I like to dialog with people, either personally or online, as long as things don’t get ugly. I’m not good with real conflict. I will happily stake out a position and defend it. Sometimes I’m good at it, sometimes I’m not. If you’re like me, sometimes you just throw something out there and realize that you don’t have the tools or knowledge to defend it well. In that case I do a little more research to see if my case is stronger than I think, or perhaps I need to rethink my position. But one thing I always try to do now, and I’m getting better at it, is to see the other side. I no longer just want to promote my own opinion, I want to see why others have a different one, and understand it if I can. It doesn’t mean I’ll change my mind (but I might), but I find it makes for a much better dialog and a more mutual respect between me and the person I am speaking with. And there is another advantage. When I first began interacting on the internet, I would happily keep beating a dead horse well past any chance of a beneficial outcome. Topics could be Calvinism, moderationism, or whatever. Once I really started trying to see the other side, I found I could walk away. I still jump in and make my point, but I don’t have to keep re-making my point over and over again. That’s beneficial to me, and to those on the other side of whatever issue is on the table.
Nothing is perfect, however, especially me. Sometimes I can’t see the other side. I can’t put myself in their place. Sometimes I cannot see how any rational person can come to a different conclusion than the one I have arrived at. When that happens, I find I can’t let the subject go, and the dead horse just keeps getting beaten. So in case anyone is interested, I thought I’d jot down some fairly hot-button issues and where I am in regards to them.
I am a Baptist, but I can easily see why many others aren’t. I’m a firmly committed credobaptist but I see the points made by paedobaptists, even if ultimately I’m unconvinced by them. I am an old-earth creationist but I understand why people are young-earthers. I am a teetotaler in practice but a moderationist doctrinally. I can see the point of the “wisdom argument” folks regarding alcohol consumption. But I absolutely don’t buy “the bible forbids alcohol consumption” argument, and so I’m likely to dig in on that one and let the dead-horse beware. I just don’t get that argument. I can’t see it. It just seems so unequivocally wrong that I can’t let it go. I can see why people are Calvinists and why they aren’t. I’m far less interested in those conversations than I used to be although I’ll still jump in occasionally. Even when conversing with unbelievers, I try to see their side, and in my experience they generally appreciate that. I’m not in favor of same-sex marriage, but I can see the points of the folks on the other side. I can sympathize with people who are attracted to the same sex and the seeming unfairness of people telling them they shouldn’t be able to marry, even if I ultimately come down on the “one man one woman” side of the aisle. But abortion I don’t get. I cannot see the other side. I cannot see how anyone can possibly think this is an acceptable practice other than for the life of the mother.
I have owned and used guns all my life and am pro-second amendment, but I can see and sympathize with those who see guns as a scourge and seek to limit their accessibility and use, and frankly I am generally repelled by groups like the NRA and their tactics. I can see both sides of immigration issues and tax issues and entitlement issues. I lean to the right on those things but perhaps not as far right as many Christians. I am not nearly as skeptical of climate change as many of my Christian peers. I can actually see why Republicans oppose the idea of man-made climate change but I can’t see why Christians oppose it, other than that they are also Republicans. Perhaps it is an eschatological thing, but I think it more likely it is simply a confusion of politics and faith.
Which brings me finally to Donald Trump. This is one that I absolutely do not get. I can’t see the other side and it should be evident to anyone who has followed these conversations online that I can’t let it go. Actually, I do understand those who say they will hold their nose and vote for Trump if he is the nominee. I think they are naïve and tragically mistaken if they think Trump would be a better president than Clinton or Sanders, but I can at least see their side. But to actually support Trump, for him to be someone’s choice right now, out of all the available choices, is beyond my ability to comprehend. As a candidate for president, I can literally think of nothing positive that he brings to the table. Nothing. I cannot fathom the mind that thinks he would be a good president. It is beyond my ability.
So that’s my story. I’m not sure what my overall point is, other than this article has been bubbling around in my head for a while and I wanted to get it put down in writing. I think dialog is often like being introduced to someone for the first time. All too often, you don’t focus on learning their name, but on the opportunity to give yours. I think if we seek to understand the point of view of folks on the other side, then dialog becomes productive even if no minds are changed. But as I have already confessed, sometimes it’s just not possible.
The attraction of Trump, for some, is simply that he’s not a bog-standard politician, and a lot of people have gotten tired of bog-standard politicians on both sides of the political divide. I’m not one of them, but I can understand the sentiment. For years, bog-standard politicians of both the liberal and conservative stripe have promised a lot, but delivered mediocrely, while striving to portray themselves as upstanding and righteous, while their opponents are evil. Trump is attracting a following merely by not being one of the typical politicians we’ve come to know and deplore.
Ben: But if that’s true, why isn’t Carly Fiorina making more headway? I think you may be right in small part, but I think it is something else. In my opinion Trump is appealing to something ugly in a lot of people. Trump boasted that he could shoot someone in the street and he wouldn’t lose votes. This is one of the few times I think he’s right. I told some folks last week that Trump could dismember a prostitute on live TV and people would blame the prostitute.
I see many of these issues as you do and always appreciate your contributions.
William Thornton,
I second that motion.
I also don’t understand when it is said ‘this is not about theology, it’s politics’. We are Christians. It is who we are. It is who we are on the job and in politics. In our personal lives and surrounded by others. It should most definitely form who we vote or don’t vote for. But in the same breath these same folks will bring in abortion, which I do as well when voting, but it seems like talking from both sides of their mouth. I must say I am greatly surprised by those who would vote for Trump either way,… Read more »
Debbie, No where in the Bible does it say that we should vote Democrat, Republican, for Trump, against Trump. Nowhere does it say that Christians should never vote for someone like Trump. It’s politics…although, I do agree with you that our Christian faith should affect every area of our lives. But, some things are left to the freedom of the Believer to choose what he/she feels is the best. Therefore, I will vote for 1. Carson 2. Cruz and then 3. ____… well, I can tell you, right now, that I will not vote for a baby killing, big govt,… Read more »
A very good, honest and sincere blog. There is much I agree with and certainly it appears Bill seeks facts and does not blindly follow an agenda. I would say that Bill is an open minded moderate who is thoughtful, reasonable and open to dialogue. This is all good and is missing in many cases. As someone who “gets” Trump or at least does not dismiss him entirely I believe the following explains his appeal. 1. Majority of Americans are opposed to the out of control illegal aliens that are streaming into the country. We do not enforce laws or… Read more »
“I would say that Bill is an open minded moderate . . .”
Steve s,
Why do you called BillMac a moderate? I tend to think he is an open-minded “conservative.”
There are some “open-minded” conservatives lurking around.
Steve s,
Did you miss the question above?
CB Scott, I was judging Bill by the post I responded to, which I found to be moderate in tone to me. It is a subjective term to label some one, we are complex humans. In New York City I would be a far right wing nut, in Jacksonville Fl, I would be a moderate, in Athens Ga. I would be a flaming liberal, it is all about the viewpoint you bring into it and your environment. Labels are only good for generalizations and most are self proclaimed. Whatever anyone is I believe they should back up their opinions with… Read more »
Steve s,
Thank you for the answer. So, can I take it that you are not of the SBC Boomer generation? For those of that generation of Southern Baptists, the words: moderate, liberal, conservative, and fundamentalist had very specific meanings.
I guess Bob Dylan was right. “The Times, They Are A Changin’.”
BTW, you are right as the rain in stating: “What we really need are realist who are open to changing sea tides.” ROLLING TIDES is always what “we really need.” Just ask Dave Miller. He loves the TIDE.
Steve,
I appreciate your response. I won’t interact with every point, but I do take strong exception to number 11. And really, number 11 makes me skeptical on the first 10. Trump is demonstrably not honest. He is blunt, but that is not the same thing. I won’t repost them all here, but I could make quite a long list of Trump’s lies. Falsehoods are a fact of life in politics, but I think Trump has elevated it to an art form.
Ask the people of Brooklyn if Trump is an honest man – Especially those who lived and worked there in the 1980’s.
Honest in the context of the high level Trump operates at is usually defined as it legal and can I get away with it. That applies to politicians also, Obama, Clinton, Bush, Rubio, is it unlawful and can I stretch the limits of the law. I meant Trump is being honest when he goes out unscripted and speaks his mind and how he truly feels. He goes on every show, he avoids no questions and he is what he is. All others avoid the public especially Hillary, but most candidates do not want to answer to the public. One thing… Read more »
No, I do not agree with your ten points, I just chose to respond to 11, because if a person lies continuously, you can’t believe anything he says on any issue. What policies? Build a wall and make Mexico pay for it? Idiotic. Ban all Muslims from entering the country except athletes and diplomats? Idiotic. I don’t know what his other policies are. I don’t know how you can say he is honest. “I saw thousands of Muslims in NJ celebrating 911”. Lie “I saw people jumping from the WTC from my building (4 miles away)” Lie “I wasn’t talking… Read more »
“. . . has made his money in the vice trade.”
As did Al Capone — can’t help but wonder if Al were around today could he get the evangelical vote.
He could say, “Hey all my operations are legit now and besides, Prohibition was a bad deal anyway. Stupid government should have known better, right? You guys know me. I will give ISIS and China a deal they can’t refuse. Know what I mean?”
A lot of emotion and that is fine. If you read Art of the Deal, which is what Trump really believes works (and it seems it does) his campaign is the MO of art of the deal. Bear with me and if I am wrong on Trump Modus Operandi than I am. I do not get Obama either but I do not deny the fact that twice the majority of American either agreed with him or did not know what he stood for, either way as a brilliant politician he won twice. 1. You want to sell a used car… Read more »
“Example Trump personally has never claimed bankruptcy, his companies did 4 times, at his level it is a common legal not moral tactic.”
Steve s,
That is the same characterless rationalizing that Bill Clinton used when he stated, “I never had sex with that woman.”
Character still counts. It counts in any arena of life.
steve s Regarding the Art of the Deal, exactly right. You don’t start negotiating at the price you want. Trump is negotiating with Mexico right now in the campaign by staking out a position he can negotiate from. It’s business negotiation 101. I’ve read several articles here about how pastors should pursue an MBA instead of an MDiv. I don’t say this derogatorily, but as one who spent 20 years as a businessman before being called to preach, this is obvious about Trump. And I’ll also say this, as one who was never as remotely as successful a businessman a… Read more »
Amen, CB. And while I’m at it: Bill Mac too.
John
You do realize that he sends out lawyers threatening lawsuits whenever someone even suggests saying anything negative about him.
steve s Good synopsis. It’s really not that difficult to see. I think most Christians who so vehemently oppose Trump point to the character and values issues mostly. The electorate is not looking at those. That’ve voted for people who has those things to institute changes and once elected they’ve gone along instead of providing a loyal opposition. They feel betrayed. Cruz is an exception to this. People are sick of the status quo, of politicians they perceive as more for themselves than the country, of a country they view as the greatest on earth going down the toilet. So… Read more »
Thanks for the reply Jeff, I always hear on the news that people in Iowa vote for the best faith base candidate and Huckabee is not the front runner. I do not get why the press keeps saying that when if Trump or Cruz win or go 1 and 2 they will be more popular than a good Baptist preacher. A country that voted twice for drafting dodging, cheating, lying, dishonest Bill Clinton is going to vote on values? Again do not get it. Thanks for the input I appreciate it and I agree , I will go with Huckabee… Read more »
Huckabee is my first choice. He’s a godly man and in my opinion experience as a governor is preferable to experience as a senator in qualifying one to be the President of the United States. It’s an entirely different skill set to be a legislator vs. an executive. However, Huckabee is not doing very well. I understand that if he doesn’t finish in the top 3 in Iowa that he will pull the plug on his campaign. If that happens, I’ll support Cruz. I could probably live with Rubio if I had to but, we can not let Trump get… Read more »
“That’ve voted for people who has those things to institute changes and once elected they’ve gone along instead of providing a loyal opposition.” But even that argument defies logic as Trump is talking about working with and making deals with the very ones who epitomize the going along to get along crowd. Also, it defies logic because HE is one of the main lobbyists that his supporters convey their politicians are beholden to….So, what? I guess they just want to cut out the middle man and sell out public policy directly to the lobbyists? The complete irony is that by… Read more »
Tarhill, Is not politics, which is the art of the possible, the very essence of “doing deals”. I believe Trump will do good deals for America not bad deals like now. Do you want a President that will not work for a solution that is good for all. Our early documents, our good laws and policy are a result of good deals. Bad deal are for example Iran and our trade policy. Trump is telling us the truth that we all know. He had to be a “player” in NY politics or not quick building permits etc. He knows the… Read more »
“He’s an entertainment clown and a player and it appears that people are getting played like a fiddle but if he gets to play his music in the White House…. sure isn’t going to be funny.” Tarheel, I hope you are not a prophet. There was an Emperor in Rome named Nero who was very likable in the beginning. He too was an entertainer, a clown, a poet, a singer, a builder, some historians even say he played a “fiddle” although the violin was unknown to Italy during his lifetime. (Maybe he invented it kinda like one politician invented the… Read more »
If Clinton gets elected, she’ll be playing the banjo, while Bill plays the fiddle…laughing at America all the way to the dump.
If Sanders gets elected, then he’ll be playing the fiddle, while America goes down the toilet.
Vol,
Bill will be playing the fiddle and probably smoking big “cigars” in the White House again if Hillary get elected.
I don’t know if Hillary plays the banjo, but she sure plays fast and loose with emails.
If Sanders gets in the White House, he will have us give up our “toilets” cause that’s too much wealth for a “Democratic Socialist” to tolerate.
We will all have to build community outhouses and share Sears Roebuck Catalogs. Socialists do not tolerate private, indoor toilets.
CB,
I knew I could count on you for a great answer! Well done, my Crimson friend; well done.
Vol,
I cannot see what Sander’s appeal is to so many young voters. He is an admitted Socialist. Strange times.
CB
Sanders appeal is simple. Twenty something’s have attended liberal public schools and colleges for their entire lives, what would we expect them to believe. I also believe their is still merit to an old Churchill quote, ” if at twenty you are not a liberal you have no heart, but if at 40 you are not a conservative you have no brain.” My bigger issue is the older folks who follow the folly of Sanders
Jeff P.,
I know you are right about educational influence. I just hate to see it.
Yet, as one who has been involved with college students vocationally and as a parent of a crew of Millennials, I have to state there are many who have not “bowed a knee to Baal” (Socialism) and who do stand strong from biblical values.
CB, I would love to be wrong on this – I really would.
Tarheel,
I hope and pray you are wrong on this one.
Exactly what steve said. Name a businessman who doesn’t play both sides of the aisle? The Koch brothers give to Dems for crying out loud. That’s the system. It’s beyond broken. Trump very credibly speaks to its evils and has said from the beginning it has to change. In that I’m in full agreement with him
https://www.facebook.com/DefendAmerica/videos/962222210492103/
Excellent video.
For generations both Conservatives and Christians have loudly proclaimed the importance of character in our leadership. Now that there is the prospect of a “strongman” to carry their banner ( so he says) some seem willing to throw the need for character and consistency out the window.
Trumpism is the same instinct, however understandable, that elected other authoritarian figures in history.
Someone famous said that Christians don’t believe in democracy because we believe people are basically good. We believe in democracy because we know they are not.
Except for Trump, all the other politicians are merely putting on a show. Trump is for real, he is a rough diamond, nevertheless a true diamond. The other candidates are only fakes and try to sell themselves as the real thing. The majority of the Republican party sees Trump as I do and he will not be pushed around by anyone. As much as I love Bernie Sanders I’m still tempted to vote for Trump. I saw two Harvard law professors on the news the other day, they said Cruz has a birth problem that is real. Rubio is crazy,… Read more »
Bill, reading your article brought this to mind, written from an author earlier today day….”if a candidate is the real McCoy, he’ll also have a quality product with a list of ingredients (again, a policy-position webpage) for the discriminating shopper. But if he’s smart he’ll understand that most people are impulse buyers with relatively short memories and recognize the importance of branding himself. Coca-Cola has “Coke is it!” Nike “Just do it!” and Barack Obama had “Yes, we can!” (no, he couldn’t — but it worked). Now, can you think of a GOP candidate other than Trump identifiable by way… Read more »
And just to be clear,… the reason it will be Trump or Rubio is because they are essentially the same critter. They both can be supported by the “establishment” (whatever that is). But both guys will push the same buttons that the majority of the GOP want pushed.
JMO, I think you are severely underestimating the utter disdain that exists for politics as is right now. Iowa is a strange animal with the caususes, as they don’t allow the participation level a primary does. But if Trump does win there, he doesn’t lose and runs the table. If he loses but still wins NH and SC, he’ll come out of Super Tuesday with a huge lead. If anyone thinks Republicans are going to listen to establishment politicians like Nikki Haley or Lindsey Graham here where I live in SC, they are delusional. There is an undercurrent in this… Read more »
Jeff P., I am with you on there is never an election like this. Trump and Trump alone has come along and changed everything about politics as usual. One comment here is now Trump is part of the establishment and will be under their control? Where did that come from. What is unbelievable is that Trump has bested the established professional establishment Republicans, he has so far bested the National Review, Charles Krauhammer, George Will and all of the out of touch doctrine conservatives who live in a bubble in New York and Washington and he is beating the big… Read more »
Steve: You seem to be under the impression that because Trump is winning, he must be right. I concede that he is winning, but that makes me despair of our country. I don’t believe Trump cares squat about the country, only in so far as it reveals his greatness. He cannot deliver what he is promising, even assuming we wanted him to. He doesn’t want to be president, he wants to be Putin. He doesn’t want to govern, he wants to rule. That is all he has known. Does it not give you pause at all that he is vicious… Read more »
I don’t actually fear that last bit however, because a Trump candidacy means a Clinton win.
Bill, my point about Trump winning and beating the money people, the establishment and overcoming the press is that he is effective and hardworking , traits you want in a President. At least with the majority of Republican voters so far they believe he is on the right course based on his actions and stated positions. So far no woman I know of has come out with any charge or evidence of Trump being hostile to women. Trump promotes and uses quite a number of women in his business dealings. The twitter and TV appearances is his style to get… Read more »
To justify the actions and statements of Trump or any other person by stating that he/she is honest for a person “at his level” is simply not in accord with a biblical worldview.
There is only one “level” of honesty. That is the level of honesty that is plainly described consistently in Scripture.
Under Trump they will say “Welcome to our world.”
Amen CB.
“So far no woman I know of has come out with any charge or evidence of Trump being hostile to women. ”
Steve: Now you are not being honest. You are in denial.
http://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2015/08/08/keeping-them-honest.cnn
http://fortune.com/2015/08/09/trump-insult-women-history/
Bill Mac
And yet Trump, who you say in anti-woman, has placed them in positions of substantial power in his businesses since the 1980’s. Hired them and paid them on an equal scale as men. Is he crass as in the dust up with Kelly or comments on Rosie O’Donnell? No doubt. But Trump has treated women better than the Dem champions who still pay them less than a man
If women in the market place of ideas want to be in the big leagues of public affairs they are as open to insults, innuendos and unfair treatment as men. I agree with you Jeff and it is emotion driven by the establishment sections who turn I agree stupid, crass insults made to stimulate attention into a policy and personal statement about women. Trump is a secular person with a big ego and plays the media like a fiddle. Democrats and establishment Republicans would never attack or insult a conservative woman , look at the fair treatment Palin has received… Read more »
Steve: You seem to be willing to excuse anything Trump does as “just his style” or the age we live in. I’ll say this again. It doesn’t matter if Trump happens to say something that I agree with. I don’t believe him. Effective and hard working? Name any dictator that wasn’t. I don’t believe Trump can do the things he’s promised. I don’t believe he means the things he says. I don’t believe he wants to make America great and I don’t think he is capable of doing so. He made his fortune on the backs of the poor dupes… Read more »
So your mind is made up and there is nothing that will change your opinion of Donald Trump, no other opinions, no events that man alter your opinion and it is a closed subject. I get it and that is certainly your right. So the pro abortion, anti traditional marriage and socialist party will be your choice if Trumps is the Republican or will you just not vote? Just asking as it many come to that and I wonder how many will do that . Will Trump lose more support than the new voters he may bring.
“Trump has always married strong women”
This is so ludicrous Steve, are you reading yourself?
Based on their public behavior and public announcements they are strong women, successful women, what is wrong with that statement that is my opinion based on public knowledge. Are they weak women?
I could certainly change my mind about Trump, but a man who never apologizes and never admits that he is wrong is not likely to change my mind. My information about Trump would have to change and I don’t know where that would come from.
I will not vote for the Democratic nominee and I will not vote for Trump. There are some lines I just won’t cross. That’s why I’m so vehement in my opposition to Trump, while there’s still time.
It is my opinion that Trump would be the worst president of all the main candidates.
Bill, my point about Trump winning and beating the money people, the establishment and overcoming the press is that he is effective and hardworking , traits you want in a President. At least with the majority of Republican voters so far they believe he is on the right course based on his actions and stated positions. The traits I want in a president above all are honesty and integrity, neither of which Trump has ever exhibited. Do you know why we get ridiculous statements from his people like “I’ve worked for Donald Trump for ten years and I’ve never known… Read more »
Bill, I get it you will not support Trump because of his personal traits and conduct. This is fine and as it should be, we should all vote your beliefs. However just to show how items slip under the radar of most people a current favorite of many now is Marco Rubio. I have no problem if Rubio is the nominee and will vote for him but if you use the yard stick applied to Trump here are some facts about Rubio presented in an anti Trump manner just to illustrate emotion vs. analysis. 1. Rubio is a liar and… Read more »
Jeff, I agree…. and that is the reason that the race tends toward a Trump/Rubio heat. It will take a few states for voters to decide, and if Trump continues down the Reagan type path…he has a chance to run the tables. But, at the end of the day Trump is only a more brash testifier of what Rubio will push to do for the GOP. Trump knows the GOP well! The most interesting thing to me so far is why the Trump rhetoric is so powerful this go around….and it does appear that it is because of the Republican… Read more »
The total capitulation of McConnell and Boehner on issues they said they would fight for has definitely helped the stage for this. The elephant in the room is a large part of the Rep base, and even socially conservative Dems, do not trust either pRty anymore.
“The total capitulation of McConnell and Boehner on issues they said they would fight for has definitely helped the stage for this.” Jeff P., I do not know you personally. Therefore, take the following with a grain of salt: That one statement you made about McConnell and Boehner may be the greatest understatement you have ever made manifest from your mortal being in any medium possible by which humans communicate. Boehner should have been crying alligator tears about his messy self long before he met with the Pope. He craw-fished on America and let the POTUS and his minions whodo… Read more »
Chris: I also was not disagreeing but asking a legitimate question. What is termed political correctness is simply the Golden rule. Why is the term political correctness always used.
“if Trump continues down the Reagan type path”
To put Trump and Reagan in the same sentence is ludicrous.
Debbie, you must if you utter the slogan, whether one loves or hates Trump…Trump is using it in much the same manner has Reagan. Reagan also made a nice little “change” in his political vision when entering presidential politics. http://www.iagreetosee.com/portfolio/make-america-great-again/
The difference Chris is that Reagan sincerely changed and was one of the finest Presidents to ever lead our country. He did not use the rhetoric that Donald does. And the list could go on.
Debbie…I don’t disagree with you. Trump is not “politically correct” with being “politically correct”. He is simply getting free and continuous coverage from the most gullible of this world…the Media. Media loves attention, and the Donald knows how to keep their stock higher.
Why is plain human kindness always called political correctness? Chris really? Who are we as Christians if not treating humans kindly?
This is another thing I don’t get. If the lost are kinder and more respectful toward human beings than we are, wow. That’s not right.
I think there are those who know supporting Trump is wrong and just don’t care. They want what they want. These excuses are getting lamer and lamer.
Debbie,…you seem to disagree that I am agreeing with you. So, with that I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
Chris: I also was not disagreeing but asking a legitimate question. What is termed political correctness is simply the Golden rule. Why is the term political correctness always used
Political correctness and the Golden Rule are absolutely not the same thing at all.
Unless you think that dishonesty is a part of the Golden Rule.
John Wylie: What are you talking about??
Debbie, political correctness has nothing to do with kindness, it has to do with avoiding sensitive subjects in order to avoid offending people. The Golden Rule has to do with treating people in the same manner as you would prefer to be treated. They are not the same thing at all.
Debbie, this is today’s drive-by:
Debbie Kaufman said:
“What is termed political correctness is simply the Golden rule.”
In the words of the most wise volfan: smh
I do agree with John Wylie’s post above.
Ken P,
🙂
David
May I try to restate Debbie’s point?
(If I get it wrong, Debbie can rebuke me – she’s done that more than once!)
With Donald Trump, the issue is not that he is “politically incorrect” but that he is rude. Political correctness is stupid. But what Trump is doing is being a bully, a brute, a jerk. That’s no better.
Yes…Trump is rude, no doubt about it!
To equate Trump and Rubio defies logic. It is ridiculous Chris. Are you seriously making such an argument? Have you watched Rubio’s speeches. He has won over the hearts and minds of many here in Iowa. He is exactly the opposite of Trump – substantive, genuine. To put forward such an idea is ludicrous. I’m sorry, it is moronic. I know you are not a moron, but to somehow compare the two, as if they are cut from the same cloth – I don’t know how anyone can say such a thing with a straight face.
Dave…It goes deeper than that…. Trump and Rubio are digging out of the same pot. At the end of the day, it is those two who will garner the majority of the GOP (Trump was buying what Rubio has been selling for many years, and now Rubio is letting it play….this doesn’t square with the newcomers, or the purest seekers). That’s all I am saying. May seem moronic though 🙂
Rubio is no dummy, and he is not Mr. smily nice guy either. Probably the reason he will do well in politics.
Dave, I hope that the voters in Iowa place Rubio as high as possible to give him some momentum. He is for the American foundations of free trade, adding value to products for profit and equity (capitalism), and for life…..unlike any of his Democratic rivals.
Chris Johnson, I do appreciate your clarification to Dave Miller as to your crediting Rubio as being like Trump. I had intended to ask you why you did that myself. Now, allow me to ask you if you have listened to Rubio’s testimony of faith. I realize he identifies himself as a Catholic, however, his testimony is that of a person who trusts Christ and Christ alone for his salvation. In addition, I believe, as I assume you do also, that Catholic theology is not biblical in is primary essence. Nonetheless, I do believe there are many Catholics who, even… Read more »
cb, “Catholic theology is not biblical in is primary essence. Nonetheless, I do believe there are many Catholics who, even though they remain in the Catholic Church, are true followers of Christ.” I completely agree, and as with Rubio and his journey with Christ,…his testimony persuades me to believe that the Spirit has made him alive, even though his understanding of Roman Catholic theology is not deep, with respect to his use of “infused”. That is probably to his advantage. I hope he listened well to Rick Blackwood before he returned to the liturgy of the RC. Rubio probably has… Read more »
Just my take on Rubio, you and I share the same opinion of RC’s. I think Rubio’s profession is genuine. The contradiction is his statements that he fully supports RC doctrine which clearly doesn’t reflect Evangelical beliefs. Let’s be honest, Rubio has been all over the road in regards to faith throughout his life.
Chris Johnson, Jeff P., Thanks for your response and thank you Jeff P, for your comment also. I am glad that I am not alone in believing there are true believers in the Catholic Church. I know some folks who will not do so due to family ties. I think you are right, Jeff P., that Rubio has been “all over the road” about issues of faith. I also think Chris is right about his not coming out of the Catholic Church has greatly to do with his “cultural background.” I, for one, know it is a hard journey to… Read more »
CB
Still have no clue how he was a Mormon for a while. You talk about contradicting his cultural background.
cb, Rubio is not too unlike a lot of politicians when it come to spiritual matters. Politicians play it for what its worth to them in the world of politics. I do think Rubio seems sincere and more grounded in what he believes. Cruz is on par with Rubio as well from where I watch. Trump is probably the most cautious of the group to put his faith (no matter the substance) out there for scrutiny. One thing is for certain, Politics is never ultimately a litmus test for Spiritual matters in the great scheme of things… unless one believes… Read more »
Jeff,
Rubio “became” mormon only through his association with friends in the neighborhood he was living. He was between the ages of 8-13. His dad never attended….so, this was most likely a good time to spend with his friends and stay out of trouble as he would say….
Yep, Jeff P.,
That Mormon thing is a boggler of confusion about Rubio. If I am not mistaken, his mother got the family into the Latter Day Saints in his younger days.
Chris Johnson, I would like nothing better than to have coffee with you and talk about Jesus. However, I am no longer in the Peach State. Nor am I working in Academia any longer. I am now in the Far Blue Mountains of Eastern Kentucky serving a local church as pastor. (It is a good local church and I am humbled with their call to me and honored to serve them as a shepherd for The Great Shepherd.) However, we do have a number of colleges and universities in this neck of the woods. So, if you get anywhere around… Read more »
cb… you are true to crimson color my friend. You dominate all areas of the country :). The nation is never too large. send me your latest coordinates…csjohnsonnetwork@gmail.com UK is always trying to rope me in…..
cb,…never mind, my investigators found you and listened to your message of “Regeneration” and gave the thumbs up. I’ll reach out to you sometime in the future. 🙂
Chris Johnson,
As to us getting together if “UK ropes you in,” I shall answer you as did the good men of First McD say to me about the resent snow and its removal from the parking lots of the church buildings:
“We’ll get er done”
Also in that list is my alma mater, Asbury College (now Asbury University), about 20 miles from Lexington in Wilmore (a college and seminary town with 2 whole stoplights).
Ben Coleman,
That is the place where the Asbury Revival took place. I took a class there once myself when Maxie Dunnam was president.
Please tell me, CB, that they don’t have you wearing KY blue; do they? If that’s true, then that is 20 times worse than Trump winning the Repub. nomination.
They don’t even know what a football looks like in KY.
David
Eyup. I was at Asbury (College, not the seminary) a few years later, 1975-1978.
Volfan – I can’t speak to football, but when I was at Asbury, they had a decent soccer team – mainly due to a number of MK students from South America.
Soccer? Aint that something they play in Europe?
CB, do you see what’s going on, in KY? All they know about are round balls like soccer and basketball. I bet they even play volleyball, up there.
But, they know nothing about football. And, they wear blue…like in depressed. They’re blue about not knowing football.
CB, don’t go hunting wildcats, up there, either. They don’t like that.
David
I think you’re confused. The game you call soccer *is* football. That other game should properly be called hangegg. See here: http://img.memecdn.com/football-handegg_o_76029.webp
Vol,
Still wearing Crimson. However, if I ever learn the rules of basketball, I will cheer for UK. They really like that sport here.
Its difficult enough to vote for a representative of a party whose representatives give lip service to “capitalism”, and then vote the other direction. But, I certainly will not vote for a representative of a party that whole heartedly builds a platform to kill the unborn, kill God’s design for marriage, and progressively undercuts capitalistic foundations by replicating well worn socialistic fundamentals that have never advanced the value of goods.
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.
Well said and so right on. Now if Russell Moore stated what you stated so well and said if you vote for a Democrat you might question your Christian values I would be hard press to argue about it. Abortion is murder and a major political party of our nation actively supports but focus is on Republican primary candidates, all who oppose abortion.
Wanna talk issues? I think those of us on this forum to have spoken disapproval of trumps Carnival barker candidacy have consistently mentioned several of those but I’ll do a rundown again – Trump supports abortion “big time” in his own words. He will not move to reduce or stop it – again in his own words. Every time he spoken on the issue until the last six months he has clearly articulated a pro choice position. Now in the last six months he is become pro life. I think it’s crass pandering which would defy your notion of his… Read more »
Tarheel, as I’ve stated above, Trump/Rubio are the same. Cruz is different, but will get crushed this go around because of only a few inconsistencies. He may not be nasty enough to be in Presidential politics. Cruz will need to figure out how to grow some teflon and quick to remain competitive.
On top of that his constant demeaning of women, mocking of a disabled man, Savage attacks on anyone who dares to disagree with him on any single issue, his constant turn on a dime attacks on people who are “great people and great friends” the moment they disagree with him or come close to him in the polls. I mean for goodness sake’s he called the man who performed the first successful pediatric brain separation A “mediocre doctor”. Even take the issue of cruz “Citizenship” – in September Trump said that he had had his best lawyers look at it… Read more »
Trump plays the evolving “political” game well. It takes time to work through the dross. Yet if one subscribes to the current administrations goals and substance…it is all dross.
Evolving – Who does that sound like?
There are a lot of similarities to style with Trump and Obama. Yet, a clear world of difference in their foundations. Trump would never be a socialist…its not in his background. Obama would never be a capitalist…its not in his background. I would never agree with Trumps rhetoric or political branding methodology. On the other hand,…Trumps foundation of capitalism is certainly in line with biblical foundations for economic value, where Obama’s (Hillary or Sanders) socialism is certainly out of step with biblical economic foundations. A Trump presidency (not really sure he can beat Rubio) would be infinitely better than a… Read more »
Thank you for outlining some issues that you disagree with Trump on. You have stated and supported your political disagreements with Trump in a good way. Here is what I think about the same issues 1. Trump has changed his position on abortion for whatever reason even if it is political. It is no secret. Does anyone think that this secular, less faithful nation will outlaw all abortions. They should and we should, pray, demonstrate and do all we can but we live in a political world. Sadly and tragically the majority of voting Americans support legalize abortions and that… Read more »
Based on your post here it seems as if you are not a conservative – at least not in the traditional sense – so objections to trump on the basis that he is not a conservative still stand because you just articulated positions that are not conservative as a reason that you support him. As for abortion – you admit that it may be simply a change of mind for political reasons – doesn’t that undermine your argument that he constantly tells the truth and is a game changer in his honesty? Also, changing for political expediency is not changing… Read more »
I do not classify myself or blindly follow conservative, liberal or other social construct labels applied usually for short hand id . If Trump has had no personal change on his views on abortion I cannot know. I only can go on what he says will be his policy position. We can do no worse than events that have happened since Roe V Wade. So the “conservative” leaders who keep the doctrine pure, supportedRomney, who really had to pretend to be conservative, McCain who is truly a maverick when it comes to opposing Republicans, Paul Ryan and the trade policy… Read more »
Tarheel
Christians have voted conservative every election. Even when conservatives have won, they have not followed through on the conservatism they professed while campaigning. People are simply fed up with “conservative” politicians who campaign one way yet govern another and conservative talking heads who live in a bubble and espouse policy theories that have led to less conservatism all the while supporting the same compromising, so-called conservative politicians.
Bush did a lot to develop/promote a culture of life. Obama undid a lot of it. Also SCOTUS is important! I want a principled constitutional and prolife conservative (not expedient) pro lifer appointing justices.
I’m going to visit a church member in the hospital but I’ll share details later.
Tarheel,
Bush also increased spending at levels unmatched except by Obama, appointed John Roberts who capitulated on gay marriage, his father appointed Sutter, No Child Left Behind which further centralized education in Washington, no comprehensive immigration reform(40 years of that), increased international aid, and many more things. Since him, the nominees have grown even less conservative with McCain and Romney. Can you see how a large segment of Republicans are fed up?
steve s, You stated: “I do not classify myself or blindly follow conservative, liberal or other social construct labels applied usually for short hand id.” However, you did classify BillMac as a moderate. That seems to be the use of a double-standard on your part. You constant defense of Trump’s integrity by stating he has honesty for one who deals at “his level” smacks of the same adherence of a double-standard on your part. I can’t speak for Tarheel in an absolute fashion, but I think his stating that “you are not a conservative” is based on something beyond regional… Read more »
Ok – I’m back – but I need add nothing except….yeah….what CB said.
Yes steve s,… I just hope Russell Moore doesn’t get into politics, since he doesn’t do “it” very well. Yet, there is really no more clear answer for Christians but to go and read through God’s law that preceded the levitical law and understand our mission. Politics tend to make one waiver on understanding that mission. Yet as other prophets of old demonstrate…its never too late to be intimately involved in God’s work even while working for, or being involved in the Government in power by the telling the truth and being obedient to prayer.
Amen, so be it, love the old saying Pray as everything is up to God(which it is) and work like everything is up to you. We can be in politics and keep our faith. Good thought.
Oh come on Chris. That excuse is getting old. Very old. Donald Trump then is a better alternative? With his dirty business practices, his racist statements, his statements downing women? Give me a break. It may ease your conscience somewhat but man wrong is wrong is wrong is wrong.
Debbie, I am not speaking of Donald Trump. In fact, I am still persuaded that he will not win the GOP nomination. If you are referring to a platform. There is no doubt that what the Republican platform espouses now,..capitalistic foundations, not killing the unborn, etc. Those principles alone are enough to escape from the Democratic platform that is opposed to life, and adding value to products as a basis for trade and equity.
http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/250936-trump-defends-planned-parenthood
Liberal talking points.
There seems to be some idea that once Trump becomes president he’ll become a tough but wise statesman rather than the infantile clown and bully he is now. Really? Have we ever seen that? The candidate and the president are the same person. Can you envision it? Rude remarks about Angela Merkel’s looks? Twitter tirades against Justin Trudeau? Claims that “failing England” hasn’t been treating him fairly? Can you imagine what someone as thin-skinned and vindictive as Trump would do if given real power? It appears Trump has backed out of the Fox debate because Megyn Kelly isn’t nice to… Read more »
Him backing out of the debate is his biggest gamble yet IMO. My gut tells me it’s a mistake. However, he’s played the media like a Stradivarius so far, so we shall see. If he does an event on CNN and it out draws the debate ratings wise, he wins. But it’s a gamble. It also has accomplished exactly what he has orchestrated throughout this campaign, he is all people are talking about. Going to be an interesting few days. Still wouldn’t surprise me if some deal is worked out for him to be there, as FOX knows the ratings… Read more »
Jeff, Art of the Deal, when you are winning, you blow up the deal to get better advantage. I think most of us who have watched the other debates know what Trump is about whether you agree with him or not. The other candidates on the stage are basking and getting attention from the aura of Trump. The best Trump can do is to stay even or gain little in a this debate. Like you said it is a gamble, it is unconventional, it is bold and only Trump would do it. Romney should have blasted CNN and Candy Crowley… Read more »
If all the Christians who have determined Huckabee can’t win would vote for him, he would win
I agree that is why I am so confused about the Iowa vote. I live in Florida if Huckabee is on ballot he has my vote, even if it is symbolic I will feel good. I hope if he does not make it Huckabee goes back to Fox, I thought his program was a public service. He is a good, faithful and honest person. He had an interview with Todd Starnes recently where he wondered why R. Moore had 2 Catholics at event but not him. Good question.
“in response to Debbie Kaufman:
“if Trump continues down the Reagan type path” To put Trump and Reagan in the same sentence is ludicrous.
Chris: I also was not disagreeing but asking a legitimate question. What is termed political correctness is simply the Golden rule. Why is the term political correctness always used”
Debbie:
Now you should know that it is not politically correct to refer to political correctness itself as the Golden Rule because that would imply that it came from the Bible.
I’m not sure why Christians would vote for Trump, but I do know that “not being politically correct” and “telling it how it is” does NOT qualify someone for President or make someone a decent human being.
Texas Governor Rick Perry endorses Ted Cruz.
Jerry Falwell, Jr. endorses Donald Trump.
Interesting.
David R. Brumbelow
Kinda would think it would be the other way around, though I have no doubt that Falwell Sr would endorse Trump
Tyler,
I am not so sure Dr. Jerry Falwell would support Trump. For sure, the sons are not the father in that tribe.
Hmmmm You might be right! There does seem to be a difference between the Jr. and Sr. so I retract my comment
I could not agree more with you on this CB. I always feared and actually became convinced that after Falwell Sr. died the university would end up going the way of many other Christian liberal arts colleges and become unorthodox and liberal. I have to say that I am sorry I was right about that – I will say it is happening faster than I expected. I am bothered a great deal by Jr’s endorsement of Trump but I am way, way, way more bothered in his comments while introducing him in convocation. He affirmed Trumps “faith” simply on the… Read more »
Tarheel,
Even though I’m sick today and have this horrible cold. I needed that laugh. You truly are a funny guy. Thank you.
I have to agree with CB. I’m not convinced that the father of the Moral Majority would endorse the most immoral candidate in the race.
I do not believe that old Jerry would have endorsed Trump. He had a moral and spiritual anchor that young Jerry just doesn’t have.
Old Jerry would have invited Trump to speak, but he would have preached the gospel to him, not declared him a Christian.
It’s all speculation, but that’s what I think.
That’s one word. Sad (at least the latter) is more like it.
There is no way I could ever vote for Huckabee. He had a program on Fox News. I rest my case!
I can see why you wouldn’t want to support Huckabee. He’s a Christian, a conservative, and speaks clearly on issues. Who would want that?
Plus, he is against abortion, and your party supports abortion. We can’t have a President who opposes abortion, right, Jess?
He does not support and promote homosexuality and all forms of perversion like your Democrats do.
He believes in American capitalism and Democracy, contrary to your Democrats.
There are a few things I disagree with Huck about. But I certainly understand why you don’t support him.
Huckabee would be a better president than anything the Dems have to offer.
John Wylie…no doubt about it!
Well fellows,
I like Huckabee. I like him a lot. . . . . but in all honesty, An Amazon River Cannibal would make a better POTUS than “anything the Dems have to offer.”
I agree with you that the Republican candidates, even guys like Rand Paul, etc, are better than anything the Democrats are offering.
I cannot agree that Donald Trump is better. I do not think that in terms of what is good for this nation, he would be an improvement in any way.
Dave Miller, I can respect that. Don’t get me wrong, I am no fan of Trump. But, I’m an even avid hater of the Democratic party. Hillary Clinton to me is an even bigger joke than Donald Trump.
For the first time in the history of our nation, our religious freedom as guaranteed by the Constitution is in jeopardy. We desperately need a godly President. Mike Huckabee is my first choice. I don’t have any problem with Cruz but, I believe that experience as a Governor is preferable to experience as a Senator in terms of evaluating a candidate for POTUS.
Dave, All those evil sins you mentioned, the Republican Justices gave us. End of story! I’ve caught Huck in too many lies. He would pounce on Obama saying a particular policy wouldn’t work. I watched the policy play out, and it worked. There are many other issues that happened the same way. They all worked. Our nation is in better shape than it has been in decades. You and your conservative friends cannot deny the facts. Religion binds (imprisons), but grace sets free. Dave, you and your religious friends are trying to place us back during the times of the… Read more »
“Dave, you and your religious friends are trying to place us back during the times of the Salem witch trials, which will make us no different than the Islamic bunch.”
Come on man….the Salem Witch Trials? Really? This was an overly emotional and completely unnecessary response.
Tyler,
If what I said seemed emotional, I’m sorry. I was not emotional when I posted it. I do believe my response was necessary because there is a huge difference between religion and Christianity.
Actually, James does not make the distinction you made,
“RELIGION that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.:
Tyler,
If we wanted to keep ourselves unspotted from the world, we wouldn’t be messing with politics.
How about let’s Scrub this conversation?
There is one big difference I see between Trump and all the other candidates on both sides. Yes, they all have big egos, but Trump wins there. Yes, they sometimes play fast and loose with the truth, but Trump is an order of magnitude higher on that scale. But even though I would not vote for the Democrats, and some of the Republicans, I think all the rest do, in their own sometimes twisted way, want the best for America. I don’t think that about Trump. If in the process of showing the world how great he is, he incidentally… Read more »
We have had several posts on Voices about idolatry. I think the biggest threat to Christianity is an organized religion inundated with politics. I wish some of you guys can see this horrible idol. This is one of the causes many of our young people are turning away from organized religion. May God help us see the truth before it’s too late. We are becoming no different than the Pharisees that Jesus rebuked.
I fear we are no longer a New Testament Church.