what it is worth, time seems critical to me. Generally if people are giving time, the money will take care of itself.
Sacrificial Christianity won’t work? I’m guessing you didn’t mean that the way it sounds.
There is no Christianity but sacrificial Christianity
.
Yes you are correct. I meant “non-Sacrificial Christianity”. I remember being distracted while writing that particular sentence. Darn all my cute adorable children.
🙂
Thank you for clarifying. I looked a that in some amazement. Of course, you folks who have your eschatology all messed up have some weird ideas and all…
AMEN
Dave,
Item 3 will eventually solve itself just like the “traditional” and “contemporary” issue did. Someone will just have two (2) services with a pastor that can preach on both topics. Of course, Calvinist will want the early service.
We’ll take whatever service we happen to providentially be allotted.
From an application perspective:
1. Robust Baptist theology: and hold to it, and allow those who wish to get off the train to do so with grace and not recriminations. Further, look at ways to to practically honor their contributions, perhaps a sunsetting participation in seminary discounts and lifetime Guidestone access. This will trim the numbers, but also clarify the numbers.
2. Unite: let us also find a way to determine what markable behaviors indicate that a minister, preacher, leader, or church may choose, in their autonomy, to do that will lead to their departing the unity. Unity goes alongside purity–we desperately need unity, but certain high-profile issues, like lingering racial issues and child abuse scandals, have many of us thinking “I do NOT want to be unified with those who choose wrongly on this.” We need a practical, efficient manner whereby this is addressed. Right now, people dance on the edge of the unity because I do not want to go down with the SBC when we cover/slide one more child abuser.
3.Abandon the blame game: absolutely, with the caveats of #2. We can fix the problem first, and worry about the blame later. If there are obvious blame-issues, then a structure that allows accountability in partnership with autonomy will address it. Then move on.
4. Distinguish cultural from Biblical: like expecting everyone who wants a say in SBC matters to make a pilgrimage rather than sending letters? 🙂 Absolutely–but recognize that there is a spectrum there and allow churches to fit where they are. We see lots of “this old method doesn’t work” blogs and articles from Nashville, but some places those things do work. Our church only gave up Training Union last year because the literature available from Lifeway was appearing to just repeat the same stuff from Sunday School. That was an aspect that still worked here, but the SBC cut it off.
5. Spirit-filled: absolutely. And find some ways to help us build that life in our churches, including and perhaps especially within the leadership. We have a climate of isolation and competition in many ways, and it cuts us off from the interdependence that we need.
6. Sacrificial: yep. Again, one that will look different in different places, but one in which we should all be leading by example and teaching from the Word. I think another side method to teaching that is to fully engage with the history of both Baptists and other believers, especially that pre-date us, and teach biographies. Our tendency to note the failures of our predecessors tends to keep us from seeing the example: “Well, this guy was good, but he drank the occasional beer” so we don’t use his life as an example. Or “This lady was brilliant, but she went off and preached one time, so out she goes…”
Anyway–we have a problem. And until we begin to see that we are the minority in the land and our churches are mission points, not culture holding-pens or even social clubs and civic community groups, we will continue to have a problem.
Dr Patterson made a statement during the discussion with the Calvinism committee just before lunch that was interesting. He shared that we do indeed have challenges as SB. The numbers show a decline. He stated however he did not think that the numbers are as bad as some paint them to be because of the number of churches not reporting through the church profile. I know we have a few on here who have said they do not complete profile.
One minor objection to your post Dave, I will never feel guilty about the church I pastor using money that we have first and foremost to win our community for Christ. Out church gives over 30% to missions around the world. However we would cut that in a heartbeat of we needed to in order to impact out community.
Non reporting is increasing but probably doesn’t account for much of the baptism decline. It makes for a safe explanation, though.
LifeWay research could easily factor in the nonreporting churches.
Dean–last paragraph is a good one. Sometimes, the “We spend too much on our churches and not enough on missions” sounds to me like “there are no other Christians anywhere!”
We need to keep in mind that our churches have been placed where they are by God to reach those areas. There are many, many Christians out there to partner together to reach the rest–spending on local evangelism should not be secondary to spending on world evangelization.
Now, spending on weekly crumpets and jam for the pastor?> That’s another matter.
“Crumpets and jam?” How silly. Biscuits and sausage gravy is another matter…..
Dean, I wonder sometimes if those churches that are keeping 94%+ for themselves are investing that in ministry. Don’t know.
I think that’s a valid question. How much is ministry–which includes appropriate compensation for those who do the work–and how much is fluff?
How much is habit-formed spending, like making 200 paper bulletins when you’re showing announcements on the screen and you know that 50% are thrown away on Sunday AM? How much is paying people to do what could be done by volunteers? Heating the sanctuary an extra 2 degrees or cooling it an extra 2? Being sure to have the latest version of every gadget for sound, A/V, whatever…?
And how much is: providing for competent teaching by funding time to prepare? Providing materials for learning or outreach? Putting Bibles in people’s hands and food in people’s mouths?
Many churches have places that could be trimmed, and if there is no clear ministry use for it in the local zone, it needs to move on rather than luxuriate the local church.
Define “Ministry”.
Item 6. No one is fessing up that they agree with debt free and savings for the church. What is the use of the tithe in your church? Need to save? Need to prepare? Need to think about how to use God’s money for a future project? What say ye?
As you noted, the issue is being discussed by others within the Evangelical family. I encourage others to read the opinion of a fellow Evangelical, Peter Enns. I am not saying I totally agree with Enns, but he is trying to address the broader issue within Evangelicalism.
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/peterenns/2013/06/5-main-challenges-to-staying-christian-and-moving-forward-anyway-part-1/
The decline will become more evident as time passes and as the plans implemented by certain groups back in the middle of the 20th century and even earlier come to fruition. Our only solution will be the theology of the First and Second Great Awakenings and the theology of the launching of the Great Century of Missions or the Modern Missionary Movement. Truth be told, we are afraid of that theology. It seems at times heartless and cold and even cruel, but that is due to our failure to understand the nature of therapeutic paradoxes. Consider the fear of Limited Atonement or Particular Redemption. It seems so constrictive of possibilities and yet the Awakenings and the launching of the Missionary Movement grew out of such. Now, lest it be said that I am simply hijacking this blog to advance my theological position, I want to testify that I attended a church pastored by a Traditionalist who had signed the Traditionalist statement for the past 5 years, I insist therefore that I have another aim. My aim is not to make Calvinists. God forbid! There is nothing worse than a cold dead doctrinalist who has everything cut and dried. Back to the Atonement issue, however. The aim is to consider the possibility that the same doctrine that is feared might take into account every last soul upon the earth for a 1000 generations which could stretch anywhere from 20,000 – 900,000 years, depending on the longevity of human beings. Also this is to add the millions of planets that might be reached during that period with all of the converts from it…a possibility suggested by the Limited Atonement fellow, Dr. John Owen, and even used by Andrew Fuller. The point I want to make is that these truths are not peripheral; they are central. That does not mean they are truths to hammer others over the head; they are invitations of the most intensely and provocative nature. The intellectual character of these teachings are the stuff of the Awakenings and the Mission movement, and they provided the reason to believe that one could find others in the world who would respond to the Gospel. Jonathan Edwards’ Humble Attempt provides us with the prophecies and promises to be pleaded in prayer (and which were pleaded by Carey and others in the prayer meetings which preceded the launching of the Great Missionary movement.
I know someone will take this to mean I am only interested in making converts to so-called calvinism, but consider that such folks can preach on the subject, “Ten Things A Sinner Can Do To Be Saved.” I am not interested in setting aside the Traditionalists or the Arminians or any one. In fact the liberalism of the Baptists in the 18th century was what made possible the union of Separates and Regulars, the employment of educated and uneducated ministers in Gospel service, the launching of missionary effort before even Edwards’ Humble Attempt began to take hold. Just look at A Third Great Awakening by the professor from Baylor who told of a Black minister who went to Africa, a man who came to mock Whitefield only to be converted. Or consider George Lisle the Black man who left with the British from Savannah and founded the first Baptist Church in Jamaica.
Think, brethren, think. We are facing the greatest challenge in history, a growing opposition to the Christian Faith that calls fro the wisest, most subtle, and detailed response. It is this challenge that is going to force us to rethink our positions and arrive at a more biblical basis and understanding of the truths of Holy Scripture and how they related to the sinner. And if the promises of God are to be believed, we are going to win the day, win it honestly, up front, with truth carefully stated and better understood, back by prayer for a visitation the likes of which the world has never seen or expected. It will be 40 years this fall, since I began praying for a Third Great Awakening. The other day I thought I would die before I saw that Day when my prayers will be answered and when the prayers of Spurgeon to the same effect will be answered and, undoubtedly, the prayers of Edwards, Carey, Fuller, Rice, and even John Gill. Not to mention the prayers of all of God’ suffering saints throught the past 2000 years and even before.
I want to go on record as agreeing with this central point in what Dr. Willingham is saying–and I’d like to think both the Traditionalists and the Calvinists agree with it–you can’t outplan nor outwork God. Since Jesus said the rocks would cry out if all of us are silent, then we have to believe he is able to accomplish every aspect of his plan with or without our help.
That he enlists us in his Plan of Salvation is the greatest privilege that any of us can have in this lifetime after being washed in the blood of the Lamb. That we should participate fervently so his call may be as broad and effectual as possible is–might I offer–merely to inhabit his plans with him.
I grew up in a non-Christian family. I was saved in a ‘traditional’ SB church in January of 1996. I surrendered to pastoral ministry later that year in a ‘traditional’ SB church. After a brief stint with Young Life Youth Ministries, I have spent the last 11 years as a youth minister in two SB churches. What I’m finding is not a disinterest in spiritual matters, quite the contrary! What I’m seeing is a disillusionment with modern Christianity. Kids see that their parents’ ‘faith’ only affects their lives for 2-3 hours on Sunday morning. This, to them, isn’t worth their time.
I’m beginning to wonder if the modern Children’s/Youth ministry model is sending a frightening subliminal messaged to parents: “Don’t worry about ‘training your children up in the way that they should go.’ That’s my/our job as the children/youth leader(s). That’s what I’m trained for. That’s what I’m paid for. You’ll do more harm than good.”
I’ve attempted to shift ‘some’ of the focus of the youth ministry I conduct to targeting, empowering and encouraging parents to be the children’s first ‘youth minister’. Who knows how successful this will be. Besides, what do I know? I’m just the goatee/chinstrap/flip-flop/spikey-haired dude that works with the kids. 🙂
Might I offer that your comment is brilliant. We all know you can’t outsource parenting and then we continually look for ways to do it anyway…
We’ve been doing it for nearing 2 centuries. It is called “Letting the government raise my children” or commonly referred to as public school.
That hasn’t worked out very well.
Frank,
I’m not sure that keeping kids in home more is a solution, especially if the home environment is not conducive to making solid spiritual warriors. I am the product of public schooling, however my parents were VERY involved in my education process. While they were not Christians, they did a fine job parenting, just not the BEST job because a lack of faith. I’m not sure if this is the place for a public school/home school debate, so I will refrain from that topic for now. 🙂
Zandy, I appreciate your view and my response was to “outsourcing parenting” in Greg’s post. So I think my response was appropriate as was your response.
But, to continue beyond that would stray afield of the issue at hand. Many elements contribute to the present situation and this is just one component.
God bless.
Zandy, you certainly hit on a component of the problem. This of course is not the only issue in regard to the state of affairs among our youth. It is a big one, however.
As a one-time youth pastor, I see the field ripe for reaching a new generation of young men and women who want to be world-changers. I feel my job is not to quarterback this new came but to provide pass protection for my youth pastor.
He also happens to be the principal of our school and the father of my grand children.
Very dissappointed that Dwight McKissic saw so much right with Erics pov when I saw so much wrong. But back to the original article, it;s very good, but what if….
What if baptisms are down because we’re getting away from easy believism and preaching a gospel that requires more than repeating a prayer. Wouldn’t that be a good thing? What if baptisms were down but true conversions were up?
Of course we don’t know thats the case. But fewer baptisms or “decisions” doesn’t tell us that much.
Clark,
Do you feel comfortable telling us exactly what you see wrong with Eric’s comment thread post?
Dwight