Ever been there? You’ve talked and talked and no matter what evidence you give, what reason, what logic…nothing penetrates? You quote scriptures and give the principles. You present historical precedents and gather witnesses. But it doesn’t make a whit of difference to folks. They are not budging. You get the impression that they aren’t even listening or reasoning. Their minds are made up. When the impasse occurs, what can one say?
There are times in life when there is nothing you can say. There are times when you must simply move on. There is nothing defeatist in that situation. There is nothing shameful in that instance. Understand; in some cases, folks do not want to hear you. They cannot see past their own goals, agendas, and plans–or, their past resolves. Nothing will sway them. They have willed themselves to one position; and their own will keeps them locked where they are. John accounts in chapter five oF his Gospel that even the Miracle Worker, the Savior, himself, had those moments:
39You diligently study the Scriptures because you think that by them you possess eternal life. These are the Scriptures that testify about me, 40yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
41″I do not accept praise from men, 42but I know you. I know that you do not have the love of God in your hearts. 43I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 44How can you believe if you accept praise from one another, yet make no effort to obtain the praise that comes from the only God?
45″But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set. 46If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”
So what are we to say when there’s nothing that can be said that will make any difference? Perhaps nothing. Perhaps all we can do is pray for another. I have encountered this several times as I’ve shared the Word of God and the saving grace He gives through Jesus Christ, His only begotten Son. Atheists listen to the words but do not hear them. Heathens set on living their life their way listen to my words but do not hear them. And that is their choice…to go their own way. What can I say but “have mercy on them Lord, for they know not what they do”.
My father once did that with me, and then God took me on a journey back to the cross where I heard Him loud and clear. Our job is to give the Word, plant the seeds. Sometimes others water, as so many in my life did before I found myself at Calvary’s base. But in the fullness of His time, the Lord of the Harvest will send forth the laborers and people like me will turn and seek the face of God. As my husband says, “We just need to keep on keeping on.” selahV
[copyrighted, SelahV Today, hariette petersen, 2009]
Another relevant passage is John 8:42-47: Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks… Read more »
At first, I thought you were writing about the intramural debates among fellow Southern Baptists like the ones in the previous few posts. Now, I see you are talking about the gospel.
Good post.
I once heard one person describe their ministry as “hang and hover”. The explanation? “We hang out where they are and hover around John 3:16.”
.-= Ted E´s last blog ..DO YOU HAVE A JOB 42 PRAYER LIST? I DO. =-.
Stan, your passage is exactly why we don’t need to be angry or frustrated with the individuals who just don’t budge. The more reason to pray for the Lord to tear down those walls and remove the scales satan has placed to blind folks. selahV
.-= SelahV´s last blog ..IS IT POSSIBLE? =-.
Todd, perhaps you could apply the first part to our little debates that seem to go nowhere. Does make one wonder sometimes how we are ever gonna reach anyone else when we can’t agree on much ourselves. I do like Bart Barber’s post on Putting Up With One Another in the church. It applies well to our convention, too. Wouldn’t you say? selahV
.-= SelahV´s last blog ..IS IT POSSIBLE? =-.
“Does make one wonder sometimes how we are ever gonna reach anyone else when we can’t agree on much ourselves.”
It seems to me like this is exactly the place where Dr. Mohler’s theological triage comes in.
.-= Todd Burus´s last blog ..What We Believe- Article XVIII, The Family, part 1 =-.
Ted E…thanks. I’ve never heard that one…”hang and hover”. Sounds like a military thought, doesn’t it? selahV
.-= SelahV´s last blog ..IS IT POSSIBLE? =-.
Todd Burus…you got me, Todd. I have no clue what Al Mohler’s theological triage is. I imagine it is something the majority of seminary students (especially from Southern) are aware of… and lots of pastors know. But I don’t. Sorry…selahV
.-= SelahV´s last blog ..IS IT POSSIBLE? =-.
SelahV, It is a system he has been developing for the last several years that says there are primary, secondary, and tertiary doctrines and when there is disagreement about a specific doctrine, we look at what level that doctrine occurs at and determine how we can proceed. So for instance, the doctrine of Baptism is secondary and so if we disagree on the doctrine of Baptism then we cannot in good conscience fellowship together in the same local church but we will still consider each other Christians. The Trinity however is a primary doctrine and so denying the Triune nature… Read more »
Theological triage is based on the idea that while all doctrines are important, they are not all of equal significance. Thus, there are “primary” or “first order” doctrines that are essential to what it means to be a Christian (the Atonement, Deity of Christ, etc.) There are also “secondary” or “second order” doctrines which, while not defining who is a Christian, are ones over which it is difficult to fellowship in the same body and thus define churches and denominations (e.g., believer’s baptism, congregational church government, priesthood of believers, etc.) “Tertiary” or “third order” doctrines are those which, while important,… Read more »
BTW, I think the theological triage post is one of the most useful concepts in evangelical life today. It has helped me not only in my relationships with fellow Baptists, but also helps me explain to those who ask why Christianity is so divided. I can show that on the essentials, true Christians are in unity, while there are legitimate reasons why there are different denominations despite our unity on the essentials. I can further explain why we can believe differently about certain issues and that’s OK. .-= Todd Benkert´s last blog ..Two Challenging Sermons from the SBC Pastor’s Conference… Read more »
Agreed. Evangelicals definitely need to deal with the concept of theological triage. It is okay if evangelicals disagree on which doctrines belong in which “tier” but it should be debated, nonetheless.
SelahV — There have been men my husband works (Marines) with who considered themselves atheist and that he had given up talking to but they have shown up on our doorstep as much as two or three years later ready to talk. Whether that is God’s timing or they have finally given up the fight and are ready in their own heart I don’t know. Either way, we know salvation does not come from us talking to people. It comes from Jesus Christ. Be of good courage, my friend, and speak as God gives you words to speak! .-= Sallie´s… Read more »
If you are going to accept the theological triage system…which I do…then we must be careful to not think that just because a doctrine is not first tier, or essential to the Christian faith, that it’s not important. All the commands of Christ are important. All the commands and teachings of Scripture are important, and we should strive to be obedient to all that the Scripture teaches us.
David
Ditto what you said. For me, the balance is to seek faithful, biblical response to all doctrinal issues while at the same time realizing that certain doctrines hold higher significance and greater consequence than others. Thus, we should be careful not to elevate tertiary issues to secondary or even first order status. Likewise, we must be gracious to those who differ from us on secondary and tertiary issues on which faithful inerrantist Christians of good conscience disagree, and which are often more unclear in Scripture than we are willing to admit.
But, Todd, also we should be willing to say that second tier issues….those doctrines that distinctively make us Baptist… should separate us from those Christians who do not believe in these important doctrines that we hold dear…that we believe makes us true to the Bible.
Agree?
David
Agree…assuming we agree on what you mean by “separate.” That is, second tier doctrines are those which limit the kinds of partnerships in which we can legitimately participate. For example, I believe I can legitimately partner in political action against casinos and abortion or in joint efforts for disaster relief with those who are not Baptists. At the same time, I would limit partnership in church planting with churches who were distinctly Baptist doctrinally. Thus, since our denomination is based on autonomous churches partnering together, I have no problem limiting that partnership to those who are distinctively Baptist. Though, at… Read more »
Todd,
I like your answer. I agree.
David
David,
Very well said. I think that is the problem that Burleson and others often fall into. They act is if because some issues aren’t first tier than we should not debate and sometimes divide over the issues.
Matt,
Agreed. You are learning well, Grasshopper.
🙂
David
Todd, thanks for the links. Am babysitting toddlers right now, so I’ll have to read those later. I think now I see where you are coming from. And yeah, I guess we could say that is what my comment was on the stream. But actually, it is more about the tone in which we discuss differences and accept differences, quirks, personalities, etc. that I was driving at. There is a right way and a wrong way to treat one another. And snide remarks should have no place within the family unless we seek to keep batting the same old arguments… Read more »
Southern Baptists are still fleshing that out, as article V of the GCR document notes. For me, I think the BFM2000 is a sufficient basis for cooperation, though I do think there are doctrines addressed in the BFM2000 that are tertiary in nature and that I would have preferred be left out (even though I am in essential agreement with them).
.-= Todd Benkert´s last blog ..Two Challenging Sermons from the SBC Pastor’s Conference =-.
Todd,
Which doctrines are tertiary in the BFM2000 that you would like to have been left out?
David
I think it would be perfectly acceptable to partner denominationally with churches who practiced open communion (which, incidentally, many SBC churches do).
.-= Todd Benkert´s last blog ..Two Challenging Sermons from the SBC Pastor’s Conference =-.
SelahV, “As far as the tiers are concerned, who sets which tier where on his level of import?” That is the tough question… No one does, it needs to be debated. Some people will put very little in the second tier and make things either primary(salvation issues) and then put everything else in the third tier. For instance, Wade Burleson seems to fall into that camp. Other people put everything in the first two tiers and act as if everything is worthy of division. I disagree with both examples I gave, but it is an issue that needs to be… Read more »
Matt: I would disagree with your assumptions on Wade, but that would be for another discussion.
Frankly, in light of 1 Corinthians 13 it doesn’t matter if you would adhere to the BFM or not if there is no genuine love for the person you are disagreeing with it doesn’t mean a thing to God. It’s not works or adherence that is His primary concern, but the movtives behind it. That is something we as a denomination have forgotten.
.-= Debbie Kaufman´s last blog ..How To Overspiritualize Everything =-.
I agree that if there is not love for our brothers and sisters, even if we disagree, then we are missing the point. I ONLY use Wade as an example because he continually calls the issue of women pastors a third tier issue, which IMO, it isn’t. Whether you are egal or comp it is a second tier issue. I think the Lord’s Supper and Baptist, and that only minimally, are the only two things Wade would put in the second tier. IMO, there is more that should be in there. But yes, you are more than welcome to disagree… Read more »
That should be motives behind it. So far hate and power has been the motive.
.-= Debbie Kaufman´s last blog ..How To Overspiritualize Everything =-.
which IMO, it isn’t.
And that is where you and I along with other conservative Southern Baptists would disagree. And that is the rub isn’t it? As long as Christ is at the center, as long as both men and women seek to honor Christ and the words of the Bible(which in this case you and I would disagree on what the Bible exactly says) then why in the world would you put it second tier? This is where I am completely baffled.
.-= Debbie Kaufman´s last blog ..How To Overspiritualize Everything =-.
The point is merely that Evangelicals put different things in different tiers for different reasons. Everyone has the right to their opinion. Our role is merely to discuss and debate why we think certain doctrines should be in certain tiers. And I totally agree. I am glad to be discussing it. Where I have the problem is when an attitude(and believe me you can feel it strongly when discussing these issues) is one of hatred toward the one we disagree with. I am preaching to myself as well. We can let these discussions divide when we become so angry that… Read more »
Debbie,
I have experienced vitriol and hatred many, many times when discussing things, especially in certain blogs back when I first starting blogging 3 years ago.
David
PS. I agree with Matt. Women Pastors is definitely a second tier doctrine which egilatarians should not be welcomed into the SBC. No hatred nor vitriol here…just conviction and willing to say it.
Debbie, It is a second tier issue because it determines where we go to church. To say simply, second tier issues determine where/who one worships with, while still having a good relationship with those who disagree on second tier issues. Example: We love our Presbyterian brothers, but I do not join a Presby church because we disagree on a second tier issues. I am not willing to “join” an egalitarian church with a woman pastor, or with a male pastor for that matter. I CAN extent a hand of fellowship for community causes, and other things, but I cannot be… Read more »
Matt,
Amen again, bro! I like what you have told Debbie here. Now, if I can just talk you into not drinking. 🙂
David
Can we discuss it over a beer?
Okay, okay, you can get tea.
🙂
Double Oh David said
I agree with Volfan. 🙂
.-= Mark Lamprecht´s last blog ..Fourth of July Note and Blog Agenda =-.
🙂
Matt: IOW you want it to be a second tier issue, not because the Bible would have it(as it doesn’t) but because of your personal conviction that it should be. There are those as you know who think of alcohol the same way. Where does it end? It doesn’t. It won’t. And we will never have a CRR until it does. It’s dead before it has even begun. Somethings got to give here and it has to be issues such as this.
.-= Debbie Kaufman´s last blog ..How To Overspiritualize Everything =-.
BTW: I have joined a comp church, been a member for 18 years.
.-= Debbie Kaufman´s last blog ..How To Overspiritualize Everything =-.
SelahV, (my how we’ve strayed from the original topic) I think we’ve done a good job in our churches in training people in sharing the gospel. Yet, there is a need to talk about how we treat a person who has heard the gospel and rejected it. Some discernment is required in every witnessing relationship to know when to continue on being a loving, faithful witness in the face of rejection and when to “move on.” In my opinion, we should never completely give up on those who have heard the message and rejected it. God can and does soften… Read more »
Sorry, Harriet.. #39 comment shouldn’t have been on this one… my comments were ending up in spam for some reason and trying to retype them to show up, that one got double posted here and at the correct post…
.-= Sallie´s last blog ..It's Like Riding A Bicycle… =-.
SelahV,
The “what can I say” along with one of our previous conversations got me wondering. A bit of time has passed and I wonder what more could I say or have said to you?
.-= Mark Lamprecht´s last blog ..Logos Bible Software Giveaway July =-.
Mark…I don’t rightly know. It sure has been a long time since that conversation, huh? 2006! That was very very early on in my blogging experience and at that time I knew so very little about reformed/Calvinist thinking. And as you see in that stream, folks don’t want to be called Calvinist but reformed and now it doesn’t matter. (or at least I don’t think it matters to them). I have to re-read everything to be able to answer your question here on the whole thing. Right now I’m watching my grandkids for the week and my brain is almost… Read more »
Todd, no matter who I’ve talked to about the gospel I try to keep a live-link open in case the day comes the Lord allows me another opportunity. It’s just so vital to remember that we are light and salt of this world and we do not know how much our lives are affecting others and effecting the plan God has to bring them to Himself. Yes, this stream does seem to have taken some odd turns and branch out on its own. I think I’ve lost control. ha ha. What can I say? 🙂 selahV .-= SelahV´s last blog… Read more »
Todd, this is hilarious. I’m getting comments that have nothing to do with my post and comments being deleted. and on and on. Yep…I’ve lost total control. selahV
.-= SelahV´s last blog ..THERE’S SOMETHING TO BE SAID FOR SUBSTITUTIONS =-.