Dean is a pastor at LaBelle Haven Baptist Church in Olive Branch, Mississippi.
There are a few attitudes and actions that take place in the SBC that kind of make me feel like a dinosaur. I am comfortable with being a dinosaur and do not feel the need to fight to keep things the way I prefer them. I have developed a ministry philosophy and carved out my niche so I put my head down and attempt to remain faithful.
One of the attitudes that make me feel outmoded will be on display this week. It has become fashionable to ridicule Independence Day celebrations that take place in churches. One of the components to my philosophy is having several key events a year that puts your church on center stage in your community/area. Many times these events can be evangelistic endeavors, however, they can also be a way to introduce the people of your community to your church family as they attend a celebration or activity. An Independence Day celebration is a perfect event to accomplish this second goal. For this reason, I still use Independence Day celebrations. This Sunday we will have a blowout celebrating the 4th of July.
- Our music ministry will perform a patriotic musical.
- At one point in the musical, our preschoolers and young children will have a parade through the sanctuary in patriotic costumes.
- Our facilities will be decorated in patriotic colors and our congregation will wear red, white, and blue.
- We will have a color guard and the congregation will wave American flags throughout the service.
- We will have memorabilia tables in our atrium in honor of our service men and women.
- We will have Squire Parsons in concert that afternoon followed by a free barbeque picnic on our parking lot. We will have water slides and activities for the children.
A good Independence Day celebration takes a tremendous amount of planning, work, and expense. For this reason alone I understand not every pastor/staff would want to tackle such an endeavor. My plans are to continue to have such services in the future and I have some good reasons why.
- I am grateful for America. America is not a good country, America is a great country. I Thessalonians 5:18 says, “In all things give thanks.” I believe it is not only appropriate, it is mandated we thank God for our nation. America is not a perfect country but America is a nation blessed by God. Traveling in other parts of the world will make you thank God for America when you arrive on her shores. Once a year I enjoy incorporating thanking God for America into our worship service.
- It teaches our young people to love America. My perception is young people are being indoctrinated with anti-American thoughts. I constantly hear about what is wrong with America. For example, at the same time Americans protest that our nation desires to be isolationists and that we desire to police the world. It is not uncommon for our young people to hear teachers in high school and professors in college speak poorly of America. Do a search for retired Univesity of Hawaii professor Haunani-Kay Trask and read of her hatred for America. This hatred was taught in her classrooms as she railed against America claiming America was her enemy. Every day there seems to be a demonstration somewhere in America about what we are doing wrong as a nation. Again, once a year I enjoy incorporating a patriotic theme so our young people can celebrate what is right with America.
- It allows us to honor those who have served in our nation’s military. The goal of any worship service should be to glorify Jesus Christ. However, it is not sinful to honor someone for their service to our nation’s citizens. On Sunday we will provide individual tables for those who have served in any branch of our nation’s armed forces. These tables will be covered with pictures, award ribbons, and gear from their time in the service. Our church family and guests will walk around the atrium before church on Sunday morning taking in these images and thanking the ones who have served.
- My town embraces patriotic services. Seeing how I am relatively new at my current place of service I have to defer to my staff for this information. When I shared with the staff my desire to continue the patriotic service they had conducted in the past the results were mixed. It is so much work to put on a quality event they thought about the added workload they would have. Then the unanimous conclusion was reached that it is worth the effort. This Sunday, during our worship service, we will have one of our largest crowds all year. There will be dozens of guests both in the morning service and at the concert and picnic. We will make new friends and gather new names as contacts. It is my past experience that this is normal where churches have such celebrations.
I have heard reasons why people are opposed to such celebrations. That is a post for someone else to write. I have shared why I have such celebrations and I anticipate a great day Sunday. Happy Independence Day to you all.
Let the fireworks begin. I fall in between the extremes on both sides. I don’t mind some honoring of America, but there is a danger in my mind in it. I’ve seen it go too far. The display at FBC Dallas last week was garish to me. I was talking to a missionary friend of mine and he told me that Americans are unique in that our love of country is unrivaled in other nations, from his experience. That is a good thing, because I agree with Dean that our nation is unique, great, and blessed. But there is a… Read more »
“Dean is pastor at LaBelle Haven Baptist Church in Olive Branch, Mississippi.” Out of respect to Dr. Jim Butler I want to offer a clarification. Bro. Jim is retiring at the end of this year. LaBelle called me to be their next pastor in July of 2016. I have served along beside Bro. Jim for the last year, learning the Labelle way. He has left the decision making and leading the ministries up to me for the most part but he is still seen as the senior pastor until his retirement. We split the preaching responsibilities. This unusual endeavor may… Read more »
I actually had “a pastor” and then changed it. I wasn’t sure how to write that.
Write it as – “Pastor in waiting”.
😉
LOL
Dean, interested to see what your thoughts would be on, for example, a church in France who does something similar related to French patriotism, or Japan, or Egypt. Do you think that would be a good idea for those churches?
To take it a step farther, let’s say you were on vacation in one of those countries and happened to visit the church on the Sunday that was taking place. What would your reaction be? Honestly curious, these are not rhetorical questions.
BAM!!!
Brent, I was in Russia one year when they were celebrating Victory Day. This celebration is May 9 and marks the time when Germany surrendered to Russia. That day everyone and I mean everyone sang patriotic songs, they had skits and plays, released balloons. I preached that day with a parachurch organizations. I didn’t feel left out. I didn’t feel abused. I have no issues with Christians in other nations thanking God for their country. I state again, the goal of any service is to glorify Jesus.
That’s a fair response. Do you feel like Jesus was glorified in that service or did it seem like he was pushed to the periphery and another bond was highlighted?
He was not pushed in the periphery at all. The people that I kept company with were very much grateful to God they were not speaking German. Having witnessed German soldiers march through their homeland they honestly worshipped God for the victory. I ask a question, is it appropriate to thank God for America? If you answer yes, then is that only appropriate in a private, personal setting?
Dean,
Good article. And, I agree.
David R. Brumbelow
Baptists need to appreciate their deep heritage of contributions to the core principles that makes the US so unique in the world. At its beginning, particularly during the writing of the constitution is was Baptists who pressured James Madison to put the ‘separation’ clause in the constitution. Thomas Jefferson needed to Baptist support to advance in his political career. Those Baptist, then, new exactly the confusion of mixing loyalties with the gospel of Jesus Christ and to a nation. The United States has at its core the value of ‘liberty’ because those Baptists knew exactly Who it was that gave… Read more »
You and I totally disagree on the purpose of the church and trust me its a large chasm. The purpose of the church is for the people of God to come together as the unique people of God to worship and adore our Creator, Savior and Friend. I am all for being thankful of being an American, but those type celebrations better belong in a city park and not mingled amongst the worship of God (which is not leavened with your man made rally for America). It is this very thing which causes Muslims to understand Chriatianity as an American… Read more »
Glenn, I appreciate your position. We are not on two different planets, however, I am not ashamed.
Shame is not something you have the authority to ascribe, Glenn, that is the purview of the Holy Spirit.
Having been a part of a very multi-ethnic and multicultural church while in seminary I was happy to see that we worshipped Christ on days that our government deemed national patriotic holidays. I had heard from fellow church members, many who were from South America and Africa, that they were amazed that they found one church in all of Louisville that wasn’t so nationalistic and idolatrous when it came to patriotism. They were relieved to find that they could worship God with fellow American Christians and not feel ostracized. They shared experiences with me that while they were in college… Read more »
Quadruple BAM!!!
“Bam” is unnecessary and unhelpful.
Let’s make arguments as brethren in Christ. Keep it civil, okay?
(I understand you are just giving a form of amen, but this is one of those topics that tends to get out of control. Bam is a kind of confrontational response. I am trying to keep the cattle in the corral rather than rounding them up after they’ve broken down the fences and scattered – if you understand my metaphor).
Geez Dean, Those quotation marks you referenced were not attributing exact words to you – they were instead making reference to the gist of your comments / but you knew that. Nice try. In your article you came out looking to be “ridiculed” by your “it’s fashionable to ridicule people who …” (or did you not say that word either?). Look. You wrote a provocative piece about intermingling patriotism with a worship – you then made several provocative statements concerning how you don’t enjoy recitations in Worship services – singled out the Apostles Creed with adamant language (“it won’t happen… Read more »
Seriously. I would love to be there. Sounds like a great worship experience
Thanks Glenn, you’re more than welcome to come by anytime! FBC Willow Springs, 402 North Harris Street, Willow Springs, Mo. 🙂
Dave,
I agree.
“Bam” is emblematic of the spirit that permeates many of our discussions. Particularly the ones on race, gender, immigration, and nationalism.
I find it used many times by young people as a method of rebuking elders.
If attitudes like this fester and grow, the amount of force and conformity that will be seen in the SBC in the future will be unreal.
James, with the exception of the Apostles’ Creed your worship service sounds amazing. I am sure all who attend will be blessed.
Dean
What in the Apostles Creed do you disagree with?
Thanks
Thanks Dean, I am curious though why you object to the recitation of the Apoatkes Creed?
I am totally against the recitation of the Apoatkes Creed.
James, I simply do not care to recite the Apostle’s Creed in worship. I’m not of fan of any recitations in worship service.
I do want to add that LaBelle is a multi-ethnic, multi-cultural congregation.
Oh, so it is about a preference – the objection to recitations?
Friend, I must say – I find it a little troubling that you are not a fan of reciting a theological statement in worship services – but have expressed great willingness to recite patriotic statements songs and pledges in worship services.
Not trying to be combative – just pointing that out. 🙂
I don’t want to assume things, but it’s just strange that you are fine having an patriotic service but you don’t like reciting the Apostles Creed in a church service. Maybe we just have different experiences. I don’t know….
Dave: Please amend my comment. LOL. I have fat fingers and typed that on my iPhone. Hahaha.
Dave prefers to recite the Apostate’s Creed.
Lol!
Are you kidding? Edit and give up the fun?
I think not.
Tarheel, no where have I written we will recite patriotic statements or pledges. If you are going to point stuff out then actually point out stuff I say – not to be combative.
Dean,
Do you as a church also not use the responsive readings usually found in the Baptist Hymnal? I just want to understand why reciting things in church is something you’re against.
Dean,
“We will have a color guard and the congregation will wave American flags throughout the service.”
Most of the time a colorguard is accompanied with the Star-Spangled Banner and the Pledge of Allegiance… So I met I did make an assumption based on customer practice… But if you’re not going to sing the Star-Spangled Banner (which is itself a pledge of sorts) or recite the actual pledge of allegiance then I retract my “pointing out”… LOL ?
* …admit that I did make an assumption based on customary practice…
* The final? Was supposed to be a laughing emoji… But I forgot that such are banned on the site…
James, because I don’t enjoy something doesn’t mean I am against it. We do not use the responsive readings in our services.
Dean,
Will your church be reciting the Pledge of Allegiance during your Independence Day service
Tarheel, we will recite the Pledge of Allegiance, we will sing the national anthem. We will not recite any other patriotic statements. The National Anthem is not a pledge; it is a song. I don’t like recitations. We do not use any recitations at any other time of the year and under no circumstances will I allow the Apostle’s Creed to be recited in a worship service of a church I pastor.
Ok, Dean.
Just so I understand….you don’t like corporate theological recitations in church worship services ever – under any circumstances – but once a year you encourage and participate in corporate recitations of allegiance to America/the American flag. Right?
Tarheel, your statement is pretty close to accurate. Allow me to clarify, I may experience a theological recitation one day that I enjoy in a worship service but I am not fond of what I have experienced in recitations. I do not need recitations to teach or enforce theology. I spend 52 weeks of the year teaching verse by verse through books of the Bible. I provide weekly study guides and complete booklets of the studies when I finish the series for our church family. You seem to want to paint a picture that somehow I am more interested in… Read more »
Dean of course I do not think you value patriotism over theology – but your post and comments here indicate that on this Sunday you will in fact do recitations in your worship service – but they will be patriotic recitations. So again – it is not recitations that you oppose in worship service because you will do patriotic recitations in your service. I am not being uncharitable – even you said my understanding was correct before you made accusations toward me. Dean, you plainly said you have never enjoyed a recitation in worship – and even said recitations (the… Read more »
Tarheel, you certainly are pointing something out but it has nothing to do with me. Let’s review in order, I say, “under no circumstances will I allow the Apostle’s Creed to be recited in a worship service of a church I pastor.” You say, “you don’t like corporate theological recitations in church worship services ever – under any circumstances” I didn’t say this. I say, “I may experience a theological recitation one day that I enjoy in a worship service but I am not fond of what I have experienced in recitations.” You say, “you plainly said you have never… Read more »
Dean,
Why will you never allow the recitation of the Apostles Creed in your church then? Is it because you find it’s theology wrong, not applicable to the Church, or inadequate? When you say you’ll never allow it that just gives the impression that you think it’s totally wrong. Am I misrepresenting you?
James, there is not a thing inadequate about the Apostles’ Creed. It is the list of our great doctrines. You guys are searching for something that isn’t there. I simply don’t care to use it as a recitation. I apologize, let me restate my initial statement to you, your service sounds great. I would love to be there.
Ok. You don’t like recitations in worship service. I’m with you. EXCEPT clearly you like and enjoy one recitation enough to do it yearly in what you call an Independence Day worship service (allegiance to American Flag) … I’m Assuming that you don’t do this recitation also on memorial day and/or veterans …. but have now said multiple times that you’d never (under any circumstances) use the apostles creed in a worship service… It’s not that I think you value patriotism over theology… I really don’t think that… But that is what is coming across from what you’re actually saying.… Read more »
I think I’ve said enough in this particular string of comments on this article.
I do respect you, Dean. I don’t want you to think otherwise. We disagree and that’s OK.
You appreciate intertwining patriotism and worship – I don’t.
As I said earlier I’m not at the point where I’m adamantly opposed to The type of service that you speak of in your opening post… But I’m getting more and more close to being so.
I said earlier and I repeat – Dean, I don’t think you seek to devalue theology in any way whatsoever.
Ok guys I will take a stab at the subject of reciting the Apostles Creed. I believe every word of it, I even taught a series in Sunday School on the creed. However, most run of the mill Baptists are non credal, and reciting such things is more in keeping with the reformers and the old mainline denominations. It has not historically been a normal practice for Baptists. Not saying it’s wrong, just saying I can understand Dean’s reticence to employ it in his services.
Tarheel, there is no doubt in my mind you read my message in this post and stream as I prefer patriotism over theology.
Well – considering you came into this thread “looking to be ridiculed”… I can see how you might view it that way…
But I’ve never said that – in fact I’ve repeatedly said the opposite.
Good night.
Tarheel, you use quotes, “looking to be ridiculed.” Please share where I said that. Again you don’t mind making up statements and attributing them to your brothers.
John, That makes sense to me. Thanks for that input, I forget that the Southern Baptist church I was raised in was a little more liturgical than most Southern Baptist churches are. Reciting the Apostles Creed is something I grew up with and have included into my own ministry. Dean, In no way was I looking for anything that wasn’t there. I was just looking for specific clarification on why you wouldn’t allow the Apostles Creed to be recited in your church. You’ve given me your answer and I respect it. I’m glad you and I can agree together that… Read more »
( I put this in the wrong place above) Geez Dean, Those quotation marks you referenced were not attributing exact words to you – they were instead making reference to the gist of your comments / but you knew that. Nice try. In your article you came out looking to be “ridiculed” by your “it’s fashionable to ridicule people who …” (or did you not say that word either?). Look. You wrote a provocative piece about intermingling patriotism with a worship – you then made several provocative statements concerning how you don’t enjoy recitations in Worship services – singled out… Read more »
Tarheel, thank you for giving me the last word. I would like to take the opportunity of using the last word to say “you stink.”
As a 17 year US Navy vet, that, by the way, was actually stationed in Yokosuka (pronounced Y-AH-KOOSKA), Japan, I, sir, SALUTE YOU!
Was also stationed in Bremerton, San Diego, Norfolk. And I am proud to be an American. I love the Flag for which I pledge Allegiance to, and did so since I was a child in school.
I do not see any conflict with being nationalistic as well as being a member of the Kingdom of God. There are plenty of bible verses regarding a nation that God blesses, and how to maintain those blessings.
Ed Chapman
Our song leader was on the 1st wave going onto to the beaches of Iwo Jima during WW II. He was 22 years old. When he was leaving the ship to enter the fight he prayed, “Lord, if I make it through this alive I will serve you the rest of my life.”
He has stayed true to that prayer. He helped build the Church by hand and still leads the singing.
Many have prayed that prayer. Few have honored it.
Now that is powerful!! Amen!
I would have no problem visiting a Baptist church in another country that was having a patriotic service. I’d find it interesting. Be thankful for what you have. And, to use a word I haven’t heard in a while, wouldn’t that be missional? A patriotic service in another country just might help that church reach more of the locals. “The Star-Spangled Banner” is number 644 in the Baptist Hymnal, 2008 edition. “O Canada!” is number 647. I have no problem with both being in our Hymnal. If I pastored a Baptist church in Bolivia, I’d be happy to have the… Read more »
David
Just because they are in the hymnal does not mean that they are worthy to be sung in worship.
The word “worship” means that we are ascribing glory and honor to something greater than ourselves. The songs we sing should proclaim something great about God (His glory or Attributes) or the Atonement.
I did not mean for the BAM comments to be contentious just agreeing with what the write of that section was stating. Correction accepted. Thank you
I added an edit to my comment, even before I saw this. I understand.
I have a lot of experience with certain subjects. I am trying the “never smile till Thanksgiving” tactic (if you know what I’m talking about) – sit on the discussion early and hope it holds. I’ve seen discussions such as these get really bad.
I am not completely opposed to patriotic services. However, I was in church one memorial day weekend when the worship leader announced that we would be singing all patriotic songs. I left feeling that I had gathered to worship America, not God. My largest concern is people equating love for/pride in America with love for God. I think some people think those are the same things or that one flows from the other.
One thing that I haven’t seen in comments yet, was the mention of the DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE, which is the ONLY reason for July 4th celebrations.
God is mentioned in that document that we have God given rights. So to say that there is a conflict, I don’t see it.
Our founders did not seem to see a conflict. It was both one in the same, to them.
Respectfully,
Ed Chapman
I read an interesting book a while back that showed (and some historian-types can weigh in here) that during the time of the Declaration, deism ruled the day, which is why the references to God are so impersonal.
By the time that the Constitution was written, the 2nd Great Awakening had begun to take hold and there were different people who had become influential, giving a much more Christian (not exactly evangelical, but Christian) cast to the constitution.
Jefferson, the main author of the Declaration, was most certainly a deist, hence the language you cite. Of the two other more influential contributing authors, Benjamin Franklin had a rather loose relationship with Christianity, whereas John Adams would be considered more in line with orthodox Christianity.
I would say two things, relative to this topic, without opining on Dean’s piece or his position. 1. This subject is going to be one of the biggest issues in the SBC in the days ahead. “How should American Christians balance being American and Christian?” 2. This has already been the most divisive issue in the SBC in a long time. The Russell Moore/Jack Graham kerfuffle was largely rooted in attitudes toward the place of patriotism and nationalism in the life of the church and the Christian. This isn’t going away. It behooves us to deal BIBLICALLY with this topic… Read more »
Oh, it’s going away.
I would say that a good perspective on this could be found in Chris Davis’ sermon from the SBCPC17. He preached on Philippians 1:27-30. The intro, setting the context of Paul’s admonition regarding Philippian citizenship/pride and Kingdom citizenship (#venndiagram), is worth the listen…and so is his entire message for that matter.
What is this SBCPC17 of which you speak?
It was this deal where people came together and listened to some guys talk about things and stuff.
I was just thinking about that as I was reading the comments, Scott.
That message was powerful. He dealt exactly what what is being discussed here.
Dean, one other question came to mind… Is there a limit to the amount of patriotic content you’d find acceptable in a service or do you see it as fine to have basically the whole service oriented around the patriotic holiday? For example the FBC Dallas worship service singing “This Land Is Your Land”. Anything wrong with that or you say go for it?
Am I the only one who wonders if the good members of FBC, along with Jeffress and the other leaders, sang that with their backs towards the Rio Grande? Or is that going too far? If so then I apologize, but their blatant political involvement invites certain levels of scrutiny.
I can’t speak intelligently on what FBC needs to sing but I would offer no objection to LaBelle singing Woody Guthrie’s song. Our entire service will be patriotic oriented.
“This Land is your Land” should never be sung by any freedom loving person. But it’s such a catchy and fun tune, we sing it. Read the verses sometime and read about the author, and you’ll catch my drift.
Oh, here we go. I predicted a few years ago that the topic of patriotism in the American evangelical church (specifically sbc) would come to the forefront soon. Dean- thank you for a well written article. Kudos to you. Everyone else- we really don’t want to go here on this subject. It’s a lose lose!!! Nothing can be gained from it. But, I’ll have my say and be done with it: Are there those who worship the flag-yes and it should be called out if it is extreme. As nice as I can say it- give me a break if… Read more »
Dean, I feel ya bro! I do not think you are “sinning” or wrong headed on this issue of patriotic services (although I am confused as yo why you seemed to poo poo the Apostles Creed…but that is another discussion). I am just coming to the point where I disagree. I used to not…I used to defend these types of services when I was an associate pastor and we had them…but for the last several years….I have been moving away from the idea you posited above. I find myself not yet dogmatic on the issue (but you know me –… Read more »
Coming from a military aspect, as I was, we owe respect to that country that we are in. Being stationed in Japan, we, US military saluted Japanese Officers. That is protocol. No matter what nation, if they are in uniform, we respect their culture and salute foreign officers. In the morning when Colors was presented at the military base, BOTH the Japanese, and the America national anthems were heard over the loud speakers. Same was when I was in Sigonella Italy. Both the Italian and the American anthems were played over the loud speakers. It’s all a sign of respect,… Read more »
That didn’t happen during a church service, though. Military Protocol =/= Worship Service.
Have you been to a church service on Base before? American Flag, Navy Flag in the church. And yes, we would still salute all officers when in uniform, regardless of what the location was. Except, I think, the restroom
Ed Chapman
Again I’m not speaking of saluting and appropriate respect and protocol. No problem. What I’m strictly speaking of is the songs we sing, and the observances we make, and the overall emphasis of the service. It’s one of those things where you say, “what’s too much?” The answer is, “I don’t know, but I know it when I see it.” You yourself will know it when you see it. Or should, and that’s what this discussion is for.
I can’t imagine someone asking how much is too much on the 4th of July.
Isn’t there some point at which the veneration of America takes away our focus on the worship of Christ? Becomes idolatrous?
Dave, I don’t believe so. As I mentioned earlier in my beliefs regarding the Declaration of Independence, God is a focal point outside of the other grievances that it outlines. They left the Church of England in order to worship God based on individual conscience, and not that of another conscience or state government. God was always a focal point in our founders mind, especially when it came to morality, that you cannot separate religion from it. To them, it was all one in the same. Our founder’s had God in mind. Secularists are the ones who separate those two… Read more »
If you are talking about the celebration of the holiday, fine. If you are talking about taking worship time to celebrate America instead of the Cross, that becomes more problematic. I don’t think they have to be 100% exclusive, but a service that is all about America may be pushing the limits.
Aren’t the patriotic hymns mostly songs of thanksgiving to God and asking God to bless (shed his grace) our nation?
Amen, Todd
Believe it or not, there are many Christians in our Armed Forces. Five minutes before Taps, the chaplain would say a prayer over the 1MC (Our loud speaker) on the ship. Not just on Sunday, but nightly.
My pastor removed the American flag from the sanctuary and lost members over it. And my experience in a few different churches and some conversations with members of other churches has led me to conclude that there are a lot of Christians who conflate the country with the kingdom and conflate whatever America does as godly, and that the Armed forces are always doing godly work and that our soldiers, God bless them all, are all saved and heroes of the faith. Now that is an over generalization for sure, but the I do believe there is a core of… Read more »
Why did you only partially recite the Declaration of Independence? There is a spot that you missed that the 3 rights that you mention are rights that cannot be taken away by man.
Life is not man given right.
Liberty is not a man given right
And, the word that was debated originally was virtue, but finally decided upon was the pursuit of happiness.
Those rights cannot be taken away by man in this nation.
inalienable right
Defined:
rights that cannot be repealed or restrained by human laws
Ed, You asked why I said what I did. Fair question. As a Christian, a servant of the King, you and I are to be willing to give up any earthly rights we might think we possess for the Kingdom. Whoever seeks to save their life will lose it. Thus a man made document saying that our Creator has given us rights is just: man made. As Christians we are to look beyond this world and the comforts therein to the world beyond. Thus we are to live under a greater standard than the US Constitution and the Bill of… Read more »
Well said, Mike. Hard to add anything to that. (but of course I will later *grin*)
This is the CODE for OFFICIAL American Flag use
“When displayed from a staff in a church or public auditorium, the flag of the United States of America should hold the position of superior prominence, in advance of the audience, and in the position of honor at the clergyman’s or speaker’s right as he faces the audience. Any other flag so displayed should be placed on the left of the clergyman or speaker or to the right of the audience.”
Let me be blunt here:
Only the Lord and His word should “hold the position of superior prominence” in a worship service!
See, this is exactly why we need to have this discussion.
Tarheel,
You had said:
“Only the Lord and His word should “hold the position of superior prominence” in a worship service!”
My response:
The Flag Code is:
Title 4, United States Code
It is federal law
Ed,
Don’t you see that the Kingdom of the USA is in direct conflict with the Kingdom of God?
I don’t care one snit what federal flag code is when it comes to the church.
I am talking about John 1, Ephesians chapters 1,4,5 & Colossians 1 all of which identify Christ as the preeminent one and the head of the sole church.
I stand by my statement. Unequivocally.
For clarity I’ll state again what I said earlier:
” Only the Lord and His word should “hold the position of superior prominence” in a worship service!”
*sole head of the church
Ed,
Let me be blunt here. No flag will ever take a prominent position in any church I pastor.
Are you implying that the federal government is telling us to worship the flag?
Tarheel,
AMEN!
Our American flag and Christian flag are both on the right side of the speaker. I can’t offhand think of which one has superior prominence. I’m not convinced the “Christian flag” is even a big thing, but if you’re going to have both in church, it seems only proper that the Christian flag takes prominence.
I’m glad that you mentioned that, because in the federal law, there is mention of the Church flag that is hoisted up while at sea, as well.
We have many many flags of all sorts to let other ships know what we are doing without needing to email them, or calling them on the phone.
Church flag is one of them.
“It has become fashionable to ridicule Independence Day celebrations that take place in churches.”
I don’t want to dwell on this, because I doubt you meant it the way I am hearing it, and I also don’t want to make a big deal about it, but most of these guys (like myself) won’t have Independence services NOT because it is “fashionable” or “cool”, but out of conviction.
Tyler, not having a patriotic service is not equal with ridiculing Independence Day celebrations.
It is fashionable to ridicule pastors and churches today who have such celebrations.
“Ridicule” sure, but it is absolutely legitimate to question the legitimacy of it if it and whether or not it is best for the church.
Again, I don’t think your equating criticism with ridicule, but guys (like myself) have strong convictions about this. I don’t think that’s a bad thing.
Who has ridiculed you here, Dean?
Several have made comments conveying that while we disagree we don’t think you an apostate or a sinner….
So I’m at a loss to see this alleged “fashionable ridicule” directed toward you.
Heel, Tyler was speaking to my opening statements in the post where I said it has become fashionable to ridicule patriotic services. He answered that not having a patriotic service to some is not fashionable but is a conviction. I pointed out correctly that not having a patriotic service is not equal to ridiculing those who do. My point to him is that him not having a service is not what I meant was fashionable. With a simple search you can find dozens of current articles around the Christian blog world ridiculing patriotic services. No one had ridiculed me here… Read more »
Is this issue black and white? Is it not a classic, “meat sacrificed to idols” issue?
Certainly, there are lines that should not be crossed, and they will be crossed in some churches this Sunday. But isn’t okay for one church to have the flag and another not to? Isn’t it okay for one church to sing a few patriotic songs, as long as it is clear that the Kingdom is the Lord’s and that the gospel is for the world and God loves all, not just Americans, and another church to ignore the holiday altogether?
I think as you said Dave, it’s a “meat sacrificed to idols” issue. Therefore if patriotic services get in the way of another person worshiping the Lord, wouldn’t it behoove us to avoid it?
Jim, I have never, ever had a person in my congregation get upset about patriotic services. I’ve seen them enraged because the holiness of patriotism was questioned.
Now, granted, here in Iowa, our congregation is not exactly international. Context.
Dave Miller,
I have pastored in GA, VA, and NC and the enragement comes here too, when “Merca is not “properly” acknowledged.
*Inquiring minds want to know is it now proper protocol to identify you as “Former President Miller”?
Me thinks Mr. Miller has got it. I think it certainly is a “meat sacrificed to idols” kind of thing….we ought to be careful force our free conscience opinion and conviction upon one another to harshly. As I said while I am leaning towards it – I am one who doesn’t yet completely ignore it in worship service – yet we don’t heavily celebrate it in worship service either. We have a special bulletin that makes reference to independence day….I might or might not mention it at the beginning of service by encouraging our people to express thankfulness to God… Read more »
Dave, I agree with your thoughts here, it is a meat sacrificed to idols issue. We have members from all over the globe – Korea, Philippines, Nigeria, Central America, East Germany to name places I am certain. All of the people that I have personally interacted with all embrace this celebration and are looking forward to it. If it were a stumbling block we would not have the celebration or tone it down.
I can certainly see the argument that it’s a meat sacrificed to idols issue. The question then is whether those offended by us not having it or those offended by us having it are the weaker brother. The point of my question is not to call one side or the other weaker but rather to determine what to do when one side will be offended whatever you decide.
Adam, Personally, I agree with you and all who espouse the point of meat offered to idols. However, I think a bit of education to the flock might be in need that God is in the Declaration of Independence, and stop taking the secular stance that the word God in that document is a generic little g God equating it to Zeus or an Egyptian god. How many differing religions were there here in America in 1776? Where did they come from? There were many many many differing Christian denominations. How many Buddhists were here? Muslims? Shintoists? and the list… Read more »
Adam, we have one patriotic service a year. In 27 years of doing such services not once has a member shared the services were a stumbling block to them.
I am right now telling you that they are a stumbling block to me. Were I a member of your church, I would not attend on Sunday. The question remains, what should we do when someone will be offended either way?
Adam, you’ve never been to one of our services. How can you say it is a stumbling block?
However, to answer your question if you came to me and said I won’t come Sunday because you are having a patriotic service I would reply in a loving way, “I hope to see you Wednesday.”
Adam, In the context of the meats offered to idols passage the weaker brother is the one who is offended (caused to stumble) when another brother partakes in meats offered to idols. So the answer to your question, if we follow the analogy consistently, is it would seem to me the person who is offended by the patriotic services is the weaker brother. You admitted in your response to Dean that you would be caused to stumble by a patriotic service, in the 1 Corinthians passage the one who is caused to stumble is the weaker brother. Of course, I… Read more »
Amen, John!
I agree with you – it’s a distraction at minimum and idolatry at worst.
That’s why I’m moving toward what you just articulated – not having any patriotic celebrations/recitation whatsoever in worship services.
Thank Tarheel,
About 15 or so years ago I was preaching revival in Midwest City, OK. I guess the Sunday of the meeting was either on or near Veteran’s Day. At the end of the service, the pastor and I were standing in the back shaking hands and kissing babies when a visibly irritated man approached us and said, “Not one word was said about our veterans today!” As far as I know the man left and never came back. It’s not the church’s job to honor veterans, it is the church’s job to honor Christ.
Interesting article, Dean. Thanks. You wrote that you were a dinosaur and that “One of the attitudes that make me feel outmoded will be on display this week.” From your youthful looking picture I’ve always figured I’m more of a dinosaur than you! I don’t recall ever attending a church-sponsored 4th of July celebration. Perhaps our own circumstances in my county regulated that. When I was growing up we had one of the oldest communities and cemeteries in the county that had a 4th of July celebration. There were two Baptist churches in that community (splits, of course!) and there… Read more »
Unfortunately, in too many churches, the reigning king for the Sunday morning service is King Clock. As such, it can be very hard to celebrate America and the grace of God on us, have time to make the turn to focusing on our need for Jesus and growing in Christ, and still get out in time to beat the Methodists to the Cracker Barrel. Or, perhaps, looked at this way: every week there are more things to try and connect the family of God with each other and with the Lord Jesus than we have time for. We could sing… Read more »
There is always the Sam the Eagle option : “A Salute to All Nations (but mostly America) ”
???
Muppets reference FTW!
Chris Wofford “My largest concern is people equating love for/pride in America with love for God. I think some people think those are the same things or that one flows from the other.” This is a potential confusion not worth entertaining, in my opinion. Tarheel “I used to defend these types of services when I was an associate pastor and we had them…but for the last several years….I have been moving away from the idea you posited above.” Yes exactly. As I have become older I have seen more and more the abuses from our government. They no longer protect… Read more »
Wow, I am really confused and dumbfounded by the nature of this blog. I would assume Pastor Dean knew he was going to get a lot of feedback on this topic. While confused I am not surprised at the majority of opinions who have such a low opinion of SBC members that they believe they cannot define the difference between their faith and their patriotism. I am not a youngster , in my whole life never have I witnessed any confusion from the average SBC church goer about the their worship and faith in God and their thanks and asking… Read more »
John Barry,
My sentiments exactly.
Has anyone ever seen the video with Red Skelton in regards to the Pledge of Allegiance?
Not sure if I can post the youtube link here, but search Red Skelton and Pledge of Allegiance. It is soooooo much needed here.
Does anyone even know who he is?
Ed Chapman
Oh I see. Red Skelton > Biblical reasoning. That will surely fix all of our issues here.
John. My point is sadly being made by Ed in this thread.
He is confused by this issue and so are countless others
Jim, my post has nothing to do with the 2016 election. Please keep such comments to yourself.
Dean, I wasn’t responding to you. I was responding to John Barry and making a contextual observation. I will make such comments as I see relevant.
Jim Perry, You injected the 2016 election into the discussion of the subject. Are you saying the majority of worshipers that go to a church who has a “large” fourth of July ceremony go there for the patriotic message? You do not think they go there to be in the House of the Lord and worship? I will not get into the politics of the election of Trump to stay on topic. I can go to a meeting about helping abused children at the Boys Club, say the Pledge, sing God Bless America and not get confused about the purpose… Read more »
Jim, as the author I have the responsibility to keep this comment stream on point. We are talking about patriotic services not the 2016 election.
John
What do you think of Eds responses? He is obviously majorly confused on this topic. There are many others as well
You have not dealt with what he has said IMO
My first comment above was an attempt at humor. This one is more serious.
It seems like even though on the surface Calvinism / Traditionalism would have nothing whatsoever to do with this topic, my perception is that Calvinists seem to be the ones inclined to oppose patriotic services while Trads lean more to supporting them. I am not judging one side or the other to be more Godly, Theological or whatever, I am just stating a perception. If this is accurate, why would that be so? Curious as to the thoughts of others on this.
Why would you go there? It seems to me that any minister of the gospel should be concerned about the worship of God? Have you ever really studied the idea of worship and what it means biblically? What about Nadab and Abihu? The touching of the ark as it was transported from the Philistines? These are prime examples of exactly how God is concerned with “how” he is worshipped. Again, worship should me that we meet together to ascribe honor and glory to God-right? Why would any true minister of the Gospel want to trivialize the worship of God and… Read more »
I don’t disagree.
“Have you ever really studied the idea of worship……”
Glenn,
There was absolutely no need to be condescending and insulting in your response. You can disagree with my observation without personal attack.
I was about to make the same observation. I also suspect it is highly generational.
Maybe we need to put out a sign this week saying… If you want to show your love for your country and enjoy some patriotic music, go somewhere else… we have no interest in that being a part of our church testimony. Add to it… Now if we come knocking at your door and inviting you to church or wanting to share the gospel with you… make sure you stop and listen. We want all to know we mean business… Jesus business only. No time for small talk or anything other than Jesus talk… unless you join our blog and… Read more »
Scott, it does go back to roots and what you believe as foundational. Our Puritan founders in New England were stern and severe on their Sunday church services. No choirs, no polyphonic hymns, no art, no creature comforts. Church attendance was mandated and no distractions allowed. The sermon was the only reason to be there and the sermon was usually written and read exactly. There was no celebration of Easter or Christmas as the thought was Sunday church was sufficient for all. The intellectual pursuit was a prime consideration and no distractions allowed. The Puritan church model scaled down to… Read more »
Great point about Cals and non-Cals. Dave may have hinted at that in his Moore/Graham comment as well. I am curious though…do guys like Moore still salute the flag, recite the pledge, and stand at attention with hand over the heart during the national anthem? Did anyone notice Moore or anyone else prominent not participating in this at the annual convention? I have a friend who grew up traditional SBC but then “converted” to 5-point Calvinism (as well as a post-millennialist eschatology) a few years ago. He says he now no longer does any of the patriotic things I just… Read more »
Dan: This is an interesting thing about more modern Calvinists. In the past, Calvinists were post millennial. They believed in “reforming”, and the state was a big project of reformation. Calvin and all of the reformers, for the most part, believed in a state church. The Calvinists in the SBC today do not go in for that at all. That is why they are not truly Reformed. They believe in Reformed soteriology, but not much of the Reformed project. That’s why when you read traditionally and thoroughly Reformed people, they are somewhat critical of Dr. Moore’s approach. It’s because they… Read more »
Louis, If I may state a few things and then inquire further of you. The SBC is not Reformed. The SBC is not governed by a denominational body that decides on the theology espoused by the member churches. In order to participate voluntarily in the SBC, a certain level of doctrinal agreement is necessary, but this leaves a great deal of flexibility to the individual churches. Thus, the SBC can have a wide range of sotierological range and still participate together because we do not require adherence to Calvinism or Arminianism or Traditionalism, just not heresy(ism). Baptists by definition are… Read more »
We set aside a few minutes at the beginning of church as community time. During this time we recognize birthdays, anniversaries and achievements of members of our congregation (winning a sports trophy, academic achievement, retirement, etc.) We do not do this as a form of worship (in other words we do not worship the people being recognized) but as a time of community building and encouraging one another. During this time on Sunday we will sing one patriotic song and I will say a prayer of thanks for the freedoms we have while asking God to give us the strength… Read more »
Johnathon, well and simply said. This would be the “norm” in many a small or medium size church. This is a non issue unless it is another chipping away of the traditional and common sense understanding that most SBC members have. Do you know any Christian Marines who thought their love and loyalty to the USA and the beloved Corp even came close to their belief and loyalty to our Savior? God Bless Chesty Puller, without men like him I would have to sneak out to worship our Savior. Spending a few minutes to honor and be thankful for our… Read more »
That seems like a reasonable practice to me, as one who wishes churches would be careful in this area.
http://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/should-patriotism-have-a-place-in-church?
David, thank you for posting this article. It is very helpful and offers great guidelines for patriotic recognitions.
Thanks for the informative link, it highlights the divide here and that is going to be more pronounced in the SBC. In all my travels and different home churches I have never observed a Sunday Morning Church service recite the Pledge of Allegiance . Not saying it does not happen but certainly a rare not common event. So most SBC churches are at their core very patriotic and supportive of American values. Once again I think this has always been held in proper perspective and in no way is our great nation worshiped but being appreciated and treated as a… Read more »
John,
If a church doesn’t celebrate Independence Day, it isn’t necessarily repealing from culture. Many churches that don’t celebrate this holiday put limited focus on others as well. It usually boils down to an issue of regulative principle views and application.
You are right that Calvinists generally have a more strict view of the regulative principle.
Part 2:
http://www.desiringgod.org/interviews/how-would-you-lead-an-overly-patriotic-church?
I do not think that many of the non Calvinist people commenting on this topic are surprised at John Piper’s views on this subject. Again this is the split that is developing in the SBC with the average SBC member being completely unaware of what is happening with Calvinist views taking over the SBC leadership and filling up the bench. 90 percent of SBC churches are going to have an observance or message on the fourth of July and not dwell on it other than they are blessed to be born in the USA. We have indeed made a mountain… Read more »
One question of which i would certainly hope we all know the answer: What is the purpose, function or mission of the church? That alone should determine our worship and every area of ministry. What our people want or enjoy should not be the question. What offends them (or visitors) should not be the question. But, what has God through His Word said? What did He tell the church to do and be? I haven’t seen anything about secular patriotism. Doesn’t make patriotism sin, even though the day may very well be coming when it is exactly that. Patriotism can… Read more »
Les,
I agree with your analysis, and it points out that this isn’t about patriotism, but how hard a church holds to the regulative principle.
There is a point I think some are missing: It’s been said that no one complains that a patriotic service is a stumbling block… Right, Ed wouldn’t, would he? The point is that there are many, even as Ed said, that would walk away from our churches of we failed to do patriotic services and took down the USA flag. Would these complain that such services are a stumbling block to them? Of course not. But yet they would leave the congregation if such services weren’t performed. If that is true, then such services are a stumbling block to them… Read more »
This issue has been around for centuries. Read what Augustine said about Rome. It’s also exacerbated in the US context because out of nation’s unique founding – Pilgrims, Colonies, Founding Fathers etc. The idea that God (and the explicit Christian vision of God) was behind our founding is central to the US project. I know there were lots of Deists among the Founding Fathers, but even their Deism, in a moral sense, looked like Christianity. Also, when we engage in Civic life, we argue for the application of true and just laws – based on the Bible. Take abortion or… Read more »
We also take our cues from the culture around us. We are much less patriotic as a people today than 50 years ago.
Also, I will add that those churches that have a more patriotic flavor are often the quickest and most vocal to voice dissent.
Who would be the loudest dissenter today, Jerry Falwell or Tim Keller?
Scott H. It was a simple question. Have you ever studied the idea of Biblical worship. Nothing underhanded meant. It was a simple question. I know that I had not until several yrs into the ministry
Thanks
Glenn,
My offense at your comment came because I asked a simple question and you corresponded with a question I found belittling as it seemed to question my Biblical literacy unnecessarily. Your question had nothing to do with my question about Calvinists and Traditionalists today. You may not have intended offense but that is how I perceived your tone. For the record I have studied and preached on worship. Having said that, that revelation doesn’t answer why Calvinists today seem to be most of those opposed to Patriotic services and vice versa on Traditionalists.
Dean,
I really like the idea of memorabilia tables. I think our church may do that for a future service, maybe around Veteran’s Day. Set up a table for each of the Armed Services and ask church members to bring in their or a loved one’s items to place on the table corresponding to that branch, such as dog tags, uniform items, flags, etc. Is that how you are doing it?
Jeff, we are asking people to bring their own card table but we will provide about 150 ft of tables for those who don’t. We do not break it up according to branch. We just give each person about 3 ft. They fill the area with dog tags, flags, award ribbons, uniforms, pictures, etc…
Dean, I wanted to say thank you for writing this post. I fully support you, David, and others who have these kind of services. It’s not what we do at our church, but I believe the SBC is big enough to have all kinds of churches in it, and from reading what you have written over the years, I am sure you and your church are not idolatrous in the sense that you would put the USA over your love for God. I hope that the SBC does not become the kind of place where churches that do what you… Read more »
Dean
Thank you for the excellent, encouraging post! It is good to know that there are still some Christian people in America who have common sense.
Woody
I don’t think it is too difficult to thank God for, and pray for, our country, while still worshiping God. Baptists have been doing so for a long time.
Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s. -Matthew 22:21
Some of my previous thoughts on this subject:
http://gulfcoastpastor.blogspot.com/2011/04/patriotism-and-christian-worship.html
David R. Brumbelow
American “God & country” Evangelicals see the world through a strange fog when it comes to their country. When God tells us that we are in the world but not of the world, and that He has called us out of the world, and that we are not to love the world or the things of the world, where does the USA fit into that? Is it the world or is it part of the Church, or is it some blurry-lined conflation of the two? If it’s the world, then it’s against the Church and it will hate us as… Read more »
Excellent Ken
Amen!
Exactly Ken. It’s not whether you the pastor or a few of the members get the difference between the USA and Israel or the New Israel, is about those in the congregation that don’t get it. In my town there is a Christian radio station that plays much of American Family Radio productions where church and state are often conflated. Where the idea is that the USA is a Christian nation. And all the baggage that goes with that. So maybe y’all see the difference but there are a whole lot of conservative type Christians that don’t. And these are… Read more »
Ken, your comment is exactly the type of comment I had in mind when I wrote the post. No one I know personally lives in a fog thinking America is the church or the covenant successor to Israel. America or any nation can be a friend of the redeemed or an enemy of the redeemed but not the redeemed. It is so ludicrous to think anyone believes God is an American that I have never thought to tell people He isn’t. Parsonmike responds in the most unbelievable way that some are worshipping America. Sunday for a good laugh I am… Read more »
Dean,
I’m sorry you are taking that attitude.
Let’s consider that we are told by the Word to keep ourselves from idols. Now an idol can be what some consider a good thing: like family, like work, like sports, like nationalism or patriotism. These all can be idols.
So are you saying that in your congregation, including those not yet saved and also the saved, that no one struggles with idol worship of any kind?
Or are you saying that they do struggle with idols but you know that none of their idols is patriotism, nationalism, or America?
Parsons, I don’t have a bad attitude. I simply don’t believe what you claim. I can’t fathom someone sitting through any of our services and thinking it is about worshipping America. Parsons I find that thought amazing. Our service will glorify Jesus from beginning to end and in doing so we will thank God for America. We are to keep ourselves from idols but it is clear John was speaking of established idols. Patriotism can be an idol. A preacher can be an idol. A singer can be an idol. A building can be an idol. You are cherry picking… Read more »
Dean, Anything said can be ripped apart, but that doesn’t make it untrue. I can imagine some saying, “When, Lord? Name one occasion when we saw you hungry and did not feed you or saw you naked and did not clothe you! Why, no one I know personally has ever even seen you hungry or naked—much less, didn’t help you. It’s just ludicrous to think that any of us would do that!” You did not answer my question, which was, “When God tells us that we are in the world but not of the world, and that He has called… Read more »
Ken, having read you through the years no one can accuse you of being liberal. My answer indicated America is not the church, it therefore is the world. But let me ask you a couple questions , is the church the church only when it gathers for worship or are we the church as we go? Surely we are the church 24/7. You say America is the world and I agree, is it appropriate for you to love America, the world which hates he church? Another question, just curious, would you allow the traditional pledges to be said during VBS… Read more »
Dean,
Undoubtedly, your love for America is no different than mine. I only mean to criticize the practice and not your intentions or heart.
Yes, we are the church as we go–24/7. And yes, we ought to love the world which hates the Church. No, if it was up to me, the pledge to the American flag would not be said in church.
And yes, you probably can find inconsistencies in me if you look hard enough.
A little background for those who don’t know me. I spent over a decade as a missionary to the Philippines. It never bothered me if a congregation had a flag of the Philippines in their sanctuary or said/did something to express patriotism, loyalty, or gratitude to their country. I was a guest in their country, after all. Fast-forward to the present. I live in El Paso (TX), and most of the members of my current congregation have some kind of military connection (they are either in the military, retired from the military, or married to someone who is/was). Needless to… Read more »
Kevin, I don’t think most of the people here have any issues with expressing gratitude for the freedoms enjoyed in this country. I would even venture to say that most do not have an issue per se with the American flag being on or near the stage. I think the concern is when the worship service becomes dominated by patriotic songs rather than worship songs. Further, should something like the Pledge of Allegiance be said within the context of a worship service? Those are the questions that I think people are struggling with. We are called to pray for our… Read more »
Kevin, Good post. I think this subject matter needs to be more like you speak of than presenting one way is better than another. I once pastored in El Paso (Scotsdale Baptist). It was a great time in our lives. We also did it up big for patriotic days. From my experience,the day was a day we worshiped freely and thanked God for the men and women who serve(d) and for the God who allows us to live in such a great country. I think it would be easy to say, some might think we went overboard at times but… Read more »
Great to hear from you, Jon! I am familiar with that church you mentioned–I’ve met the current pastor.
Some of the younger OFW’s in your church may have met me if they went to school in Manila.
PS: email me (from my blog) when you have time and tell me about your church.
You have my e-mail. At the very least as one who names the name of Christ to be courteous and give a reason why not to allowing me to comment.
Jim, we’ve had extended discussions with you on your commenting. You’re on moderation for a reason. That means every comment someone has to manually approve, which is more work for us. I can speak for me personally, when I see a moderated comment, if I don’t feel like it adds to the discussion, I trash it. The burden is on you to contribute productively, not on us to defend why we do or don’t approve your comments.
For the record, Jim, arguing about how and why you were put on moderation doesn’t add productive discussion to the comment thread, so comments about that will not be posted. You had several moderators speak to you in another thread about your comments and tone before you were placed in moderation. Again and for the last time: comments that add productive input to a discussion will be approved, others will be trashed, at our varying discretion depending on who’s moderating at that moment. Please join in by writing respectfully, clearly, and on-topic so we can all have a nice day… Read more »
Interesting…Well, it seems to me that there is a lack of education on the part of the SBC in regards to our founding fathers intent on America, even in its declarations of national holidays.
If my people…heal their “of the world” land.
Ed, it’s the exact opposite, in fact. I came to reject the view that the founding fathers set out to create a Christian America precisely through education. David Barton, the foremost proponent of the Christianized founding viewpoint, has been thoroughly discredited by historians, even conservative Christian historians.
It’s not that we don’t know about it or are uneducated – it’s that we do know about it and reject that viewpoint.
If you would like to know more you can see, for example:
CHRISTIAN HISTORY: HOW DAVID BARTON IS DOING IT WRONG
https://blogs.thegospelcoalition.org/evangelical-history/2017/05/12/christian-history-why-david-barton-is-doing-it-wrong/
Were the Founding Fathers Christians?
http://www.nathanfinn.com/2011/05/10/was-america-founded-as-a-christian-nation/
I base my opinion on Founding Fathers quotes, including those of which I attempted to post, from George Washington, and John Adams, and Thomas Jefferson, and there are tons more that I didn’t post that I can come up with.
Sorry that we disagree on this issue. Our constitution was made for a religious people, not a secular one…that is from a founding father.
Ed, if you would spend some time with the articles I posted, including following the linked material in them, you would see that very often those quotes are taken out of context or the authors that promote that kind of thing employ “quote-mining” which means they only point out statements that seem to align with their thinking while ignoring other statements that contradict their thesis. It isn’t that we disagree, it’s that you are using poor historical sources and it’s led you to misunderstand the nature of the religious language the founding fathers used. Why not spend some time reading… Read more »
http://www.intellectualtakeout.org/blog/why-benjamin-franklin-hated-going-church Benjamin Franklin Signer of the Declaration of Independence and Unites States Constitution “Here is my Creed. I believe in one God, the Creator of the Universe. That He governs it by His Providence. That He ought to be worshipped. “That the most acceptable service we render to him is in doing good to his other children. That the soul of man is immortal, and will be treated with justice in another life respecting its conduct in this. These I take to be the fundamental points in all sound religion, and I regard them as you do in whatever sect… Read more »
Please explain your point in posting these. I said above that there are plenty of quotes that can be taken out of context or made to appear like they support the idea of a Christian founding, when they actually do no such thing. Neither Franklin nor Jefferson were Christians, nor claimed to be. The final quote you give by Jefferson is the perfect example. He’s not claiming to be a Christian, he’s redefining it the same way modern day theological liberals do. i.e. It’s not important that he believe in Jesus as God’s Son and Savior, but rather a “real… Read more »
I guess that the quotes are in the eyes of the beholder, then. From Ben Franklins own words, summarized, he was a Christian that doubted the deity of Jesus, because he didn’t trust the church of England, but did not think that God would punish those who doubted. He didn’t like going to church because the preacher was more concerned about making people better church GOERS than proper citizens. In Christ’s Law, we have Love God and Love people. But the preacher was only preaching the Love God part, and not the Love People part. And it turned Ben Franklin… Read more »
Franklin himself claimed to be a deist, rejected the divinity of Christ, and believed that God didn’t punish unbelievers. That’s not a Christian viewpoint — and if you think it is that probably explains the disconnect in our conversation more than any other single point. We started this conversation because of your accusation that people around here need to be “educated” on the founding fathers, now you’ve gone post-modern and we all have our own historians and there’s no hope of agreement. That won’t do. There’s truth. Not your historians vs. my historians. You’re engaging in what’s called “confirmation bias”… Read more »
Quotes please.
Obviously, we see the word, “unbelievers” differently.
The word he used, “unbelievers” had to do with those who doubted the deity of Jesus, based on the teachings of the Church of England, which no one trusted.
But that word in no way is an indication of atheists, or deism as you claim it to be.
In a pamphlet for Europeans titled “Information to Those Who Would Remove to America,” 1754, Benjamin Franklin wrote: “Atheism is unknown there; Infidelity rare and secret; so that persons may live to a great age in that country without having their piety shocked by meeting with either an Atheist or an Infidel. And the Divine Being seems … pleased to favor the whole country.”
Reading your last three comments is causing me to doubt that you know what deism is… it’s not atheism.
Franklin claims to have embraced deism in his autobiography. His comments you quoted above are consistent with a deist perspective .
Ed, Dr. Thomas Kidd of Baylor University just wrote an incredible book on the piety, belief system, and person of Ben Franklin. He gives ample evidence that Franklin was only a deist, and a poor deist at that, and that in numerous conversations and letters shared between George Whitefield never came close to accepting the fact that Jesus is the Son of God. Dr. Kidd is an excellent authority on all things Colonial religious history and the history of the faith of our founding fathers. I encourage you to check him out. He’s pulling his information directly from primary sources,… Read more »
Chad: Thanks for the question and your observations. I agree with the way you describe the SBC. I would put a bit of a twist on your view of how Baptists view the State. I agree that we do not believe in a State church or that the State can dictate religion to others. But there is a tension here, is there not? I would argue that any time Christians seek to bring Biblical truth to the legislative process and argue for that, that we are, in fact, “dictating religion” to others. When we seek to impose a view of… Read more »
Just a question that I would like feedback on. How many readers here have been to a Sunday church service where the Pledge of Allegiance was done? I have been to many Bible Belt 4 of July services but that has not been a part of any service. How about Thanksgiving which is a uniquely American holiday, should churches not have a Thanksgiving acknowledgement or not? I think Louis has a good point, this is a social and political tinged viewpoint that will decide on how your church service is conducted. Where will young people learn of the impact that… Read more »
James, I have been to services where the national anthem has been sung and the Pledge has been done, certainly not every Sunday but on memorial holidays at times. I do not think that anyone is arguing that most of the SBC members believe that God is American. Who is advocating that? However, there are a great deal of cultural Christians that cannot distinguish the church from American identity. I have spoken to people who identify good American citizenship as regular involvement in church. Does that not speak strictly against what you are discussing here? I do not believe they… Read more »
James, Great name by the way. I was an intern while in college at a church that not only said the pledge to the American Flag, but to the Christian flag, and to the Bible every single Sunday morning after the opening pastoral prayer. I was only a summer intern with this church and a part of a program that the Arkansas Baptist State Convention had at the time that paid for interns to work in essentially dying churches. This church was uber-patriotic and wouldn’t even read Scripture before pledging allegiance to the American Flag. There was always a big… Read more »
James that’s exactly what bothers me about churches that do Awana or RA’s/GA’s (if anyone does that still). Where we teach kids not only to do the Pledge of Allegiance–which, secularly speaking, is good insofar as we do not seek to undermine the country whose benefits we enjoy–but then a made-up pledge to the Bible, which the Lord doesn’t command we do, and a made-up pledge for a made-up “Christian” flag, which to me, raising a flag for Jesus that Jesus didn’t institute is an abomination. We lift up the Savior, not a flag.
Louis, I disagree that when we seek to limit sinful behavior we are imposing religion upon people, though we can seek legislation that would in fact do that. We are not seeking people to adopt the reasons for why we are against abortion but to seek the end of abortion. They are free to disagree with our reasoning as well as free to disagree with the morality of abortion, but that does not mean that we should not strive to have legislation that protects the innocent. For most people they would not associate morality with religion which is why we… Read more »
Chad:
You may not know of Reformed SBCers, especially the young ones, who are enthusiastic about public engagement on things like race and immigration but not on homosexuality or marriage, but I do. I suspect their tribe is increasing, but I admit that is just a sense of things.
If you oppose gay marriage, homosexual unions etc., and want to see that imposed on society by law, against the wishes of others, you are seeking to impose your religious beliefs on others. I know you don’t want to see it that way, but it is still the case.
Louis, I think we are talking about a couple different things perhaps as I have had an opportunity to reflect more about this. Morality is a reflection of theology not religion. If you are intending religion as equivalent to theology then we are probably just missing each other as we talk. Your understanding of moral truth is based upon your understanding of theology. But I want to clearly distinguish between religion and theology as not the same thing. Religion has to do with the external practices that comprise exercise of faith. When we seek laws that we believe clearly reflect… Read more »
I’m a pastor of a small rural church in north TX filled with traditional, conservative, patriotic folks. We have flags (U.S. and Christian) in the front corners of the auditorium, off the stage, but still visible. On patriotic holidays, we usually have a patriotic floral arrangement at the front of the room as well. The only elements of the service that call any attention to those types of holidays are the recognition of veterans at the very beginning of the service along with other announcements (really prior to what I would consider the official start of corporate worship, which we… Read more »
David, Hey, Brother! Its Chad from Olney. I think along the same lines you do. I don’t ignore the holiday totally, I even put in the song “God of Our Fathers” in the set. I like the words to that one. I also like the fact that it is set to Russian music. That is confusing, compelling, mischievous, and relevant to current events- all in one song! But that’s about as far as I go with the music. I acknowledge the holiday in different ways as you have mentioned. I don’t think people care one way or another. There are… Read more »
Hey Chad, good to hear from you. Hope things are well in Olney. I agree with what you’ve said here, and grew up in a large church that really pulled out all the stops for patriotic holidays. It left a bad taste in my mouth for sure.
Louis, If I understand you, you are mixing up morals and religion. Because of what we believe we seek to conform laws to our view of righteousness but that is not imposing religion. Which religion? For Islam is opposed to gay marriage, Catholics are opposed to abortion, Mormons are opposed to stealing and so forth. Besides we don’t impose our understandings simply because we advocate for them. We are not saying the law should say “gay marriage is wrong because the Bible says so” we are saying that according to our Lord and King, we believe gay marriage is wrong,… Read more »
Morals are based on an understanding of what is right and wrong. And that is an inescapably religious question.
Louis,
So an atheist can’t offer up a bill that legalizes or criminalizes an activity because he’s not religious?
Who offered up there law that made gay marriage legal? What religion were they? Did they impose their religion on you? You are not thinking this through my brother.
For those who wish to use a church service to promote patriotism in a big or little way: Maybe you should not just focus on how GREAT the USA is but also on the great sin and wickedness that prevails throughout the land. And mention the sins we as a people (Americans) have embraced and are embracing all the more: adultery, pornography, gay marriage, millions of children murdered each year by their moms, greed, materialism, the worship of sports and fame, gambling, fatherless homes, and many more, most of which are sanctioned by the government, and some even encouraged by… Read more »
Parson: Of course an atheist may suggest a bill on a moral question. But while the atheist may not want to admit it, what he thinks about right and wrong are moral judgments that are derived at through faith. Some legislative questions are decided by utilitarianism or empirical observation. For example, a road with a 30 mph design speed shouldn’t be posted with a 55 mph speed limit. But many legislative questions involve moral judgments that cannot be “proven” to be right and wrong. Age of consent laws, who may marry whom, racial discrimination etc. are all decided by people… Read more »
Louis,
So if a Muslim proposes a law banning gay marriage, he is imposing Islam on you?
Parsons Mike, When a church includes some patriotic elements in the worship it is not doing so to tolerate, condone or otherwise overlook sin. On the contrary the church is merely giving thanks to God for the freedoms that we enjoy in this nation that are rare in other parts of the world. Expressing gratitude is just as necessary as the call to repentance. I don’t see anything in Scripture that would keep Christians anywhere from acknowledging the goodness of God. Can patriotism become idolatrous? Absolutely, but the Church in the United States in 2017 is not in any grave… Read more »
Woody, Right, you are expressing a moderation that the OP did not. We should be grateful TO God for the blessings we have received and are receiving here in the USA. But that is NOT celebrating the USA, that is celebrating God. Waving the flag and other overt displays of nationalism is not gratitude to God or celebrating the God from whom all good things come. And, brother, that line can be easily crossed, maybe not by you, but there are millions of conservative Christians that do cross that line because in their minds it is blurred. In defense of… Read more »
This reminds me of the church that had a wall in the entrance that had plaques and pictures of servicemen and women from the church that had given their lives in the military. One day as they were leaving, a little boy inquired, “What is that?” His dad explained that the wall was to honor the people who had died in the service. To which the little boy replied, “Was that the morning service or the evening service?’
America was founded on Christian principles by Christian people. That does not mean all the founders were perfect Christian people. But they had a profound respect and reliance on the Bible and Judeo-Christian beliefs. Their early writings often referred to God and the Bible. Our earlier monuments are filled with biblical references.
http://gulfcoastpastor.blogspot.com/2013/06/is-america-christian-nation.html
David R. Brumbelow
“Our earlier monuments are filled with biblical references.”
I agree in part, but they’re also filled with Egyptian mythological symbols, Masonic symbols, the Knights of Templar liturgy and symbols, and a whole host of other non-Christian things. Any early American historian can tell you that.
Not all the founders were even really Christian to begin with, but even the most agnostic among them allowed that the Revolution was successful not by their own might, but thanks to Jehovah God specifically, God generally, or Providence broadly. They knew this liberty came from whomever created mankind, and honored that. But this in no way makes America a Christian nation, any more than Ireland or Italy are Catholic nations.
I disagree completely with this article. I grew up in a small, white, independent Baptist church where we sang Patriotic songs and where love for America and love for Christ were often conflated. I am currently a member of a multi-ethnic SBC church plant with black leadership. I have discussed this topic many times with my pastor. I believe minorities and others who may, understandably, have a complex relationship with America and her history are very alienated by unbridled displays of Patriotism in church and that this sort of thing does terrible damage to our witness. I am very thankful… Read more »
Should the believer be different in a church service than they might be at a football game… the grocery store…? Do we only worship God at the church service… or… Should we live in a way that worshipping God is a 24/7 lifestyle? I’m not suggesting breaking out in a hymn but worship is a matter of the heart, not the meeting. We may want to be Baptist enough to pass the plate at the game – kidding – maybe. Maybe worship in the church has a problem the other 51 weeks if we do it so wrong early July.… Read more »
Jon, The problem is that we humans too easily seek identity from the world and thus at the expense of who we are first and foremost: children of God. Thus every identity that us ours in this world, our country, our skin color, our gender, our family name, our marriage, and so forth, are to be under submission to our identity in Christ. The purpose in gathering together with our brothers and sisters in the Lord is to honor God and to celebrate the cross of Christ, wherein all those other identities have been made temporal, and like the flowers,… Read more »
I believe it is perfectly appropriate for a church to have a patriotic worship service, or not. It seems to me the most strident and dogmatic here are not the ones who think a patriotic service is admissible, and can even be evangelistic – but those that are saying a patriotic service is wrong by anyone, anytime, anywhere. Lighten up; we are not denying the Faith. Happy Independence Day! Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, the people He has chosen as His own inheritance. -Psalm 33:12 NKJV Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach to… Read more »
David,
Which nation is it “whose God is the Lord?”
Ken,
I don’t think anyone is denying there are other nations where God is not sovereign over. As Americans, we celebrate our nations importance to us… as citizens.
Many kids in our churches have birthdays near our own kids but we don’t celebrate the other kids birthdays as we do our own. Why? Because they are not our kids.
David, You wrote. from the Word: Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, the people He has chosen as His own inheritance. This nation, as a whole, and neither by its majority, worship Jesus as its Lord. There is only one nation that does that and Jsus said that His kingdom is not of this world. You them wrote from Proverbs: Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people. Since the USA is awash in sin and thus as a whole a reproach before God, should we, as Christians, take time from our worship… Read more »
Parson: If a Muslim seeks to ban gay marriage, of course he is seeking to see that the tenets of his faith are applied to the larger society. I cannot see why you are having a hard time with this concept. It is really elementary. That is what is causing angst in Europe right now. With the large Muslim migration, there are increasing calls for the imposition of Muslim lifestyle regulations across various societies in Europe. Surely you don’t deny that is happening? In the case of gay marriage, the tenets of the Christian faith agree with those of Islam.… Read more »
Louis, So yes, then, a Muslim who wants to ban gay marriage is imposing Islam on you. And the Deists who were a part of the founding of this nation imposed their Deism on you as well? If Muslims gained control in USA and made it a crime not to bow to Allah and attend a Mosque, I wouldn’t have Islam imposed on me. I would not bow. Would you? For if the law passed is evil, I stand against in the power of the Lord. And if the law passed is good, I obey it in reverence to my… Read more »
Louis,
My last line should read:
Just because religion has played a part in informing culture and nations as to laws, does not mean that those religions are imposing RELIGION on the people. If they object to those laws, they have choices: to move or even to die if necessary.
Parson: You seem to believe that so long as I am not required to pray to Allah or enter a Mosque that there has not been an imposition of religion? Do I get that right? You see the imposition of religion as requiring veneration or worshipping in a certain way? That is where we disagree. And the is question that I have been discussing. What is the role of Christians and the Church when it comes to seeing that just laws govern a society? Maybe if I put it that way, we can communicate better. Reformed people (with a capital… Read more »
Louis, First, my name is Mike and I go to Parsons Baptist, so name because it is located on parsons Avenue. My apologies for any mix up. The problem i am having with what you say is the word imposition. An imposition is caused by imposing something on someone, which is to impose on them and the definition for impose is as follows: 1.force (something unwelcome or unfamiliar) to be accepted or put in place. “the decision was theirs and was not imposed on them by others” synonyms: foist, force, inflict, press, urge; More 2. take advantage of someone by… Read more »
“First, my name is Mike and I go to Parsons Baptist, so name because it is located on parsons Avenue. My apologies for any mix up.”
I’m never gonna sing Winter Wonderland again without saying, “We’ll pretend that he is Parson Mike.” Mark it.
For those wishing to have a biblical, patriotic worship service this Sunday, a few possible Scriptures: Blessed is the nation whose God is the Lord, the people He has chosen as His own inheritance. -Psalm 33:12 NKJV Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people. -Proverbs 14:34 Romans 13 1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves.… Read more »
David,
None of those Scriptures tell us to celebrate a country running amok with evil during the time we have set apart for worshipping the Holy One.
Happy 4th to you, and yes…
John 3:16 is always appropriate
Who is celebrating a country running amok?
We can celebrate a nation which gives us freedom and justice. The greatest country in the world.
Do you pledge allegiance to the flag? If so, why pledge to a flag that represents such an evil country?
Do you sing God bless America? If so, why ask God to bless such an evil country.
Use your nation running amok thought when answering these questions.
Who is celebrating in their worship-of-God services a country that has run amok? From what I read here on this blog: a lot of congregations are. True freedom and justice is found only in Christ. The freedom and justice we have in the USA is due to God alone. Thus it is Him alone we should celebrate and worship in the time we have set aside to gather to do just that. I pledge allegiance to the Lord alone, for this country is just one country of every country that is under God, and many who say that don’t even… Read more »
Parsonsmike…
I think pledge allegiance to many thing and are not outside our complete allegiance to God.
I pledge allegiance to:
My wife
My church
My kids
My employer
If a believer is only allowed to pledge allegiance to God without being in sin, then you must support a total military where no Christian can serve. No Christian to ever serve as POTUS or any political office? Is this what you believe?
Where does it end?
Jon, Before I answer you brother, how far behind is Ohio timewise from where you are? Just curious. My problem with any pledge that includes and invokes God is that it is usually said by many without real grasp of God, and thus using His name in vain. With the pledge of Allegiance, inherent in the words is a lie: the idea that we are one nation under God means that we as a nation are submitting to the Creator, to the Trinitarian God, to the Father, Son, and Spirit. So why should I lie? Maybe in times past it… Read more »
Parsonmike, I am 8 hour ahead of you (EST). So as I type this it just turned 1:00 PM on Friday… Making it 5:00 AM in Ohio. Church ended about an hour ago. You can find some things out about my church at ebci.org . There is much more to the church than the web site mentions but it gives a decent picture. If you use google you can search for Emirates Baptist Church International, Dubai. It will show up. If you believe God has led you to take the stand you are taking, I pray he never places you… Read more »
Exactly why many of us feel that overt patriotism has its place – honoring the king is also commanded in some of the other passages you posted… But that place is not in a corporate worship service.
Can anyone hear really imagine Paul leading a patriotic worship service? Or Peter? Or James? It’s not like patriotism didn’t exist in the minds of early Christians…
Matthew 22:21 – Jesus says to render unto Caesar his stuff… And to render unto God his stuff… Patriotism is Caesars stuff (or in our case American civil stuff) …corporate Worship services is God stuff.
“Can anyone hear really imagine Paul leading a patriotic worship service? Or Peter? Or James? It’s not like patriotism didn’t exist in the minds of early Christians…”
If they had been American, they would have.
That’s an assumption you can’t possibly prove. It is reasonable though to to assume that there were connverted Jews and Gentiles who were patriotic and yet we see no evidence of “patriotic worship services” in scripture. certainly there were those who were nationalistic snobs – and the New Testament authors spent a lot of time telling them they shouldn’t be. I’m not accusing you here of being a nationalistic snob… But I’m saying that there is New Testament evidence of cautions being given and corrections being laid out for those who were of an overly nationalistic Mindset – especially when… Read more »
JOHN ESTES:
“Can anyone hear really imagine Paul leading a patriotic worship service? Or Peter? Or James? It’s not like patriotism didn’t exist in the minds of early Christians…”
If they had been American, they would have.
OBJECTION, YOUR HONOR. PRESUMPTUOUS.
None of these scriptures, in fact, condone or in any way encourage celebrating said nation in the gathering of God’s people for corporate worship. I really like Star Wars, I think the story is one with a lot of moral lessons, and concepts that help us think about our world and our place in it. But I wouldn’t play the score or dress in costume or re-enact scenes from it in the worship service. No one would suggest we take C.S. Lewis’ Narnia, an allegory in many ways for Christian theology, and make a worship service out of it. At… Read more »
There are obviously good things about America, and bad things about America. We should preach on both.
For those of you who are so negative – think real, real hard. Maybe you can think of something good about the country in which we live.
Are some of you actually saying the verses quoted above should not be used in a worship service?
I plan to have a great 4th of July, both in and out of church. I think God for many, many things about America.
Hope you all have a Happy Independence Day as well.
David R. Brumbelow
David, No one said that any Scripture verse wasn’t appropriate to use in worship. That’s just a bad argument on your part. Note that you avoided answering my questions and instead postulated a bad argument. Sure there are good things about the USA. But they are good BECAUSE of God. But even as you agree, there are bad things about the USA. Should we celebrate the bad things as well? Of course not. But in the time set for worship of the one truly good thing as we read from Matt. 19: And He said to him, “Why are you… Read more »
Mike, I understand your points about the sin in America, however, compared to the rest of the world, the freedoms we experience are unsurpassed. Have you ever spent in time in China? The reason I ask that is because the Communist government there controls virtually everything. They will not allow any newspapers to be published other than the China News Daily. In 2014, when I was there on a business trip, every morning I would eat a fabulous breakfast buffet in the hotel restaurant, but there was only one newspaper available and that was the China News Daily, the organ… Read more »
I don’t think anyone here is suggesting it *must* be any particular way as a denomination. We are debating the merits and drawbacks of patriotic services as a whole. We have many strong opinions, just as the Founders themselves had them, as well as fierce disagreements. They didn’t have consensus and neither will we. It’s fundamentally American to disagree peaceably. I’m sure it must be easy to immediately label some of us as America-hating or liberal, just like Russell Moore is being attacked for supposedly being a liberal and dragging us into Marxism, when nothing is further from the truth!… Read more »
“What we critics are saying (I think) is by all means, celebrate this nation. But keep it where it belongs, outside the regular observation of corporate worship.”
Wouldn’t it be more correct to say…
Lead your churches the best way you understand the Lord is calling you to lead. As a believer, we support and respect your right as a church to be autonomous and as a group of believing Priests, it is not our place to tell you or any church how wrong it is to conduct their services. Especially if we were to lead differently.
It would be more correct to say it however you like. As I said, “It’s fundamentally American to disagree peaceably.” So disagreement is implied. Mine was shorter.