Dwight McKissic said something to me the other day that absolutely shocked me. He had called me about another matter, and but he told me something that really disturbed me.
The podium at the SBC Annual Meeting last year was just like me – lily white! When he made his motion to make racism as serious an offense as homosexuality in the SBC bylaws, there was not a single person of color involved in making the decisions. He claimed that there was not a single black man on the stage during the entire convention.
Here’s the thing: I never noticed. It never occurred to me that the leadership of the SBC was exclusively white. I would put my hand on a Bible and swear before a court of law that I am not a racist. I have fellowshipped with predominantly African American churches in Cedar Rapids and Waterloo. When I was a pastor in a southern state, a hotbed of discrimination and racism, and I stood against racism, I preached against it, our church choir sang in black churches and we held interracial joint services (much to the dismay of some of our members). I am not a racist.
But when I was at the SBC last year, it never occurred to me that everyone on the podium was white. I don’t think about the fact that every entity head and pretty much every key administrative position in those entities was a white as a fresh Iowa snow. I just never noticed.
Seeing What My White Eyes Didn’t
But Dwight did. He noticed that Baptists of color have been asked to participate in Baptist life, but not in Baptist leadership (with a few exceptions). Dwight made a motion last year at the convention.
I hereby move to amend Article III, Section 1 of the SBC Constitution to read: “1. One (1) messenger from each church which: (1) Is in friendly cooperation with the Convention and sympathetic with its purposes and work. Among churches not in cooperation with the Convention are churches which act to affirm, approve, or endorse homosexual behavior or racial discrimination and bigotry in any form.
We have made a statement in our constitution that says that we will not fellowship with churches that affirm, approve or endorse homosexual behavior. Pastor McKissic simply wanted to include racism as a sin on that level. He wanted the convention to take a stand that says that we take the sin of racism and discrimination as seriously as we take the sin of homosexuality.
The motion was referred to the Executive Committee. Dwight tried to get a convention vote, but that motion failed. I told him two things that day. First, I told him that it was very normal for the convention to refer such motions. That was not a surprise. Second, I told him I would use whatever position I have to advocate for that motion. Despite indications of sympathy to the motion from the podium, the EC has decided not to recommend it for action. Unless someone makes a motion to the contrary, this issue is dead.
Dwight observed that the podium personalities who referred the motion, and the EC that decided not to pursue it further are as white as they can be. White people decided that we did not need to make a statement against racism in SBC churches.
Dwight is about ready to throw in the Southern Baptist towel. He is tired of beating his head against the wall. He says that the Southern Baptist Convention is a racist haven; that we turn a blind eye to the systemic discrimination and racism that are prevalent in our churches. I asked him if he intends to go to the SBC and try one more time to get a convention vote on this issue. He is not certain at this point, but I got the impression he is tired; tired of the battle and tired of the lack of understanding and support from the leadership of the SBC.
And it is my impression that he believes that the SBC is systemically and institutionally racist!
Is He Right?
Defining racism is a difficult thing. I do not believe that the leadership of the SBC is actively racist. I do not think that they are trying to exclude blacks and other people of color from positions of leadership. I think that they are like me – we just don’t see the problem. I’m white. I neither hate black people nor do I actively wish to oppress them or discriminate against them. I would vote for Dwight McKissic’s motion if it came before the convention. And yet, it never occurred to me that everyone on stage was white. I would bet my spleen that Johnny Hunt did not say to himself, let’s make sure to keep blacks off the stage. He wouldn’t do that. We wouldn’t do that.
But we just don’t see the problem. It would seem that we just do not see the problem like our black brethren do. We see progress. We know that in our hearts we don’t mean to be racist or discriminatory. But they see exclusion. They see white folks telling black folks that there really isn’t a problem with racism.
There’s a lot about this I just don’t know. But here are some things that I know or believe:
The SBC was planted in racist soil
That is a harsh statement, but I think that history bears this out. There was a time when Baptists, even in the South, stood against slavery. But as time went on, Baptist preachers began to accomodate themselves to the cultural norm and even found biblical justification for slavery. When the national Baptist organization enforced a policy that slave owners could not serve as missionaries, the split began which culminated in the founding of the Southern Baptist Convention.
I wish it were not so. But the fact is that racism is a genetic defect in the SBC. Our founders were good men who loved the Lord and wanted to proclaim the gospel. They loved the Word and believed it. But they had this giant hole in their convictions that allowed them to be good Christians and still believe that racism and slavery were okay. How? I don’t know? We all have blind spots, but this was a big one.
The SBC has been a haven for racism
Even when slavery ended, the SBC remained a place where one could serve Jesus and discriminate against black people. My first pastorate was in a Deep South church in the late 80s and early 90s. I was shocked when I saw the deep-seated racism that existed in the hearts of “fine Christian people” in that area.
Our youth ministry put up a basketball goal in the church parking lot so that we could have some “fellowship” games. One day, the goal was gone. It was a crisis. One of our men had seen some black teens playing basketball in a street and invited them to come down to our parking lot and play. They did. When some of the folks saw that blacks were playing basketball on the church parking lot, they removed the basketball goal that day. At next Sunday’s business meeting they “sent the pastor a message” by voting down a close friend as a deacon and taking away my raise for the year. Why? Because some black teenagers shot hoops on our parking lot.
And these people constantly told me that they were not racists! One man, a pillar in the church, told me a story that “proved” that he was not a racist. He and some friends used to go hunting and they would give the black lady who worked for them some of the meat (after she cleaned it of course). His wife gave me a history of the county we lived in. It mentioned the good race relations in the county and attributed this to the fact that the blacks there knew their place and stayed in it!
In the next county to the north, the courts had mandated integration in 1959, and instead of obeying the order, they shut down the public schools rather than integrating them. A whole generation of African Americans grew up without schools because these folks were so committed to segregation. And a majority of the folks that made that decision and enforced it were likely members of Southern Baptist churches. They believed that God wanted their educated separately from black children. Good Baptist folks and racists – at the same time.
I’d love to know what percentage of KKK membership through history has been Southern Baptist. Actually, I don’t want to know.
The SBC has repented of our racism
Things have changed. Even back in the heyday of segregation and discrimination, there were courageous men who took a stand against this blight. And the light began to dawn on us. Finally, in 1995, at our Annual Meeting in Indianapolis, the SBC formally repented of our racist past. You can look here to read the resolution that was passed. I was there and I was thrilled to stand on behalf of our forbears and repent of the institutional sin that had so marked our existence.
I think we have made great strides. A few years ago, I was sitting at a table with some pastors from our association and a pastor told a racist joke. Every one of those white pastors was offended at the joke. A few decades back, we would have laughed and told another one, perhaps. But, on the other hand, we did not move to disfellowship the pastor who told the joke. Maybe in another decade we will be at that place.
But the SBC has taken steps to repair the damage our racism has done. That is probably why men like Dwight McKissic are affiliated with us today.
The SBC is still a white man’s haven
But the simple fact is that the SBC is still a convention run by whites. SBC presidents. Entity heads. Key administrative positions. There have been so few blacks or people of color in any of these positions. And there are still Baptist churches in certain parts of the country that discriminate in less open but nonetheless heinous ways. It is shameful.
We have, by our actions, told people of color that we now want you on the bus, and you can sit anywhere you please. That’s progress, yes. But, the white folks are still the only ones with drivers licenses.
I do not believe that this is intentional. I do not believe our leaders are intentionally exclusionary. We just don’t see the problem, as I did not even notice that the convention podium was an all-white thing last year.
The SBC has not done enough to demonstrate our commitment to racial equality.
Dwight McKissic seems to think that there is institutional racism in the SBC. I’m not sure I agree. But I do think that we have NOT DONE ENOUGH to prove to men like Dwight that we are not racist. Since we have such an undeniable racist past, it is our duty to do everything we can not only to repent of racism (which we’ve done) but also to prove that we will not tolerate it in our midst any more. We have to prove ourselves and demonstrate the genuineness of our repentance. If we did not have the past we have, that might not be the same. But with our past, we have to go the extra mile and prove it! Our words are not enough.
Here are some suggestions:
1) We need to adopt Dwight McKissic’s motion! I don’t even know if Dwight will be there this year. He’s had it. But we need a motion to bring the referred motion to the floor and have a vote. Folks, we have to tell the people of color in the SBC that we are going to be as intolerant of racism as we are of perversion. We took a stand about homosexuality. Let’s take a stand about racism. Let’s tell the world that we are adopting a ZERO-TOLERANCE policy toward racism.
Our past dictates that we must take an aggressive approach in the future. In my humble opinion, the Executive Committee blew it on this one. We need to correct their mistake.
2) Let’s get some driver’s licenses for some of our black leaders. I hate quotas, but we need to instruct the committee on committees that they need to increase black and other ethnic representation on our boards. The next time there is an entity head search committee, could we at least consider some non-white candidates? I would love to know if either the IMB or NAMB search committees ever gave serious consideration to anyone but white candidates.
3) We must be personally intolerant of racism. If I had it to do over again, I would tell that pastor that his joke was not appreciated. Instead of just fuming, and talking about it later with other fuming pastors, I’d say, “There is no place in a Christian organization for racist jokes.” We need to be willing to confront racism.
So, I believe two things:
- Since we have a clearly racist history, the burden on us is much greater to demonstrate clearly that we will not tolerate racism in any form in our convention in the future.
- We have made progress in the last 20 years, but we have NOT done enough.
We can do better!
I’m headed to Council Bluffs and a basketball game tonight (with a stop at Cheesecake Factory – the best restaurant in human history).
Play nice.
East High is headed to STATE! And the Santa Fe salad at Cheesecake Factory was better than ever!
A related item from the EC meeting that bears mentioning in this context: http://bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?id=34708
I am with you with the passage of the motion I am also equally concerned with the idea of quotas but other than the quota how can we show to the world (who is watching) that we are actively progressing in the area. If nothing else surely some of those who help form opinions in the SBC (like yourself) could talk to some of the minority pastors and leaders about running for national office. I personally think that Fred Luter, pastor of Franklin Avenue Baptist Church of New Orleans would be a great SBC President.
I think we can accomplish what we need without quotas.
Here would be my only question regarding the resolution–How would you define a church endorsing racism?? For instance, if a church has openly homoexual members who are participating in that lifestyle we know they endorse homosexuality. What would define endorsing homosexuality? I know. Stupid question. But let’s say Deacon Smith is a racist but he just holds that sin in his heart and isn’t open about it. How would the SBC know, or how would his church know, that there is a problem?
Without question this motion should have been acted on and it’s a travesty that it was not.
Dave, are you suggesting an “affirmative action” type of consideration conerning leadership positions? I’m curious concerning how many white Southern Baptists there are compared to minority Southern Baptists. I would gladly vote on a resolution; but, what I don’t understand is why minorities want minorities in leadership if race isn’t an issue? If the person in leadership affirms the Baptist Faith and Message, why should I care what color he or she is? I don’t understand the gripe? The most-qualified people should be invited for these positions… race should never be a factor. I basically don’t care what color the… Read more »
Here’s the thing, Jared. There is very little danger right now of whites being excluded from leadership in the SBC, so I’m not real concerned about that. However, blacks are (I think unintentionally, but nonetheless actually) excluded from most leadership positions. No, I would not argue a quota system. I am calling for the SBC to do these things: 1) Make it clear that we will not tolerate racism in our midst. 2) Be intentional about including minorities in leadership positions. We just need to be aware of the perception – to see things through the eyes of the black… Read more »
Dave, I’m with you then brother. Whatever I can do, let me know.
Joe, that is the problem with the motion. How do we define racism? Discrimination?
We probably need to work on defining that a little more carefully.
Racism is a form of intolerance. It is inhumane.
There is nothing inherently ungodly about intolerance. In fact, Jesus chastised the churches of Thyatira and Pergamum because they WERE tolerant of false doctrine and immoral practices in the church.
Tolerance is no virtue when it is the tolerance of evil or falsehood.
We are to be intolerant of that which is false or ungodly.
I am advocating that the SBC be intolerant of the evil of racism.
Tolerance, as it is presented in this culture, is often more an evil than a virtue.
Hi DAVID,
You wrote, “I am advocating that the SBC be intolerant of the evil of racism.”
Yes. I see your point and I approve of your statement whole-heartedly.
I am wondering this:
Could you affirm the Bible’s teaching that every human life is sacred, and is of equal and immeasurable worth, made in Gods image, regardless of race OR ETHNICITY ?
You ask a good question Joe. I am not sure we have a good way to know. It is like what Paul said to Timothy, “the sins of some men are conspicuous, going before them to judgment, but the sins of others appear later.” (1 Tim. 5:24) I think we just have to disavow open racism in our ranks and not tolerate it.
The motion would have been a good step in that direction. I pray that it is brought back and enacted.
I’ll save the pessimism for another day, so here are the positive thoughts: 1. We need to definitely encourage more local churches partnering together across ethnic lines. Once a year is a start, but if we start seeing more actions by local churches to break those unnoticed lines, it will help tremendously. Part of that comes back simply to seeing: I’m often told there are only 2 churches around here: Baptist and Methodist. Actually, there’s 2 more: both African-American. Yet the white folks don’t notice them. 2. Part of that working together also could come through associations–it is possible for… Read more »
I’d gladly post it on mine, as well.
Squirrel
Doug, this goes down in the pantheon of excellent starts. Get this guy to write something passionate, something that addresses as many aspects of the issue as possible. I’ll repost, I’ll put it on facebook, I’ll share it with blogging friends of mine. The last time I was on stateside assignment, I met the leader of a BSU (or whatever it is called now) from Alabama. He worked on what he called black college campuses. Said that he was the only state convention or associational BSU director in the state for black colleges and was expected to cover them all.… Read more »
Doug: Go to Dr. McKissic’s blog. He’s been there and done the blog posts over and over again.
Has he done a blog post since the Executive Committee rejected his motion? Not if I’ve got his blog address right. If there’s a good one on his blog that he would approve people copying and reposting, then which post? The idea is a unified effort to raise awareness and to demonstrate that it’s not just one person on one blog with the opinion. That it’s a broadly recognized problem that a larger group is willing to talk about. That white pastors in white churches are willing to put in a public, permanent forum their agreement that things need to… Read more »
I think that Dwight McKissic reads this blog from time to time. So, I will make an official offer to him.
Pastor McKissic, if you want to write something on this subject, I will post it here.
And with your permission, I’ll repost it for my 4 readers. Not just a link back to here.
“”Dwight is about ready to throw in the Southern Baptist towel. He is tired of beating his head against the wall. He says that the Southern Baptist Convention is a racist haven; that we turn a blind eye to the systemic discrimination and racism that are prevalent in our churches.”” This seems like a pretty broad statement to me. Quite frankly, I don’t really look at the “color” of people–at least any more than notice they are distinct. I draw no conclusions from color. Apparently, Dwight does. He equates “racism” with “homosexuality” which really plays into the hands of homosexual… Read more »
I hope a more sympathetic and sensitive spirit reigns. to be cleAr, I think racism is every bit as unnatural perverted and ungodly as homosexuality!
I hope you did not think that my disagreement with being part of “a haven of racism” was insensitive. Though, you are as entitled to be as wrong as anyone else. Also, I did not imply in any way that “racism” was NOT unnatural and perverted, so I hope that is clear. Also, I have a little connection with what it means to be a minority through my wife of 31 years. She is white and went to an all black inner city high school. I can assure you that “racism” is not limited to any one race. Also, I’ve… Read more »
As a Southerner, a descendant of slave owners, I am amazed at how little prejudice I learned in my sharecropper grandparents home in Arkansas. The reason was due in part, no doubt, to the fact that both grandparents had had the influence of good black people on them. My grandfather had wondered into a Black area of Detroit many years beofe I was born, and a Black man helped him get out of thre due to the danger. Later I would learn from my father that a Black man had come into his home, when he was a child and… Read more »
I don’t think there’s much “active racism” in the mainstream of the SBC. It’s just that we’re mostly white, have long been that way, and we don’t think about it or consider changing that fact. We run in the same circles and are very cautious about who we support for things like elected SBC office and committees, and so, since most of us run in mostly-mono-ethnic circles, we recommend the people we know, and the only people we know are just like us. I actually do not personally know an SBC pastor that is not white. I know pastors in… Read more »
Excellent comment, Doug – lots of good insight.
I agree that few SB pastors are intentionally racist. I think it is the kind of thing you described.
But as I have said, our racist past as a denomination obligates us to go the second, third and fourth mile in demonstrating our commitment to calling racism what it is – a sin against God.
We do. I think we’re dealing with another facet of SBC life here as well: It takes so stinkin’ long to get anything really done. Think about it: the CR strategy (please don’t jump on the CR right now, folks, thanks) was a 10-year-plan. 10 years!! In 2 years, Dr. McKissic could take his church out of the SBC (probably less, since they’ve already seen why it wouldn’t be a totally bad thing). In the next 3, he could find like-minded churches to form a missions-sending group with him. In the following 5, that group could support a growing body… Read more »
In an SBC church in the South, my first primary SS teacher at the age of 6 was black. She wore pillbox hats and white gloves every Sunday and would reach over and hold my hand real sweetly when I talked too much. :o)
I can remember my mom talking about how elated she was when Billy Graham refused to segregate the crusades.
Racism is evil and if our brother, Dwight, thinks it exists, we owe him to take that seriously.
I think the problem with Racism in the SBC is the fact that it is NOT the overt KKK racism of the last century. Rather our racism takes a different form. It is deacons going over to that black couple that just walked in, saying welcome, but then mentioning that there is a “better” church that they might be “more comfortable” at just down the street. That church mentioned being mostly black. Here at MBTS several professors have told stories like that that they have had to deal with. And folks…THAT IS RACISM! When a old church in the inner… Read more »
I was really thinking Voddie Baucham for USA President instead.
I don’t look good in a burqua. :o)
I only look good in a burqua. We’re not going there, though.
I have a kaffiyeh. And I look good in it.
Wife doesn’t have a burqua—the Muslim nation she grew up in wasn’t that repressive. She has some lovely dresses, though.
Smusch – I think you are right.
In our Association we have several African American churches. Some began as missions of churhces in our association. Others began on their own. The church that most recently joined us did so after a self study of the Baptist Faith and Message 2000. Then they went before our Credentials Committee where they gave evidence of like faith and practice. We have received them into full standing in our association. Our church has worked with one church in particular in some of their ministry projects. It would be appropriate to say that they graciously gave us opportunity to participate with them.… Read more »
Whether we agree with Dave’s post or not, everyone so far seems to be assuming that large segments of non-whites want a seat at the SBC table and are being denied it. Could it be that many non-whites are just as content with the “most segregated hour in America” as the whites are? Proportionately, there are probably as many “black” churches as “white” ones across the country. They’re just different denominations.
The day a black man is elected to a leadership position in the SBC will be the same day a resolution against gluttony (read buffets) will pass.
I’m sure people said similar things about a Black man being elected president.
Due to a typing mistake I posted an unfinished reply. My point woudl be that I am fully willing to work with any pastor and church that has like faith and practice and mutual respect for each other. As for the SBC, I have voted for minority leaders and will again. But I am not for any kind of quota system.
I like Voddie Bacham and his Family Based Youth ministry. I wonder if that would keep him from being mainstream enough for a SBC leadership positon.
I think your 4th paragraph has a typo. It reads: “But when I was at the SBC last year, it never occurred to me that everyone on the podium was a black person.”
Thanks, you are right. I made the correction.
The old adage applies here, methinks: “Everybody’s responsibility is nobody’s responsibility”. I know Dwight McKissic fairly well, and am honored by such. I’ve worshiped in his church, participated in meetings with him, and eaten at his table. I don’t know a finer man, and if he sees a problem, then there is one. We go, every now and then, to Red Hills Baptist Church, outside Kingston, Jamaica. When we’re there, we’re generally the only whites there. We love them, and they, us. But if we lived there, and the situation was as it is in the SBC, and whatever gifts… Read more »
Dwight McKissic is a great man of God. He has a heart for the SBC and has been active in convention matters for several years. I am proud to count him as a friend. The SBC needs to step up and adopt Dwight’s motion. Racism in the church is an abomination and those churches who support it, either by their action or by their inaction, should not be recognized as cooperating members of the SBC.
Les
What Les said!
I doubt that with special exceptions, you would not seat a jury today that was not racially mixed unless you were courting an appeal; because the insidious, “secret” emotion that is played out over the phones, at some ” special men’s clubs ” is the Underground culture that feeds the controlling few of many of our SBC Baptist churches. The easiest and best way to solve the problem is not by edict, but by example. An example that says we like our culture and our history but we respect you the black or hispanic and your culture and your history… Read more »
My name on my computer is misspelled on one selection and I proof read everything but the name. This is the correct spelling and my briefest thought on the subject.
Thatf isf okayf, Jackf.
Let him who is without typos cast the first stone!
Great post, Dave. I agree with all of this and also agree with Dwight McKissic. In years past, I expressed this sentiment to him personally. I don’t know how actively racist the SBC is if you look at in classic terms. However, unless you are part of the “club,” you have no role in SBC life. And, to be part of the club means that you went to seminary with the club, are known by the club, support the club, and help perpetuate the club, buying the line that the SBC is the last, great hope for Evangelicalism in the… Read more »
I’m tempted to copy this and turn it into a post.
Anytime. Feel free. I really do think that this is the issue. If you ask the average SBCer if they are racist, they vehemently say no. But, our seperation now plays out under the guise of personal preference and choice, which we all play into at the very core of how we do ministry. It is a pretty big deal.
Please do. As one who has been found to be of no use after significant sacrifice and expectation – this summary hits the mark. It’s somewhat cathartic to see someone else actually put it in writing.
Alan,
I think you have hit a very important point. Rather than seek to broaden our fellowship, we are actually planting churches for different groups. I would start giving examples and almost did, but that could get tacky fast, so I will stop there.
Jeff, are you suggesting it is possible to plant a multi-ethnic church in a predominantly exclusive culture? If so, I’d like to know what missiological study, or where in the Scriptures, there is evidence for being blind to culture in regard to planting churches.
My experience in planting two churches has been that you have to plant seed indigenous to the soil and environment. I don’t think it is fair to assume that starting a predominantly Persian work in the Bay Area for people who live and speak as Persians is “racist.” I think that is called, Christian.
The problem is we are not talking about the difference between the average church and ethnic churches (such as Hmong or Chinese). When the average “black” person’s family history has been in America for over a century, just as long as many “white” people’s familes, what we are talking about in churches are not a difference in ethnic origin. We are ALL Americans. And the difference in culture is no different than a difference in economic status. Or are you suggesting that rich and poor should not worship together in the same church? You see in scripture the Jews and… Read more »
Frank: Interestingly Dr. McKissic’s church is both multi-cultural and multi-ethnic. It is growing and could be considered a mega church. I have been there and worshiped a few years ago. It was an amazing experience. It is in fact where I had the privilege of meeting Alan Cross, Bart Barber, Robin Foster and others. It was where Dr. McKissic, I and my husband became friends. A friendship I will always cherish as others have expressed their love for Dr. McKissic.
In answer to the person who asked what the number of whites and blacks is in a position of authority in the SBC this may answer that question. Dr. McKissic wrote on SBCToday in 2008 this “On a visit to the SBC Executive Committee Building in Nashville, Tennessee this past September, I was privileged to take a guided elevator tour of 7 floors. I happen to notice that I didn’t see any African Americans on either floor. When I asked who was the highest ranking African American in the executive building because I wanted to meet and dialogue with him… Read more »
“”I have not felt welcome or completely included in the SBC since that day,””
Debbie, I was not aware you were being excluded for your blackness 🙂
Also, I pastored a church down the street from McKissic and I’d venture to say if his church is not significantly Hispanic, then he has a way to go as much as others.
Why will no one address what it would be like if a white person toured the floors of the National Baptist Convention? McKissic’s experience may mean something–it may not.
“Interestingly Dr. McKissic’s church is both multi-cultural and multi-ethnic.”
I would feel ‘at home’ there. 🙂
Frank, I wasn’t referring to planting churches for linguistic reasons as much as I was thinking of “affinity” group churches. You can make a case for planting a church for an ethnic group, like say the Persian immigrants. But why are we consuming lots of time planting churches for “sub-cultures” like say cowboy or biker churches? Are we saying that we can’t relate to cowboys or bikers without a special church? Are we doing it to avoid the “hard work” of building intentional relationships with people who are a little bit different that us? I know this is a question… Read more »
“But why are we consuming lots of time planting churches for “sub-cultures” like say cowboy or biker churches?” This is an interesting question. I think about the early Church, and how it went out to the far corners of the Roman Empire and beyond, encountering those who had never heard of Our Lord, but who harbored a silent longing for the God for Whom they had been created, and only in Whom they could find their rest. Often, on learning about Our Lord for the very first time, many came quickly into the Church as catechumens and after a time,… Read more »
Jeff, I get your point, though I don’t think I agree. I have been involved with both biker style and cowboy style ministries. I will grant you that they can become narrow and ingrown in theory, but in practice, they become much broader in their outreach. For example, many non-cowboys become involved in the “cowboy” church and many non-bikers become involved in the biker church. I will say this from my experience: I’ve never met a more welcoming or inclusive group of people than those involved in the biker style churches. I do agree any time the purpose is to… Read more »
Frank,
I too have been involved in biker ministry although not a biker church as such. The Dakota Baptist Convention does a big giveaway at Sturgis as a way to share the gospel and I have been able to participate in that ministry and I have become good friends with a couple of guys that pastor biker churches here in the Dakotas. I don’t have anything against those kind of things, beyond what you similarly identified in your comment which is the concern of “cloistering” if I can use that word.
Frank, I would submit to you that missiological studies on this issue in America are usually wrong, taken captive by pragmatism. The problem is that we attempt to plant churches in America along cultural and socioeconomic lines. That is a mistake and only prepares that church for a lifetime of isolation from other cultures. Sure, it “works” better, but at what cost? I do not argue at all that people want to be with people like them and overcoming this is very difficult. It is one of the biggest discipleship issues of our age, in my opinion, and one that… Read more »
Alan, given that your expertise in missiology is correct–I’ll assume that for the moment–how do you plant a multi-ethnic church reaching a segment of the culture that does not speak the language of the planting church? I guess it is pragmatic to at least present the gospel in a language someone speaks, but I don’t see how that is non-Scriptural. How is demanding that a group you want to reach speak your language, eat your food, celebrate your holidays, use your liturgy “living for the other?” That sounds like living for oneself. And, where in the Bible does it say… Read more »
Re: to Frank below, Frank, no, I completely agree that language and cultural differences among first century immigrants is a pretty big deal and it would be counterproductive to try and force everyone into one gathering, especially when there are language issues. One thing that can be done, however, is to have the Anglo churches partner with the language missions through support and fellowship. We are doing this now in starting an Hispanic church/gathering. I am talking about continuing to divide churches according to race, culture, and socioeconomic issues among people groups that have been here in America for 300… Read more »
Alan, I think we agree that “segregation” for personal preference alone is not Godly. I’m not sure we agree that such segregation is much a part of black culture (I’m speaking outside of the South) as it is white. Also, I think that having “cowboy” services or “bikers” services for the purpose of integrating people groups into the life of the church is a helpful strategy. I will agree with you the title, “Cowboy Church” or “Biker Church” seems to fundamentally miss the point of missions. Jeff expresses this idea in a post above. My whole problem with this thread… Read more »
Romans. There was nothing in the surrounding culture that would lead to Paul to desire Jews and Gentiles to form one church rather than First Jew and First Gentile across from each other. We must reach people where they are but our vision fall short when we leave them there. Language mission work, whether it is Persian, Spanish, or Chinese, falls flat when the vision doesn’t extend beyond reaching the first generation to see the needs and just as important the kingdom opportunity with the second generation. We leave those kids sitting in the middle. Building a bridge is absolutely… Read more »
I’m just happy to see this topic being openly discussed. Thank you Dave and Dr. McKissic for making us, at the very least, ponder the issue. Praying something positive will come out of it.
I have not read the comments but changing the name of the SBC would not be a bad idea. It should have been changed decades ago.
Great post….good discussion. I think what is missing in SBC in this issue a plan/path forward. Repentance should be seen as the beginning not the end of our history here. For instance: if a wife found pornography on her husbands computer and he was TRULY broken over it and repented would they just continue on with life as it was before? No, if there was true repentance there would also be a desire on the part of the husband to SHOW the change. So, they would put some safe-guards in place to do as well as they can to make… Read more »
I think that is the key word – intentionality. We don’t need quotas, but we need to, at every level, make choices to break barriers and include people of color.
“We had guest preachers that were black on a regular basis. ”
Did they occasionally turn white? 😉 (sorry, couldn’t resist)
If there were more black mega-church pastors in the SBC, there would be more blacks in leadership in the SBC. It may not be racism but rather our obsession with the mega-church.
What is leadership in the SBC? Is it just being on the podium at the convention? Maybe it includes being a trustee at a Seminary or just being the pastor of a church. Dwight McKissic was/is both and that means that he was in SBC leadership. He raised a theological point in chapel at SWBTS where Southern Baptists do not have agreement and then resigned to focus on being pastor at his church. While I may or may not agree with his thinking on this issue I applaud his actions and integrity but it beings me to the point I… Read more »
I do not understand how anyone who has been a member of or pastored Southern Baptist churches, at least in the South, can fail to see the racism present in them. Maybe they don’t keep a barrel of axe handles in the foyer anymore (there was one in my uncle’s church, in Alabama, in the early ’60s, just in case “the n—–‘s came to try to integrate the church”), but racism is there, smouldering underneath, and waiting for an opportunity to spring out. We all have heard stories, and some of us have experienced them firsthand–I certainly have. Granted some… Read more »
I think there are a lot of churches intentionally making changes, reaching out beyond racial boundaries.
My fear is that if you scratch the surface in a lot of places, you will find that racism and discrimination are just below that surface.
This is an interesting blog–and a dangerous one. It is clear that anyone who does not agree with McKissic’s broad, sweeping, subjective statement that the SBC is a “haven of racism,” is not going to get elected “King for the Day.” Yet, even understanding that risk, I think I’ll proffer an opinion as to some assumptions I think are less than well substantiated. One, there seems to be an assumption that many black pastors desire platform positions at the SBC. I did not say leadership positions because many black pastors have and do have significant leadership positions in the SBC.… Read more »
PS–My 4 month old granddaughter is half-Hispanic and beautiful. I’m a proud, first-time grandpa (though too young of course) and wanted to shamelessly get that plug in 🙂
Thought I might share some thoughts with you of the history of Calvary Baptist in St. Louis where I was baptized and ordained (’57 & ’62) and which church no longer exists except in union with another church and hence with a different name. I did not know that when I joined Calvary, they had turned down an American Indian for membership. Had I known it, I would not have joined as there was rumors in my family of an ancestor being Cherokee (later turned out to be true). After the pastor came who was to be my ordaining pastor,… Read more »
Dave , It would really be a good read if you could get Pastor Dwight McKissic and/or Pastor Fred Luter to comment on any part of this discussion. The timing might not be better.
I wrote on this issue last year. I got little positive response. I know the idea of how to apply this is the sticky issue with some but I think Les said it well earlier, we need to figure this out and get it passed. The SBC in leadership and employees is more white than any of us would ever dream! I do not think this equals racism under the table, or at least I pray it does not, but it does reveal something that needs to be addressed. I have worked with several black Pastors and I honestly do… Read more »
You know what, Tim, you raise a good point.
This ought not be an issue that the black pastors have to push. The impetus should come from US, not them.
I am thinking about this. We need to call for this to be voted on, or present something new as an alternative.
The impetus for all of this needs to come from the white majority.
Black Baptists shouldn’t have to come hat in hand begging for what we should have been theirs 150 years ago – full partnership in SBC life!
Dave, I really do not understand this statement from my perspective in California. I think that it is actually demeaning to the many–and we have many–black pastors. I have been associated with this Convention for over 30 years and I simply do not see now, nor have I ever seen, a black pastor “begging with hat in hand.” I’m not saying this has not existed or may exist in some places but I don’t see it as “rampant” or as widespread (especially in the West) as you put it. I know this is your blog and you can say whatever… Read more »
I don’t think its that hard to understand, Frank. Dwight McKissic should not have to come to the SBC asking us to deal with the problem of racism and discrimination in the SBC.
We should be going to African Americans, breaking down any walls that stand there and intentionally seeking to include them in every area of Baptist life.
It’s a simple point.
It’s simple to you because you cannot see past your personal relationship with McKissic. I get that. That’s why I have not mentioned other issues that would come to the fore if McKissic ever wanted to be a prominent leader in the SBC. And I’m not talking about the color of his skin. We disagree on whether there is rampant hatred of blacks from Massachusetts to L.A. in SBC life. I simply do not see it from where I am sitting. You have no problem with that kind of statement because you have a personal investment in McKissic. No need… Read more »
No, you definitely misunderstand. It has nothing to do with Dwight McKissic. First of all, I had a couple of conversations with him last year at the convention, and he called me last week about another issue and we got to talking. I respect him, but he and I are not exactly BFFs. What I am saying is not because of my personal relationship to Dwight McKissic, which is minimal at best. I am saying that ending discrimination is the job of the majority not the minority. It is our job to tear down the walls, not their job to… Read more »
Dave, you keep arguing a point I’m not making. I agree with what you are saying just not what you said in your post article: the SBC is a “haven of racism.” This implies an overt across the board condition. I don’t think you have sufficient information to indict me (I’ll just talk for myself at the moment) for racism with no evidence. Also, I mentioned all the assumptions that are being made. I think working on the basis of assumptions will be counter productive. I don’t think you can deny that the argument in this thread was greatly based… Read more »
Not wise to make enemies where none exist? What?!?! If as you say, racism is NOT a problem in the SBC, than surely the SBC would have NO PROBLEM condemning racism and encouraging SBC churches to find ways to reach out to “skin colors” different than their own. If such a position and potential resolution would “make enemies”, then that only goes to PROVE there is a racist element in this denomination. Maybe in your ivory towers in California you dont see racism, but even here in Missouri it is obvious. Not only do I see it with my own… Read more »
Smus,, before you fall off your high horse at least frame the argument in truth, rather than your flimsy strawman. I never said racism wasn’t a problem in the SBC. I accept your apology for attributing to me something I did not say. Also, I did not say anything about a resolution making enemies of anyone. I was talking about c alling people racists because they happen to be members of an SBC church. If you think that is a good path to follow to correct the problem you outline, then not much I can say. When you ever get… Read more »
Now you are calling me a racist? And you say I am using strawmen? First it should be worthy of note that I was not raised in the SBC. I “became” baptist through a SBC college, joined a SBC church after graduation, and received the call to seminary less than 2 years after joining. My current church just had our annual gathering with a “black” National Baptist church where one sunday afternoon they come to our church and lead the service, and two weeks later we go to their church and lead the service. Great time, and I enjoy it… Read more »
Frank, trying to converse with you is about as frustrating as trying to nail jello to a wall. I just wish you could converse and share opinions without turning everything personal. Do you think that is possible?
I agree—although we (white majority) need to make sure that it’s not just something to make us feel good, but rather something that: 1. Really works 2. Really works 3. Meets the need as perceived by the minority–by that, I mean solving first the problem as seen by the African-American members of the SBC, not what we white guys think the problem is. For example, someone mentioned that the people ‘on the platform’ aren’t really the most important and if we want to see change, we should focus where it’s most important. But if a first step is to fix… Read more »
Doug, thanks for a well-thought, reasonable perspective on the matter. I thoroughly agree that this is a matter in which geography plays a part.
Agreed as well. We don’t struggle as much with white/black issues here in the Dakotas as we might struggle with white/Native American issues instead. But that struggle is a personal one for some people and not as much at the church level as far as I can see.
Thanks for the compliment, Frank. Every now and then, I try to be reasonable.
Dwight or Fred would get my vote even before this race discussion.
I’m particularly fond of Dr. Luter every since he came on my radar about fifteen years ago. I’ve enjoyed every opportunity to listen to this man.
Dr. Luter would be a fine man to hold any level of leadership in the Southern Baptist Convention.
I had the privilege of having Black people as bosses, Chairman of the Dept, etc., when I was teaching. It was my experiences with them as fellow students, teachers, and as supervisors, that persuaded me that they were as talented, if not more so, than I am, if God so gifted them. I found African Americans to be a caring people, their assimilation of the Christian Faith often surpassed that of their White counter-parts. Today I was reading a biography of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. by Stephen B. Oates. In it the author cited Dr. King as saying: “Arnold… Read more »
Thanks for this post, Dave. Very well-balanced. It concerns me that many of black churches in my town are not particularly orthodox in their teaching. The church I am a member of is historically a white church, but that has been changing slowly over time. God has worked in amazing ways to change the hearts of people in my church who have been racist. A few of our membership and even more of our regular attendees are black. Some well minister with us. In recent times we have engaged in what I would consider significant ministry to black neighborhoods. However,… Read more »
“However, I’ll know we’ve truly crossed the threshold when blacks have significant leadership among us and no one thinks anything is any different.”
Yep!
Dave,
Were you at the 1995 annual meeting? I don’t think it was in Indy.
Just checked, it was in Atlanta.
But that brings up a interesting point. Some people here obviously have a problem with Bro. McKissic’s resolution. How about a simple resolution admitting we have not adhered to the 1995 Resolution, that we now reaffirm what it said, and wish to “re”-strive to eliminate racism in all its forms in SBC life. That may not carry the same weight as Bro. McKissic’s resolution, but it may be enough to get people to think, with out feeling overtly targeted.
I’m old, it all runs together and gets confusing.
I was at the meeting in which we formally repented. I don’t remember when and where. I would have said it was Indy. But that is based on memory.
An interesting followup to this chain of discussions:
http://www.sbclife.org/Articles/2011/04/Sla2.asp
I’m thrilled to see the effort that has been made in this regard and reflected in this report – but time has long passed without any action. Sometimes you need to get the job done without looking for an astronaut to fill the job or begging someone to do it . Even someone with an SBC title attending a black Baptist church where he lives would be a huge step in that direction . Is there such a person that can go without an entourage and maybe include his wife. I doubt it .
I have a tough time understanding how the SBC can have allowed the NAMB to operate as it did and then immediately turn around and give such an important issue only a report. I see it as a ” control issue ” as the rest of the SBC is probably just as messed up as NAMB was/ still is . The report isn’t worth the money it cost to produce it and if that is the best effort our President of SBC can produce then he should step aside. Same ole – same ole and the beat goes on. The… Read more »
I am a on the fence. There are problems that exist. But this is all this brother talks about. I am disgusted with the allusion to the sin of homosexuality and racism. Nice one brother. That’s just poor logic. I would be more impressed with him articulating racism in the National Baptist Convention. I would like to hear him take a blog post or two on black liberation theology. I would love to hear him denounce Jeremiah Wright’s views. I would love to hear a critical analysis of Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson, and how their politics and constant marching… Read more »