I’ve heard it all my life. “We need to restore America to its former greatness.” “We need to take our nation back to what it once was.” “We need to get back to being the Christian nation we used to be.” I believed it and preached it. But I have come to believe that this is not something we should say. There are Christian brothers and sisters who hear something very different than we do when we talk about “going back” and out of honor to them, we ought to reexamine our thinking and our words.
Before I make you mad….
…I’d like to make these things absolutely clear!
1) I love this nation. I am patriotic to the core. I don’t even mind showing some level of patriotism at church. I have no problem with our church flying the American flag or with honoring our nation in thanksgiving to God as a church. That is not what this is about.
2) I think America is a uniquely great nation. In fact, America has had a unique greatness among the world. Some of you know history better than I do, but what other nation has treated its defeated enemies as we have? You can argue the wisdom and conduct of our wars, but when we defeat a nation, we then rebuild it. Who does that? Japan. Germany. Even Iraq and Afghanistan. They have been defeated by us in battle, but we have then sunk billions into restoring them. Does anyone remember the movie, “The Mouse that Roared”? A tiny European nation decides that the best way to get themselves out of bankruptcy is to declare war on America and lose. There is some historical basis for that, is there not?
3) I believe that our Constitution was genius. Whether America was ever a Christian nation or not, the founding principles of our nation, devised by men who saw themselves as holding a sacred trust from God, was brilliant. We have deviated from the Constitutional principles and have sacrificed some of the freedoms it recognized, and that is unfortunate. If we are going to go back to anything, it ought to be a stricter adherence to the Constitution.
There is nothing left wing or politically disinterested about me. I’m not one of those who believes that America is or has been a force of evil in this world. We have been an imperfect nation that has done as much good as any nation ever has (leaving Israel out for theological and covenant reasons). There has been much that was admirable and worthy of emulation in our nation’s history.
But, that is not the whole story. There is a dark side to American history that we often like to simply ignore. We need to honor that which is and has been great about our nation. But we also need to remember that which has been evil about our history. The idea that America has ever been an earthly utopia does not square with history. And it does not advance the cause of Christ when we ignore the pernicious effects of the sins of our past.
My Point
So, having said all that, here is my point.
We, white Evangelical Christian Americans, ought to stop talking about restoring America to its former greatness, because when we do, we exhibit an inexcusable insensitivity concerning the evil our nation has inflicted on some.
America has perpetrated unspeakable evil on some, seemingly without conscience, and while still describing ourselves as “Christian America”. We treated the Native Americans despicably. We invoked God’s name to justify brutalizing them, calling our nearly genocidal actions a “Manifest Destiny.” Our “great” nation did great evil. The Trail of Tears is an historical fact. And, of course, there is the centuries-long enslavement, oppression and dehumanization of blacks that stains the soul of this nation. During WWII, internment camps housed loyal Americans of Asian descent.
Have you ever stopped to wonder how Blacks or Native Americans feel when we talk about “returning America to its former greatness?”
Simply put, it wasn’t so great for them. I doubt you can find anyone among those ethnicities who long for the 50s!
And it is remarkably insensitive when we speak of days gone by as idyllic, even utopian, when during those times people were behaving as despicably as they did. You won’t hear many blacks longing for the good old days, will you?
Conclusion
When we see our nation embracing immorality and perversion, abandon any sense of responsibility to God in the process, there is a natural tendency for us to want to “go back.” But we cannot pretend that America’s history has been unbroken joy, peace and goodness, or a fitting representation of Christianity. When we talk about restoring what once was, we are being (unintentionally) insensitive to those for whom the past was not so glorious.
Our goal today ought to be to advance the kingdom and to proclaim the Lordship of Christ. We ought to vote biblical values and promote them. But we ought not put on rose-colored glasses and view our national past as some sort of utopian dream to which we must return. There were some great things about our past, but some shameful things as well. We must rebuild what was good, while excising every trace of racism and discrimination from our midst.
But I think, for the sake of our brethren from different ethnicities, and for the sake of our testimony in this world, we ought not talk about restoring America to what it was, as if the pain that perpetrated on Blacks, Native Americans and other ethnic groups was insignificant.
I have a feeling I am going to upset a few of my friends here, but I think we have to analyze our response in this world, and be more careful about our words.
Dave,
Great post!
The good ole days weren’t good for everyone, that’s for sure…
I think believers who are partriotic Americans should emphasize which “principles” we wish to return to (when they coincide with scriptural principles) and at the same time articulate an honest gospel and God centered disgust for some principles that dominated our past.
You’re right…longing for the good ole days of the 1950s is I think, even if unintentional, insensitive and a glossing over our national past sins.
Bravo my friend! I remain genuinely puzzled at why so many long to prop up a temporary kingdom as opposed to proclaiming an eternal one. “Saving America” is not part of the church’s mandate, and the minority groups you reference above would not want the 1950s saved anyway. Thanks for a clear-headed post that points us back toward mission, and ignore the modern day Zealots.
probably people think about ‘the good ‘ole days’ in the way things were in Mayberry NC on the Andy Griffith show, or the classic ‘Leave It To Beaver’ where June Cleaver always vacuumed the house wearing pearls and high heels (this, BTW, is physically impossible to do) . . .
or how it was at Grandma’s house long ago: the food, the warmth, the love, and the family gathered together joyfully . . . long time gone
these are not ‘wrong’ to remember or long for
. . . but then there were those other ‘scenes’ I witnessed in the 60’s . . . lunch counter sit-in demonstrations in Benjamin Franklin’s Five and Dime in Norfolk VA . . . a man spitting on a woman sitting at the counter . . . she remained sitting with dignity in spite of the abuse . . . saying nothing . . .
like a scene from two thousand years ago in a place far away
I don’t miss seeing that, and I wish I could forget the sight of that hatred, but I cannot . . . and maybe I shouldn’t forget it . . . to forget it means that I am not a witness to ‘the old days’, and I am. I was there. I did see it happen. I can tell the searing truth of it to my children, and my children’s children. I am a witness. I am a witness. I am, at the very least, a witness. That is a fact of my life that changed me forever . . .
This is a good post, DAVID.
The way ahead needs Christian leadership that is not afraid of the continuing pain that is born from a past of discrimination, but understands it and embraces it in our citizens who live with it,
instead of pretending that this pain does not still exist, or worse, has no meaning in the life of this country.
Well said Dave.
Dave,
I would like to look deep into the fire and through all the smoke. I have a question for you. I once heard a black man answer a question asked him
by a white man. The white man asked would you allow your children to marry white people? The black man said, I’m very particular who I would want my children to marry. The white man said, I can see that.
Lo, and behold, about a year later I heard a black man ask a white man the same question. The white man said, I’m very particular who I would want my children to marry. The black man said, you are prejudice.
Dave, will it take races marrying one another to prove someone is not prejudice?
Marrying someone from another race is pretty conclusive that you are not prejudiced against that race.
Marrying someone from your own race doesn’t prove anything.
Opposing people marrying outside their race probably proves you are racist.
I agree with Bill.
I agree as well.
Bill Mac,
So, Bill Mac, are you saying that if a white parent prefers their children to marry other white folks, they are prejudice, and if black people prefer their children to marry other black children, they are prejudice?
That would probably mean, 80 to 90 percent of the people in these United States are prejudice.
No Jess. It means ignorant, small minded people like YOU are prejudiced. Love sees no color and fewer and fewer people of any color think like you thankfully.
Some of my closest friends are in mixed race marriages and it makes me furious every time they get a look or a comment from someone who thinks like you do.
This type of bigotry is shrinking thank God. I hope it ends soon.
…exits soapbox…
Ryan Abnerathy,
I never said, not one time, how I felt about mixed marriages,
I only asked a question. You called me small minded, and said people like me, You don’t even know me. You owe me an apology.
Ryan Abnerthy,
On second thought don’t worry about apologizing, because I don’t want one. Instead, I would rather call you an Idiot with not enough sense to get out of the rain. Talking about being small minded, I couldn’t hold you a light. I know I will be put on moderation, but speaking my mind is worth it.
Yes, and where do you statistics come from?
I would be surprised to find a person that is without some prejudice. Doesn’t make it right.
To be attracted to members of our own race is not surprising. To decide for other people what races are acceptable for marriage and which ones aren’t is a problem.
Yes, Jess.
Prejudice is pre-judging people. By definition, saying, “I would not want my child to marry someone from another race” is prejudging them – judging them on the basis of skin color without knowing them.
No matter how common it is, it is racist.
I am indeed prejudiced. I am completely against my kids marrying someone who was not a Christian, a member of the same gender, someone not of legal age to marry, or not a member of the human race. (Otherwise, they are free to marry any ethnicity within the human race.) I offer wisdom to encourage them to have similar ecclesiological commitments, compatible ministerial callings, like-minded family planning expectations, not to be too far apart in age, and to seek pre-marital counseling within the church they will be members of (and to marry there among the people who will initially be holding them accountable). Otherwise, they have my full blessing.
That, however, is a grounded and valid prejudice as opposed to simply being prejudiced based on the person’s ethnicity, the country of birth of their great-great-grandparents, or the color of their hair.
It’s two entirely different forms of prejudicial attitude. The one is based on tangible and Biblical reality. The other is based somewhere entirely different.
And it is valid to discuss the impact of the home-culture of a potential spouse. Not as an automatic disqualifying discussion but as a preparation for what may come.
I just got back from night service. My pastor went over the works of the flesh (sin) list of Galatians 5:19-21. Opposing interracial marriage wasn’t one of them. Now more than ever, we need to go about heeding what the Bible says and stop letting the world define our morality, including the things that we get morally outraged about.
Completely confused here–not that that’s such a rare occurrence. Are you suggesting that bigotry (in this case, opposition to interracial marriage) isn’t sin?
@Mike Bratton:
I am only saying that what we consider to be sin should be defined by the Bible.
Not to press unduly, Job, but you didn’t answer my question, and it would help the conversation if you would.
Again, are you suggesting that bigotry isn’t sin?
why would a person oppose inter-racial marriage in this day and age?
Really? The hatred, rivalry and division that causes people to hate other people on the basis of race would be covered within quite a few of the works of the flesh.
I think that the root of opposing interracial marriage sits pretty squarely in the works of the flesh.
Racial hatred that causes one to oppose interracial marriage and Galatians 5:19-21:
Enmity – wouldn’t racial hatred count as enmity? Check.
Strife – standing in opposition to others on account of their race. Check.
Rivalries, dissensions, divisions. Check
Plus, Paul says “things like these” letting us know that his list is not exhaustive.
Honestly, I cannot believe, Job, that you are defending racial prejudice and division on flimsy grounds like that.
I will not allow SBC Voices to be used for the promulgated of racist viewpoints. Tony can fire me if he likes, but any more racist nonsense, Job, and I’m going to moderate your comments.
Amen Dave. An elementary reading of scripture demonstrates that that to oppose interracial marriage is a sin.
There is only one race-the human race. Humanity. Mankind. Sure we’re distinguished in a sense by culture, region, and languages…but humans are humans and intrinsically of equal creation status in the image of God.
The sooner we all realize and embrace this truth the closer we’ll be to comprehending the kingdom of God – which is made up of mankind from every nation, tribe, and tongue.
As it relates to marriage – Jess,
“male and female He created them….and commanded them to be fruitful and multiply…..For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and cleave unto his wife….”
It does NOT say “(skin tone)male and (skin tone) female he created them….and commanded them be fruitful and multiply (staying within their own skin tone)…for this reason a (skin tone) man shall leave his father and mother and cleave unto his (own skin tone) as his wife.”
Mankind has devised relational barriers that God has not implemented.”
Yep.
Yep. Stop with the take back America stuff and preach Christ. I know folks who skip church around July 4th because they know they will get a heavy dose of tired cliches and not much authentic Biblical preaching.
“Mankind has devised relational barriers that God has not implemented.”
Sorry, don’t understand this statement. Did not God scramble our skin pigment and languages because we were getting too big for our britches? to humble us and show us we are not God?
God implemented the relational barriers and he alone will take them down when he is ready and in a manner of his choosing … “every knee shall bow”
This is my first ever comment Dave, but I truly appreciate your post.
Paul,
I meant that we have devised barriers to dating relationships and marriage tht God did not implement.
When people talk of “marrying your own kind”, “marrying within your color” etc….they are devising barriers that God did not implement.
God instituted marriage as being a male human and female human uniting for life. He’s never instituted any restrictions based in skin tone. For us to do so is sinful, arrogant, and racist.
That’s my point.
First America was founded on Biblical principles but it has never been a Christian Nation. I have never heard anyone say anything like that but what we should focus on is turning America toward God. Whether it is “back” or not is up to the individual.
“America was founded on Biblical principles but it has never been a Christian Nation”
That’s the proper historical view–one which neither of the major loud groups these days wants to embrace. Too many Christians think we can restore the Christocracy (which never was) and too many secularists refuse to admit that much of the good in our founding was based on Scripture–even though many of the men who did the founding were far from full-out Bible Believers.
Well said, both of you (even Doug).
I’m going to take back what I said in that email about laying off bashing the Yankees for a month if you’re mean to me 🙂
Guys, in general I agree. Yet at the risk of nit-picking myself, I think there is one distinction that must be made.
When we speak of “Biblical principles,” I think followers of Jesus must of necessity hold to a definition of that term that, frankly, Thomas Jefferson never could have agreed with.
I would prefer to say that we were founded on theistic principles, some of which can find a correlation in Scripture. The United States, as a Constitutional Republic, was built historically on the back of a long line of great empires. While Dave is correct in pointing out in his post what makes us unique among those empires, I think we have to admit its still just an empire–a temporary kingdom. And, I think our failure to recognize this opens the door to the very kind of narrow nationalism that Dave laments.
America was settled IN PART upon Christian principles. Those principles, however, were not precisely the same for all the “Christian” groups: in Massachusetts, that meant Puritan theology, in New Amsterdam, it meant Dutch Reformed, in Pennsylvania, it meant Quaker, in Maryland and for the Spanish settlements in what is now Florida and Texas, it meant Catholic, and in Virginia, it (somewhat) meant Episcopal, all these in an era when denominational differences were considered much more significant than most consider them today. That is why Baptists were exiled in Massachusetts, whipped in Pennsylvania, and imprisoned in Virginia. In other areas and some of these, the “principles” were more commercial. In the founding of the United States under the Constitution, one could rightly say there was Christian influence, but there was also considerable influence of theistic deism, commercialism, and enlightenment philosophy. The later 1780s and early 1790s were an era of coldness toward “religion” in America. I have been told by scholars whom I think knew what they were talking about, that in 1790, no more than 10% of the US population (based on the 1790 census and church records such as Ashplund’s Record of the Baptist Church in America, 1790) were members of any Christian church.
John
Good words, Dave, and I’d like to put some more words into the conversation, if I might.
I think there’s such a thing as being overly patriotic.
Heaven is my home, not this place.
Last I checked, those of us who are Christians are citizens of God’s Kingdom first, last, and always. I don’t know that we realize how “God and Country” references often come across as “Country and God.” I don’t build my hope on the United States, blessed as I am to be a natural-born citizen of this country. This country can’t, really and truly, save anyone.
The Constitution was not divinely inspired; theists and other non-Christians were easily found among the Founders. Leaning, even a bit, on the frame and foundation of this country means that we are not wholly leaning on Jesus’ name, as the song says.
Yearning for the “good ol’ days” of the U.S.A. can lead us to thoughts and actions that only end up, as Adrian Rogers used to say, trying to make the world a better place from which to go to Hell. We know from God’s Word that we’re on the Titanic, yet too often our efforts are either devoted to patching the hull, rearranging the deck chairs, or wishing we were back in the Southampton port. What we need to be doing, instead, is urging others to the lifeboats.
The ship is sinking, and people need to be saved.
I love my country. The problem is that there is such a media emphasis on bad news twenty-four/seven that we have all become very discouraged. But if ANYONE wants to see our country from a different viewpoint, take a look at our young people in the military, in all the service branches. You can very, very proud of their achievements and their service. They are the best of us. They bring us honor as a people.
Too much emphasis on ‘politics’ and on ‘big money’ and ‘celebrity’ has led to a skewed view of ‘who we are as a people’.
Our nation is resilient and resolved and our people are hopeful and forward-looking. Hope for the future is in our blood. It’s a genuine identifiable American trait.
Nothing and no one can take that away from who we are, unless we permit it.
I agree that the US Constitution was not divinely inspired, but as far as human governments have gone, it is evidence of political genius.
Oh, I’m right there with you, Dave. Prescient, insightful, political genius. I’ve heard it called more, though, in a way that over-inflates the Constitution and devalues the Bible.
Having participated to some degree in the African American movement by graduating from a Black school (Lincoln Univ., Mo.), study Black History in three schools (Lincoln, Morehead in Ky., and Columbia in NYC), plus doing my project for the D. Min. on Christian Love and Race Relations, etc., I feel like I can speak to a limited degree on the issue. It is true that the America we knew and grew up in was not Ideal for everyone. However, that does not negate the fact that the nation had a built in wherewithal to change. Even during the days of slavery, things were never quite what they seemed. Dr. McKissic spoke of the Assemblies of God being the first to ordain and employ Black ministers. That was true to a certain degree, but, actually, the first Black minister that I know of that served a white congregation was in Va. (Petersburg, I think). His freedom was purchased, circa 1790, by a White congregation who called him as pastor, and he served there about 10 years, if memory serves correctly. Quite a surprise to me. I should add that about 5000 Blacks served in the American Revolution, that 60-70,000 Blacks drew Confederate pensions after the war for their service to the Confederacy, something I only found out in the past 10 years. There were Blacks who were indentured servants in Va., who earned their freedon in the required 7 years and who then earned and purchased property, etc. I have a book on the issue in my collection. This was true in other states. And there were Blacks who owned slaves and Blacks who were rich. One in Charleston, SC area was worth about a $500,000 and there was one in Mississippi who owned about 80-90 slaves. This does not mitigate the circumstances of the 3,000,000+ others who suffered under an egregious enslavement where the master could for all practical purposes kill a slave and never be brought to justice, all utterly contrary to the spirit of the founding documents of Independence and the Constitution.
But our problem today is that there are no jobs for poor Blacks, that they are being raised in dysfunctional families, along now with a multitude of families, and we are beginning to get a tremendous amount of Black violence, Black on Black, that is, with a corresponding rise of Black on White violence, too. There are likewise no jobs for the masses, regardless of color. The fact of automation, robotics, and computerization have basically abolished the labor intensive jobs. Even the Food service industry workers will soon find that they are not needed as owners turned to automation, robotics, and computerization in order to deal with the issue of costs. 23 years ago, a Burger King in New York (not sure now what city) employed some 400 people to run a 24/7 operation. The went to automation, hired a Lazer cooker operator from Germany for $90/hr. , his female assistant from Japan for $60/hr., and the rest of the crew of 18 served as clean-up personnel working for very low wages, likely, minimum.
You will likely have noted that the assembly lines for automobiles in Detroit show few workers and a lot flying robotic arms. In the 80s Japan built two automated automobile factories, that required about 70-80 technicians to keep them running, and no workers. Then they closed them down as they put so many people out of work.
Too bad, most preachers don’t read outside the box. They would likely realize that we are close to complete chaos in our nation and economy. If they can automate, computerize, and use robotics to replace all of the workers in any plant, do the same for mowing a yard, basically, they have unemployed over 50-60% or more of the people. And there are those who want to exterminate the “useless eaters” as H.G. Wells called them in his book, The Open Conspiracy. Folks there is perhaps a quarter of a million volumes that have been written in this area. Even participants in the same who think they can no longer be stopped and who are laughing at us.
In addition, our schools are pouring out students who have been basically brainwashed into thinking that the church is anti everything, a waste of time, following a book that is out of date, that real science has proven is baloney, etc. The masses of students plus the people from the Middle East who follow another religion, especially those who follow the Moslem Brotherhood, have in place a plan to take this country. I listened to a report on a book on C-Span this afternoon, The Brotherhood: The next enemy of America. I leave it to you all to find out more. You might look at book/tv.org for more info.
We need prayer like we have never needed it before.
You went to Lincoln and Morehead? The stories you must have to tell … have you considered writing an autobio or something?
Dear Brother: I am more interested in enlisting you in a prayer effort for a Third Great Awakening as I have been praying for such a visitation for (It will be in a few months) 40 years. On Tues. at 7:00 (I think A.M.) a pastor friend of mine named Spurgeon will speak to the ministerial alliance of Cahokia, Ill. on the subject of praying for a Great Awakening. Brethren, we are so close to collapse and chaos that if you fellows don’t wake up and go to praying and getting every one you can to praying, then all of these discussions will be passé in the blood bath that can be unleashed on this nation. I heard of one company backed by China that was selling AK-47s to the street gangs in L.A. I think that was finally stopped, but just think what it would mean if roving gangs armed with that kind of fire power started on a rampage throughout the nation. Gentlemen (and ladies), I call God as witness that if we do not plead the promises for such a visitation, we will not be guiltless before God for the tragedy that shall occur to this nation.
Amen, Dr. W!
Dave,
Like many our people in our churches, Americans have ignored obvious evils for years. I have preached your point – even today – and I honestly believe that for us as Christians it will be the grasping of WHAT we are suppose to be doing that will usher in the next great move of God. America has been broken for a while and is never going to return to anything of the past.
It is up to us to reach people for the Kingdom and living right to all men – nothing else matters!
I remember a time when I was in third grade when I’d walk six blocks without fear.
I remember when I was about 10 years old, and my brother and I would walk 11 or 12 blocks to the Hohman Theater in Hammond .. across the state line from where we lived .. on Saturday to watch the Hopalong Cassidy and Red Ryder and others.
I remember when it was an honorable thing to be drafter and go off to war.
I remember a time when, if I did something bad when I was out playing, the neighbors would do some correction and my mom & dad would do the same for the neighbors’ kids.
I remember all the summer days when I’d play outdoors with all my friends.
I remember months and months when we’d never hear a siren.
I remember when all my friends addressed their elders as Mr., Mrs, or Miss. And said please & thank you frequently.
There may have been a lot of bad things, back then, which I wouldn’t have seen because of where we lived, but there were a lot of great things we’d be well to go back to.
I agree. I fondly remember my small town where it was safe to leave your doors unlocked and your children could play outside all day unattended (i.e. when you weren’t even at home) too. We were more afraid of rattlesnakes, spiders, and raccoons with rabies than child molester kidnappers.
Nevertheless, instead of wanting to go back to that place and time, I am looking forward to new Jerusalem.
Good points….this is wht I meant when I said we need to be specific with regard to what we mean when we harken back to he good old days….there’s a lot that I rightly missed…but there’s a lot that is very god to be things of the past.
Dave’s point is that often people aren’t clear what they mean by restoring our heritage, good old days etc….so many people who hear “us” say we need to reclaim Ametica really are disheartened by the comments because thier minds don’t go to long safe walks and months without sirens….but to a lifetime of discrimination, abuse, fire hydrants, back seats, white sheets and hoods, and much, much worse.
I hear you Bob, and I hate it that those days are gone–mostly because of my own children.
That said, I think Dave’s point in this post is that if you were a black man living in Birmingham at that same time period, you would NOT have been able to walk even 3 blocks in the wrong direction and still be safe.
That wider perspective helps us to understand how our words fall on a world that is now much more diverse.
Dave,
The point of your post overwhelms me. Whenever the mantra goes out to restore our country back to greatness, inevitably in the formal or informal debriefing room or conference following the event, someone will definitely make the point that you make in this post. By then it is to late. The point of your post usually is mentioned after the fact. What a blessing it is–and this is what overwhelms me–for someone to make this point before this warcry or mantra goes out again. Certainly you make a worthy point here and I hope that it is heeded. The fact that this point is made from someone who belongs to the majority community is also significant. You will not know ’til you get to heaven the impact that you are having advancing the Kingdom via hosting & contributing to SBC Voices. “Be not weary in well doing for in due season you will reap if you faint not.”
Thank you, sir.
Very good article, one we should all ponder. One minor correction. During WW 2, loyal Americans of only Japanese descent (not generic Asian descent) were interned. Most of the internee where American citizens, and none of the internees had been disloyal to the USA. I went to high school in Los Angeles in the late 1960s and many of my high school classmates parents had been in the internment clamps. One of my friends from church join the US Army while he was in an internment camp, and was a member of the famous 442 Infantry Regiment made of almost entirely of Japanese-Americans who had been in internment camps. My friend was part of the group of Japanese-Americans who helped to liberate the death camp at Dachau. After the war, the only job my friend could find was as a gardener, as other jobs were closed to Japanese.
It is also important to remember that from 1913 to 1952, it was illegal for
Asians to own property in California.
Thank you for that information.
Multiple of those camps are near to my home in Arkansas, but many people around here file the internment camps under “something that happened back then” and rarely even speak of the issue. When there was a dedication at Rowher last year, many of the younger folks around here had never even heard of the whole issue, much less that Arkansas was a place where the Japanese were imprisoned.
Fear causes people to do things, and irrational fear drives us to do foolish things. We cannot go back and fix those past issues, but we must include making sure we do not do it again in our designs on the future.
I would like for some things to reverse a little in this country.
I would like for Black men, Brown men, Red men, White men, Yellow men, Green men, Blue men, Rainbow men, and all men to do a better job of being men.
Around 4% of adults males live according to a biblical worldview. That percentage was higher in the past. I would like to see that return to the past take place, not only in this country, but in every nation.
CB: I’m curious. What is your definition of Biblical men. And I have a slight problem when speaking of black men or women, lumping them in with the colors blue(which there is no such human) green(see comment on blue) etc. It trivilizes the racial problem of which we still have a problem.
I don’t buy the old men should be men thing. Please tell us what your definition of Biblical men are. I think it’s more a ruse to side step the racial problem which is ongoing even in the SBC. It needs to stop.
http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/mlb-big-league-stew/adam-jones-banana-thrown-way-t-park-024414128.html
Debbie,
Great questions. Well spoken. Seeking common ground rather than battleground many persons of color choose simply not to challenge the matter that you’ve raised with CB here. In order for racial progress & unity to move forward, both sides are going to have to be less sensitive. And in the name of peace you have to forego, some skirmishes for the greater good. I must admit when I read CB’s comments, the questions that you raised crossed my mind, but knowing CB’s heart, I knew there was no intended harm perpetrated by him. Voices is beginning to pick up more minority readers & commenters. For those who don’t know CB as well as I do, his comment does lend itself to misinterpretation. Therefore, I believe your question is valid. But, again, those of us who are minorities need to pick our battles. And that for me was not one worthy of picking a battle over, but I shared your curiosity, relative to his mindset, but gave him the benefit of the doubt, because I know & love CB-his heart is gold. CB has quite a bark, but he does not have much of a bite, so at the end of the day, what he said is worthy of your question, but certainly not worthy of chastisement or a rebuke. Neither are you asking for, or demanding a chastisement or rebuke. Thanks for asking CB the question. And thanks for exhibiting having tough skin. CB usually gives you unusually tough responses. But you’ve proven yourself a woman. You can handle it.
Dwight,
You are wrong. Debbie’s questions were not “great questions” in the least. They showed a great lack of comprehending what I had stated. Therefore, it is impossible for her question be given a rating of “great.”
Obviously, from reading your Kudos to her, you may have missed a specific point also. Therefore, I shall make an effort toward clarity.
I stated:
“I would like for Black men, Brown men, Red men, White men, Yellow men, Green men, Blue men, Rainbow men, and all men to do a better job of being men.”
That statement was made for the specific reason to insure that the thrust of my comment was about men in general without reference to race or age. My intent was that men should do a better job of being men and that is not a matter of race, politics, or whether or not America is going to hell in a hand-basket. It is just a fact that the number of adult males who live according to a biblical worldview has decreased on planet earth for the past.
I wish that trend would change. That was my point, Dwight. If you get it, explain it to Debbie. She may take it at face value from you. She tends to have a need to twist anything I write. So, give it your best shot and if you are successful, we will know, because she will then apologize for twisting my comment and making it appear to be what it plainly was not.
CB: I thought I asked a fair question. I hear the green, blue, rainbow, all the time which when heard trivializes the racial issue in my opinion. When those words reach my ears, I actually want to tune the rest of the statement out. If that is a problem with you I am sorry but it’s a problem with me to use colors of skin that do not exist. It’s right up there with the words given to women who speak out such as where is your husband or elder or minister. It side steps the real issue.
I would still like to know what your definition of a man being a man is. People are different. I do not fit the definition of what some believe a woman should be. I do fit a personal definition of liking to get dirty, basketball, football and 70’s rock and roll music. That is who I am along with a lover and follower of Christ. But there is much more to me personally than the definition of a woman being a woman.
For the record, even though I disagree with you 99% of the time CB I don’t think you racist. Just in denial a tad bit. Well more than a tad bit. But wouldn’t label you a racist.
CB,
Seeking to understand, before being understood. Debbie & I both understand your salient point: Males, irrespective of color as a whole need to mature and develop a biblical lifestyle & value system. Your 4% statistic was startling to me, but I don’t question it’s veracity at all. There is enough anecdotal evidence available to seem to support that figure. Your point was well made & well taken.
Debbie & I both belong to a historically discriminated against sociological group. You may have been rejected in certain places at certain times for certain reasons, but you have never been discriminated against by other White males based on color or gender. Debbie & I have experienced that. Quite frankly, CB minorities are rarely pleased when members of the majority want to determine whether or not their concern or objection is valid. It is impossible for you to see it from their perspective unless you are one of them. That was the beauty of Dr. Russell Moore’s recent remarks on race. As a matter of fact, all of Moore’s remarks on race since he was appointed have been outstanding.
Debbie’s point was simply, it is somewhat demeaning and debasing to line up legitimate colors of people groups in the same line-up with illegitimate colors of people groups(blue, purple, etc). Or to echo her point, it somewhat trivializes the discussion. Now, you meant no harm. That was not your intent. That’s why I chose to not even address this issue & engage your salient point, which again, is startling & challenging. Let’s not get bogged down in the weeds on this issue. I accept the fact that all men regardless of color need to mature. I also accept Debbie’s point that from the standpoint of most minorities in my judgement, they don’t appreciate being listed in a line-up with illegitimate racial colors. Can we just respectfully agree to disagree on this point & move on?
I really threw in that “bark/bite” remark as a joke. In hindsight, I shouldn’t have. It was an insensitive remark, given the context & sensitive nature of this conversation. Please forgive me for having made that remark.
CB, you are a Man’s Man. What can the church do to improve that disastrous 4% statistic? Maybe you can write a great post on that issue.
Dwight and Debbie,
How this discussion got to whether or not I am a racist or insensitive to racial issues is, frankly, beyond me. Debbie, you are a white, adult, Christian female and Dwight, you are a black, adult, Christian male. However, today, I can’t help but think you both are from Mars and neither of you slept in the Holiday Inn Express last night.
Pardon me, but my point had nothing to do with race other than to illustrate that my desire for a reverse of one specific thing had nothing to do with race. For that matter, it has nothing to do with restoring America.
My desire to see a reverse of something in this country, and the entirety of humanity was stated in that I wish “all men to do a better job of being men.” Specific to my desire was that it relates to a lesser, not greater, number of males on earth living by a biblical worldview. That certainly has nothing to do with the Second Amendment or “dragging women around by their hair.” Where that came from, Debbie, I don’t know, but I do know it is just nuts.
Dwight, my comment had nothing to do with being a “man’s man,” although, I see nothing wrong with being one. My comment had to do with a desire for men to return in lager percentages to living by a biblical worldview rather than that percentage continuing to decrease.
Debbie, let me address what I mean by living by a biblical worldview so maybe you will not think I advocate “men dragging women around by their hair.” (Debbie, that is just crazy and you know it. Dwight, you should be ashamed for supporting her in such nutty statements and you know it.)
There are many working definitions of a biblical worldview and I am sure other people can articulate it better than I, but here is my definition (gleaned from the teachings of others) of a biblical worldview and in reading it I hope you understand why I would desire men to live by it in greater percentages than in decreasing percentages as is the current trend.
“A biblical worldview is a way of viewing or interpreting all of reality from a framework through which or by which one believes that there is a transcendent God who created the universe. The sum total of human experience has as its source the creative nature of God. The Bible is God’s propositional truth revealed to humanity and is sufficient to direct all human endeavors.”
My point was and continues to be that I don’t care what your socio-ethnic or socio-economic background is, I would desire to see men doing a better job of being men by living their lives in accord with a biblical worldview.
Living by a biblical worldview transcends race and racial issues.
Amen. Everyone who wanted to, got your point easily.
One more thing, Dwight so there shall be no friction between us at the “end of the day.”
The “bite” in all reality, is far stronger than the “bark” and that, my friend, has been a very well established fact in may places.
Debbie,
I said nothing about “biblical men.” I stated that I would like for “all men to do a better job of being men.” I also stated that “around 4% of adults males live according to a biblical worldview.”
The use of colors in my statement was to make the point that I am trying to make a statement that transcends race. That would have been easy for you to see, had you not been seeking to put a spin on my comment to give it a character that has no substance.
Debbie, over 800,000 children have been first time entrants into the American foster care systems per year over the last several years and the number is rising. That is a great increase from the past. Were men being men who lived by a biblical worldview, that number would not be on the increase. There are many other factors that could be presented here to make the point, but that one should suffice.
4%(where you got this number is also a curiosity to me) of men are not being what? Definition please? Card carrying gun toter? Pulling women around by the hair? What CB?
Debbie,
Your answers to CB are both insulting and silly. I’m not sure why CB even bothers to answer such silly nonsense.
CB, I see and understand clearly what you’re saying…and yes, I agree with you….men need to start being men, again…they need to love their wife; and they need to take care of their children. They need to lead their homes in the ways of God. And, they need to protect and provide for their families.
Thank you, CB, for stating this so plain and clear….
David
Volfan,
“…insulting and silly,”…..Really? “silly nonsense,”…..Really? Whatever happened to let your conversation be seasoned with grace? Is this really and Christlike or even necessary to address a Sister in Christ like this? Do you really believe that Debbi’s questioning the appropriateness of CB placing people of different real colors, in a line-up with non-people of non-existent people colors deserves that kind of response?
Is this a matter of a lack of “comprehension” by Debbi, or a lack of proper communication by CB? Volfan, please rethink your response to Debbi. Is it gentle, truthful, loving, gracious, or kind….as the Scripture admonishes us to communicate with one another?
David: It’s always silly to the one who is not being discriminated against. That is called denial. If you were the one being discriminated against, I doubt you would think them silly. They are legitimate concerns and questions. We need to begin to think here David. Think. Not continue to deny and to dismiss on the grounds of “silly” which is silly in and of itself. It’s also very maddening and frustrating. I am grateful that cb chooses to answer even if I disagree with his answers. Which I do.
Where I live and work everyday I see black people, Muslims(after 9/11 and after the Boston bombing) being threatened with death in public places as well as in private. I’m sick of the denial that there isn’t a problem. There is and it is coming from white men and women. In larger numbers that I care to see.
that should be than I care to see. The N word is alive and being used. I hate it and have spoken out. My former workplace refused to serve such people which I am very proud they act on this as it is a very large, world wide company. This is the reality I live in and those of different races live in. My questions are legitimate based on living, breathing, reality.
Debbie,
Are true Christians using the N word? If these people are of the world, we can do nothing about it. The world is not going to change. If it affects you so strongly then you have a mission ahead of you to display compassion and love toward both. I mean that in a nice way.
Dwight: I have to agree with David. To suggest that CB meant
as a measure of men with a biblical worldview is insulting. There’s no other way to take it.
Bill Mac: Good grief. I am simply asking for a definition.
To take what CB said and twist into some racial, male chauvinist rant is ridiculous….I am sorry but there’s no other way to say it… It’ s just plain silly.
David
David: Again good grief. This is the bad thing about discussions on a blog. It drives me nuts. And….once again, this has caused the issue that is important to go by the wayside. Good job.
Debbie,
You are the one, who took us down this road in the first place. And, you need to apologize to CB for insulting him, and insinuating that his comment was some kind of racial and male chauvinistic statement….because it wasn’t. And, for you to take his statement, and say all the things that you did…was wrong. Seriously wrong.
David
David: Demanding apologies is another thing that makes me bang my head against a desk. You have done this with me before and you will get the same result as before. No apology is necessary from me.
CB changed the whole conversation to avoid the race issue. He does this every time and you guys all join in. That is why this problem is still a problem in the SBC. Thankfully that is slowly changing, but that is the SBC’s M.O. slow change.
We should be the leaders in changing thought and action. We are Christians who are good at avoiding things that make us uncomfortable, like treatment of women and those of other races. And it really should even have to be a discussion, although Dave and Dr. McKissic have articulated it quite well. All we should have to do is know that it is wrong and stop it. No discussion just stop doing it. It’s really that simple. Everything has to be such a big discussion.
That should be, this should not even be a discussion, etc.
Debbie, you wrote, “Where I live and work everyday I see black people, Muslims (after 9/11 and after the Boston bombing) being threatened with death in public places as well as in private.”
I am curious about this statement and wish you would clarify. Do you mean that you hear these death threats every day? Or just that where you live and work every day, you sometimes hear these death threats? It is disturbing either way, but I’m not sure how I should read that.
Thanks.
Death threats should be reported to the police.
“Death threats should be reported to the police.”
As they were along with their business being terminated. I was proud to work for this company because of their action on this. Black and Muslim men and women work for us. They should not have been subjected to this abuse, albeit small in number. But as Robert pointed out one would have been too many. Unfortunately this caused most of the Muslim women to leave the job.
Bill: You are usually the reasonable one, but not today, not yesterday. I will not be answering any further.
One short story and this is all I will say.
We had a black man working(thankfully still working) for the company I worked for dealing in service to the public, as he was helping someone, they used the N word in speaking to him, berating him for something he did not do in his service to them. He was shocked, deeply hurt, and almost quit. Fortunately management talked him out of it, but he did change positions for awhile in order to get him out of that type of situation. Racism is real folks. Among Christians and non-Christians. This is 2013. It shouldn’t be happening, but it is. I hope we as the Church and the SBC change this.
It may be better than the past, but it is still a reality now and the only thing stopping it from being worse is laws and society, which as a whole is against it. Being politically correct in this instance being a deterrent. But racism is alive in many parts of our country, in our churches. That is reality as I know it. Thankfully in my church, this would not be tolerated. But not everywhere is like my church, as I have found in the past 6 years.
You can either deny it’s existence or stand against it as we as Holy Spirit Christians should do.
I remember being told of an incident in a church near where was serving in the late 90’s. An unrepentant and continually public racist in a business meeting stood up and made a racist statement and threatened to leave the church (with his money)…. The pastor immediatly exclaimed from the podium “Well, don’t hit the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya”. The bigot was a prominent “member” of the church and the minister got some flack for saying that but he stood by it. (I put quotes around member because this was obviously an example of unregenerate “membership”)
The racist left the church that night loudly exclaiming his disgust for N loving Pastors, and a church that had gotten “too d@#n dark anyway”.
The bigot did not live long after that night….his house caught on fire and he burned up in it.
All Christians should stand against legitimate racism. But Christians don’t need to be on pins and needles for fear of saying something obscurely and tangentially racist because they haven’t been given the politically correct manual of the things they can’t say (blue, cornbread and buttermilk, brown bag, niggardly, etc).
Nor should Christians be given a pass when they deliberately imply that a biblical world view for men is weapons and women abuse. It insults men and insults abused women.
Bill: And that is where I would strongly, strongly disagree with you. Those are racist terms.
“Well, don’t let the door hit ya where the good Lord split ya.”
Lol.
On what planet? Lunch bags are brown. Bringing your lunch in a brown bag is “brown bagging”. Blue is a color. I might remind you that people aren’t really black, white, yellow or red. Cornbread and buttermilk are both nasty to consume, but they are foods that go together (apparently). Niggardly is an English word that dates back to at least the 1500. It has nothing to do with race. No one should be able to sequester perfectly good words and hold them hostage.
Bill,
“Christians don’t need to be on pins and needles for fear of saying something obscurely and tangentially racist because they haven’t been given the politically correct manual of the things they can’t say (blue, cornbread and buttermilk, brown bag, niggardly, etc).”
Amen and amen. Caucasians have been effectively muzzled not knowing what is acceptable and what isn’t. Legitimate racism is deplorable. Talking about taking cornbread in your brown bag lunch and being called a racist for it is just ridiculous.
And Debbie, cornbread and buttermilk are not terms owned by African Americans. I grew up in south Alabama, Monroeville to be specific. Monroeville is home to Nelle Harper Lee of To Kill a Mockingbird fame. Wiki says, “Nelle Harper Lee, the youngest of five children of Amasa Coleman Lee and Frances Cunningham Finch, was raised in Monroeville, Alabama.”
My home town was the basis for the fictional Maycomb in the book. I know a little about white/black relations.
We had cornbread almost every meal. Fried chicken several times a week. Watermelon very often. That a small number of people have made some insults toward blacks with these terms is sad, but does not/should not wall them off from the rest of us.
One more cred fact. Until my sister’s unfortunate divorce, I had a black brother in law for over 10 years. I loved that man and still do, though he was the main cause of the divorce. So I get a little tired of being told what I can and cannot say and do and am often lumped in with true racists (not saying you did) because I don’t always say the politically correct thing. Man, when will this ever end?
The race baiting going on today is all about “intimidation.” Shut up about the facts and put up with the problems… No “clowning around!” (Pun intended). Because we have our first black president we must ignore any facts that might in any way call to account any person of color for their actions, which are not their fault anyway. Only white folk are racists because of the sins of our fathers. yeah right…
Preaching the Gospel calls all of us to repentance first and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. All Christians need to take a deep breath of repentance and faith, but we should not and can not ignore or hide from the fact of the sad condition of people of all ethnicities because of their own bad choices and believing the hideous lies of the false prophets that fill our culture today. I know I have made many bad choices in my life and have had to live with them, but I don’t have to keep living with them. Thank God for His mercy and grace in Christ Jesus.
I deplore racism ….
I have publicly disagreed with CB on Voices – see mammoth wine post for details.
But y’all are being unreasonably hard on him here. I did not take either of his statements in dispute as being racist or deserving of the rebukes he’s enduring.
Les, it’s more than that.
If a person acts differently (including talking) around one race, than around another, that’s racism. If a person says to themselves, uh oh, there’s a black person in the room, I cannot say brown bag, when they might have said it otherwise, that is racism.
Having a list of words that you refrain from using because of the presence of people of a certain color, is racism.
Bill, I know. It’s totally out of control and ridiculous. MLKJr would be sad to see how far we have actually regressed from his dream of a colorblind society.
trivializes
CB,
After having written the post of the century(near 600 comments), it’s good to see you weigh in here. BTW, I totally agreed with your alcohol post.
CB, I share your burden to see males live up to the challenge that David gave to Solomon: “Prove yourself to be a man”(1 Kings 2:1,2). This is the revival that we need.
Didn’t know ’bout the 4% manhood statistic. Where’d you get that from? Was there an analysis given, or criteria listed, for those who qualified for the 4 %? Interesting.
CB, I know we disagree a lot & don’t always see eye-to-eye on several issues-mainly political stuff-but I want you to know that you are truly a biblical man in my book, and I am glad to call you friend. Now what are you going to do to help the rest of us to become half the man that you are?????
Dwight,
I got the 4% during doctoral research. I can assure you it did not come from Wikipedia or any internet source.
cb,
It is obvious that your initial comment was to emphasis the colorless nature of God’s view of men. And with that… all men in the church are commanded to do several things:
1 Timothy 2:8 “Therefore I want the men in every place to pray, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and dissension.”
Of course the therefore that is outlined from the beginning of the letter entails so much more than restoring America. In fact, restoring America is not in the cards…but making disciples, and seeing men restored in the terms of new life is the charter. We should stop seeking the trivial, and begin to act as men in the church.
Blessings,
Chris
Chris Johnson,
Why are you making a statement to me about restoring America? And there was nothing about my comment that is trivial. The desired restoration of a higher number of men living by a biblical worldview is not trivial. I really do not understand your comment.
Chris Johnson,
If CB Scott tells you that tomorrow is Christmas, you better hang your stocking up tonight.
Jess Alford,
That is not true. I am a highly errant man. My entering this thread was to make a statement related to the decrease of a biblical worldview mindset among men, not only in this country, but in the world at large.
It is my contention that we live in a post Christian culture and I do not believe that a restoration of our Homeland should be the focus of New Testament followers of Christ in this country.
However, I do believe that Christian men should stand up for godly conduct, right thinking, and biblical ethics and morality wherever they are and at whatever risk necessary. I believe that Christian men should do that no matter their ethnic or socio-economic background.
Yet, above all things, I believe that Christian men are to obey the mandates of Christ our Lord, take up the cross, die to ourselves, and follow Him, and seek to fulfill the Great Commission in whatever circumstance we find ourselves. We are to be willing to do so “in season and out of season.”
Ultimately, and regardless of the cost to us personally or corporately, Christian men are to be about the gospel of our Lord, The Christ, obeying Him in all things, leaving the consequences of our obedience to our Master, in the hands of Sovereign God for we have been bought with a price and we are not our own.
cb, I agree.
That is Christians in general CB. Men and women. I’m simply not buying the 4%. I’m also not buying the change in subject or changing the point of this post. This is not a man’s world CB.
Dear Debbie:
I am in your camp, when it comes to prejudice. However, in this case, I do not think CB intended any prejudicial remarks. His subject, as he says, is for men to be men, regardless of the tint of their skin. Sometimes we can become so sensitive that, like a wound that has been irritate, almost anything will aggravate the situation. This is what I think is the situation here, and CB came back at you in indignation. A little thought and discernment on his part in this case would have picked up on your difficulty. His protests have been to the point that he is not promoting prejudice, and we are bidden by the book to take men at their word until they contradict them by actions and/or words.
Your wound is very understandable to me. We have in our son’s church a black man married to a white woman, a black woman married to a white woman, and a black teenager who attends. The black man who is also American Indian had grown completely dissatisfied with the churches. Our daughter-in-law who teaches nursing got the white lady’s older sons to attending (they were in her nursing class), and they got their mother to attend which led to the son of her and her husband coming. Finally, the husband came. He is quite a fellow as is his wife, who found out with him that there is prejudice in the Black community against Whites marrying Blacks just as there is in White communities. I am always reminded that Moses had an Ethiopian or Cushite for a wife. Color is really a modern slavery issue, an excuse for slavery and prejudice, etc. The truth is that Black men, Yellow men, Red men, and White men are really all just a part of one human race. At Good Hope, the last church I attended, before joining our son’s church, we had an American Indian lady who was head of the Lab Team that is working on growing body parts from a person’s own stem cells (no stem cells from aborted infants). They had completed the animal tests and were proceeding to the testing of humans, when the employer let her go in order to hire someone for less pay. That blew my mind, for I realized that the issue of profitability is at the basis of our present day labor problems. With automation, robotics, and computerization, there is no need for laborers. And where they still retain laborers rather than make the investments to exclude the workers, it is slave type labor or labor for such low amount of pay as to be absurd. We are going to have great difficulties in our nation, when Blacks and Whites and Yellows and Reds wake up to the fact that employers really do not need employees anymore. What some might want to do is exacerbate the differences in order to stir up hostilities and unrest to the point of conflict. It is sort of like the tribal conflicts in Africa. What most people fail to realize is our common humanity. We are all humans. We all have basically the same needs, desires, etc. Now we need a change in society which is cognizant of the present realities and which will seek a different kind of employment and usefulness and meaning for every individual. The point is to treat every person a human being, treat them humanely, providing for them the employment with the means to not only survive, but to really live and prosper. O I forgot to say, we had one Black man and his family in the Good Hope Church who was an accountant for the State of North Carolina, a CPA. Another fellow was a supervisor for the state highway dept. People have talent, and we need to make use of their gifts.
Debbie, there has been a considerable change in the attitudes of Whites, especially in the South in the past 30 years. My Black Nurse who comes to check the machine that weighs me, etc., and reports to the doctors, has a Master’s, told me she came back to the South from the state of Washington, because she found that the South had really begun to change.
That still does not stop the fact that some folks will make statements that are careless or well-meant, but still seem out of order. A friend, pastoring in another state told me he had that problem. One of his white ladies said something that was taken most adversely by his black members. Thus, he had to spend some time, getting the matter straightened out.
CB: Look on Debbie’s situation and that of her husband as one like a wound where the slightest touch is painful. I take it that you were not being racist, and you were ready to take issue over the matter. Protesting in a case like this is really fruitless. Just consider the wound and act accordingly and remember, if the shoe was on the other foot, you, too, might feel the pinch, especially if you had a sore.
James,
Read closely. I would never put the “shoe on the other foot” in the first place. I never mentioned Debbie, her husband, Merle, or Dwight.
I made a comment, stating that I wanted men to be men and live according to a biblical worldview in greater percentages no matter race or any other factor of background. Nothing more, nothing less.
CB: Why are you being so sensitive? I wrote in your defense, because I could not see any prejudice in it. I know you did not have Debbie or Merle or Dwight in mind. You and Debbie have one thing in common: you both are overly sensitive. I am very much pro-Black, etc., due to my training and experience. Thus, I am well-acquainted with the phenomenon of the wounded spirit. It is like a wound on the body. Pick at it, and it will become something downright serious. Personally, you folks really don’t have a quarrel. Now the folks that advocate segregation in marriage are the ones who really have a problem. However, they do not know it. David, I almost think you ought to close the blog down. Too many are wasting words, when they really do not have a serious differences. Unconscious racism is readily evident in the segregationist mentaliy. I know Whites that I would not want my children married too, and Blacks who would make great husbands and wives. It is like saying African Americans can’t be great scholars or doctors or whatever, and the truth is really the reverse. General Lee did not believe they could ever be the equals of Whites even though he bowed at the communion rail with a Black man, when all the Whites in the church gasped at the man’s audacity in going to the communion like a White. That was a week or two after the surrender at Appomattox. At that very time there were two Black men in South Carolina who had the equivalent of degrees from Oxford University. They were the slaves who served their Master’s sons, and those sons believed that anything they did there servants should do. That happened to include and Oxford education (I am not sure whether they supplied them with the books and taught them or they actually accompanied them to Oxford and studied there too, but one of the servants was an expert in Hebrew and I forget what the other one’s field of study was). Anyway there is school bearing the name of one of them, a back to back campus with South Carolina State, Claflin University.
CB, I know you had good intentions in what you said. And I understand what led to Debbie’s response. I repeat a mental wound can be irritated by the most innocent of remarks just like a physical wound can be irritated by the rubbing of clothing on it. I do hope both of you would cease the wrangle, for I think CB would side with Debbie, Merle, and Dr. McKissic. If he would not, I would be the most surprised person on this blog. Now there are Whites and Blacks who have serious problems, who are guilty of crimes, Just as there are Blacks and Whites who are the finest people living. I speak from experience. Hopefully, everyone will understand that I meant to be taken in support of both sides, thinking that both have meant well, and the differences are a tempest in a teapot.
As to the racists, I feel sorry for them. And the one thing I have learned in my life is that you can tell your children whatever you please, but when they are grown they will do as they please. You just hope and pray that they will do things that fall within the parameters of right and wrong that you tried to teach them, like do what is right, not what is wrong.
James,
There is no “overly sensitive” on my part here. I must ask you at this point if you read the comment thread as it pertains to this situation. I don’t think you have.
James, my comment had nothing to do with Debbie, her husband, Dwight, General Lee, South Carolina, Oxford, or any thing else in your comment.
The substance of my comment was simple. I would like for the governing principle in the lives of men, no matter their ethnic, social, demographic, or economic background, to be that of a biblical worldview. I would desire a greater percentage in the present rather than a decrease among men having a biblical worldview. The result of that would certainly be a lessening of abuse toward women and children in the world.
Frankly, James, my desire is very akin to your desire for worldwide revival.
My consternation is based on the strange spin Debbie put on my comment, twisting it to the point of absurdity and then having Dwight support her. . . . and now, you writing to give me sensitivity lessons.
Lastly, James, there are no “sides” here. I made a comment about a desire for men to be men and live by a biblical worldview. Then Debbie did what Debbie normally does in any and every comment thread she enters on this blog or any other. That’s about all there is to it.
Dear CB: My comments had nothing to do with your original comments. They had to do with the responses you have made with Debbie. And I do think she carries her wound in way that exposes her to being overly sensitive on the issue, or, to put it another way, she needs to realize that others are not necessarily thinking along such lines whenever they make comments like yours. I had no trouble discerning exactly what you meant, and understanding somewhat of her concerns I could see why she responded as she did. She should have chosen to ignore what she perceived as an intentional pain which was non-existent on your part. And you mean well CB and would have done better just to hear or bear with her pain, knowing as you do that there was not a speck of racism intended by it. This wounded analogy which I am using a is a metaphor for the anguish of those who have had their lives so disrupted by racism that they see everything essentially and primarily in terms of that issue. I have met several Blacks who assume everything White is their enemy, but I know better. And I know Whites who think every thing Black is their enemy, and there, likewise, I know better. However, if one has encountered violence or suffered from folks of an opposite skin color, they are apt to respond to every thing negatively.
I could tell a number of stories illustrative of the foregoing problem. Dr. McKissic, I am sure, could do the same. Perhaps others could. We all know there have been Blacks and Whites who have sacrificed their very lives for others, and I mean Whites dying for the sake of Blacks and Blacks dying for the sake of Whites. Sacrifices like that remind us of our Lord’s sacrifice for us and that we should be willing to go the second mile in bearing with wounded spirits. Debbie, from childhood, I have been able to feel for others. My mother said she could sing a sad song to me as a baby, and I would cry. What Blacks suffered under slavery (which I read about in the records) actually gave me nightmares. I also suffered nightmares from reading the accounts of the Waldensians and their sufferings at the hands of the Catholic Inquisitors and soldiers. Again, I had nightmares at view some photographs of a concentration camp taken by a member of second pastorate.
And may I always be overly sensitive. May that never change. God has graced me with this concerning other people since I was a child who saw racism in the North, albeit in smaller degrees, since a young child, and without being taught knew it to be wrong and hated it then.
God grant me to always be over sensitive. It is one thing I never want changed.
“a black woman married to a white woman”
Is this a typo?
A Black woman married to a White man? Ever hear of typos and at 72 with a heart condition and being sleepy, I probably made others?
I wasn’t trying to nitpick, just making sure I was reading correctly. Glad it was a typo… 😉
Me, too!
Let me make sure the typo in the above comment is corrected. I meant to say a Black woman married to a White man, and not a Black woman married to a White woman.
Debbie,
The 4% was a study among men only. That is why I made the statement. Also, I did not change the subject of the post. My comment related to Dave Miller’s post about going back to the past. His point was that calling for America to be restored is not the primary purpose of God’s children. I agree. I agree totally.
However, I would desire that the percentage of men who lived by a biblical worldview increase rather than decrease. My rationale is based on the data from research that presents that the number of adult males who live according to a biblical worldview was, in the past, greater than in the present.
BTW, Debbie, men who live according to a biblical worldview do not treat women and children in ways that are detrimental. That was the concept I was trying to explain when I stated that over 800,000 children become first time entrants into the foster care system yearly and the number is increasing. My contention is that if men treated women and children properly, such high numbers of children going into foster care would not be happening.
Debbie, my comments are not abusive toward women here. The truth is that I am advocating they are not to be abused as are children not to be abused. My hope is that such thinking needs to transcend race or racial issues.
Wait for it……
I was agreeing with you, you knucklehead…. now, I’m certain I don’t make a lot of sense some of the time. But, in this case, I am agreeing and only stating that obvious. Which is… if men in America were to strive to live like real men by submitting to the Holy Spirit, then we wouldn’t need to be concerned about America…..even though America has never been the main subject.
-Chris
Chris Johnson,
Sometimes I am a knucklehead. I thought you were jumping on the wagon with Debbie and Dwight. I apologize.
“with Debbie and Dwight”? Come on CB, you know better. Everyone needs to extend a little more grace, elasticicity, and mercy to one another. Can’t we all get along? There is nothing here to really squabble over.
If CB acknowledges that perhaps Debbir has a point in that many minorities don’t appreciate being classified with non minority colors(blue, green, purple, etc.); and if Debbie acknowledges that perhaps in the blogosphere it is simply better to not always address every possible violation of one’s sensitivities–or to read a person’s heart and as a result extend to them grace and the best possible interpretation of a statement that is subject to the worst possible interpretation–then we have reconciled this matter. All would be well. And we could lay this matter to rest. So who will go first?
Maybe I’ll go first. CB, If by admitting that I saw merit in Debbie’s arguement that comparing real colors to false colors is not a good idea, and potentially offensive to minorities was inappropriate–in the sense that I should have been challenging Debbie to give you the benefit of the doubt, and to extend to you the most charitable interpretation–please forgive me for not doing so. Would you forgive me please? Perhaps, I should of challenged Debbie to do as I did when I read your statement: and that is to recognize that you were only communicating that all males needed to improve their behavior regardless of their color. That’s all you were saying. Although you said it imperfectly. That means you are human.
CB, now it’s your turn ?
Hey, are you still hanging around Birmingham. I may be down that way in a few weeks. I’d love to hear your take on the Crimson firsthand. 🙂
Dwight: You know my deep respect and love for you and your family. But I stand by my statements and cannot in good conscience retract them.
I know CB meant no harm, but good intentions don’t make it right. Education does. I still think of people of color being thrown into the same sentence as the colors “green”, “blue”, etc. and I still can’t stomach it. As I said, when I read or hear such things it trivializes the race issue or as I see it problem. Racism is rearing it’s ugly head again in too many parts of our country and tolerance, whether meant as harm or not, just isn’t an option for me.
Jess and Job’s comments are a prime example that there is still a problem. I can’t read anymore from either of them on this subject.
You stand by implying that CB’s definition of men with a biblical world view as woman abusing gun nuts? Not surprising.
There is absolutely nothing wrong with saying that no matter what color you are, a man should be a man with a Biblical worldview. And, to take offense to CB saying it doesnt matter what color….whether Black, WHITE, Green, Red, or Yellow…is not a racial statement of any kind, whatsoever….in fact, it’s just a way of driving the point home…that color should NOT matter… even if you’re green or purple….it does NOT matter…a man should be a Christian man with a Biblical worldview.
Good gracious….what’s our society going to?
Have any of yall seen that movie “PCU?” You know, the movie where everyone on a college campus had gone politically correct extreme….so extreme that everything became an issue…protesting everything? That’s what I’m seeing in America, today….we’ve gone PC to the extreme…and, everyone is getting their little feelings hurt…waaaa waaa waaa….boo hoo….
CB was simply trying to drive home the truth that color did NOT matter in what he was saying about men being the MEN OF GOD that they need to be….
*This is being said by a vertically challenged(fat) man, who is age disabled(old), who is an English-German-French-Cherokee American.
David
Dwight: We’re of different races, so we have different perspectives. We try to understand but I know we can’t fully. Here’s my problem with this conversation.
No one, especially Christians, should deliberately be insensitive to other people, especially someone of another race. Nor should we be incautious about giving accidental insult: within reason.
But it seems that every day we have another banned word or phrase that we have to add to our list. A few years back, we discovered that the phrase “cornbread and buttermilk” was racially offensive. I certainly didn’t know that. We learned awhile ago for the first time that the word “niggardly” is off limits, even though it has nothing to do with race. Just recently we learned that the term “brown bag” (as in lunch) is racially offensive. Who knew? Now we find out, for the first time, that only approved colors are allowed to be said when speaking of a colorblind society. C’mon! How are any of us supposed to know that? Where will it end? We ALL knew what CB meant. Why take offense when none is meant and none is given?
Bro Dwight: I want to ask you a question that I really don’t know the answer to. I get Dave’s point and I agree with it. What we refer to the good old days were not so good for minorities.
Here’s my question: Overall, do you think this time is better for black people than say, 30-50 years ago? I’m not talking about rights per se. We all know that is better. But I’m talking about overall quality of life, and especially family life.
Yes, we have a black president, and there are black people in high places who are admired and loved by people of all colors. But do you think the average black person is more secure, safer, more prosperous, etc, than back then? I honestly don’t know the answer.
Bill Mac,
Substantive, and irreversible progress had been made on the racial front in practically every sphere of American society. Yet, there is still a ling way to go.
Is the average Black person more “secure, safe, and prosperous?” Yes!!! Absolutely. Are there systemic, structural, & cultural hurdles & obstacles impeding continued progress? Yes!!!! Absolutely.
Many issues that Black people face, can only be fixed by Black people. Bill O’reilly has been discussing this for the past two weeks. The discussions have been fascinating.
Dwight,
I have caught a few of Bill’s discussions as well,..they are fascinating. Do you believe that government policies are hurting or helping the black community as a whole in America. From the work we do in the inner city life in Nashville, we find one policy to be extremely hurtful …one which moves families around to government housing projects in different areas of the city every 2-4 years quite debilitating. Of course those policies proportionally effect black skinned American’s more than the White, Hispanic, etc. that get moved as well. It is just one example of what we fight every two years in our ministry where the government, in order to keep getting federal funding flowing, must move family units….its like shuffling deck chairs on the Titanic.
Is there any one government program that you believe negatively effects the black family in a more profound way than other programs?
Blessings,
Chris
Chris,
Any program that provides more benefits to a mother if there is no father in the home, and increase benefits if additional children are born, is certainly a government program that weakens, rather than strengthen the family. Many of the government programs to “aid” families do just that. The government becomes daddy, and of course you and I know that that is not a biblical, workable, or good idea.
I agree… and we are seeing so much more of those poor policies permeating the inner cities in Nashville. We have had some success over the last 19 years with thousands of children and single parent families, but the government is determined to continue to raise their budgets on the backs of those moms, ultimately creating a dependent, government led society.
-Chris
Dwight: Thanks. That is good news. Honestly in the face of what we hear and see in the media, that is not always so clear.
Bill Mac,
I did not & do not take offense to CB’s remark. I do know that many minorities–including myself–don’t like being lined up with non-existent racial colors. To do so is overstating the point, and it runs the risk of minimizing or trivializing racial distinction and history. For the umpteenth time, I know, Debbie knows, and everybody else on this blog knows that CB’s remark was not intended to minimize or trivialize racial distinctions, history, traditions, or any racial matter–period. I would have never made the observation that Debbie did regarding CB’s comment, because of what has happened here. We all have downy far to much ink & time discussing this matter. Dave Milker’s post & point was such a good one…on which I believe Debbie, CB, you, Volfan, myself and just about everyone on this comment thread agrees. So I wish that Debbie & CB would concede that the each other both make valid points on this matter, and we move on. Let’s not lose sight here of Dave Miller’s post and point which is the good ole’ days were not good for everybody. To that we all say Amen!!!! At the very least, CB & Debbie could simply agree to disagree, and the rest of us could agree to cease commenting on their disagreement.
Bill Mac,
If there USA redeeming virtue to this conversation and dispute between Debbie and CB it is this: These conversations are usually held in private settings with only people of one race present, and even often time, only one gender is present. We normally talk about each other rather than to each other. At least we are talking to each other here, and we are learning things about each other. And that is a good thing. Statements that are perfectly acceptable in a all one race, or one gender setting, we may discover, those statements are Mott so acceptable in a mixed group setting. We don’t know that until we communicate in cross cultural context. That may be the major take-away from this Debbie-CB dispute. If so, good has and will come out of it(Rom. 8: 28).
“USA”‘… autocorrect mistake. Should have been…If there is redeeming virtue….
Dwight: Every instinct (well, almost every) tells me that I should defer to a black man when discussing issues of race. But this one frankly sticks in my craw. How will we ever discuss things among different races and genders when every innocuous word we utter might have someone crying racism? Especially when that someone is not even of the race that is supposed to be offended? It is even worse when that multigender, multiracial group of people are supposed to be Christians. Frankly I’m disappointed that the color blue raises flags with you but “gun toting, dragging women by the hair” doesn’t seem to bother you. The former is an innocuous statement about transcending race, and the second is a deliberate insult. Which one should we be more concerned about?
Bill Mac,
Quite frankly I did not consider that statement to be referencing or encompassing CB, or reflective of his attitude. I thought she was making a generic reference to the attitude & actions of some men–which we know that would be true of some males. I had no inkling & still don’t that Debbie was ascribing to CB the traits or characteristics of “dragging women by the hair”. CB has been known to tote a gun. But in Southern Culture, that is not necessarily viewed as negative. So Bill, I am failing to see why that statement was/is problematic to you and Volfan?
Dwight: C’mon. She asked CB was his definition of a man with a biblical worldview was. She then asked CB if it was a guy toting guns and dragging women around by the hair. How can you interpret that as not being directed at him?
I appreciate your desire to generously interpret blog comments. But I don’t think you have applied that standard judiciously on this thread. Oh well, there are worse things going on in the world besides blog bickering. Have a good evening, or what is left of it.
Bill Mac: It was not directed at CB, it was generic. It was meant to generate an answer to my question of a definition. No red flags need to be raised. 🙂
Debbie: CB took your remarks as directed at him, and they seemed most inflammatory.
Yes, of course it was.
But the color “blue” was a racial insult. It all makes sense.
First time I ever heard that blue was a racial insult!!!
Yea, it appears that to some “racist terminology” is an ever changing and moving target. It’s hard to keep up sometimes.
I’ve been told that identifying the president as one who leans toward socialist Philosiphy is racist.
Any opposition to political positions is caled racist…
It’s nuts.
Tarheel,
I live in Missouri. Think rodeo clown wearing an Obama mask. Quote from an article about it:
“The fallout from a Missouri rodeo clown’s mockery of President Obama continued as the Missouri State Fair said it will force all clowns to undergo sensitivity training and the head of the state rodeo-clown organization resigned…”
One would think this is the first time ever that a sitting prez was mocked by a clown or someone using a mask? Really? Ask GW Bush. Ever see such an outcry when Bush was mocked? Nixon? Reagan? No. But there’s one reason for this backlash. Obama is off limits because of race.
Wow you guys. Just wow. This is going from bad to worse. I think it’s time to stop talking. I would have been offended watching a rodeo clown with Obama’s face on. Are we Holy Spirit filled, people loving, Christians or are we just clods who call ourselves Christians? I am beginning to think the latter just based on most comments here.
I think some sensitivity training for the SBC would not be a bad idea. Wow. I think our differences may be that I work, live in the world, and ministers maybe not so much.
Some words in and of themselves are not racist, but have been used to form sentences that are racist. I swear the internet brings about a form of insanity. I doubt face to face you guys would be saying such things and I think it furthers the point I am making. Words and actions among Christians matter. A lot.
The words pregnant, barefoot, kitchen, home, stay, are not bad words by themselves but put them in the right sentence and they are the ultimate put down. That is my point. Now I really am done.
Help me remember, was the NAACP calling for the justice dept. to get involved when Bush or Nixon or Reagan were being skewered with masks and effigy portrayals? Nope.
“I think some sensitivity training for the SBC would not be a bad idea. Wow. I think our differences may be that I work, live in the world, and ministers maybe not so much.”
Well, maybe, maybe not. I know that I’m out there every day. I suspect many ministers are as well.
Maybe you’ll be interviewed by the secret service in the investigation against the clown….since he clearly incited violence against the president.
The president should call for racial unity by coming out publicly, laughing this off, addressing that it was in no way racist, and further demonstrating thick skin – able to deal with being the brunt of the exercise of political free speech. Then he’ll call out the race baiters for trivializing real racism and such by acting so stupid over this…but I’m betting that won’t happen.
The first part of My last comment (#206 right now) was directed to Les.
Boy I hope not. Who wants the SS in their living room. Yes, had he manned up and done that this whole non issue would have gone away.
Welcome to the Twilight Zone.
Good word, Dave. Over the years whenever I would mention the position you state, I’d get funny looks from various people.
Do you think those funny looks were only because of the position you articulated?
Sorry, I couldn’t help it.
While I’m not as up on later church history as some folks here (and I definitely wasn’t around to experience a lot of it, being a child of the eighties), from what I’ve read a lot of the “Christian nation” feeling from, say, the fifties, was more of an American civil religion than a real focus on the Gospel of Christ. There’s no denying that the overall culture of the time was different (in a lot of ways for the better, but also in a lot of ways for the worse), but was it really because people were more in tune with Christ, or was it because of some pseudo-Christian atmosphere? The analytical side of me cannot help but wonder if the relative decline of this civil religion is what has led to declining numbers in our churches, etc.; were such numbers merely a false indicator based on the prevailing atmosphere?
I identify with Dave’s patriotism; I love this country, and thank God that I was blessed enough to be born here. However, in the past few years, I have come to realize more and more that our focus should not be on some idealized version of America, but on Christ. While I do not believe this absolves Christians of any responsibility of being good citizens who attempt to shape public action and discourse, our worldview should maintain as its foundation the cross, not the Stars and Stripes.
Having worked in welfare departments in the Mo. in the early 60s and in Ky. in the late 60s, I can say that the Federal Welfare program really did harm to the Black families. At the beginning, in Mo., a recipient of welfare could be removed from the rolls, if they were in a continuing sexual liaison. By the end of the 60s, with the Abe Fortas rule which put a penalty on being a parent and a premium on being a paramour, the finishing touches to a ruinous welfare state was in full force. By ’79 CBS produced a 60 minute documentary emceed by Dan Rather, if memory serves correctly, which they did not dare show in Prime Time. I caught it on a Friday night at about 12:30 A.M. or 1:00 A.M. in the morning and stayed up for an hour to watch it. The essence of the program was that welfare had destroyed 90% of the Black families in the Ghettoes. Such a system made it easy for a man to have sex and forget about the results. With the decline of the families, there came the corresponding decline in the ability of Blacks to do well in school. Note: Where a strong Black Mother figure was able to insist on study and good conduct, like that of Dr. Ben Carson, Black children became educated and trained adults, making a contribution to society. Blacks were never inferiors; they were like the White share croppers children, if they got to read, were encouraged to study by those who raised them, they succeeded. I know, I speak from experience, having been raised in exactly such a situation. My grandmother thrust a book in my hand and told me to read (she had already been teaching me some…she had an 8th grade education that in that period was better than the education some college graduates have today). That began my education. By age 9 I had read Douglas Southhall Freeman’s Robert E. Lee, all four volumes, and his Lee’s Lieutenants (3 volumes) and Margaret Mitchell’s Gone With The Wind (and though I never had a chance to meet that lady, our paths would cross numerous times in my life or perhaps I should say my paths would cross those of people associated with her or her book or her movie). None of such reading would make feel a Black was inferior or second class. My Maternal Grandfather that raised me was from Illinois and a Black Man had saved his life. Thus, I never picked up the prejudices of our neighbors who were rather noted for it at that time (the 40s & 50s). I moved to St. Louis in ’55 and had James Wright, a Black teenager in the next seat to me in our home room at Beaumont High and in some classes. James would take my lunch money every day as we bet on the baseball teams which he knew from living close to the action, whereas in Arkansas, except for hearing Harry Carrey on radio for the Cardinals then (the Southern Gentlemen’s Baseball team they were called then), I did not know squat about the teams. Finally, one day I said, “James, I got to quit betting with you. You take my lunch money every day, and I go hungry.” He laughed, and we quit that episode of gambling (I wasn’t a Christian then, but an Atheist and was wrong in all of my gambling, including gambling that there was no God).
Anyway, I want to remind every one to pray for Dr. Gene Spurgeon, pastor of FBC of Cahokia, Ill. as he will speak to the Ministerial Alliance tomorrow. Cahokia is a back to back city with East St. Louis. Brother Gene has about 3 Blacks in his church, and he and I are both graduates of the Black University, Lincoln U. of Jefferson City. (We began our education together and wound up at Lincoln in ’67). Gene’s Church Property has been marked in some way showing one of the gangs. Pray that he will get the ministers to praying for a Third Great Awakening, aa great visitation of God to Cahokia and all of the surrounding area, that will reach East St. Louis and the gangs. It is a grief to me to see so many fine young men and women whose lives are being and will be wasted by such associations and activities. I am sure Dr. McKissic must feel the same burden. And the Whites are in decline, too, everywhere. We seem to be on the verge of collapse, but it is never to late to call on God for help in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and for His (the latter’s) glory.
I have asked the Lord for the whole earth in a Third Great Awakening, and, as an earnest that I am on the right track, I have asked Him for confirmation through a Great Movement of the Holy Spirit in saving great masses of the following six cities and their surrounding areas, New York City, Washington, D.C., Raleigh-Durham-Chapel Hill, Chicago, St. Louis, and Memphis Tennessee and Nimmons Arkansas which has no church of the Trinitarian Christian Faith at all, my home church ceased existence as the members died or moved away and not enough were left to sustain a pastor..the few left in the town go elsewhere to church. This visitation to be in the next four months and of such nature that even the New Media must take notice. Also I pray that since Saudi Arabia is building Mosques here in America with the avowed purpose of making the US Moslem, I ask the Lord that in a single 24 hour period, of a night and a day, that whole nation would be converted, being encouraged by Ravi Zarcharias story of a Moslem who dreamed that Jesus appeared to him one night which resulted in his conversion and his leaving the nation (the name of it is not known) in order to live publically as a Christian (Something that would have cost him life in that nation…I have heard Ravi tell this on tv several times). Let us pray that the Lord shall appear to every last Moslem in that nation with the result of their conversion in that 24 hour period. I know this is absurd, but it is not impossible for all things are possible with God. I cannot put a time limit on it as I have done for the places mentioned above. I will say this, that since I began praying for a Great Awakening and have at times mentioned such cities as New York, etc., that in many of those Great Churches have arisen in the past 40 years. Who knows what God will do? I plead among other verses, Ps.72:19;Hab.2:14; Isa.11:9; and Dan 2 (the stone cut out of the mountain without human hands becoming a great mountain and filling the whole earth. One can also find promises in the prophecies concerning the patriarchs and reason to pray for every family on earth, and then there is the promise in the model prayer, your kingdom come, your will be done on earth (under these adverse circumstances) just like it is being done in Heaven (under circumstances perfectly favorable to it.
I will say this…I agree with Bob Cleveland….that there’s some things I wish we could go back to…like being able to sleep at night with our windows up, and never locking a door….or, the worse thing happening in school was talking in class and chewing gum; rather than school shootings and rapes in the bathrooms, etc.
I will say this, however, that America…and every other nation for that matter….have never really been an innocent, good, Christian nation….BUT, history does teach us that many great nations of the past crumbled from within….they started out in a noble way….then, sin increased more and more….until they crumbled from within….morally. The USA started out so noble….it was about freedom and freedom of religion. And, we are most certainly going down…morally…we have most certainly gone down….gays are out of the closet, and passing gay friendly laws….adultery and divorce are prevalent….crime is out of control; the prisons are full and overflowing….porno is a billion dollar industry….sex slaves are kidnapped, bought and sold every day….abortion is more than just prevalent….school shootings, mall shootings, theater shootings, etc are all too common in our day and age…..
I’d say that we’re definitely experiencing a moral decline….while we’ve never been an innocent nation, and have done things which were absolutely wrong, and we’ve never really been a Christian nation….we’re still going downhill morally….and, we’re picking up speed….
David
Good points, David….Not sure anyone disagrees with your premise – I know I don’t.
I just think we need to be clear which ideals and principles and “days” we wish to “return to”…because I do not think that everyone, especially those of darker skin tones than I have for example, understands what we mean…so they ‘hear’ it differently than we mean it. Ya know?
*not everyone, especially….
Vol,
I agree with you about Bob Cleveland’s comment. I also believe your comment here presents the truth of our fallen culture.
I’m not a promoter of “Restoring America”, however, not for the same reason Dave has mentioned. At least, that is not the only reason. There were great revivals going on during that time, too. We sent missionaries to the fields. America won wars and kept the world at bay so there could be peace in some form. We even rebuilt what we destroyed. America has made great leaps into medicine, science, industry and technology.
I think the race issue will not go away in our generation or several future generations. Some group will always feel inferior and another group will reinforce that feeling. The three (3) things that the world has is “the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life” and that will keep mankind at bay racially. All we can do is live forgiven and love the brethren.
Good words, Bruce.
So, we have “progressed” from segregated lunch counters to a national billion dollar porn addiction and astrinomically high urban crime rates? Sounds as though we’ve simply switched from one expression of depravity to another. Liberals are wrong. There is no “arc of history” that bends natually toward justice. Conservatives are also wrong. Past generations are not wholesome reminders of the “good ole days.” We aren’t getting better or worse. We are what Scripture indicates every human civilization is: a society of helpless sinner driving around the same cul-de-sac proclaiming progress.
I think each new day is a challenge, we cross a new bridge we have never crossed before. Some things are getting better, some are getting worse.
I don’t desire to sound like a preacher of gloom and doom, but when things such as the economy get bad enough America will turn back to God.
We live in a time when young men don’t want to work. They wear their pants around their thighs instead of covering their butts. I still haven’t figured out what that is all about. I do know they will not get hired unless they pull their pants up.
We live in a time when young men and women don’t have any respect for the elderly or one another, no manners or morals either.
We live in a time when adultery or fornication is socially acceptable, along with abortion and nudity. You can go to Wal-Mart and see folks with more hanging out of their clothes than in.
When things get bad enough America will turn back to God. There isn’t a single one of you that can tell me that there will not be a World war III.
Or, an economy so bad that there will not be mass starvation in this country.
Whites, Blacks, Reds, and Browns, need to get their ducks in a roll, and wake up. There could be awful times coming.
I believe in treating everyone equal. If you have worked hard all your life like I have, supported your family like I have, paid taxes like I have, you are a pretty good guy, lost, but a pretty good guy. Jesus can take care of the lost situation.
If you don’t believe in hard work, and don’t support your family, or pay taxes, you are a sorry excuse for a human. This does not apply to the sick and disabled.
I wish America would return to good work ethics, and throw in a few morals also.
“I wish America would return to good work ethics”
The unemployment rate is is 7.4%. That means – unless I know nothing about economics and labor statistics – that means 92.6% of people have jobs. It also means that the 7.4% of people who do not have work are looking for work.
Incidentally, comparing the unemployment rate for black male college graduates to that with white males who only completed high school is kind of revealing. Not a theological issue IMHO (hence my initial comment on this thread) but still rather interesting.
Job,
I’m no expert on this either, but I’m pretty sure it only counts people either working or actively seeking jobs, the actual labor force. If a person just stops looking for work, even though he or she is able to, they are no longer considered part of the unemployed.
Dave Miller,
First, I want to point out that I’m not a racist. I have no reason to be, I didn’t even grow up around black people. All the folks I hated were white people.
I would like to point out, that the parent has a God given right to approve or disapprove of who their children marry. You are trying to take away the right of a parent to bless the union of a marriage.
As a parent, I had strict standards as to whom my children was to marry.
Every parent who loves their children, also have mental standards as to who their children are to marry.
Black, white, I don’t care who or what color you are if you love your children, you have strict standards, at least mentally.
So, if someone who has a black child who wants to marry a white child,
Is it not the right of that parent to approve or disapprove of the marriage.
Living on love will starve you to death. A parent has a right to look at Christianity, career goals, back ground search, are they ready to start a home, and etc. The reason I used a parent who has a black child who wants to marry a white child, as an example, I have met black folks who would rather die than see their child marry a white person.
Dave, I think you are out in left field on this post. In my opinion prejudice works both ways, I personally have discovered that I have met more black folks that are prejudice than white folks. The black folks were more vocal about it.
You can call me insensitive if you want, but I judge a man by his character.
No, if you are saying, “my child cannot marry a black person,” you are not judging that person by their character but by the color of their skin.
Is that not the definition of prejudice?
Dave,
No, Leviticus, 19-19.
Daniel 2:43
Deut. 7:3-4
Acts 17:26
I Kings 11:1-43
Neh. 13:23-27
Jer. 2:21
There are many more scriptures just like these. What do you do with them.
Lev. 19:19 has nothing to do with marriage, and absolutely nothing to do with interracial marriage.
Daniel 2:43 is talking about the iron and clay of the vision Daniel had – nothing to do with marriage.
Deut. 7:3-4 prohibits Israelites (God’s people) from marrying Canaanites (pagan idol-worshippers). It has nothing to do with interracial marriage today. If you want to draw any conclusion (and even that is tenuous), perhaps you could see that as an admonition against marrying non-believers.
Acts 17:26 says that God made the nations and established them. It (again) says NOTHING about interracial marriage.
1 Kings 11 is about Solomon’s intermarriage with pagan women, and how it led him astray. NOTHING to do with marrying believers of other races.
Nehemiah 13:23-27 is also about Jews intermarrying with pagans (not with people of a certain skin color).
Jeremiah 2:21 talks about pure seed and defiled vines. Unless you want to make the argument that people of other races will defile the “purity” of the white race (an argument few since Hitler would espouse), then the verse has NOTHING to do with the argument.
There is not a single verse in the Bible that says that people of different skin colors should not marry.
This is DONE, JEss. If you are going to promote racialist nonsense here, I will shut this down.
Dave Miller,
I’m not promoting anything, I want to make this clear. The reason I posted these verses is because these are some of the very verses that racist use to promote their agenda. I wanted to give everyone an opportunity to comment on them.
I’m not afraid of scripture, and if you are not a racist, you shouldn’t be either.
Two times on SBC voices, I have proved my point with scripture, and you closed the thread. What are you afraid of here?
I personally believe that racism cannot be proven in the Bible,
and yet you got your bowels in an uproar.
Dave, you remind me of a bull I used to have, before a mountain lion ate him, I was able to hunt the mountain lion down, because he was so full and miserable all he would do is roar.
The moral is this, When you are full of bull it’s best to keep your mouth shut.
I personally would rather talk about all scripture and get it out there to determine what the Bible really says. Are you afraid of all scripture, Dave, I’m not.
I also had a reason to bring up the political aspect of racism,
because anyone who differs from your political views, you cannot stand them, and it’s the same way with your religious views. I voted for Obama, you didn’t. You tried to hide behind the Bible for your reasoning. The Republicans was trying to starve the poor and elderly to death, and you stood behind Romney because he was against abortion. Well, so am I. There is no difference in killing the poor and elderly, than killing babies. It’s all wrong (sin).
Dave, come off your high horse, you are speaking out both sides of your mouth and you cannot see it. That is what is so bad.
Jess,
I’m sure Dave has a tough skin and can handle the personal insults you’ve hurled his way. But in addition to those, brother you are so far off the scriptural reservation it’s scary. Racism can’t be proved in scripture? Count me amazed.
And politics. Republicans were trying to starve the poor and elderly to death? Really? Prove it. That bothers you, though its only in your mind, yet Obama clearly advocates killing partially born babies?
Man!
Dave has corrected your errors, Jess, beating me to the proverbial punch. Let me refer you to 2 Corinthians 4, if I might.
“Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man’s conscience in the sight of God.”
A word to the wise is sufficient.
Jess, life principle: If you have to start a comment with “I’m not a racist, but…” – it is generally best just not to share the comment.
Just a thought.
If, I started a comment in that form, I would not have shared that comment!
Your current comment at 6:43 (#106 right now) did.
Dave Miller,
I guess I’m going to Hell. There is no way I would approve of my daughter marrying someone of the Islamic, Buddhism, or any other of the mics, or isms, religion. Especially, someone from Joel Osteen’s church.
Dave Miller,
The last part of the paragraph, concerning Osteen’s members was a joke, I think! 🙂
Come on Jess. What the heck? Has anyone said anything about approving marriage with non-Christians? Why are you making this about anything other than race? If you disapprove of someone marrying outside his or her race, you are a racist. This has nothing to do with non-Christian religions.
It is indeed sad that Jess would equate being born a certain color as the same as being heretical and unsaved, at least as it relates to relationships with “white” Christians.
Bill Mac,
Did you not vote for a non-Christian.
Dave, this is a great article. It’s something I’ve voiced more than once to people I know in recent years. This article has spurred a new thought in this matter. Often we must set goals in order to achieve those goals. However, there is a biblical principle in which sometimes we must seek the opposite goal. The first shall be last and the last shall be first. This is often the case when there is a greater goal. For salvation, we must lose the life in this world to gain our life in the next. What ends up happening is that our life in the present reflects the life we are promised. But we can’t seek it as its own end.
The same is true of our political situation. When we make earthly political victory our goal, we ultimately lose. When we make citizenship in heaven our goal, we gain a greater outlook in our earthly civil relationships, even of those that are sour. Ultimately, we see God’s provision for the moment.
My family spent the past few weeks in Venezuela where food prices are through the roof and grocery lines resemble those of the old Soviet Union. Toilet paper is hard to come by. Meat is getting hard to find, and arepa flour is now in short supply. Things are getting worse quickly there. Nevertheless, the church we were with there is raising money to send missionaries to Africa and Europe even as they actively plant new churches in their city, one soul at a time. Church staff and elders all have disciples across town and are forming cell groups that will eventually become new churches. Despite how bad things are, they were glad that we saw how great God is among them and how Venezuela really wasn’t as bad as it surely seems to most Americans.
They have all the hope of our Father in heaven.
Just putting this out there…
If anyone who disagrees with their child marrying into another race is a racist, does this include someone who does not want to see their child discriminated against for that very interacial marriage?
If you mean to suggest a person who would disagree with their child marrying someone from another race because they want to protect them from any potential discrimination due to that marriage, then yes…That person still would be a racist. Far too many people, think racism is only KKK type hate. That misconception could not be further from the truth.
Les Prouty,
I can also handle the personal insults Dave has made toward me.
Other folks on SBC voices has handled the personal insults Dave has made about them too. We have learned it’s Dave’s way or no way.
Dave’s opinion or no opinion, Dave’s political agenda or no agenda.
I’m hanging in there for all those whose opinion don’t count because of the elite on SBC voices. Unless I get cut off first.
Les,
Only 5% of blacks make up the LDS church, Romney’s church, most of the black members live in Africa and Brazil. Look it up, I have nothing to hide. Yet, nearly all of you flocked to Romney.
What is so strange, I’m the one that has been called a racist. Unless attitudes change, and you guys don’t start following the Bible concerning issues that are dear to our hearts, and not the hearts of the elite, then sbc voices is just a joke.
Jess,
“Only 5% of blacks make up the LDS church, Romney’s church, most of the black members live in Africa and Brazil. Look it up, I have nothing to hide. Yet, nearly all of you flocked to Romney.”
And the % of blacks in the LDS means exactly what?
Jess, I’ve disclosed to no one for which candidate I voted. And a vote for someone other than Obama does not necessarily have anything to do with his race.
I would gather that LDS being only 5% African-American is more indicative of how gullible white people are than anything regarding racism.
Seriously, have you ever read some of the LDS documents and seen what they proclaim?
Yes, and it’s scary!
whaaaa……whaaaaa…..whaaaaaa…..
Play the victim much?
I find Dave to be fair and even handed with his blog. He appears to me to be very pleasant with all the posters here….that is until someone pushes him too far.
All that said, Voices is his ball field. If you, or I, or anyone else does not like the way he sets the game up…..then we are welcome to go play on another field where things are more to our liking.
No one makes you post here, Jess.
Just sayin’
I find Dave Miller to be fair, right on almost everything, and stunningly handsome with exquisite fashion sense.
Dave,
I do believe that you’re misquoting Tarheel, here, just a little bit.
lol
David
I was amplifying his comments to make them more accurate.
I was amplifying his comments to make them more accurate.
Twice.
DAVID MILLER in fine fettle on one of his better days:
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/03/18/article-1258796-08C42C56000005DC-689_233x407.jpg
Let’s not push our luck and stick with fair…OK?
Tarheel,
If this was Dave Millers site, I would have quit posting a long time ago.
I honestly thought it was the site of SBC Voices, and still do. I wish someone would correct me if I’m wrong. I thought Dave Miller only manages this site. If I’m wrong someone correct me.
The reason I stay on voices, is because of folks like you. I don’t need to venture any further than that.
Dave is the manager, editor-in-chief, and whatever other title is appropriate for this blog.
So, while there are a great many people who contribute and someone else who pays the bills, Dave is the top dog in the operation.
Doug Hibbard,
Thank you so much for the information, I honestly didn’t know.
Dave Miller,
I’m sorry for commenting on your web site. This site is not for someone like me, because I’m not a puppet. I will not be back on here.
Jess, you are welcome to comment, but when you spout opinions such as you have, expect us to vigorously challenge them.
It is your call.
Jess, most of us hack back and forth on various issues. Including a few off-web fussings that make this all look like a cake walk.
So don’t get that way about it–we’re grown ups here and can handle it.
People like me? Oh, please enlightn me as to;
1) what dies that mean?
2) how did I get so much power over you to be able to keep you around???
I reckon every thing on this thread will all come out in the washing.
CB,
We ALL know that you’re not a racist, and you were in no way promoting that women be dragged around by their hair. This is laughable, if it weren’t so slanderous. I know that you would be standing beside Dwight to fight against TRUE RACISM, as I pray that the Lord would help me to do the same. It’s just a shame that someone would come into a public forum and lambast and insult and slander you with just plain ole nonsense. I’m sorry that it’s happening to you, Brother. Just know that the rest of us don’t give any wieght to the silly things that are being said against you.
Love ya, Brother.
David
And here I thought the spiritual gift of discernment was to discern false teachers instead of rooting out (supposed) hidden sin in others…
To all it may concern, CB Scott has a major problem, I have spoken to him about it, but he is too hard headed to listen, and it’s his own fault. You see, he tells the truth too much. Stop it! CB.
Basically, this article is saying that we can’t go back to the Christian foundation of our forefathers because it might offend someone, even though it was the moral foundation of Christianity that spurred the Civil War which ended slavery in the U.S. It’s important to note that slavery existed world-wide; it was not isolated to the American colonies alone. Slavery, as with all sin, has been a part of the world since The Fall. Restoring a biblical worldview in American leaders is not synonymous to restoring slavery to our economic system. To make this claim is an informal fallacy called post hoc ergo propter hoc or faulty cause/effect (X happened then Y happened; therefore, X caused Y).
Dave is the site manager. I have found him to be pretty even handed. Once in a while, he sounds off, but generally I have found him to be within the parameters of social and Christian discourse even when he is sounding off. Anybody stop to think that future scholars might well be mining our comments on this blog for their projects of evaluation and summation of the period in which we live?
It’s my fault….I’m sorry y’all…..apparently “folks like me” is who keeps Jess around…and apparently it’s my fault he is espousing what he is espousing too.
Dave, your post makes a very good point, one that ought to sink down into our ears (and hearts). Our past has not been idyllic or Utopian. Restoring “that” would be detrimental to many people.
I would add also that even if our past had been idyllic and Utopian, it has never been our calling and commission to “restore” any nation, but to be our own “nation” (people) bringing forth fruits (Matt. 21:43). Our calling is, in a nutshell, Matthew 28:18-20.
I’m hoping that I get to eat some cornbread tonight, if my sweet Baby will cook it….she cooks it, real good. Afterwards, it’d be good to slice open a Missouri Watermelon from the Bootheel….they’re the best. Also, it’d be nice to have some sweet tea, and pork chops and pinto beans to go along with that cornbread. My wife is a great cook, and she likes to take care of me. She loves spending time in the kitchen, and I am thankful.
And, that’s the way it is in the South…in my home….and, there’s nothing racist about that….and, there’s nothing sexist about that….
Wow….maybe we can all get back to dealing with REAL RACISM in the future.
David
Hush, Volfan. You are making me homesick for Arkansas, right across the St. Francis River from the Bootheel of Mo. My uncle whom I won to Christ lived in Kennett. His funeral was on my birthday back in ’93 (I think) and his wife, died on my spiritual birthday, in ’98 or ’97.
Dr. Willingham,
My Momma was from Portageville, MO, and I have some kin in Caruthersville, MO, too.
BTW, I’m guessing that you know that Sheryl Crow is from Kennett?
David
Just when Volfan and I were getting along.
Cornbread: Ugh
Watermelon: Fantastic. This has been a good year for watermelon.
Sweet tea: Ugh. Unsweetened is the only way to go.
Porkchops: So so. Beef beats pork except at breakfast.
Pinto beans: Ugh. Go for sweet corn instead.
Bill Mac: It is evident that you never ate any of my wife’s cornbread. It was even better than my Grandma’s, and you know that is saying a lot. I really prefer navy beans or great Northerns to pintos though even they taste good. Watermelon I like and sweet tea. Can’t stand it unsweetened. I stick to 1% or skim milk and water (ice). The latter is addictive, I do believe. Meats of practically any kind are good. Of course, I love steaks. My Great Grandpappy was a cowboy and went up and down the Chisum trail (I know how it is really spelled anyhow) 5-6 times…etc.
Dr. J. Here in the north we sweeten the cornbread and don’t sweeten the tea.
Harken the words of the great theologian, Mark Lowry: “Don’t put sugar in your cornbread, that is not of God. Sugar in the cornbread is cake. Put the sugar in the tea, where it belongs.”
From one of his videos, back in the 90s, I think. 🙂
Amen, Mark Lowery! Amen!
David
How sad! Missing out on the best fateners,
To Doug: And tell my wife that? I will not take my life in my hands and put it to such a risk, not to a relative of folks who fought on both sides of the Hatfields/McCoys feud. Besides I found I liked my wife’s cornbread better than Grandma’s though Grandma could make better Chocolate Gravy any day of the week. It left you with that warm, smooth feeling, when you went off to school, making everything just right.
Dr. J,
Wise the man who does not disturb home over such matters.
no like cornbread?
try adding a cup of sour cream and a small can of creamed corn to your recipe . . . it makes the favor and texture so much better!
wait a minute . . . VOLFAN . . . aren’t you on the challenge diet?
and you are going after cornbread and porkchops? sugar in your tea?
oy
My family (grandmother, grandfather & greats) were driven like cattle, fed that which is and was not fit to be called food. We had land that we had lived on for hundreds of years taken from us. The army laid in wait and ambushed women and children, killing all living. Forced to live in abject poverty in camps that were but makeshift tents. Yet, most of us have forgiven the white eyes, to some extent. But as the Jews say “never again”.
I have met some whites even today that deserve a good ……whatever.
“America has perpetrated unspeakable evil on some, seemingly without conscience, and while still describing ourselves as “Christian America”. We treated the Native Americans despicably. We invoked God’s name to justify brutalizing them, calling our nearly genocidal actions a “Manifest Destiny.” Our “great” nation did great evil. The Trail of Tears is an historical fact.”
Dear Jeff: My paternal family comes from the same tribe, but I have learned that the American Indians can enter into the White society and pass without any great problems. We had an American Indian lady in the last church we attended before the move to our son’s church, and she had a Master’s in Science and was head of a lab. doing experiments with stem cells (one’s own stem cells – not those of aborted infants) with a view to growing organs to replace those that are diseased, etc. They had just made the transition from animal experiments to humans, when the outfit let her go in favor of someone cheaper. Being a woman of great grace, she took it in good stride, trusting that God had some other plan for her. Another Indian lady, I knew founded a Baptist church and gave it to Southern Baptists who told her that it would never be acknowledged that she founded the church. They date the church from the day they got possession of it, when even the building indicates that it is older. I have to laugh. She even preached Sovereign Grace, and one Sovereign Grace preacher even preached a revival for her. What a hoot!
I, like many, am of Cherokee (or one of the other tribes) and European ancestry. There are also many who are of Cherokee and African ancestry. I daresay most Americans are not pure-bred anything. To which ethnicity do we hold allegiance? The most recent perpetrators or the most recent victims? Yet all have perpetrated against another and all have been victimized by another to one degree or another.
Better, is it not, that we hold allegiance to the Kingdom of Heaven, whose victory is the righteousness of Christ, for none are innocent of his blood, yet all who have faith are forgiven and given citizenship in that Kingdom: a holy people set aside for the glory of God.