Those who take the Bible as the authoritative, inerrant Word of God are caught between a rock and a hard place:
The Rock:
Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him. Proverbs 13:24
Folly is bound up in the heart of a child, but the rod of discipline drives it far from him. Proverbs 22:15
Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die. If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol. Proverbs 23:13-14
The rod and reproof give wisdom, but a child left to himself brings shame to his mother. Proverbs 29:15
And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?
“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
6 For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”7 It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. 11 For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. Hebrews 12:5-11
There is little doubt to those who read the Bible that physical discipline is not only permitted, but expected in the raising of children. One who spares the rod “hates” his son. It is through the consistent, loving use of physical discipline that folly, which is bound up in the human heart, is “driven far from him.” By consistent discipline, we can keep a child from embracing folly and “bring(ing) shame to his mother.”
There isn’t much doubt about the biblical evidence here.
The Hard Place:
That is pretty clear as well. Our world is increasingly viewing physical discipline as abusive. Educational and child-rearing experts who do not embrace the authority of God’s word make little distinction between a simple spanking and an abusive “whooping.” To them it is all the same. Put your hands on a child in discipline and you are an abuser.
So, here we are. We believe that the Bible is God’ perfect world and we live in a world in which the teaching of the Word is viewed as heinous abuse. What are we to do?
Reflections:
I can say I am very glad I’m not raising children today. I’m raising grandchildren and my job is to spoil them, not discipline them! I don’t think I can solve all the issues, but I will make some reflections and assertions.
1) Child raising techniques and strategies reflect our theological anthropology.
Do you believe children are naturally good and innocent, and will grow into wonderful adults if we simply don’t get in the way? Then spanking is definitely verboten. Do you believe the Bible? It presents children as not only born in sin but in folly – the tendency to choose the wrong things and wander into the wrong paths. If you believe the Bible, then your role as a father or mother (especially, in the Bible, as a father!) is to drive folly out of your child’s life in an environment of unconditional love and consistent, firm discipline.
I loved (still do) my four children. But I also realized that there was an enemy dwelling in them that would destroy them if I did not do battle against it. If one of my children had cancer, I would have gone all out with every treatment I could find, even if it made the child sick for a time, to see that they got better My children, every wonderful one of them, had a spiritual cancer inside – sinandfollyoma. It was my duty, as a father, to go to battle against that sin and folly that was bound up in my children’s hearts and defeat it.
Theology determines child-rearing strategy.
2) Discipline must be love.
The key to discipline is that it always must be performed for the good of the child. I shouldn’t discipline my children to work out my frustrations or to vent my anger. I only discipline my children for their own good.
3) Discipline has a purpose.
What is the purpose of physical discipline? Proverbs tells us, in general, that life is choices and choices have consequences. Everything we do is designed to attach a sense of consequence to bad choices. Children are naturally wayward – they wander into trouble without considering the consequences of their actions. Discipline is designed to attach negative consequences to bad choices, to help them learn to make the right choices.
My precious 11-month-old granddaughter loves to roll around on the couch. We sit beside her because she has a tendency to dive off the couch for no apparent reason. We catch her to keep her from hurting herself. She’s not a year old yet, so that is necessary. But I’ve seen parents of 13-year-olds doing the same thing. Instead of helping their children to understand that choices have consequences, they shield their children from responsibility. I can remember my dad telling me, when I was headed for school (back in the dark ages, when teachers still used corporal punishment) that I should know that if I “got it” at school I would get it again when I got home. He believed in consequences.
I believe that spanking is primarily useful to attach a painful consequence to a bad decision.
When my oldest boys were 3 and 1 (both were near their birthdays to be 4 and 2) they took our car out for a spin in our neighborhood. Matt got the keys and had figured out how to start the car (he has a post-grad degree from MIT – that kind of thing was his speciality). Matt fired the car up and sent his brother Josh down to the floorboard to work the pedals. They headed out down the hill onto the highway (from then on, every time I saw a logging truck roll by, my knees got a little weak) and turned to the left. They drove down the road a ways (we lived in a parsonage), across the church yard and parking lot and stopped by a tree. By then, some guys from the car lot across the street who saw what was happening had run across the street and took the keys. Matt was mad because he intended to try to park the car to get away with his misdeed.
My two sweet little rays of light did something that threatened both of their lives. This was no small thing. So, I tried to help them remember that driving the car before your 4th and 2nd birthdays is a bad idea. I attached a painful consequence to a bad choice.
Discipline is designed primarily to help children see that life is choices and choices have consequences.
4) Spanking has an expiration date.
When you come to the point at which you can reason with your children and use other forms of consequence-attachment, spanking becomes unnecessary. I don’t think I ever spanked any of my kids after the age of about 6 and seldom by that age. When you consistently and lovingly discipline your children in the toddler years, you have a great head start.
5) Spanking CAN be abuse.
If you spank your children in anger, to work out the frustrations of a long day, it can be abuse. If you take a branch and hit your child 13 or 14 times, that is probably abuse. You don’t need to torture your child, just give them a little bit of physical pain to remember a consequence. If your child has welts and marks a couple of days later, you have a problem. If you spank out of anger, you have a problem.
6) God is smarter than the experts.
I am sometimes amazed at the idiocy that “experts” can recommend. The same educational experts who brought us Common Core math tell us spanking is abuse and it is unnecessary.
Pretty much everything the Bible teaches about home, family, marriage, morality and child-rearing is disdained in the secular world and increasingly even within the Christian world. Some Christians have an insatiable desire to be accepted by popular culture, even if it means compromising what the Word of God teaches. We have to believe that God’s Word is wiser than human expertise. It is!
7) Show some wisdom!
In this world when hostile and over-eager DHS agents are doing foolish things and looking for reasons to intervene in the lives of people who do not share their values. It’s probably best not to spank in public. It is a private matter and is best to be kept there.
There is so much more to say here, but I’ve got grass that needs to be mowed and things to do. I know this is a controversial topic, but are we going to listen to God’s Word or not? Are we going to assume that modern sociological and psychiatric experts have a greater insight into the human condition than the authors of the inspired scriptures?
I’m glad my kids are grown. DHS can’t come visit my home!
Great perspective, Dave. You hit all the salient points. Loved the story of your sons stealing a car. That has to be some kind of record: grand theft auto before the age of five!
I also like your point on “Spanking having an expiration date.” I think that is a very needed element in the discussion.
And, grandparenting is much easier–and you don’t lose as much sleep!
True story that displays my naivete and stupidity.
I was teaching on what the Bible says about spanking and I decided I wanted a photo or graphic for my powerpoint.
Let me speak from experience when I tell you that googling “spanking” is not really a very good idea!!
Googling can get you to some interesting “illustrations.”
The rod mentioned in Psalm 23 brings comfort, and is referring to how the shepherd guides his sheep. The rod is used to protect them, sheep are stupid. Children are ignorant as well, and do not know what is expected from them until we tell them. They need to know right from wrong, we need to communicate with them what their boundaries are. Sure they will test the limits, but as parents we cannot give in when it is not appropriate, but when their safety, our beliefs, values, or morals are compromised it is most often due to the lack of instruction given by the parents–and we need to stand firm on the foundation that we have been taught by God’s word. The boundaries are there to protect. The word of God gives us boundaries and they are for our protection. The spanking is along the lines of corporal punishment and that is not what I believe is represented in the Scriptures with the interpretation of the rod, I believe it is a symbol that represents gently leading the young child, as the shepherd guides his sheep, as also used as a metaphor in the NT that Jesus is our shepherd and we are his sheep.
Emily,… those are excellent points. I would also say that the rod (staff) is used to discipline and not only guide sheep. That does not mean to harm them, but to keep them in line. The entire concept must be kept in mind, although I do believe if we bring up our children in the way they should go… the return will be with less of the more harsh discipline applied, …where the gentle nudging works very well. Of course my sheep (one girl, and one boy) where quite different in their approach to sinning. One took a little more of a nudge.
Emily, I understand that rod can be used metaphorically, but in Proverbs it seems to be pretty literal. Look at Proverbs 23:13-14.
Dave,
First of all great article, Dave! I like your points…and agree with the principles you are conveying. I especially liked the balance of your article…too often in our culture, even in the church, we hear “spanking is never abuse” or “spanking is always abuse”. When the fact is, spanking is not necessarily abuse – but it can be. Whenever I hear a parent say “I have never spanked my child”…I tend to bite my tongue because my immediate thought most often when I hear that is “you do not have to tell me that, its patently obvious.”
Secondly, the story with the car is a great one. One which I am familiar with, as my younger brother and I did the same thing with our Dad’s car!
We were a little older though…I was about 5 or 6 and he was 3 or 4. Yea, Dad believed strongly in convening meetings with the board of education when necessary (and not the one that meets at city/town hall either) and we got the message loud and painfully clear!
I think that the “aging out” of spanking varies with the child. I, for example, stopped responding to spanking around age 8 and the discipline that worked best for me was isolation. Used to be called grounding…and back then it meant all the gadgets (the few I had) were taken from my room and that is where I stayed for a period of time. Only to come out for meals and the occasional bathroom break. It meant that no socialization took place on the phone, or in the yard, or after school…it was straight to my room immediately after school. That was very effective as I am a social animal.
My little brother did not respond to ‘grounding’…he would take it as an opportunity to be alone (what he enjoyed) but a good butt whopin often got his attention…even up to almost teen years.
So our parents tended to cater the discipline to each of us as we needed it….that is not to say that my little brother never got grounded – or that I never got spanked …but typically the discipline administered was based on what “got our attention” to, like you said above, “attach a consequence to our bad decision.”
When I spanked my son I used my hand…no other “weapons” were necessary. He was typically crying before I even touched him – he knew he had disappointed his parents, and even at a young age understood that dishonoring his parents was sinful toward God and that really got his attention. Before ever spanking him, he has to explain to me why this is necessary…yes, he explained that to me….”I did this…” or “I did that…” then I would remind him that he made a choice that was wrong and why and that I, because I love him, need to physically correct his course. Once I spanked him, I would hold him as he cried and when he was ready I would talk to him about how much Daddy loves him and wants the best for him and how what happened is now all behind us.
Part of this form of discipline is, IMO, not only demonstrating the disciplining hand of his father, but also demonstrating the love of his father too…as one without the other is a recipe for disaster. Plus, the way I discipline him is teaching him about God…and God is both disciplining and loving.
On a more jestful note – I have also found in wrestling with my son, that I can “hit” him twice as hard as I ever have while spanking him and he is laughing and coming back for more.
Spanking is clean, immediate, and demonstrates a clear message…. timeout is abusive, takes too long, and communicates all kinds of messages. God is right in this matter!
I think the problem in the country you mentioned and now being portrayed in the American society, centers around the definition. Spanking is somehow equated to child abuse,….when timeout fits the bill much better.
We need to help our society understand “why” timeout is abusive, and how”spanking” is a much better option to not spoiling a child.
I am not sure I agree with you on that Chris. Care to explain why grounding is abusive?
Time Out/grounding/whatever is a tool in the discipline tool kit but it should not be used as a substitute for spanking. Nor should spanking be the only form of discipline that we administer.
Any form of discipline can be abusive.
I think we all can agree thought that not disciplining at all is abusive – now that is something that we really need to teach our culture!
I don’t want to get too misunderstood on how timeout is abusive. But, just the thought of waiting to feel how guilty I should be… seems to be abusive to me.
I would rather gently bring the child into line with a gentle nudge of the staff (as Emily has explained) or if a little more application of the rod is needed, apply it quickly. This is a loving act, followed by a loving embrace, and the kid skips off to play… without a load of guilt (stooped in the corner). Because he/she knows what the problem is, and that Daddy loves them…so off they go into the dirt again.
Just to be clear…meant to convey that the child would be feeling guilty as he/she stews in timeout, not the parent. I quick correction and then back to playtime without a load of guilt is a much better remedy.
If a child is in “time-out” I want to be right there with them, doing a bit more explaining. But, being left alone to stew and create a guilt situation, when none should be created, is abusive.
SO glad God didn’t use Time out… like maybe sending his people off to some foreign country for years on end…
😉
You were moving along so impressively using theological anthropology, verboten and then you drop “sinandfollyoma” on us.
I was pretty proud of that one, actually.
In a parenting conference for adoptive parents, foster parents, and social workers I stated the following:
“If you do not know the difference between a spanking and a beating, you are not fit to be a parent or a social worker.”
Parents loved my training session. Social workers went nuts.
Excellent article Dave. Thanks.
Hope your son’s faith was able to withstand MIT’s assault on biblical Christianity.
I want to point out that there are two testaments, the old and the new. We have two different pictures, the Law and Grace. Under the Law there was physical punishment as means of discipline. Today we are to discipline according to Grace.
I’m so glad God doesn’t come down and slap, kick, stomp, or even strike us with an object. The reason God doesn’t treat us this way is that, my friend we are under grace. A preacher cannot even be ordained if he is a striker, according to Paul’s letter to Timothy. We are to discipline by the word of God. Eph. 6:4, Do not provoke your children to wrath. Matt. 18:6, do not offend one of these little ones. Remember the woman caught in adultery and thrown on the ground before Jesus. Jesus said neither do I condemn thee. Jesus done away with physical punishment. Heb. 12:6-7, Whom the Lord loves he corrects, notice he didn’t say beat, slap, or kick.
My friend there are other ways to discipline children instead of inflicting physical pain on a child. It takes love, compassion, perseverance, patience, did I mention patience. Does striking a child help anything? No it doesn’t. We are to teach a child grace in the ways of God. If you men are not smart enough or patient enough to teach a child the ways of God I would be ashamed.
I have worked in the juvenile justice system a lot of years. We received kids that have been whipped all their lives, some had religious parents. I’m here to tell you striking doesn’t help one bit. We should be ashamed when we don’t please our Heavenly father, children should be raised in a way they should be ashamed if they don’t please us. Children shouldn’t have to fear physical punishment and the physical pain it causes them. Children shouldn’t have to live in fear of a parent.
I submit to you there are other ways to discipline children besides striking. Use the brain God gave you and teach your children. I will pray for all you that have to strike your child to get your point across.
The Hebrews passage is in the New Testament.
And your theology of the relationship of the Old and New TEstaments is one you might want to rethink. Christ did not come to destroy or nullify the Law (OT) but to fulfill it.
NT teachings do not magically nullify the wisdom of the OT.
Dave,
Teaching a child knowledge so he can gain wisdom is the object. We are not under the Law but we are under Grace. We are no longer under the Law according to scripture.
We cannot be hitting children, the only thing that does is that it might make us feel better. The object is to gain the trust and love of that child. The child should want to please a parent because of the love and respect he has for his parents, Not fear his parents.
My son played basket ball through grade school and high school. He loved basketball better than life itself. It only took one time grounding him from a practice, and explaining to him what he had done wrong to get my point across. I didn’t have to strike him to teach him.
We are under Grace not the letter of the Law.
Jess, getting a very young child’s attention with a “rod” that is going the wrong way, or being disobedient ….that tap on the butt is not a Law, it is Grace. As a loving Heavenly Father, God demonstrates that same Grace to me everyday by nudging me in different directions, and even at times He taps me pretty hard on the butt to get my attention. Has God never held you away from “running headlong into trouble”. That is a wonderful Grace that my Father gives me, and is the meaning of the OT passages. Confusing Grace and Law can be very tenuous.
Chris,
God has nudged me away from things that would harm me. He has never tapped me on the butt, he directs me through the heart.
Jess,…The Apostle was left with a “thorn in the flesh”, an act of Grace from his heavenly Father. God always applies the right amount of pressure to His children, as well as a overflowing amount of care and feeding.
I do agree that some parents go well beyond the required nudging with the rod, and that is sin. Yet, God has instructed His children to trust His Word, and to use wisdom and love as we discipline our children. The nudge to obedience with the rod is effective, immediate, and clear when we truly love our children. No confusion or long term penalties like we see in society today. Its good for children to learn to turn from disobedience quickly, and not be saddled with guilt or bribery.
Jess,
I thought “Striker” meant “brawler” – “fighter” – “physical aggressor in violence”.
I would contend that spanking done properly does not meet that pastoral disqualifier.
Tarheel,
A striker is a striker, whether you hit me on the jaw or on the butt or back or shoulder or face.
I also contend that a striker is a father or mother that habitually inflicts physical pain on a child.
Tarheel,
I also contend there is no proper physical punishment for a child. We can call it spanking if we want. Does it make a child cry? Does it make the skin red? Does it leave the child sore?
Lots of things that are good for children leave them red, and sore and even crying – are you contending they’re all wrong?
Please don’t take this as an anti-corporal punishment comment (I’m not), but I raise sheep. I’ve never seen anyone hit a sheep with a stick. Also, sheep aren’t dumb.
Bill Mac,
I have a few sheep too. I have never hit them, and they are certainly smart little rascals.
Bill and Jess,
smart rascals those sheep but are they sinners?
do they do morally wrong?
Mike,
When my ram nearly broke my hip I felt he was doing something morally wrong. Lol
Jess,
sure seemed like it, sure felt like it, lol
You folks missed it all the way around. You should have been raised by folks born the in the 1800s (like 1888 and 1882) as my maternal grandparents were. Their view was a no nonsense applying the rod, and Grandpa was especially good at it. He even overdone it at least once (not to say that I didn’t deserve a rather strong reminder of the rules that time…I hit my sister, a no-no in anyone’s language, one fraught with real consequences, like in my case, three switches and a belt, but then Grandma stepped in and stopped the belt). In any case, Grandpa took three of his grandsons who were in serious trouble with the law in St. Louis and brought them to the farm in Arkansas for about a year each. When they returned to the city, they never got in trouble with the law again. And believe you me, I never got in trouble with the law the first time. In my courses for the M.A. in Counseling the Professors, Dr. Ron Hawkins and others pointed out that the rod in the discipline of a child was not the rod that breaks the arm, but the keen little switch. However, I suspect that if necessary God would not be adverse to breaking a sheep’s leg, if kept on wandering away. After all, He does use the term scourge in Hebs.12, the same word is used for what they did to our Lord. Not that I advocate such in every instance, etc. I had a great uncle once who started in on a teacher back in the early 20th century. He had a knife, and the teacher grabbed a poker from the coal/wood stove and knocked him unconscious which lasted for several weeks. No one argued with the teacher in those days and not even when I was growing up, perhaps 40 years later. My children once laughed, when my wife, a small woman, administered a few swats with a flyswatter for their misbehavior. They laughed as she went down the hall until she turned around and came back. To hear them tell it now: she cleaned house. She now has the reputation of child abuser (their laughing assessment today some 35 years later), They seemed to have forgotten my discipline although I am sure they have not.
The sad tragedy is that, lacking discipline, the whole of our society is beginning to decline so precipitously that it is like we have plunged off a cliff. Just consider the gang issues in practically every part of our nation today. In the fifties, I moved to St. Louis and had four invitations to join, but my raising killed that idea deader than a door nail. Besides by age 13 one was treated as an adult in those days, if not by the law and even that institution did so at times.
Our present situation leaves the student from age 12-20 in a state of confusion, something I learned at Liberty in that M.A. Program. Students are expected to act like a child in some cases and like an adult in others, definitely a recipe for confusion, identity crisis, etc. But when you are treated like an adult, you act like one. My mother said she never worried about me (I can think of only two occasions when she might have had cause to worry), because I did what I said and always let her known if there were changes in my plans.
James,
Believe me brother, I didn’t miss anything.
James,
In Hebrews 12, it is a spiritual scourge, because the Lord don’t come down with a leather whip and beat us.
A scourge can be anything in the hands of the Lord. In any case, we are talking of an instrument of correction and discipline, especially if sin is involved and to be avoided and ended. Sometimes it takes real pain to teach avoidance. God’s preferred style, I would think, is like ours (I hope ours is such), a loving hint and reminder or even clear instructions spelled out.
Tarheel,
I think we are talking about physical punishment, aren’t we?
No. We’re not talking punishment at all- we’re talking about discipline.
Maybe that is the root of our disagreement you’re looking at spanking as punishment, vengeance and retribution…those motives are always wrong and likely will lead to abuse – actually no matter the tactic employed.
I and others are talking about loving discipline, chastening if you will.
Perhaps you’re conflating the motives and therefore coming away with a misunderstanding of the action?
Bravo Tarheel, So many people don’t get the difference between punishment and discipline or correction. I don’t punish my children, I correct them.
John Wylie,
If you spank your children you are not disciplining or correcting them. In fact you are punishing them.
You and John have hit (may be too harsh) the nail on the head. A huge distinction between the two,…and very indicative of the OT intent.
Tarheel,
The N.T. doesn’t teach what you are calling spanking, tender loving touches. Get real, the only reason parents lay hands on a child is because they don’t know of a another way to handle things. Tarheel, it’s barbaric to treat a child in this manner. Hitting doesn’t solve anything. Gentle taps, is why so many children get put in the hospital.
Why tap a child physically when they can be taught in other ways. We need to use our heads and think. The problem is that we have been taught by man so long that doing things God’s way is new to us and we don’t want to give up the Old Testament way.
Jess, I can’t take you anymore, grab your ankles!
Seriously, you have a right to your opinion on the nature of spanking/abuse etc. but to insult those you disagree with is not loving and kind.
When you say things like, “the only thing that does is that it might make us feel better” about spanking children, that is insulting.
I NEVER felt better spanking a child. I helped raise three girls. Rarely spanked. Used it carefully and judiciously. Sometimes the spankings barely made contact. If I was very angry I wouldn’t spank at all.
Don’t label people with motives you can’t possibly know.
Clark,
There is just no reason to ever spank, we should be teaching, this is true correction.
“The N.T. doesn’t teach what you are calling spanking, tender loving touches. Get real, the only reason parents lay hands on a child is because they don’t know of a another way to handle things. Tarheel, it’s barbaric to treat a child in this manner.”
Let’s just be real clear, Jess. You are calling the God of the OT (of course He is the same God in the NT) “barbaric.” You may want to rethink the statement quoted above.
I agree, Tarheel. Discipline and correction might involve pain, but it is not the pain of rejection and destruction. However, God can take us away from this world in order to stop our sins…as in Paul’s saying, “you have not grieved that he might be taken from among you.” That is a free hand quote, not one of exactitude.
Don’t you guys remember the prodigal son who wasted everything? When he returned home he was met with hugs and kisses, a robe and a fatted calf. Not a I told you so, not a spanking, not mean looks, but he was met with love. Shouldn’t children deserve the same respect?
He had already had his long term spanking.. He was glad to be home! Why would a Father punish a child for returning in obedience,…we should celebrate. In fact we need more celebrations, more often! Maybe I am missing your point?
Chris Johnson,
That is the point, why would the father punish him?
There you go again—-none if us are talking about spanking for punishment.
Good grief Jess,… this son was full grown and it was God that showed him grace by allowing him to hunger. His Father was busy teaching the other brother what repentance looked like.
The brother that got the pig treatment probably long for a little “rod” action in his younger days, when he was dining with the swine.
Chris,
True, but the same point applies.
I do not think we can say that the prodigal son returned home obediently. . . He returned home because he ran out of options. He stated that it would be better to be at home, than to remain as he was. This is not necessarily obedience.
I challenge all you preachers to read Second Timothy 3:16, In this particular verse I hope you see the word correction. This type of correction is how you are suppose to discipline your children. Never is a hand or object.
I used to believe the way you guys do, but it just doesn’t accomplish anything. I remember like it was yesterday when my youngest daughter was three years old. We had a coal heater in the living room, several times I gave her a tap on the butt and told her that the heater was hot and it would make a boo boo. One day she finally touched the heater with her finger. She cried in pain. Those taps didn’t do nothing to keep her from touching the heater. I wish I spent more time teaching her what I meant by being hot.
Spanking is a last resort in my home. That’s why it’s so rarely used.
I would not spank my child for wanting to touch a coal stove – for example. Basically, I only spank (the “ultimate” discipline) for ultimate offenses.
My son knows that if a spanking is incurred that he has really messed up. If I use it too often it not only becomes potentially abisive but completely ineffective. I don’t “tap”. – if he’s deserved a spanking he’s gonna feel it. I don’t do in anger (For ensuring that – I have a minimum of 10 minute (sometimes longer) cool off period before spanking – my wife holds me to that), I don’t do it to get even or show him who is boss – I do it because I love him and his decision has been grave enough to deserve the ultimate discipline tactic I have in my “parental tool kit.”
I also understand what Daddy meant by “it hurts me differently than it hurts him.”
Not more, but differently!
Tarheel,
What I did was not a spanking, it was just very light taps with the hand just to get her attention. To me when a child endangers themselves that is the ultimate. Nothing else comes close. My little girl thought it was funny. It wasn’t so funny when she burned her little finger. It didn’t like much being a third degree burn.
Jess, again… I think you may be conflated a whole bunch of other stuff into this simple exercise of how Dean Stewart has well said… is God’s wisdom, and that we should learn from.
“Thy rod and thy staff” is truly a comfort when administered properly. Maybe there should be more Shepherd training….on the use of such in the effective way that God has instructed.
Chris,
You are misinterpreting what Thy rod and thy staff are used for is Psalms. David was the sheep, the Heavenly Father was the shepherd. They were not used to strike the sheep.
Jess…That’s that reason I put it in quotes…. the metaphor worked well for the Psalmist to convey the message. There are other passages that do not use the metaphor, yet the message is still one of comfort in both locations. Correct me if I’m wrong, but from what you have written so far on this subject… you may not look upon discipline, guiding without your consent, pulling you back out of danger, etc. as a comfort from the Heavenly Father.
Jess, your argument is not with us, it is with Solomon and God. You equate Proverbs to the Law. I have to believe you know this is not case. Proverbs is wisdom literature. It is not full of laws and decrees; it is full of wisdom from the wisest man that ever lived writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. When someone says, “As the door turneth upon its hinges, so doth the slothful upon his bed,” would you reply that is law and it doesn’t apply anymore? You discount the Word of God’s teaching in Proverbs without ever citing a passage that forbids corporal punishment.
Here is the rub, if you chose or choose not to spank your children more power to you. That is not sinful. However, you have no Biblical leg to stand on in forbidding any of us to spank our kids.
Dean: I disagree. I do agree with Jess on this subject. What parent would think that physically hurting a child in anyway is scriptural is beyond me. Where in all of scripture do you read that is the proper interpretation of scripture. Scripture interprets scripture and where in all of scripture did a parent physically spank a child.
Jesus for example disobeyed his parents by going into the temple and doing his father’s work. Where did Joseph and Mary ever spank him? Where did David’s father spank him etc. Moses or any other person in scripture? I believe it is a gross interpretation that has been passed down and not thought through. I am in 100% agreement with Jess on this.
You do not present biblical arguments, except those from silence. Do we know whether David’s father spanked him? We do not.
Jesus, being the sinless Son of God, did not EVER disobey his parents. Your comment accuses Jesus of sin and is theologically horrifying.
You cannot just impose your emotions on scripture. The Bible is interpreted by grammatical and historic analysis, not by emotions.
Dave: It is not accusing Jesus of sin. Good grief. He was doing his Father’s work, it wasn’t sin for crying out loud.
The Bible also teaches from silence. There is not one passage in scripture that tells us any children were spanked or switched with a tree branch etc. Christianity is study and thinking, critical thinking.
You have given one passage. One. I have given numerous Biblical examples. Spanking is not Biblical in my opinion. It has been taught that way and passed down as many erroneous teachings are. What does the Bible say about children? Children are precious and must be dealt with that way. We are to teach, and we are to discipline when absolutely necessary, but that is not teaching spanking.
Think about this as well, if you have to give a warning on what is spanking and what is abuse, then spanking may not be a good, biblical approach. example: Warning, do not hit in anger etc. when I think it is safe to say most spankings are indeed given when a parent is pretty angry.
We walk in obedience to the WORD, not to our feelings. The word teaches this. We cannot put our feelings, even negative feelings, above what the Word teaches.
Debbie,
If it said instead of “Do not hit in anger” but rather “Do not hit” you might have a case.
That many parents violate the Scripture and hit in anger, does not mean the Scripture should be reinterpreted.
From my own childhood, I never recall my dad hitting me in anger. Although I do think that he went overboard in his spanking and his way of justice, it was never in anger.
He would call the seven of us kids into the room, ask who did it, and if no one confessed, he would take out his homemade paddle and hit each one of us. As the oldest, I went first, probably got the most whacks but it was always done in what seemed a controlled way, not emotionally driven.
Interestingly Michael Pearl uses the same scriptures given here by many of you. Yet I doubt you would condone his teachings or the result of them.
http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2012/january/editorial-spanking-abuse.html
Pr 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
Pr 22:15 Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.
Pr 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
Pr 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
Pr 29:15 The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.
The word rod is “shebet” in Hebrew. This word is defined as following in Strong’s Hebrew Lexicon #7626: rod, staff, branch, offshoot, club, sceptre, tribe a. rod, staff b. shaft (of spear, dart) c. club (of shepherd’s implement) d. truncheon, sceptre (mark of authority) e. clan, tribe
Also related:
Proverbs 10:13: In the lips of him that hath understanding wisdom is found: but a rod is for the back of him that is void of understanding.
Proverbs 26:3: A whip for the horse, a bridle for the ass, and a rod for the fool’s back.
Debbie, that is a simple case of guilt by association.
There’s a murderer who drives a Chevy.
You drive a Chevy.
You are guilty of murder.
Every doctrine and teaching of the Scripture is abused. The abuse does not negate the truth.
A counterfeit bill looks like a real one. but the presence of counterfeits does not mean that real bills are fake! that is your argument.
We need discernment, not the denial of scripture on the basis of emotion.
Debbie, with all due respect, citing what happened to that girl to seemingly impugn us is well, lame.
“The Bible is interpreted by grammatical and historic analysis, not by emotions.”
You couldn’t be more right, Dave. Thanks for making that argument.
Dean,
Brother, I did show the passages, found above. A preacher cannot be a striker.
Not one verse says that. Not one. (unless you are using the antiquated and inferior King James – never know what that will say!!)
No timeouts around our house when I was growing up … only knockouts and blackouts! My father exercised a firm hand of judgment … in love. His three sons often required him to fulfill the “don’t spare the rod” Biblical mandate. He had an effective Scriptural formula for discipline: (1) lay down the law and (2) extend a period of grace .. before (3) judgment falls. After sporting a sufficient number of red backsides, we knuckleheads finally got that message. I never bought “this will hurt me more than you” when the tree switch headed my way, but I realized that truth when I became a father. With all the kicking and screaming we could muster, bystanders probably thought we were being abused, but my father’s correction steered us in the way we should go. Just think, I grew up to fuss and fight with the rest of you folks on this blog!
You were abused Max. This is not acceptable and should never be passed on as proper, biblical punishment. It wasn’t. It isn’t.
Nah … I was disciplined in love with spankings not beatings … help rather than abuse. I loved my father and he loved me enough to correct my wrong and steer me to the right. Even as a child I knew he was trying to help me when I crossed the boundaries that would take me where I didn’t need to go, if left unchecked.
(Note: my reference to knockouts and blackouts vs. timeouts were exaggerations of the corrections I received – that would be abuse)
We like to focus on negative discipline, where explicit consequences are meted out for specified infractions. The reason we focus on it is because of the ethical distinction that is difficult for many people to make between negative discipline and abuse.
But there is also positive discipline. I’m not talking about rewards for doing things well. The word in the Marines always was that you didn’t get a reward for doing what you were supposed to do in the first place. Rather, positive discipline is more like discipleship. This is where you take your kids and show them what they are supposed to be doing and do it with them. This is where you show your kids what is valuable in life by modeling it. If you want you kids to pray, pray more than you expect them to. If you want your kids to live sacrificially for others, live sacrificially for others more than you expect them to sacrifice. I showed my kids how to honor their mother by honoring her. My wife showed them how to honor me by honoring me herself. And we had, and still have, each other’s backs in discipline. We just celebrated 19 years by getting a cabin in the mountains this past weekend. The kids got themselves up and went to church on their own. My oldest teaching the 3d graders and his sister helping him in my wife’s absence. My youngest came up to me when we got home and showed me the Bible passage his class studied. So we spent an hour in Bible study after the fact, just me and him. Why do they do this? Because they are internalizing what we have demonstrated is important positively in every way possible.
The more you do that, the less negative discipline you have to worry about.
Great points, Jim.
Jim,
Bravo! I tip my hat to you. I always thought you just talked pretty and lacked wisdom. I was wrong. 🙂
Well, Jess, any wisdom I have is of God and I’m assured that I have much more foolishness to overcome. Thanks for the words.
Look, all I’m saying is we have to handle things the N,T. way. We are under Grace and not the Law. The very reason that most of you think you have to give tithe to the church, the O.T. says so. The very reason most of you think you have to spank your children, the O.T. says so. We are under Grace. That’s all I have to say about the subject, except there are more and better ways to correct than spanking.
I’m sure the NFL foot ball player thought the same way you guys think.
Look what happened to that little four old boy. The father should have been locked up, or had the same thing done to him and then locked up.
Jess, you are certainly open to giving your opinions just like the rest of the us here. And, I enjoy listening to all the wisdom. The problem with the OT/NT argument that you make on this subject is that it is not about Law vs. Grace. The same wisdom that the OT writer uses applies across the board from Adam to the last man/woman caught up in the air.
And I agree with you on the tithe comment…. I don’t think anyone probably gives the 30%+ anyway 🙂 I trust all here are cheerful and liberal givers to the ministry of the gospel!
Chris: It most certainly is, although as I said I see nowhere in the OT where any parent spanked or hit their child with a rod or any other instrument.
Debbie, something not shown by example in the NT does not mean it is wrong. Example: Nowhere in the NT do we see women participating in the Lord’s supper.
But we do see women participating in ministry. We do see deacons and teaching men.
So I would disagree Les.
The OT also says that anyone who talks back to a parent or disobeys should be put to death but I don’t think you guys would do that would you? And dietary laws as well as other passages should then be used. The Bible must be read in the context of the Christians in that time period who would not view a rod as a weapon. You also have these passages to contend with.
“Fathers do not exasperate your children; instead, bring them up in the training and instruction of the Lord.” (Ephesians 6:4), “Fathers do not embitter your children, or they will become discouraged.” (Colossians 3:21), or “What do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a whip, or in love with a gentle spirit?” (1 Corinthians 4:21).
But Debbie, still no example of a woman taking the Lord’s supper. Same non example on that as with spanking.
As to disobedient children being stoned, again a misunderstanding of the law and how God’s law affects us today. The LBC 1689 captures it well:
“3._____ Besides this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits; and partly holding forth divers instructions of moral duties, all which ceremonial laws being appointed only to the time of reformation, are, by Jesus Christ the true Messiah and only law-giver, who was furnished with power from the Father for that end abrogated and taken away.
( Hebrews 10:1; Colossians 2:17; 1 Corinthians 5:7; Colossians 2:14, 16, 17; Ephesians 2:14, 16 )
4._____ To them also he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the state of that people, not obliging any now by virtue of that institution; their general equity only being of moral use.
( 1 Corinthians 9:8-10 )”
Notice those last 8 words.
Les, Debbie is an antinomian. I figured that out a while back. Always ends up in an argument over the 3rd use. Typical view from Istoria.
Adam: I am not antinomian, but thank you for the compliment. I find those that accuse me of that understand pretty well exactly what I am saying.
Debbie, good to interact with you again… I’ve been away for a bit on some projects,… but its always good to see your name pop up!
This is an interesting subject being bantered about here… so, this “spare the rod” dilemma is really about how we are going to put the Proverbs on display. How do you take those passages in context, and remove the rod? The OT/NT argument is really not an argument, since there is not a “thou shalt not rod a child” in there…. but, the writer of the Proverb give us numerous reasons to use the rod, …certainly not as a law (of course never to harm, only to help). It is obvious when harm is done with a rod or tree branch, and the text is not speaking about that…. so how do we teach these texts and trust God is right in instructing us in these things?
Jess, I agree with the others. You are not applying appropriately the law/grace distinction. Under your view (apparently) we may as well disregard the OT and just use Gideon New Testaments.
No, the wisdom literature is called “wisdom” for a reason. There is much wisdom contained therein. In fact, I’m surprised some certain teetotalers haven’t chimed in to disagree with you as they often cite OT warnings as a basis for abstention.
Les,
The old is our school master, the New is our lesson for today. We cannot do away with the old for that reason, the new is what applies to us for today. We can’t be whipping children period. It is unjust and is not N.T. teaching.
What you are advocating is very close to hyperdispensationalism or ultra-dispensationalism – basically, the only scripture that binds us today is post-Pentecostal.
Yes, certain things were changed from OT to new, but that which was taught in the OT is still binding on us today unless it was in some way abrogated by the NT (for instance, dietary laws).
ALL Scripture is inspired and useful for teaching – even Proverbs and other OT teachings. they have not been nullified, negated or superseded unless by some kind of specific NT teachings.
You can’t simply throw out ALL OT teachings you don’t like, Jess.
You are mimicking the teachings of modernism and liberalism that deny the Word by saying we have to listen to “the Spirit of Christ” instead of to the Word of God. You have thrown out massive chunks of God’s word for what you call “grace.” But grace is never a denial of the Word.
Dave,
Sir, say what you must, strike who you must, punish who you must, I can’t stop you. I can tell you one thing, Jesus didn’t strike little children, and he didn’t say for anyone else to strike children. Jesus showed compassion to little children.
You love your grand children, let me tell you about mine. All three of my grand children have made a profession of faith. They are the most tender hearted children I have ever met. They love the Lord with all their hearts. One is an electrician. one is a junior in a university with a 4.0. One has just started high school he is an A student. They haven’t been spanked, they have been grounded plenty of times. My point is spanking doesn’t make a child better, it’s all in what they have been taught.
Instead of just your opinions to negate the Bible, can you give some sort of exegetical justification for your views? Your opinions are not authoritative. Can you give Scripture.
Hebrews 12 uses the example of a loving father who inflicts painful discipline on his children – right in line with the OT teaching. There is NOTHING that negates the truth of the Proverbs system. Nothing.
The word discipline as used in scripture means to teach not hit.
Les: The NT should be the way the OT is interpreted so I would agree with Jess, although as I said, I think the OT is being misinterpreted here.
The Bible is not a how to book. It is a book that from the OT to the NT points to Christ.
Exactly Dave, thank you. Debbie, “teach not to hit”? I can’t even begin to guess where you got that definition. Paideuo, chastisement in KJV, includes the idea of teaching by punishment. Now, you may choose to punish Non-Corporal fashion, but “teach not to hit” is true even when you spank someone for beating some one else.
Debbie, if you can just make stuff up like that, it is hard to have a decent conversation.
Debbie,
Obviously God does not physically use His mighty right arm and hand and hit us.
But He does discipline/teach us through pain and suffering and loss, among other ways.
Ps. 119
73 Your hands made me and fashioned me;
Give me understanding, that I may learn Your commandments.
74 May those who fear You see me and be glad,
Because I wait for Your word.
75 I know, O Lord, that Your judgments are righteous,
And that in faithfulness You have afflicted me.
What then is the purpose of this affliction imposed by God on His servant?
76 O may Your lovingkindness comfort me,
According to Your word to Your servant.
77 May Your compassion come to me that I may live,
For Your law is my delight.
78 May the arrogant be ashamed, for they subvert me with a lie;
But I shall meditate on Your precepts.
79 May those who fear You turn to me,
Even those who know Your testimonies.
80 May my heart be blameless in Your statutes,
So that I will not be ashamed.
The answer is comfort, life, to make one a witness for God, and a blameless unashamed heart.
Now Hebrews 12 tells us:
4 You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin; 5 and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons,
“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
Nor faint when you are reproved by Him;
6 For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines,
And He scourges every son whom He receives.”
This word, scourge, means to whip and lash. Certainly God never uses a whip on us and actually lashes our back. But He does afflict us in various ways. And what is the purpose of God in scourging His child?
So we read on:
7 It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? 8 But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? 10 For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. 11 All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
The scourging of the Lord upon His children is so that they will endure, to live, for our own good, and to train us so that our lives will yield the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
Now if you compare these passages with each other, one from the OT and one from the NT, you will see that they speak of the same things. and look towards the same results. Likewise if you also compare some of the passages from Proverbs, you will also see great similarities:
Pr 13:24 He that spareth his rod hateth his son: but he that loveth him chasteneth him betimes.
Pr 22:15 Foolishness is bound in the heart of a child; but the rod of correction shall drive it far from him.
Pr 23:13 Withhold not correction from the child: for if thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die.
Pr 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.
Pr 29:15 The rod and reproof give wisdom: but a child left to himself bringeth his mother to shame.
The inescapable conclusion is that parents are to use the [physical] rod when necessary, even as our Father uses the [spiritual] rod when necessary.
Does this mean every child should be spanked? No.
Does this mean that parents can’t abuse spanking? No.
What it means is that even as it is prudent for earthly parents to use the rod, at times, out of love, and in the hope to correct their children, that God also uses affliction, at times, out of love, to correct His children.
Dave,
I think you are wrong about Heb. 12 You are taking it out of context. In Heb. 12 where is the leather whip, or rod. It’s a spiritual correction. You know that, come on!
Jess, what Dave said. You are on dangerous ground brother.
Amen.
It’s not dangerous ground to disagree with spanking(hitting) a child. Good grief. When are you guys going to know that. We are under grace, not law.
Dave: By making such statements you are trying to control. That is wrong. I am not trying to control, but getting you guys to think a little bit. I would control if I could because I hate for children to be hit.
Debbie, I did not mean to imply that it’s dangerous ground to disagree with spanking. What I did and do mean is it is dangerous ground to state that the reason to not spank is based on a disregard for the OT and a dependency on only NT teaching. Jess, and maybe you since you agree with him, has a severely faulty OT/NT dichotomy hermeneutic.
Les,
No dangerous ground for me. I choose Grace over Law any day. If we were under the law we all would be beat to death. I’m sure the mix up of Law and Grace is not on my part.
Jess,
“I’m sure the mix up of Law and Grace is not on my part.”
“So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don’t fall!”
Exactly Jess.
I decided to take a break and think back over the years of how many preachers I’ve seen whip their children. I’ve seen three different preachers whip their children, and it wasn’t a pretty sight. There were marks left on the children. I saw a preacher stop in the middle of his sermon and take his two children to the front door and spank them, the whole congregation could see him do it. He walked back to the pulpit and finished his sermon.
Let’s not play around, you don’t have to strike a child to teach a child.
I simply don’t know why some of you think you have to be striking someone to get your point across. Ask yourselves does it make sense?
Striking will surely get movement, but usually does not result in motivation, that is, an internal state that more thoroughly and critically processes the undesired behavior. I agree with you, Jess, I don’t hold to biblical support for striking children (my rationale for such was indicated in an earlier post); the practice is counterproductive and ignores most of the literature on the development of children and if done often enough subsequently may attenuate the development of higher levels of moral reasoning.
Norm, I understand and respect your view. I do not agree fully, though I think we would agree that abuse is always wrong . . . period.
The difference in our opinion no doubt goes to our respective views of the Bible. I note this comment from your post: “”” ignores most of the literature on the development of children.””
Obviously, all human literature is going to run the gamut of perspectives which is why I think the Bible is the only reliable source for child-rearing principles. It is one thing to disagree on what the Bible says, it is quite another to include “other literature” as a guide for godly parenting.
I think this is where I part ways with your view of what constitutes the proper literature guiding child rearing.
Norm,
Sir, wonderful words, thank you for them. You hit the nail on the head.
It is sad to see how Christians tend to run from biblical truth when it becomes less popular in secular culture.
That has gotten us in a lot of trouble in the past. It will get us in trouble in the future as well.
Dave,
I agree with you about biblical truth, I think you are right on the money. Striking children, is not N.T. truth.
He said biblical truth. Is the OT not the Bible, Jess? Is that what you are saying. Did Jesus not believe the OT to be the Word of God? Did Paul not refer to the OT when he wrote, “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God”?
Adam,
You know I’m not saying that. I’m saying there is a difference between Law and Grace.
Ministers of the Gospel know that all men are under the Law of God which is not the Mosaic Law, which was for the OT Jewish people.
That in violating the Law of God, men earn eternal condemnation that can only be put from them through faith in Jesus Christ, which is by the mercy and grace of God.
The only people alive today that are not under Law are Christians. They are under grace. And because they wish to live their life for their Savior, they seek to walk in obedience to Him.
So Jess,if that means for you, that you are not to spank your children, then to you it is sin to spank them. But for another, it might be a sin not to spank them at certain times.
Jess, I’ll just ask this one more way, because you are one of the first men that I’ve known to stick to his guns on this type of hermeneutic….
If I hear what you are defending here… it is that the Law is all of the OT writings, and that none of the OT applies to believers after the time of Christ’s death on the cross. Only the majority of the NT teaching is applicable to anyone, post Christ’s death.
In other words, your teaching us that God’s right, just, and holy use of the rod to Parents, as He explained in Proverbs, was immediately turned into sin at the finished work of Christ on the cross. And that the discipline of a child by his parents when using the rod is sin, and that is because of sin being nailed to the cross,…all discipline with the use of the hand or rod, on any child post Christ’s death is bound up in Christ. So then, as a result, all parents who strike a child with the rod are in sin.
Does that sum it up in your mind?
Or, said in maybe a completely different way (hopefully)….You just prefer not to spank a child… and believe there are better ways to discipline?
Jess,
It is not not NT truth either.
Did Jesus ever yell at children? if not, neither should we.
Did Jesus ever send them to their rooms when they disobeyed? No?
Then we should not either.
Did Jesus or any other NT parent restrict their child’s phone use?
Neither than should we.
In fact, do we read of any NT parent actually disciplining their children?
No? Than we can conclude that disciplining one’s children is not a NT way.
The NT tells children to obey their parents, but except for a reference to discipline and scourging from the OT in Hebrews 12, never tells parents to discipline their children in any way.
Mike look at Hebrews 12. It teaches how God teaches his children. We should in the same way. It’s a spiritual teaching. You have taking it out of context.
It should he teaches us, and taken not taking. I was trying to swat a fly and type at the same time. Lol
Mike,
Physically assaulting a child is much, much different than sending them to their rooms. Mike, the reason parents physically discipline children is that they don’t know of any other way of teaching a child. It is something that has been passed down from generation to generation. It needs to stop.
You guys brought up tithing about a year ago, and most agreed that the N.T. church does not pay or give tithes but the N,T. church gives from the heart. My question is why was tithing left behind and the same ones bring physically disciplining children forward.
You can’t have it both ways. Either we are under the Law or we are under Grace
Jess,
You are confused.
First of all, I never brought up tithing, this year or last year, or the year before.
Second, whether or not spanking is much much different than sending a child to their room is a SECULAR NON-BIBLICAL judgment.
The NT says nothing about either. The OT says nothing about sending a child to their room, but does speak of using the rod on the child.
So you,Jess, need to make up your mind. Are you going to argue from the Word of God or simply give your opinion?
Because all you have been doing so far is giving your opinion. Are you a clinically trained child behavioral analyst? Are you a recognized expert in the field of child raising? If not, you are just a guy with an opinion devoid of Biblical truths to back you up. Or if you have some, please share.
Mike,
Don’t you realize you are making no sense. The reason the N.T. doesn’t mention whipping a child is because we are under grace, not law. Yes, I am an expert in child raising, I have raised three. If I had just raised one, I would still have been an expert. What are you an expert in Mike, whipping?
Jess,
I hate to tell you this, but you’re simply wrong about this issue.
Eph. 6:4 And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.
The word translated “nurture” here carries the meaning of both instruction and chastisement or correction. And the Hebrews 12 passage brings much clarity to the subject because in speaking of God’s dealing with us the author also refers to the chastisement we receive from our fathers. The only way you could be right is to change the meaning of words.
No one is speaking against discipline. But to physically hurt a child is beyond my comprehension. What if as an adult you knew that you would get physically smacked when you did wrong. Would you spank your wife if she did wrong? Either with your hand or a paddle? Why would you do this to a child?
Spanking children is not abusive at all, it is biblical and some times necessary.
How about this story of Adrian Peterson just yesterday. He still thinks he did the right Biblical thing. Dave mentioned about the world, but the world isn’t always wrong, and that is sad as the church should be the first to condemn this and other wrongs. But it isn’t. So God allows the world to see what the church should have seen a lot longer ago.
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2014/09/16/adrian-peterson-and-the-false-gospel-of-spanking/
Debbie,
Physical discipline can be abusive even as verbal discipline can be abusive. Whether or not Mr. Petersen’s discipline crossed the line, I leave to the appropriate authorities.
Do you any NT verse that prohibits physical discipline?
Mike: Jess is arguing from the Word of God. He has given you scripture. I have given you scripture. I have asked questions. To say that I have to spank a child or I am going against the Word of God is more a control game than truth.
Think about that statement. I or anyone must spank a child, hit a child, or we go against God. We go against Christ. That is what you are saying.
Focus on the Family has step by step instructions on how to spank a child. Why would you need this and a warning against abuse if this is so right and Biblical?
http://www.focusonthefamily.com/parenting/effective_biblical_discipline/effective-child-discipline/biblical-approach-to-spanking.aspx
Debbie, I may have missed it but has anyone said you **have to** spank to be obedient to the word?
Les: I don’t see how you missed it, it’s in about every comment.
Debbie, do you really mean that others have said that you (and all Christians) MUST spank t be biblical? Or have they simply defended THEIR biblical right to spank and asked you and others to not condemn them for that even if YOU and others don’t believe in spanking?
Les: I suggest you read the comments.
Debbie, I’ve read them. So never mind.
Les is right, no one has said that spanking is the only legitimate form of discipline or that everyone must use that form of discipline all of the time. But we have been trying to point out that any argument saying that spanking isn’t biblical is asinine.
Debbie,
I have NOT argued that one MUST spank. I have argued against the idea that the Bible, and in this case the NT, PROHIBITS a parent from spanking.
And in fact, the NT tells parents NOT A THING on HOW to discipline their children.
So those who reject the OT wisdom books have ZERO case to make against spanking from the NT.
And in fact, I said that if one feels that it would be a sin for him or her to spank, then it would be wrong for them to spank.
But it is also wrong to impose one’s OPINION upon others without a SHRED of evidence as to its veracity to being God’s Truth.
Which is what you and Jess have sought to do.
So…
Spank or don’t spank, its up to the parents, and may they be confident in their conscious before God.
peace
Thank you John and Mike! I feel like I’ve been talking to a brick wall. Unfortunately each of us has at some time or other stuck stubbornly to our narrative in spite of the facts. I think Debbie is doing that here.
Les,
You’re welcome brother. Among the commenters on this blog I have always found you to be one of the most reasonable and gracious even when I have disagreed with you. Bill Mac is another very reasonable and gracious commenter. There are several others as well.
When you, Dave, others write things such as “your argument isn’t against me, but against the Word of God”,” you are making things up”(which scripture was given numerous times against striking children and the “making up” was from interpreting in a first century reading of the words), and other such statements, that is saying Jess and I are not obeying God’s Word which is so bogus. We are going against your interpretation of God’s Word.
No Debbie, the bottom line is that the idea that spanking is unbiblical is an asinine and indefensible proposition. You’re simply wrong.
John W., same to you brother. We don’t have to agree on all things to still be gracious to one another. I’ve failed at that more than I want to admit, but I’ll keep trying.
Debbie,
“When you, Dave, others write things such as “your argument isn’t against me, but against the Word of God”
No one I’ve seen is saying you are disobeying the word if you choose to not spank and hold the position that it’s not required of us to spank.
What several of us are arguing is that it is against the word for you, Jess and others to declare that spanking is unbiblical for all.
In summary. Some of us believe it is biblical to spank if we choose to. Others of you believe that YOU shouldn’t spank. What we are pushing back against is when you say that WE are going against scripture when we choose to spank.
Mike teaching is a form of discipline, that is the N.T. way.
Jess,
Teaching can take many forms. Some teachers only lecture. Some use lectures and other methods. Some teachers might use physical discipline. You have a ZERO Biblical case that some physical discipline is anti-NT.
All you have is your opinion, and not a single shred of NT backing. ZIP.
Mike,
I already gave all the scriptures it’s above us somewhere. You have no N.T. case for striking. Preachers aren’t suppose to be strikers anyway.
Jess,
None of those Scriptures said one way or the other about physical discipline.
You have NO case for your position.
None.
A striker as defined by Strongs:
a bruiser, ready for a blow [or a]
a pugnacious, contentious, quarrelsome person.
1st Tim 3:3 and Titus 1:7.
Neither of these definitions for striker apply to a parent or especially a father who seeks to lovingly and reluctantly paddle their child.
Eph. 6:4, Do not provoke your children to wrath.
Of course this can be done verbally as well as nonverbally as well as physically.
Matt. 18:6, do not offend one of these little ones.
offend: to put a stumbling block or impediment in the way, upon which another may trip and fall, metaph. to offend
Of course this can be done by verbal. non-verbal and/or physical discipline if done wrong.
“Remember the woman caught in adultery and thrown on the ground before Jesus. Jesus said neither do I condemn thee. Jesus done away with physical punishment.”
Jess said that Jesus has done away with physical punishment, but how did He do away with it? By simply saying that He wouldn’t condemn this woman?
But of course we are not talking punishment but discipline. So this passage does not apply.
Heb. 12:6-7, Whom the Lord loves he corrects, notice he didn’t say beat, slap, or kick.
Jess says notice that he didn’t say beat or slap or kick, but also notice that He did say SCOURGE.
So by Jess’ logic we are not to beat or slap or kick our kids but it is okay to scourge them?
And these are the Scriptures Jess gives to back up his POV, his opinion. But they do not in any way back up his opinion.
This is my last comment, then I’m going to bed. Some Christian parents will call their children names, like stupid, butthead, dummy, idiot, and make threats like, I’ll kick your butt, I’ll work on that head, or I’ll slap some sense into you. In my opinion the parents are the ones that is showing the foolish behavior. You guys don’t strike peoples children in church but you teach them. Doesn’t your children whom God blessed you with deserve the same teaching and not hitting.
Mike,
In the N.T. your same Strongs will tell you in Heb.12 that scourge means the Holy Spirit will gnaw at you.
Remember in Heb 12 we are talking Spiritual, not Physical.
But there is a comparison to how fathers discipline children in the Hebrews 12 passage as well, please tell me how does a father scourge spiritually? And while you are at it can you tell me does God ever use pain to discipline?
Jess,
So then you agree, there is no actual passage in the NT that tells parents to discipline their children?
I left out HOW TO so my last post should read … is there any passage that tells parent how to discipline their children?
I just want to add that Shepherding a Child’s Heart by Tedd Tripp is an excellent book that all parents with children in the home should read. It presents an excellent theology and practice of biblical discipline. Withhold Not Correction by Bruce Ray provides a solid theology of discipline, but the language is strong and less clear when it comes to practice.
What is so strange to me is that a wonderful organization like the SBC is so caught up and possessed by such a brutal act as whipping a child. My God, this borders on the line of being cultist’s. No one actually said this, but it is inferred that if you don’t whip your children you are a bad Baptist and Christian.
We have highly educated people in the SBC, some with Doctorate degrees.Why go back to the mid evil days of whipping children. Does anyone see how barbaric this is besides me. Why do we act as if we are so uneducated that we have to resort to inflicting physical pain on a child in order to teach them.
Bringing some typical acts of the law forward to use under Grace and call it God’s word for today is beyond my comprehension. Why not bring all the law forward and live under it. I choose Grace, because Grace through faith is what saved me and secures me in Christ Jesus. Frankly, I’m ashamed of what I am hearing. Aren’t we an intelligent enough people to get our point across to a child without hitting. WWJD?
Jess, I love you brother,…. but your argument here is only with God and his Word. I’m just trying to figure out what you are saying. I get that you feel like spanking is not as good as other forms of discipline, but this Law/Grace argument leads up to comments like this:
“What is so strange to me is that a wonderful organization like the SBC is so caught up and possessed by such a brutal act as whipping a child. My God, this borders on the line of being cultist’s. No one actually said this, but it is inferred that if you don’t whip your children you are a bad Baptist and Christian.”
That statement is not true at all.
But more importantly, how is spanking a Law?….I’m still not following your argument for spanking being a Law. How do you make spanking into being a Law?
Chris,
In the O.T. is one spares the rod you hate your son. This is what I mean by being the Law. In the N.T. the Bible teaches grace. One doesn’t have to strike their children.
Thank you Jess for the brief explanation. That is very helpful to me, in that is helps me to understand your reasoning for turning Wisdom into a Law. The reason I keep harping at this point, is because it is important for all teachers to understand the purpose and instruction of a Proverb. First of all, we can be sure that the writer of the Proverbs is not enacting new Law. Solomon is simply applying God’s wisdom. Law and Grace already exist, from Adam, given to Moses, and in Christ. Wisdom is consistently applied to all actions under Law and Grace; even as Christ fulfilled the Law. In other words, all wisdom found the Proverbs can be applied from Adam until the end of the age.
“A wise man will hear and increase in learning, And a man of understanding will acquire wise counsel, To understand a proverb and a figure, The words of the wise and their riddles. The fear of the LORD is the beginning of knowledge; Fools despise wisdom and instruction.” NASB
So as God gives this wisdom;
“The rod and reproof give wisdom, But a child who gets his own way brings shame to his mother. When the wicked increase, transgression increases; But the righteous will see their fall. Correct your son, and he will give you comfort; He will also delight your soul.” NASB
God is not creating a law or grace statement,… certainly he has not set a Law in place to spank a child in any of the scriptures. Solomon’s encouragement, to the man of understanding, and to those that fear the Lord and his instruction,…. He is giving great wisdom across all ages of mankind. To create a false implication that spanking is Law, and that somehow the Law has been nullified because Christ fulfilled the Law is to ignore wisdom, and to begin to set up new Laws is dangerous. As teachers, we should be careful not to begin instituting new Law when its only based upon our own experience.
Again, I agree that discipline comes in many forms,…yet to turn spanking (depicted by the use of a rod) into a Law, just so you can conveniently nullify spanking and create a new Law to never spank in the NT ….. that certainly nullifies the wisdom that Solomon received from God.
Mike,
Do you have any idea of the difference between the spiritual and the physical. What do you think a spiritual scourge means.
Mike,
All of the scriptures I pointed out applies, and you know it. You tried to bring out a long detailed reason to whip a child but you failed miserably. Why don’t we just have a requirement that all new members of a Baptist church be whipped before full membership occurs. The reason we don’t do that is that we are under Grace not the Law.
Jess,
There are two points here.
One point is the one you seek to make: that the NT never tells us to spank or whip or beat our children.
Jess, you are correct.
But no one is arguing against you on that.
The other point is the one I am making: that the NT does not tell us how to discipline our children. You seem to be arguing against that BUT you have provided ZERO evidence from the NT. All you have is your opinion.
Some people look at the wisdom literature from the OT as inspired by God and meant to give us instruction on how to live wisely in this world, both then and now. And from God’s Word they read that spanking is an effective way of discipline and of raising their children in a godly way.
NOTHING you have brought up ACTUALLY contradicts those beliefs. All you have to offer is an opinion. So then these people are left to decide between what God is telling them or what Jess’ opinion is.
You have not made a reasonable and/or compelling argument as to why they should give up using OT wisdom books to aid them in their life. All you have offered is an OPINION.
When we weigh the opinions of men against the Word of God, we should always take God’s side.
I bet that is what you do and what you want others to do as well.
peace.
Mike: Maybe this is where common sense and love would come in. Look at verses pertaining to children. To Christ they were most precious. There are more passages on not harming a child which is my point and Jess’s I believe. Another passage is “Let the little children come to me”Matthew 19:14; Luke 18:16; Mark 10:14). We have pointed out that Shepherds did not hit their sheep or break their legs, but the rod was used to ward away dangerous animals and such. It was used to gently prod not as a weapon against the sheep.
So taking that, the Bible says to raise a child in the way he/she should go, to bring them up in the things of God. This is how we are to raise our children, we are to gently discipline, to teach. The Bible is full of ways but as I said, the Bible is not a how to book, but a book that points all to Christ.
BTW this is what I see as “God’s side.” And by making such statements you are indeed saying that this is God’s side, but it isn’t. God does not hurt children, he loves them more than adults I believe. They are more precious to him. This view is what begins the God is a punisher to his children view. That view could not be further from the truth.
Debbie: “This view is what begins the God is a punisher to his children view. That view could not be further from the truth.”
Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. In your struggle against sin you have not yet resisted to the point of shedding your blood. And have you forgotten the exhortation that addresses you as sons?
“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
nor be weary when reproved by him.
For the Lord disciplines the one he loves,
and chastises every son whom he receives.”
It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons. For what son is there whom his father does not discipline? If you are left without discipline, in which all have participated, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Besides this, we have had earthly fathers who disciplined us and we respected them. Shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as it seemed best to them, but he disciplines us for our good, that we may share his holiness. For the moment all discipline seems painful rather than pleasant, but later it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it.
(Hebrews 12:3-11 ESV)
“To Christ they were most precious.”
Which is why he disciplines.
“God does not hurt children”
It depends on what you mean by “hurt”. According to Hebrews he causes pain to his children.
Debbie,
Parents who use OT wisdom literature to raise their child up do so because they too think their child precious and want the child to come to Christ.
In fact they see that proper physical discipline does not harm the child but helps the child. So based on their read from the Word of God, they physically discipline their children when they see such discipline as appropriate.
But when you look back at what OT shepherds did with the rod and their sheep, you cross a line that invalidates your argument. If YOU can look to the OT to discern how to raise your children today [and of course you can] THEN it is hypocritical of you to deny others the same ‘look back’.
And all you are left with is your own biased opinion.
Now when you say God does not hurt children you are again just speaking your opinion. In the first way, you assume that one can only be “hurt” by an actual physical strike. So you assume that only actual physical strikes can hurt children. This is most assuredly a lie. One can “hurt” children in many ways without ever touching them.
Secondly, you are assuming because the child feels some physical discomfort that they are “hurt”. Again, that is just your opinion. I certainly felt physical discomfort when my dad spanked me. But the only hurt I received is when he did it unjustly. But whether it was a physical punishment or non-physical punishment, I only hurt when it was an unjust punishment. Some times it was a relief to be punished for my wrongs, to be squared up, to be set aright, to start clean again.
Thirdly, since you brought up shepherds and sheep and the OT, let it be known to you the truth of God’s Word, that God told the Israelites numerous times to go into the land and kill all the people, including the children.
That He regularly brought affliction upon His disobedient children to turn them from their sin and back to Him.
In conclusion,all you offer is your own biased opinion. And as long as you do not abuse your children or neglect them, how you discipline them is your business.
Jim, Mike,
You guys are holding to something that is not in effect today. I want each of you to think of a legitimate reason to hit a child. Another words for what reason would each of you hit your child, and can it be handled another way.
“…holding to something that is not in effect today.”
On what basis do you say that?
Jess,
Let’s separate opinion from questions.
OPINION OF JESS: You guys are holding to something that is not in effect today.
Unsubstantiated and seemingly biased opinion.
Already addressed and still you throw it out there as applying to “you guys”.
Start with explaining what this is and its Biblical foundation. Please be in depth and do not use more opinions.
Thanks,
mike
Jess,
as to your questions…
Well Jess, I do not have children that I am raising anymore. I haven’t spanked a child in close to twenty years. And I probably never will need to again.
And i can’t remember the last time I spanked my youngest, who is in her twenties now. Neither can she. She said the spankings weren’t too bad ut she really hated the kneelings and the lectures, Ha, she still hates the lectures! [She still gets those]. She and her older sister were at the house last night when I was responding to you and so I asked them.
So given that each child and each situation is different, I would say that a legitimate use of spanking a child is when the parent who loves the child seeks to correct the child and can do so without being anger controlled.
But since you can not find a single NT verse that prohibits spanking, you are being hypocritical to condemn others for it.
I’ll offer examples of some of my own. My kids are past the spanking age. In general spanking was established as the just consequences for serious infractions. Those happened rarely. The presence of the concept in the home gives weight to certain infractions and teaches justice. Spanking can also be used as an immediate attitude adjustment although it must be used with sense in what works for each child. In my home this was a single very mild and immediate swat on the hind end while the kids were young – preschool age.
Something I never had to do, but I recall my mom did to me once – once, because that was all it took – was she smacked me quickly and strongly in the face with her open hand for taking the Lord’s name in vain. I didn’t like it at the time, but it was totally warranted and she never had to do it again. I look back on that correction fondly.
I suggest reading Phillip Keller’s book “A Shepherd Looks At Psalms 23. ” In the Old Testament, since you want to go there as well, the rod as an instrument of authority and not used for hitting people or children. (Ex 7:9, Ex 7:12, Numbers 17:7). I believe strongly in scripture interpreting scripture. The New Testament interprets the OT. You can call it opinion if that makes your case, and admittedly some of it is, but I believe that opinion has strong Biblical backing and my opinion does not abuse or hurt a child physically. Can you say the same?
What I and Jess is saying is not opinion, although I never felt right about spanking a child. It’s physical pain that God never puts us through. The natural consequences of sin is the discipline.
Debbie, I recall you accusing someone of “always going to extremes.”
Did anyone hear suggest that God condones “breaking a child’s leg?”
Seems you might have taken the “extreme route.”
Jack: Where in the world did I say anything about breaking a child’s leg? Good grief. My comment was the fact that it is and used to be taught that a shepherd finds a sheep and breaks it’s leg, which a shepherd never did, yet it was taught as fact and not many questioned that teaching. I pointed this out to show how erroneous teaching has occurred in Southern Baptist churches and then it is passed on from others into the next generation until some dare to check it out or study for themselves and find out the truth of what scripture says.
I said nothing about breaking a child’s leg for heavens sake.
John Wylie,
For your first question, the answer is all in the relationship between the father and his children. In the proper relationship a child does not want to disappoint his father because of the love and respect a children have for their father. If the child fails their heart is broken in the same manner if we fail our Heavenly Father our heart is broken. Scourging is a form of teaching and Spiritual discipline. (not hitting). What the child has done wrong will gnaw at that child in fear of not making their father happy. Every child wants their parent to be proud of them. This is the N.T. way.
For your second question. Does God ever use pain for discipline? John, except for the pain of a broken heart I really don’t think pain would be necessary. If that would be the case, no Christian would ever waver because the physical pain would be so intense we would immediately step back in line. Right off the top of my head I cannot think where God used Physical pain to correct a wavering Christian.
I just want to say this has been a very interesting discussion. I have enjoyed every minute of it. Thanks Dave for this wonderful post. Keep up the good work.
“”” I believe strongly in scripture interpreting scripture.”””
Normally, when I see a statement like this my interpretation gene kicks in and automatically translates it: “”I believe strongly in letting my choice of scriptures interpret scriptures.” Psalm 23 . . . seems like a slam dunk.
Proverbs 23:13-14 seem a bit inconvenient to that premise however:
13 Don’t withhold discipline from a youth;
if you beat him with a rod, he will not die.
14 Strike him with a rod,
and you will rescue his life from Sheol.
Not only does this verse teach corporeal punishment, but for emphasis states it twice in two verses.
I do agree with the principle of letting Scripture interpret Scripture.
Yes Jack you are absolutely right. So much for the rod never being used to strike.
Funny Jack, that’s what I was thinking about your view. 🙂
Jack,
You are in the O.T. not the N.T.
Jess, It was Debbie who resorted to the OT and Jack just demonstrated her lack of consistent interpretation.
Jess, I am unaware of the N.T. verse that says Jesus came to “abolish the O.T.” I always believed that if it were true in the O.T., it is still true today. I am unaware of an orthodox theology that believes “truth has a shelf life.”
Don’t spank if you don’t want to. I spanked my daughter exactly once in her life, and that was just enough. I spanked my son more often–and I don’t think that it was enough.
I stopped spanking my son when negotiating became a safer approach for me.
Interestingly, the last conversation we had before he left home for the Navy he stated that he did not feel I was “strict” enough when he was growing up. Sadly, he was right and I did him no favor by not making him more aware of the consequences to some of his choices.
In God’s rich grace, God is correcting issues that I caused by not spanking him enough.
You believe what you want to believe, but I’ve seen to many instances where parents (myself included) erred on the side of too easy discipline. Only in a few, very rare cases have I seen the opposite have lasting negative effects.
You do what you feel is right, but do not be surprised that many you encounter on this blog will not be willing to tear out our O.T. to meet the demands of your opinion.
Jack,
My friend, you don’t put new wine into old wineskins.
Not one time did I say the O.T. was abolished. I said we are under Grace not the Law.
Jess, you can parse words all you want but people have given numerous O.T. and N.T. verses to support their view.
You only use semantics of “grace not law.” You ignore that there was grace in the Law and no grace apart from the Law.
You also have used the word Law as a metonym for the O.T. when it suited your purposes.
First, as has been pointed out a couple of times: Proverbs is not a part of the Law, but general teachings of eternal truths. It is wisdom literature. You can ignore it but you will not be blessed for it.
So, semantics simply will not support your contention that somehow the O.T. (you used this to describe my post) truth is still as true to day as it ever had been.
Your inconsistency makes your theology little more than a religious opinion. We all have those.
Interact with Proverbs 23:13-14 (just one of many). Show where the N.T. abrogates the truth unequivocally taught there.
I can appreciate your views on that verse.
Jack,
I didn’t parse words, I used the words in their context in Proverbs. See my last responses to Mike and Jim, that will answer your questions.
Jack: The application of the law was transformed by the coming of Christ and his death, burial and resurrection on the cross. It changed everything and he fulfilled the law that Israel could not, that we cannot.
Hebrews 8:13, Hebrews 10:9, Hebrews 10:1-3. The entire book of Hebrews. For starts.
Debbie, the Book of Proverbs is not part of the Law, but I don’t think that matters in your opinion.
Nothing in Hebrews changed or altered any truth in the O.T. I don’t know any theologian that taught this (orthodox theologian that is).
Mike, Jim,
You guys failed horribly, you never answered the second question, could it have been handled another way without hitting your children. I’ll answer the question for you, of course it could have been handled another way, both of you gentlemen know it. So the question is, why did you strike your children if there were another way to handle the situation. Could lack of patience, immaturity, pride, or ignorance have played a part in striking your children. Don’t come up with “the bible says so”, that is a cop out. The N.T. doesn’t say so. Mike you and Jim have admitted the N.T. doesn’t say you have to strike your children.
You assume too much, Jess. Asking whether it could have been handled a different way is a red herring. The point is that the Bible allows for it as one of the legitimate tools for discipline.
Since you are all about making sure that your questions are answered – and when they don’t you fill in the blanks by making false assumptions – you didn’t answer my question earlier: on what basis do you say that corporal punishment is not in effect today?
And I won’t do you the discourtesy of answering my own question by assuming that you have imperfect motives like you did to us.
Jim,
One reason is Heb. 12. These scriptures are to be used Spiritually, not to be taken literally. A Spiritual scourge, not a physical one. The N.T. does not tell you to strike a child. We are to teach a child in the ways of the Lord. I cannot find anywhere in the N.T. that the way of the Lord is to strike a child. I mentioned earlier that I worked for the Juvenile Justice System for 15 years.
Most all the Juveniles were struck since birth, beaten and bruised, scarred for life
Some of these children’s parents were religious, a point I would like to make is most Americans have some form of religion even if it’s in bits and pieces. When the world sees the church beating their children, the world says if they can we can. Did you know when the Bible speaks of a rod and staff, some think it is one item. A hook on one end and a club on the other end. The O.T. seems to say to use a club on your children. The world in turn does the same thing. I know there are a lot of children beat to death in this country. some children are beat beyond recognition. I can tell you if this is the case a child will surely die under the rod, even if the Bible says the child will not die. I think the church needs to take a long hard look at these scriptures in Proverbs that has been brought up numerous times.
Jesus said if thy hand offend thee cut it off, if thy eyes offend thee pluck them out. We all know we are not to literally cut off our hands or pluck out our eyes. So why do some of you say you have to use a club on a child. That is what a rod is, nothing but a club. Jess, I don’t think that is what that means, so now are you backtracking. Come on, these are barbarous acts and all of you know it. You all said, physical punishment is still in effect today.
Yes, things could have been handled differently besides striking a child. You know that Jim. But if not, you have disciplined your children in the wrong way, you was suppose to use a club according to Proverbs.
Jess,
How do you beat on a child spiritually with a spiritual club?
Now loving discipline will not kill a child, only abuse will.
So instead of seeing the truth of the Word, you plug in your emotional experiences and then want to call that NT truth.
Still not s single verse that shows that parents should not spank their children.
Still only your opinion that spanking is wrong as you seek to inflame with words like BEAT and HURT and WHIP.
The NT does NOT say disregard OT wisdom teachings, but you do.
Then you say don’t disregard them, they mean something other than what they say.
Your play here is just plain wrong.
Mike in answer to your question, you discipline a child with the word of God. Yes a club that proverbs is talking about will kill a child, remember if you spare the rod. A rod is a club no matter how you look at it. How are you going to beat lightly with a club. It is not in the N.T. that you are to beat your child with a club.
Mike, you are a pretty smart guy. Although, you’re not the brightest light on the Christmas tree, but you’re still pretty smart. You know we are not to beat our kids. That is simply not the N.T. way. But, you are not being Biblical according to Proverbs, you should have beaten your children with a club.
Jess,
You make assertions regarding Hebrews 12 without exegeting how you arrive at your conclusions. The way you formulated your answer was thus:
A) You made an assertion about Hebrews 12.
B) You followed it up with a general observation from your personal experience.
If ‘B’ was intended to support your conclusion in ‘A’, then you are doing eisegesis, not exegesis. If it wasn’t then all you have is an unfounded assertion. Either way, your handling of scripture isn’t persuasive.
I won’t go through it word-for-word, but offer a quick run-down of the logic of the passage:
Chapter 11 set forth people of faith who did not receive the promise of God. That promise is Jesus Christ (11:39-40). So that pattern is used to set up a brief discourse on Jesus regarding the fact that he suffered first and received glorification afterward (12:2-3). Christ suffered physically (12:2).
That pattern is used by the author of Hebrews to encourage us in our present struggle against sin (12:1,3,7ff). We suffer God’s discipline in order to achieve holiness and righteousness (12:10,11).
In this context, the author compares God’s discipline to that of our earthly fathers (12:7). What pain do we all share from our fathers (12:10-11) that we respect them (12:9) that can also be referenced as a common experience fitting to be an example of God’s discipline?
This raises a question in the context of our discussion: Which is greater, physical pain or spiritual pain? In this passage, regarding discpline, the physical pain doesn’t give rise to spiritual pain, but rather spiritual peace (12:11,14). The response to our discipline is to have the strength to be righteous (12:12). How does this happen? A key word in this passage is ‘hypomeno’, ‘to endure’ (12:1,2,3,7 – note, verse 1 is in noun form: ‘endurance’). We must endure the physical suffering of discipline in order to achieve the spiritual condition of righteous peace.
The sense of verse 13 that fits the logic here is something I have a person illustration for: I have arthritis in my toes and I have high blood pressure. I run and hike to help control my blood pressure. To run with arthritis in my toes is a painful thing, but in order to achieve the benefit of the exercise, I endure the pain. Another one: In the early church it was observed that persecution often produced more converts to Christianity such that Christians were willing to seek martyrdom in order to win more souls. The church had to step in and tell them that it wasn’t a good idea to seek martyrdom. But the pain was nothing compared to the results as far as those Christians were concerned.
In the ESV, the word translated ‘endure’ in verse 20 is a different word although the sense of the word in this context is similar. The idea is that those who have not endured discipline will not be able to withstand the command of the Lord. I have another personal anecdote that serves as an illustration. In boot camp the drill instructors were hard on us for a reason. If you can’t handle this, you can’t handle this. The reference in verse 18 and following is to the time when God spoke to the Hebrews from the holy mountain and they begged him to only speak to Moses. They couldn’t handle face-time with God.
In lthis light, our goal is to produce children who grow up to be adults who do more than simply make good grades or have successfull careers. We need kids who will further the Kingdom of Heaven and it requires the kind of discipline that many of us don’t have the stomach for. I’m not just talking about physical discipline, but I’m talking especially about taking the kids along when we do ministry. My kids with my wife and I have spent time with the Yukpa Indians in Venezuela, have visied farmers in the Andes, have done inner-city work in Maracaibo and surrounding areas, have accompanied me door-to-door in India, have taken the gospel to the poor section of our town, have taught Jesus to kids in public schools in our region, and so much more. Why? Because we are working in the Kingdom and we are preparing them to follow after us. They told us that they know that we have used our personal money to accomplish much of this, but they have expressed a gladness that they have done without a few things. They also knew that spanking was an option for serious things and experienced that once or twice. And they are grateful for it.
Jess,
It could have been handled, IMO. less effectively. less God-honoring, less lovingly, by not spanking the child.
But oh accuser of man, have you found any NT passages that prohibit spanking?
Or do you simply condemn based on your own biased opinion?
So unless you can actually start giving some substantial answers, I see no need to continue and I will assume that you continue to have nothing but biased opinion to back you up.
Mike,
No where, no where, nowhere, does the Bible say to spank a child. The Bible says to use a club on a child and beat the child. That is found in Proverbs. If you don’t beat your son you hate him. Look up what a rod is, it’s nothing but a club. The Bible don’t tell you to spank your child, it tells you to beat the child with a club.
Mike, according to your own words you have been sinning by spanking your child. Mike you have been doing it wrong. Get yourself a club, unless you think those verses have another meaning.
Mike,
You said the O.T. is still in effect. I’ll take Grace any day.
Jess,
That is so sad. That you would lower yourself to misrepresentation.
Goodbye Jess.
In Proverbs 23, the rod ~could~ be translated ~club~. But when dealing with children, it probably should be translated ~stick~.
For those who say such “beatings” were only spiritual, how does one spiritually beat a child with a club?
There is no answer for that. That is because dishonesty and a lack of integrity doesn’t have proper answers for them.
Mike,
Have you not heard the word of God is a sharp two edged sword?
Jess: I think your answers are very good. I agree with you 100%.
I hope and pray that spanking is seen for what it is, and I am sure none here do not or did not love your children. I want to say that for the record. Sometimes religion is our own worst enemy as in the teaching of spanking and a hot bed of other wrong teachings. And yes, that one is just my opinion.
Debbie,
Your entire argument has been just your opinion. You and Jess are obviously wrong with no biblical justification whatsoever for your position that spanking is not biblical. When you went to Psalm 23 and made a demonstrably errant comment about the rod, Jack showed you the truth but you never acknowledged it.
Interesting discussion. Many among us would like to hold on to the option of corporal punishment in the family (and, lest that phrase is too sanitized let’s be more specific and say that we wish to keep alive the practice of deliberately and forcefully inflicting pain on children as a tool of discipline and instruction) and in this discussion we see church leaders who teach such not merely as an option but as a command by almighty God. God wants every parent to inflict pain on their children. Some insist on a physical object, a rod. Take the stick. Beat the child. God is pleased. We all feel better. We have even had contributors here who see value in starting newborn infants down the corporal punishment road with non-painful physical contact, sort of training wheels for whippings.g
I would only observe that pro-rod men like to parse the verses and smugly feel god is on their side. When women join this conversation (seldom here) the focus is on the well being of the child. If we had more women here we would have a more balanced discussion.
One thing I offer as conjecture, the authoritarian hyper-patriarchal flavor of some in the SBC will lead to more child abuse, more sex abuse, less safe places for women and children.
If one of you whack-the-kid devotees brought your son or daughter to my church or preschool with wounds or marks, we would be compelled to report. You can quote all the bible verses to DFACS and law enforcement.
I have read every comment but I have not seen bases for the broad and sweeping characterizations that you are making William.
I know that I have never said that God has commanded us to spank what I have said is that God allows us to use that to so long as we do not use it abusively.
Of course there is a line between discipline and abuse and that is true, and perhaps more often, with verbal and emotional tactics and discourses.
*I meant to say I have NOT read every comment….
Also I contend that those of us who would not prohibit the use of spanking certainly do not hold any monopoly on “smugness” in this discussion… That is patently obvious.
Yeah you are right William, it doesn’t matter what the Bible says. Maybe we ought to get next Sunday’s sermon out of the funny papers, because of your disdain for parsing verses.
Dave Miller: There is little doubt to those who read the Bible that physical discipline is not only permitted, but expected in the raising of children.
Chris J: Spanking is clean, immediate, and demonstrates a clear message…. timeout is abusive, takes too long, and communicates all kinds of messages. God is right in this matter!
Dr. J: Sometimes it takes real pain to teach avoidance.
…et al
If a man from Mars read all this, he would agree with me. This piece is a defense of and promotion for corporal punishment. I’m OK with that but recognize in our day that the preaching of inflicting pain on kids will increase child abuse. It may or may not make for better kids.
I point again to the predominant viewpoint here, male, and how that can skew the opinions.
I won’t disagree that your comments can often be likened to the logic of nonexistent Martians.
If a child is to be abused, and have undo pain inflicted by their parent, physical punishment is not the only way.
William, the citations are not equal to what you said above:
“God wants every parent to inflict pain on their children.”
Right Les!
And certianly not this…
“Take the stick. Beat the child. God is pleased. We all feel better.”
Or
“Whack the kid devotees…”
And most assuredly they don’t bolster his assertion that our position will increase child abuse and other forms of domestic violence.
I wonder if William also thinks that teaching biblical wife submission to male headship “will necessarily increase” domestic violence?
Any biblical principle relating to family issues can and will be misinterpreted to justify sinful actions- that’s our job as pastors to teach people the right biblical meanings and balance to reduce this likelihood. Right??
Oh? No one has maintained here that the Bible allows AND requires corporal punishment? We just choose different descriptive terminology. I’m offering a perspective here for my wonderful SBCV colleagues – your sterile discussion (mostly by men) is seen differently by many others.
William,
You are just using over the top hyperbolic terminology to demonized people who disagree with you.
Yes, yes. More broad, sweeping statements about what we pro rod folks allegedly have said. Would that Debbie, Jess and now William would actually refer to what we have **actually** said.
William,
You said in another thread this morning…
” While it is never stated in Scripture, the earth is 6k years old. Period. We go from there…”
So, from that …. Apparently… it’s ok for you to make dogmatic claims that are not clearly espoused in scripture as fact…but when others with whom you disagree affirm a practice that is (at least) directly implied in scripture…they’re just being “smug whack a kid activists”?
Um-Kay.
Dave, I’m not following your reasoning here. Could you explain?
I think you understand it quite well. You assert something that is not plainly or directly implied in scripture namely, an exact age of the earth, as fact…but at the same time emphatically deny many of us the “privilege” of holding to, in this discussion, a permissible practice that’s specifically and plainly delineated in scripture – namely – non abusive spanking as corrective discipline.
You’re just being ridiculously hyperbolic.
No, Dave. I’m not denying you anything. I’m forcing you to acknowledge that what you call “non-abusive spanking” is the deliberate infliction of pain and also that some of you believe this to be commanded by Scripture; hence, God expects parents to inflict pain on their children or be considered disobedient. I fully recognize that this can be done in a manner considered “non-abusive.”
I don’t think you have a apt analogy with the YE thing. I admit to being hyperbolic and provocative. I wish it were also ‘ridiculous’ as you describe it but it isn’t.
By the way William. I’ve let this go till now – but you’re not on a name basis with me. You may address me by the name I post under, as I do you, please.
Sorry, I generally eschew the handles; hence, volfan I address as David, etc. I didn’t force you to identify yourself. It was your choice. If you wish to revert to anonymity for good reason. I’d be happy to oblige. I recognize that some here have good reasons for wanting to be anonymous.
Otherwise, it’s a little silly to insist on a handle. Just look at the regular commenters here – first name, last name, often a spiffy photo.
Come on Bro, don’t get chippy on me just because I made a provocative comment (one which didn’t address you by name or handle).
Silly or not, I’ve made a request.
Fair enough, my friend. I’ll do that.
Two things only I would add: first, there are parents who do not recognize there is a line which separates abuse from discipline. And those who do not recognize that line have a tendency to go beyond it, sometimes even while justifying it with the same Bible verses used in this article. Those who do so raise children (if they survive) who are damaged, and all too often themselves become abusers, perpetuating the cycle. We have to be careful in such discussions as this, least abusers hear us supporting their cruelty. Second, while I agree that physical discipline is Biblical, and we used it with our kids as needed, it is not always effective. Indeed, one thing a parent has to learn is WHAT discipline is effective with what child, and in what quantity. Our son was a strong-willed child, and we learned pretty quickly that a spanking had little effect on him; however, denial of things he enjoyed (desert for instance) worked better, and fining him (out of his allowance) worked better than that. That the Bible allows something does not necessarily mean the same thing works on all children to the same degree, or for that matter, on adults, as our prison system is testimony.
John
John,
Now that comment is perhaps the most even handed and fair comment in this discussion. No denial of the biblical allowance for physical discipline, no accusal of being hyper patriarchal, smug, or not being sensitive enough to female input, just a simply assessment of the pros and cons of the situation. Thanks brother for helping us get back on track.
Agreed, John F.
In fact, I stated the exact same things earlier and even gave examples from my and my younger brother’s childhood.
That’s what rubbed me so terribly wrong with thorton’s diatribe this morning. He sweepingly generalized all of us into child abusing and abuse fostering mysoginists.
I haven’t read all the comments but all the ones I’ve read called for appropriate balance and the teaching of that balance to our people. Yet, William, Jess, and Debbie insist on twisting what we’ve actualiy said into the worst kinds of ad hominem straw men.
I would ask Dave cline et al to expand their reading a bit and explore whether or not the recovery of submission and patriarchy in the evangelical church has let do increased domestic abuse and child abuse?
While I posit none of that to my faithful colleagues here, there is a direct line to it from some of what is argued here. Maybe not a short line but a straight one.
When the pastor attempts to teach his congregation on “biblical” discipline in the home, he should be very careful, highly informed, and acutely aware of how his handling may be taken.
Dave Miller, wise soul that he is, does a creditable job. Others have not done so well.
“expand their reading a bit and explore whether or not the recovery of submission and patriarchy in the evangelical church has let do increased domestic abuse and child abuse?”
So what’s your solution…don’t teach what sinners might (sometimes intentionally) misapply, misconstrue or use to justify sinful action?
You must have a short preaching list.
William,
Maybe one day we neophytes will by your unwavering mentoring influence – ascend ourselves to the ivory tower of intellectual superiority wherein you so obviously reside.
Of course whatever level we may attain will be lower than the level you are at…surely.
We can only dream.
(end profound sarcasm)
Dave, I’m educated beyond my intelligence…a hacker and plodder. See SGM, the family church movement, some of the reformed groups, along with some others in the patriarchy recovery movement about this. I’m just saying we cannot have a sterile discussion of this subject in isolation.
Since you asked, I’d say that if a pastor wants to teach on biblical discipline he should spend most of his time warning about abuse. Most congregants already know about spanking, whipping, switching etc.
Dang…yesterday you were saying “AMEN” to my stuff…today I get sarcasm…but I do sarcasm pretty good myself and may find being skewered with it helpful occasionally.
God bless you.
William Thornton,
I applaud you Sir, for speaking the truth. I will go so far as to ask the striking advocates at what age do you think is appropriate to start striking your children, and what area of the body is it biblically appropriate to strike the child? I think, right off the top of my head, the answer is the back. This is where Jesus was beaten, and I think the slaves during the biblical times were beaten on the back. Gosh! I just gave some of you the definition of corporal punishment.
I’m so glad we are under Grace and not the Law.
Jess, you said,…
“I will go so far as to ask the striking advocates at what age do you think is appropriate to start striking your children, and what area of the body is it biblically appropriate to strike the child?”
That is where wisdom comes in, and is what God is conveying through Solomon. Parents that love their children know when it is proper to discipline with pain, and what kind,… you are only arguing about the application of a narrow kind of pain. Even though it appears that you believe all pain to be abuse…. the correction, discipline, etc. may present itself in various forms of pain, … like the psychological ones you espouse to use ( i.e.,…lack of playing basketball,… inflicts pain in a unique way). Some can and have quite effectively argued that a child is in more pain when left confused in a “time out” session versus a well articulated and loving spank on the butt. I’ve seen children in fear of their rooms, or that “chair” in the corner. Many psychological disorders have been caused by not heeding the wisdom of God given to Solomon.
It appears you have narrowed pain to be defined by only a physical “strike” alone (and you jump from a spank on the bottom,…. to a full, all out flogging of Jesus, which is definitely opposite of what the Proverb writer has in mind). So far, your definition is in disagreement with the writer of Proverbs. The Law/Grace argument is convenient, but does not apply because “pain is pain” no matter how you apply it…. otherwise it would be a bribe (That is why Grandparents have a tendency to remap the Proverb, and then send the kids back to their parents).
“The rod and reproof give wisdom, But a child who gets his own way brings shame to his mother”
Chris,
I only referred to the same scriptures in Proverbs that was used on this post. Some said Proverbs is everyday wisdom, so I explained what those particular verses meant. Now, everyone is changing their story trying to say that a rod is only a stick. Suppose I go along with a rod being a little stick, I will point out the little stick would have to be large enough to kill a wild animal.
When a teen comes to you for council and tells you she has been sexually active, do you immediately think she needs to be beaten, or do you think I had better be on top of my game and give her Godly council?
My point is doesn’t our children deserve the same humane treatment as someone we barely know, or do we immediately strike them using Proverbs as our reason to strike.
Jess, I understand the point you making. All that I am trying to point out is that as faithful teachers of the “wisdom” text, we have to use wisdom and rely on context. The writer is of the Proverb is clearly speaking of a child, not a sexually active teen. Solomon puts the wisdom into context. In other words, Solomon is not implying that any teenager get a rod to the back for being sexually active. My point though, keeping it in context to a child, is that our contemporary culture has seen fit to exchange one form of pain and replaced it with another form of pain. When according to the wise council of Solomon it could be actually less harsh and less painful to spank than to sequester.
If I remember correctly, it wasn’t very wise for Solomon to have all of those wives and concubines. Not to say that he didn’t possess and speak wisdom. If you are referring to grounding as one form of pain for another. Grounding is the way to go, because it is not physical punishment. Some have said that grounding is worse than physical punishment because of the prolonged guilty feelings. Doesn’t God deal with us in the same way and it lasts until we repent. My friend that is good enough for me.
I disagree Chris – seems like you’re making the same argument as Jess in that you’re saying that grounding is abusive with no real evidence for it but simply your opinion how is any different than what he saying.
Both grounding and spanking are tools in the parental toolkit – if course for a plethora if reasons abuse of any kind is off limits.
“Common horse sense” as grandpa used to say, is important here.
Either can be done abusively just as both can be done decently and in order.
Same with lectures and other forms of verbal correction.
Discipline comes from a place of love and sincere desire for the good of the child – abuse comes from a place of control, vengeance and selfishness on the part of the parent.
Motive is King.
I agree with that logic Tarheel. I am not saying that putting a child in timeout is abusive. What I was pointing out to Jess, if you read the entire string, is that pain comes in both forms,…by the Rod and not by the Rod (timeout). Abusive behavior with either is wrong and sinful.
Chris,
I would like your opinion on Proverbs 10:13. You mentioned context, so please keep it in context.
Jess,
Since you mentioned context, Proverbs 10:13 in context is not even talking about disciplining children. In that day and time one of the negative consequences of wrong choices very well could mean being beaten, that’s all Solomon was talking about.
John Wylie,
Thank you so much, you are 100% correct. That was the laws of Israel, which does not apply to us today, which puts a lot of the Proverbs into question as what applies and does not apply to us today. Thank you once again.
Jess, as you know this section describes a series of conduct; both good and evil, and of speech; both wise or foolish, in a man. A comparison that is echoed by the Psalmist (Psalm 32) and in the James’ letter chapter 3:13ff. An example of contrasts, where a fool is always needing correction. Solomon is not reflecting wisdom in the discipline of a child (he covers that elsewhere), he is using language to give clear contrast to illustrate the plight of a man who continually lacks judgement (clearly contrasted against a man that has discerning speech).
Chris,
You are correct, read how I answered John Wylie, the same answer applies to your comment. Israel had certain laws that does not apply to us today. We do not beat those who are stubborn and want to do their own will. I submit to you that all Proverbs are not for us today. With that said why choose whipping or striking children and say that is for us today. We either have to accept and live under the law of Israel, or look to the N.T. for all our answers in life. The N.T. does not advocate whipping children. It’s just not in there. Are you saying we should beat the stubborn and self willed into submission to the will of God. I know you don’t believe that, so why whip children into our submission, when it can be handled another way.
Jess,…I hear you loud and clear brother. We will have to disagree. I believe what God is illustrating wisdom…. “The rod and reproof give wisdom, But a child who gets his own way brings shame to his mother”. The proverb above is only illustrating the contrast or result, it is not prescribing law.
Of course I believe that spanking a child is not always the response, and that there are effective ways beyond spanking that are truly corrective. I also believe that it takes wisdom to spank, and it takes wisdom to discipline in other ways as well. And using both applications are of great benefit to the child in the hands and in the arms of a loving parent.
I also agree that there are abusive parents, that beat their children, lock them in rooms for long periods of time, withhold food, etc. etc. All of those things are sinful and create a hate filled child, confused and scarred.
This has been a good discussion… Thanks for hanging in there.
http://themattwalshblog.com/2014/09/18/spanking/
The simple facts of life:
We couldn’t understand the simple absolutely Perfect Plan if we had to:
Isaiah 55:8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.”
We fail to do our jobs in teaching the young; resulting in blasphemy of the Word:
Titus 2:
1 But speak thou the things which become sound doctrine:
2 That the aged men be sober, grave, temperate, sound in faith, in charity, in patience.
3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.
We fail to provide structure and authority in LOVE:
Proverbs 13:24 “Whoever spares the rod hates his son, but he who loves him is diligent to discipline him.”
Ephesians 2:10 “For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
Ephesians 5:6 “Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of GOD upon the children of disobedience. “
Then expect not to here:
Matthew 7:23 “And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.’ “?
Maybe we should look around at such failures in the world and blame ourselves for the results; not look for excuses or self derivations; we are not smart enough to do that. But hopefully we should be smart enough to read the Word and figure out what is needed and do our jobs; not sit on our lazy behinds and act like spoilt children playing in the sandbox. This has nothing to do with GOD or actually saving souls.