Sometimes I realize how insulated my life has been.
- I was born into the home of a Southern Baptist preacher and missionary. My grandpa (maternal – Dr. Eugene Pratt) was an SBC pastor, professor at SWBTS, and head of evangelism for the Missouri convention until his death in 1965.
- I’ve been attending Southern Baptist churches regularly since 9 months before I was born.
- I attended an SBC college (as liberal as Donald Trump is crazy) and graduated from Southwestern (after a two-year sojourn at Dallas).
- Even whilst I attended a non-denominational seminary I was a member of an SBC church.
- Since I was saved and baptized in February of 1964, I’ve been a member of approximately 10 SBC churches – an unbroken chain of SBC membership.
- I’m SBC born, SBC bred, and when I die, I’ll be SBC dead.
In all of that time and in all of those churches, there has been one guiding principle that has been taken as pretty much a universal dictate – as if it were carried by Moses off the mountain, written on stone by the finger of God.
Pastors do NOT look at the giving records of the church.
In pretty much every SBC church I know, strict rules of confidentiality are observed. The tellers count the money and the financial secretary records the offerings. In our church the financial secretary had experience working for a company like cloud xero, she would count the money in a pool and from that point on no one knows who gave what. thus it is, thus it has always been, and thus it shall always be.
Except it may surprise you as it did me to know that outside of our little enclave strict rules of confidentiality are not universally observed. This is a Southern Baptist tradition that is neither a biblical imperative nor universal. A few years ago I received a magazine (Leadership?) that carried a series of articles debating whether it was better to have pastors review members giving records or not. What shocked me is how many churches both practiced and forcefully advocated for pastoral review of giving records.
I don’t have the article anymore, but a discussion at SEND last week started me thinking about this. I thought it might be an interesting discussion here. As best I can remember, here are the salient points made by those who advocated for pastoral review of giving records.
1. Giving is a spiritual matter. Since it is the pastor’s duty to oversee spiritual affairs of the church, it is reasonable that the pastor would look at giving records.
2. Giving is a key aspect in leadership development and selection. Pastoral review of giving records helps the pastor know which leaders are actually supporting the church faithfully and which are not.
3. Giving is a reflection of other issues. A significant change in giving patterns can indicate significant life change, and give the pastor insight into problems developing in the life of the member.
- If someone suddenly is giving less, they may be upset about something in the church.
- Or perhaps that family is having serious financial problems.
- Or maybe there are relationship issues.
In any event, the change in giving patterns is an indication that there has been something big happen in the person’s life. The pastor can then make contact to see how he can minister to that person.
In the article, the third point was the main point. Changes in giving pattern are a reflection about changes going on in a person’s life and by reviewing the giving records, the pastor can see those things happening early.
This is strictly a theoretical discussion for me. I can only imagine the kind of business meeting we would have when I suggested that we consider allowing me to review all of our giving records. I don’t even particularly want that knowledge. But I remember having two reactions from reading that article:
1. I was shocked that ANYONE actually did it that way; that churches really encouraged their pastors to review giving records.
2. I was shocked that the arguments that they made in favor of pastoral review of giving records made a lot of sense.
What do you think?
I would ask two questions specifically.
1. Are there any of you who actually practice pastoral review of giving records? I’ve never heard of an SBC church in which strict confidentiality was NOT the practice. But there are exceptions to every rule.
2. Do any of the arguments for pastoral review make sense to you?
I’m not a pastor [my name is mike and I go to Parsons Baptist], and I would not care if my pastor and/or elders saw what I give.
They already see my church attendance, my volunteer time, my participation in Sunday School, and so forth. And in each area, I could be more consistent.
The Scripture tells us that our life is naked and open to the God with whom we have to do, and should we not value His, the Lord and King, opinion more than our fellow servants?
Not sure if this is of help but it seems in the early church the people came and placed their offerings at the feet of the apostles (Acts 4:34-35). Peter was also aware of the amount Ananais gave (Acts 5:2, 8). I am not saying that pastors today are apostles and that Acts teaches us a precept. Just find it interesting that church leaders in the early church seem to be aware of the financial details of individual offerings.
“…placed their offerings at the feet of the apostles.”
To augment that, I’ve seen churches where the offering plates aren’t passed, but the container (jar, plate, basket, whatever) for offering is left at the front of the church and people go up and give as they can during the time for giving offerings.
Our church does it that way, Jim. People bring their offerings we do not collect them. That’s an opinion and an preference thing though. Not anything that should be forced onto others as the way to do it. (not that you are suggesting that)
Jack,
The apostles knew lots of things we do not, will not, and cannot know because of their special office.
I would note that Peter also said to Ananias that he did not have to give anything…
Have never practiced viewing giving records , know of no church that does.
The arguments stated in post: (1) Weak argument..what is the practical application (2) When selecting leader you simply ask them. If they are untruthful in the answer then are much bigger problems with that potential leader (3) Oh my, there are so many telling signs that people have issues. If the pastor has to look at the giving records to determine those who do have them perhaps he needs to sell shoes rather than pastor.
Question 1: No
Question 2: No
This idea, quite frankly, is horrifying. Should the pastor monitor the number of minutes each member spends in prayer? How about the number of bible pages read each week? How about how often married couples are intimate?
I think this idea would please very authoritarian pastors. I think those churches with very harsh membership covenants (we all know who they are) would love this idea.
Actually, I think Catholics would love this too.
well said
I don’t think it’s the Pastor’s business what someone gives, it’s not the elders or deacon’s business what someone gives. Only the Treasurer should know what someone gives and he or she should keep it to themselves.
I live in a rural community and talk gets around what particular people give in their churches. Things of this nature shouldn’t be.
There are some things that should be kept private, very private.
My guess is that soon there will be no tax benefit and then no one will need to know how much one give.
If there are no tax issues involved with giving, will we stop keeping records completely?
I can see that you could quickly start an “I’m better at church than you because I give more” group. I have been both a church treasurer and have counted the money (in a rotation). I never knew anything about giving–bad memory, I guess.
“Private, very private” seems to be the sentiment.
But, why?
I can see why it shouldn’t be general knowledge, but why must it be an almost secret?
Is it because here in USA money is so important to all of us?
Mike,
I personally believe that giving is part of worship. Giving is between the Lord and the individual. Those who give more doesn’t mean they worship the Lord more. It could simply mean they had more to give. Remember the little widow woman who only gave two mites? Jesus said she put into the treasury more than all who gave. The little widow gave only a fraction of what the rest gave, but what she gave was worth more than all of what the rest gave.
I think privacy is a good business practice, and we can never go wrong by keeping some things private. There are some folks who would love to see our checking account numbers.
The widows mite story is less about “tithing” and more about abuse of power in that the religious folk required this widow to do such.
If it were about tithing then the 10% standard that is (erroneously IMO) preached as the NT tithe by so many today, needs be raised by 90%! 😉
Tarheel,
You are the one that spoke about tithing, I didn’t. What you said makes no sense.
Jess, others in this thread have conflated the terms giving and tithing. If you were not then OK.
I was just making the statement that if the widow woman’s contribution was the focus and instruction of Jesus’ comments then all who give less than 100% are falling short.
So it’s nearly 10:00 pm and I’m really tired, which means that trying to say anything intelligent here may be really dangerous. Plus, I’m not pastoring yet so I can’t speak from experience.
Instead, I’m thinking about the Old Testament. I’m just thinking out loud here and would appreciate thoughtful responses. These are not necessarily rhetorical questions either.
Were not all the offerings in the OT given in public? Or at least with the priests’ knowledge? If you hold to a mandated 10% tithe carried over from the OT, then why do you not carry over the corporate responsibility of Israel to the church? Is it right to individualize things that had such a corporate reality?
I just thought this needed a little pushback to ensure we’re thinking biblically and as Christians, and not just as privatized, individualistic Americans. From talking with missionaries and folks from other countries, you’ll come to realize that there are other cultures that don’t view money the same way we do. In some countries people freely ask you how much money you make. I’ve often wondered why we don’t do that here. My personal opinion is that it’s because of sinful pride and idolatry in our hearts. We tend to place value on each other depending on how much money we make, and so we don’t want anyone to know how much we make lest we feel inferior to someone making more. If that is the case, then we’d better be extra careful in saying that our giving is just between us and the Lord, because that’s not even a true statement. If it was between you and the Lord then you could just mail God a check. You’re giving to God’s local representation of His universal church. So it’s between you, the Lord, and your brothers. I’m not saying the pastor needs to start watching everybody’s money, but the fact that Peter calls Ananias and Sapphira on the carpet on account of their “giving” – and they wind up dead – might ought to make us tread carefully in this area, especially since the Holy Spirit clearly thought Peter needed to know what these NT church members were giving.
I’ve said more than I intended and I’m sure more than most wanted to hear. I’m calling it a night.
Ananias and Sapphira’s giving record wasn’t private–though they sure wished it had been.
It would have been private but they chose otherwise. How they came to die might be worth some discussion.
Right…Peter said they did not have to give anything but once they lied about it – that’s when they got in trouble.
Interesting discussion. An equally polarizing discussion on church finances is whether the pastor’s salary should be disclosed. Maybe link the two–if the pastor can see what I give, let me see what he makes. Just lobbing it out there…
I served as a business manager at a large (by SBC standards) church and was a member of the pastoral staff (total of 7 pastors). I saw giving records but did not share specific information with my fellow pastors. Nominations for any leadership position were vetted by the pastoral staff, and no one knew why I may have recommended passing on a nominee.
On the other hand, when there were periods of conflict between the senior pastor (church was on it’s 3rd during my tenure when I saw the writing on the wall and left) and certain factions in the body, I knew who was in what faction and what was happening with their giving trends and could prepare financial contingency plans so that when the inevitable happened, we could weather the downturn. Again, none of the other pastors were privy to this information.
Smaller, single pastor church? As a matter of regular practice or to get the pulse of the congregation? No. In the event of a significant drop-off? Might be helpful to identify who’s not on board anymore.
1. No, 2. Not really
Not enough time in a day to care about the “records”. I’m more interested in what the needs are now. When we need money, we just say, we need money….our folks will try to give what they are able to give.
I guess if you have a large edifice that requires a consistent monetary feeding, then you have to have some sort of budget established and an accounting of giving may help determine if that debt can consistently be retired. There is really no need to know more than the currency totals and divide by whatever number (months) required for retiring debt or feeding the edifice.
No question Dave Miller is well insulated in a variety of ways…less so now than formerly, and I commend his movement in this regard.
The pastor shouldn’t check individual giving records. Even if every member tithed, the knowledge of what certain people were giving would prejudice even the most spiritual pastor, and some pastors are less spiritual than others.
Every member should be able to see what the staff earns in compensation, and that without being intimidated or punished for asking.
William,
“The pastor shouldn’t check individual giving records. Even if every member tithed, the knowledge of what certain people were giving would prejudice even the most spiritual pastor, and some pastors are less spiritual than others.”
I agree wholeheartedly with this. No one could convince me otherwise. No matter how spiritual one is Thoughts like “OK that complainers whining has surpassed his giving – I’m shutting him out” would all but certainly enter a pastors thoughts. As would “well what he just said was stupid and a really bad idea but he and his family gives 20% of each weeks offering so I’m letting it slide.” We just don’t need those temptations. Also, like you say not all pastors would even struggle against that temptation and tend toward those thoughts regularly.
It’s an incredibly bad idea, IMO for pastors to see such detailed information.
“Every member should be able to see what the staff earns in compensation, and that without being intimidated or punished for asking.”
Here I might disagree. Maybe. I think it is good and necessary for them to see the general overall package amount as it relates to an expense of the church – Just as the pastor should not know details of a members giving or salary – the pastor also should be afforded a modicum of privacy in his finances as well. This is a tough balance I know – balancing a reasonable modicum of personal privacy for the pastor(s) with the church’s reasonable right to know what expenses are being paid and for what. In multi-staff churches I think it is appropriate to list on public reports the total amount spent on personnel and have the detailed information discussed and known intimately only to the finance team in the church to provide some privacy. Of course, given whatever a church policy might be. perhaps a church member can ask to be privy to a more specific detailing by contacting the appropriate person (treasurer?).
Single pastor churches have little way to provide privacy to the pastor – as there is but one person.
Another matter to consider regarding privacy is the fact that public documents in today’s world become much more public, much quicker than they used to. Today a snapshot with a smart phone can send specific financial information for specific individuals all over the world wide web.
I remember a situation at a church I’ve served in – a report from another church was brought into a business meeting and the “pastors salary line” was touted as proof that our senior pastor was being paid too much. “He’s being paid more than the guy at _____________ church.”
I contend that HIS church had a right to discuss his salary but our church did not! Yet because it was (very intricately) detailed on a public document that was sitting on the desk in the front foyer of their church for *anyone* to pick up there you have it. (I note that as a young part time youth pastor, I stood up and spoke to the inappropriateness of disclosing and disclosing personal information relating to another pastor and the details of another church’s budgeting decisions in OUR business meeting and was quickly silenced by the moderator – chair of deacons – who was actually behind the entire movement, btw.)
*discussing and disclosing
I’m not a pastor and have two things which occur to me.
1) The Baptist Faith & Message state that the believer should give to the Kingdom work Cheerfully, Regularly, Systematically, Proportionally and Liberally. It notably does not say that has to be to the local church, nor does it refer to the tithe.
2) If the pastor has to look at giving records to know what’s going on with the members, something else is wrong.
I agree with both assesment.
I wish the BFM2000 had clearly identified the local church where one is a member as the place to most appropriately give to Kingdom work first….but alas they did not ask me. 😉
As to your second point…you are exactly right. That argument for pastors seeing giving records holds less than no water for me. LOL
Even if you looked at the giving records (which I have never done, and never plan to), you still wouldn’t know who was tithing because you wouldn’t know how much their income was.
Why would one need to know what their income is to determine if they giving as the purpose in their heart – the New Testament way of giving.
You are right though – even if we do look – we still would not know if they are giving with a joyful spirit and as they truly purpose in their heart under the direction of the Holy Spirit.
I’ve got to be honest, I am torn on this issue. I personally do not check the giving of my rank and file members, but I have checked to see if candidates for leadership were regular givers. I personally don’t believe that the tithe is NT, so I don’t try to figure percentages. I have always expected the deacons and the pastoral staff to model giving. Further, I have instructed the Treasurer to open the books to anyone who asks to see my giving level.
John (and Tim)
Asking the financial secretary (or whomever) that question is still step on the slippery slope – is it not? I think it is much more wise to not know any of that information at all. Not to mention (I know I am mentioning 😉 )that the financial person will give you a subjective answer based on their opinion of what it means to be a ‘faithful giver” or they might base it on what you tell them that definition is – which takes us back to the slippery slope, IMO.
We ask our deacon candidates and other leadership verbally if they give verbally – a yes is enough for us. If they say no, we can then talk about it.
No it isn’t. I have never treated any of my members differently on the basis of their giving, but I will not have a deacon or a staff member who is not a regular and generous giver. I’m not asking anything more from them than what I am willing to do myself.
And I don’t ask my financial secretary, I actually look at their giving. There are welcome to look at mine.
Also, what I don’t understand is that everyone agrees that we can trust our financial secretary with that information, but not the pastor? That just does not compute to me.
Respectfully, it does not compute to me that a simple yes or no from your pastoral staff and deacons is not enough and you have to go looking. 😉
If you look you don’t have to ask. 😉
*As a determining factor…
Why do you have to have proof beyond their word? I am not being accusatory – I am just asking.
It may very well be true, and I am sure it is, that you have never treated anyone differently – but has it ever been a temptation? If that deacon who did not rotate back on the board because “did not give generously and faithfully” started complaining loudly about the missions or teen expenditures are saying you would not be tempted to call him out? Not saying you would – but why place yourself in that situation?
Also, what you do with your personal giving records is admirable – telling your treasurer to show anyone what you give – but that is your decision.
What if they give in cash – you would not have any way of knowing and you are left to wrongly assume they do not give.
Our bookkeeper is an employee who is highly ethical and discreet in such matters. Should that cease though – she would be shown the door.
Tarheel,
First brother let me say you are tenacious, and I respect that. No it has never been a temptation for me in any way.
As far as the deacon is concerned, he won’t be one if his giving isn’t in place. We don’t rotate deacons.
Is you pastor highly professional and discreet?
Yes our pastors are highly ethical and discreet – that is why we do not look at people’s giving records. SO we are not placing before ourselves unnecessary temptations to jeopardize that. 🙂
As for being tenacious – I have been so told. 😉
I would at least expect my pastor to be as trustworthy as my financial secretary, just saying. Everyone on here is saying, “Oh NO!!! We cant trust our pastor with that information!! But we can trust our Treasurer with that information.” I’m just saying that’s nonsense,and if that is the case you need another pastor.
That is an excellent point
I’m not saying that the pastor cannot be trusted with the information – and I don’t think anyone else did either.
It could be argued that if you don’t trust your deacons and fellow pastors enough to take them at their word – so to cut to the chase you just go and look without having to bother with asking them – that shows either you have an issue with trusting them or they have an issue in demonstrating their worthy of your trust.
I agree it’s important to know that your deacons and pastors are giving faithfully – I just disagree with the way you go about finding that out – I think asking them is sufficient – I don’t need to go snooping in their records.
Tarheel,
That is essentially what everyone was saying.
Do you trust your children’s workers enough not to have a back ground check on them Tarheel?
There is absolutely nothing wrong with me checking on the giving of a potential deacon or staff member, before I recommend them to the church for consideration.
Following you line of thought we don’t need background checks.
Thanks Dave.
That’s not just apples and oranges – it’s apples and nuclear weapons.
No sir its a valid point.
You’re comparing the word of a pastor/deacon (someone you presumably know well) regarding what the scripture identifies as being something that they “purpose in their heart” – and the screening of children’s workers whom you may or may not know anywhere near as well.
Like I said – apples and Nukes.
I see you have a penchant for hyperbole.
You have a penchant for faulty comparisons.
Background screening is by nature objective – while giving is subject to what one purposes in thier heart under the leadership of the Holy Spirit.
By checking someone’s giving it’s a determining factor in whether or not they stay on staff or become a deacon You run the risk of imposing your subjective opinion as to what they should be giving onto them.
*as a determining factor…
In other words….each should give and do “cheerfully as they purpose in their heart” – but we gotta be careful imposing what we purpose in our heart onto others by disqualifying them for biblical office in the church (or other leadership roles established by the church – SS teacher, etc…) based on them not meeting a standard that WE have purposed in OUR heart.
See what I am saying?
If we are taking an offering to give to Christians in need in other parts of the country everyone will determine what they are to give just as Paul teaches. A person who is a leader at VBC is expected to support the work of the church by contributing regularly and significantly to our work. The standard before the Law was 10%. The standard of the Law is 10%. We ask our leaders to give a tithe. They can refuse leadership positions if this is an issue. I am not comfortable checking figures but do not see it as unethical.
I truly did not mean to imply that I thought it was unethical call – really and truly I’m not implying that at all – I just think it’s not a good idea to place a subjective standard that one holds for themselves regarding giving on to someone else.
Dean can you show me a scripture passage – or even an inference in a scripture passage that requires a 10% tithe in the New Testament?
Heel, I didn’t take it as you were implying it was unethical for a pastor to know what members give. I was just interacting with the entire thread and post.
As for as determining in your own heart is concerned, I reject the notion that Paul’s instructions about a free will offering the saints in Corinth had promised to take up for saints in need in Jerusalem is the standard for storehouse giving.
A tithe was given before the Law was given. It is the standard of the Law and Jesus endorsed the tithe in His dealings with the teachers of Judaism. If a person desires to be a leader at VBC we ask them to tithe.
I find it odd that in a day when accountability is such a big issue that many do not demand accountability in giving.
Good Dean, I’m glad you didn’t understand me to be calling those who seek to know such information unethical – as you know a brother can be misunderstood around here from time to time. 🙂
As for an objective standard for the 10% tithe requirement in the NT – still not seeing it, friend.
Dave,
Leading a Stewardship Ministry affords a different perspective. As I have asked this question of Pastors regularly and have also been asked more than I can remember.
One must remember that a Pastor is human. Having access to the monies given is allowing one of the biggest traps and downfalls in ministry to develop that a Pastor could walk into – playing favorites. A Pastor that knows the giving records will inevitably allow this knowledge to guide his ministry, even and often unaware.
I always recommend the following:
1. NEVER look at giving records
2. You can ask the Financial Support person to tell you if a person gives faithfully if you are considering them for a lay leader role.
3. Pastors need to practice faithfulness in Stewardship and also model this in front of there people. I always place my offering in the plate like everyone else in front of everyone else.
4. The above 3 rules will lead to healthy climate while preventing you the Pastor from walking into a messy trap.
The arguments presented are beyond weak and wreak havoc for a Pastor who would heed their advise!
Good discussion!
1. I think it is wise for a pastor to let someone else handle the processing of giving as much as possible…while realizing in a church plant, or very small situation, there may be no one else to do it. If 20 people are giving money and the pastor is the only church leader of any kind, he has to take the money to the bank.
2. My opinion on #1 is NOT based on the idea that “certain things are private”. I do not believe our money use is something other Christians should be ignorant of. A christian with nothing to hide should have at least SOME brothers or sisters who know his money habits and can help him/her make wise choices. A possible exception to this might be if a wealthy parishioner wants to make an very large anonymous donation to a certain project, he may have very godly reasons for not wanting everyone to know about it.
3. Regarding pastors salaries, I believe the church SHOULD know what each staff member makes, since they are the one’s paying him. A pastor should not have any problem with this. If a church member thinks the pastor is being paid too much, then they will have to explain why they keep voting to approve the budget each year. (btw, I also think we should know what SBC executives make…but that’s a discussion for another day). Transparancy here breeds a culture of trust, where concealing it CAN lead to distrust.
I’ve not read much today, so I don’t know how pastors salaries became the topic, but I’ll tell you what we do.
We balance confidentiality and transparency.
When we vote the budget in December, the pastors’ salaries and other compensation items are posted on the screen (not published) for all who attend the meeting to see. The monthly reports do not have individual salary information. However, any member of the church can go to the church office and ask, and the pastors’ salary information will be shown them.
We do not print that information and leave it laying around for anyone who wanders through the church to see. But it is available to any member of the church.
In the years we’ve done it that way (most of my 10 years here), not a single church member has ever come to the office to ask for the information. They don’t care about it. However, if we hid the info from them, they’d probably care.
While we were in Romania with the IMB, we decided to tithe our salary at our local Romanian Baptist church – BAD IDEA. Not long after we started tithing I made a suggestion to the pastor and at once it was acted upon. A couple of weeks later we made another suggestion which was immediately acted on. We came to realize that the biggest givers (by far) were causing changes in what was happening at that church. We changed churches and escrowed our tithes from then.
I think that is one of the best reasons for me, as a pastor, NOT to know who gives what.
If I know that the McGillicutty family gives big and the Smith family gives next to nothing, would I be tempted to give greater weight to the McG family’s opinions? That would be a character issue, of course, but anyone who thinks I’ve attained perfection doesn’t know me well.
I see the arguments for reviewing giving records and I think they have some merit, but Gerry, you’ve hit the nail on the head here. that’s the best reason I can think of for me NOT to know.
I believe you can make a good argument on both sides of this issue. I do lean, however, toward not checking on the giving records.
It is interesting that giving was often pretty public in the Bible. Jesus saw and reported the widow’s giving.
While seminaries and universities are not churches, I’ll guarantee the presidents know the givers to their institutions; especially the big givers. And you could argue it is for good reason. One of the most important jobs for an institution head is to raise money for their ministry. I’m not in any way criticizing institution leaders for this, just pointing it out. One could even argue this knowledge makes them better leaders.
Also, I suppose I’m in the minority here, once again, but I do believe in tithing.
David R. Brumbelow
Thanks David.
It just drives me crazy that so many on here act as if this is some ethical breach. Every pastor I worked under check the giving of the leaders in the church including the staff members.
The only time I have ever checked is when we were recommending a candidate for Deacon. Or I have occasionally checked the giving of a staff member. Like I said, any one in the church can come look at my giving record.
If church members know, or suspect, that the pastor knows their giving history, it can change their relationship with the pastor. The wife of one of my pastors served as financial secretary. He never knew what members gave, but once a member had reason to suspect , or got a bee in their bonnet about something else, the pastor’s relationship with that member began to crumble. There is no reason to feed suspicion here. Family members do not need to be in sensitive leadership positions.
Dave, good article. Though I haven’t read all the responses, I don’t look for a couple of reasons. First I know that I am weak spiritually speaking and my looking at the records may divert my spiritual attention in a judgmental way. Second, it protects me from anyone accusing me of such a thing. Just a few thoughts. Sorry if it is repetitive.
One other person gave a similar argument and I said I think it is perhaps the best reason NOT to look.
I’d like to think I’m above that kind of favoritism but if I don’t look I won’t have to find out.
No pastor or elder should ever look at the giving records, but only be able to ask IF someone is giving; how much is between them and God.
This should not be done because of tradition, but because we have a clear example in scripture what happens when money and preaching are too intertwined in the book of Micah, specifically in chapter 3.
in the midst of a condemnation of the corrupt prophets and priests in Israel:
This is what the Lord says
concerning the prophets
who lead my people astray,
who proclaim peace
when they have food to sink their teeth into
but declare war against the one
who puts nothing in their mouths. – Micah 3:5 (HCSB)
I don’t want to fall into the temptation that politicians face with their financial supporters (lobbyists). We should keep the pulpit pure and teach/lead everyone to give and serve, but not be the Holy Spirit in their lives.
We run the risk of turning into Mormons and demanding someone’s tax return.
I seem to recall Jesus saying something about giving your alms in secret.
And yet, Jesus praised a women openly and included the amount of her giving in the praise.
David’s premise is a solid one: why is this one sin singled out as beyond the purview of the pastor? There is no clear teaching that suggests that leaders should not know how a person is fulfilling the discipline and duty of giving. Arguments from silence are not convincing.
If we are simply assume someone is giving and praise them for it, then we must assume they are praying, reading their Bible, not visiting prostitutes, etc, etc.
Perhaps the pastor does not need to know who and how much, but some “elder” or “elders” need to know. Not fulfilling one’s financial obligation is as indicative of not growing (or being) in the Lord as a lack of any other discipline.
There is also a practical matter. In a recent situation I discovered that one member was giving over ten percent of the budget–equivalent to about five regular families I learned. He recently retired and moved to another state. It was a disaster financially for our church.
I don’t think anyone can claim to be a “great” follower of Christ if they are not “great” givers to the work of Christ. Perhaps we are squeamish about examining this discipline because it is so easy to measure–all it takes is a little bit of math.
Less than 10%–not even meeting the level of ones living under the Law. That’s says something about a person’s view of grace. Grace allows the Law to be “fulfilled,” not disregarded.
Having said all this, I doubt very seriously if much is going to change in this regard. 20% of the congregation will give 80% of the budget. Pastors will allow those “free-loading on the highway of grace” to stay under the radar. The church program will suffer and many will enter eternity and face the music.
Jack: “Financial Obligation” are not the words I would use to describe New Testament giving.
Lots of people give cash. What then? Do we appoint someone to count the money as it is placed in the plate?
Tithing is a fine principal; it is not a Christian law.
“Lots of people give cash. What then?”
Then it is back to what I said to start with. Ask.
Tarheel
you are correct in every comment. This is not rocket science.
I wonder what the discipline of giving could be called but an “obligation.” Giving isn’t “optional” in the Bible, it is obligatory by command and example.
As far as red herrings like, “what about cash,” I think it misses the point.
As far as “tithing” being a “nice principle,” I think that begs the question: is the O.T. informative of Christian virtue or should we just cut out everything before Matthew.
Certainly, I don’t see how giving less than that required by the Law demonstrates a true understanding of grace. The “proportional” nature of tithing allows everyone to give with the same level of sacrifice. God is fair.
Again, I understand that few subjects create more anxiety among pastors than the issue of knowing that most Christians do not understand grace, as evidenced by their giving. Liberty is not license.
I personally feel uncomfortable teaching by precept or neglect that a person has not financial obligation–duty or whatever you want to call it–to supporting the work of the Kingdom.
There is another aspect to this: how many people are living in bondage and full of guilt because they know they are not supporting the work of the church and the kingdom? I know this, “I’ve never had a generous church member complain about a sermon on giving.”
I know that many years ago before I gave at least a tenth of my income regularly to the church, I felt extremely uneasy when the offering plate was passed.
Informative is not prescriptive, which is why I said it was a fine principle. You are laying a greater burden people than the bible itself does. You cannot reconcile laying a financial obligation on people with 2 Cor. 9:7.
Bill,
I am not a proponent of the tithe, but 2 Corinthians 9 is speaking of a specific benevolence offering. Further, because God commands us to help the poor, and to support pastors/teachers, giving is an obligation.
Galatians 6:6; 1 Corinthians 9:9-14; 1Timothy 5:17-18
John: I take you point. I guess I would say that giving is an expectation. I think it becomes an obligation once we put a minimum figure on it.
I think we have to remember that other than perhaps some food or clothing for evangelists, the NT church had no sense of professional preachers and dedicated buildings. I think most of the giving in the NT was relief of the poor. I’m not saying it is necessarily wrong, but we in this age have essentially recreated the temple system. While I obviously participate in the same system, I’m not entirely convinced that it is superior to the NT model.
Jack: What could you say to a church member whose giving didn’t suit you that you couldn’t say in a sermon or Sunday School class? No one is saying don’t teach about giving. It is your job to proclaim the word, not enforce it.
If you are going to enforce a tithe on people, it seems to me that you are not only going to have to know what they give, but also what they earn. Are you willing to go that far?
Bill/Greg
You are absolutely correct. I am honestly trying to understand the argument against these views but for the life of me I cannot. Perhaps I am missing something but I hear no sound argument to dissuade me from the views you have expressed.
D.L. One good argument against Greg’s post seems to be that it is not Biblical. The texts he mentions says nothing about a godly pastor accepting the God-given responsibility to assist church members in the discipline of giving.
He takes the verses out of context and applies them to another context forming a pretext.
It’s not that I do not see any possible contribution of the texts Greg mentions to the matter at hand. I just don’t see them as having the force of a command stating an eleventh commandment: “The pastor shall never know someone’s giving habits.”
It is like circumstantial evidence in a trial versus direct evidence. Circumstantial evidence may lead to a particular conclusion, but it may not. Such evidence requires interpretation.
Greg simply offers one possible interpretation. I don’t find his conclusions totally convicting.
Jack
I see your point and it has validity. I guess my thinking is that while it is true that there is no 11th commandment that says “he shalt not” there is also no 11th commandment that says “he shalt’. There are no Biblical references to my knowledge that gives the Pastor or elder the responsibility to do this. I can think of some that would say he should not but that is a discussion I must leave for tonight after I get home.
Jack I believe very much in the authority and infallibility of Scripture. However this may be one of those areas that other considerations must be made in determining if this should be done.
One is the autonomy of the local church. Each church must work through this and decide. If a member cannot aide the decision he can surely find a church in which he is more comfortable.
One of the things I have noticed on this and other blogs is we use the term SB a lot…have done that myself. Perhaps we shouldn’t try to change the whole convention or lump everyone together. Let each church decide their polity.
D.L. I think your point on autonomy is well-taken and I have no problem with that. Autonomy allows a blog like this to be informative and helpful without creating any kind of anxiety or fear of reprisal for having a discussion.
In regard to this statement, “””there is also no 11th commandment that says “he shalt’””, I’m sure you would agree: 1) there are many “shalts” in regard to our financial responsibilities, and 2) your statement is an argument from silence, or a negative and you cannot prove a negative.
That said, I think you make a very valid point. I am not sure exactly why I don’t review giving records: 1) it might be out of tradition, or 2) it might be out of fear. I’m afraid the shock of who gives and who doesn’t may be too much for my heart. One heart-attack per lifetime seems sufficient.
Jack
One heart attack is certainly more than enough LOL
Thanks for the discussion.
Even if the pastor does not check the giving records, he probably has a pretty good idea who are the tithers. Although sometimes it is surprising how an unassuming person is giving more than the more vocal “big” giver.
Frankly some pastors and leaders would argue it is good for the pastor to know and cultivate the big givers (without compromising his doctrine and convictions). Why? Those big givers and tithers enable the pastor and church to do things financially they could never do without them.
The 20% who give 80% of the finances enable the church to minister to all, rich and poor, tithers and non-tithers.
They also enable the church to give much more to mission causes.
But woe to you Pharisees! For you tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass by justice and the love of God. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone. -Jesus; Luke 11:42
David R. Brumbelow
My guess is that if I did review my church’s records, I’d be shocked at who gives and who doesn’t. That’s probably another reason NOT to know.
There are good reasons for knowing and good reasons for not knowing, and there’s not really a biblical mandate for either.
What interests me are the spiritual issues:
– Some members may want others to know what they give because they want to be held accountable for their stewardship. That’s a good reason. I would guess it’s a rare motive. Many members don’t want people to know how little they give. So privacy hides them.
– Some members may want others to know how much they give because they want people to know that they deserve to have a leadership position in the church. That actually doesn’t follow logically, but most people make that connection anyway. The thinking is that if people handle their own money well enough to accumulate wealth, then they will handle the church’s assets well. The problem is that not everyone who accumulates wealth is spiritually mature enough to steward a church’s assets to the glory of God. Also, it’s assumed that if someone doesn’t accumulate wealth, then they don’t know enough about finances. There are plenty of people who understand finances just fine, but simply don’t want the hassle of being wealthy and therefore don’t do what they need to in order to accumulate it. One such business owner I know developed a heart for missions. He started giving away most of his earnings, until he realized that he would rather be on the mission field. So he sold everything and now lives on a shoestring budget as a missionary.
– Stewardship is a hidden moral problem in our churches and has been for some time. It’s not a matter of tithing. It’s not a matter of churches meeting budgets. It’s about understanding that everything we have are gifts from the One who has created all things and provides all things. In some way, pastors need to be able to address this issue directly. Western sensibilities regarding financial privacy prevent this.
– But there are plenty of pastors who would be corrupted by the oversight of their parishioner’s giving. What we usually see is corruption among non-church ministers like TV evangelists and “healers”. They don’t have oversight into people’s giving. They just sell snake oil in the form of some kind of intangible “blessing”. But there are pastors who seem to do a little too well, whose churches grow to the point where they can afford to build a small mansion in the better part of town paid for by church members, most of whom couldn’t afford the same house on their own. It’s not right or wrong. It just leaves a bad taste in the mouths of people they are trying to minister to. How do you instruct someone to be content with what God has given them when you don’t have the same financial struggles they do, or at least show that you know how to get by with less?
– The fact is that pastors court those in their congregations who they know have the bigger pockets. If you don’t make them happy enough to stay at your church, then you lose significant contributors to your own salary, and even to church projects and programs that you want to push. You hope that the wealthiest in the church are godly people, but if their not, then you don’t want to step on their toes. It can lead to pulling proverbial punches in the pulpit. That’s a bad direction for ministry. It’s better to have plausible deniability by not knowing who gives what and just having a pretty good idea who not to offend.
“””Stewardship is a hidden moral problem in our churches and has been for some time.””””
Nail head, meet hammer. That’s the crux of the issue.
Dave,
In my opinion giving is between the person and God, not between the person, God and those who may or may not be spiritually mature enough to handle that kind of confidential information. In short I think it is unethical for a pastor to know what anyone gives. In my opinion this is a recent phenomenon in the church and is related to the stress that many churches have making the church budget. When a church must bring in at least 10k a week to meet payroll, mortgage and overhead there is a lot of pressure on a pastor. Also all the members of the church should know what the pastor (s) make from the church. That’s just good accountability.
Thank you,
wilbur
Wilbur made some great points.
I would like to point out that even if you do review giving records, it may not tell you very much.
You would have to know income too.
Lots of people have wide variations in income.
Royalties on oil have been cut in half this year for many.
Lots of people live on commissions or are self-employed.
The largest giver in your church may only be giving 2% of his income.
I have always heard that our giving shows much about our hearts and this seems right to me. Pastors are gifts to a church to protect, lead and feed it and they bear a special accountability for this role. I want my pastors to have all the needed information about me that might help them help me.
I wouldn’t tell me doctor he couldn’t know my weight or bp because it was private! My pastor’s role is more important. I want him to have the facts he needs to rightly evaluate my growth as a Christian. I don’t want to be deceived.
Lynn
I believe that most Christians believe that it is Biblical to give financially to help with the work of the church/the Church. Many still believe that it is Biblical to tithe. Consequently, I believe that most people would agree that it is wrong/sinful not to give financially to help support God’s work. Would there be any other sin that we would not want the pastor to know about???? If the pastor is to shepherd, and he is spiritually mature, then he absolutely should know whether the flock that he has been entrusted with is being faithful in their giving. If they are giving outside the local church, a quick visit or phone call would bring clarity on that matter.
I think one of the pros to Pastoral review would be for accountability, but there are many more cons than pros in my opinion. For the record, I am not a Pastor, nor do I understand the ins and outs of keeping a church up and running. Having said that, I think that a Pastor, knowing the giving status of the members, could possibly be led to view members in a different light, and that could be dangerous. Either favoritism could be shown for those who give the most, or a lack of Pastoral care could be shown to those who do not give a lot…. “The Smiths drive a nice car and have a nice home, but only give 10 bucks a week”. I don’t doubt that the vast majority of Pastors are godly and decent men with a heart for the Lord, but why invite such a temptation into your life?
On the other side of the coin, the member, knowing that their giving is reviewed, could possibly start to give for other reasons than they should be giving. They could do it for praise, or to puff themselves up in the eyes of the Pastor/Elders… this is a huge can of worms that I don’t think should ever be opened! I think that the Holy Spirit will and does lead people to be generous and give cheerfully, and that the ultimate success of any church or ministry lies solely in the hands of God.
Interesting article and discussion. Like the author I’ve been a part of an SBC church since before I was born. I’ve served as a Pastor, IMB Missionary, and for the past 8 years as an Associational Missionary (DOM). I’m sure that is more than most of you care to know about me–but it does give perspective to my response.
I can take or leave the first 2 reasons given for a Pastor knowing how much someone gives. However, the 3rd has merit to a point. Giving patterns are useful indicators of spiritual health. I suggest, and have used, the following system: I ask the Treasurer/Financial Secretary to track quarterly giving by household N= none, O= occasional (the family gave but with no discernible pattern), R= regular (the family is giving with a discernible pattern) . If there is something that seems odd i.e. an obviously middle-class household giving $5 a week the will describe the situation and I might adjust something (in 30 years of Ministry Leadership that has happened 3 times). Overall I am looking to see positive growth in stewardship church-wide. Individually there are leadership positions that the church expects consistent stewardship from i.e. Staff, Deacons, Finance Committee, Sunday School teachers, etc… I ask the first 3 examples if they believe and practice the tithe/proportional giving, and take them at their word,.
If someone’s giving pattern drops it usually means they are struggling financially or they are angry at God, the Church, or the Pastor. Either way it’s the sign of a problem that needs to put the family on a Pastor’s radar–if they aren’t already there. I’ve never thought knowing an amount was particularly useful, but knowing patterns can be.
Both of these are pastoral issues. If the pastor is notified that someone’s giving suddenly stopped or was greatly decreased, he can look for an opportunity to talk with them and find out what’s happening in their life.
As a lay leader, I really believe that pastors should look at giving but not the way the Leadership article suggested. Pastors should ask their business manager for a list of the top 5 to 10 percent of givers. At least annually the Pastor should host a gathering of these givers to thank them for their support of the church and following God’s guidance in their giving.
Why do I say that? Because EVERYONE else is doing it and they are courting your givers and thanking them for what they give!!
Let me share a story. Both my wife and I are professionals as in letters after our last names. One night I was invited to an outing held by a Jewish group in town held at the city’s Art Center. The same night, a national group supporting Christians in the arts held a dinner several blocks away. One of my company’s executives was the host for that event. Being a good corporate wife, my sweetheart went to the arts group fundraiser and I went to the Jewish group’s event in the support of Israel. Both groups welcomed us, shared how critical we as givers are to achievement of the current goals, share the “inside view” of the group’s work and thanked us again for our support. Both used a soft touch in asking for a pledge over the coming year and explained the critical role the the organization plays in their field of their endeavor.
Since the meetings were several blocks away, when my event was over I called my wife and found their meeting was about to experience dessert. Since I hadn’t really had a chance to eat a thing, I was eager to go. I arrived in time to hear the pitch for the Christian arts group. We were asked by the group’s leader, followed by the host, to dig a little deeper this year as the opportunities were huge especially in reaching non-believers in the arts community. Then, our host, the executive, offered to match whatever was pledged at the meeting.
Now let’s compare our church experience. We have attended the same church for just about 30 years now and served in many capacities including deacon. We have never been personally thanked for giving of our treasure. Oh there is the occasional half whispered thanks for what you give or the generic thank you letter in the quarterly statement. But in comparison, really not thanked at all. After all, we don’t know what people give…
I really need to say that we are very thankful for our church and feel deeply loved and cared for. And having grown up in the church I was taught early to be a generous giver and have seen God’s blessings in my life and in the lives of others for being faithful givers. Living below our means and thankful for our well paying jobs allows us to be what are called high capacity givers. Joyfully we give to extend the Lord’s work around the world and mostly through our church.
Now here is the however…. However, not all of your high capacity givers have the same background and have as high priority through the church. We know them. They are at these same events that we are. They are being courted by other ministries and secular organizations as noted above.
Please let me share that most all of these folks are faithful tithers. However, it is very tempting to stretch a little further, dig a little deeper, to those who really want you to help them and present “the business case” for doing so. Plus, “we already give enough to the church.” The truth of the matter is some of these people are double tithers, able to and they do give 20 or 25 percent of their income to God’s work and other causes. (To be clear, that is still a little aspirational in our case… God’s Spirit has been working on that!) But others are offering them opportunities to give that are difficult to overlook and so they give.
Did I forget to mention legacy giving? Look at any Christian ministry and they have a how to give through your will brochure available for you and probably someone to call you if you want. Has your church ever even mentioned this??
Pastors, please do a blind inquiry and find out who your top givers are. You probably already have a fairly good idea already. Not how much any one individual gives, but who is in your top 1, 3, or even 5 percent of givers. Get them together as a group, they probably know each other, possibly even know each other well. A simple barbecue at your house would do. Annually would sufficient.
Tell them thank you. Tell them that three lives were changed and several new families have joined the church because of the recent expansion of the youth ministry they helped fund. Ask them where they see opportunities for ministry expansion. Ask if they could be involved in beginning the ministry opportunity they suggested. Tell them you know they are so busy with work and all but are thankful for the support that allows staff and others to reach the community. Thank them for giving to the church and their heart is here when they have so many other worthy places to give.
Please trust me in this. The high capacity givers I know walk with the Lord, live at His direction, worship and pray, and really wish they could be more involved in the work of the church. They wish they would be more of an insider and less taken for granted. Say Thank You. They really need to hear it from their church! They really need to hear it from you!!
If you hire an accountant, you can be darn sure that accountant would not jeopardize his/her professional ethical obligations of confidentiality. That could absolutely destroy his/her career. No self respecting CPA would even contemplate providing such information.
Even if it’s a volunteer position in a particular church, that person has a duty to retain the privacy of each giver.
Separation of duty is a very important concept.
I do see the value of a pastor knowing the exact amounts people give, BUT I disagree that they should be given access to that private information.
Let’s not kid ourselves, there are devious reasons why a pastor may want to know. And frankly, if I wish my tithe to be anonymous, or held in trust of one individual, that’s my business.
My recommendation is as follows: have your pastor removed from your church, reassigned elsewhere.