John Wylie, a frequent commenter here, is from Springer, OK.
There is a dual definition to the term church. One is the corporate body of Christ and the other is the local assembly. Those local assemblies were organized. There is a move away from what some call the “organized church” in our day, they say that the local church in the scriptures was only a loose fellowship of believers meeting in houses with no leadership and no organization. Is that what N.T. churches looked like in the Bible?
1)They had officers that had to meet specific qualifications. (Eph. 4:11;Phil. 1:1; 1 Tim. 3:1-13)
2) They had a prescribed mission. (Matthew 28:19, 20; Acts 1:8)
3) They had ordinances given to them to observe with instructions on how they were to be observed. (Matthew 28:19, 20; 1 Cor. 11:23-34)
4) There was a prescribed procedure for judging matters and disciplining errant believers. (Matt. 18:15-17; 1 Cor. 5:1-15; 1 Cor. 6:1-8)
Were there churches meeting in houses? Certainly (Rom. 16:5; 1 Cor. 16:19; Col. 4:15; Philemon 1:2) But that was not to the exclusion of larger assemblies. 120 believers were meeting in the upper room in Acts 1. A number of believers were meeting in an upper room in Troas in Acts 20. My point is that it seems that the model in the book of Acts was that believers would meet in homes throughout the week, then on Sunday they would meet corporately. So the idea that the sum total of the NT church experience were small, informal house assemblies is simply not the whole story.
John,
Good points. The organized local church is of vital importance to the believer.
R. G. Lee, past SBC president and pastor of Bellevue Baptist Church, Memphis, TN once had a woman he did not know visit his church.
She said she would like to sing at his church.
He asked her what church she was a member of.
She replied she was a member of the universal church.
Dr. Lee said, well why don’t you sing for them?
David R. Brumbelow
Thanks David. I always appreciate what you have to say.
And I do believe and love the doctrine of the universal church, but it has been abused much like the doctrine of the priesthood of the believer has.
John
You ask…
“Is that what N.T. churches looked like in the Bible?”
“1)They had officers that had to meet specific qualifications.”
———
And you give, Eph 4:11, as a reference text. In the KJV, it reads…
11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets;
and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry,
for the edifying of the body of Christ:
Was wondering…
1 – Are ALL congregations required to have ALL of these “officers?”
“apostles” “prophets” “evangelists” “pastors and teachers”
1a – Are they a N.T. church if ALL “officers” are NOT present?
1b – How many of these “officers” have to be present to be a NT church?
1c – If not ALL have to be present? Why NOT all?
2 – Who does the “some” refer to? – he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets;
2a – Does the “some” refer to congregations? Or, individual belivers?
2b – Or, does the “some” refer to apostles and prophets?
3 – Did he give “some” congregations apostles?
3a – And, “some” congregations prophets?
4 – Or, did he give “some” apostles for ALL congregations?
4a – And “some,” prophets, for ALL congregations?
5 – Did he give “some” apostles to “some” congregations?
6 – Can ALL congregations learn from an apostle? And, learn from a prophet?
6a – Or only “some” congregations?
——
Well, there are more questions but you get the idea…
Do you have apostles and prophets where you fellowship?
Why did you use Epe 4:11, as a reference text?
Amos,
Thanks for the questions. The office of apostle is not extant today. What we do know is that the churches had pastors/bishops and deacons on a seemingly regular basis. It’s not up to me to determine if a church is a NT church, I’m not some crazy Landmarker.
Well, John – you might not be a landmarker – but crazy? That’s debatable. 😉
I was wondering where the word officers came was mentioned.
Mitch,
You’re splitting hairs here, the word officer doesn’t have to be mentioned for us to recognize that pastors/bishops and deacons were officers in the church.
Could we agree on the term “leaders” vice “officers?”
If you want to use the term leader instead of officer, that’s fine by me. I have no problem with the use of either term, but if that is a sticking point for some, then use the word leader.
For the record, I always use Dave Miller. not sure who Dave M is, but we are two separate individuals.
Is Dave M. your alter ego?
I thought you were trying to rebrand yourself.
Well, seeing how the captain of this ship didn’t write that comment, I will go on record and saying the BF&M says of the church, “its scriptural officers are pastors and deacons” and “the office of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture.”
I like the term officers when referring to pastors and deacons. I just didn’t want to oppose David Miller on such a trivia matter. Upsetting David M over trivia matters doesn’t bother me so much.
Dave M.
As a sort of Baptist distinctive, via a remark made by Hershel H. Hobbs (BF&M), has derived “officers” out of the need to define the two “offices”. Like John has said…. terms in this case have only little value. But, I would say it can be a confusing term (officer), since the term does not necessarily move far enough to define an ongoing qualification IMHO. I would say the use of “office” and “officer” is a liberal definition attached to a more specific and conservative definition like “servant leader”, or “servant”, where the one serving must remained qualified regardless of an “office”, or being called an “officer”.
My experience in the Baptist world has revealed that many within the congregations in the SBC view the Pastor as “the” officer, and treat him as such (the guy they hire and fire) regardless of qualifications to serve. This liberal view, IMHO, has caused a lot of confusion and relegates to a liberal view of the scriptures on leadership relative to the local congregation.
Dave,
Thank you for posting this article, brother.
Brother John,
Thanks. Blessed by your words.
Thank you Brother McKissic.
Dwight!
Where ya been!? Give an account for yourself. 😉
Seriously, good to hear from you again. I’ve missed seeing your comments and posts!
John,
I think I understand the concern you are trying to raise, but I have not seen that same type of initiative unless one believes that “Baptist” ecclesiology is somehow the benchmark.
You said, “There is a move away from what some call the “organized church” in our day, they say that the local church in the scriptures was only a loose fellowship of believers meeting in houses with no leadership and no organization.” I’m not sure who “they” are, but many churches are small and do meet in homes or small places for lack of funds, or making a wise decision not to go into debt to support a larger place.
In my experience, I have been in well organized “churches” of 2500 that do not have leadership, only political puppets. And, I have been involved in small, 30 member fellowships that have three qualified Pastor/Elders and members that are maturing and serving one another.
I’m probably reading way too much into your brief post, but it seems you have painted with a broad brush making generalizations about the nature of Spirit born assemblies.
Chris,
As to your first question about who the “they” are. We routinely have commenters on here who believe that how we do church today is patently unbiblical. They claim that the church of the NT was an informal fellowship. And they use terms like “institutional” and “organized” as terms of derision.
As to the rest of your comment, you focused too much on the word house and not enough on the word organized. In my article I admit that many churches met in homes, that’s not the issue. It’s the claim that meeting in homes without leaders, and without organization is somehow the biblical model that I take issue with.
ahhh.. got it. I think it is good to discuss what “organization” means in the context of an assembly. There are some highly organized groups that meet in large places, that do not function like a church, and there are those that meet in homes that do not as well.
Do you have a minimum group construct that would qualify as a local church?
Chris,
“Do you have a minimum group construct that would qualify as a local church?”
Because I came out of a pretty extreme Landmarker background I am reticent to judge what constitutes a true local church. I would say that there is no minimum construct if you are referring to numbers or buildings. But if you are referring to the elements that I listed in the article, I would say that a church should have teachers, mission, doctrine, discipline, and ordinances. If a church lacks one or more of these, they are less than what God prescribed. But I won’t say they are not a true church, because we see churches in the NT that had to be corrected because they lacked one or more of these elements.
I think you have spoken wisely! God plants and grows…we tend to keep it off track and exciting.
“. . . unless one believes that “Baptist” ecclesiology is somehow the benchmark.”
Hello, Chris Johnson, 😉
Well yeah! “Benchmark” “High Water Mark” “Ten Ring At One Thousand Yards” “Gold Standard” Any way you would like to say it.
It has been a few years since I last saw an opportunity to state this on SBC Voices. So Happy, Happy, Joy, Joy, here it is:
Baptist ecclesiology is the closest ecclesiology to a biblical ecclesiology in the history of human existence and is the benchmark of a definable Baptist identity.
You did take the bait my friend….. I do agree that the definition imbued within the SBC consists of some precision with allowances. Good to hear from you….. 🙂
Chris Johnson,
I still read the posts here at Voices, although I do not comment as often as in the past.
Having read many of your comments through the years and having spoken to you on the phone at least once, I know you are a reader of books.
A new book on the Pastoral Epistles is out and is an excellent work about some of the content of John Wylie’s post.
The book in reference is: “Entrusted with the Gospel” edited by Dr. Andreas J. Kostenberger and Dr. Terry L. Wilder.
I am reading it now. I think it worthy of your time if you get the opportunity.
Which is a mistake you need to correct, young man.
Except during football season, when you need to make yourself scarce.
Dave Miller,
ROLL TIDE!!!! September is coming and the Crimson Elephant is hungry.
BTW, I owe you a call. Will make contact soon.
I should have known not to poke the bear (the elephant?)
My favorite season of the year….College Football Season.
Go Vols! Beat Bama!
David
Excellent…. I do like a book or two! 🙂
John
Thanks for your reply @ August 24, 2015 at 1:59 pm – You write…
“The office of apostle is not extant today.” (Had to look-up “extant.” Thanks.)
If, in Eph 4:11, The “office” of apostle NO longer exists…
Why does the “office” of pastor/shepherd, in Eph 4:11, exist today?
Why does one exist but NOT the other?
The reason that there are no apostles to day is because the Bible lists the qualifications of an apostle as being one who was an eye witness of the resurrection of Christ. No one is old enough to qualify.
The reason we still have pastor/teachers is because they are still useful for edifying the body of Christ.
If we really want to be picky, I believe that Eph. 4 list (apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors(shepherds) and teachers,) is the ONLY time in scripture that pastor/shepherd is used as a noun, not referring to Jesus. There are other times “sheperding” and “shepherd” are used as verbs, things people ought to do…but not listed as a title or office.
One could even make the case that in this passage it is simply used to describe something people do (some prophesy, some witness, some shepherd, some teach).
Our common usage of the word Pastor has very little biblical support… 🙂
Or to be more precise: our 1 to 1 equating of “pastor” with “elder” has little biblical support.
Totally disagree Andy. 1 Peter 5 does a good job of demonstrating that elder, bishop, and pastor are essentially the same. Elder is what he is, and bishop and pastor is what he does.
Well, those words are made up of different characters (Greek)…yet unequivocally addressing the same critter.
Andy Williams
Much agreement when you write…
“There are other times “shepherding” and “shepherd”
are used *as verbs,* things people ought to do…
but NOT listed as a title or office.”
“Our common usage of the word Pastor
has very little biblical support…”
Yes – In the Bible I can NOT find one of His Disciples…
Who had the Title/Position of pastor/shepherd/leader/reverend.
John
You ask…
“Is that what N.T. churches looked like in the Bible?”
“1)They had officers that had to meet specific qualifications.”
———
And, I think you give, 1 Tim. 3:1-13, as a reference text for those qualifications. Paul, in Titus 1:5-8, also mentions qualifications for elder/overseer. Yes? While doing a little research on these qualifications I noticed some other scriptures that could also be used as “qualifications” for those who call themselves “elder/overseer.” Some of these scriptures apply to all believers.
Since “elder/overseers” are to be examples to the flock. 1 Pet 5:3.
Would these scriptures, qualifications, also apply to elder/overseers?
Are those who call themselves elder/overseers today…
Living Examples of…
1 – NOT lording it over “God’s heritage?” 1 Pet 5:3 KJV
2 – Lowliness of mind? Phil 2:3 KJV
3 – Esteeming others “better” than themselves? Phil 2:3 KJV
4 – Submitting “One to Another?” Eph 5:21 KJV, 1 Pet 5:5 KJV
5 – Prefering others before themselves? Rom 12:10 KJV
6 – By love “Serve one another?” Gal 5:13 KJV
7 – Laying down their lives for the brethren? 1 John 3:16 KJV
8 – NOT speaking of themselves, NOT seeking their glory? Jn 7:18 KJV
9 – NOT “Exercising Authority” like the Gentiles?” Mark 10:42-43. KJV
10 – Being clothed with humility? 1 Pet 5:5 KJV
10 – Humility – a modest, or low opinion of ones own importance.
If an elder/overseer is NOT a Living Example of these 10 …
Do they still qualify to be an elder/overseer?
If an elder/overseer does NOT?qualify?
Should they remove themselves?
And be an example to the flock?
A. Love,
Certainly a local body of believers want a godly man who meets the Biblical qualifications to lead them as an elder/pastor/shepherd. But some of the qualifications are ‘hard and fast’ while others speak to his character of which no man but the Lord is perfect in.
So take your ’10’.
These are traits of a godly man and should be traits of an elder. But every elder is human and stumbles now and then, So part of being a “Living Example” to the flock is to show them how to act after one stumbles.
Amos,
I would echo what Mike has to say here. No pastor/elder is going to model all of those things everyday. Even the apostles Paul and Peter did not model those things every day.
But to answer your first question, I have personally known a number of pastors who model humble, service in the churches they serve.
A. Amos, you bring up a thorny subject for the Baptist. Will a sinning Pastor remove himself appropriately? Well,….generally a sinning Pastor will hide that sin and continue unless he is found out, or exposed. That is precisely the point that Paul is eluding to in his letter to Timothy.
“Elders who provide effective leadership must be counted worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard in speaking and teaching. For the scripture says, “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain,” and, “The worker deserves his pay.” Do not accept an accusation against an elder unless it can be confirmed by two or three witnesses. Those guilty of sin must be rebuked before all, as a warning to the rest.”
“rest” of who? Pastor/Elders
The beauty of how God grows and matures the church with Pastors/Elders, helps maintain the problem that many Baptist churches tend to maintain. A plurality, as Paul makes assertion as normal, are kept working and qualified, as the congregation pays attention.
Lot to be learned from this letter to Timothy.
John
“…the Bible lists the qualifications of an apostle”
Can you give the location of this list for the qualifications?
I did a quick search but could not think of where to look for this list.
——–
“as being one who was an eye witness of the resurrection of Christ.”
Was Paul an “eye witness” of the resurrection?
Didn’t he just see light and hear a voice?
When he first met the ressurected Jesus?
Acts chapter 1:16-22
John – Yes?
I saw that Matthias was chosen…
to be a “witness” to the resurrection…
But, what about Paul and Barnabas?
Is there any record of them being an “eye-witness?”
Acts 14:14
Which when the apostles, Barnabas and Paul,
heard of, they rent their clothes,
and ran in among the people, crying out,
Matthias was chosen as an apostle.
Yes
Matthias was chosen to be an apostle…
to be a “witness” to the resurrection…
But, what about Paul and Barnabas?
Is there any record of them being an “eye-witness?”
Paul personally encountered the resurrected Christ.
Hi Mike
You write…
“But some of the qualifications are ‘hard and fast’…”
Which qualifications would you say are “‘hard and fast?”
Which qualifications are NOT “hard and fast?”
———
“…while others speak to his character of which no man but the Lord is perfect in.”
Why does Paul give so many, 15 +, tough qualifications in 1 Tim 3, and Titus…
If NOT ALL are important?
And the children must qualify also. Yes?
How do we determine which ones are NOT important?
Which qualifications can an elder/overseer stumble in?
And still be qualified?
How many qualifications can an elder/overseer stumble in?
And still be qualified?
Mike – How about these three Qualifications? Are these “hard and fast?”
Here is a closer look at just three qualifications for elder/overseer from Titus.
1 – For a bishop (overseer) “Must Be” *Blameless.* 2 – Just. 3 – Holy.
Titus 1:5-8 KJV
5 …ordain elders in every city…
6 If any be *blameless,* the husband of one wife,
having faithful children not accused of riot or unruly.
7 For a bishop “must be” *blameless,* as the steward of God; not self willed,
not soon angry, not given to wine, no striker, not given to filthy lucre;
8 a lover of hospitality, a lover of good men, sober, *just,* *holy,* temperate;
1 – *Must Be*
Strongs #1163, die. – It is necessary (as binding).
Thayer’s – necessity established by the counsel and decree of God.
This *must be* is the same Greek word. – You *must be* born again. Jn 3:7
Seems to be a small word but very important. Yes?
1 – Blameless
Strongs #410 anegkletos – unaccused, irreproachable, blameless.
Thayers – cannot be called into account, unreproveable, unaccused.
Dictionary – Without fault, innocent, guiltless, not meriting censure.
2 – Just
Strongs #1342 – dikaios {dik’-ah-yos} from 1349;
Thayers – righteous, observing divine laws, innocent, faultless, guiltless.
3 – Holy
Strongs #3741 – hosios {hos’-ee-os}
Thayers – undefiled by sin, free from wickedness,
religiously observing every moral obligation.
Now that’s three tough qualifications for elder/overseers. Yes?
How many elder/overseers today, who honestly examine themselves, seriously considering these three qualifications, can see themselves as Blameless, Just and Holy, innocent, without fault, above reproach, undefiled by sin, and thus qualify to be an elder/overseer? And, if they can see themself as *blameless?* Is that pride? And no longer without fault?
Why does Paul, say, *Must Be* Blameless? Just? Holy?
When, as you say @ August 25, 2015 at 10:32 am…
“But every elder is human and stumbles now and then…”
Do these three qualifications sound like Paul is giving room for stumbles?
By your reasoning, I am assuming that you don’t believe in having elders?
Even the apostles Paul and Peter did not meet those qualifications as you enumerate them.
John
Your #1, reason for…
“… what N.T. churches looked like in the Bible.” was…
“1)They had officers that had to meet specific qualifications.”
You are the one who said these “officers,” in Eph 4:11…
“**had to meet** specific qualifications.”
I just reported on a few “specific qualifications” for elders.
And how difficult, tough, these qualifications are to meet.
———-
Have you changed your mind about your #1?
These “offecers” do NOT?have *to meet*
“specific qualifications?”
1 – For a bishop (overseer) “Must Be” *Blameless?*
2 – Just? 3 – Holy?
Which “specific qualifications” are NOT?important?
Please answer my question and then I will get back to yours.
John
Yes – I believe in elders.
I also believe…
When someone calls them self an elder/overseer…
They have to meet “specific qualifications.”
Just like you said in your #1…
“1)They had officers that had to meet specific qualifications.”
Ok so the article is about the organized church. What about my article was false? Could you also answer my Peter and Paul question?
He’s not giving room for stumbles,….He “is” setting precedent for remaining qualified, maturing, and repenting.
Amos,
Blameless means that they keep short straws with God, and not perfect in obedience.
I think one of two things about, bur neither may not be true.
One, you are in, or rather from, a very legalistic background.
Two, you have been hurt and/or disillusioned by an elder/pastor or a group of them.
Now each individual church [at least the way SB does it] are the ones to determine how the candidate or candidates measure up to the varied qualifications before they call such a man an elder and/or pastor.
Its an imperfect process carried out by an imperfect people who through prayer rely on both the Scriptures and the Spirit to guide them to select an imperfect man.
How much is too much or too little is what that congregation must pray about and decide.
May you ever walk in His grace and mercy,
mike
John
Yes – “Paul personally encountered the resurrected Christ.”
But, I do NOT think that Paul was an “eye-witness” to Jesus…
Or, the resurrection… But I might have missed that…
Acts 22:6-8.
6* And it came to pass, that, as I made my journey,
and was come nigh unto Damascus about noon,
suddenly there shone from heaven a great light round about me.
7* And I fell unto the ground, and heard a voice saying unto me,
Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
8* And I answered, Who art thou, Lord?
And he said unto me, I am Jesus of Nazareth, whom thou persecutest.
And, the list you mentioned for an apostles qualifications in Acts 1:16-22.
Says, when His Apostles, were going to replace Judas.
The new apostle must have,
1 – “companied with us” (assembled with us,)
2 – “ALL the time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us.”
3 – “Beginning from the baptism of John.”
4 – “unto that same day that he was taken up from us,”
5 – “to be a witness with us of his resurrection.”
Acts 1:21-22
21* Wherefore of these men which have companied with us
all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us,
22* Beginning from the baptism of John,
unto that same day that he was taken up from us,
must one be ordained to be a witness with us of his resurrection.
Does Paul and Barnabas fit this list?
1 – Did Paul and Barnabus “companied with” the other apostles?
2 – “ALL the time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us” the other apostles?
3 – “Beginning from the baptism of John?”
4 – “unto that same day that he was taken up from us,” the other apostles?”
5 – “to be a witness with us, the other apostles, of his resurrection.”
I could be wrong but I do NOT think Paul and Barnabas fits this list?
And Paul and Barnabas are called apostles in the Bible. Yes?
If Paul encountered the resurrected Christ, he was both an eye witness of Jesus and the fact that Jesus rose from the dead.
John I agree…
“If Paul encountered the resurrected Christ, he was both an eye witness of Jesus and the fact that Jesus rose from the dead.”
But that is NOT what you said
Was a qualification for being an apostle.
Amos,
What agenda do you have? Just come out with what you believe so that we can have a conversation.
John
You ask… “What agenda do you have?”
I have questions and/or disagree with most of your 4 points in your article. For “what N.T. churches looked like in the Bible?” And the understanding of your 4 points.
I’m seeing things a little differently than you now…
Since I left the religious system in the early 90’s…
You’re the one who pointed to Eph 4:11. When questioned about the apostles and prophets there…
You said… “The office of apostle is not extant today.”
Now, as far as I know, I never met a real apostle.
I’ve met a few that said they were apostles but were found to be liers.
But, that does NOT mean there are NO “sent ones.”
And, the list you mentioned for an apostles qualifications in Acts 1:16-22.
Says, when His Apostles, were going to replace Judas.
The new apostle must have,
1 – “companied with us” (assembled with us,)
2 – “ALL the time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us.”
3 – “Beginning from the baptism of John.”
4 – “unto that same day that he was taken up from us,”
5 – “to be a witness with us of his resurrection.”
And the apostles Paul and Barnabas do NOT?fit
this list you recommeded.
And you are having a hard time admitting that. Why?
Why can you NOT just say thank you?
I had NOT thought about Paul and Barnabas?
Say thank you for what?
Amos,
If you intend for me to continue to try to answer your questions I kind of expect the same courtesy. I asked you above, “By your reasoning, I am assuming that you don’t believe in having elders?”
And I will add these, Should Peter have been removed from being an Elder when he was being hypocritical in his treatment of the Gentiles when in the presence of Jews? Should Paul have stepped down when the contention was so sharp between he and Barnabas they could not dwell together anymore?
John Wylie has done a good job with this and in responding to questions. Ecclesialogy will never be completely nailed down nor will anyone’s positions be totally acceptable to all.
Before I’d continue down the black hole of endless lists of questions, I’d ask for the interrogator to state his or her position, church tradition, and present preferred church. No sense in wasitng perfectly good server space…but it’s John’s topic, not mine.
Thanks William,
That was really kind of you.
Amos you said you disagreed with all four of my points. Could you please tell me where you disagree with the contents of my four points? Thanks.
Did the Church in the Bible not have officers (elders)?
Did they not have a prescribed mission?
Did they not have prescribe ordinances with instructions for their proper implementation?
Did they not have a prescribed method for judging matters between believers and disciplining errant believers?
So far you have presented no evidence against what I wrote.
John Wylie
You write @ August 25, 2015 at 5:00 pm…
“Amos you said you disagreed with all four of my points.”
John – When you re-read my comment @ August 25, 2015 at 3:52 pm…
You will see, I did NOT say I disagreed with all four of your points…
Here is how it is written.
“I have questions and/or disagree with
“most” of your 4 points in your article.
For “what N.T. churches looked like in the Bible?”
Hey – I have lots of questions, as you can tell.
We have only discussed questions about your first point. Oy Vey!!!
And, I said “Most” of your 4 points NOT all.
In fact, I agree with most of your first point…
“1)They had officers that **had to meet specific qualifications.**”
Where I’ll dis-agree is with the word “officers.” I would simply say…
“1)They had “overseers” that **had to meet specific qualifications.**”
Because that term, “officers” is NOT in the Bible.
And, as we have seen…
There are some who believe “elder/overseers” today…
Do NOT have to meet the “specific qualifications” written in the Bible.
———
You also ask…
“Could you please tell me where you disagree
with the contents of my four points? Thanks.”
Okay… Thank you for the invite…
And I’ll also give you some more of the questions I have.
But, for future reference…
Just because I dis-agree doesn’t mean you are wrong or false.
We now have thousands of denominations in Christiandumb.
And all dis-agree bout sumptin…
For a long time I relied on the traditions of the groups I belonged to.
And did not rely on what is written in the Bible.
As an example, “officers?” Well, that’s NOT in the Bible…
But, as Dean Stewart says @ August 26, 2015 at 3:48 pm…
“…**the BF&M says** of the church,
“its scriptural **officers** are pastors and deacons” and
“the **office* of pastor is limited to men as qualified by Scripture.”
So, I now reason, if we are one of His Disciples…
Are we to rely on the doctrines of men, “the traditions of men.”
Or, are WE, His Sheep, His Ekklesia, to rely on the Bible?
Isn’t this what got Rome in trouble?
Thinking “tradtion” is as important as the Scriptures?
It is Written…
John, you have way more patience than I do.
I read through and I can’t quite pigeon-hole Amos’ theological hobby-horse, but he clearly has one. He won’t say what it is he believes, but he’s not listening and I think you’ve been way more gentle in responding to him than I would have been.
But I’d suggest you walk away. Unless he states exactle the point he’s trying to make, the discussion reaches the point of futility.
Thanks Dave. I really appreciate your advice, and I will take it. Also, I am almost certain that A. Amos Love is not his actual name, so he is an anonymous commenter.
You commend for my patience, but I don’t think anyone could do as good a job as you do in moderating this blog.
John
I always appreciate what you say. This is especially good. Thanks for the post
Thank you D.L. I just have a passion for what some might call the organized church.
And I get tired of some of the nonsensical claims people make about the NT church. I think we see a lot of extrabiblical things in today’s churches (i.e. youth pastors, sunday school, etc…), but that doesn’t mean unbiblical.
Amos,
You said;
“I’m seeing things a little differently than you now…
Since I left the religious system in the early 90’s.”
So why did you leave?
Which system was it?
Are you part of local group of believers who worship together weekly?
If not, why not?
Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions.
a fellow member of His body,
mike
parsonsmike
Thank you for your considerate and respectful responses.
You mention two things you think @ August 25, 2015 at 8:05 pm…
“One, you are in, or rather from, a very legalistic background.
Two, you have been hurt and/or disillusioned by an elder/pastor or a group of them.”
And – You ask these questions @ August 25, 2015 at 8:12 pm…
1 – So why did you leave?
2 – Which system was it?
3 – Are you part of local group of believers who worship together weekly?
———
Those are good questions and assumptions. I’ve been involved with different systems. Mainline to Non-Denominational. A large mega congregation to small home groups. In looking back, All were very legalistic. And, I have been hurt and disillusioned by many pastor/elders. Even myself. I was ordained, in leadership.
I do fellowship now on a regular basis. Small groups, mostly seasoned saints, with a some newer believers, where all can and are expected to participate. One group of three men for over 15 years. Some others come and go, Monthly, 12-15 +, times a year, often in restaurants for 4-5 hours at a time, talking-bout-Jesus. Often, those near by hear and come over for prayer or to join the discussion. We are on the phone often. A weekly home group of 10 to 15 for over 8 years. Volunteering with ministries that work with the homeless and the hungry, off and on for over 20 years. Training folks how to work with those who have been discarded, giving out food and Jesus on vacant lots in tough neighborhoods, to those sleeping in card board boxes on side walks, sleeping in doorways of buildings, sleeping on park benches. In the rain, the snow, the winter. Lots of adventure.
The last couple of years, its been Daily, at Barnes & Nobles, lots of good coffee, blogging, and ministering to, praying with, and sharing Jesus with, believers, and pagans, and atheists, and muslims, and Catholics, and witches, Doctors from Pakistan, real Israelites from Israel, this lovely lady who is Jewish gave me a Leather bound copy of the Psalms in Hebrew. No, I can not read hebrew. Yeah, somehow I find lots of folks willing to talk about Jesus, willing to talk about the Bible.
John 3:8 ESV
The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound,
but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes.
So it is with **everyone who is born of the Spirit.**
Yes – It’s been an exciting time hangin-out-wit and following…
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
parsonsmike
Here’s some questions for you, and others, to think about.
Not really looking for any answers now.
These are just some questions I began to ask when I realized…
I did NOT meet these tough qualifications in 1 Tim, and Titus.
———
Why would someone “desire” and “except,” a position, pastor/elder/overseer…
They do NOT qualify for?
Why would someone remain in a position, pastor/elder/overseer…
They do NOT qualify for?
Why would God, through Paul, give such tough qualifications?
John Wylie
You ask @ August 25, 2015 at 4:01 pm…
“Say thank you for what?”
Well, You said to me apostles do NOT exist today…
Based on a list of qualifications for apostles in Acts 1:16-22.
I never heard of this list before so I checked it out. I noticed…
The apostles Paul and Barnabas do NOT fit these qualifications.
I concluded – This list was only used by the original 11…
When looking for a replacement for Judas.
Un-less you have another list of qualifications to show me.
And I thought you might like to thank me…
For bringing this information to you…
That Paul and Barnabas do NOT fit this list…
And now you can re-think your opinion and these qualifications.
Paul specific claims to be a witness to the resurrection in 1 Corinthians 15:8. “Last of all…he appeared also to me.” That says two things. Jesus appeared to Paul, and Paul was the last.
Amen Dave
Dave Miller
Thank you for this…
“1 Corinthians 15:8. “Last of all…he appeared also to me.”
That says two things.
Jesus appeared to Paul, and Paul was the last.
This is something I can refer to the next time I encounter
someone who says they are an apostle.
Amos,
Thank you for your reply.
Maybe you missed a post of mine, so I will repeat it:
Amos,
Blameless means that they keep short straws with God, and not perfect in obedience.
I think one of two things about, bur neither may not be true.
One, you are in, or rather from, a very legalistic background.
Two, you have been hurt and/or disillusioned by an elder/pastor or a group of them.
Now each individual church [at least the way SB does it] are the ones to determine how the candidate or candidates measure up to the varied qualifications before they call such a man an elder and/or pastor.
Its an imperfect process carried out by an imperfect people who through prayer rely on both the Scriptures and the Spirit to guide them to select an imperfect man.
How much is too much or too little is what that congregation must pray about and decide.
May you ever walk in His grace and mercy,
mike
Amos,
You seem like a deeply conscientious person: in examining yourself in the light of your own understanding, you realized you failed to live up to the standard you saw as true.
Now as to the specifics, of course I have no idea. So I cannot comment on that directly. Maybe you should have stepped down, maybe not.
Since you do have a background [at least then] that was legalistic, it is quite possible that your understanding was skewed somewhat.
In my church, we have elders and pastor/elders. None of these men are perfect. None measure up to the standard set by Jesus Himself, which is what the standards of the New T. are based on. But no person measures up.
This leads us to ask some things:
Why does the New T. set such high standards for offices that no one can meet?
Why have such offices at all, then?
The answer is that the church, each local body that is, needs under-shepherds to guide and direct the people in God’s ways as best they are able. AS BEST AS THEY ARE ABLE. So even as the church elects or appoints these less-than-perfect-men to led and guide them, these men have a duty to God and to others and to themselves to grow in grace and wisdom to seek to become what they are not yet.
This principle applies, not just to an elder, but to every born again believer. Each person has a part to play in the body, some more prominent than others, even as the Spirit leads and guides. Thus God gives us elders. But God does not give us perfectly qualified elders who have arrived at spiritual perfection.
Let me give an analogy that is of course imperfect. A squad or company of soldiers loses its commanding officer in the midst of the battle. Someone needs to step up, to make decisions, to lead and guide the men, so that they may continue to be an asset to the the country they serve. Someone has to do the job.
Would it be better that no one do it because no one was properly qualified? Of course not!
The local church is in the middle of enemy territory. The spiritual forces of evil and wickedness all everywhere. The people need direction, but none of them, much less all of them are perfectly mature spiritually. Look at the Corinthian church. They had all the gifts, all the blessings, but were in disarray. They were fighting over leadership. I am of Paul or Apollos or Jesus. The local church needs men they respect that can lead them as they work together to attain unity and maturity.
Or the forces of darkness will tear them apart. Like the enemy would tear that platoon apart if they had no leader.
But the good news is this. Despite the very true lack of perfect elders, the church will accomplish her goals because His Spirit is there to lead and guide both the elders and the people despite their weaknesses and lacks. After all His strength is made perfect in our weakness.
Finally, Amos, I appreciate your honesty and openness. I am not an elder or a pastor, nor have I gone to seminary. But God has given me gifts to use to edify the body. And He has given them gifts to edify me. And I think it quite possibly true, that you need to hear what I am going to tell you, and that is why you are on this thread:
You need to find a local body of believers, and also to encourage your present fellowship people to do as well. Because you and they have gifts the local church needs. And they have gifts you need. And when the body is out of sync with itself it hurts the whole body.
Its time Amos to find a church home.
John Wylie
Here are some questions about your #2.
“2) They had a prescribed mission. (Matthew 28:19, 20; Acts 1:8)”
I’m assuming the *they* refers to “…what N.T. churches looked like in the Bible?” Isn’t the “prescribed mission in Matthew 28:19, 20,” given to His 11 Disciples? I do NOT?see “church” mentioned here. Are there any verses saying the NT “church” also had this prescribed mission?
Mat 28:16-20 KJV
16 Then the eleven disciples went away into Galilee,
into a mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him: but some doubted.
18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying,
All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.
**19 Go ye therefore, **and teach all nations,** baptizing them
in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
**20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you:
and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.
Some modern versions, NKJV, have Mat 28:19 as…
19 Go therefore **and make disciples** of all the nations…
I tend to lean towards the KJV, “teach all nations,” because, In the Bible, I can NOT?find one of His Disciples who was recorded “making a Disciple of Jesus.” In the Bible, I can NOT?find one of His Disciples who taught potential Disciples how to become a Disciple. Or, Taught anyone how to make a Disciple of Jesus.
And, with all the instructions Paul gives in his epistles to The Ekklesia of God, The Church of God, Paul never mentions Disciples, or Making Disciples. Neither does any of the rest of the 11 Disciples in their epistles ever mention Disciples, or Making Disciples.
Now, I did try to – Go therefore **and make disciples** as I was taught, but…
Eventually, I had to admit – I never made a Disciple of Jesus.
I did make a few disciples of Amos. Or the denomination, movement, I was with.
Eventually, I had to admit, I could never figure out…
1 – How do you get a potential disciple to “Deny them self?”
2 – How do you get a potential disciple to “lose his life for Jesus’ sake?”
3 – How do you get a potential disciple to “Forsake All?”
Matthew 16:24-25 KJV
Then said Jesus unto **his disciples,** “IF” any man will come after me,
let him **deny himself,** and take up his cross, and follow me.
For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and
whosoever will *lose his life for my sake* shall find it.
Luke 14:33 KJV
So likewise, whosoever he be of you *that forsaketh NOT ALL that he hath,**
he can NOT be **my disciple.**
These few verses alone convicts me… I can NOT make a “Disciple of Jesus.”
That’s why I’m leaning towards the KJV. “teach all nations.”
Thanks again for asking…
“Could you please tell me where you disagree
with the contents of my four points? Thanks.”
Amos,
The word teach in Matthew 28:19 is the same word used in Matthew 27 as the word disciple [KJV].
so you ask:
Eventually, I had to admit, I could never figure out…
1 – How do you get a potential disciple to “Deny them self?”
2 – How do you get a potential disciple to “lose his life for Jesus’ sake?”
3 – How do you get a potential disciple to “Forsake All?”
You make disciples by teaching them truth and in leading by example. Which is of course how Jesus made disciples. The difference is that Jesus was making them disciples of Himself while we are not making them disciples of ourselves but of Him.
In making disciples of Him, it does not always mean higher to lower. Peers can disciple each other. The Head is over all the body, but each member of the body needs the other members to be complete. Thus the Spirit gives us pastors and teachers and other gifts to other members and thus to the entire body to use to edify each other and to grow us all into maturity in Christ.
parsonsmike
Thanks for the concern @ August 27, 2015 at 1:09 pm…
And taking the time to think and to write…
You end with…
“Its time Amos to find a church home.”
Well, NOT likely anytime soon. At least NOT with the “church” organizations you’re familiar with. And even with a very liberal view of overseers having “to meet specific qualifications,” and making excuses for those who do NOT?meet the qualifications, you did say @ August 25, 2015 at 10:32 am… some qualifications are “Hard and Fast.”
Here are some horrible statistics for pastors and their character…
From web-sites helping burned out pastors and their families.
“Into Thy Word.”
http://www.intothyword.org/articles_view.asp?articleid=36562&columnid=
30% had either been in an affair or a one-time encounter with a parishioner.
38% said they have had an extra-marital affair since beginning their ministry.
50% of pastors’ marriages will end in divorce.
57% said they would leave if they had a better place to go including secular work.
70% of pastors stated they were burned out.
…….. they battle depression beyond fatigue on a weekly and even a daily basis.
77% say they do “NOT” have a good marriage.
80% of pastors feel “unqualified” and discouraged in their role as pastor.
80% of pastors’ spouses wish their spouse would choose a different profession.
80% believe pastoral ministry has negatively affected their families.
…….. Many pastor’s children do not attend church now because
…….. of what the church has done to their parents.
———-
Come on, overseers are required to manage “well” their own households. “IF” someone does not manage “Well”, how will he care for God’s church? 1 Tim 3:4.
38% Polled admitted to an extra-marital affair. Did ALL admit it?
57% said they would leave if they had a better place to go..
77% say they do “NOT” have a good marriage.
80% the pastoral ministry has a negative affect on their family.
And these are the guys running the show, they and their families are a mess.
Seems the posibility of finding an appropriate “home church”
with a pastor/elder who qualifies for me is quite small.
Do you think these guys should have taken a closer look at The Qualifications in 1 Tim 3, and Titus? And when they admit they do NOT?qualify, They could have saved themselves a lot of headaches, Yes?
Why isn’t being a “Servant of God” good enough?
Why do they need the “Title” pastor – when they do NOT qualify?
Amos,
“Why do they need the “Title” pastor – when they do NOT qualify?”
I have already answered that question.
As to living the Christian life, you know that your life now is not about you.
Its not about you. It not about you.
Since your life is not about you, consider your family needs Your brothers and sisters need you and each other, especially since not one of them is qualified to be the shepherd as the N.T. outlines. But they still need someone tossup up, imperfect as they are.
Since your life is not about you, consider your responsibilities to the least of these. Consider how your family needs you to show them the love of Jesus.
I get it that you were hurt by the sin of an elder or pastor. But you as a sinner deserve hell. And yet you have received mercy and grace and love. Its time Amos to re-enter, to re-engage.
You came here, what to vent? Think about it.
Your choice of course.
But your life is no longer about you, so stop living as if it is.
May you continue to walk in obedience o our Lord and King,
mike
parsonsmike
You ask this question @ August 27, 2015 at 1:09 pm…
“Why does the New T. set such high standards for offices that no one can meet?”
Could the list of qualifications in 1 Tim 3, and titus, be
*A Test* of someone’s “Integrity?”
God does test and prove “His People” A Lot in the scriptures. Yes?
Deut 8:2 NKJV, Gen 22:1 NKJV, Psalm 66:10-12 NKJV, Psalm 26:2 NKJV. etc.
Why would someone assume the role of pastor/overseer…
And say they are a pastor/overseer…
If they know they do NOT qualify to be an pastor/overseer?”
Could it be a lack of “Integrity?”
What would you call someone, who called them self a pastor/overseer…
And they knew they did NOT qualify to be a pastor/overseer?
What would you call a medical Doctor, who said they were a Doctor..
And they knew they did NOT qualify to be a medical Doctor?
What would you call a Lawyer, who said they were a Lawyer…
And they knew they did NOT qualify to be a Lawyer?
Would you recommend a Doctor or a Lawyer to a friend?
If you knew they did NOT qualify to be a Doctor or a Lawyer?
Or, would you warn your friend? – They do NOT?qualify?
Would you take the time to warn the Doctor? The Lawyer?
That you know – They do NOT qualify?
Wouldn’t it be dangerous and expensive to trust and depend on…
A Doctor, or a Lawyer who does NOT qualify?
In my experience…
It is dangerous and expensive to trust and depend on
pastor/overseers who do NOT qualify.
Maybe that’s why “The Religious System” of today…
is in such a mess and folks are leaving in droves…
pastor/overseers – who do NOT qualify
The Bible warns us, a lot – About False apostles, many False prophets,
False teachers, False Christ’s’, False anointed one’s, etc..
To trust No man. To not trust in princes. Let no man deceive you.
And The list goes on…
And lot’s of scriptures about trusting and following Jesus.
Jer 50:6
“My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
**THEIR shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*
1 Pet 2:25
For ye were as *sheep going astray;*
BUT are now returned to the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
parsonsmike
You write @ August 29, 2015 at 11:30 am
The word teach in Matthew 28:19 is the same word used
in Matthew 27 as the word disciple [KJV].’
Yes, I agree… And…
The word “teach” in Matthew 28:19 is the same word used
in Acts 14:21 as the word “taught.” [KJV]
Acts 14:21 KJV
And when they had preached the gospel to that city,
and had “taught” many,
they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch,
———-
Some modern versions, NKJV, have Acts 14:21, as…
“And when they had *preached the gospel* to that city
and “made many disciples,”
they returned to Lystra, Iconium, and Antioch,”
But, this version does NOT?say how these “many disciples” were made.
*preached the gospel* is a good start… But…
In my experience – Hearing the gospel does NOT?produce Disciples.
Disciples willing to Deny self, Disciples willing to Forsake ALL.
———
Have you *preached the gospel* to that city, to individuals…
And “made many disciples?”
———-
If that is the way it’s done? WE, His Sheep, His Disciples…
Would NOT need all these books about “How to make a Disciple.”
Would NOT need all these conferences about “How to make a Disciple.”
———–
And, if you believe, and are correct, Mat 28:19-20, is about Go… Make Disciples…
Then Jesus tells His Disciples, How to – Go… Make Disciples… Yes?
Mat 28:19-20 NKJV
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations…
**teaching them to “observe” ALL things that I have commanded you** (His Disciples)
Sounds simple, reasonable, read the four Gospels, even make a list…
Then teach potential Disciples, ALL things, Jesus DID, and taught, His Disciples… Yes?
But, I’ve noticed, most of today’s pastor/leader/reverends, when making Disciples…
Do NOT?do, Do NOT teach, what Jesus did and taught His Disciples.
Maybe WE, His Ekklesia, His Called Out Ones, His Servants, should follow Jesus?
Here are just two things Jesus taught His Disciples that many overlook…
1 – NOT to be called teacher for you have “ONE” teacher, Christ. Mt 23:8 NKJV
…. Who will teach potential Disciples, NOT to be called teacher? Like Jesus did?
2 – NOT to be called leader for you have “ONE” leader, Christ, Mt 23:10 NASB
…. Who will teach potential Disciples, NOT to be called leader? Like Jesus did?
…. And, in the Bible, His Disciples must have believed Jesus…
…. Because, NOT one of His Disciples called them self leader…
Amos,
Thanks for your reply.
You don’t seem to be getting it. Maybe thats due to my inability to explain.
So let me try again, and I’ll go through point by point as to your last post.
>>>>>>>Could the list of qualifications in 1 Tim 3, and titus, be
*A Test* of someone’s “Integrity?”
God does test and prove “His People” A Lot in the scriptures. Yes?
Deut 8:2 NKJV, Gen 22:1 NKJV, Psalm 66:10-12 NKJV, Psalm 26:2 NKJV. etc.<<<<<<<<>>>>Why would someone assume the role of pastor/overseer…
And say they are a pastor/overseer…
If they know they do NOT qualify to be an pastor/overseer?”
Could it be a lack of “Integrity?”<<<<<<<<<>>>>>What would you call someone, who called them self a pastor/overseer…
And they knew they did NOT qualify to be a pastor/overseer?<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>What would you call a medical Doctor, who said they were a Doctor..
And they knew they did NOT qualify to be a medical Doctor?
What would you call a Lawyer, who said they were a Lawyer…
And they knew they did NOT qualify to be a Lawyer?<<<<<<<>>>>>Would you recommend a Doctor or a Lawyer to a friend?
If you knew they did NOT qualify to be a Doctor or a Lawyer?
Or, would you warn your friend? – They do NOT?qualify?
Would you take the time to warn the Doctor? The Lawyer?
That you know – They do NOT qualify?<<<<<<<<<>>>Wouldn’t it be dangerous and expensive to trust and depend on…
A Doctor, or a Lawyer who does NOT qualify?<<<<<>>>>>In my experience…
It is dangerous and expensive to trust and depend on
pastor/overseers who do NOT qualify.<<<<<<>>>>>Maybe that’s why “The Religious System” of today…
is in such a mess and folks are leaving in droves…
pastor/overseers – who do NOT qualify<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>The Bible warns us, a lot – About False apostles, many False prophets,
False teachers, False Christ’s’, False anointed one’s, etc..
To trust No man. To not trust in princes. Let no man deceive you.
And The list goes on…<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>And lot’s of scriptures about trusting and following Jesus.<<<<<
Yep. That is what I am asking you to do. Trust Jesus and get a pastor.
Eph. 4: 11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ;
Jer. 3:15 “Then I will give you shepherds after My own heart, who will feed you on knowledge and understanding.
Or do you think so highly of yourself that you can pick and choose which Scriptures apply?
Amos,
Obviously my inability to post shows in the above post.
Forgive me for the confused mess. It must have to do with the arrow symbols I used to set off your words as opposed to my replies.
Will post a better reply later today.
mike
Mike
No need to redo your post.
I have a polish uncle that taught me everything I know…
I can actually read and understand your comment…
Oy Vey!!!
Mike
And thanks for the respectful conversation…
Then they that feared the LORD spake often one to another:
and the LORD hearkened, and heard it,
and a book of remembrance was written before him
for them that feared the LORD,
and that thought upon his name.
Malachi 3:16
Mike
You ask…
“Or do you think so highly of yourself that you can pick and choose which Scriptures apply?”
Actually, when I was in The Religious System, that’s what I did…
My then, pastor/leader/reverends taught me by example how to do that…
When I searched on my own I found some… errr… stuff…
They did NOT?like me finding.
Here are some verses you’re NOT likely to hear from “The Pulpit.” 😉
The word “Pastors” is eight times in Jeremiah…
Six times God is NOT?happy…
Jeremiah 2:8 KJV
…”The Pastors” also transgressed against me,
and the prophets prophesied by Baal,
and walked after things that do not profit.
Jeremiah 10:21 KJV
For ”The Pastors” are become brutish, ( beastly, carnal )
and have not sought the LORD: therefore they shall not prosper,
and all their flocks shall be scattered.
Jeremiah 12:10 KJV
Many “Pastors” have destroyed my vineyard,
they have trodden my portion under foot,
they have made my pleasant portion a desolate wilderness.
Jeremiah 22:22 KJV
The *wind shall eat up all “Thy Pastors,”
(*wind = ruwach = breath, mind, spirit.)
and thy lovers shall go into captivity:
surely then shalt thou be ashamed
and confounded for all thy wickedness.
Jeremiah 23:1 KJV
Woe be unto ”The Pastors” that destroy
and scatter the sheep of my pasture!
Jeremiah 23:2 KJV
…thus saith the LORD God of Israel
against ”The Pastors” that feed my people;
Ye have scattered my flock, and driven them away,
and have not visited them: behold,
**I will visit upon you the evil of your doings,**
saith the LORD.
Mike 2 verses about pastors – Amos 6 verses. 🙂
Mike
Hooray – A Bible verse shoot-out. 😉
Here’s a favorite from Jeremiah about shepherds.
Jer 50:6 KJV
“My people” hath been “lost sheep:”
**THEIR shepherds** have caused them to *go astray,*
My then shepherds taught me “The Lost” are the unbelievers…
Looks like, in the Bible, ”The Lost” are also God’s Sheep.
Led astray by “THEIR” shepherds. Oy Vey!!!
And Jesus, calls Him self “The “ONE” Shepherd.”
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
——
Here’s a few verses about “leaders.”
First of all, it was after I left “The Religious System” of today, tore up my papers, and walked away from “Church Leadership,” that I realized Isaiah, had prophesied about my “Leadership skills.” And the “Leadership skills” of the rest of todays “Church Leaders.” And, Jesus showed me I was a blind leader. No really… 😉
Isa 3:12 KJV
…O my people, *they which lead thee* cause thee to err,
and destroy the way of thy paths.
Isa 9:16 KJV
For *the leaders* of this people cause them to err;
and they that are led of them are destroyed.
——–
Mt 15:14 KJV
Let them alone: they be blind leaders of the blind.
And if the blind lead the blind, both shall fall into the ditch.
Some legacy todays “Church Leaders” are creating for themselves…
Is “church leaders” a term found in the Bible?
Mike – I already have a pastor – but thanks anyway…
I’m in agreement with King David…
The Lord is my Shepherd. 🙂
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
Mike
You quote Eph 4:11, and pastors there. I’m sure you know the Greek word is poimen and means shepherd. Poimen is 18 times in the NT, NEVER once as a “Title” for one of His Disciples. The only “ONE” in the Bible with the “Title” shepherd is Jesus.
Seems to me, In the Bible, shepherds are NOTHING like todays pastor/leader/reverend. Any shepherds given by God – Were Anonymous – NOT known or revealed. I mean…
Can you name one of His Disciples, or anyone, who called them self a shepherd?
Or a pastor? Or a leader? Or a reverend? 😉
In The Bible – Can you find – Any…
Shepherds who had “Titles” – “Pastor/Leader/Reverend?”
Shepherds who called themselves – “Pastor/Leader/Reverend?”
Shepherds who promoted themselves – as a “Special Clergy Class?”
Shepherds who promoted *His Sheep* as lesser “Lay people?”
In The Bible – Can you find – Any…
Shepherds who promoted themselves as – “Leaders?”
Shepherds who promoted themselves as – “Church Leaders?”
Shepherds who promoted themselves as – “Spiritual Leaders?”
Shepherds who promoted themselves as – “Christian Leaders?”
Shepherds who promoted themselves as – “Leaders to be Obeyed?”
In The Bible – Can you find – Any…
Shepherds who promoted themselves as – “Spiritual Authority?”
Shepherds who promoted themselves as – “God Ordained Authority?”
Shepherds who separated from the flock, wearing different, special, clothes?
Shepherds who were – Hired and Fired – by congregations?
Shepherds who would move from one congregation to another?
What’s up with that?
Shepherds who would “Exercise Authority” over another Disciple?
Shepherds who had their own private parking space. 🙂
Well, you get the drift…
NOT much of what todays shepherd/leader/reverends gets paid for or does…
Is In The Bible… 😉
In 1 Peter 5, Peter referred to himself as an elder and he said that the elders were to oversee and shepherd (pastor) the flock of God. Peter was not anonymous.
He also said that when the Chief Shepherd (Jesus)appeared in the future that these elders who shepherded and oversaw the flock would receive a crown of life. This tells us that the Chief Shepherd (Jesus) still uses human shepherds in His service and will do so until He returns.
John Wylie
Yes, 1 Pet 5:2, has the Greek – poimaino. And some versions say “shepherd the flock.”
If I remember correctly “poimaino” is a verb. It’s what elders do, NOT what they are.
And, the translation of “poimaino” depends on which Bible version you use. 😉
1 Pet 5:2 KJV – Feed the flock of God which is among you…
1 Pet 5:2 RSV – Tend the flock of God…
1 Pet 5:2 NLT – Care for the flock…
And, there is nothing in 1 Pet 5, about the “Title/Position” we see for todays
“pastor/leader/reverend.” Who tend to place that “Title” everywhere. Yes?
——-
In the Bible – Can you name…
One of His Disciples who called them self shepherd? leader? reverend?
One of His Disciples who called another Disciple shepherd/leader/reverend?
One of His Disciples who accepted the “Title/Position” shepherd/leader/reverend?
One of His Disciples who was “Hired or Fired” as a shepherd/leader/reverend?
———
Job 32:21-22 KJV
Let me not, I pray you, accept any man’s person,
neither let me give “Flattering Titles” unto man.
For I know not to give “FlatteringTitles;”
in so doing my maker would soon take me away.
——
Seems, the only “ONE” in the Bible who called them self Shepherd is….
Seems, the only “ONE” in the Bible who had the “Title” Shepherd is….
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
————-
And Jesus called Himself “The Good Shepherd.” The “ONE” Shepherd.
John 10:11 and 16 KJV
I am the good shepherd:
the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep…
…And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
It doesn’t matter if the gave themselves that title or not. The fact remains that the Chief Shepherd (Jesus) uses human shepherds in His church.
John,
Maybe he’s right – perhaps we pastors/elders should start calling ourselves “angels” – as this with the apostle John identified them as when he penned letters to the churches in Revelation. 🙂
A. Amos, please tell me where you think the modern day Baptist/evangelical church is wrong. Just spell it out brother and tell me what you’d do if you were starting a local church.
Amos,
Your legalist background is showing.
You are disputing over parsed words and titles as if such things really mattered as to the actual duties of the men we speak about.
And why is this?
It seems obvious to me.
You prefer to remain ‘independent’ of a organized congregation and are seeking justify your rebellious stance.
From what you have posted, I see a few things:
1] You came to this blog with disruption in mind.
For you are not even speaking to the Biblical points that have been raised that stand against you.
Despite claiming to be shepherded by Jesus, you are in rebellion to His established order. Which leads to …
2] Even as you do not desire to submit to His order, you also do not wish to submit to His Word.
3] Your ‘case’ is weak, relying on a repeated mantra that is empty.
No one declares that every pastor or elder is godly and that none are false.
But your position is as bad on the one side as if the people here were declaring the above. You are radically wrong.
Likewise, you are Biblically wrong.
Amos, I can understand that you have a bad experience with a pastor and/or elders. But the spiritual immaturity you are displaying which is demonstrated by your lack understanding of the NT as it relates to church ecclesiology combined with the arrogance your writing portrays [so it seems to me] only reinforces the idea that you need a church home to grow and mature, and to learn obedience and humility.
I will keep you in my prayers. I know others who are good people, who claim to be saved, but who also stay away [for various reasons] who lack the joy one can get when obeying the Lord as to corporate worship.
May His Spirit move you to obedience,
mike
3]
Mike – You say, “I will keep you in my prayers.”
Thank you for your prayers. Always appreciated.
And, I’ll pray for you…
Psalm 23:1-6.
The LORD Jesus is Mike’s Shepherd;
And, Mike shall not want. For anything…
The Lord God Almighty makes Mike to lie down in green pastures:
And rest in Him…
Jesus, the Prince of Peace leads Mike beside the still waters.
In His Presence, Filled with His Joy, and His Peace.
The Lord our Healer restores Mike’s soul:
The Lord heals Mike’s heart,
The Holy Spirit leads Mike in the paths of righteousness
for His name’s sake.
Yea, though Mike walks through the valley of the shadow of death,
Mike will fear NO evil:
Because, You, the God of all comfort, is with Mike,
Always in ALL ways…
Your rod and Your staff they comfort Mike.
With your Love, your acceptance, appreciation, and respect for Mike.
You prepare a table before Mike in the presence of his enemies:
Your enemies. Enemies of Love.
You anoint Mike’s head with oil;
Mike is a King and a Priest unto you Lord, an Ambassador of Love.
Mike’s cup is truly overflowing. With your Love.
Surely goodness and mercy shall follow Mike all the days of his life:
And Mike will dwell in the house of the LORD for ever.
Be blessed Mike
And continue to be a blessing…
Amos, thank you for your prayers.
John Wylie
You asked me @ August 25, 2015 at 5:00 pm, where I disagree with your 4 points. You might have missed some thoughts about your #2 @ August 29, 2015 at 9:08 am. Or, I might have missed your reply to my questions for your #2.
John Wylie
Here are some questions and thoughts about your #3.
“3) They had ordinances given to them to observe
with instructions on how they were to be observed.”
(Matthew 28:19, 20; 1 Cor. 11:23-34)”
Mat 28:19-20 NKJV
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations…
…**teaching them to “observe” ALL things that I have commanded you**…
Sounds simple, reasonable, read the four Gospels, even make a list…
Then teach potential Disciples, what Jesus DID, and taught, His Disciples… Yes?
Here are just two things Jesus taught His Disciples…
1 – NOT to be called teacher for you have “ONE” teacher, Christ. Mt 23:8 NKJV
…. Who will teach potential Disciples, NOT to be called teacher? Like Jesus did?
2 – NOT to be called leader for you have “ONE” leader, Christ, Mt 23:10 NASB
…. Who will teach potential Disciples, NOT to be called leader? Like Jesus did?
…. And, His disciples must have believed Jesus, because…
…. NOT one of His Disciples called them self leader…
When I was studying to become a leader, and to be known as a leader…
When I was in leadership and trying to make Disciples of Jesus…
I overlooked these commands of Jesus to His Disciples…
How could I teach potential Disciples NOT to be called Leader?
When I was calling myself Leader?
Haven’t you ever wondered? Why? In the Bible?
NOT one of His Disciples ever called themself Leader?
NOT one of His Disciples ever called another Disciple Leader?
NOT one of His Disciples ever called another Disciple Servant/Leader?
In the Bible, ALL of “His Disciples” called themselves “Servants.” 😉
Mat 23:10-12 NASB – New American Standard Bible
Do NOT be called leaders; for “ONE” is your Leader, that is, Christ.
But the greatest among you shall be your “Servant”.
Whoever exalts himself shall be humbled;
and whoever humbles himself shall be exalted.
The Message – Mat 23:10-12.
And don’t let people maneuver you into taking charge of them.
There is only “ONE” Life-Leader for you and them—Christ.
**Do you want to stand out? – Then step down. – Be a Servant.**
If you puff yourself up, you’ll get the wind knocked out of you.
But if you’re content to simply be yourself, your life will count for plenty.
When teaching a potential Disciple of Jesus, aren’t WE, His Disciples, to be… **teaching them to “observe” ALL things that Jesus commanded His Disciples?**
1 – NOT to be called teacher for there is “ONE” teacher? Christ?
2 – NOT to be called leader for you have “ONE” leader? Christ?
Amos,
you said:
“Here are just two things Jesus taught His Disciples…
1 – NOT to be called teacher for you have “ONE” teacher, Christ. Mt 23:8 NKJV……. Who will teach potential Disciples, NOT to be called teacher? Like Jesus did?”
Mathew 23:8 doesn’t say teacher, it says rabbi.
But if you look at it in context, the Lord is talking about the attitude one takes both as a teacher/leader and student/listener.
As brothers we are to look and trust first and foremost in the Lord Himself, as our ultimate leader and teacher. Those who seek to lord over the flock are in error. [Maybe that is part of the sour experience you had.] How do we know this? Because the Lord Himself tells us in Ephesians 4:
11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fullness of Christ.
Amos, why are you rejecting the Chief Shepherd words?
Why are you arguing against the master and Rabbi?
And furthermore, Ephesians tells us what happens with without teacher and pastors:
As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming; 15 but speaking the truth in love, we are to grow up in all aspects into Him who is the head, even Christ, 16 from whom the whole body, being fitted and held together by what every joint supplies, according to the proper working of each individual part, causes the growth of the body for the building up of itself in love.
You Amos, are being tossed here and there, even as your mishandling of God’s Word provides proof.
Your doctrines scheme to pit the Word of God against itself and you are seeking to use it against His Church, which is His Body, which means against Christ, the Head.
Your thinking is perverted.
If you are His servant, repent and seek out a godly Bible preaching church.
May He have mercy on you and much grace,
mike
Mike – Thanks for the correction.
Mat 23:8 NKJV, does say Rabbi.
“But you, (His Disciples) do not be called ‘Rabbi’;
for One is your Teacher, the Christ,
and you are all brethren.”
I was probably thinking how the Jews addressed their teachers.
Rabbi in Thayers is Greek – “rhabbi” – hrab-bee’ and means…
1) my great one, my honourable sir
2) Rabbi, a title used by the Jews to address their teachers
And Teacher in Mat 23:8 NKJV, is “kathegetes” and means…
1) a guide
2) a master, teacher.
And, in Mat 23:8 NKJV, Jesus, teaches His disciples…
There is “ONE” teacher, the Christ.
Amos,
I have a teacher in Sunday School. He is also an elder. But I neither call him teacher or elder. I call him Gordon.
A rabbi is one who gathers disciples for himself. Hence we are disciples of the great and honorable Jesus. I am not a disciple of Gordon’s, though he teaches me. He has a commission from both God and the church to represent Jesus and His Word.
The word teacher is a noun that describes someone who teaches. You are seeking to teach here on this post. And I and John and others are seeking to teach you. There is nothing wrong Biblically in being a teacher.
Likewise a pastor is one who shepherds. He is to guide and care for the flock and to give comfort and aid to those in need or who are straying. There is nothing wrong with being a pastor or pastoring.
Furthermore there is nothing wrong with saying that Charles is my pastor and Gordon is my teacher.
And now that you have interacted with ONE part of the Scripture I brought up. Why don’t you interact with the rest?
Or will you continue to pick and choose which ones you wish to apply to yourself?
Amos,
And now that you have interacted with ONE part of the Scripture I brought up. Why don’t you interact with the rest?
Or will you continue to pick and choose which ones you wish to apply to yourself?
Because your one trick dog and pony show is wearing kind of thin, you know…
I’m begging you Amos, what does your new church look like? [ You’ve gathered a group of believers/unbelievers who wish to come together and study Scripture and encourage each other.] How is it lead?
seneca
“How is it lead?”
By “the Spirit of God.” By “Jesus, the “ONE” leader.”
By Jesus, who said, “My sheep – Hear MY Voice and follow me.”
By “The LORD thy God.” Jehovah thy Elohim.
Rom 8:14
For as many as are “led” by the Spirit of God,
they are the sons of God.
Gal 5:18
But if ye be “led” of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
Isa 48:17
Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel;
I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit,
which “leadeth thee” by the way that thou shouldest go.
1 Cor 14:26
How is it then, brethren? when ye come together,
**every one of you**
hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, (teaching)
hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation.
Let all things be done unto edifying.
Well, there’s lots more…
But you get the drift of my thinkin these days.
If you ever get the chance to attend a meeting…
“Led” by the Spirit of God… Jehovah thy Elohim…
It’s a wonderful experience…
Thanks for asking…
seneca griggs
You write @ August 30, 2015 at 12:31 pm…
“A. Amos, please tell me where you think the modern day Baptist/evangelical church is wrong.”
“Wrong” is a word I try NOT to use. My beliefs have changed over the years.
I wrote this to John Wylie @ August 27, 2015 at 10:36 am…
——–
You (John) also ask…
“Could you please tell me where you disagree
with the contents of my four points? Thanks.”
Okay… Thank you for the invite…
And I’ll also give you some more of the questions I have.
But, for future reference…
Just because I dis-agree doesn’t mean you are wrong or false.
We now have thousands of denominations in Christiandumb.
And all dis-agree bout sumptin…
For a long time I relied on the traditions of the groups I belonged to.
And did not rely on what is written in the Bible.”
———-
seneca – Jesus warned WE, His Ekklesia, His Church, His Disciples…
That WE, His Sheep, can “Make Void God’s Word” with our tradtions.
Mark 7:13
NLT – you “cancel” the word of God in order to hand down your own tradition.
KJV – Making the word of God of “none effect” through your tradition…
ASV – Making “void” the word of God by your tradition…
NIV – Thus you “nullify” the word of God by your tradition…
Eventally, I had to admit…
I was teaching “the traditions of the groups” I belonged to.
And did not rely on, or teach, what is written in the Bible.
Thanks for asking…
Amos, you gather a group of people together, there WILL BE a leader, sooner or later. You cannot be that naive to think there will be no leader other than the Spirit. A leader will either be appointed, or they will self appoint.
But let us not be naive here; there will be a person, or small group of persons, that ultimately leads.
The Holy Spirit does a lot of things but he doesn’t send out e-mails announcing the next get together.
seneca
Naive – Dictionary – lack of experience, wisdom, or judgment:
Seems to me, from your statement…
“…gather a group of people together, there WILL BE a leader..”
That you might have a “lack of experience, wisdom, or judgment.”
With meeting together with a group of His Disciples…
Disciples who understand Jesus taught His Disciples…
NOT to be called “Leader.” For you have “ONE” leader.
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
And, this group of His Disciples who asemble together Also knows…
In the Bible, NOT one of His Disciples called themself leader.
And they have a desire to obey Jesus, and be like one of His Disciples.
So, now, His Disciples…
Taught and trained by Jesus, The Father, the Holy Spirit…
NO longer have a desire to be a leader, or be known as a leader.
And actually look forward to having the Holy Spirit do the leading.
Because, once you experience the presence of God, leading…
You realize, Mere Fallible Human Leaders are quite inferior, and boring.
Jer 22:22 KJV
The *wind (Spirit) shall eat up all “Thy Pastors…”
And, this group of His Diciples actually know that, Jesus, as man,
Humbled Himself – Made Himself of NO reputation…
And took on the form of a “Servant.” Phil2:7-8.
This Jesus, who came to serve and NOT be served.
Now – In my experience…
“…gather a group of His Disciples together, there WILL BE “Servants.”
And…
“The “ONE” Leader” “The “ONE” Teacher” “The “ONE” Shepherd”
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
seneca
Have you considered the ANT?
The ANT is small and insignificant – Or is it?
Proverbs 6:6-8 KJV
6 – Go to the ant, thou sluggard; consider her ways, and be wise:
7 – **Which having **no guide, **overseer, or **ruler,
8 – Provideth her meat in the summer,
and gathereth her food in the harvest.
Guide – 07101 qatsiyn
KJV – ruler 4, prince 4, captain 3, guide 1; 12
Thayers – chief, ruler, commander, dictator, ruler
Overseer – 07860 shoter {sho-tare’}
KJV – officers 23, ruler 1, overseer 1; 25
Thayers – official, officer.
Ruler – 04910 mashal {maw-shal’}
KJV – rule 38, ruler 19, reign 8, dominion 7, governor 4,
Thayers – to rule, have dominion, reign, cause to rule,
————-
And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold:
them also I must bring, and they shall “hear My voice; “
and there shall be “ONE” fold, and “ONE” shepherd.
John 10:16
If not now? – When?
One Voice – One Fold – One Shepherd – One Leader
{{{{{{ Jesus }}}}}}
Mike
You mention teachers in Eph 4:11 @ August 31, 2015 at 1:52 pm…
What are these teachers supposed to teach?
How are they, “equipping of the saints for the work of service?”
What did Jesus teach His Disciples?
How did Jesus equip His Disciples? When He sent them out?
What about 1 – Jesus, 2 – John,3 – Peter, 4 – Paul, teaching about God teaching All?
1) Jesus taught “His Disciples” to teach “What” He taught them.
Mat 28:19:20 NIV
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations…
**teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you.**
Jesus, “The Word of God,” taught “His Disciples”
1 – NOT to be called rabbi for you have “ONE” teacher, Christ. Mt 23:8
2 – NOT to be called leader for you have “ONE” leader, Christ, Mt 23:10
3 – ALL shall be taught of God. Jn 6:45
4 – ALL things, shall be taught you by the Holy Spirit, God. Jn 14:26
5 – ALL truth, will come as the Spirit of truth guides and leads. Jn 16:13
6 – Jesus, as man, does nothing of himself, and is taught of God. Jn 8:28
7 – Peter, knowing Jesus was the Christ, the Son of the living God,
received *the revelation* from *Father God,* and NOT from man. Mt 16:17
NOT from Jesus as man. Jesus gave “All” the glory, all the credit to God.
Jesus, taught *The ”ONE” Teacher* is – Christ – Holy Spirit – Father – God.
I read the scriptures before I was saved – didn’t mean much.
Then God opened my spiritual eyes…
Now I have a hunger to know Christ, and learn from Him.
2) John the apostle, a “Disciple of Christ” taught what Jesus taught.
1 – ALL know, discern, all things. From the anointing. In You. 1 Jn 2:20
2 – You need NOT any man teach you. Some will seduce you. 1 Jn 2:26-27
3 – ALL things, are taught to you by the anointing. In You.1 Jn 2:27
3) Paul the apostle, a “Disciple of Christ” taught what Jesus taught.
1- The gospel, NOT taught to me by man, but by revelation. Gal 1:11-12
2 – I conferred NOT with flesh and blood. Gal 1:16
3 – You have heard Jesus, and have been taught by Jesus. Eph 4:21
4 – You are taught by God to love one another. 1 Thes 4:9
5 – When together, all can teach, all can get revelation. 1 Cor 14:26
6 – Be led by the Spirit of God, and be a son of God. Rm 8:14
“What” were the “teachers” Paul talked about supposed to teach?
When Paul said, and some **shepherds and teachers**
for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry,
for the edifying of the body of Christ. Eph 4:11
I don’t see Paul having any thoughts about once a week…
Pastors – in Pulpits – Preaching – to People – in Pews.
Then a week goes by and most has been forgotten. If even heard. 😉
Is that “How” Jesus taught? Wasn’t He “daily” with “His Disciples?”
Give a man a fish and he eats for a day.
Teach a man to fish and he eats daily, for life.
Pastor/teachers in pulpits “create” people dependant on them.
The Pastor/Teacher makes a name for himself, a reputation, BUT…
**Humans now looks to humans** for learning, for revelation, and NOT to Jesus. 🙁
Teach a man to hear from Jesus, learn from Jesus, revelation from Jesus…
You have, “Disciples of Christ.” Learners of Christ. Ekklesia of Christ.
Now Jesus can feed, lead, and teach them “daily,” forever… Eternity…
Jesus, as man, learned directly from God. – Jn 8:28
Peter learned directly from God. – Mt 16:17
Paul learned directly from God. Ga 1:11-12, Ga 1:16,
Jesus taught, God will teach you. – Jn 6:45, Jn 14:26, Jn 16:13
John taught, God will teach you. – 1 Jn 2:20-27
Paul taught, God will teach you. – Eph 4:21, 1 Thes 4:9, 1 Cor 14:26.
“What” were the “teachers” Paul talked about supposed to teach?
“What’ were the “elders” who were to teach supposed to teach?
Did they just give the people already chewed on fish? Their revelation?
The – I believes – of a denomination? What they learned in seminary?
The five points of Calvin? Matthew Henry’s Commentary?
Sermons off the internet?
Or, did they teach, get it yourself from Jesus? And how to get it?
And they did nothing of themselves but what they saw the Father doing?
Like Jesus, Peter, and Paul?
If you’re being equipped for the ministry?
Wouldn’t it be important to, hear and learn from Jesus, directly, NOW?
Wouldn’t it be important to, be led by the Spirit of God, directly, NOW?
If and when using scripture “His Disciples” might have quoted the OT.
I (God) will instruct thee and teach thee in the way which thou shalt go:
I (God) will guide thee with mine eye.
Psalms 32:8
Out of heaven he (God) made thee to **hear His voice,**
that he (God) might instruct thee:
Deuteronomy 4:36
Trust in the LORD (God) with all thine heart;
and lean not unto thine own understanding.
In all thy ways acknowledge him, (God)
and HE (God) shall direct thy paths.
Proverbs 3:5-6
A man’s heart deviseth his way: but the LORD (God) directeth his steps.
Proverbs 16:9
…the meek will he (God) teach his way.
Psalms 25:9
…he (God) will teach us of his ways, and will walk in his (God’s) paths…
Isaiah 2:3
“What” did Jesus teach?
“God” will teach you….
Isn’t that what “WE,” His Disciples, are to teach?
Amos,
I have read enough from you to grasp that your bias against truth and against the Body of Christ doesn’t warrant any more of my time.
You are now simply being divisive with your words, and arguing inanely.
You seem to not grasp either the context or intent of plainly spoken passages.
I pray that you will be no longer a pawn of Satan,
mike
Mike
Thanks for the conversation.
What is popular is NOT always “Truth.”
What is “Truth” is NOT always popular.
A. Amos, Here is what is popular from the Holy Spirit’s point of view….
“Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter the sanctuary by the blood of Jesus, by the fresh and living way that he inaugurated for us through the curtain, that is, through his flesh, and since we have a great priest over the house of God, let us draw near with a sincere heart in the assurance that faith brings, because we have had our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed in pure water. And let us hold unwaveringly to the hope that we confess, for the one who made the promise is trustworthy. And let us take thought of how to spur one another on to love and good works, not abandoning our own meetings, as some are in the habit of doing, but encouraging each other, and even more so because you see the day drawing near.”
The Holy Spirit finds it unpopular for any believer to forsake the assembly, which is in essence forsaking the ones that He has given gifts, for the edification of the body of Christ. One thing is absolutely certain….it “is” popular to the Holy Spirit that the church assemble and edify one another, giving all praise and glory to God.
Hi Chris
I agree fully with your excellent comment.
————
And I would like to apologize for NOT answering some of your other comments. I was reading through the comments the other day and noticed a couple of yours I did not answer. No particular reason other than I’ve been writing and answerng lots of comments. Oy Vey!!!