This was a tweet that I read from Jared Wilson… I’m not sure what I think about it.
“Vision is overrated”
From what I have seen, many in the Reformed camp tend to shy away from words and topics such as “vision,” while other camps-such as Andy Stanley, Craig Gross, etc. spend a little(maybe a lot) too much time on “vision.”
In my mind when the Bible talks about leadership, which is a lot, “vision” is included. Vision is in fact part of leadership and it isn’t something we can ignore, at least if we are to be good leaders.
To have a productive conversation about this I would like to get a working definition from you all… Hopefully this will be the first of several posts on “vision” and leadership.
So to start, how would you all define “vision” in the biblical leadership sense?
Vision is first and foremost future. In a way vision is our present perception of a desired future reality. I would argue that vision is overrated in the sense that in a lot of places anything can pass a vision. The problem is not that we don’t have vision the problem is that a lot of what passes as vision is not inline with God’s vision. I personally have seen a lot of arrogant empire-building in the name of vision. We need vision, and indeed we are given one, it is called eschatology. My question is whether or not your… Read more »
“In a way vision is our present perception of a desired future reality.”
What is the difference between vision and ambition?
The difference between vision and ambition would be origin. Empire-building would be an example of ambition trying to pass as vision.
.-= Keith Walters´s last blog ..Convergence =-.
Are both of you assuming that “ambition” is in itself a dirty word?
.-= Josh C´s last blog ..Inerrancy Should Lead to Real Conversation with God… =-.
Not at all… There is godly ambition and worldly/selfish ambition.
What I see in scripture that it is not a man’s vision, but his obedience that is the key to leadership and success in scripture.
.-= Dave Miller´s last blog ..Significant Servant, October 4, 2009 Essential Reproducble Quality 1 =-.
I agree that obedience is the key to leadership. The scripture teaches us to walk in the spirit. It is up to the leadership to emulate this. There must be a definite balance between walking in the spirit and scripture. I say balance, not because the Spirit would ever lead us contrary to His word, but because of two extremes. (We can address them later if necessary.)
The leadership of the church must know what direction the Holy Spirit is leading the flock. Without a vision, the people perish.
I think part of the pushback against the hyper-popularity of “Vision-casting” might often come back to the de-facto “vision-casting” sermon many have heard from the pulpit where the preacher spends about 30 seconds quoting Proverbs 29:18 and then 45 minutes outlining all the things he would like to see happen program-wise. A problem with this is that “vision” in Proverbs 29:18 doesn’t refer to individual dreams, but to divine revelation. A word study of the Hebrew behind “vision” will show this, as well as the parallelism of the verse itself where “vision” matches “Torah.” I guess the difficulty in defining… Read more »
Your interpretation of Pr 29:18 is spot on.
.-= Dave Miller´s last blog ..Significant Servant, October 4, 2009 Essential Reproducble Quality 1 =-.
matt,
you said, “In my mind when the Bible talks about leadership, which is a lot, ‘vision’ is included.”
any examples? i suspect the bible talks about following more than leading, and about being faithful to the apostles’ gospel and witness more than looking ahead and planning. so, i’m curious what passages you have in mind.
good discussion topic!
.-= mike´s last blog ..2nd century auditorium of hadrian found in rome =-.
mike,
I am mainly talking about the passages such as Romans 12 and the other passages that mention leadership as a spiritual gift. To me, “vision” is automatically included under the umbrella of leadership. So when I see the Bible tell those who have the gift of leadership to lead with all zeal, I suspect that includes leading with vision.
For example- John Piper is the “Pastor of Preaching and Vision” according to his churches website.
I’m glad you brought up John Piper, Matt. His understanding of leadership, as you indicated, includes constant strategizing (his word for “leading with vision”). Go to the Desiring God website and search for “strategize” or “strategizing” and read some of Piper’s statements. He’s dead serious about creatively planning, brainstorming, strategizing, establishing specific, concrete ways for the church to reach people, encourage each other, care for the poor, etc. As an example, in one sermon he said: “I and the other elders of Bethlehem will give an account for how we shepherded this flock, and how we equipped you for the… Read more »
Just a couple of quick thoughts as I glance through this: I don’t know about the intended Biblical meaning of the term translated “vision”, but to argue semantically for a distinction between ambition and vision is a bit unnecessary. There is perhaps a connotative distinction. One possible meaning of vision has been touched on and that is with regard to being able to set and communicate meaningful and motivating goals, spiritual or tangible, for a corporate entity. This is indeed a necessary leadership quality. It’s not necessarily a Christian-only leadership quality. There is one kind of vision that is Christian-only.… Read more »
My conversion was the result of a vision of Christ standing at a door, knocking. At the time I was a full-fledged, practicing atheist, making converts to atheism. I attended a Youth for Christ meeting on 12-7-57. While there I thought I would like to go forward. then I thought, “Why would I want to do this? I don’t believe any of it is true.” At that moment I saw Jesus (a person standing aboutt 12-15 feet in front of me, wearing blue and red robes, facing me, with his hand raised like He was knocking at a door. Then… Read more »
Vision is paying attention around you, your chuch, its congregation, and to the community around you. I grieve everytime that my former church chose to pretty much abandon it’s young married and children’s programs since many of its founding members felt that their church should always be a church caring for its senior adults. While there’s nothing wrong with that, a group that was paying attention to the trends and tides of their community broke off and joined up with a local church which was already preparing for the anticipated hundreds of young families to move in the area. Now,… Read more »
“Vision is overrated!”
so says the man who lacks vision.
.-= Joe Miller´s last blog ..Fill In the Blanks Bible ©? Exodus =-.
That depends, cousin Joe, on whether you define “vision” correctly. The word in Proverbs 29:18 means “revelation from God.” If you define vision as the “the revelation of God to man” then I am with you 100%. We need vision.
But, if my vision we mean human ideas and wisdom, man’s inadequate understanding of the future, then I can’t go there.
.-= Dave Miller´s last blog ..Significant Servant, October 4, 2009 Essential Reproducble Quality 1 =-.
Joe,
I think I might actually agree with you… As long as, like Dave said, you define vision correctly.
I had a friend who saw Wilson’s quote and said, “Usually, people who say stuff like that have never led anything with success.”
I agree.
uh, i don’t really think a zinger like this proves anything
.-= rmichaelfox@sbcglobal.net´s last blog ..scholarship as worship =-.
ok matt, you said, “To me, ‘vision’ is automatically included under the umbrella of leadership.” that’s a bit subjective; for me, “vision” is not automatically included. so either we plunge into relativity or try to present real evidence. leadership is a gift, yes, i can agree. i think the best place to look at the nature of leadership is pastoral corpus, i.e. 1 & 2 timothy and titus, since A) the recipients are not apostles, B) all three letters are written to leaders about leadership, and C) they’re quite churchy, despite being called “pastorals.” it seems clear to me that… Read more »
Possible, but I think its naive to not think vision is a part of leadership.
I think Piper, who is the Pastor of Preaching and Vision, is a great example in showing the role and importance of vision in pastoral leadership.
.-= Matt Svoboda´s last blog ..Keller: “Preachers-only aren’t good preachers” =-.
okay matt, i’ve asked you to use bible, and AGAIN you turn to piper . . . just go ahead and canonize him lolz. baptists and our gurus – we complain about catholics and human authority but we’re not that much different, practically speaking.
.-= mike´s last blog ..scholarship as worship =-.
mike,
The short reply was due to me watching the miserable Husker game…
The passages I use are the passages that talk about leadership-because leadership includes vision.
Also, as Josh pointed out there are examples throughout the New Testament- “we want to be a church that remembers the poor.” Throughout Acts and in the epistles we see examples of Paul and others “casting vision” on ministry. “Be a church that remembers the poor.”
I mentioned Piper because he is the best example of a pastor that practices the importance of leading his elders and church with vision.
again, i’ve asked you to demonstrate that the bible talks about leaders casting vision, and your answer is that it’s implied. how am i supposed to converse with that?
.-= mike´s last blog ..scholarship as worship =-.
“i think there’s a place for discernment and, yes, some vision in ministry, but aren’t you tired of pastors “casting vision” and acting like they are more in tune with God’s will than anyone else in the congregation? i am.” First, I’ll say yes, I am tired of that somewhat… Second, it is part of the pastors role to LEAD the church… Which includes leading the church into the future. I would say a lot of pastors misuse vision. I also think a lot of pastors, especially in my camp(Reformed), throw out vision as if it has no use or… Read more »
Vision cannot be defined as- “Seeing God and being obedient.” That is a cop out definition. It is way to general and doesn’t offer any answers. Its the same as saying “Ambition is- desiring God and being obedient.” Its so general it doesnt mean anything. You could use that definition with everything.
“i think there’s a place for discernment and, yes, some vision in ministry, but aren’t you tired of pastors “casting vision” and acting like they are more in tune with God’s will than anyone else in the congregation? i am.” – Dude, isn’t it his job to be thinking more about leading the congregation toward a Biblical future than anyone else in the congregation??? Isn’t this exactly what God has called the guy to do? All “vision” is, is a preferred future. You can’t lead without vision for the future or you’re not leading anyone (because the very word “leadership”… Read more »
alright josh, remember the original post. matt s. says that when THE BIBLE talks about leadership IT IS implies casting vision. vision is great, okay, there! what i’m trying to get across is this: don’t pretend like THE BIBLE is concerned with vision casting for the future – biblical leadership is about keeping the church faithful to the traditions received from the apostles, or as 1 tim puts it, keeping the faith (pistis), i.e. what we’ve been entrusted with. my concern is that we might create our own definition of leadership and then eisegete it into the bible. is that… Read more »
mike,
As Josh pointed out-
“You can’t lead without vision for the future or you’re not leading anyone (because the very word “leadership” implies you know where you’re going)”
To say vision isnt implied/a part of biblical leadership undermines what leadership is… You cant have leadership of any kind without vision, including biblical leadership.
still waiting on those bible references about vision
.-= mike´s last blog ..scholarship as worship =-.
and i forgot to mention this. should a church really try to picture where vision can lead them and then let those future possibilities motivate them? or should a church be faithful to the Word and keep pressing on even if they never reach the (pastor’s) vision?
.-= mike´s last blog ..scholarship as worship =-.
I’m thinking when we say vision we don’t mean the same thing… There isn’t anywhere specifically in the Bible that talks about leaders “casting vision” but we see examples of it- when the elders tell Paul and Barnabas to “remember the poor” is one example. Vision isn’t about a pastor saying- “In 5 years we should have these specific ministries started, have more Sunday School space and I would really like to be at 500 people by then.” Vision is about the pastor leading his church in the direction that Scripture gives- remembering the poor, planting churches, partaking in missions… Read more »
and i would simply say that remembering the poor is a huge old testament concept, especially in the torah and in many of the prophets. jesus taught about giving to the poor too. it’s not “vision” for the future as much as it is adherence to the faith.
and as far as vision meaning “leading the church in the direction that Scripture gives,” i think you’re using “vision” when you really mean faithfulness or adherence.
.-= mike´s last blog ..scholarship as worship =-.
To be sure, the pastor (or primary preacher depending on your church’s polity) channels the vision of the congregation into scriptural challenges to grow in faith and ministry as the Body of Christ. He need not be the one to whom the vision originates, but prayerfully pays attention to what God is doing in the congregation. There may be members of the congregation who have a vision for a particular ministry or another. There may be obvious spiritual needs in the community that must be addressed, and the ministerial direction of the church guided, through the edifying and unifying preaching… Read more »
Again, when leadership is used in a general sense in the Bible it is including everything that falls under the category of leadership, which includes vision.
Romans 12:8 is a good example.
I am really baffled by the people that don’t think vision is a part of leadership. You cant say that it is a part of leadership and then deny that the Bible includes vision when it talks about leadership.
My question:
What exactly does leadership include?
for now i’ll simply say that you’re finally asking the right question 😉
though i still hesitate to take a concept to the bible and try to build it up systematically; but that’s just the biblical studies part of me which would rather start with books of the bible and construct biblical theology rather than do systematic theology
.-= mike´s last blog ..scholarship as worship =-.
I think a TON of this conversation can be cleared up by two things: 1) Understanding that all we mean when we say the [cliche and overused] “vision”, we just mean “what we think the future should look like”. Nothing more or less. When you walk into a church that’s in disarray and want to see elders established, membership covenants implemented, faithful preaching happen, and discipleship take place that is a vision for the future of that church. 2) Understanding that a pastor’s vision is TOTALLY shaped by Scripture. Otherwise, yes, vision is overrated and counterproductive. All we’re talking about… Read more »
I echo everything Josh just said. 🙂
and i would simply say that the great danger here is that we’re teaching churches to be faithful to God because of the good things it can purchase for us. this is truly an american problem. christians in many other countries are struggling with persecution and inhumane treatment. they are being faithful to God and His word whether or not they have a happy “vision” that everything is going to turn out blessed.
.-= mike´s last blog ..scholarship as worship =-.
Vision isnt about things turning out “blessed.” Im not sure what we have said to give that impression. It is a preferred future- and with a good pastor that future is a more and more biblical one. As in over time pastor hopes to make his church one that: remembers the poor, plants churches, send teams overseas, and on and on.
and i would say the things you mention – remembering the poor, planting churches, sending teams overseas, etc – are things laid out clearly in scripture. we shouldn’t have to manufacture some “vision” to do these things. the REASON we do them is important too, and i think we should do these things simply because they’re scriptural tasks for the church, and because they’re things God has commanded us to do. again, you’re saying we need leaders need visions of these things and i’m saying churches should bypass vision here and simply obey these things out of faithfulness and adherence.… Read more »
The most important part of vision is purely setting those things in Scripture in the hearts and minds of your congregation in order to become a church that does those things… aka-reach the preferred/biblical future. We are talking about the exact same thing, I’m just calling it vision and you’re not. Its screaming biblical christianity. Have you ever led a church? Is it not more than pointing out verses and saying, “obey?” Of course it is… Yes, people are to obey out of faithfulness, but not everyone in every congregation has even read the verse-“remember the poor” and not every… Read more »
matt, you said, “The most important part of vision is purely setting those things in Scripture in the hearts and minds of your congregation in order to become a church that does those things… aka-reach the preferred/biblical future.” is that “vision?” or is the right word for this “teaching,” or “education,” even “equipping” if you want to sound more biblical? and you asked, “Have you ever led a church?” first of all, that is a logical fallacy since my experience in leadership doesn’t change A) what the bible says, or B) the logic of my position. but since you asked,… Read more »
Is this discussion going anywhere at all? I called attention to a specific type of vision, that of the whole earth being won to Christ in one generation in a Great Awakening. Since we have two in our history both as Americans and as Baptists, we ought to give thought and effort to the possibility of another. A study of the promises in Edwards’ Humble Attempt which inspired and informed the prayers of Carey and others might well prove fruitful and beneficial to us in seeking a viable future for our churches and the masses of the earth. The pastoral… Read more »
i would simply ask, why do we need some sort of vision in order to be faithful christians who do evangelism and missions? are we trying to help churches be faithful by showing them the rewards it will bring? why can’t we be faithful and keep doing evangelism no matter what happens? again, i think our discussion of church and vision has a definite “american” flavor. if we’re going to be faithful, we need to see what the payoff is going to be. that’s why this is important. biblical leadership and christianity is about faithfulness and adherence to what God… Read more »
Mike, What you say is mostly true but it also partially misses a key factor and that is that no church is perfect. Just as individual believers go through sanctification where one sin or another is being mortified, local church bodies have seasons of spiritual growth and ministry. One does not both inhale and exhale at once, but does one at a time, one after the other. Each church as a corporate body must be unified through such changes. That requires what we’ve been calling “vision” here. We can be satisfied in Christ, but we can’t be satisfied to simply… Read more »
like i said above, vision isn’t necessarily a bad thing. but the original post and many of the comments have assumed that “vision” is an important part of biblical leadership. what you said about using vision to motivate a congregation might not be a bad thing (though i think helping them understand that being faithful no matter where the chips fall is better), let’s not eisegete 20th century verbage and concepts into the bible. biblical leadership is about faithfulness and adherence. that’s why pistis and its cognates pop up all over the pastoral epistles. .-= mike´s last blog ..scholarship as… Read more »
So let me get this straight, Mike. You believe either: A. Congregations should already know what it is to be faithful, and that’s the end of it. or B. Congregations only need to be told to be faithful and they will just kind of do what they think needs to be done on their own in that regard. or C. Congregations need to be taught what it is to be faithful, but that the teaching doesn’t require the practice of actually doing any ministry. Because if you need to do ministry corporately, as a congregation, it must: A. Be Biblical,… Read more »
it sounds to me like what you’re describing is education and equipping. teaching people what the Bible says and helping them to live it out in real time is called education, not vision. everyone above, especially matt but i believe also you, has already talked about vision being forward thinking and goal-oriented and stuff like that. for the record, i believe (and practiced to the best of my ability) that leaders in churches should teach the people what the bible says and help them live it out in real time. if you want to call that “vision,” fine, but i… Read more »
No ministry is done by us that doesn’t come without spiritual growth. But you bandy around the words obedience and faithfulness without describing how that happens in a corporate setting. That’s what we all get, but you don’t.
.-= Jim Pemberton´s last blog ..Christian Apologetics – The Presuppositional Nature of Evangelism =-.
i forgot this – paul knew the old testament better than we could even dream of knowing it. the old testament, especially the torah and the prophets, demands that the people of God take care of the poor. in other words, paul’s concern for the poor doesn’t seem like “vision,” but rather obedience and adherence to the faith. if have the opporunity to steal an old lady’s purse, but don’t, is that vision? or obedience?
.-= mike´s last blog ..scholarship as worship =-.
“…paul knew the old testament better than we could even dream of knowing it.” Really? Did God author the OT for only Paul to be able to explain to us? Or did Paul author a considerable portion of the NT without the Holy Spirit? We really can’t dream of knowing it as well as Paul did? As for the OT, what was it that Moses’ father-in-law instructed him to do in the desert? One would call that vision. why didn’t God deliver it to Moses directly? Why didn’t Moses just not judge anyone? This was a matter of growth in… Read more »
uh, dude, paul was at one time a top-ranking pharisee. this means he had basically memorized the old testament. he spent years reciting and rehearsing it to the point where he could reel off section on demand. and i have no idea what point you’re making in asking if the OT is only for paul or if the NT is uninspired. what!?! besides, what i said is that paul’s concern for the poor isn’t vision, but obedience. that’s pretty clear. yet you put these words in my mouth: “There are plenty of examples of vision in the OT and it’s… Read more »
Mike,
I’m not judging your theology or your sense of morality. But I am judging your capacity to read and understand what I’m writing because it’s clear that you’re not doing it very well. I’m not going to restate what I’ve already written. You just need to re-read it until you understand what I’m saying. Otherwise a discussion is impossible.
.-= Jim Pemberton´s last blog ..Christian Apologetics – The Presuppositional Nature of Evangelism =-.
okay sure
.-= mike´s last blog ..scholarship as worship =-.
This discussion would be more helpful, if every one would back off of either/or and try some both/and. Also it might be helpful to have some knowledge of church history, especially Baptist history and how controversies have erupted, flourished, and died out in our past. I attended a group recently who went the faithful route (so to speak) and their reduction in numbers is justified (in their thinking) by the Great Falling Away. It never seems to occur to them that there might be some fallacies in their own thinking and views – though not necessarily in the book they… Read more »
Dr. Willingham,
If you read what I’ve written, you would recognize that I am already on the both/and side. The discussion of “vision” as it is commonly used isn’t even a biblical one per se. Leadership without vision is like music without tonality. It doesn’t happen. Leadership without faithfulness isn’t biblical. It’s actually as simple as that, but apparently it’s not simple enough.
.-= Jim Pemberton´s last blog ..Christian Apologetics – The Presuppositional Nature of Evangelism =-.
Dear Brother Pemberton (hmmm any kin to that one in the War between the States/Civil War?), I was addressing those fellows taking the either/or positions of obedience/vision and bashing one another over the head with the billy club of their own position. They can do that all day (how long has this been going on?) until the cows come home, and they will get exactly no where except to knock each other out so that both will eliminate the other just as effectively as the headbangers (at least the latter had the excuse of being truly out of it in… Read more »
I understand. Thanks! And I like the last two sentences you just used! Do you mind if I “steal” them from you?
General Pemberton is probably a distant kin. Most Pembertons in the US are descendants of Phineas Pemberton and his family brought to the US as Quaker statesmen by William Penn.
.-= Jim Pemberton´s last blog ..Christian Apologetics – The Presuppositional Nature of Evangelism =-.
Vision is insight into implementing biblical values in concrete ways over the long haul. (that’s it … short and sweet)
.-= Bradley´s last blog ..Burj Dubai is Almost Complete =-.
This definition is advantageous because 1) it’s short and easy to understand, but also, more relevant for this post, 2) it helps show why “vision” is not only compatible with biblical principles, but how biblical principles demand vision, for inasmuch as they demand implementation, they demand vision.
.-= Bradley´s last blog ..Burj Dubai is Almost Complete =-.
I think ” vision” is asking yourslef ” what do I do next?” ” How do i find a new way to evangelize?” God does not take the fun out of evangelism. God has given us greative mins to find new wys of spreading the same gospel. That is what “Vision” means to me. If my church was going door to door, I may have a vision of a TV or radio program to take the gospel to more people. Maybe i have a ” vision” to build a bigger building, or add a special section that would serve an… Read more »
Yes. … But if someone said “I have a vision to leave my wife and marry a hooker,” we would say that this is not exactly what we mean by “vision” in the ecclesial context. So, vision can’t just be “what do I do next?” but has to be related to visioning the future according to biblical values. That’s why I say vision is “implementing biblical values in a concrete way over the long haul.” Also … if you had a precise idea about what you wanted to do with your next day (go down to the skateboard park and… Read more »
Or rather, those who have “vision” have an ability to foresee how they will implement biblical values in their own ecclesial context over a relatively long period of time. Vision can change, however, so it’s not permanent. This is because context can change, and vision is implementing biblical values within one’s own ecclesial context.
Bradley
.-= Bradley´s last blog ..When St. Ambrose Rebuked an Emperor =-.
I define the word ‘vision’ as what God calls each of us specifically to do. For example, it is a very general statement to say that pastors and church leaders are called to ‘reach their community’. I consider that our ‘mission’. Our ‘vision’ is how we specifically feel God is calling us to accomplish our mission.
One pastor’s vision may be for their church to reach their community through service. Another pastor’s vision might be for their church to reach their community through media (broadcast sermons, web presence, etc.)
Joseph, Your definition fits with mine perfectly. I think we are thinking the same thing but articulating it differently. I also think that when speaking about vision in the context of ecclesiastical leadership (as in this post), vision can include not just what God calls us individually to do, but can include what a leader senses God specifically calling him to lead his people to do (and thus, also seems to include a corporate element). Therefore, I think your definition could be improved like this: Vision is what God calls a Christian or group of Christians to do specifically. Here… Read more »
Christ had vision – he knew where he wanted to guide the human family in His earthly ministry. He knew the potential that man can rise to and led them there. Without a vision of what fallen mankind can become, there was no leading to get us there. This is speaking of a divine attribute in somewhat of a secular mindset, which can ultimately be defeating (“my thoughts are higher than your thoughts… my ways.. your ways, etc.). That vision, seeing a future state of potential that can be achieved, is core to leadership. Christ saw the sin from the… Read more »
Several months ago I wrote a post, Vision: An Overblown Concept. The link is here — http://chuckwarnockblog.wordpress.com/2007/05/21/vision-an-overblown-concept/
Interesting comments all around. -Chuck