I like to dialog with people, either personally or online, as long as things don’t get ugly. I’m not good with real conflict. I will happily stake out a position and defend it. Sometimes I’m good at it, sometimes I’m not. If you’re like me, sometimes you just throw something out there and realize that you don’t have the tools or knowledge to defend it well. In that case I do a little more research to see if my case is stronger than I think, or perhaps I need to rethink my position. But one thing I always try to do now, and I’m getting better at it, is to see the other side. I no longer just want to promote my own opinion, I want to see why others have a different one, and understand it if I can. It doesn’t mean I’ll change my mind (but I might), but I find it makes for a much better dialog and a more mutual respect between me and the person I am speaking with. And there is another advantage. When I first began interacting on the internet, I would happily keep beating a dead horse well past any chance of a beneficial outcome. Topics could be Calvinism, moderationism, or whatever. Once I really started trying to see the other side, I found I could walk away. I still jump in and make my point, but I don’t have to keep re-making my point over and over again. That’s beneficial to me, and to those on the other side of whatever issue is on the table.
Nothing is perfect, however, especially me. Sometimes I can’t see the other side. I can’t put myself in their place. Sometimes I cannot see how any rational person can come to a different conclusion than the one I have arrived at. When that happens, I find I can’t let the subject go, and the dead horse just keeps getting beaten. So in case anyone is interested, I thought I’d jot down some fairly hot-button issues and where I am in regards to them.
I am a Baptist, but I can easily see why many others aren’t. I’m a firmly committed credobaptist but I see the points made by paedobaptists, even if ultimately I’m unconvinced by them. I am an old-earth creationist but I understand why people are young-earthers. I am a teetotaler in practice but a moderationist doctrinally. I can see the point of the “wisdom argument” folks regarding alcohol consumption. But I absolutely don’t buy “the bible forbids alcohol consumption” argument, and so I’m likely to dig in on that one and let the dead-horse beware. I just don’t get that argument. I can’t see it. It just seems so unequivocally wrong that I can’t let it go. I can see why people are Calvinists and why they aren’t. I’m far less interested in those conversations than I used to be although I’ll still jump in occasionally. Even when conversing with unbelievers, I try to see their side, and in my experience they generally appreciate that. I’m not in favor of same-sex marriage, but I can see the points of the folks on the other side. I can sympathize with people who are attracted to the same sex and the seeming unfairness of people telling them they shouldn’t be able to marry, even if I ultimately come down on the “one man one woman” side of the aisle. But abortion I don’t get. I cannot see the other side. I cannot see how anyone can possibly think this is an acceptable practice other than for the life of the mother.
I have owned and used guns all my life and am pro-second amendment, but I can see and sympathize with those who see guns as a scourge and seek to limit their accessibility and use, and frankly I am generally repelled by groups like the NRA and their tactics. I can see both sides of immigration issues and tax issues and entitlement issues. I lean to the right on those things but perhaps not as far right as many Christians. I am not nearly as skeptical of climate change as many of my Christian peers. I can actually see why Republicans oppose the idea of man-made climate change but I can’t see why Christians oppose it, other than that they are also Republicans. Perhaps it is an eschatological thing, but I think it more likely it is simply a confusion of politics and faith.
Which brings me finally to Donald Trump. This is one that I absolutely do not get. I can’t see the other side and it should be evident to anyone who has followed these conversations online that I can’t let it go. Actually, I do understand those who say they will hold their nose and vote for Trump if he is the nominee. I think they are naïve and tragically mistaken if they think Trump would be a better president than Clinton or Sanders, but I can at least see their side. But to actually support Trump, for him to be someone’s choice right now, out of all the available choices, is beyond my ability to comprehend. As a candidate for president, I can literally think of nothing positive that he brings to the table. Nothing. I cannot fathom the mind that thinks he would be a good president. It is beyond my ability.
So that’s my story. I’m not sure what my overall point is, other than this article has been bubbling around in my head for a while and I wanted to get it put down in writing. I think dialog is often like being introduced to someone for the first time. All too often, you don’t focus on learning their name, but on the opportunity to give yours. I think if we seek to understand the point of view of folks on the other side, then dialog becomes productive even if no minds are changed. But as I have already confessed, sometimes it’s just not possible.
The attraction of Trump, for some, is simply that he’s not a bog-standard politician, and a lot of people have gotten tired of bog-standard politicians on both sides of the political divide. I’m not one of them, but I can understand the sentiment. For years, bog-standard politicians of both the liberal and conservative stripe have promised a lot, but delivered mediocrely, while striving to portray themselves as upstanding and righteous, while their opponents are evil. Trump is attracting a following merely by not being one of the typical politicians we’ve come to know and deplore.
Ben: But if that’s true, why isn’t Carly Fiorina making more headway? I think you may be right in small part, but I think it is something else. In my opinion Trump is appealing to something ugly in a lot of people. Trump boasted that he could shoot someone in the street and he wouldn’t lose votes. This is one of the few times I think he’s right. I told some folks last week that Trump could dismember a prostitute on live TV and people would blame the prostitute.
I see many of these issues as you do and always appreciate your contributions.
William Thornton,
I second that motion.
I also don’t understand when it is said ‘this is not about theology, it’s politics’. We are Christians. It is who we are. It is who we are on the job and in politics. In our personal lives and surrounded by others. It should most definitely form who we vote or don’t vote for.
But in the same breath these same folks will bring in abortion, which I do as well when voting, but it seems like talking from both sides of their mouth. I must say I am greatly surprised by those who would vote for Trump either way, but especially for those who would have him as their first choice.
Ben: Considering his business and private practices, I would think that Christians would definitely not be attracted to Trump. He is the complete opposite of what we are as Christians in every single way. Dave put it well in a couple of posts he has written. It seems Evangelicals are corrupt to me and that is beyond my scope of fathoming.
Debbie,
No where in the Bible does it say that we should vote Democrat, Republican, for Trump, against Trump. Nowhere does it say that Christians should never vote for someone like Trump.
It’s politics…although, I do agree with you that our Christian faith should affect every area of our lives. But, some things are left to the freedom of the Believer to choose what he/she feels is the best.
Therefore, I will vote for 1. Carson 2. Cruz and then 3. ____… well, I can tell you, right now, that I will not vote for a baby killing, big govt, socialist.
David
A very good, honest and sincere blog. There is much I agree with and certainly it appears Bill seeks facts and does not blindly follow an agenda. I would say that Bill is an open minded moderate who is thoughtful, reasonable and open to dialogue. This is all good and is missing in many cases.
As someone who “gets” Trump or at least does not dismiss him entirely I believe the following explains his appeal.
1. Majority of Americans are opposed to the out of control illegal aliens that are streaming into the country. We do not enforce laws or protect our citizens. This issue would not be in fore front and a major issue without Trump. That is why “immigration reform” was never passed by either party the past 8 years, Americans are opposed to it.
2. Free Trade, TPP, Fast Track Authority, China- Republicans fully support Obama on trade deals that are only good for multi national, a select few and harm American workers and economy. Giving up constitutional powers to approve treaties that could not survive public review is what Republicans have done. China manipulates currency as does Japan. We have lost in every trade deal since NAFTA. It is incompetence. Middle class is disappearing in a pre arranged global economy.
3.Iran deal- Look at Korea deal in early 1990’s, this is far worse. America has ceded Middle East influence to Iran.
4.Incompetence or as Trump eloquently says “Stupid leaders”- military is in disarray and drained, social programs more attention than defense. Many failures of leadership and management with political impact favoring promotion. Many former great agencies are now a joke, IRS, FBI, Secret Service, NSA, DOD , etc. all with terrible management or scandals. This is a management problems on a great scale.
5. Syrian immigrants and no vetting of potential immigrants into this country. See Europe problems with lost of Christian culture, no assimilation and the drain of public resources. First and main job of a President is to protect this country.
6. Health Care- Anti Obama care but knows reform is needed perhaps even universal health care which personally I agree with but too long to get into here.
7.Leadership, Deal Making- Who else can do what Trump has done. Will he make deals, of course but they will be good deals. What could be worse than the weak Republicans since 2000 would cannot or will not challenge an unpopular President. Trump is a man of action and deeds with proven results in real world environment .
8. Why is he in the running- could it be he is truly a man who cares about his country and is willing to give up a very good lifestyle to enter the fight? Why would rich people give Bush and others millions of dollars to do what? Has Trump a big ego, yes but all who run for President do or they would not run.
9.Personal Values- Does Trump follow the same Christian beliefs as me, no, he is not a born again, In Christ alone believer. However he is not anti Christian and speaks to the importance of Christianity in the culture.
10. Is he a purist? Of course not , that is why the National Review types and establishment people loathe him. They will lose they seats of power as they “observe” but do no good. If we want a man of great faith and someone who I agree with on matters of faith, Huckabee would be the Iowa winner by far. Russell Moore is get the SBC into a place politically it should not be. When the New York Times, NBC and CNN love you , you know you are on their glide path. SBC should stay out of politics. People should vote their Christian conscience without a magisterium directing voting.
11. Honesty, He is what he is and does not have handlers, scripts, big staff and opinion monitors. Has he changed opinions, yes he has, as I have. Name one in the race who has not.
Sorry this is to long and I am not trying to argue or stir up needless debate. I have more but too long. Bill asked a good, respectful question and I can understand his feelings on Trump. These are my opinions and nothing more. Hope some people do read this and give some feed back.
Thank you Bill for a thoughtful, honest and reflective blog.
“I would say that Bill is an open minded moderate . . .”
Steve s,
Why do you called BillMac a moderate? I tend to think he is an open-minded “conservative.”
There are some “open-minded” conservatives lurking around.
Steve s,
Did you miss the question above?
CB Scott, I was judging Bill by the post I responded to, which I found to be moderate in tone to me. It is a subjective term to label some one, we are complex humans. In New York City I would be a far right wing nut, in Jacksonville Fl, I would be a moderate, in Athens Ga. I would be a flaming liberal, it is all about the viewpoint you bring into it and your environment. Labels are only good for generalizations and most are self proclaimed. Whatever anyone is I believe they should back up their opinions with facts and reasoning. The market place will determine if the idea has an appeal that last. What we really need are realist who are open to changing sea tides of opinion and events.
Steve s,
Thank you for the answer. So, can I take it that you are not of the SBC Boomer generation? For those of that generation of Southern Baptists, the words: moderate, liberal, conservative, and fundamentalist had very specific meanings.
I guess Bob Dylan was right. “The Times, They Are A Changin’.”
BTW, you are right as the rain in stating: “What we really need are realist who are open to changing sea tides.” ROLLING TIDES is always what “we really need.” Just ask Dave Miller. He loves the TIDE.
Steve,
I appreciate your response. I won’t interact with every point, but I do take strong exception to number 11. And really, number 11 makes me skeptical on the first 10. Trump is demonstrably not honest. He is blunt, but that is not the same thing. I won’t repost them all here, but I could make quite a long list of Trump’s lies. Falsehoods are a fact of life in politics, but I think Trump has elevated it to an art form.
Ask the people of Brooklyn if Trump is an honest man – Especially those who lived and worked there in the 1980’s.
Honest in the context of the high level Trump operates at is usually defined as it legal and can I get away with it. That applies to politicians also, Obama, Clinton, Bush, Rubio, is it unlawful and can I stretch the limits of the law. I meant Trump is being honest when he goes out unscripted and speaks his mind and how he truly feels. He goes on every show, he avoids no questions and he is what he is. All others avoid the public especially Hillary, but most candidates do not want to answer to the public.
One thing that is in his favor, no one close to Trump in business, personal or in his orbit have come out with negative items , and I must add yet. I am sure there is plenty of opposition research and the negatives will come out for publicity and money. No former wives, no former girlfriends, no business partners, no high level employees have come out and exposed Trump. Maybe they are waiting to help Dems but it would be hard to keep secret with all the attention he gets.
So you agree with my ten points but question his honesty, that is pretty good. Again what policy or statements do you disagree with Trump on now. he has changed his positions, his mind and hopefully his heart on certain matters but we all know to repent is to change. I have changed my mind on secular matters the only fact that can never change salvation found in Jesus , In Christ alone. However we must stay involved in this world and do the best we can.
No, I do not agree with your ten points, I just chose to respond to 11, because if a person lies continuously, you can’t believe anything he says on any issue.
What policies? Build a wall and make Mexico pay for it? Idiotic. Ban all Muslims from entering the country except athletes and diplomats? Idiotic. I don’t know what his other policies are.
I don’t know how you can say he is honest.
“I saw thousands of Muslims in NJ celebrating 911”. Lie
“I saw people jumping from the WTC from my building (4 miles away)” Lie
“I wasn’t talking about Fiorina’s looks, but her persona” Lie
“I wasn’t mocking that reporter’s disability” Lie
“I don’t do bankruptcy” Lie
“I received the Marine’s highest civilian award” Lie
Steve: Here’s the thing, even if Trump said something I agree with, I have absolutely no reason to believe him and every reason to disbelieve him.
I don’t care that he isn’t a Christian, I truly don’t (as far as being president is concerned). But I consider him a despicable human being. I don’t consider him intelligent, or mature. He is a child when it comes to people opposing him. He is vindictive. I’m not even convinced that he is that great a businessman. His father gave him a million dollars and he has made his money in the vice trade. He has also declared bankruptcy more often than any other company in the last 30+ years. I still don’t see it. I really don’t.
“. . . has made his money in the vice trade.”
As did Al Capone — can’t help but wonder if Al were around today could he get the evangelical vote.
He could say, “Hey all my operations are legit now and besides, Prohibition was a bad deal anyway. Stupid government should have known better, right? You guys know me. I will give ISIS and China a deal they can’t refuse. Know what I mean?”
A lot of emotion and that is fine. If you read Art of the Deal, which is what Trump really believes works (and it seems it does) his campaign is the MO of art of the deal. Bear with me and if I am wrong on Trump Modus Operandi than I am. I do not get Obama either but I do not deny the fact that twice the majority of American either agreed with him or did not know what he stood for, either way as a brilliant politician he won twice.
1. You want to sell a used car for 1000 dollars, where do you start 1k or 1200 or higher. You start at the top. Trump wants to stop illegal aliens and do something about the 30 million here illegally. You start with your dream number and hold on , you deal down or up but you deal. Better than what we have now.
2. We are in tough politics, in it to win. Romney would be President now but he was too nice to Obama. The job of a politician is to win, if you cannot beat Cruz, Rubio and Carson how can you beat clever China, Japan, Iran etc. It is what has always happened in politics again Trump is just more open and blatant about it. You are smart you know every politician slings the mud, attacks their foes or they lose. Romney lost by not using all the tools vs. Obama. Crying Glenn Beck is the voice of reason and common sense? Again all politicians honesty is a different standard. Example Trump personally has never claimed bankruptcy, his companies did 4 times, at his level it is a common legal not moral tactic.
3. Politicians expand the truth to get to a nugget of what the public perceive. Trump is so effective because he is bigger than life and that is his persona. No better bender of truth, reality and hid what he really believed than the great winner Obama and I say that with respect to his political ability. He is just a terrible national leader but a great politician and uses rough tactics. He beats the pants of the ineffective Republicans for 7 years.
4. Got to stop but I agree with Trump on national defense, immigration, trade, money policy, health care more than the others. Cruz is a great constitutional lawyer and a good man but we need a leader that can get it done.
that is why we have blogs like this to examine and exchange ideas, it is a good thing. How else will we see other points of views so thanks for the good feedback and being concerned. Way to much blind apathy in America.
“Example Trump personally has never claimed bankruptcy, his companies did 4 times, at his level it is a common legal not moral tactic.”
Steve s,
That is the same characterless rationalizing that Bill Clinton used when he stated, “I never had sex with that woman.”
Character still counts. It counts in any arena of life.
steve s
Regarding the Art of the Deal, exactly right. You don’t start negotiating at the price you want. Trump is negotiating with Mexico right now in the campaign by staking out a position he can negotiate from. It’s business negotiation 101.
I’ve read several articles here about how pastors should pursue an MBA instead of an MDiv. I don’t say this derogatorily, but as one who spent 20 years as a businessman before being called to preach, this is obvious about Trump. And I’ll also say this, as one who was never as remotely as successful a businessman a as Trump. In order to attain his level of success you have to surround your self with good people and also listen to them, and he does that. He delegates, something far to many pastors have no clue how to do. He manages. Yes, he’s the boss. But he makes informed decisions. You simply don’t succeed as he has if you don’t.
Character does matter, and I say this as someone completely cynical in regards to politicians in general. But what politician has really ever kept there word? Cruz comes close, but he, like all politicians has waffled, and changed on things. They all do. Good grief, Romney changed his mind on every social issue Trump has and Christians still voted for him. And if Trump is an idolotar in regards to money, what was Romney in regards to faith? Anyone ever heard a strong profession of faith from McCain, the one who led the way legislatively for all of these PAC’s which are so corrupting the system. We sure voted for him as well.
If we review our President’s, it impossible to find one who didn’t have pretty major character flaws. Heck, George Washington was a Freemason, slave owner and made his money as the largest distiller of alcohol in the country. Would we vote for him?
Like I’ve stated, I’m voting for Huckabee, but if it comes down to Trump as the nominee, I probably vote for him. Definitely not voting Dem but I have voted third party before and am not opposed to it.
And one thing I do believe, when the establishment on both sides is horrified by you, those dependent upon the status quo remaining as is, there is something more at work than just people don’t like Donald Trump. They fear he’d actually change their cash cow
Amen, CB. And while I’m at it: Bill Mac too.
John
You do realize that he sends out lawyers threatening lawsuits whenever someone even suggests saying anything negative about him.
steve s
Good synopsis. It’s really not that difficult to see. I think most Christians who so vehemently oppose Trump point to the character and values issues mostly. The electorate is not looking at those. That’ve voted for people who has those things to institute changes and once elected they’ve gone along instead of providing a loyal opposition. They feel betrayed. Cruz is an exception to this.
People are sick of the status quo, of politicians they perceive as more for themselves than the country, of a country they view as the greatest on earth going down the toilet. So they are rebelling. Trump isn’t running as a conservative, he never uses the word. He’s running as an America first populist. They’ve voted conservative and gotten diddly in return from those they’ve elected, so they turn to Trump. The devil they don’t know is preferable to the one they now know all to well.
Personally in our primary in SC, I’ll vote Huckabee
Thanks for the reply Jeff, I always hear on the news that people in Iowa vote for the best faith base candidate and Huckabee is not the front runner. I do not get why the press keeps saying that when if Trump or Cruz win or go 1 and 2 they will be more popular than a good Baptist preacher.
A country that voted twice for drafting dodging, cheating, lying, dishonest Bill Clinton is going to vote on values? Again do not get it.
Thanks for the input I appreciate it and I agree , I will go with Huckabee until hope is gone but will vote for Trump if he is on ballot and no Huckabee. Thanks Steve
Huckabee is my first choice. He’s a godly man and in my opinion experience as a governor is preferable to experience as a senator in qualifying one to be the President of the United States. It’s an entirely different skill set to be a legislator vs. an executive. However, Huckabee is not doing very well. I understand that if he doesn’t finish in the top 3 in Iowa that he will pull the plug on his campaign. If that happens, I’ll support Cruz. I could probably live with Rubio if I had to but, we can not let Trump get the nomination.
“That’ve voted for people who has those things to institute changes and once elected they’ve gone along instead of providing a loyal opposition.”
But even that argument defies logic as Trump is talking about working with and making deals with the very ones who epitomize the going along to get along crowd.
Also, it defies logic because HE is one of the main lobbyists that his supporters convey their politicians are beholden to….So, what? I guess they just want to cut out the middle man and sell out public policy directly to the lobbyists?
The complete irony is that by voting for him people are actually exacerbating the problems they say they hate – as he, himself, is the personification of it.
He’s an entertainment clown and a player and it appears that people are getting played like a fiddle but if he gets to play his music in the White House…. sure isn’t going to be funny.
Tarhill, Is not politics, which is the art of the possible, the very essence of “doing deals”. I believe Trump will do good deals for America not bad deals like now. Do you want a President that will not work for a solution that is good for all. Our early documents, our good laws and policy are a result of good deals. Bad deal are for example Iran and our trade policy.
Trump is telling us the truth that we all know. He had to be a “player” in NY politics or not quick building permits etc. He knows the game because he was part of it. He want to change it.
If you think Trump is going along to get along why all the talking heads, National Review, R. Moore and the establishment all out to get the man you think is going along to get along.
As Jeff P. said some may not like Trump values, tone, his social actions but compared to Clinton and Obama Trump is certainly no worse and is more honest , Trump is Trump not a phony machine made image.
Why is he more of a clown than the others? Because he talks to average voters in real unscripted sentences.
What policy of Trump do you oppose and whose policy is better. Not for religious values we are picking a national political leader.
“He’s an entertainment clown and a player and it appears that people are getting played like a fiddle but if he gets to play his music in the White House…. sure isn’t going to be funny.”
Tarheel,
I hope you are not a prophet. There was an Emperor in Rome named Nero who was very likable in the beginning. He too was an entertainer, a clown, a poet, a singer, a builder, some historians even say he played a “fiddle” although the violin was unknown to Italy during his lifetime. (Maybe he invented it kinda like one politician invented the internet.)
However, beginning around summertime of A.D. 64, the Christian population in and around Rome suffered greatly at the hands of this egotistical “entertainment clown” gone mad.
So, I pray you are no prophet and this clown does not play his “Trump”et while America burns.
If Clinton gets elected, she’ll be playing the banjo, while Bill plays the fiddle…laughing at America all the way to the dump.
If Sanders gets elected, then he’ll be playing the fiddle, while America goes down the toilet.
Vol,
Bill will be playing the fiddle and probably smoking big “cigars” in the White House again if Hillary get elected.
I don’t know if Hillary plays the banjo, but she sure plays fast and loose with emails.
If Sanders gets in the White House, he will have us give up our “toilets” cause that’s too much wealth for a “Democratic Socialist” to tolerate.
We will all have to build community outhouses and share Sears Roebuck Catalogs. Socialists do not tolerate private, indoor toilets.
CB,
I knew I could count on you for a great answer! Well done, my Crimson friend; well done.
Vol,
I cannot see what Sander’s appeal is to so many young voters. He is an admitted Socialist. Strange times.
CB
Sanders appeal is simple. Twenty something’s have attended liberal public schools and colleges for their entire lives, what would we expect them to believe. I also believe their is still merit to an old Churchill quote, ” if at twenty you are not a liberal you have no heart, but if at 40 you are not a conservative you have no brain.” My bigger issue is the older folks who follow the folly of Sanders
Jeff P.,
I know you are right about educational influence. I just hate to see it.
Yet, as one who has been involved with college students vocationally and as a parent of a crew of Millennials, I have to state there are many who have not “bowed a knee to Baal” (Socialism) and who do stand strong from biblical values.
CB, I would love to be wrong on this – I really would.
Tarheel,
I hope and pray you are wrong on this one.
Exactly what steve said. Name a businessman who doesn’t play both sides of the aisle? The Koch brothers give to Dems for crying out loud. That’s the system. It’s beyond broken. Trump very credibly speaks to its evils and has said from the beginning it has to change. In that I’m in full agreement with him
https://www.facebook.com/DefendAmerica/videos/962222210492103/
Excellent video.
For generations both Conservatives and Christians have loudly proclaimed the importance of character in our leadership. Now that there is the prospect of a “strongman” to carry their banner ( so he says) some seem willing to throw the need for character and consistency out the window.
Trumpism is the same instinct, however understandable, that elected other authoritarian figures in history.
Someone famous said that Christians don’t believe in democracy because we believe people are basically good. We believe in democracy because we know they are not.
Except for Trump, all the other politicians are merely putting on a show. Trump is for real, he is a rough diamond, nevertheless a true diamond. The other candidates are only fakes and try to sell themselves as the real thing.
The majority of the Republican party sees Trump as I do and he will not be pushed around by anyone. As much as I love Bernie Sanders I’m still tempted to vote for Trump. I saw two Harvard law professors on the news the other day, they said Cruz has a birth problem that is real. Rubio is crazy, he would say anything for a vote, and this country could not endure another Bush.
Except for Trump, I think we have the lowest caliber of republican candidates in history. One poll showed Trump is more popular than the Pope. I’ve tried hard to see the preachers views here on Voices, but you all have nothing to stand on if you’re thinking about voting for someone other than Trump. You all think you are right, but the rest of the Republican party thinks you are wrong.
Bill,
reading your article brought this to mind, written from an author earlier today day….”if a candidate is the real McCoy, he’ll also have a quality product with a list of ingredients (again, a policy-position webpage) for the discriminating shopper. But if he’s smart he’ll understand that most people are impulse buyers with relatively short memories and recognize the importance of branding himself. Coca-Cola has “Coke is it!” Nike “Just do it!” and Barack Obama had “Yes, we can!” (no, he couldn’t — but it worked). Now, can you think of a GOP candidate other than Trump identifiable by way of a catchy and popular slogan? And it’s no coincidence that “Make America Great Again” was also Reagan’s slogan in 1980.”
Trump is just now getting warmed up….. the fun begins in a few days. I will still be amazed if he survives the cattle call to Rubio from the GOP faithfuls, but unfortunately for Cruz, his ship is getting shot at from all sides. I’m not sure he survives. Rubio is probably the guy to beat, and Trump is just getting the skids greased to make that push in about 30 days. This is gonna get fun!
And just to be clear,… the reason it will be Trump or Rubio is because they are essentially the same critter. They both can be supported by the “establishment” (whatever that is). But both guys will push the same buttons that the majority of the GOP want pushed.
JMO, I think you are severely underestimating the utter disdain that exists for politics as is right now. Iowa is a strange animal with the caususes, as they don’t allow the participation level a primary does. But if Trump does win there, he doesn’t lose and runs the table. If he loses but still wins NH and SC, he’ll come out of Super Tuesday with a huge lead. If anyone thinks Republicans are going to listen to establishment politicians like Nikki Haley or Lindsey Graham here where I live in SC, they are delusional.
There is an undercurrent in this election unlike any I have seen and it’s not going anywhere.
Jeff P., I am with you on there is never an election like this. Trump and Trump alone has come along and changed everything about politics as usual. One comment here is now Trump is part of the establishment and will be under their control? Where did that come from. What is unbelievable is that Trump has bested the established professional establishment Republicans, he has so far bested the National Review, Charles Krauhammer, George Will and all of the out of touch doctrine conservatives who live in a bubble in New York and Washington and he is beating the big money donors who control the nomination. Bush has spent over 70 million dollars, wow. Trump has done this almost single handed. Is he moving toward the Republican center to get elected? Of course, Jeff, you know because that is the art of the deal.
When I talk to people and even some on this site they paint Trump as silly, unserious, foolish and all the other descriptions on a personal level but seldom address his stated concerns and issues he addresses.
For example I totally agree with Trump’s hard stance on immigration as it is what is changing the social and economic fabric of our country. If people do not agree with it, they seldom tell why or what they disagree with, just that Trump is unchristian, a hater, stupid, racist and not serious. If an army of 20 to 30 million crossed a countries borders, commanded use of their native language, used public benefits , weakened the economic pay scale of workers and demanded citizenship it would be called an invasion. Mexico unemployment rate is rarely over 5.5 percent the past 15 years as they send their unemployed here. So if I agree with Trump on a policy issue have I lost my Christian values like a leader of an organization I have faithfully supported for over 45 years suggest.
As someone stated on this blog before I just do not get it, why Trump who is at least pro American and tells what he thinks,receives so much scorn on a personal level. Bush, Rubio, Cruz, Carson and certainly Rand Paul I do not agree with on policies and issues but they are not clowns, haters and all the names thrown at Trump. I guess beauty and political decision is in the eye of the beholder
Steve: You seem to be under the impression that because Trump is winning, he must be right. I concede that he is winning, but that makes me despair of our country.
I don’t believe Trump cares squat about the country, only in so far as it reveals his greatness. He cannot deliver what he is promising, even assuming we wanted him to. He doesn’t want to be president, he wants to be Putin. He doesn’t want to govern, he wants to rule. That is all he has known.
Does it not give you pause at all that he is vicious and demeaning towards women? Does it not concern you that he engages in childish twitter wars with people he doesn’t like?
He lies as easily as he breathes but you keep saying that it passes for honesty “at his level”, whatever that means.
Under Bush the world began to hate us. Under Obama they began to lose their respect for us. Under Trump, the world will just laugh.
I don’t actually fear that last bit however, because a Trump candidacy means a Clinton win.
Bill, my point about Trump winning and beating the money people, the establishment and overcoming the press is that he is effective and hardworking , traits you want in a President. At least with the majority of Republican voters so far they believe he is on the right course based on his actions and stated positions.
So far no woman I know of has come out with any charge or evidence of Trump being hostile to women. Trump promotes and uses quite a number of women in his business dealings. The twitter and TV appearances is his style to get his message and persona across, this is the age of the new media sources. What medium are we communicating on and I am a baby boomer. Who is following Bush, Rubio, Carson, Kasich on twitter ,not many. Does not make Trump right, it makes him effective and so far winning.
When at say “at his level” what passes for honesty is it does it break the law and can I get it done. Trump has been in NY city under liberal Mayors like Dinkins, Lindsley, Bloomberg, Koch and even the guy now and has prospered. Obama health care promises, you can keep your Doctor, you can keep your policy if you like it is an example of politician honesty. In my lifetime back to Nixon politicians of all parties bend the truth on matters.
Again what policy or issue does Trump state that you object too? Look at the postings, there is a lot of descriptions and feelings about Trumps motives, his perceived character flaws, his sincerity , his motives and broad statements. Trump is not Nero, he is not Putin, he is not a clown, he is not a cartoon figure and a liar any more than most people in the public eye. Trump is a secular person it seems who has a big ego, even President Carter had a big ego.
Again, what issues or policy stated by Trump does the anti Trump people find so offensive? I agree with Trump on health care when he first flirted with the idea of running years ago. He is right about Syria and the Middle East and so on. He is not perfect but he goes where most of the others do not .
I will compare Trump to President Obama in this manner. I do not agree with the President on many of his policies and viewpoints ,actually most of them I disagree. I disagree with him on the issues and how he governs. I do not call him a liar, un American, a Muslim, a Communist or use his race as a reason to disrespect him. I do not like the many people that do even when I agree with their policy positions. There are many real policy reasons to disagree with Obama without getting into personal insults and slanders. Same with President G. Bush who was vilified by many in a personal, demeaning way void of facts of which there was much to be critical.
That is all I am saying. What issues of policy drive people to be so passionate about being anti Trump.
Thanks for sharing your opinions as like you stated correctly, I just do not get it either why there is such a divergence of opinion on many subjects by good, thoughtful people, I guess that is why they have focus groups. Even Frank Luntz seems biased to me but that is my personal opinion.
To justify the actions and statements of Trump or any other person by stating that he/she is honest for a person “at his level” is simply not in accord with a biblical worldview.
There is only one “level” of honesty. That is the level of honesty that is plainly described consistently in Scripture.
Under Trump they will say “Welcome to our world.”
Amen CB.
“So far no woman I know of has come out with any charge or evidence of Trump being hostile to women. ”
Steve: Now you are not being honest. You are in denial.
http://www.cnn.com/videos/tv/2015/08/08/keeping-them-honest.cnn
http://fortune.com/2015/08/09/trump-insult-women-history/
Bill Mac
And yet Trump, who you say in anti-woman, has placed them in positions of substantial power in his businesses since the 1980’s. Hired them and paid them on an equal scale as men. Is he crass as in the dust up with Kelly or comments on Rosie O’Donnell? No doubt. But Trump has treated women better than the Dem champions who still pay them less than a man
If women in the market place of ideas want to be in the big leagues of public affairs they are as open to insults, innuendos and unfair treatment as men. I agree with you Jeff and it is emotion driven by the establishment sections who turn I agree stupid, crass insults made to stimulate attention into a policy and personal statement about women. Trump is a secular person with a big ego and plays the media like a fiddle. Democrats and establishment Republicans would never attack or insult a conservative woman , look at the fair treatment Palin has received from the conservative establishment and the press. Dwell on the words and media persona not the facts, use the kitchen sink. Trump has always married strong women and he is a man of his time period. Look at the critics conservative Christians get for their views on roles of women, we treat women worse according to the liberal press. It is a non issue if Trump wins nomination, he will tone it down as he wants to win. Secular, worldly Trump like beautiful women and is mean to his critics, stop the presses , we have an scoop. Trump is mean and picks on all who oppose him to win, should he exempt women or are they in a special zone in the secular world?
Steve: You seem to be willing to excuse anything Trump does as “just his style” or the age we live in.
I’ll say this again. It doesn’t matter if Trump happens to say something that I agree with. I don’t believe him. Effective and hard working? Name any dictator that wasn’t. I don’t believe Trump can do the things he’s promised. I don’t believe he means the things he says. I don’t believe he wants to make America great and I don’t think he is capable of doing so. He made his fortune on the backs of the poor dupes who come lay down their money at the casinos, and he continues to dupe people. Same tactics, different game.
So your mind is made up and there is nothing that will change your opinion of Donald Trump, no other opinions, no events that man alter your opinion and it is a closed subject. I get it and that is certainly your right. So the pro abortion, anti traditional marriage and socialist party will be your choice if Trumps is the Republican or will you just not vote? Just asking as it many come to that and I wonder how many will do that . Will Trump lose more support than the new voters he may bring.
“Trump has always married strong women”
This is so ludicrous Steve, are you reading yourself?
Based on their public behavior and public announcements they are strong women, successful women, what is wrong with that statement that is my opinion based on public knowledge. Are they weak women?
I could certainly change my mind about Trump, but a man who never apologizes and never admits that he is wrong is not likely to change my mind. My information about Trump would have to change and I don’t know where that would come from.
I will not vote for the Democratic nominee and I will not vote for Trump. There are some lines I just won’t cross. That’s why I’m so vehement in my opposition to Trump, while there’s still time.
It is my opinion that Trump would be the worst president of all the main candidates.
The traits I want in a president above all are honesty and integrity, neither of which Trump has ever exhibited. Do you know why we get ridiculous statements from his people like “I’ve worked for Donald Trump for ten years and I’ve never known him to be wrong” and “Donald Trump will be the healthiest president in the history of our nation”? Because anything less than fawning adoration and he turns on people like a rattlesnake.
Bill, I get it you will not support Trump because of his personal traits and conduct. This is fine and as it should be, we should all vote your beliefs. However just to show how items slip under the radar of most people a current favorite of many now is Marco Rubio. I have no problem if Rubio is the nominee and will vote for him but if you use the yard stick applied to Trump here are some facts about Rubio presented in an anti Trump manner just to illustrate emotion vs. analysis.
1. Rubio is a liar and lies to get Cuban votes. For years Rubio stated his parents came to America to escape Castro for political freedom. Fact is they came here in 1956, 3 years before Castro but Rubio needed to stoke up the Cuban vote. When confronted he changed the story that his parents wanted to go back to Cuba but could not after Castro. His family story is a great story of good people raising a good family in America and doing great. He did not have to embellish it but he did, but I would still vote for him over a Democrat or some of the other people.
2.He Betrays his voting public.- Rubio won over Charlie Crist and got the Republican Senate nomination over the establishment Charlie Crist only with the full support and vote of conservatives and Tea Party activists. Within weeks of going to Washington he betrayed their trust and went with Democrats and establishment Republicans (Gang of 8) and pushed the unpopular immigration reform bill which failed because the American people do not want it. Rubio thought the bill would enhance his White House run. That is why he will not run again in Fl, he knows he will lose. he is still flip flopping on this issue because he knows the majority of voters do not want it.
3.Dishonest, Financial woes and does not know how to manage finances, While Speaker of Fl. House and Republican State official many financial questions on his use of credit cards and funds. I will not go into all of this but if it was Trump it would be highlighted Cheater, Dishonest. Personally I respect Rubio, he is an American success story and from humble but good background. He has had many irregular finance issues but I respect his ability to achieve. He was and is the poorest (in money) of the Senate but he will not be when he leaves.
4. Untrustworthy and disloyal , Bush was his mentor and friend, Rubio joined race knowing he was going to hurt his backer, mentor and friend, there was an understanding. Now that is his right to run but he is young and could have waited but he knows he will not get reelected Senator.
5. No hard work ethic in Senate , not involved or cares . Knows he is one term and acts it. Record shows in Senate.
6. No depth , great at stump speech and sound bites. If the fact that your Dad a bartender and your Mom a maid qualifies you for WH, Rubio is in.
7. Goes with the flow, like Trump and all the others, His appeal to conservative Christians in Iowa is a brilliant and artful way of threading the needle. He honesty admits when pressed he follows his Catholic doctrines yet he appears to be on video and speech a born again , Christ Alone believer . I am not judging his religious beliefs or faith just admiring his political skill. I voted for Romney , would vote for a Catholic, does not have to pretend to be a conservative Christian, .
I will stop but my point is not to bash Rubio, I will vote for him over Democrat and he has many good points. My Point is to show how the Trump foes constant bashing of him and dismissing him as a clown etc. would work with anyone if you wanted to go that way. However that is my opinion and excuse me this is way to long. Again personally I like Rubio and his family. I disagree with him on issues and try to stick to that even if Trump does not.
Jeff, I agree…. and that is the reason that the race tends toward a Trump/Rubio heat. It will take a few states for voters to decide, and if Trump continues down the Reagan type path…he has a chance to run the tables.
But, at the end of the day Trump is only a more brash testifier of what Rubio will push to do for the GOP. Trump knows the GOP well!
The most interesting thing to me so far is why the Trump rhetoric is so powerful this go around….and it does appear that it is because of the Republican controlled Congress that is bound to be ineffective. In other words, the previous speaker of the House has been a large part of Trumps rise in the eyes of a conservative.
The total capitulation of McConnell and Boehner on issues they said they would fight for has definitely helped the stage for this. The elephant in the room is a large part of the Rep base, and even socially conservative Dems, do not trust either pRty anymore.
“The total capitulation of McConnell and Boehner on issues they said they would fight for has definitely helped the stage for this.”
Jeff P.,
I do not know you personally. Therefore, take the following with a grain of salt:
That one statement you made about McConnell and Boehner may be the greatest understatement you have ever made manifest from your mortal being in any medium possible by which humans communicate.
Boehner should have been crying alligator tears about his messy self long before he met with the Pope. He craw-fished on America and let the POTUS and his minions whodo him shamefully.
Chris: I also was not disagreeing but asking a legitimate question. What is termed political correctness is simply the Golden rule. Why is the term political correctness always used.
“if Trump continues down the Reagan type path”
To put Trump and Reagan in the same sentence is ludicrous.
Debbie, you must if you utter the slogan, whether one loves or hates Trump…Trump is using it in much the same manner has Reagan. Reagan also made a nice little “change” in his political vision when entering presidential politics. http://www.iagreetosee.com/portfolio/make-america-great-again/
The difference Chris is that Reagan sincerely changed and was one of the finest Presidents to ever lead our country. He did not use the rhetoric that Donald does. And the list could go on.
Debbie…I don’t disagree with you. Trump is not “politically correct” with being “politically correct”. He is simply getting free and continuous coverage from the most gullible of this world…the Media. Media loves attention, and the Donald knows how to keep their stock higher.
Why is plain human kindness always called political correctness? Chris really? Who are we as Christians if not treating humans kindly?
This is another thing I don’t get. If the lost are kinder and more respectful toward human beings than we are, wow. That’s not right.
I think there are those who know supporting Trump is wrong and just don’t care. They want what they want. These excuses are getting lamer and lamer.
Debbie,…you seem to disagree that I am agreeing with you. So, with that I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.
Chris: I also was not disagreeing but asking a legitimate question. What is termed political correctness is simply the Golden rule. Why is the term political correctness always used
Political correctness and the Golden Rule are absolutely not the same thing at all.
Unless you think that dishonesty is a part of the Golden Rule.
John Wylie: What are you talking about??
Debbie, political correctness has nothing to do with kindness, it has to do with avoiding sensitive subjects in order to avoid offending people. The Golden Rule has to do with treating people in the same manner as you would prefer to be treated. They are not the same thing at all.
Debbie, this is today’s drive-by:
Debbie Kaufman said:
“What is termed political correctness is simply the Golden rule.”
In the words of the most wise volfan: smh
I do agree with John Wylie’s post above.
Ken P,
🙂
David
May I try to restate Debbie’s point?
(If I get it wrong, Debbie can rebuke me – she’s done that more than once!)
With Donald Trump, the issue is not that he is “politically incorrect” but that he is rude. Political correctness is stupid. But what Trump is doing is being a bully, a brute, a jerk. That’s no better.
Yes…Trump is rude, no doubt about it!
To equate Trump and Rubio defies logic. It is ridiculous Chris. Are you seriously making such an argument? Have you watched Rubio’s speeches. He has won over the hearts and minds of many here in Iowa. He is exactly the opposite of Trump – substantive, genuine. To put forward such an idea is ludicrous. I’m sorry, it is moronic. I know you are not a moron, but to somehow compare the two, as if they are cut from the same cloth – I don’t know how anyone can say such a thing with a straight face.
Dave…It goes deeper than that…. Trump and Rubio are digging out of the same pot. At the end of the day, it is those two who will garner the majority of the GOP (Trump was buying what Rubio has been selling for many years, and now Rubio is letting it play….this doesn’t square with the newcomers, or the purest seekers). That’s all I am saying. May seem moronic though 🙂
Rubio is no dummy, and he is not Mr. smily nice guy either. Probably the reason he will do well in politics.
Dave, I hope that the voters in Iowa place Rubio as high as possible to give him some momentum. He is for the American foundations of free trade, adding value to products for profit and equity (capitalism), and for life…..unlike any of his Democratic rivals.
Chris Johnson,
I do appreciate your clarification to Dave Miller as to your crediting Rubio as being like Trump. I had intended to ask you why you did that myself.
Now, allow me to ask you if you have listened to Rubio’s testimony of faith.
I realize he identifies himself as a Catholic, however, his testimony is that of a person who trusts Christ and Christ alone for his salvation.
In addition, I believe, as I assume you do also, that Catholic theology is not biblical in is primary essence. Nonetheless, I do believe there are many Catholics who, even though they remain in the Catholic Church, are true followers of Christ.
I believe that just as I believe there is are multitudes of people who are in Southern Baptist churches who are not true followers of Christ, several of whom are leaders in local churches, local associations, state conventions, and yes, working in the SBC.
Chris, I have listened to Rubio’s testimony several times and have no reason to say it is anything but genuine.
Chris, I always value your comments here. I think you to be a guy one could ride the river with in any battle. Therefore, I hope you respond to my questions about Rubio.
cb,
“Catholic theology is not biblical in is primary essence. Nonetheless, I do believe there are many Catholics who, even though they remain in the Catholic Church, are true followers of Christ.”
I completely agree, and as with Rubio and his journey with Christ,…his testimony persuades me to believe that the Spirit has made him alive, even though his understanding of Roman Catholic theology is not deep, with respect to his use of “infused”. That is probably to his advantage. I hope he listened well to Rick Blackwood before he returned to the liturgy of the RC.
Rubio probably has the best opportunity to win in politics by remaining in the Catholic church ranks and his cultural background. His story and testimony about his relationship with the Holy Spirit will probably work for most Christians.
Just my take on Rubio, you and I share the same opinion of RC’s. I think Rubio’s profession is genuine. The contradiction is his statements that he fully supports RC doctrine which clearly doesn’t reflect Evangelical beliefs. Let’s be honest, Rubio has been all over the road in regards to faith throughout his life.
Chris Johnson, Jeff P.,
Thanks for your response and thank you Jeff P, for your comment also.
I am glad that I am not alone in believing there are true believers in the Catholic Church. I know some folks who will not do so due to family ties.
I think you are right, Jeff P., that Rubio has been “all over the road” about issues of faith.
I also think Chris is right about his not coming out of the Catholic Church has greatly to do with his “cultural background.” I, for one, know it is a hard journey to lay down one’s cultural background. One’s cultural development seems to always be trying to hitch a ride with us wherever we go in this earthly vessel. Anyway, I know that to be true in my life.
A fellow’s cultural background is just “a hard cat to clean after.”
CB
Still have no clue how he was a Mormon for a while. You talk about contradicting his cultural background.
cb,
Rubio is not too unlike a lot of politicians when it come to spiritual matters. Politicians play it for what its worth to them in the world of politics.
I do think Rubio seems sincere and more grounded in what he believes. Cruz is on par with Rubio as well from where I watch. Trump is probably the most cautious of the group to put his faith (no matter the substance) out there for scrutiny. One thing is for certain, Politics is never ultimately a litmus test for Spiritual matters in the great scheme of things… unless one believes that a Theocracy is in order.
btw… I am speaking at George State University (Atlanta) in mid-February and may try to coax you half way from your neck of the woods for a coffee. 🙂
Jeff,
Rubio “became” mormon only through his association with friends in the neighborhood he was living. He was between the ages of 8-13. His dad never attended….so, this was most likely a good time to spend with his friends and stay out of trouble as he would say….
Yep, Jeff P.,
That Mormon thing is a boggler of confusion about Rubio. If I am not mistaken, his mother got the family into the Latter Day Saints in his younger days.
Chris Johnson,
I would like nothing better than to have coffee with you and talk about Jesus. However, I am no longer in the Peach State. Nor am I working in Academia any longer.
I am now in the Far Blue Mountains of Eastern Kentucky serving a local church as pastor. (It is a good local church and I am humbled with their call to me and honored to serve them as a shepherd for The Great Shepherd.)
However, we do have a number of colleges and universities in this neck of the woods. So, if you get anywhere around Lexington, Pikeville, Hazard, Harlan, Prestonsburg, or any one of the “college towns” near me, let me know. I will be more than glad to spend some time with you.
cb… you are true to crimson color my friend. You dominate all areas of the country :). The nation is never too large. send me your latest coordinates…csjohnsonnetwork@gmail.com UK is always trying to rope me in…..
cb,…never mind, my investigators found you and listened to your message of “Regeneration” and gave the thumbs up. I’ll reach out to you sometime in the future. 🙂
Chris Johnson,
As to us getting together if “UK ropes you in,” I shall answer you as did the good men of First McD say to me about the resent snow and its removal from the parking lots of the church buildings:
“We’ll get er done”
Also in that list is my alma mater, Asbury College (now Asbury University), about 20 miles from Lexington in Wilmore (a college and seminary town with 2 whole stoplights).
Ben Coleman,
That is the place where the Asbury Revival took place. I took a class there once myself when Maxie Dunnam was president.
Please tell me, CB, that they don’t have you wearing KY blue; do they? If that’s true, then that is 20 times worse than Trump winning the Repub. nomination.
They don’t even know what a football looks like in KY.
David
Eyup. I was at Asbury (College, not the seminary) a few years later, 1975-1978.
Volfan – I can’t speak to football, but when I was at Asbury, they had a decent soccer team – mainly due to a number of MK students from South America.
Soccer? Aint that something they play in Europe?
CB, do you see what’s going on, in KY? All they know about are round balls like soccer and basketball. I bet they even play volleyball, up there.
But, they know nothing about football. And, they wear blue…like in depressed. They’re blue about not knowing football.
CB, don’t go hunting wildcats, up there, either. They don’t like that.
David
I think you’re confused. The game you call soccer *is* football. That other game should properly be called hangegg. See here: http://img.memecdn.com/football-handegg_o_76029.webp
Vol,
Still wearing Crimson. However, if I ever learn the rules of basketball, I will cheer for UK. They really like that sport here.
Its difficult enough to vote for a representative of a party whose representatives give lip service to “capitalism”, and then vote the other direction. But, I certainly will not vote for a representative of a party that whole heartedly builds a platform to kill the unborn, kill God’s design for marriage, and progressively undercuts capitalistic foundations by replicating well worn socialistic fundamentals that have never advanced the value of goods.
It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure that one out.
Well said and so right on. Now if Russell Moore stated what you stated so well and said if you vote for a Democrat you might question your Christian values I would be hard press to argue about it. Abortion is murder and a major political party of our nation actively supports but focus is on Republican primary candidates, all who oppose abortion.
Wanna talk issues? I think those of us on this forum to have spoken disapproval of trumps Carnival barker candidacy have consistently mentioned several of those but I’ll do a rundown again –
Trump supports abortion “big time” in his own words. He will not move to reduce or stop it – again in his own words. Every time he spoken on the issue until the last six months he has clearly articulated a pro choice position.
Now in the last six months he is become pro life. I think it’s crass pandering which would defy your notion of his incredible honesty. However let’s look at his argument for now being pro-life:
“Because a woman I knew considered an abortion and did not have it, but her child grow up to be a “beautiful, wonderful person” – so now I oppose abortion.”
Does the above sound like a principled change of mind? And what if the person that he refers to child did not turn out to be a “beautiful person” (in his subjective opinion) would he have “changed his mind” on abortion?
How about his decades- long support of European style socialized medicine – espoused as recently as the first presidential debate back in August and an interview on 60 minutes since.
How about his rabid support of eminent domain – he says it eminent domain is a good thing and ” he loves it” because without it we wouldn’t have hospitals and roads – however what he’s failing to mention is that he is, again, decades long support of eminent domain and use of it – had nothing to do with hospitals or roads – but merely his own personal businesses. Honestly, I support eminent domain when it’s absolutely necessary for things like hospitals and roads so long as reasonable and good faith accommodations are made to the landowners – these have not been the case when he has bulldozed over people’s property in rights so he could build casinos.
How about the Constitution – how many times of you heard this want to be strongman cite it? How well versed is he in it? How about separation of powers? We’ve endured many years – including the bush administration – where executive power has been increased – what exactly and Donald trumps personality, background, and statements on the campaign trail lead you to believe that increased power for the executive would be cut back to constitutional levels?
Not a single one of these positions and issues named above demonstrate Donald Trump to be anywhere near a conservative – however there are other candidates in the race who have demonstrated backgrounds and records that they are.
#trusTed
Tarheel, as I’ve stated above, Trump/Rubio are the same. Cruz is different, but will get crushed this go around because of only a few inconsistencies. He may not be nasty enough to be in Presidential politics. Cruz will need to figure out how to grow some teflon and quick to remain competitive.
On top of that his constant demeaning of women, mocking of a disabled man, Savage attacks on anyone who dares to disagree with him on any single issue, his constant turn on a dime attacks on people who are “great people and great friends” the moment they disagree with him or come close to him in the polls.
I mean for goodness sake’s he called the man who performed the first successful pediatric brain separation A “mediocre doctor”.
Even take the issue of cruz “Citizenship” – in September Trump said that he had had his best lawyers look at it and other really really smart people and Ted Cruz has nothing to worry about he can run and by the way Ted is a great guy – now that Cruz is gaining on him in the polls he’s a nasty guy and he can’t run because he’s not a citizen.
Guess that’s just more telling it like it is – in complete honesty – #not
Seems to me like more self-serving, self-aggrandizing, selfish, arrogant, Obama like sensitivity to criticism.
#trumpisobamainanotherbody
Trump plays the evolving “political” game well. It takes time to work through the dross. Yet if one subscribes to the current administrations goals and substance…it is all dross.
Evolving – Who does that sound like?
There are a lot of similarities to style with Trump and Obama. Yet, a clear world of difference in their foundations. Trump would never be a socialist…its not in his background. Obama would never be a capitalist…its not in his background.
I would never agree with Trumps rhetoric or political branding methodology. On the other hand,…Trumps foundation of capitalism is certainly in line with biblical foundations for economic value, where Obama’s (Hillary or Sanders) socialism is certainly out of step with biblical economic foundations.
A Trump presidency (not really sure he can beat Rubio) would be infinitely better than a Hillary presidency (should she not go to prison; Biden would not be any better should she go to the slammer…Bernie has no chance).
Thank you for outlining some issues that you disagree with Trump on. You have stated and supported your political disagreements with Trump in a good way. Here is what I think about the same issues
1. Trump has changed his position on abortion for whatever reason even if it is political. It is no secret. Does anyone think that this secular, less faithful nation will outlaw all abortions. They should and we should, pray, demonstrate and do all we can but we live in a political world. Sadly and tragically the majority of voting Americans support legalize abortions and that is a political reality. Trump and his Art of the Deal background might do what the many good, sincere anti abortion politicians have not, stop Planned Parenthood in their activity support by taxes and get on a path to limit abortions that most American might support versus the Democrat policy of abortion on demand. Does Trump have the bone fides on abortion as Santorum or Huckabee of course not, but he might win and at least , probably for political reasons try to influence the issue. If the Republican have House and Senate he will certain support any anti abortion presented if nothing else for political value. I would vote for Huckabee in a minute if I thought he would win and change abortion laws but that is not going to happen.
2. Health Care- again back in 1999 Trump came out for universal health care for all Americans. He was right in my opinion. How many people do you know in America that does not get health care if they seriously need it. Right now all Americans are de facto covered but we will not admit it. Even illegal aliens are by law mandated to have access to health care. A 50 year old person, worked hard for a company 25 years gets laid off, he has no health care benefits and his new job usually will not offer it, is that what we want, no coverage for families who job went to Mexico? A baby that was not aborted as we pray for is born to a poor family but has lifetime medical issues but cannot get insurance, is that what we want. Again I am not a purist who stands on rigid political positions and I think health care should be addressed far better than the terrible Obama care which is just an insurance company ruse to put us under single payer. Too long to fully address here into but in general election Americans will agree with Trump on this issue.
3. Eminent Domain, No public housing, downtown restoration , mass transit, job producing districts would be done without Eminent Domain. It should be controlled, monitored and used only when necessary but to criticize a builder for using eminent domain is like criticizing a butcher for using a knife, it is a tool of the trade if approved by an elected government. Keystone pipeline will use much eminent domain and it is a foreign financed and owned business. For the record the lady Atlantic City still has her house and she won her case. This is a conservative go down with the ship on principle establishment conservative issue that most Americans do not care about or would agree with Trump if used correctly as it usually is.
4. The Constitution, the establishment leaders in the House and Senate who oppose Trump have allowed President Obama to ignore the Constitution, that is what their money backers want. Trump is anti the free trade agreements, NAFTA, China trade policies that Congress has ceded their treaty consent powers and duty to President Obama to get trade deals done for their money masters. Trump is a deal maker and will do it the way the country was founded on, by common sense comprise and hate to say it doing deals, The Declaration, Constitution , major laws and good budgets all came from political foes doing deals. I trust Trump more than the candidates who have gotten millions from parties to do what? I trust Trump more than the Democrats and at least as much as the Repub field except the legal scholar Cruz who is a true unwavering purist on this issue
I thank you for your post and sticking with the issues. I am sorry I am so wordy but cannot sound bite some issues. It is good to examine the issues with people of good faith who disagree with me. For the record, I would wish there was any candidate that could stop abortion immediately and I know you feel the same. Thanks for the dialogue.
Based on your post here it seems as if you are not a conservative – at least not in the traditional sense – so objections to trump on the basis that he is not a conservative still stand because you just articulated positions that are not conservative as a reason that you support him.
As for abortion – you admit that it may be simply a change of mind for political reasons – doesn’t that undermine your argument that he constantly tells the truth and is a game changer in his honesty?
Also, changing for political expediency is not changing your position a person who is pro life must be so to his core – understanding that totally outlawing it as you put it will perhaps never happen – but if one is not philosophically to the core against abortion then he will most likely allow increments take place that make the situation worse and not better.
I do not classify myself or blindly follow conservative, liberal or other social construct labels applied usually for short hand id . If Trump has had no personal change on his views on abortion I cannot know. I only can go on what he says will be his policy position. We can do no worse than events that have happened since Roe V Wade.
So the “conservative” leaders who keep the doctrine pure, supportedRomney, who really had to pretend to be conservative, McCain who is truly a maverick when it comes to opposing Republicans, Paul Ryan and the trade policy of Obama plus the Presidency of GW Bush. Why we have to label ourselves to support our positions I do not agree with.
On the abortion issue , what have the conservative Republicans including Bush and Congress really done to prevent, repeal or even limit abortion except talk tough. They just had a chance to defund Planned Parenthood of abortion money and would not do it. Trump could do no worse, no matter where his true heart is.
Again on the honesty issue Trump is being honest on how he operates. Rubio is pretending to be an evangelical in Iowa, Bush tough on immigration, Cruz anti H1B and immigration issues, but Trump as the front runner gets the attention and heat. Trump is honest in how politics work, for example what do the people who gave Bush over 110 million dollars want, he is anti super Pac’s that conservative ? McCain pushed. So it is all in your slant of politics and judgment. Appreciate the dialogue as I am in house restricted for a few days. We are talking issues, thanks
Tarheel
Christians have voted conservative every election. Even when conservatives have won, they have not followed through on the conservatism they professed while campaigning. People are simply fed up with “conservative” politicians who campaign one way yet govern another and conservative talking heads who live in a bubble and espouse policy theories that have led to less conservatism all the while supporting the same compromising, so-called conservative politicians.
Bush did a lot to develop/promote a culture of life. Obama undid a lot of it. Also SCOTUS is important! I want a principled constitutional and prolife conservative (not expedient) pro lifer appointing justices.
I’m going to visit a church member in the hospital but I’ll share details later.
Tarheel,
Bush also increased spending at levels unmatched except by Obama, appointed John Roberts who capitulated on gay marriage, his father appointed Sutter, No Child Left Behind which further centralized education in Washington, no comprehensive immigration reform(40 years of that), increased international aid, and many more things. Since him, the nominees have grown even less conservative with McCain and Romney. Can you see how a large segment of Republicans are fed up?
steve s,
You stated: “I do not classify myself or blindly follow conservative, liberal or other social construct labels applied usually for short hand id.”
However, you did classify BillMac as a moderate. That seems to be the use of a double-standard on your part. You constant defense of Trump’s integrity by stating he has honesty for one who deals at “his level” smacks of the same adherence of a double-standard on your part.
I can’t speak for Tarheel in an absolute fashion, but I think his stating that “you are not a conservative” is based on something beyond regional ideas of conservatism such as you used to defend your calling BillMac a moderate.
I think Tarheel’s stating you are not a conservative is based on the perspective of worldview rather than strictly on regional or political perspectives.
I think that Tarheel was speaking of a conservatism from the perspective of a biblical worldview.
I tend to take the same position regarding what I read of your comments in these threads relating to Trump and his morality.
You seem to advance and defend Trump using as your source of reasoning his book, The Art of the Deal.
Others here are rejecting Trump using as their source of reasoning, the Bible.
The Art of the Deal does not promote a biblical worldview. Only in the Scriptures do we find the source document for a biblical worldview.
You, me, and any other follower of Christ are, by our spiritual birthing, to live and think in accord with a biblical worldview. It is our failure to do so that has greatly attributed to the situation in which we now find ourselves in the political arena.
Ok – I’m back – but I need add nothing except….yeah….what CB said.
Yes steve s,… I just hope Russell Moore doesn’t get into politics, since he doesn’t do “it” very well. Yet, there is really no more clear answer for Christians but to go and read through God’s law that preceded the levitical law and understand our mission. Politics tend to make one waiver on understanding that mission. Yet as other prophets of old demonstrate…its never too late to be intimately involved in God’s work even while working for, or being involved in the Government in power by the telling the truth and being obedient to prayer.
Amen, so be it, love the old saying Pray as everything is up to God(which it is) and work like everything is up to you. We can be in politics and keep our faith. Good thought.
Oh come on Chris. That excuse is getting old. Very old. Donald Trump then is a better alternative? With his dirty business practices, his racist statements, his statements downing women? Give me a break. It may ease your conscience somewhat but man wrong is wrong is wrong is wrong.
Debbie, I am not speaking of Donald Trump. In fact, I am still persuaded that he will not win the GOP nomination. If you are referring to a platform. There is no doubt that what the Republican platform espouses now,..capitalistic foundations, not killing the unborn, etc. Those principles alone are enough to escape from the Democratic platform that is opposed to life, and adding value to products as a basis for trade and equity.
http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/250936-trump-defends-planned-parenthood
Liberal talking points.
There seems to be some idea that once Trump becomes president he’ll become a tough but wise statesman rather than the infantile clown and bully he is now. Really? Have we ever seen that? The candidate and the president are the same person. Can you envision it? Rude remarks about Angela Merkel’s looks? Twitter tirades against Justin Trudeau? Claims that “failing England” hasn’t been treating him fairly? Can you imagine what someone as thin-skinned and vindictive as Trump would do if given real power?
It appears Trump has backed out of the Fox debate because Megyn Kelly isn’t nice to him.
Him backing out of the debate is his biggest gamble yet IMO. My gut tells me it’s a mistake. However, he’s played the media like a Stradivarius so far, so we shall see. If he does an event on CNN and it out draws the debate ratings wise, he wins. But it’s a gamble. It also has accomplished exactly what he has orchestrated throughout this campaign, he is all people are talking about. Going to be an interesting few days. Still wouldn’t surprise me if some deal is worked out for him to be there, as FOX knows the ratings for this will be higher than any other debate.
Jeff, Art of the Deal, when you are winning, you blow up the deal to get better advantage. I think most of us who have watched the other debates know what Trump is about whether you agree with him or not. The other candidates on the stage are basking and getting attention from the aura of Trump. The best Trump can do is to stay even or gain little in a this debate. Like you said it is a gamble, it is unconventional, it is bold and only Trump would do it. Romney should have blasted CNN and Candy Crowley for the bias job she did on that debate but he did not and looked weak. The Republicans last time and this time have had far too many debates as it only hurts in the general, 3 or 4 is enough. If people cannot garner the facts, the manner of a person and the issues in 3 or 4 debates and all the other media what can you say. The press is looking to goad the Republicans into attacking each other in a harmful way for the general election. I will vote for Baptist Pastor , former State Convention President Huckabee if he is still on ballot in Florida as he is a qualified leader whose faith and character are evident to me, he is my emotional and hopeful candidate. However if he does not make it to Florida I will go with Trump. No matter who the Republican candidate is I will vote for them over the Democrat. Still cannot understand the conservative Christian evangelicals in Iowa. They do not support Huckabee when all I hear on TV they vote their faith. I like how Rubio uses the phrases and tones of a born again Christian while openly and correctly maintains his Catholic doctrine belief, it is good retail politics and I mean that is a good way. Rick Santorum a good strong open Catholic won Iowa like Huckabee. My wandering point is Iowa is no bell weather of anything except to give the press news fodder. After South Carolina the real race begins. Again, love him or hate him who is setting the agenda? Oh by the way , George Pataki endorsed Rubio that will counter balance the Lindsley Graham endorsement of Bush who has spent unbelievable millions so far, he cannot even buy the election.
If all the Christians who have determined Huckabee can’t win would vote for him, he would win
I agree that is why I am so confused about the Iowa vote. I live in Florida if Huckabee is on ballot he has my vote, even if it is symbolic I will feel good. I hope if he does not make it Huckabee goes back to Fox, I thought his program was a public service. He is a good, faithful and honest person. He had an interview with Todd Starnes recently where he wondered why R. Moore had 2 Catholics at event but not him. Good question.
“in response to Debbie Kaufman:
“if Trump continues down the Reagan type path” To put Trump and Reagan in the same sentence is ludicrous.
Chris: I also was not disagreeing but asking a legitimate question. What is termed political correctness is simply the Golden rule. Why is the term political correctness always used”
Debbie:
Now you should know that it is not politically correct to refer to political correctness itself as the Golden Rule because that would imply that it came from the Bible.
I’m not sure why Christians would vote for Trump, but I do know that “not being politically correct” and “telling it how it is” does NOT qualify someone for President or make someone a decent human being.
Texas Governor Rick Perry endorses Ted Cruz.
Jerry Falwell, Jr. endorses Donald Trump.
Interesting.
David R. Brumbelow
Kinda would think it would be the other way around, though I have no doubt that Falwell Sr would endorse Trump
Tyler,
I am not so sure Dr. Jerry Falwell would support Trump. For sure, the sons are not the father in that tribe.
Hmmmm You might be right! There does seem to be a difference between the Jr. and Sr. so I retract my comment
I could not agree more with you on this CB. I always feared and actually became convinced that after Falwell Sr. died the university would end up going the way of many other Christian liberal arts colleges and become unorthodox and liberal.
I have to say that I am sorry I was right about that – I will say it is happening faster than I expected.
I am bothered a great deal by Jr’s endorsement of Trump but I am way, way, way more bothered in his comments while introducing him in convocation. He affirmed Trumps “faith” simply on the basis of his “generosity with his wealth” and went on to say this is living out the great commandment.
I have tried to communicate to him (to no avail) that the great commandment is to “love the Lord your God with all…..” – I am sure he was speaking of Trumps alleged living up to the second commandment to “love your neighbor as yourself”. Despite that fact that it is patently and completely obvious that there is no one or no thing that the Donald loves more than himself – clearly his life does not advance a notion of loving the Lord with all his mind, soul and strength.
One has neared heretical doctrinal waters in advancing that one is “exemplifying what Jesus meant by the great commandment and the Christian Life” and then share a works based justification for such a statement.
Jr. has yet to clarify those remarks instead he retweets and Facebooks all the favorable Falwell and Trump blogs and comment streams he can find…
Tarheel,
Even though I’m sick today and have this horrible cold. I needed that laugh. You truly are a funny guy. Thank you.
I have to agree with CB. I’m not convinced that the father of the Moral Majority would endorse the most immoral candidate in the race.
I do not believe that old Jerry would have endorsed Trump. He had a moral and spiritual anchor that young Jerry just doesn’t have.
Old Jerry would have invited Trump to speak, but he would have preached the gospel to him, not declared him a Christian.
It’s all speculation, but that’s what I think.
That’s one word. Sad (at least the latter) is more like it.
There is no way I could ever vote for Huckabee. He had a program on Fox News. I rest my case!
I can see why you wouldn’t want to support Huckabee. He’s a Christian, a conservative, and speaks clearly on issues. Who would want that?
Plus, he is against abortion, and your party supports abortion. We can’t have a President who opposes abortion, right, Jess?
He does not support and promote homosexuality and all forms of perversion like your Democrats do.
He believes in American capitalism and Democracy, contrary to your Democrats.
There are a few things I disagree with Huck about. But I certainly understand why you don’t support him.
Huckabee would be a better president than anything the Dems have to offer.
John Wylie…no doubt about it!
Well fellows,
I like Huckabee. I like him a lot. . . . . but in all honesty, An Amazon River Cannibal would make a better POTUS than “anything the Dems have to offer.”
I agree with you that the Republican candidates, even guys like Rand Paul, etc, are better than anything the Democrats are offering.
I cannot agree that Donald Trump is better. I do not think that in terms of what is good for this nation, he would be an improvement in any way.
Dave Miller, I can respect that. Don’t get me wrong, I am no fan of Trump. But, I’m an even avid hater of the Democratic party. Hillary Clinton to me is an even bigger joke than Donald Trump.
For the first time in the history of our nation, our religious freedom as guaranteed by the Constitution is in jeopardy. We desperately need a godly President. Mike Huckabee is my first choice. I don’t have any problem with Cruz but, I believe that experience as a Governor is preferable to experience as a Senator in terms of evaluating a candidate for POTUS.
Dave,
All those evil sins you mentioned, the Republican Justices gave us. End of story!
I’ve caught Huck in too many lies. He would pounce on Obama saying a particular policy wouldn’t work. I watched the policy play out, and it worked. There are many other issues that happened the same way. They all worked. Our nation is in better shape than it has been in decades. You and your conservative friends cannot deny the facts. Religion binds (imprisons), but grace sets free.
Dave, you and your religious friends are trying to place us back during the times of the Salem witch trials, which will make us no different than the Islamic bunch.
I believe in Grace, and the preaching of Jesus the Christ, the one who sets us free from our sins, which is something the law cannot do. If we want to change our country it must be done through one soul at a time.
The time you have wasted behind your desk, out promoting the Republican party, and needless meetings you attend, I fear many souls have escaped you. Righteousness cannot be legislated, it (has) to be done through one soul at a time in the name of Jesus.
Dave, I’m convinced you are wrong in your efforts, I feel your priorities are not in order. I also believe that one day you will see the truth, as we all will.
“Dave, you and your religious friends are trying to place us back during the times of the Salem witch trials, which will make us no different than the Islamic bunch.”
Come on man….the Salem Witch Trials? Really? This was an overly emotional and completely unnecessary response.
Tyler,
If what I said seemed emotional, I’m sorry. I was not emotional when I posted it. I do believe my response was necessary because there is a huge difference between religion and Christianity.
Actually, James does not make the distinction you made,
“RELIGION that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.:
Tyler,
If we wanted to keep ourselves unspotted from the world, we wouldn’t be messing with politics.
How about let’s Scrub this conversation?
There is one big difference I see between Trump and all the other candidates on both sides. Yes, they all have big egos, but Trump wins there. Yes, they sometimes play fast and loose with the truth, but Trump is an order of magnitude higher on that scale. But even though I would not vote for the Democrats, and some of the Republicans, I think all the rest do, in their own sometimes twisted way, want the best for America. I don’t think that about Trump. If in the process of showing the world how great he is, he incidentally improves America, he won’t mind. But if he had to bring America to its knees to show the world how great he is, he would do that too.
We have had several posts on Voices about idolatry. I think the biggest threat to Christianity is an organized religion inundated with politics. I wish some of you guys can see this horrible idol. This is one of the causes many of our young people are turning away from organized religion. May God help us see the truth before it’s too late. We are becoming no different than the Pharisees that Jesus rebuked.
I fear we are no longer a New Testament Church.