Strider is an IMB Missionary who has served 20 years in Middle Earth among Muslim peoples.
I believe that God is not only on His throne but moving in the world today in ways that have never been seen before. Many people long for the ‘good ol’ days’. Years ago we even took to calling ourselves ‘New Testament Churches’ implying that we were meeting and believing just like the original first century Church. There are some very valuable lessons to be learned by looking back at what God has done among us through the centuries. We stand on the shoulders of giants for sure! But far from longing for the past I am very excited about the future. From my little outpost here in Middle Earth I have seen God do amazing things around the world and I believe that we have been and will continue to be privileged to see some of the greatest moves of God in human history.
Let’s look at the big picture. For 1700 years after Pentecost God moved mightily in Europe and America. We know that the Nestorians went East to China but for the most part the Church did not do much to fulfill the Great Commission. I am aware of some really amazing heroes of the faith who were exceptions to the rule. I also am aware that I am not anyone’s judge. Perhaps this was all just God’s timing. Perhaps the Church was just not ready to move to the ends of the earth as quickly as we might wish they could have. At any rate- or at least at the rate we are going- things really changed about 200 years ago with William Carey and the Modern Missions Movement. We Southern Baptist were involved early on in getting busy with the work of the Gospel going to the Nations. Personally, in spite of lots of negative stuff surrounding our beginnings, I am proud that our heritage is a Great Commission heritage. We went to Brazil, China, Nigeria, later Indonesia and that is where we concentrated our work for many years. As we moved into the post-World War Two phase of our journey God shut one big door- China- and opened up many other doors that we boldly walked through. The cost was incredible but the returns on investment were astounding! Missionaries were funded by the poor of the rural south to pack their meager belongings in coffins to go to places like West Africa where they could hope to share Christ for a few years before dying of some tropical disease. Millions came to faith. By 1976 Southern Baptists decided it was time to dream even bigger. We passed Bold Mission Thrust at the convention and dared to believe that we could have 5000 missionaries in 125 countries by the year 2000. We dared to believe that we could see over 10,000 volunteers on overseas mission trips. We believed we could be the generation to see the Gospel get to the ends of the earth. We achieved every goal ahead of schedule and while we were not looking God rewarded our small steps of faith in world-changing ways.
I pity the country that tries to keep the Gospel out. I really do. We could not go to the Soviet Union so God shut it down. Now the Church has grown in every republic of the former USSR in outrageous ways! Kazakhs from 2 believers to 30,000, Uzbeks to over 15,000, Kirgiz to over 40,000, Tajiks to more than 3000, and the Turkmen church continues to grow in spite of horrific Government opposition. Most of you know the Chinese story. We lost our missionary presence in 1950 with perhaps 100,000 believers and today we think there may be as many as 250 million Chinese believers. We could not get into some parts of Indonesia, the Maldives, southern India and God thumped the ocean floor in 2004 and every one of those places have now been impacted by the Gospel- some in huge ways. Afghanistan was 20 million people locked in an eternal civil war with no access to the Gospel. 9/11 happened and now more than 10,000 Afghans worship our savior in what is still one of the darkest places on earth. I just finished the book Too Many to Jail which estimates that there are more than 380,000 Iranian believers meeting in small persecuted house churches. The massive numbers of African believers are well documented and I have had the privilege of working with a number of missionaries from South America. We used to go to them now they are sending in big ways. And let’s face it, I could continue this list for two more pages and not come close to describing what God has done in just the last 20 years. God is calling to Himself massive numbers of Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Animists, and a whole host of others.
This is unprecedented and most of you don’t know much about this and too many of you are not that interested. You are in the middle of a confusing election and what is happening in our beloved America is heartbreaking. I get that. How are we going to see God move in America like He is moving in the rest of the world? We need revival. We pray for revival. When will it come?
It will come when God’s two great commandments are OUR two great commandments. We must love the Lord our God with all our heart, mind, soul, and strength and our neighbor as ourselves. Many of you reading this believe that you are living this reality already. From my seat here in Middle Earth I see the American Church differently. Here is a short list of things we must correct in order to align ourselves with what God is doing in the world.
- The health/wealth non-Gospel must die. I know what you are thinking, ‘But Strider, have we not been faithful to blast Joel Osteen at every opportunity?’ Yes, you have – I admit to some of that as well- but it is not enough. We cannot preach against prosperity gospel nonsense while making every decision based on how it impacts our health and wealth. Even here on the mission field countless (no really, I can’t count them all!) people make decisions about where they live and who they will serve based on safety. Our forefathers did not do that. We do. When my wife and I obeyed God’s call to serve a people in civil war, economic collapse, and societal chaos we prayed together and told Him that He could take our lives and the lives of our two little girls if that was what was necessary to see His Kingdom come and His will be done. Many of my pastor friends thought we were crazy and even the good people who supported what we did declared that they would not be willing to do the same. As long as you are not willing to lose all you have- your money, your things, your health, your all- for the sake of God’s Kingdom you are no better than Brother Joel.
- We must repent of our adultery. I won’t quote Ezekiel 23. I used to read it as a teenager and snigger. I don’t snigger anymore. We are an adulterous generation. How? By looking to politics and earthly power instead of the Gospel to change our nation and our world. In Ezekiel’s day the nation of Israel had political alliances with Babylon, Assyria, and Egypt. They played one against another. Why not? All three claimed sovereignty over Israel at one time or another. It was prudent for the Kings of Judah to look to Egypt when Babylon was threatening. It was sensible. It was well within their rights to do. It was adultery. They looked to Egypt instead of God. We have done the same now for the best part of 30 years. I am still hearing it from people that I admire and love. ‘Hey did you hear that Trump was led to faith by so and so? If we can just get him discipled then WE will have someone in the White House.’ Who is we? The Church? Almighty God’s eternal Church needs a US president to help them out? That is adultery and we have been at it, ‘lusting after our paramours’ for far too long. The Gospel does not need political power. It is the power of God. We must look to that power alone for the future of our society. I pray for our nation’s leaders. I pay taxes. I put my trust in the Gospel. No law will correct our broken society. Only the Gospel can change America. If we align ourselves with political power then we forfeit the right to proclaim the Gospel. We have for too long forfeited that right and our nation is in the condition it is in because its priests have been sleeping with politicians instead of standing before Almighty God on behalf of our people.
- We must love others well. God is love. We must love if we will be of God. Most of us say we are loving as we are inpatient, insisting on our own way- after all we are right!- are unkind, rude (well, they started it!), jealous, envious (of each other and the world). We don’t believe all things, hope all things, and heaven forbid we have to endure anything. We are known for correct doctrine. All doctrine is utterly false without love. We must be known for love. We must come to believe in love again. We don’t believe in it anymore. We believe that unless we rail against others then they will keep going down sin’s path. We fail our Master completely when we point out the truth of other’s lostness while not communicating the love and great grace of Jesus.
- Get rid of your guns. I know, this is too far for too many of you. But this idol must die. As an American citizen you have the right to bear arms. As a citizen of God’s Kingdom you have the responsibility to lay your life down. When Jim Elliot and Nate Saint went to see the Indians of South America with their three lesser known friends they had guns on the plane. The guns stayed in the plane. They refused to shoot the Indians they had come to love to protect themselves, and more interesting to me, they would not even shoot the Indians to protect each other. They died with Bibles in their hands and love in their hearts and the fruit of those deaths was eternal life to thousands. I live that way. I will not take up a weapon to protect my things or myself. I encourage you to do the same. America is a paranoid bastion of self-centered self-interest and ‘heaven help the person who tries to take what is mine.’ They can’t take it if you lay it down. Revival will come when you lay it down.
Jesus said that the people of this world were more discerning of the times than the children of the Kingdom. The Kingdom of God is advancing like never before and it is past time for us to invest in eternal securities. The fruit of the Spirit is eternal- it is a gift from Him. Cultivate it, let it grow in you. I have bragged about my meanness and judgmental spirit for far too long. I must pray for more patience, kindness, more hope, more endurance, more love. People are eternal. God made them that way, so, invest in people. We Southern Baptists are pretty up on the law and doctrine. We need to be up on people for whom the law and the doctrine were meant to serve. When we love people more than anything else then we will be more like Jesus than we have yet been. I should make one more thing clear as I conclude this long paper. God’s Kingdom is coming- we can’t stop it- God’s Bride will be ready- it is His work. The question is will we be found ushering in our Bride-groom with full oil lamps or will we be out in the cold dark? He is coming soon.
Strider, you speak my heart here, and I daresay most Americans, even Christians, even in the SBC, don’t fully get it. While despising the bias of the media we still let lit color our perception of the world by allowing it to direct our focus. So people despair because the US isn’t the country the founders intended and much of the US is filled with God-haters. We should rejoice because finally Christendom is becoming divorced from the culture where it’s easy for the unregenerate to fill pews, and the Church is starting to become more faithful. The amazing thing is… Read more »
Strider has never softened the blow!
He speaks forcefully and doesn’t hold back.
Every single sentence a treasure.
Thanks Dave….. I think.
Lots os good here. Thanks for writing. But, “Get rid of your guns. I know, this is too far for too many of you. But this idol must die. As an American citizen you have the right to bear arms. As a citizen of God’s Kingdom you have the responsibility to lay your life down.” Guns, and the 2nd amendment may be idols, but they need not be necessarily. And, I may choose to lay dow my life, but I cannot make that choice for my wife, children, and grandchildren. They each have to make that decision. I cannot do… Read more »
I agree with much of this article, not all. I do not look at guns as an idol. I think few do. Nor do I look at guns as evil; it depends on who has them and how they are used. Usually, “The only thing that stops a bad man with a gun, is a good man with a gun.” Nor do I see why laying down our guns will bring revival, unless God specifically asks us to do so. I certainly do not demand all have guns, that is up to the individual, and many unique situations. If God… Read more »
American Baptists and their guns….
I do appreciate a rare article about revival here but I am afraid the author is too strong and forceful about some issues outside Biblical parameters for revival.
One good question though: how in the world did the Great Awakenings ever happen in a land with nearly 100% gun ownership at the time (Quakers and other pacifist groups being the exceptions at the time)?
Strider dwells in Middle Earth, a long, long way from here, and I don’t know when he will be able to respond. I hesitate to speak for him and I don’t share all of his convictions on things. I’m neither a gun enthusiast nor a gun enemy. Here’s the thing – I don’t think the issue he’s getting at is GUNS, but the idolatry of them. I think he’s looking at them as a thing so many folks are so passionate about. We tend to get ourselves focused on so many things that are not Christ, not the mission. So,… Read more »
Well said, Dave. I’m not a gun owner, but guns are definitely handy for hunting, defense, competition, and entertainment. (I was born in Annie Oakley’s home town.) I was a tank commander in the US Marines, so I’ve had a lot of firepower at my disposal. But there’s definitely a difference between being “pro-gun” and having guns as an idol. While the US was founded on Christian principles, we shouldn’t confuse the bill of rights with the law of God. I was willing to go into harm’s way for the Constitution of the United States and kill its enemies. How… Read more »
Wow, stepping on a lot of toes, mine included, but I agree with you. Our/my idols are comfort and safety. I continue to pray that I will serve the Lord regardless of where he leads me.
I am 10 to 12 hours ahead of most of you and will be traveling tomorrow up a valley with no internet access. By the way, I will be going to see a family that has come to faith in the last village up a narrow valley in what is truly the ends of the earth- God is moving! But, before I get out the door let me unpack the gun thing a little more. Yes, it is not about the Second Amendment, it is about Lordship. I was made aware of the idolatry issue after Sandy Hook. On my… Read more »
Well said Strider!
Strider, again, you say some very good things. And then this, “Third, most of you have not thought through the gun issue. You are conservative and so you tow the conservative line. I challenge you with this: guns kill people.”
Brother, you just don’t know “most of” us well enough to make a statement like that, credibly. There are a lot of us who have given the gun issue quite a bit of thought, and we’ve come to different conclusions than you. Owning a gun for sport and/or protection is not a biblical/moral/gospel issue.
As an American I support our second amendment. I oppose the acts of those “anti-gun” Americans who want to neuter or destroy it. BUT, many American Christians do have a gun idolatry problem that they need to destroy. If you don’t believe it, you don’t have the same fanatical gun friends that I have on Facebook! Guns are not the answer, God is. You don’t have to get rid of the gun, but get rid of the idol. (But if the idol is too strong, get rid of it. Hezekiah had to destroy Moses’s brazen serpent that God had used… Read more »
I think Robert strikes the right balance here and gets to what I think is the heart of Strider’s point. I’ve known people who go into an absolute frenzy over the thought of any type of gun control, and wouldn’t think of disagreeing with the NRA to save their lives.
It’s odd that a great article about revival hasn’t generated discussion on anything but the second amendment.
Jim I agree. It’s unfortunate. But from my view, the guns issue is the distraction in an otherwise good piece. There are a host of other idols in American culture that are of a moral nature that could have been focused on and the distraction would never have occurred. We all agree that anything can become an idol. But I fail to see how giving up our guns is even close to the solution for Christians.
Les: If anything I believe Strider has placed the gun issue right where it belongs. What strikes me is how many toes this small insert has caused. Good grief.
As part of the revival in his day, Hezekiah destroyed the brazen serpent Moses had made and called it Nehushtan (just a piece of brass). If guns aren’t “just a tool”/just a piece of wood & metal, then they are idols.
You all will not consider this fair but I think it is true and so I will say it out loud. The fact that the gun issue is the issue that has drawn a response is proof to me that it is the issue that needs to be addressed. My dad always said, ‘People get pretty upset when you mess with their gods.’ But, consider this, revival in our land has not come today. We would like very much for each one of us to continue to do what we have always done and for revival to suddenly come. It… Read more »
Strider, “Looking to guns for our protection instead of Jesus is one issue.” It is not an either/or thing brother. When a Christian undergoes chemo, he or she is not looking to medicine rather than Jesus. He or she is looking to Jesus for healing, using the very things Jesus has given us FOR that healing. You assume here that a man, using his gun, stopping a home invader he believes intent on murdering his children is somehow engaging in idolatry and not trusting Jesus because he doesn’t just allow the murderous home invader to kill him, his wife and… Read more »
Yeah, well suspiciously it was number four after money, politics, and love. And, when I use Chemo to attack cancer I am not killing someone else and sending them to a Christless eternity. I am asking us to live a Gospel centered life that loves everyone even to our own hurt. I am not asking us to consider anything simple or easy. In all the places around the world where the Lord is on the move like never before followers of Jesus are unarmed, imprisoned, abused and even occasionally killed. Can we trust Jesus like that? For the record, I… Read more »
Strider,
I think we (you and I ) have said enough about the gun issue.
But I do want to thank you brother for your service to our Lord as you seek to advance His kingdom in what appears to be a very difficult part of our world. May God bess your ministry, protect you and your family, and may He bring revival such that we would all be in awe!
It’s possible that people see those who promote guns for self defense as lovers of violence, which is an indefensible postion for a Christian. If the peacemakers are to be blessed, then how can we promote violence, even in self defense, when Christ never did. I own two guns, both from my grandfather. I live in a rural community surrounded by guns. Guns are not the issue, but the devotion that people has to them is. If they are seen as promoting violence, Christians will never be taken seriously as lovers of peace and of all men as made in… Read more »
“If the peacemakers are to be blessed, then how can we promote violence, even in self defense, when Christ never did.”
Jesus made a whip and used some violence to drive the corrupt livestock sellers and money-changers out of the temple. Sometimes peacemaking requires a principled and controlled application of violence, or the threat thereof.
Christ never promoted violence in self defense, refusing to call down legions of angels to His defense. I don’t think it’s right to compare the violence of our world, with the righteous anger of Jesus. Is the “violence” of Jesus in that situation an example to us, one that we are to follow? How do I know when violence is acceptable, according to the Bible? Can you give me an example of when a Christian’s application of violence, even a principled and controlled application, would be warranted by the life of Jesus, or by any of the rest of the… Read more »
Let’s start with an easy one. If you are married and you are in a public, outdoor setting, a park, and a man comes up and knocks you to the ground and then proceeds to attack your wife and starts raping her. Would you counter attack (some level of violence like hitting him, kicking him, etc.) to get him off your wife? Anyone, not aimed at you Luke.
Thanks, Les. Yes, there are surprisingly no-brainer examples like this one. If I see a pedophile dragging a kid off, I’m going off on the pedophile with extreme prejudice without apology. If I see a man beating his wife, same thing. If I see an armed robber, I’ll weigh my options carefully but quickly and act appropriately to neutralize him. If I can pin him alive, then I’ll share the gospel until the police come and take him off. I was baptized in a Church of the Brethren, the denomination where my mother had been raised. It’s a pacifistic denomination.… Read more »
Guns kill people. They also save people’s lives. Just like a car or a computer, a gun can be used for good, or evil. American (and Allied) guns saved the lives of countless Jews and ended the holocaust. I have thought through the gun issue. In great detail. Just because we disagree with you Strider, does not mean we haven’t studied the issue, or that we are just plain ignorant. We are to be peacemakers. But sometimes you have to go to war to make peace. Sometimes you have to fight to protect the innocent. Ever heard of the Colt… Read more »
I am sorry about the ‘not thought it through’ statement. I didn’t mean that none of you had thought deeply about this. I meant that if you have a gun for self-defense you are preparing to kill someone. The colt peacemakier? Sorry, that is the kind of might makes right imagery I find so offensive. I believe that the State should have a police force and a strong military. If others want to carry guns good on them. I am attacking the trust issue. Are you afraid? Do you turn to God or your gun? I have been listening to… Read more »
This is not a real world application. I doubt this has happened to anyone that you know. Not that rape and abuse don’t happen, but this is worst case scenario we present to say, “see, some violence is okay.” If this did happen, it would be evil, and we are not to sit by and let evil happen around us. We are to resist evil, to fight against it. I would stop this, I would fight against a pedophile, I would do all those things. But violence for violence’s sake still violates the example of Jesus. Jesus used the whip… Read more »
Um, yes this has happened.
“But violence for violence’s sake still violates the example of Jesus.”
Who ever here advocates “violence for violence’s sake?” In any example of self defense or family defense against violence or impending murder, it is “violence for life preservation” or “for justice” sake. Protection AGAINST evil and violence.
Guns are the tools that people use to kill people. No gun, on its own, without outside human intervention has ever killed anyone. A gun in the hands of a law abiding citizen or just government official (police/military) is a tool used for the protection of self and others. A gun in the hands of a criminal is a tool of violence used to inflict harm. Blaming violence on the tool makes absolutely no sense. We must also differentiate between being willing to lay down ones life for the gospel of Christ, and being non-resistant in non-gospel situations. Luke 22:36… Read more »
You have expressed your views on guns before and I don’t think I will change you mind. I will reply to a couple of things you said though, ‘Non-gospel’ situations. There shouldn’t be any. The Gospel is always the answer. We are to always be sharing the truth of Christ. Who told you it was different in the US than on the ‘mission field’? You are in a mission field. The church in the US acts like it is in Israel but it is most assuredly in Babylon. Love, not violence will bring about change. I believe in the power… Read more »
I know a woman who was sexually assaulted. I wish she had the opportunity to defend herself or someone else had the ability to defend her at that time. Prayer and faith did nothing at that moment, but a gun could have saved her the trauma she faced. I know the wife of a minister who was assaulted and shot because a thug wanted her car. Her kids were in the car with her. She and her minister husband now are strong gun rights supporters and each have their CCW licenses. I have said it before and I will say… Read more »
Prayer and faith did nothing in that moment…. Yep, that’s what I find blasphemous. You are citing examples of people facing the evil of this world and deciding to turn to guns and violence for the answer. I am telling you that Jesus way is another way. He lays his life down. He does not defend himself. There is a resurrection. I know that many of you cannot hear this, society is too violent and dangerous. I am saying that I live this way and I have seen God do amazing things. :Taste and see’ is all I can encourage… Read more »
So you would have a woman in the process of being raped to just lie there and take it? You would tell her not to resist. You would tell her not to resist? Is that what you tell little Muslim girls when they are sold off to “men” 20+ years their age? Cultures that say it is a woman’s fault if they are raped, and you would tell them don’t resist? Again how is this any different than the faith healers who say going to a “secular” doctor is wrong. That doing so shows a lack of faith in God.… Read more »
SV, Your assertion that we are called to defend ourselves against simple violence using whatever means is skewered by Jesus’ admonition to “turn the other cheek” in the presence of simple violence. Your assertion also betrays a lack of understanding of the conditions endured by first century Jews and Christians. Giving your cloak, going the extra mile, etc were all in response to real, violent oppression foisted on the people Jesus was talking to by their Roman oppressors. I am not saying that there is not a time to defend the lives of others, and possibly to use very violent… Read more »
Many (if not most) gun owners like myself spend a lot of time working on our situational awareness. Because you are right, there are times where self-defense with a firearm is not appropriate. We study the laws, we focus on our skills, we continually improve ourselves so that IF (Lord forbid) a situation were to ever develop, we will act in the most responsible manner possible. However, because I am not all knowing, because I cannot see the future, I do not know those situations in advance. I carry as much as legally possible because I do not know what… Read more »
There is nothing in scripture that says it is ALWAYS wrong. But there isn’t a time given when it would be right, either. No where does scripture say, “violence is acceptable in these situations.” If someone decides a level of violence is appropriate in a situation, is a decision they have made themselves. Don’t read into the text what is not there.
Strider, In my opinion there is a basic fallacy in your argument when you say: ” In all the places around the world where the Lord is on the move like never before followers of Jesus are unarmed, imprisoned, abused and even occasionally killed. Can we trust Jesus like that?” You are making an argument that part of the reason that revival is not coming to America is because of Americans, and more specifically, Evangelicals in America, have a fixation with guns. I don’t see any statistical evidence to show that cause and effect. There are a lot of other… Read more »
Eliminating gun ownership… no, getting free from fear and idolatry is the real issue. I stand by that still.
There was an armed security guard at the Orlando nightclub.
Bill Mac, your point about the armed guard is what?
My point is that people are saying if only there was someone there with a gun, things would have been different. There was someone there, trained, with a gun. I’m not anti-gun, but guns aren’t magic.
Bill Mac, that’s patently ridiculous. Read the first reponders’ accounts of that horrific scene. And if 50 of the patrons had been armed, then it would have been over quickly. But no. It was a gun free zone.
Les: Which part is ridiculous? That there was an armed guard there, or that guns aren’t magic? I’m always hearing that if there was just one person with a gun, things would be different. Now you are upping the ante to 50 people with guns. No, make that 50 patrons in a drinking establishment with guns, an idea that even the NRA says is too radical, and that’s saying something. I’m not opposed to carrying firearms for protection. I’ve served as a reference for several pistol permits. But I will say again that guns aren’t magic. Pistols are notoriously hard… Read more »
Bill Mac, both are ridiculous. To try to say, “See, there was one armed security guard there, so having an armed person didn’t work. So guns aren’t magic” is a supreme straw man and ridiculous. Who says guns are magic? Who says having one armed person in any establishment is the cure all? Both ideas are, as I said, ridiculous. No one with any sense makes such an argument. I haven’t upped the ante. Most of us who believe in an armed citizenry believe that more legally armed citizens leads to less crime. And guess what? Stats prove that. I’ve… Read more »
Les: My point is that I think “if only we had more guns” is the kind of fear and idolatry that Strider is talking about. I’m a gun owner and hunter, but I certainly would not feel safer if I thought everyone around me was packing. Yeah, maybe your gun will save your life someday or someone else’s. Or maybe it won’t. Maybe you’ll miss. Or maybe someone will get it away from you, or maybe a child will find it. It happens all the time. I’m sure you take precautions so it probably won’t. Like I say, I’m not… Read more »
Bill Mac, I don’t live in fear. I just try to be prudent and prepared. I also wear seat belts. That’s not “fear” of dying. It’s just smart. And, guns aren’t my idol.
Just to be clear, I do not advocate packing in nightclubs. I was simply making a point of more armed people in general in a given place is better than not. Not about bars specifically. I agree with the NRA and you and I probably agree more than we disagree on the guns issue.
Strider,
Are you still employed by the IMB?
I am. I am heading up the a remote valley today will be gone for the next several days visiting some new believers there.
I really thought I would see you come on this thread though and thank me for not mentioning the idol of SEC football though.
For some reason I had thought you were no longer with the IMB.
Strider,
It is true that some people make sports an idol. However, I am not one of those people.
It is true that I am a great fan of the Crimson Tide. Yet, I am nowhere near as great a fan of the Tide as you are of yourself.
Ouch!! That was pretty personal! RTR (Roll Tide Roll for those who don’t know).
“Years ago we even took to calling ourselves ‘New Testament Churches’ implying that we were meeting and believing just like the original first century Church.”
Not everyone was making such an implication. When many and maybe most called their church a “NT Church” they meant their mission and focus was to be a local church seeking to fulfill the Great Commission and embrace the doctrines and principles revealed in the NT.
I appreciate the spirit and emphasis of the Bold Mission Thrust. And I appreciate that the recent situation undoubtedly felt like the right parenthesis of that era. But it is just as much idolatry to emphasize men’s programs to accomplish God’s plan. If there be any glory, let it be given to God for his role in blessing our efforts. That is the NT way.
And, no, Strider, I’m not saying you’re doing it wrong. I’m just more keen on lifting up Jesus so that he may draw all men to him.
If someone is breaking in my house, and is trying to do harm to my daughter, I will protect her with every available means. I do own a gun, but if I didn’t I would use a knife, ball bat, or shovel. I will show compassion to people just like we are called to in the Bible, but I also choose not to be a victim if I don’t have to be. I am absolutely amazed at the issues that get described as “Gospel Issues “. I never thought I would see the day when properly defending oneself from being… Read more »
It’s not a gospel issue.
I love Jesus and Go Vols! Beat Bama!
Vol,
On October 15, you shall have that opportunity. It is possible . . . . NOT!
ROLL TIDE!!!!
CB,
We moved our Annual Assoc. Fall Conference back a week so it would not be on that day!!
The Vols are ready!
Vol,
Tell your DOM that I said I will “PAY” your association to allow me to be the keynote speaker this year. You Volunteers will never forget that meeting. 😉
I love Jesus , CB and Vol and I say GO HEELS.
Love to see bama lose almost any team they play – but can tolerate he Vols a little better.
Tarheel,
You guys need to stick to basketball. Football is just not in you NC folks.
I feel like Times are achangin’ – we shall see.
Heels are expected to do well in football this year.
Quote Bob Dylan all you want, but remember, he’s no QB. 😉
Well said Strider. I agree with everything you said. We as Baptist and as a nation need revival and spiritual awakening. One thing that you must include in any call for revival is repentance and confession of sin. That would include a humble spirit. I do not see this when I attend Southern Baptist conferences and convention meetings. On the contrary I see pride and confession of the sins of others. As far as the worship of guns, when I was growing up in America, I am 69 now, most people owned guns in Arkansas where I lived. They were… Read more »
So, rewest47, are you saying that back when you were growing up in Arkansas everybody had “common sense control of the use and availability of guns” and therefore they were OK to own and still have revival in the land, but now we have no “common sense of control of the use and availability of guns” and therefore need to rid ourselves of our guns in order to have revival?
If you think that gun owners “pull out a gun and start shooting” at the drop of a hat, then you don’t know anything about modern gun ownership, you are showing your ignorance, and you need to remove yourself from the conversation before make your self look even more idiotic. Here is a news flash. Concealed carry permit holders commit gun related crimes at a rate LESS than the average population. In the majority cases where guns are used in crimes, the gun was obtained illegally. In the past 30 years as states passed “shall issue” CCW laws, those states… Read more »
“If you think that gun owners “pull out a gun and start shooting” at the drop of a hat, then you don’t know anything about modern gun ownership. . . ”
You’re right, svmuschany. Sometimes gun owners start shooting at the flip of a coin or when the clock strikes 12, or on the count of three, or as the great Andrew Jackson said at the Battle of New Orleans, “when you see the whites of their eyes.”
Yep, you’re right, svmuschany, gun owners don’t always “pull out a gun and start shooting at the drop of a hat.”
CB, the whites of their eyes was at Bunker Hill in the American Revolution. Sorry the history buff can’t let it go…lol
John Wylie,
I might be wrong, but I think that although Gen. Putnam said it at Bunker Hill, Gen. Jackson also said it at the Battle of New Orleans. Actually, and again I may be wrong, but I think it was a quite common thing said during the years when black powder was in major use.
The song mentions Gen Jackson saying “…till we look’em in the eyes…” but there is no historical evidence he said anything that. Indeed the British advance started pre-dawn under heavy fog. American batteries and riflemen started really opening up as the fog lifted, and they could see what they were shooting at. Had nothing to do with waiting until they saw the eyes. Songs, while popular, rarely are historically accurate.
This bit about the whites of their eyes is an interesting thread to the discussion and in part draws attention to the spiritual aspect of gun usage, ownership, and responsibility that parallels that of principled proclamation of the Gospel. In the day of the Revolutionary War, it took time to reload. It was helpful to aim well for the single shot you had loaded. However, fear will cause someone to not aim well. Fear causes the capillaries to constrict in the forebrain and impairs the ability to think well. What you act on is what your midbrain is conditioned to… Read more »
svmuschany,
Gen. Jackson was well known for his cussing, but his singing was not much to be enjoyed. He was no singer of songs. Also,the Battle of New Orleans was not during the Revolution, it was later. No longer did they use buzzards to drop bombs, they had advanced to kites.
Seriously guys, I think that if you check this out, the saying was quite common in those days and had a lot to do with the weaponry involved.
Jim, very good and interesting comments.
This is especially good, “Part of the problem among the conservative American Church right now is that we are more on about defending the Second Amendment than we are about practicing the First Amendment regarding the spread of the Gospel. We talk about it but don’t do it anywhere near as much as we should.”
Thanks for the reminder brother.
rewest47,
I agree with on the revival thing…… But, I’ve never seen any gun roll over and tempt a man to start shooting another man.
I find it hard to accept that an American Christian who supports the Second Amendment is hindering revival in our nation for that reason.
Then don’t accept it, Tarheel, because it is simply not true. Neither the Scripture, nor history substantiate such a claim.
Agreed, I was trying to be tactful.
As I’m sure you’re aware – I’m not always the friendliest of commenters.
My 14 year old son looked at my phone over my shoulder and said, “I wouldn’t listen to a brother named Tarheel.” I may have the brightest kid ever.
LOL. Gee thanks. 😉
Wait – he is 14??
Tell him I said – “I guess haters gonna hate.”
CB, my comments on revival were one thing. I commented on the above discussion about gun control in a separate paragraph. I said nothing about rid ourselves of guns. Every time some one mentions any restrictions on guns some accuses you of wanting to do away with all guns. If you are opposed to kindergarten students being able to carry loaded glock 42s to school to play with at recess, you are in favor of gun control. Everyone favors gun control. It just depends on the extent you wish to carry it. I think we have moved away from the… Read more »
Ron West,
I did not respond to any comment you made. My response was to Tarheel’s comment. However, If you want to have a dialogue with me about the Second Amendment and whether or not to ascribe to such is or is not within the parameters of being a NT Christian, then leave your childish comments about K4 and K5 students out of it and we shall be able to discuss the issue.
😉 Looks like I got you in trouble, CB.
CB: I think rewest47 is Ron West
Ron West,
I owe you an apology. I did respond to a comment you made. You made a comment as rewest47. I did not realize that was you. Forgive the error on my part not to make the connection.
It is interesting that guns are the much more popular discussion topic and brings out more passion than revival.
When someone says that revival will only happen after people “lay down” their guns, yea it provokes a strong response. It demonizes literally MILLIONS of American Christians, implies they are to blame for the state of America (due to lack of revival), and turns God into the magic genie who will only respond if we rub his lamp the right way. There is nothing different between this, and the WOF crowd who continue to try and start revivals, and lay the blame at “sinners” when revivals do not happen. True revivals, are a work of God through the Holy Spirit.… Read more »
Millions? Really?
According to statistics yes Debbie, MILLIONS! Let us do some simple math. There are just under 340 million people in the United States. The number of households is somewhere around 115 million. Study after study (both pro and anti gun) reveal that the lowest figure for guns in the home in the United States is 30%. Some studies have that number as high as 47%, but lets use that 30%. 30% of 115 million is 34.5 million. Now let’s use a relatively low number of 10% of the country is genuine born-again Christian (likely higher…at least I would hope). 10%… Read more »
svmuschany,
You might have answered the age old question about why so few Southern Baptists can be found in church on Sunday morning. There are millions out at the gun range.
Ron West,
I had hoped this thread was going to become a FOOTBALL thread. I did try to make it one along with a little help from my friends from UT and UNC.
I didn’t hear anyone say revival will only happen after people lay down their guns. Where was that said? I think you missed the whole point of Strider’s post
Ron, Look at the title of the post, “The Road to Revoival in Our Land.” Then, 4 things we must correct. He chose guns as one of those things. How else is one to read this? Now Strider can come on here and clear things up. But he made the case that guns are our idols and we must publicly lay them down. I don’t think we are missing the point.
And he said at the end of the guns point, “Revival will come when you lay it down.”
So there’s that.
I think you have a reading comprehension problem. One that makes you blind to any imperfections in your personal bias. The author started by saying…”Here is a short list of things we must correct in order to align ourselves with what God is doing in the world.” Implication: Revival will not happen until we complete these four steps. The fourth point is: “Get rid of your guns”. Implication: Revival will not happen until we get rid of (our) guns. At the end of the fourth point the author actually says this very clearly…”Revival will come when you lay it down.”… Read more »
SV, I agree with you and Les here – there is no way to read what was said than the way it is clearly written – and he clearly wrote (and defended) that revival will not happen until we lay down our guns….I also agree that this idea he is projecting is coming from someplace in left field (if it is even the ball park)…. But to say that he should be swept up in an IMB house cleaning might be a little much, don’t you think? I disagree with him – but I’m not sure this rises to the… Read more »
There is an IMB which has missionaries with divergent and varied theological beliefs (Calvinism/Traditionalism for example), and then there is an IMB that would allow missionaries to have radical beliefs. I am sure we would all agree an IMB missionary approving of homosexuality should be removed. Or one who advocates universalism. Or many other “extreme” views that missionaries could have. Suppose an IMB missionary said that Christians must give up their cars, because it is a hinderance to revival, what would we think? When you remove suicides from the statistics (which average nearly 2/3rds of firearm related deaths), you are… Read more »
svmuschany,
To use a common expression used frequently among liberal, anti-gun activists, I must say your comment regarding IMB missionaries might be just a little bit of an “Overkill.”
svmuschany,
Using a phrase employed by anti-gun advocates, it might be possible that your comment about IMB missionaries is just a little bit of an “Overkill.”
Come on, SV, you’re into nonsense here. Because he takes a position you reject, and on a matter not covered by any doctrinal statement, you call his employment into question?
Hooey, bro. You are too emotionally invested in your position.
So, you are saying it is ok for someone to argue that Americans owning firearms is preventing revival, a position which is not covered under any doctrinal statement I know of within the SBC; but I cannot call that person out? I cannot question whether someone with such a belief and attitude is the best option for IMB service? If a Calvinist or Traditionalist missionary in the field were to say that the other theological side is a “hinderance” to revivals, I would question if they should be serving too. I mean, after all we will remove IMB personnel who… Read more »
It’s a debatable position. And one not spoken to in the BFM. And one that, quite clearly, has several passages of Scripture that could be run with in many directions. Mr. Strider is certainly entitled and within the bounds of Baptisty cooperation then, and should not be expected to be quiet or bothered about his view. And we absolutely should not expect IMB to approve or disapprove, heck even give permission, to anyone’s blog posts. I don’t submit mine to my deacons before I post them. I’d write even less if I did. And to the car point: we spend… Read more »
David, SV: And I may be a few fries short of a full pack, but I can’t understand why what Strider has said, which I agree with, should evoke such strong emotions that you would want to take this missionary who God is obviously using to bring souls to Christ in a community most would not want to go, and have him fired. That is ridiculous and just plain wrong SV. Very wrong.
Or did you miss reading this part SV?
“Strider is an IMB Missionary who has served 20 years in Middle Earth among Muslim peoples.”
I have had written contact with Strider for many years and frankly I am so glad he is serving in the IMB. He is a remarkable man with a remarkable wife. He not only has a passion for those he serves but his writing is remarkable and as you can see hits where it hurts sometimes, yet has stories that have one praising God for His works.
svmuschany, William Thornton is right. You are too emotional about your position. Now, I am going to say something that may be offensive to you, and please understand that most of the time, my comments to you are just larks as are many of my comments on this blog. However, from time-to-time, I do make a serious comment and this is one. svmuschany, I have been reading your comments for years now here on Voices. It seems to me that you get seriously angry at times in these threads. I don’t know if you carry a concealed weapon or not.… Read more »
Debbie, where would you then draw the line? Mr Thornton mentions “any doctrinal statement” and Mr Hibbard mentions the BFM. Great, so when missionaries with private prayer languages were removed from serving in the IMB, was that right or wrong? Did you Debbie condemn their removal? Now, let us compare PPL and what Strider has said. Private Prayer Language is just that, private. To my knowledge and memory, there were not people advocating this standard across all IMB personnel, they were not making an issue out of it (that is until they were targeted for removal), they were honest about… Read more »
“Great, so when missionaries with private prayer languages were removed from serving in the IMB, was that right or wrong? Did you Debbie condemn their removal?”
Yes, svmuschany, Debbie Kaufman did condemn their removal. She sure did.
Mr Scott, I appreciate you being honest with me. I recognize the flaws of my online persona probably better than anyone. I also know (and know you have no way of knowing this) that my “real life” behavior is much different. In person, I would be the guy sitting alone afraid of talking to anyone due to social anxiety issues. In person I lead a fairly solitary, lonely and pathetic life. I also however have a strong sense of situational awareness. I avoid placing myself in situations where I might have to use my weapon (yes I have a CCW).… Read more »
Let me also add Mr Scott, that I think I do a fairly good job at controlling my anger online sometimes. If I didn’t I would have been on certain other “baptist” blogs shouting down some people who make particular statements about those holding to particular theological views, as well as statements against current SBC entity personnel. While I admit to visiting those sites on occasion I do not respond no matter how infuriated their statements make me. I’d like to think that in some small way that is a good sign. After all, this being online, you only see… Read more »
SV: Ask CB or David W, Dave Miller if I condemned the removal of missionaries who were rejected due to private prayer language? Ask Dr. McKissic if I condemned the removal of missionaries because of PPL? Yes, yes and yes. Oh and yes.
Understood Debbie. I apologize if in asking my question, I insinuated that you did not. I still think what the author has done here is more serious and egregious than anything PPL folk were accused of, but I recognize that you are being consistent in your thoughts on IMB missionary removal, and I can at least respect you for that. Once again I apologize.
svmuschany, You stated, “In person I lead a fairly solitary, lonely and pathetic life.” First let me state that my blog personality is pretty much my public personality. Ask Dave Miller, David Worley, William Thornton and several others. They will tell you I can be a jerk sometimes and at other times I can be an almost decent guy, but I always keep my word. So, with that said; Brother, you don’t have to live a lonely and pathetic life. You are the image bearer of God and according to your own testimony, you are a blood-bought, born-again follower of… Read more »
Hey Debbie Kaufman,
It is my learned opinion after these 10 years of exchange with you in the threads of many Baptist blogs, that you should not carry concealed weapons of any kind; not handguns, edged weapons, mace, garrotes, tomahawks or steel tipped ink pens or sharpened pencils. And please no hand-grenades at all! 😉 😉
🙂
It’s ok SV.
Ron West, In Strider’s first reply in the comment stream, he specifically said: “Laying down our politics, our economics, and our guns publicly is the only way I know to restore Jesus to the front of our hearts, lives, and conversations.” I don’t know how he could be more clear than that. He sounds like he desires for Christians to publicly turn in their guns so that all of America would know that they no longer possess them. Furthermore, he is saying that this action of turning in the guns is a prerequisite to “restore Jesus to the front of… Read more »
1. I don’t own a gun, and have personally witnessed the glee of Christians describing how they would shoot down any intruder to their home. I have heard John Pipers description of why he has no gun, being unwilling to send a likely unsaved attacker to he’ll in order to delay his and his wife’s trip to heaven. I believe it is a strong case. 2. However, I don’t think Striders position is entirely biblically required, or consistent. He said he believes in police and state military, but did not specify about Christians serving in such an armed force. It… Read more »
I have been a “fan” of Pastor Piper’s for a long time, but I disagree with him on this issue. Contrary to popular opinion I can disagree with someone on an issue, and still agree with them on many other things. However, what sets apart what Pastor Piper wrote (I went back and re-read his post on gun ownership) and what the author of this thread; is Pastor Piper never insinuated anything about Christians who own guns. He didn’t say they were not saved. He did not imply they were the cause for lack of revival, he didn’t do anything… Read more »
To play devils advicate here, would you say the same thing if a person said revival will not come unless we all pray? Would that he limiting God in your opinion? If not, it seems that another argument against striders position would be better.
Revival happens at the time and place of God’s choosing. If God wills it, revival will happen whether people pray or not. If God wills it, at a particular time and place revival will not break out, whether people pray or do not. We are called to pray, we are called to long for revival, but it’s arrival is not predicated upon our prayer. I view this a lot like I view salvation. As a Calvinist, I know God knows exactly who will be saved. He knows the time, and place. No matter what we as Christians do, that person… Read more »
Andy you must understand that I spent several years immersed in WoF theology. I attended their churches, I believed their teachings. Goodness sake I actually was in the same church service as “Rev” John Kilpatrick of the Toronto and Pensacola revivals. I was at churches that “prayed” for revival, and when it did not come as they were expecting, they said they just did not have enough faith or it was because of “sin” among the believers. They (leaders/pastors) used emotional manipulation to whip the people into a frenzy. They made God something that was limited because of the inaction… Read more »
I don’t speak for Strider so maybe I’m wrong, but I think he is talking about the idolatry people make of guns, and I agree many people do. I think he’s also talking about fear. As I’ve said, I’m not anti-gun, but I know a lot of people walk around with a weapon that is loaded, chambered, and either with the safety off or with no safety. I think (unless you are military or police) that if you think you need to be able to kill in a split second, then perhaps (I said perhaps) idolatry or fear is in… Read more »
“And call me a cynic, but I very much doubt the average gun owner’s ability to assess a situation accurately, draw and fire a weapon safely and accurately in less time than it takes to chamber a round and/or flip the safety off.”
Agreed. It concerns me that some people “think” they’re trained enough to do that. Don’t have so much issue with round chambered – but safety off is stupid, IMO.
Problem what your defense of the authors possible intent – that’s not what he said.
If Idolatry were number four in his peice and an *example* of guns idolization were used to buttress that – I don’t think there would be as much disagreement in the comment thread.
Some might argue it was a bad example – but I think the disagreement is stronger because he actually made the literal “laying down of our guns” a pre-requisite for revival.
“Don’t have so much issue with round chambered – but safety off is stupid, IMO.”
Not all handguns have a “safety” as we normally think of it. Some of my handguns do others don’t. But this about a popular firearm:
“The Glock pistol was designed without an external safety to make drawing and firing the pistol quicker and easier. It does have 3 internal safeties that prevent the gun from firing accidentally. In short, the Glock pistol simply will not fire unless the trigger is fully depressed.”
Les Prouty is right about the safety issue. As a matter of fact, revolvers have no safety on them. For that reason older SA revolvers were usually carried with only 5 rounds and the hammer over an empty chamber. Modern revolvers are usually carried with a full load, but without a safety.
BTW, Glock is one of the “safest” handguns made even without the external safety.
“but I know a lot of people walk around with a weapon that is loaded, chambered, and either with the safety off or with no safety.” See my other reply to Tarheel about the safety issue. Also, chambered…many modern handguns are designed to allow you to have a round chambered and the hammer partially pulled back so as to have quicker ability to fire. But they cannot be fired unless the trigger is pulled. It is designed not to just go off while holstered. For example, one of my “carry” pistols is the Sig Sauer P230. It has the below… Read more »
This is good info guys, and I’m all for preventing guns from going off accidentally, but it is the mindset that I have to be able to kill nearly instantly that I have a problem with.
Bill, I carry all my guns with a round in the chamber. Of the 3 guns I rotate through depending on what clothes I am wearing (yes I match my gun to clothes like women match shoes to dress…so…) 2 are striker fired (basically how Glock is set up, no external safety), and the other is a 1911 which I carry in condition 1 (round in chamber, hammer back, safety on). I do not carry with a round in the chamber because I want to “kill” instantly. I carry this way because when the situation arises where I have to… Read more »
SV: “Not because I want to kill, but because the situation requires it.” I understand that you think that. I’m not convinced it’s true. I can’t find statistics, but I think the need and opportunity for a civilian to draw and fire in less time than in takes to chamber a round has got to be microscopic. I doubt very much that even police often need to draw and fire in less time than it takes to chamber a round. Again, this is my intuition, I don’t have data. But I’m willing to bet there are a lot of people… Read more »
Bill, trying to quickly chamber a round by operating a firearms slide while your body is shaking due to a surge of adrenalin would be hard, especially quickly. Let us also add to the conversation that operating that slide requires two hands, if ever (however unlikely) a person ever does not have operation of one of their hands, what are they to do? I actually train shooting with each hand because if there was ever a situation where my main hand was injured or pinned or in some way rendered unable to function I can switch to my off hand.… Read more »
One might argue that trying to shoot someone under these same circumstances is fraught with peril. Let us hope there are no innocents around other than the one with the gun.
Thanks SV for the Todd Bently reference as that greatly helps me understand where you are coming from. Yes, our sacrifice does not manipulate God- you and I agree on that. I am talking about obedience, aligning ourselves with Jesus instead of the world. I am NOT talking about public policy. Guns in American society and their pros and cons are irrelevant to me. The Church draws closer to Jesus and experiences His blessing when we proclaim the Gospel. My four points are all places where I see us drowning out the Gospel with our words and actions. I still… Read more »
I would ask you to consider that different cultural and societal situations require different approaches. You live/work in an area where firearms are not important, so they are not important to you. But here in the states there is a different social dynamic. I have a friend that attends a church that is on the border of the suburban/rural boundary. This church has regular events that are geared towards the culture that mostly attend, and that they are trying to reach. People like the “redneck” who was baptized as a kid, but does not attend church and many not even… Read more »
A recent wild game and hunting banquet at SWBTS saw 191 professions of faith.
http://swbts.edu/news/releases/men-s-game-banquet-sees-191-professions-faith/
My church had a Concealed Carry Gun class a couple of years ago.
Guns can be, and are, a positive part of our culture.
I’ve attended a Wild Game Banquet led by Paige Patterson. It was very well attended, well done, and had a great influence especially on dads and their boys.
David R. Brumbelow
191 persons saved!
Wow! I bet the local churches are swamped with baptismal candidates and new members.
I’m sure some mocked on the Day of Pentecost when 3,000 were saved.
David R. Brumbelow
Did you think that was mocking?
I am actually excited about the new Christ followers that local churches and their pastors will be able to baptize and disciple.
I know you guys who are celebrating Concealed Carry classes and Wild Game nights at churches and seminaries are refuting Strider’s point, but I rather think it is making his point.
No Bill Mac. Concealed carry classes and wild game suppers to reach men via means that men are interested in with the gospel (191 saved) could be replaced with basketball clinics and and ball sport banquets. It’s not idolatry as Strider suggests. No offense to him, but Strider doesn’t have the point he was trying to make.
Andy,
“(Gospel issue, anybody? ?)”
PLEASE do not give the gospel issuers any ideas! 😉
So, you contended that his point was idolatry and not specifically guns – and then you turn around and say that we are making his point for him.
I assume by that you mean that by supporting the aforementioned events we are demonstrating our idolatry relating to guns – is that a correct assumption as to your comment?
Further, are you suggesting that people should not be sharing the gospel through various culturally relevant means that do not violate scripture – such as wild game breakfast or dinner’s? Are you suggesting that such is demonstrative of Idolatry?
Tarheel: I’m trying to be careful here. Any number of biblically neutral items can become idols, so biblical neutrality is not the answer to this debate. Cultural relevance is a fine line to walk. I suspect many here who are all in favor of churches sponsoring a deadly weapon night would be horrified at a church having a hip-hop night. I am not suggesting the success of a concealed carry night is absolute demonstration of gun idolatry but I think it leans more towards a point in Strider’s favor than yours. Think about it, if X (whatever X is) is… Read more »
“The 1st amendment gives us the right to freely practice our faith. If the time comes when that right is taken away, I think many of us would willingly risk imprisonment to continue practicing our faith. But I doubt most of us would kill people over it. But I have heard (and read) many a person who say they would be willing to kill anyone who came to take their guns. To me, that indicates idolatry.” Bingo! If this is they case, I would say it is clear idolatry and misplaced values. I don’t think saying such things is consistent… Read more »
I have never been one to say “they will have to take my gun out of my cold dead hands” or that “I would kill the govt. representative who came to take my guns.” I think such language is inflammatory and too far for me to go. I have made statements about being willing to go to jail if certain rights were taken away – but as best I can remember those statements have been reserved to issues of religious liberty. I agree that idols can be made of a great many things/passions/whathaveya – we humans certainly love our idols… Read more »
The intensity of passion in the whole thread serves to underline his point, in my opinion.
Actually not at all. Here’s a few examples why:
-American Christians need to give up their idolatry of Washing machines if they want to see revival.
-American Christians need to give up their idolatry of owning a car if they want to see revival.
-American Christians need to give up their idolatry of wearing shoes if they want to see revival.
Any of these might ilicit strong debate and rebuttels…it doesn’t make any of them necessarily true.
Actually, if someone is committing idolatry over a washing machine or anything else, they should give it up regardless. Think of it this way: people can commit idolatry regarding the ministry of the Gospel. If that’s the case, then anything is game for idolatry. The question then becomes: Is there a link between idolatry and the effectiveness of any attempts at revival? Maybe and maybe not. That’s a worthy challenge here, but no one guilty of idolatry is going to make it because it means owning up to their idolatry. What I’m reading here from challengers to Strider’s position is… Read more »
“We shouldn’t be trying to bring revival to America so that America can become great again. We should want revival so that people are saved from hell and God is glorified.”
Very wise words. That might make it my sermon Sunday. But no one will believe I read it in blog comments.
Andy,
I doubt very much that a washing machine, car, or shoe night would bring in many people.
I doubt that a thread about washing machines would garner this much intensity or defense of washing machines.
Yes, I know I used silly examples…the point is, there are TWO different scenarios in which an article would elicit strong responses: 1. An author correctly and courageously calls out something sinful, calling people to give it up. (People don’t want to consider that something they care about might be wrong, and so they resist). 2. An author incorrectly calls something sinful that is not a sin, usurping the sufficiency of scripture and adding requirements upon Christians that the bible does not require. (in this case, Some Christians will strongly oppose this, out of a godly desire to not add… Read more »
Actually, Strider has already said he has no problem with hunting animals with guns. His argument is not against hunters.
Strider, If it’s not too late,
What is your view of Christians serving as Police officers and/or military, in which case they are called upon to use deadly force in defense of others?
It probably is late as there are several good new articles to read now and the conversation should move on. I grew up on base. My father was an air force pilot who served in Viet Nam twice. I am proud of that even though the war was a terrible mistake. If a man or woman feels that God wants them to serve as a police officer or in the military then weapons are a tool for them to use in the mission they have. Much of this thread has been sidetracked by debating the benefits of guns in our… Read more »
I have bought this up several times and have not gotten an answer. Given how this thread has expanded quickly, and given your work outside this thread it is understandable that you have not seen it or been able to answer. But given your last sentence, I want to ask it again. There are a surprisingly large number of Christians who believe going to a doctor/hospital/ect is wrong. They argue that it shows you are trusting in man to make you healthy and that you are not trusting in Jesus alone. They argue that it shows the world that you… Read more »
Based on Striders Reply here and his original article and other replies, I’m going to try to summarize his stated views, which I believe have some merit. 1. Strider sees a very strong correlation between Jesus’ example and Jesus’ instructions to lay down our lives and the Christian response to violent attackers. As he says, “I will not take up a weapon to defend my things or myself.” 2. Further, beyond just his own conscience, he believes that for OTHER Christians to kill someone to protect their things or themselves is contrary to the example and teaching of Jesus. He… Read more »
Thanks Andrew, I think you understand me correctly. I disagree with your number four because I still will not take a life. If there are those who believe that they should be prepared to protect others with firearms then I will not judge their hearts but I do believe that we are setting up a society based on vigilantism that I reject. SV, the answer about health is two fold: one, I am not taking another person’s life when I get medical care. and Two, the society we are trying to reach is not distracted from the Gospel when I… Read more »
There are just as many “lost” people who are redneck, gun toting, alcohol drinking, NASCAR watching, Kid Rock listening, good-ole boys. Their “culture” is different than the urbanite who has never seen a gun let alone shot one recreationally. While the gospel is the same, the methodology of our missions in reaching each is different. And making wholesale blanket decrees about how Christians should act because some of our evangelism/misisons targets are opposed guns, is nonsense. That is not how you do missions. I would hope you would agree that how a missionary like you reaches those in your countries… Read more »
When writing this piece I thought about comparing this issue with our reaching Muslims with C-5 methodologies. Can I call myself a ‘Muslim’ in order to reach the Muslims. The word means ‘one submitted to God’ so why not? The answer is that the word communicates acceptance of what is completely false (Mohamed is God’s prophet) as well as what is true (I do in fact, submit to God). In American society today the gun culture has radically changed over the last 20 years from, ‘I own a gun and keep it locked up and secure so I can use… Read more »
“My point is that in our society the message of having a gun is heard by rednecks and liberals alike as an idolatrous message.” This statement is simply not true. This is your belief and that’s fine for you, but you cannot superimpose this upon other people, not even rednecks and liberals. Not all people who own firearms are rednecks and not all liberals are against owning firearms. ” The Gospel is more important than our right to bear arms” This statement is an absolute. . . . and many Christ followers who do own firearms know that is an… Read more »
Your last question reveals either a desire to deride strider, or ignorance of Missions work in Muslim areas. I don’t know where he is, but the most likely scenario, were “Strider” to be discovered as an American Christian Missionary, is not that his life would be in danger…more likely is that he would be expelled from the country, ending his missionary work…AND possibly that the lives, or at least livlihoods of the NATIVES he has been working with would be in danger. Concealing his identity protects THEM. (Which is, in my mind, is very related to why I disagree with… Read more »
No Andy, my comment does not do either. My comment is directed his position as he has revealed it here. It seems to me that he believes he should not defend himself from any threat at his personal safety. His use of an alias is a defense against a personal threat to his safety. My contention is that if he is never going to use any defense to threats against his life, then he should use his name, never lock doors, and never take any caution for his safety in public or private. Andy, I do not believe Strider’s position… Read more »
CB, I apologize for the harsh words. I could have stated that with less animosity. I do not know your experience with muslims,
Still, I maintain that you are unfairly critiquing Striders position and actions. As he has stated, his issue is in taking the life of another person. He has not said he is against guarding safety…but only against the taking of human life to do so. To equate his statements with not locking doors, or taking other precautions is not conveying his view accurately.
I also believe his position has inconsistencies, but not in this area.
Andy, I believe that if you read all of his comments again, you will see the reason for my statements. I think he did convey that his would not defend his life. If he did not, then I will apologize.
However, It is still my strong contention that his position (his post here) will not stand biblical scrutiny.
I simply think there is a difference between “I will not use force to defend my life” and “I will not make any effort to preserve the safely of my ministry and those I work with.” I think his position, in this point, can be defended scripturally and historically. Jesus did not defend himself when beaten, but also on a few occasions escaped from those who sought him harm. Early Christian martyrs were willing to die, and did not defend themselves, but also hid in caves. I haven’t seen any comments from him that would contradict this trend. Thank you… Read more »
Andy, The work of Christ in His passion was determined before the foundation of the earth and had specific purpose as you know.
With that being stated, I know we could be called upon to die for the faith. That’s biblical. However, I still contend that Strider’s post, as a whole, will not hold up to biblical scrutiny. I added “as a whole” in hope to clarify my position since I responded to your comment about the Christ.
STRIDER: “If there are those who believe that they should be prepared to protect others with firearms then I will not judge their hearts but I do believe that we are setting up a society based on vigilantism that I reject.” Thanks for the reply. As I said, I do believe that your primary point about gun idolatry has merit for many in America… I simply think you are taking all of this a half-step too far, overstating the problem that Lost society has, AND overstating the proposed solution (no guns). 1. Vigilantism is based on revenge. Protecting innocents from… Read more »
Andy, Thanks for working to understand my points. I think you are understanding me correctly. I am not saying that those who own guns are ‘sinning’. If they are trusting in their guns then they need to deal with their fear and idolatry but my point is to say that in American culture today the Gospel is not being heard. It is interesting to me that the logic used to justify total abstinence of alcohol is very similar to what I am saying about guns. I often say in the alcohol debate that drinking in moderation is biblically permissible but… Read more »
Strider, this:
:They laugh at us and say that we claim to be pro-life and yet can’t wait to shoot someone.”
Brother, this is where you really must be ignorant about licensed gun owners (concealed carry licenses). I know MANY CCL holders who carry most of the time. Every one of them to a person will tell you that the very last thing they want to do, including me, is to have to pull that gun and use it. You are just badly misinformed or really careless in your writing.
I specifically said the criticism was unfair.
You did indeed. So we correct their ignoranc, not capitulate to them.
And by the way, I am as pro life/anti abortion as anyone you will ever meet. But I will not hesitate to use lethal force of any method to stop an attack on my family.
Neh. 4:17-18
“Who were building on the wall. Those who carried burdens were loaded in such a way that each labored on the work with one hand and held his weapon with the other. And each of the builders had his sword strapped at his side while he built. The man who sounded the trumpet was beside me.”
“I regret that I offended you years ago. It seems that you have been unable to hear what I say ever since.” Strider, Don’t try to play that game. You are some righteous martyr here. Was I ever offended by your comments in the past? Yes, of course. You state things that are not right and then declare yourself as speaking from the authority of Scripture. I was challenging your condescending manner on this post alone. That is ample for the present. However, I will state it is my opinion that much of what you write is from a self-righteous… Read more »
I think CB’s last comment should be the last word. I pray that we will all live everyday to glorify Jesus.