Next Friday, The Shack opens nationwide, prompting full theaters, plenty of box office profits, and apparently, a bunch of ticked off conservative pastors.
I get it. I really do.
I read the book when it was first released back in 2007. When I finished, I was simultaneously impressed and fearful. I was impressed because it was truly a riveting novel that deals with real life issues of pain that too few churches are willing to honestly address. I was fearful because the “god” portrayed within its pages isn’t the one true and living God who has revealed Himself to us in Scripture.
The “god” of the Shack is air. It doesn’t exist. It’s a worthless and damnable idol.
My reasons for making such a broad, sweeping claim are numerous, and too many to list here. If you are interested in a detailed theological critique of the book, I really cannot improve upon that given by Tim Challies here. Principally, the author’s view of God as presented in this story reflects an ancient heresy known as modalism–a doctrine that conflates the clear Biblical distinctions between the members of the Trinity and as such, compromises the role each plays in the process of redemption.
There are other major issues as well, but in the end, the biggest problem with the novel is that it presents–as an answer to our deepest pain–the theological equivalent of a flying spaghetti monster. I find it ironic that the main protagonist is played by Sam Worthington of Avatar fame. The Shack is about as accurate in its view of ultimate reality as Avatar.
As a theologian deeply concerned about accurately representing God as He has revealed Himself, these facts concern me. But as a pastor whose responsibility it is to point people to the God of Scripture in the midst of their deepest pain, these facts scare me for the sake of their souls.
So what exactly should pastors do in response to what we all know will take place next Friday?
Last week, I sent an email to our staff reminding them that our church family will not be promoting this film in any way. No one on our payroll is permitted to buy tickets, rent theaters, take groups to the movie, or anything else that would give the impression that Covenant Church approves of this film and its depiction of God. Its one thing to take in a movie as an individual. Its quite another to promote something that is likely to be contrary to Christian faith.
But as a Pastor, I must also recognize another reality. People are going to see this movie! I have told our staff that I will see it, mostly just to compare its contents with that of the book. They too are encouraged to see it as individuals. Why? Because our people are going to be buying tickets. Their non-churched and non-Christian friends will buy tickets too. If when returning to church all they see in response from their leaders is protest, what will they have learned from us?
So, here are three reasons I think EVERY pastor should watch this film, and be ready to interact with its contents with your people.
1. From a cinematic and artistic standpoint, it will probably be an excellent movie. How do I know this? One name: Octavia Spencer! It would appear that audiences can anticipate stellar acting from a phenomenal cast of talented people.
Though it remains to be seen, I suspect that for the sake of time and content, much of the doctrinal substance of the book may be absent from the film, leaving a number of “blanks” that are going to be filled in by someone. Why shouldn’t that someone be a faithful pastor?
One of the biggest and most legitimate complaints about “Christian” movies is that they are, well, terrible! For the most part, this is because the characters are “flat” and issues are all “black and white.” There is very little tension to resolve–only an affirmation of what we already believe so that we can feel good about ourselves. My friend Alvin Reid has observed that “our theology IS black and white, and it should be, but we live lives in color!” He’s right, and I fully expect that this film will demonstrate well the “living color” of our lives–particularly the painful parts. It is possible to enjoy a good movie, or a good book, without blindly accepting everything you read or see. Pastors, this is our opportunity to model for our people how to do just that.
2. The movie will prompt conversations and questions Pastors need to answer. The pain depicted in the book and film is all too real for too many people in our churches and communities. Many people are going to see this film because they think that in it they will find the path to healing. If the “god” presented in the film is compatible at all with the “god” presented in the book, they won’t find it. Or worse, they will think they have found it, and forever be inoculated to the real thing.
If Pastors and church leaders are faithful in responding with compassion to the issues that will certainly be raised as a result of this film, we can point our people and their friends to a God who can bring them genuine healing. But if our disposition causes them to return from the theater, only to see in the pulpit those two old, grumpy guys from the muppets yelling “Boo!” then we miss out on the chance to find real answers.
3. This is an opportunity! The most foundational question of faith is “Who is God?” If you get that question wrong, it only goes downhill from there, and this is the fundamental danger of a book like The Shack.
But great opportunity lies here as well for pastors. This film will prompt conversation about God, and who He really is!
Pastors who don’t willingly join that conversation are derelict in their duties both to Christ and His people.
People in our churches are going to see this film. Their non-Christian friends will see it as well, and our people need to be equipped to have those conversations by pastors who model how to do it well. So let’s not merely shrug our shoulders and allow our people to absorb idolatry unknowingly. But conversely, let’s be more than the grumpy old guys who pour cold water over people’s warm experiences with no explanation why.
Let’s engage. And in doing so, lets faithfully give people the real thing!
Editor’s Note: Dr. Joel Rainey is the Lead Pastor at Covenant Church, Shepherdstown, West Virginia. This was originally published at Joel’s blog, themelios.
Well said. Amen.
Joel, one point that Challies makes in a recent blog post is that he will not see the movie to review it, because he believes it to be a violation of the second commandment. What are your thoughts on this?
Hi Josh, I respect Challies, but don’t agree with his assessment here. Anthropomorphic depictions of God are not inherently a violation of the 2nd commandment, as the intent of that command in context is, I believe, to prohibit any created thing from becoming an object of worship. Such depictions of God don’t inevitably lead there, so the presenation of God as a black woman is really not one of my concerns. In fact, I would contend this to be one of Protestantism’s huge mistakes in history–removing art and icons for fear of a 2nd commandment violation. It’s why most Protestant… Read more »
Good thoughts, Joel. Your post makes me want to think through some of the issues you brought up about whether to see it or not.
I would feel comfortable saying to my people, “While we don’t vouche for it, let’s go see it together so we can discuss it.” Sounds pretty much like what we should say about any movie (or even Sunday School curriculum).
I read the book, and I think most including you and Tim Challis do not understand the book at all. I have heard Paul Young speak and briefly had the opportunity to meet him and I think you guys have it wrong. God is God. He is also a very personal God who meets us where we are and gives us what we need. He is there in times of personal grief. Grief so strong that one cannot seem to go on with life until getting through what seems impossible to get through. And we can’t on our own. This… Read more »
I think this post and that of Tim Challis accurately characterized the message of the book. It is a heretical explanation of how God relates to us when we are in need.
I agree with Debbie whole heartedly. I read the book when it first came out. I read all the negative feedback that the Churches were saying. I am glad that I chose to let the Holy Spirit guide me. I not only read it once, I actually read it several times. I found it the most compelling book I have ever read. I was extremely impressed with the creative liberties that the author took in the writing of this book. I was not jolted with the fact that God was depicted as a Black woman like many pastors were. Later… Read more »
Denise, I think you are seriously mistaken about this, but I respect your perspective. However, as a pastor, I would not “forbid” my congregation from seeing this movie. I would warn them, that in my view it has serious problems by misrepresenting God, but I would encourage them to base their beliefs on Scripture not this book or a movie based on it. I’m not afraid of this movie but I am concerned about how easily people are lead astray by attractively packaged lies. Your comment is kind of an illustration of the problem. You have immersed yourself in the… Read more »
Denise, While I appreciate your comment and the heart it comes from, I must take issue with one point in your post. You said “I chose to let the Holy Spirit guide me.” Denise, the Holy Spirit is not going to “guide you” to something that is contrary to God’s Word. It is just not going to happen. Why? Because Jesus has told us, in scripture, that the role of the Holy Spirit is to be our Counselor. To guide us to heresy, which contradicts God’s Word, would be the opposite of godly counsel. The problems with The Shack are… Read more »
Thank you for your comments Denise. I am in agreement. Have a wonderful day. Cindy
It is a very dangerous thing to re-image the Trinity and put words in God’s mouth that he has not spoken. This movie and book could very well be beautifully packaged poison. I don’t encourage boycotts and protests of movies because such a reaction tends to cause more people to be curious and see them. But I will warn people in our church and we won’t be taking a church group to see this.
Steve: Have you read the book?
Steve, I have read your comment on my post and I am glad you will not forbid your congregation from viewing this movie. Just to clarify, I have not been led astray by the very colorful content of this book. I do, however, take a different perspective than You. There is so much garbage in this world and in the Cinema that when there is something, anything produced that encompasses any part of God… I feel like yelling Hallelujah! Instead of focusing on all the negativity that the viewing of this movie MIGHT cause your flock, why not see the… Read more »
absonjourney, I appreciate your comments. Unlike others who chose to rip and tear in their comments, Yours seemed to be genuine. I believe that if God can speak through the mouth of an ass that he can surely speak through anyone…even a Christian author…even an unconventional allegorical book. I am not a Baby Christian…I do hear from God. Yes, the Holy Spirit did guide me to this book at a troubling time in my life. Shortly before reading the book, my extended family suffered a horrible tragedy. A family member was babysitting the 3 year old child of another family… Read more »
I am actually glad you are going to see the movie, I am. I think it will put it more in its proper perspective to see it on screen in a movie Paul Young is promoting and endorsing.
Debbie, yes I have read the book. I am very concerned because it seeks to give explanations for things–from the mouth of God himself–which while fascinating is very dangerous. If I wrote a book of theology and wrote it in the first person and claimed I was God speaking and gave my theories about how to solve all the big issues like freewill, eternal security, predestination, etc., readers might think I was on pretty thin ice. The Shack is a fictional story but it’s a story about a series of conversations in which God explains things to a hurting man.… Read more »
I’ve never been a big movie goer, but also as a pastor never been one who sees a heresy or conspiracy behind every cartoon and movie that comes out. Because of the business of this time in my life, I usually catch movies edited for TV about 10 years after the fact (but do make a special effort to get to one once in awhile). I recently watched Million Dollar Baby because it was on TV and I had some spare time and needed a break. I thought it was a very well done movie that really drew you in,… Read more »
I read the Shack when it came out. I was also surrounded by the hysterical attacks on the book from some in the Christian community. I appreciated Young’s willingness to face a really hard situation and lean into his faith. I still do. As the years since the book have passed my reaction to the book is “meh”. There is no life, no power here. The Shack offers no enduring meaning or insight to the reader. Those who “sat up all night” to read the book have long since moved along to more meaningful, substantial discussions of our faith or… Read more »
Good point of view Joel. I would post a wonderful, very lengthy, but wonderful post by Randy Alcorn on this issue that I think would address some of the comments that Debbie and Denise made, but alas links are not allowed. I only direct people to Randy’s website Eternal Perspective Ministries and find his article on the front landing page titled “The Shack: Biblical Discernment Is Key in Evaluating Any Book or Movie”. This book and movie is ripe with theological and biblical error and really is garbage, but as pastors, I think we may have to wind up seeing… Read more »
Comments automatically go into moderation if they contain more than one link. This is to prevent spam. If you include only one link, it should post. If you include more than one and it is appropriate, I will approve the comment.
If you are speaking of Randy White, I would disagree with him. BTW I am Southern Baptist and would disagree with your conclusions. I can’t see how you can read the book and come to those conclusions. Either it was skimmed through or not read.
No, it’s Randy Alcorn
Randy Alcorn. Okay I too am a Southern Baptist I don’t know what that has to do with the discussion. I would challenge you to read his analysis here: http://www.epm.org/blog/2017/Feb/20/shack-movie-book-discernment The author rejects that the Godhead has no hierarchy. He states that extra-biblical revelation from the Holy Spirit is on par with Scripture. The Son clearly submits to the Father and the Holy Spirit both proceed from the the Father and the Son. Scripture is clear on this. The author also holds to the ancient heresy of modalism. I’ve read the book twice and both times came to these conclusions.… Read more »
JamesR: I would disagree with you and reply that you can’t speak for all people. You would have no idea to be able to make that statement. It changed me profoundly. And I still remember the book fondly.
Not everything in the book is bad and I think the author is trying to help people deal with evil and suffering in a thoughtful way. But because of the direct portrayal of the Trinity and the questionable theology put in the voice of God, it is something I could not recommend. William Paul Young is seeking to communicate theology (an understanding of God) through this book and there are reasons to be concerned about what he is saying. The review by Randy Alcorn among others fairly expresses man of these concerns.
James Forbis: If you are speaking in terms of eternal submission. We would have a deep disagreement. I actually hate the teaching of eternal submission because it is not in scripture clearly.
This is a fiction novel. The Bible is the Word of God. He is also a living God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. Jesus is God. Obviously, we are not to be of this world but we are surrounded by untruths every day. Listen to the Holy Spirit whether you should attend any movie out there for that matter. I don’t think people are looking for the truth in this movie but if it gets them asking questions about the true God–you came to earth to shed His blood and paid for our sins then… Read more »
I know this is the thing to debate today (I have not read the book) but is it the most important debate needed? Is there a greater heretical message being preached each week in many of our sister SBC churches? Churches preaching to tickle ears… Sermons with an empty gospel… Sermons not designed to equip the saints… Sermons which are culturally relevant but cross negligent… Are not these things more important to stand together on and work together to see come to an end? Isn’t there a great harvest ready to be gathered in the pews? Shouldn’t we a stand… Read more »
Joey: I’m not disappointed. I just think if one rejects something it should be what is actually in the book.
Someone condemns a book, then instead of reading and thinking for oneself, another article is written condemning something not read or seen. But I’m not disappointed at all. I am simply stating my view of the book, and just because I am a woman, I am theologically trained. I am Southern Baptist for a reason as well. My parents were not nor were my husband’s so it is a matter of agreement and choice.
Jon, I like your comment…
I, too, have great concern for the lives that will be impacted by the upcoming movie, “The Shack.” I’ve read the book twice, first for mere recreation and then for academic pursuit. I’ll likely read it again as better to prepare myself with what will undoubtedly be praises from my lesser theologically trained church members. My first encounter with The Shack was at my mother’s urging. She is not a theologian in the least. At times we don’t have a lot in common, so when she reads or watches something “right up my alley,” I usually indulge her. I’m glad… Read more »
Joey – I am glad you are protecting your flock, though that was not the jest of my comment. Since you brought it up… How many people in your flock saw Noah or Moses? Out of that number how many people came to you and you had an in depth theological discussion concerning the movies? How many do you think you will have come to you in the same way concerning The Shack? “I’ll likely read it again as better to prepare myself with what will undoubtedly be praises from my lesser theologically trained church members.” How wonderful that you… Read more »
Jon, 3 or 4 for each. Not a large number, but enough . Lessers in this sense is not meant as insulting, but the reality that some are no where near as theologically astute as others. Most are “babes in Christ.” A few are those who’ve never grown spiritually. At least one is the type to let things like “The Shack” serve as an extra biblical source of inspiration. Back to your original point: there are many things we as Pastors have to tackle (from the pulpit, one on one, in meetings), but we cannot dismiss things like cultural references… Read more »
Joey, you have absolutely no idea who I am or what my personal relationship is with The Father, the Holy Spirit or Jesus Christ, my Lord and Savior!! My God is bigger than a Theological argument!!! I criticized Pastors for their lack of Faith, not for their concerns. What trouble are my comments causing? You are not only miss reading what I posted; but, you are also putting words in my mouth that I did not speak. God created us to be thinking, feeling, seeing, hearing, and breathing human beings. If you have a problem with feelings than I suggest… Read more »
Joey: To say, just turn to the scriptures for comfort is not to know the deep pain that some go through. And there is then no need for preachers, teachers or revival services. Just read the scripture and that is just not true.
No, we guide them through it. My point was, if you’re looking for material to help people in grief, why not use things that can help them truly grow closer to God, Scripture. On that basis, there is a need for preachers, teachers and revivals. Using something like The Shack might make them feel good, but ultimately it will not help them walk closer with God, namely because the god of The Shack in not Yahweh, the Lord of Heaven and earth. The Jesus of The Shack is not the Jesus of the Gospels. The Holy Spirit of The Shack… Read more »
The cousins from the family tragedy and the cousins that were psychologists were from two different families. I thought I needed to clarify.
Why do so many women seem to be the main advocates of this book? Not ALL women, but most of the fans or endorsers seem to be of the “weaker vessel”?
Adam: To refer to women as “the weaker vessel” is your usual garbage statement.
Um. Debbie. See Bible. Not an insult.
If you would read your Bible correctly. He is talking about wives not women in general and he’s speaking about honoring them not treating them as second class as you presumably would like it to say.
It says heirs, not inferiors. The misquoted version leaves out the entire second half of the verse. The reason husbands should treat their wives with understanding and honor.
Cindy,
That’s way off base. Of course Peter is talking about women in general. Yes, this particular Scripture refers to wives, but to follow your logic, women are equally yoked as men UNTIL their married, at which time they become weaker vessels. If this were truly the case, I’d urge women everywhere to never marry.
Perhaps Adam did use this as a “theological jab,” but his question has been overlooked by each of you: Why is it that WOMEN are the chief advocates of this book? Instead of attacking Adam’s choice of words, why not tackle his argument?
Tarheel: I would recommend that you read Adam’s entire comment. And no it is not biblical Tarheel. I should list for you the reasons why it is not true just from a practical side, but if I have to list them …well let’s just say I shouldn’t have to.
Adam G. from NC,
Biblical truth draws retaliation, doesn’t it? Kind of serves as the greatest example of what we’re debating here. To answer your question, I have found truth in the saying “Women think with their hearts.” Quite often that can be a good thing. Women can be some of the best ministers simply because they respond from the heart. However, feeling, as seen with responses to “The Shack,” can be a detriment.
Joey’s comment deserves a Theological Lesser trophy.
I guess you “felt’ you needed to make such a comment.
Someone owes the ladies here an apology.
It seems lately the Bible is pointed to at one’s convenience. Where was it used in other recent matters? It wasn’t. If this is going to become a thread to put down women, we are not the ones sinning by reading the Shack. I for one will not tolerate the berating of women. I don’t condone it against men. But of course being a woman, I won’t condone it here either just because you disagree. For some silly reason this too seems to be an area some people just want to be jerks instead of simply disagreeing. I am not… Read more »
And yes, thank you Jon.
Good comments Cindy.
/\
I didn’t say any of you ladies were “going to hell” for reading this theologically errant book (see: William Paul Young’s Universalism). Just wanted to know WHY they were it’s most ardent defenders…here and elsewhere.
And yes, I was taking a dig at our resident istorian feminist. I just wanted to hear her position defended in it’s normal tone. Sorry. I’m ready to hear the defense now.
***I don’t comment on here in like, 6-months and it’s already like old times!
Welcome back, troublemaker. 😉
Adam, that statement was sexist and derogatory.
What a self righteous comment. Are you ever weak or do you have it all together? This is a fiction novel, not the Word of God. I think the majority of Christians know this.
Here is a reason to avoid any and all consideration of The Shack! 1. God the father was crucified with Jesus. 2. God is limited by his love and therefore cannot practice justice. 3. God forgave all humanity whether they repent or not. 4. All hierarchical structures are evil. 5. God will never judge people for their sins. 6. The Godhead has no hierarchical ideal structure, just a circle of unity. 7. God submits to human wishes and choices. 8. Justice will never take place because of love. 9. There is no such thing as eternal torment or judgment in… Read more »
Tom, each of those standing alone ought to be sufficent reason to avoid “the shack” and to discourage others from reading it – but compiled in a list like that there should be no question.
Thank you Tom.
Rejecting depictions of God that violate Scripture isn’t “putting God in a box” or “refusing to listen to the Holy Spirit.” Rejecting such pictures is an admission that God can’t be put in a box, because we have listened to the Spirit, who testifies to the truth of His written Word.
My comment was about that scripture that men are to treat women with respect and love and care and he was speaking about a husband and wife relationship. The person who commented in this post wasn’t to lift up women to me it was to look down on them for reading the book and having an opinion. Like I have said in my comments before this book is a Novel and not the Word of God. Do you listen to wordly music, watch wordly tv shows and read other wordly books. I believe the Holy Spirit in our life will… Read more »
Thank you Jon. Men and Women both serve a great purpose to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ. We should Love one Another especially as Christians, this world is tough enough. Have a Blessed day.
Christian fiction is not necessarily bad ..
However, when one wants to truly understand who God is and his plan in the world – then the place to go for that is where he’s intentionally revealed himself to
Us – His word.
5 year olds nor the author of this book have any new revelation about God, who he is, or his work in the world… that’s already revealed to us in the word.
Tarheel: Have you ever experienced God, the Trinity, for yourself, in times of grief or in times of searching scripture? The Godhead is personal. They come to us in times of grief in ways that are beyond description. God is in the Bible, to be sure. But he is also in our lives. He touches us, He comforts us literally. And it’s amazing.
“Have you ever experienced God, the Trinity, for yourself, in times of grief or in times of searching scripture?”
Absolutely. The way to experience God is through his word. The Holy Spirit works through the word.
Here is the deal:
If the Shack “brings you closer to God” but the “god” described in the Shack is not the God of the bible – and its absolutely not – then it’s to a false, man designed false “god” to whom you are being drawn.
Of course Tarheel the book in question must be “Christian fiction.”
The god of “The Shack” is not the Christian one. So merely “religious fiction” would suffice.
Rob
One thing I noticed as I have read the comments here is that they have revealed a great need: theologically sound Christian fiction that can reach the emotional heart and the intellectual head simultaneously. Of course the characters need to be deeply realized people who are not caricatures or otherwise act in unrealistic ways . And the plots need to be realistic, entertaining and without plot holes.
The Shack took on a serious theological problem head on. In the end it offered an empty solution. But…its a challenge. If the men in the pulpit offer theological criticism about the faults of The Shack but lack the courage to engage big, difficult issues with the truth of the gospel in a way that is full of grace and full of truth, then they are the ones who are failing. Your people are not going to take comfort in your criticism of modalism when they don’t know how to think about the suffering of their loved ones or the… Read more »
That’s a really good point. When we don’t deal with these issues as the Body it’s very easy for someone to bring poor theology that attempts to answer those questions and “answer” them in ways that counter orthodoxy.
Yet another reason those who teach and preach should always seek to present the whole counsel of God and not just self help.
Good word JohnR.
I agree with you Denise. I don’t agree with Paul Young on everything. I believe theology to be important, yet as Denise said and I’m going to put it in my words so hold on to your hats boys. You are so busy being uptight about theology, no one has a chance to breath or discover things from your congregations. I am pleased to belong to a church that allows disagreement on such things and even listens while teaching from scripture. We are free to discover theology on our own. You guys may not be discovering the best parts of… Read more »
Debbie, I appreciate what you are saying and I reject the gender disrespect some of this conversation has engaged in. Here’s my problem with this book and movie. I agree we shouldn’t nitpick religious novels and films and we should focus on the good things that are conveyed. The issue with the Shack, for me, is that the distortion is about God himself: reimaging the Trinity and having God say things that are at least questionable. Let’s say someone reads the Shack (or sees the movie). They are really drawn to how God is portrayed and they resonate with the… Read more »
Hi Steve,
I’m not sure I get your point totally because God the Holy Spirit doesn’t strike us dead when we lie today, not that He couldn’t because He is God. So I’m not quite understanding that part of your comment.
Good answer Cindy.
Steve: Cindy answered very close to how I would answer your point.
Steve: Ministers need to let go of their grip on people. Preach the Bible, but allow people freedom in this area. I think you would be surprised at the results.
Cindy, I’m grateful that God doesn’t usually bring judgment on us immediately (who of us would still be here?), but do you think he doesn’t sometimes still bring such judgment upon people? The Bible does say in Romans 1:18 that “the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness.” This is present tense, not just a future reality. I think we need a greater awareness of the holiness of God, as well as his amazing mercy and love. Also consider what Scripture says in 1 Corinthians 11:30 about those who were taking the Lord’s Supper in… Read more »
Steve: He will not zap you for the Shack. We are His children. The way to heaven is Jesus Christ. The Shack is not going to bring the wrath of God(which he does not have on his children) down on you. We are his children Steve. No, he does not bring down judgement for something like this.
BTW Thank you for the statement on women.
I think that you don’t think you control your people Steve. And I say this with no malice.
The Bible should always be read as a whole book, not broken up with a piece here and a piece there Steve, remembering as you read, the Bible points to Christ. Yes, God tells us some things about Himself, and He gives us instruction, but look at the passages of how God loves us, cares for us, understands us, etc. We have freedoms, not being bound up in a bunch of theology. He is a personal God to each of us, and as Cindy and Denise have pointed out can’t be bound up in a box. I think you would… Read more »
Sometimes theology can blind you to God.
I also don’t think we should put God in a box. If He can reach Atheists I’m sure He can reach someone searching out who God is from a book they have read. Many people have grown up in churches not having a personal relationship with God and accepting Him later on. He is a loving God and He knows our heart if we are really searching to know God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit for His salvation by His blood He shed for us. I don’t have fear of this book.
Cindy,
That is one way to look at it.
Another way is to see what the Bible says: that no one seeks God (Romans 3) no not one, and that no one comes to Jesus unless drawn by the Father. (John 6)
Feelings are important, Jesus wept did He not. But theology matters as well. Feelings can oscillate but right doctrine is the Rock on which we stand, for Jesus is the Word of God. The Good Book speaks of Him and thus Truth for He is the truth.
Having now read all the comments in this thread, along with the post (good post, BTW), I see that the atmosphere of the thread is at the perfect temperature to declare that the “use of alcohol as a beverage is unwise.”
Hahaha CB.
John 3:16: For God so Loved the World that He gave His only begotten Son that Whosoever Believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Also: 2 Peter 3:9. The way I read your comment is that God picks and chooses who will be saved. I believe that He puts a desire in all of us to know Him but we can accept or reject salvation because we have free will. Other than writing a whole book here whenever we make comments we can’t fully explain ourselves or articulate our beliefs. I believe in 2 Timothy 1:7 For… Read more »
Cindy, My comment consists of what the Scripture says.: No one seeks God, no, not one. and that no one comes to Jesus except drawn by God. When anyone puts what they *think*is true because it sounds *good* to them over the Word of God, they are in essence sitting in judgment on God and on His Word instead of allowing the Word to guide their life and understandings. So while you *think* life is one way, God is telling us something different. Yes, people reject the Gospel freely and in accordance to their will and their desires and understanding.… Read more »
Debbie, I never said God will “zap” anyone for reading or watching the Shack! What I tried to say, however imperfectly, is that if someone is influenced to think of God as the one portrayed in the Shack, that person may have a hard time relating to the way God is actually revealed in the Bible (such as those occasions when he did send judgments on people like Ananias and Sapphira). I think the Shack portrays God more as Oprah might than as the Bible actually does. Some of you surely disagree with that assessment and I respect that. But… Read more »
I agree that “theology can blind us to God” and that we “shouldn’t put God in a box.” But the answer isn’t to forsake theology but to bring our theology to the Word of God, not simply to our feelings or experiences. In Acts 17:11, after Paul preached to the Jews in Berea, they compared what Paul was saying to the Scriptures. “Now the Jews were more noble than those in Thessalonica, they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things (what Paul was preaching) were so.” We should have the same approach.… Read more »
Trust God and His Word Steve and if you will look in that Bible, all 4 of Paul Shack’s personas in this book are God albeit in One Person. He is all 4 characters in this book, personality wise. He is very involved in our lives on a personal basis just like in this book. It’s in the very Bible that I read and study and you read and study. In times of grief, in times of hard experiences, He comes to us personally, much like in this book. Is He not God in three persons? Paul Young has 4… Read more »
Debbie,
How interesting. God’s personality wrapped up in 4 entities.
Easy to say. Harder to show. Comparing 4 entities to the Triune God.
Care to show how your belief in the truth of the book plays out?
Do people seek God? Yes. But from there you will seek the LORD your God, and you will find Him if you seek Him with all your heart and with all your soul. -Deuteronomy 4:29 When You said, “Seek My face,” My heart said to You, “Your face, LORD, I will seek.” -Psalm 27:8 The humble shall see this and be glad; and you who seek God, your hearts shall live. -Psalm 69:32 Seek the LORD while He may be found, call upon Him while He is near. -Isaiah 55:6 Yet they seek Me daily, and delight to know My… Read more »
David,
In each of the passages you referenced, the seeker is already a person of faith.
No one seeks God unless God draws them to Himself.
lets look at one:
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. -Hebrews 11:6
No one comes to God without faith. Faith always precedes godly choice. Faith always precedes any choice pleasing to God.
You haven’t presented a different side of the story.
Parsonmike, Kind of arbitrary that you dismiss all the above verses by saying none of them refer to the lost. Of course they do. People do seek God before they are saved. In Acts 10 Cornelius sought God before he was saved. Nicodemus sought Jesus (John 3). The Rich Young Ruler sought Jesus (Matthew 19; Mark 10; Luke 18). Isaiah 55 begins with, “Ho! Everyone who thirsts, come to the waters.” Notice the word, everyone. Then Isaiah 55:6 Seek the LORD while He may be found, call upon Him while He is near. Then Isaiah 55:7 Let the wicked forsake… Read more »
David, Who sought God and wasn’t saved? No one. So WHY were they seeking God? One reason is that they were being drawn by Him to Himself. Now as to your examples. First let us recall the verse in Hebrews: But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him. -Hebrews 11:6 Cornelius was a believer, a god-fearer. Was Peter saved before Pentecost? Acts, as you well know, depicted a transistor time where those who were believers in… Read more »
Parsonsmike. And thus people can see the difference between Calvinists and those who are not. Are you really saying a person has to be saved, before they can seek God? I simply appeal to the Scripture listed above and that man has a real free will and can choose or reject salvation. By the way, the Rich Young Ruler sought Jesus to ask about eternal life, yet rejected Jesus. Matthew 19:16 Now behold, one came and said to Him, “Good Teacher, what good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?” Mark 10:17 Now as He was going… Read more »
David, I am saying that according to the Scriptures those who seek God are those drawn by God and those who are saved by God. They are those who are taught by the Father and have learned from Him. I never used the word, “saved”. Now you are “simply appealing” that a man has real free will and can accept or reject salvation. The Scriptures tell us that a man accepts or rejects salvation, that is true. AND they tell us why he accepts or rejects. Now everyone knows that people have free will. Every day we make choices to… Read more »
Parsonsmike,
So according to you, a man has to have his theology perfectly correct to “seek God”?
Sorry, I don’t buy it.
I will continue to preach,
Seek the LORD while He may be found, call upon Him while He is near. -Isaiah 55:6
And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart. -Jeremiah 29:13
But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. -Matthew 6:33
I believe these verses apply to the lost, and to the saved.
David R. Brumbelow
David, I think if you re-read what I have written above [or anything else I have ever written anywhere for that matter], you will not find me saying that or even coming close to saying that. In fact, i have no idea where you got that idea from. So please don’t buy it nor repeat it. You could, though, explain what brought you to that erroneous conclusion. Now I do hope you will continue to preach the Word of God, both the verses you posted AS WELL as the rest of God’s Word. The call we give goes out unto… Read more »
David Brumbelow: Exactly.
Okay, one more time into the breach. Debbie, we’re not going to agree on the value of the Shack. You find much to appreciate in the way God relates to Mack. I respect that. I have tried to say that at the same time there are things that are said by “God” to Mack and the whole re-imaging of God that are troubling and questionable from a what I think the Bible teaches. You seem to respond that I shouldn’t be concerned about these things and shouldn’t let my theology limit God. I don’t believe seeking to base one’s theology… Read more »
Steve, Every false teaching about God contains some truth or else it would be easily be recognized as a blatant lie. So when people say they get truth from the Shack, it is truth that they can and should get from the Bible. But when they get the truth from the Shack it is also mixed with error making the truth they get tainted and impure and that makes it a lie. I doubt you will find any, NOT ONE, of the Shack’s defenders actually show how the book gives them truth without error. Jesus is the only true image… Read more »
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. [Hebrews 1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things came into being… Read more »
Mike, I don’t disagree with you. Thanks!
Steve: You know I went to a church once that had brochures on why Bill Gaither music is heresy. I dismissed it, while wondering why someone would disregard Gaither. I put the Shack in that same category of perspective. God is all the things that these 4 entities in the book portray and it’s wrong to believe that God is going to zap someone now or in the future, which is the meaning of the word danger, it’s simply not true. It’s not dangerous. You may not agree with the theology but it’s not dangerous. Danger and heresy seem to… Read more »
Debbie,
It seems you are saying that God is not a Theological SBC Fundementalist.
What are we going to do?
I’m just glad He is not a Calvinist… or is He?
Got to go. Helping my wife iron and do dishes. I will repent when I’m done.
Yes Jon that is exactly what I am saying. Thanks. You said it better than I could have.
Debbie, thank you for your comment about Paul Young and your church. It helps make clear where you are coming from. In response to your recent comments: I am grateful for God’s incredible grace and patience. To the extent the Shack helps people grasp this I am glad. But God also calls us to be wise about deceptions and false teaching which can bring harm into our lives in many ways. And yes, sometimes God expresses his righteous judgment against false teachers and brings severe chastisement against his children (to prevent worse harm). We won’t agree about the Shack. But… Read more »
Correction: There were 3 entities not 4. I was referring to “Papa” who also had another name.
“We stopped carrying ‘The Shack’ a few years ago,” LifeWay Director of Communications Carol Pipes emailed BP, “because although it is a work of fiction, the theology presented as integral to the story clearly conflicts with the Bible on many issues, especially in regards to the character and nature of The Trinity.”
http://www.bpnews.net/48411/the-shack-film-stirs-debate-as-did-preceding-book
David R. Brumbelow
Good for Lifeway.
This is Tuesday, the Shack opens Friday.
Of interest, there are still no reviews [ rottentomatoes dot com ] which sometimes indicates the movie is so problematic that no reviews will be allowed to “pan” it before it is released. However, because it is a “Christian” movie maybe they’re just concerned non-Christians will give it a poor review.
Variety’s take: and I think they actually got it right: And that’s just what “The Shack” is: a close encounter with God that’s like an instruction manual for those who prefer their faith mixed with sentimental teardrops. There’s an image of conservative Christianity as living on the opposite shore from Freudian therapy, but “The Shack” demonstrates how the two have merged. Mack must take a journey into the past to heal his demons, and to forgive the original sinner: his father. And he does it with the support of his new trio of counselor peeps: Jesus, the Messiah-as-mensch who teaches… Read more »