The Pastor’s Conference is the largest and easiest target around. Make all SBCers happy? Sort of like making all of your church members happy. Not a snowflake’s chance in Gehenna of that.
Back when Adrian Rogers would always close the Pastor’s Conference it was a thrilling event indeed. Not so much now. Dave Miller and his gang had the last, best PC. It was innovative, focused on the ordinary SBC pastor rather than celebrities, an authentic grassroots enterprise. It was that PC, one should remember, that actually took money and gave it to a number of pastors who couldn’t afford to attend the convention. Contrast that to whatever the megacelebs will be paid, honorarium plus expenses, for coming to Orlando. This is routine and typical. I know how the system works.
But I understand that the PC is partly a platform for introducing (uh, promoting?) personalities for elective SBC offices and those who like to work behind the scenes to give “turns” to up and coming SBC personalities would be loath to see the demise of the PC. It’s also a pretty good time to merchandise stuff.
I skipped about a quarter century’s PCs until Dave Miller’s in 2017. Don’t know that I missed anything. (And it still rankles me that the PC takes sponsorship money from the shoebox ministry so they can promote their competitive alternative to Lottie Moon, and in our own venue. Disgraceful.)
If the pastors want to have a pastor’s conference in conjunction with the SBC Annual Meeting, let them find their own venue and make it a completely separate event.
This year’s PC is officially controversial at this early stage. Too bad. The last thing we need in the SBC is five months of online fulminations. Have you ever seen the announcement of speakers followed so quickly by negative reaction and the PC president having to address the concerns? Well, yes. Last year’s PC had a controversy. Sounds like a pattern. It’s a long time until June. It can’t be good to have this much rancor about it in February.
[I am not opposed to the speaker who seems to be the focus of the controversy. I know nothing of her. It’s Al Mohler who says that his personal opinion is that “pastor” is both office and function, function and office. Many agree with him on this and I’d guess that if he speaks to the PC matter we would be in for some greater difficulty. My view is that the BFM “office of pastor” is senior pastor, not all of the sub-pastors and staff. Many of us disagree with one another here on that. Is this cause for not cooperating? Not in my view.]
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Resolutions? I’m told that “the SBC” needs to speak to this or that and, thus, resolutions at the annual meeting are very important. I’m inclined to think that they do more harm than good, witness 2017 and last year. I expect this year to make it a trifecta. Even if we get it right it still a hot mess and we lose.
The system that crams the time for resolutions into a tiny window, late in the convention, then cuts off debate and pass resolutions en masse with little discussion is ridiculuous. This makes us feel like the actual Convention, those assembled thousands of messengers, are merely an inconvenience to the Resolutions Committee appointed by fiat by the SBC President. Seems like the presidents have been very careful in composing this committee. Still, it hasn’t worked out so well. We might declare that a resolution is merely an expression of opinion of the group assembled at that moment but that’s not what the world sees, nor what most Southern Baptists see. Now, we’ve got state conventions passing resolutions against the SBC’s resolutions. What a mess.
Maybe the moderates have this right. They don’t do resolutions at their annual meeting.
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After all these years, and my first convention was 1982, I’m not optimistic about substantial changes being made. We managed to shorten the convention up to a two-day meeting but don’t know if that has helped anything.
And, we were wondering what could possibly bump CRT/I off of the front burner, even for a short time. Looks like we found what could. Sex abuse and CaringWell? A distant memory.
We can do better.
Bad choice of personalities for PC.
Would prefer not to get into a lot of bashing here. Thanks
Anyone interested in Ms. Wong’s confession of faith can see it at https://eastlake.church/staff/hosanna-wong/. Anyone interested in hearing her “sermons” can hear her on YouTube. What she believes and what she does should give us some idea of what we might expect her to say and do at the PC.
To have a speaker at a conference for pastors in the SBC should give consideration at least to the BFM. I’ve attended two PC in my years and the non-SBC speakers were not from churches heterodox to the BFC. To make claim that she will be more of a “special music” guest than an extemporaneous preacher is a dismissive statement and a cover up to distract the fact that she is a “teaching pastor” at her church. This is a passive endorsement and a risky path.
Would you prefer messages similar to that of Brother Sam Cathey back in the ’80’s ?
Like “…jack up hell and put a stump under it”? Maybe they could work one in like that.
Yes. ….. and ‘ split hell wide open’
I was actually thinking of his most famous and arguably most convicting ” The Sin of Laying out of Church” ‘ Whooof …that’ll blow your doors off’ . Bro Sam said he preached it ….what?…..1700 times around the country.
Back in 1999 I had Sam Cathey for a Revival. I didn’t know him personally before that so to say I was a bit in awe and a bit fearful at the same time would be an understatement! We are going to lunch on Saturday and I asked him, “Bro. Sam are you going to preach tomorrow on “Forsaking the Sin of Church?” He said “Well I am going to preach but not what you just said!” He said, “I am going to preach on “The Sin of Forsaking Church!” We both laughed but I wanted to crawl under my seat and hide! He and I became great friends until the end of his life. I miss him!
Very close to “bashing”, my dear brothers.
Resolutions. Are. Useless.
Useless? Perhaps. Unimportant…or unrevealing? No.
Res 9 revealed a lot.
I think if I were to try and gather up all of the sources of disagreement in SBC life, I would say that there seems to be a spirit of trying to get our 45k churches and 16M members of SBC churches to agree on too much and to project that unified image to the world that is believed to be a more positive one.
It’s all well intentioned, but perhaps it’s doomed to cause strife.
It’s one thing when denominational agencies project an image or position on an issue that does not fairly represent the grass roots. Previous examples would be the CLC position on abortion, or the BJCPA on the First Amendment.
We had a period of relative calm when those agencies, their successors, and the seminaries reflected what most Southern Baptists believe. Over 20 years of relative peace.
We are a Convention of churches that have come together to do missions. We all agree on that.
If the Convention focused on that, and our agencies stayed close to that mission – without adding controversial things to it, we’d do fine.
I believe that 2 days for the Convention is right.
We should have opening singing and a time of prayer and all the opening stuff with the host City.
Follow that with presentations from the agencies. Each presentation should have a time for questions that are meaningful. With follow ups allowed.
Then after hearing these reports we should adopt budgets to fund these agencies.
Then after that, motions.
As to Resolutions I don’t like them but there are going to be times when we are going to want to speak to things.
IMO the Res Com should not be crafting its own resolutions to present. Messengers should propose them and the Res Com should help clean them up, but not completely change their meaning. Perhaps if we had a limit or something that might help. Maybe 5 max.
Most of all we would need a new reemphasized understanding and focus among the messengers. We are there for missions.
Then the Convention should close with one message by the Convention President.
How does that sound?
I never thought I would see the day when Southern Baptists would welcome a preacher from a foursquare church to preach at its pastor’s conference. I’ve never had less confidence in the future of our convention than I do now.
This will be one of the final twigs that causes a fracture of the dromedary spine. Individually, some of these recent events would not amount to much. Collectively, they will not be ignored. I was not planning on going to Orlando, but I will now attend and make sure to represent my church in taking a stand against what I believe is antithetical to Baptist beliefs.
I was there in the convention hall when resolution 9 was passed. The resolution should have been tabled period. Instead of leaving the convention unified we left divided. I plan on being in Orlando and hope this year we can leave united.
I’ve been a preacher all these years – and just found out I’m really a “spoken word artist.”
David R. Brumbelow
I don’t know anything about this woman who will speak artistic words. I wonder, though, why the planners would invite trouble and provoke controversy. Aren’t there enough qualified preachers in the SBC?
Drip drip eventually the bucket gets full and the split happens.
I am not a conspiracist, but there certainly seems to be an agenda that is being pushed from top-down.
Looks like she is no longer welcome.
Ooh, seems I heard wrong. =o)
I know the pastors conference is supposed to be a time for preaching. But how bad would it be to have a discussion of issues that the senior pastors would do well to be made aware? For instance, could a woman WMU lead or children’s ministry lead share their heart for ministry at a pastors conference? Could a youth pastor share theirs? Or do we really need nine more sermons on 2 Timothy 4:2?
Don’t have much on the line here because I don’t go to the conventions and I’m not a pastor, but Matt makes some sense here. Why not have a real conference, where real pastors talk about real pastor-ey stuff? Nothing wrong with sermons, but most of us here have heard thousands of sermons over our lifetime. Do you really need a few more?
I’m sure someone, somewhere has worked out a theologically correct argument citing the BFM2000 regarding why Beth Moore would not be welcomed to speak to a room full of SBC pastors because she is usurping the role of men according to strict and narrow Biblical interpretation, but “spoken word artist” Hannah Wong is welcome and would not somehow authoritatively be preaching to men.
I see two speakers on the list whose preaching that I’ve heard and books I’ve read would not pass a test of consistency with the BFM2000.
Personally, I don’t have a problem with a gathering that invites preachers of different perspectives, and people of different perspectives, to come together and exchange ideas. I think it is long past time Southern Baptists, at least the denominational apparatus, acknowledged that they do not have a corner on the theology or doctrinal market and that they are not the denomination by which the preaching of all truth is measured. It might do some real good if some Holy Spirit fire fell while they’re listening to Cymbala. But that’s not ever been the perspective of the SBC since about 1989, when conservatives gained control of the last trustee board they didn’t control.
It was worse in the old days.
“Baptist” pedigree was essential.
Since the CR, the Convention has heard from more folks outside the SBC family. Many have been good.
During the CR, it was great to hear Criswell, Rogers and others get everyone excited about making sure the seminaries, written materials etc. were sound.
I also liked Dave Miller’s line up.
I don’t think we should fear having non-Baptists speak. But because so many outspoken people have lost trust, it seems that the non-Baptist speakers are being seen as having been selected to send a signal, to weaken standards etc.
That’s the real issue here. A loss of trust. It is affecting how people are viewing the seminaries, agencies, and even the speakers list at the Pastors Conference.
If trust were not an issue, we could have an interesting speaker from outside the Baptist family. Few would have an issue with people like R.C. Sproul (RIP) or John MacArthur – on doctrinal grounds.
But if you feature speakers or “performers” that are women, pro CRT/I etc., it is going to be seen has having an agenda.
That’s just where we are.
The problem is that the SBC leadership has used the pastor’s conference to send signals, make recommendations and lay out personal agendas so much that it’s become the expectation.
Thanks for your thoughts on this William. I have not commented in quite a while, but I wanted to share a few things about this latest controversy. After a five-year hiatus from attending the SBC and Pastor’s Conference, I will be heading to Orlando this year. I have, for the most part, avoided SBC politics over the last few years. It becomes too distracting and unproductive for the most part.
I have never heard of some of the speakers/musicians that are scheduled to be part of this year’s Pastor’s Conference. Without wading into the debate over women preaching/teaching in a Sunday morning worship service, I don’t have an issue with hearing from women during a conference. In fact, one of the best sermons that I have ever heard preached was by Anne Graham-Lotz at an Evangelism Conference in New Mexico several years ago. Never heard a complaint from anyone about that sermon.
I don’t know much about Hosanna Wong or her ministry. I don’t question the motives of Dr. Uth and the other Pastor’s Conference leaders who invited her because they believed that attendees would be blessed by her ministry. However, her invitation (now rescinded), along with the invitation of a few other speakers, once again highlights a rather large disconnect between different subcultures within the greater SBC family. I don’t think it is as simple as large/mega-church vs. smaller church, but rather competing ministry philosophies that are probably irreconcilable. Doesn’t mean that one way of doing church is better than the other. If Biblical theology drives methodology, then, at the end of the day, we have to be charitable to sister churches within the SBC who may not do church the way we would do church. However, we should be able to share our concerns in a loving way, but that doesn’t mean that we should impugn the motives of those we don’t even know. I will gladly hear from the speakers/musicians at this year’s Pastor’s Conference. I believe that God can use anyone, even Pastors I may not desire to hear from on a weekly basis, to inform, edify, and bless.
Thank you Brother. Women are spiritually worth listening to! God forbid they are not considered worthy of many brethren’s critical Hearing theories. Again I say what would the non women speaking SBC sect do with Sister Lottie Moon if she came back for a SBC convention visit. Let us all be diligent in doing good according to our holy giftedness. God bless those who have ears and the courage to listen to our godly ladies.
I don’t know you Scott, but the spirit of your post is music to my ears. More of this spirit would so us all a wealth of good. In a world of some 45,000 SBC churches, there is never going to be a complete consensus this side of the New Jerusalem.
Thanks, Jimmy and Mitchel. I have been out of circulation for the last few years (self-imposed when I was serving at a different church), but I will probably stop by Voices from time-to-time. Might even contribute an article if Dave Miller and company will still allow it 🙂 If anything, the last three years of a tough ministry assignment before moving back to NM has taught me to be more charitable and grace-filled than ever before. Life is too short and souls too precious to be fighting over everything. That doesn’t mean we can’t have differing views within the SBC family, but we should do so as we exhibit the fruit of the spirit. And, love, kindness, and gentleness, to name just three in that list, are not optional for the Christian, especially for those of us called by God to serve as Pastors/Ministers in the local church.
So it’s relatively new to me, but between all the fighting over whether women could preach at all, or on Sunday mornings, I didn’t realize that some southern Baptists pastors believe women could be pastor (so long as not senior pastor). Am I understanding this correctly? I thought they mostly all went CBF?
When I first started as a Pastor (circa 2005), I was token SBC. From Virginia, I was often at odds with the BGAV and the state newspaper at the time (The Religious Herald) over what I thought was a grave theological shift from moderate to liberal (I am conservative, the BGAV is largely moderate, the leadership continues to follow the path of the CBF).
Since 2016 (the last SBC Meeting or PC I personally attended), I have grown more and more disillusioned with SBC life. This past year’s responses to issues such as the second coming of the complementarian/egalitarian debate, the fallout over Paige Patterson, the fallout over the sex abuse scandals, and attacks against J.D. Greear have caused me to not only lose interest in the SBC at large, but also consider looking for the exit door!
The personal attacks on Beth Moore alone have been enough to make me weep for the soul of the SBC. No matter your position (I am a strong complementarian), to see men of God poke fun and ridicule a person at a conference is shameful.
Hosanna Wong (what a name), if invited to the Pastors Conference, should have from the outset been identified as a musical or dramatic guest. After all, I see spoken word arrangements as a form of dramatic arts, not music. However, this is not the case. Even now, after SBC Pastors Conference President David Uth clarified her role, the PC Website still lists her as a special guest. What is of real concern is how other news outlets are identifying Wong as a teaching pastor, not a spoken word artist.
I know nothing of Ms. Wong. I know nothing of her reputation as a speaker or performer. However, I know as leadership in the body of Christ, we must be above reproach. Whoever thought it a good idea to invite a woman who identifies as a teaching pastor to the SBC PC wasn’t clearly thinking.
And now the pettiness and ugliness are coming out again. I’m starting my 6th year as Pastor of my current church. Great group of Christians…of Baptists! However, due to ongoing issues of health in our extended family, my wife and I are wrestling with looking for a position closer to home. As we consider, something new is happening for the first time in my life…the end goal doesn’t have to be SBC. If I found a Bible-believing, theologically conservative, nondenominational body of believers, I would prayerfully consider the opportunity to serve…and that has everything to do with the current infighting within SBC culture right now!