Some years ago I watched a nature series entitled Life that depicted the life of, well, life. One of the episodes included never-before-captured footage of a pack of Komodo dragons hunting a water buffalo. The event was unique because no one thought that a reptile would pursue a mammal, but the food situation was so dire that the Komodo dragons went outside of their normal hunting routines.
The hunt started with what seemed like an insignificant bite, but the dragon’s bite was, as the narrator says, “a lethal concoction of bacteria and venom” that eventually took the life of the buffalo. Once the buffalo died, the pack of Komodo dragons, like a haunting clan of flash dancers, emerged from the woods and feasted on the corpse of what was usually the more prominent beast.
The Komodo dragons had flipped the script. No longer were they the prey, but the predator. No longer the cattle, but the butcher. And in terms of the nature of this post, no longer the crucified, but the crucifier.
It reminds me of a modern day parable where one man says to another man, “We should go kill all the abortion doctors!,” to which the other man responds, “So you want to enact the same harm to your enemies that made them your enemies to begin with?”
This is the scene that comes to mind as I watch the continuing saga of Mars Hill Church’s collapse. As many Christians are aware, Mars Hill is a megachurch on the path to closing its doors. This is largely the result of its founder, Mark Driscoll, whom Wikipedia describes as a “controversial pastor.” This, however, is putting it lightly. In recent months a volley of reports have surfaced describing Driscoll’s leadership as, for lack of a better description, psychologically abusive. Driscoll is accused of being more of a tyrant than a pastor, and anyone who crossed him experienced acrimonious consequences. The allegations against Driscoll suggest that he dispassionately sterilized any opposition towards him, and that he did so in exceptionally calumniating ways.
The provocative character that often surfaced on Sunday’s stage, it seems, was only the tip of the iceberg as to what was happening Monday through Saturday. And perhaps even on Sunday afternoons and evenings.
But now that Driscoll has resigned and that Mars Hill is on its way to shutting its doors (along with its multi-site campuses that stretch across 15 cities in five states), proper accountability might finally be taking its course. If Driscoll really was as brutally tyrannical as even half of the reports say that he was, then his resignation was long overdue. Those wronged by Driscoll should be grateful for his resignation, pray for his genuine repentance, and hope that Mars Hill Church could somehow rise from the ashes of this blast to continue ministering to their respective cities.
In many cases, however, this is not what is happening at all. Instead, the cattle has become the butcher, and it’s lunch time.
This of course isn’t the nature of everyone wronged by Driscoll, but social media outlets reveal that there is a large group of people that won’t rest until they see Driscoll and Mars Hill’s head on a platter. It’s not enough that he resigned and that the church is closing its doors. Driscoll needs to feel the same pain he so viciously caused others.
What’s interesting to me is that some who sought to remove Driscoll are mirroring, in their accountability of him, many of the same attitudes that caused him to be removed in the first place. Granted, I cannot pretend to act as if I know what happened behind closed doors, but I do know that in saying things like, “You [Mark Driscoll] are the reason God gave me a middle finger,” as one influential man said, and calling Driscoll and his posse explicit and insulting things, as I’ve seen many others do on social media, isn’t the best way to hold Driscoll accountable.
It’s continuing the unfortunate legacy that he left in the wake of his leadership.
The situation is certainly dire, but we should retain our humanity. Or even better, our Christianity.
If the goal is to dissolve the harmful legacy of Driscoll and Mars Hill Church, then fighting it with the same provocative behavior that caused one to initially want to fight it in the first place isn’t the right way to do it. It’s actually quite the wrong way to do it. And more importantly, the ungodly way to do it.
I can’t imagine Jesus, after walking out of the grave, walking back into Jerusalem and crucifying everyone who desired to hang him on a cross. He instead prayed, while hanging on that cross, for God to forgive them. And what’s more is that he died for those that crucified him.
But Jesus was saying, “Father, forgive them” (Luke 23:34).
Jesus realized that crucifying people for crucifying him would never solve the problem. He needed to fight evil with good, and show the world that there is a better way. A way that resembles the love God has for sinners.
What’s eerie is that, at the time of the writing of this blog, the first slide on Mars Hill’s website is of their final sermon series–perhaps ever–which is/was “Love one another” from 1 John. It’s unfortunate that the series was never completed, because people on all sides of the situation would do well to hear it.
Jared,
Several things came to mind as I read your article.
1. I hear you loud and clear, that we should, as Christ bearers, show that kind of love to our brother Mark.
2. We (his church brothers/sisters) should go to him and hold him accountable for being Christ’s preacher. Not sure that anyone “won him over”. (Matthew 18, first)
3. His responsibility as a servant of Christ,…. is “to be won over”. He may not think that he needs to be won over.
4. Since the congregation is the body, and all parts are as important as all parts, Mark has some growing up to do.
5. His church should continue to reach out and help him,…Matthew 18. Mark may just plug in another way, and call it a day.
Again, I hear your concern. We (Christ’s own) should not give anyone the middle finger, but an open hand to reconciliation. That is the absolute best we can do!
-Chris
“(Matthew 18, first)”
If the reports on several fronts are correct, Matthew 18 discipline was exercised in the proper manner. Driscoll ignored/rejected individual rebuke, the counsel of multiple witnesses, warnings from other ministries (including his own Acts 29 organization) … finally leaving the church no recourse but to deal with him in the end.
Whether you are a fan of Driscoll or not, this whole episode has added to the “I told you so” byword and reproach view of Christians. Hold him accountable? Absolutely. Return him to ministry? Be careful – Alexander the coppersmith has done us much harm. Give him the finger? If you do, four are pointing back at you.
Max, You make an excellent point. Scripture is also clear that leaders are held to an even higher standard of knowing the value of serving, and Matthew 18 could have been easily passed over and Mark brought before the church immediately. There was really no need for this to be protracted at all. I prefer that method for leaders,…of course, that also means that there are other church members and leaders that understand the value of such action.
If the work of the ministry is important to the local church, then these types of matters are not delayed and are dealt with in a very timely manner. It is about God’s work. A man’s reputation is part of the qualification to do God’s work. No wiggle room here…
“An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, not addicted to wine or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money.”
If any SBC man (even seminary trained) does not meet those simple standards, he is not fit to lead the church. Churches put up with way too many unqualified men that are dynamic pulpiteers, yet can’t meet Christ’s standard as revealed through the Apostle Paul to Timothy.
“There was really no need for this to be protracted at all.”
Amen Chris. Leaders in the movement that Driscoll was a part of should have rebuked and corrected him years ago, rather than continuing to give him a platform. I say “was” because I see him reinventing himself and making another run at “ministry” (and new book sales). He was emergent before he became resurgent; he won’t stay submergent long. The Driscollite fan base is already yearning to see and hear him again.
P.S. “Seminary trained” does not necessarily equal calling. Education does not produce one ounce of revelation. Holy Spirit anointing that accompanies a true call of God for ministry qualifies one for that work and causes them to act like ministers of the gospel. As you say “No wiggle room here …”
Boy do I agree with this comment Max.
Yes Max.. you hit the nail on the head. Howard Stern was a great example of how the radio listeners for NBC went for a 2.5 share to 5.9 in a short period of time, simply by provocative language. People follow or join in the following of these provocateurs are just waiting to hear the next spill…. and unfortunately look forward to the wait.
No! Christians should be seeking to show the unbelieving world that we can handle our own issues without resorting to worldly methods of disrespect.
What we need to see is much more of this humility when we are wrong:
http://joyfulexiles.com/2014/11/03/seven-years-later-18-mars-hill-elders-issue-letter-of-confession-to-bent-meyer-paul-petry-and-the-church/
Agreed. Neither middle finger nor free pass. I keep an eye on twitter/blog streams, especially related to this topic. It’s amazing how permissive the Christian public can be when celebrity aggrandizement is in full swing. But let the balance of public opinion shift, and the criticism, cynicism, black humor, and personal hate starts flowing without end. We can’t afford to be animated by the same lower dynamics as seen in the political arena. “The kingdom of God is…righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit” (Rom. 14:17).
http://bareknuckle.org/2014/10/08/holding-onto-christ-when-the-church-goes-haywire/
I have not followed things out there that closely. I heard about all the controversy and such over the years. I assume that the church finally had enough.
I believe there are a lot of people that still attend that church. I suspect there are plenty of people who can become a healthy church, and I wish them well in that effort.
I personally do not know what Mr. Driscoll did or did not do. I hear the reports, but I couldn’t put a timeline together or even give an accurate recount. With one exception.
I have seen the video on Youtube where Mr. Driscoll recounts his claim to a woman he was counseling (her husband may have been there, too, I don’t remember) that God had revealed to him the lustful fantasies that she had for a particular man.
As I watched that video it became very clear to me that there was a major problem.
If my pastor claimed to have such powers or a gift, he would be terminated and possibly placed in counseling.
It was clear to me that Mr. Driscoll was lying or was unstable. I still stand by that assessment.
I have no personal ill will toward Mr. Driscoll. But I do not believe his claims. Until he comes clean on that (which is the only thing that I have personal knowledge of because I actually witnessed it), I cannot see that he should be allowed anywhere near a pulpit, despite his apparent “off the charts” giftedness in other areas, and despite the fact that he is clearly dedicated to Christian orthodoxy.
I have said this on this website before, and drew some disagreement at the time.
But I believe until the Christian community clearly identifies and rebukes such looney behavior, we are likely to get more of it.
I think that doing so would help the church and Mr. Driscoll.
Some ministers make mistakes time and again, some make mistakes all the time, and without exception every last one of make mistakes some of the time (sort of a paraphrase of some teenagers are crazy some of the time, etc.). So it behooves us to be careful about judging too harshly the stupidities of others. Just think about David and his adultery with Bathsheba and then the murder of her husband Uriah the Hittite, and yet Peter calls him “the Patriarch.”(Acts 2:29). This idea of the finger reminds me of the usage of the term “brainfart” in our conservative Southern Baptist State paper in Virginia. That was the first time I had every seen a state paper violate the highest standards of ethics in publications, and this is the first time I have seen such a violation on this blog.
“Middle finger” this is the SBC voice? Sad stuff all around.
As I read the title of this post this question came to mind: isn’t this the same type of “provocative use of language” that started the Big “D” down the road to ruin?
As I read the article, I was offended by the savagery of it! How dare you invoke search images of decadence and massacre as a buffalo being eaten!
Is this SBC voices? We’re obviously on a destructive road.
(Playful stark ended.). 😉
*snark
Lol.
The title was derived from the quote I discussed from the “influential man” in the post, not as a legitimate question intended to be provocative.
That was clear to those who read the post, I think.
Jared Wellman,
Very good post, I happen to agree with you. I just wish things like this wasn’t posted on voices for all to see. I happen to think all church business, except for things that build up, and point to Christ, should be kept private. I have caught myself jumping on the train bound for criticville, and it hurts those around me. That is wrong!
One day we will have to answer for every idle word. I have enough to answer for already without borrowing more idle words. What I hate to happen is for the lost to stumble onto this site and see us going at one another or someone else. I don’t care how we word it, it’s still wrong. Of all of you, I’m the most guilty. I plan to do better each day with the help of the Lord.
All of this post mortem talking about the situation at MH is important. It isn’t about kicking MD while he’s down. It’s about a train wreck that people should have seen coming for years, and trying to figure out if it’s possible to prevent the next celebrity pastor train wreck. You can’t line up example after example of objectionable things (profanity, obsession with sex, misogyny, porno-vision, plagiarism, psychological abuse, etc) and shrug our shoulders and say “well, he preaches the Gospel. I’ve heard Benny Hinn preach the Gospel. Anyone want to give BH a pass? In fact I dare say that BH has not left as great a trail of broken and battered people that MD and the leaders at MH have.
We don’t need to chase MD down the road with tar and feathers, but if we can’t look back over his ministry and say “what the heck were we thinking”, then we are doomed to repeat this again.
Bill Mac:
Those are wise comments.
There has to be some approach other than “piling on” or “ignoring the situation” that is helpful and redemptive.
As you have noted, we often talk about preachers and ministries where we have significant concerns. Seems to me that course should apply here.
While there are always yahoos who make inappropriate abrasive comments, I find it difficult to make Driscoll into a victim. There are many, many victims in all this. He is not among them.
William and Bill: Yep. People are rejoicing that justice is finally being done in the church. I am one who is. And it says a lot that Mark is now residing with Robert Morris, placing himself as a victim.
Mark Driscoll is hardly the victim. He is the perpetrator. If this had been a church member or politician, the cry from those saying MD is a victim would be quoting the “you reap what you sow” passages.
In answer to the question of the post. Yes, I think we should just let Mark go and say farewell.
Debbie
In more ways that one. It is time to stop talking about this. We are doing nothing now other than repeating what has already been said and all the while the world is watching as we demonstrate less that Christian attitudes. It is done. There is nothing more to do that is productive.
Justice is one thing. I fear we are beginning to move toward revenge. Admittedly I speak from a bias. I must constantly guard my heart (and mouth) lest I fall into sin pointing out someone else’s sin. That is a fact and failing in my life. So I suppose that perspective leads me to see things that are not there. However, I do think enough is enough. Lets move on.
DL: This is not about revenge. No one is calling for MD to be harmed in any way. No one is asking for him to give back his severance, go to jail, or be publicly flogged. This (for me) is about ignoring warning signs and giving people displaying egregious behavior a pass because they “preach the Gospel” and/or they happen to fit into our soteriological camp.
DL: Revenge? Hardly. Justice, absolutely. We should be about justice for those who have been harmed by loss of jobs and life as they knew it before MD. This should not happen again or at least if it does, we should stand just as strong against it.
I think it may be harder for ministers to talk about but hopefully this will make ministers rethink how they treat people in their congregation, many who trust them, but not so much now after the Mark Driscoll affair. Hopefully it will make people think what exactly they are putting their faith in and to use their brains a little more.
Debbie: What do you wish to do? Take up the rest of the column berating Driscoll? If you think he was bad, try David and his adultery and murder. Then he turns up in Acts 2:29 as “the patriarch.” Not saying, Mark will. Just warning that we all do not know the end of this thing. Driscoll will pay, and he is paying now. Just think about losing a big church and being raked over the coals in public. I once recommended a friend to a church who turned out to be immoral. Talk about grief; it was so to me. But wait and hear the end. He lost his voice box to cancer. His wife died of cancer, and his son died of cancer. Taking care of folks who do wrong is God’s business. We might legitimately speak in terms of condemnation of his conduct and even of church discipline. Consider Paul and the incestuous fellow in I Cors., and yet in II Cors. he is apparently repentant and to be received back into the church. We really have to let God run His business. D.L. is right. Let us move on and close this thing down.
I agree Bill.
Bill/Debbie
I am not saying you are asking for revenge. I am just saying we have said our piece, now let it go. If we continue it will certainly look more like revenge than justice. It is time to stop.
Debbie,you have a good mind and a lot to say, I have respected that. However, your comparing this situation to the hard working, low profile, low paying, totally dedicated pastors that are the vast majority is somewhat unfair. NO, they can learn nothing from MD. They are not like him in any way. They do not have his ego. They are not dictators. They will never be named this side of heaven.
Debbie, you are correct however about people using their brains. Anyone with a lick of sense could see where this thing was going one year after we heard of MH or MD. That was as obvious as the nose on your face. Any response to me that suggest that hindsight is 20-20, NO. This was obvious folks.
Bill
One more comment. You are fight in what you say it is about. But are you really surprised? However, I have a bias that must be admitted,I have never had any respect for MD from day one.
Dr. Willingham: To be honest with your first question. Yes. I would. It would help the victims a lot if we did. I want Mark Driscoll to know the damage he has done and that I and others are angry. I don’t care if he doesn’t care, I want him to know. I want the victims to know that we care more about what happens to them than we do Mark Driscoll. So a resounding yes to your question.
Think Peter Finch in the movie “Network”.
Debbie, I am not in any way “rejoicing” over this as that would not fit the definition of love in 1Cor. 13.
I do agree with you that MD is anything BUT a victim.
Jack: I love the victims and that would be the very essence of 1 Corinthians 13.
William T
You are absolutely correct.
SO is MH really shutting down. Bellevue still has events coming up this year, and other campuses still seem active online.
Each campus gets to decide whether to continue as an independent church, close up shop, or merge with another church.
what are the numerical sizes of these units
Roughly between one and three hundred million.
Chris
Thanks much..that narrows it down for me 🙂
Once, when Ev. George Whitefield witnessed a man being led away to be executed for a crime, he said, “There but for the grace of God, goes I.” Other noted evangelists have had occasion to say much the same thing, when they have witnessed criminals being led to their execution. The same could be said by any of us. I remember saying to the men who fired me, as they said, “they could find nothing wrong with me,” “Well, gentlemen, we will meet in eternity about this matter.” Now they are all there, two with a year after the firing, a third about 10 years later. The date was Dec. 29. 1996. For a while I was very angry with them, but after kicking a tree (better than engaging in violence with those who had admittedly done me wrong), the tree did not seem to mind, but my foot did. Anyway, I got over it and even began to pray for those fellows. There is a place for anger in the process, but eventually it must be vented in a Christian manner and ameliorated so that one does not continue to poison one’s self with the evil of taking vengeance, an emotion, if not an action, which surely wrecks havoc on one’s nervous system, causing all kinds of problems and pathologies.
Wow, I know that I’m a new kid on the block and a little late on this post, but Wow. I’ve been trying to figure out why the SBC in various parts of the country are a complete mess and maybe I just found out why. I have a really hard time believing that everyone writing has been intimately involved with all the details surrounding the MH / MD situation. Maybe I’m wrong and I hope I am and you are all experts. If you are not then the majority of you should be ashamed of yourselves. All I hear is the pride and self – righteousness poring out of everyone and it is distasteful. It is almost like a world full of pastors and church workers were envious of him and covetous of his ministry and now that it is falling apart and the sent of blood is in the air everyone can’t help but take a bite. Would I have done everything the same way MD did? probably not but that’s the beauty of the body of Christ. every part serves a different purpose. even paul said in
1 Corinthians 9:19-23King James Version (KJV)
19 For though I be free from all men, yet have I made myself servant unto all, that I might gain the more.
20 And unto the Jews I became as a Jew, that I might gain the Jews; to them that are under the law, as under the law, that I might gain them that are under the law;
21 To them that are without law, as without law, (being not without law to God, but under the law to Christ,) that I might gain them that are without law.
22 To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
23 And this I do for the gospel’s sake, that I might be partaker thereof with you.
When was the last time you were weak for the weak, or like those that were with out the law to save those that were with out the law? MD was effective in an age bracket that most churches can’t touch, single men in their 20’s, of course he talked about Sex, he ministered in one of the most sexually perverse cities in the country. and it is not surprise that he was considered a tyrant, he expected men to act like men and if you wouldn’t he would tell you so. The church is full of crybaby men, and crybaby men don’t like being told they are crybaby men. So even if MD did get a couple hundred complaints from his churches I would like you to realize that a couple hundred complaints over the last 20 years from some 20,000 people over the same number of year is probably a much smaller percentage of complainers that you probably have at your churches. I am a pastor at a small church. if you look at the time stamp it is 4:00 in the morning. I run a business and do various things on the side to make enough money to get buy and this is when I get to write my messages. I just wish we would have spend all this time acting like ministers and figuring out ways to help men be men instead of ripping a fellow minister to pieces. Every one of us could probably use a little bit of Driscoll in our ministries.
The whole chest-thumping uber-macho nonsense that MD championed and you seem to have bought into is a big part of why his empire is collapsing. There are certainly wounded sheep as part of this whole sad affair. MD isn’t one of them. He’s walking away a rich man, leaving others to clean up the mess. That isn’t what “real men” do.
Bill,
Yea, that was one of the overboard tactics that brought him much trouble – no disagreement at all there.
Did you have opportunity to listen to the “ask pastor John” link I posted below – I think it’s a very, balanced and wise approach. I wonder your thoughts on it?
Tarheel: I can’t quibble with most of what JP says. He clearly states that MD is not qualified to be an elder. He clearly states that the governance structure that Driscoll set up at Mars Hill was unbiblical. He clearly states that the mega-salaries at Mars Hill indicates that people receiving these salaries (ie: MD) have their hearts in the wrong place. Yes, MD is his friend and he doesn’t back off from that.
I don’t think it is fair to say that people are rejoicing that MD has been hurt.(sure, some are). But when someone is in a position to hurt people, and does use that position to hurt people, then it is not unreasonable to be glad that the person is no longer in that position.
I think it is fair to say that more than some are rejoicing….there is a difference in what you propose “being glad they are no longer in the position because they hurt people in that position” and reveling in his fall….I have never took you to be one as reveling in it – but I do think it is fair to say that there are more than just a few doing so. As I have stated before, I was never boarded the “MD is the best thing since sliced bread train” – I have had and spoken reservations about him and his ministry for years (from a distance of course).
I am pretty sure I have heard JP state that until MD demonstrates repentance and becomes a man of more godly character than he is disqualified, I am not sure it is accurate to assume that JP thinks MD is permanently disqualified from ministry – I personally am not sure MD’s disqualification is permanent and without remedy… I do know this though – These matters can only be addressed by MD from a place outside of ministry – this is why I think he has done the right thing in resigning, backing away and I assume seeking to get right with God and when the time is right his fellow man.
I truly pray that he is restored to ministry – I know for a fact without a shadow of doubt that God is not only in the restoration business – it is his business – and He is awesome at it!
Can you imagine the glory and praise that God will receive when a Christ exalting truly more sanctified, humbled, refocused, and repentant MD returns to ministry after having been so disgraced? What a demonstration of the power of God to take sin wrecked lives and turn those lives into vessels of honor!
The bible certainly speaks of restoration from sin. As far as I can remember, that restoration is back into the local church family. I cannot think of any instance in the NT where a church leader fell and was restored to leadership.
*cough*Peter*cough*
*cough*John Mark*cough*
Peter’s betrayal? I suppose, although I was thinking post-pentecost. Not sure about John Mark. I don’t remember what sin he committed.
I was thinking more about Paul’s rebuke of Peter. Then there was John Mark’s abandonment of Paul which led to a later split between Paul and Nicodemus.
The atheist beat me to it. LOL!
But that aside, just a practical question Bill – are you contending that if I pastor messes up that he is disqualified from ministry? Who would be the determiner of the disqualification? What specific sins or sinful attitudes or character flaws would disqualify a pastor beyond redemption and restoration to ministry upon Genuine repentance?
MD aside, this seems to be a very subjective and honestly rather scary road that you are arguing for if I’m understanding you correctly.
Good comment Chris, but not trying to be nitpicky, it was Barnabas not Nicodemus. But I do agree with your point.
John,
Barnabas, right. Brain slip.
To be honest with you at first I thought that you put that there on purpose to see if people were paying attention. One of the things that drives me crazy, and I am guilty myself, is when people begin responding to comments without carefully reading what someone posted.
No, I’m not saying someone cannot be restored to ministry, just that the biblical case for such a notion is rather thin.
I’m all for MD being restored to normal standards of Christian behavior. I have no desire to see him restored to ministry. I don’t see that as the ultimate test of restoration. Sure, in 2 or 3 years I’d love to see him laboring in relative anonymity in a soup kitchen or running an orphanage in Eastern Europe. That would give me more confidence than seeing him pop up in a high profile conference or leading some type of large organization. Of course if that’s what God wants He certainly doesn’t need my permission.
“I have no desire to see him restored to ministry. Sure, in 2 or 3 years I’d love to see him laboring in relative anonymity in a soup kitchen or running an orphanage in Eastern Europe.”
I’m not sure I can put my finger on why at the moment, but this statement bothers me.
You just don’t like Eastern Europeans! Or soup.
For the record, I would not call Peter’s refusal to eat with the Gentiles or whatever it was that John Mark or Barnabas did “falling”. Peter was rightly rebuked and that appears to have been the end of it. He did not fall from his position of leadership and had no need of restoration as far as I know.
The thing with John Mark and Barnabas seems to have been a difference of opinion on ministry, or personality differences. I don’t think I would characterize either of those things as falling.
But as I say, I don’t think scripture closes the door on ministry after restoration, I just don’t think there’s a solid case that allows it.
Actually Bill,
With all due respect, I do think that the pre Pentecost denial of Christ by Peter would classify as a restoration to ministry after a great fall. Was Peter a believer in Christ? Yes he was. Matthew 16:16 Was he an Apostle of Christ? Yes he was. Matthew 10:2 There was no such office in the OT. He denied Christ, swore an oath that he never knew Him but Christ prophesied that he would be restored. Luke 22:32 And it is obvious that restoration was a restoration of leadership and ministry. Luke 22:32; John 21:15-18
John: I agree that’s the best example the NT offers. There’s no doubt that Peter’s denial was sinful. I would point out that it was done in moments of panic, in fear for his life, and that his repentance was immediate. But nonetheless, the point is valid.
The question is, when a minister falls, is restoration to ministry the gold standard by which we discern such things?
If someone is addicted to pain killers, we judge their recovery by their stopping taking pain killers, not by their ability to go back to pain killers without abusing them.
Success, fame, money, the adulation of the masses, are what (IMO) contributes to the fall of these people. That is why I said I wouldn’t mind seeing MD at a soup kitchen or running an orphanage. That is a restoration to ministry, but without the trappings that, in my opinion, led to his fall in the first place. I would not rejoice to see MD restored to a position of power. He has shown that he is not able to handle it.
Bill Mac,
The light bulb just came on! I can see your point clearly. That comment is awfully hard to disagree with. It probably is one of the most rational and even handed comments concerning MD in this thread.
Bill,
I see your point too – I am just not sure I agree with it- at least not completely.
It seems that you’re saying that there are certain sense that place a person outside of the restorative power of God – when you take things off the table and say that that is something that should not happen never happen again in a persons life then aren’t you limiting God’s redemptive grace?
You have stated that there is scant example in the new testament of a leader falling (in way analogous with MD) and being restored to the leadership – fair enough – but I ask you Are there examples of persons in Christian leadership in the NT that were permanently disqualified because of some specific type of sin? As you’ve conceited there are examples in which Christian leaders sinned and were restored.
All pastors and leaders are sinners – we all fall short of the perfect standard of a pastor – It seems that these particular sins that MD has fallen prey to are some sort of trump sins in your book – sins that override all others and permanently disqualify one from pastoral ministry – like I said I see your point I’m just not sure if I completely agree with it.
*certain sins (not sense)
*as you’ve conceded (not conceited)
Tarheel, yes, there are certain sins, I believe, that disqualify one from certain types of ministry. A child molester should not be restored to children’s ministry, regardless of his/her recovery from that particular sin. Embezzlers shouldn’t be made church treasurer. Likewise abusers of power should not be returned to positions of power. This is as much for their own protection as to protect those they might potentially harm. The bible tells us to flee temptation.
I guess my contention is that it seems you are attempting to force an equivalency between objective and easily disqualifying sins (child molestation, and thievery) with what is a more (largely) subjective “abuse of power” situation.
I am sure that if we took a poll of church members over the years who have sit under the ministries of most (all?) of us there would be some who might identify sinful power seeking, arrogant actions/attitudes (some perceived and some real) in us.
Certainly the days of our youth (mine are) are filled with mistakes, missteps, plain stupid (and sometimes sinful) actions related to pastoral ministry – we were (again hopefully past tense) arrogant in our youth – is this not why Paul spoke of not laying on of hands too hastily, lest we be responsible for their sins – This is why I think Piper is so profound here – he admits he was not a good friend. He admits that he failed Mark. Not just him, but the other elders at his church – the board members – and many others. MD’s sin is his own no doubt – but certainly there are others to blame as well. Are they all disqualified too?
The point is that we all (hopefully) have become more sanctified over time – repented when we needed to, learned from our mistakes and became better ministers for it all…no doubt (not asking for people to fess up) but some pastors , likely even some who post here on voices, have been “forced to resign” or driven to repentence by consequences relating to issues of pride, power seeking behavior in the past – would you say to them they should be automatically and summarily disqualified – or is only “mega church” /”big name” pastors/leaders who behave as jerks that receive such condemnation in your book?
It just bothers me a little that you would, out of hand and permanently disqualify a fellow elder based on your subjective observations from a distance and afford them no pardon, mercy or restoration in pastoral ministry – ever.
Tarheel: People have had no problem judging E. Caner at a distance, because he is a public figure and what they believe to be evidence of his sins are also public. I think the situation is the same for Driscoll. One indiscretion is one thing, but the profanity, explicit visions, plagiarism, collusion to artificially inflate book sales, unbiblical restructuring of Mars Hill to consolidate power, and uber-machoism to the point of caricature are all public record. Add to these the numerous accounts of abuse by those under him make this a pretty clear case.
But you are right about one thing. People, a lot of people failed Driscoll. I’ve been saying that much for a long time. We make celebrities, they don’t make themselves. But we never learn.
Bill,
You are right – there are some differences though between EC and MD….EC has never repented, actually acknowledged his sins, MD has. EC has continued in ministry as if he has done nothing wrong and incessantly goes about insisting that those who called him out on his sins are to blame for his own sins, he’s even sued fellow believers to keep information about his sins from being publicly disseminated (the marine video) – MD resigned and is seeking counsel and will need to demonstrate repentance (granted only time will tell the sincerity of that). There are other differences as well….but
I would also hasten to add that while I have been one who has been very vocal on that issue – I have never once intimated that these men should be disqualified permanently from ministry on the basis of the actions for which they have assumed to have genuinely repented. You have.
If EC were to repent as publicly as MD apparently has – then I would consider that a good thing and I’d not mention it again except to praise the Lord for the repentance and restoration demonstrated – unless of course the repentance proves to to be a sham – which is why I keep using words like apparently and seemingly referring to MD’s repentance – only time will tell the tale on that.
(note: I have been quiet for some time about EC and I did not want to bring EC into this discussion , but I wanted to respond to what you said.)
Tarheel: Well, not quite. As I said, I don’t think MD is permanently disqualified from ministry. The soup kitchen and orphanage comment was meant to be mildly humorous, but with a point. I think it is fine for MD to become a minister again. I think it would be a great mistake for him to become a celebrity again and to occupy a position of power such as the one he just left. Shame on him if he tries to return to that and shame on anyone who enables him to do it. We rejoice when an alcoholic achieves sobriety, but we certainly do not rejoice if they get a job at the liquor store.
Well, it seems the goalposts have moved a smidgeon… 😉
Earlier you were saying, or so it seemed, that you believed him to be disqualified from pastoral ministry (the office of elder) – but now are saying that you are restricting his ban only to that of “celebrity” pastor. Or are you saying that he is thenceforward and forever, in your mind, disqualified from the office of elder?
I personally do not differentiate between an elder at podunk first Baptist and one at Mega Church, USA. The qualifications are the same. If MD is eternally disqualified in your mind for one – then I would think him also disqualified in the other in your line of argument.
I also, wonder that if your argument is that he is “dangerous” and no redeemable in positions of power – why in the world would you suggest he “run an orphanage”? Mentioned jestfully or not – I suggest that such a ministry for one that has been deemed so nonredeemable – does not seem to fit your argument.
Well, I said that Piper said he was currently disqualified to be an elder, and I agree. I may have given the impression when we started the conversation that I think he should be permanently disqualified from ministry. If I did, then I don’t anymore. I take your point about running an orphanage. My point was really about laboring in relative obscurity. Perhaps disqualified is the wrong word. I am an elder in my church. I have no power other than over what I preach. I cannot hire or fire, set policy, or decide what color to paint the fellowship room. I have one vote, just like anyone else. I don’t even moderate the business meetings. I think that is the proper amount of power than an elder should have. So yes, I could foresee a time when MD is qualified to be an elder. But I do not foresee a time that MD should be in a position of power or celebrity. He has not proven himself faithful in those areas. I think there is a distinction.
Try David’s adultery and murder routine. He did repent, but he was King, prophet, Patriarch, and even did a priestly thing by taking the showbread to feed his hungry men. Forgiveness is with the Lord that He might be feared, and David’s sufferings for the rest of his life were miserable to say the least. He paid as he called for in response to the fellow who took the poor man’s one little ewe lamb, namely, fourfold. E.J. Daniels published by sermon on the text in his Christ For the World Messenger sometime in the fall of 1964, I think, and it bears the title, “Pay Day – Today.” A take off on Dr. Lee’s sermon, Pay Day Someday, but far removed in quality from his coverage of the subject. He, however, dealt with the sinner who will pay someday. I dealt with the believer who sins; he pays today. I dare say no one knows the agonies Driscoll is going through now and in the future.
Granted the one who paid the most for David’s sin was his son who had nothing to do with it, struck dead by God in an act of divine justice.
Chris R.,
I am pretty certain there are blogs and forums that might suit your new-found belief (disbelief, unbelief, whatever) system better than SBC voices.
Just sayin’
As a potential going away present I offer you this presentation of “atheist worship songs”.
http://randombutawesome.com/atheist-mega-church-worship-songs/
Tarheel,
Did my statement somehow fail to faithfully and biblically reflect one of the consequences of David’s sin? Why are you uncomfortable with me pointing it out?
I agree with T.M.!
i am saddened by the fall of Mark Driscoll. not because i personally was touched by him or his message. I am saddened for two reasons:
one, because the man, whether you like him or not, did expand the kingdom of God on earth! why would we as fellow soldiers want to gloat in the demise or failure of one of Gods children. is MD not worthy of the same love and redemption given to every other sinner? if he is not, then why? because he swore? because he exhibited an imperfect character?
He who is without sin should cast the first stone!
i should hope that none of us desire to be treated with the same contempt should we ever find ourselves in need of forgiveness.
Second i am saddened because rather than pray for the restoration of such a man many gloat in his time of difficulty.
it is shameful that so many presumed men of God would treat another with anything less than the mercy peace and love we were shown by our savior Jesus Christ. please pray for MD and for all those that were affected by this spiritual tragedy. there are victims here, there are lost sheep, and wounded souls. shouldn’t they find a bit of comfort within the body of Christ.
there is enough bloodshed already we need not continue shanking the wounded sheep (MD included)
Good comments TM, and JE.
I came across this the other day – and I think it speaks nicely the feelings that I have regarding this entire issue. I encourage everyone to listen to the whole thing – it’s really good.
https://soundcloud.com/askpastorjohn/do-you-regret-partnering-with-mark-driscoll-episode-472
Thanks Tarheel, That was very good, especially his “things we can learn” points.
GO DUKE!!!
Why you hatin’? Andy?!
😉