I’m a little late, so sue me. Being retired, I’m not on anyone’s time deadline.
Will the average church Cooperative Program percentage crash through the 5% barrier?
The average church gives 5.16% of their undesignated offerings through the Cooperative Program, as reported by the SBC Executive Committee for the latest available period, 2015-2016. The old 10% goal, the church’s “tithe” to the CP, is a relic of the distant past. Whatever entity leaders are saying about increasing the CP percentage, I suspect that they’re not looking in the rearview mirror at 10% but rather on the road ahead on which the 5% barrier is drawing near. Churches in my state, Georgia, are already below 5% on average.
Plodder’s realistic prediction: No, we will not crash through the 5% barrier but will hover around the same, slightly-above 5% level. We will know in June when the Executive Committee assesses the data.
What will happen with the lawsuit against the North American Mission Board?
A former state convention executive is suing NAMB in federal court and our second-largest entity is defending themselves. The suit has to do with internal denominational workings. The plaintiff alleges interference in his employment. There will likely be motions and other legal stuff in 2018. This lawsuit is, in my opinion, appalling.
Plodder’s contemptuous prediction: There will be no final disposition of the case but if it gets to depositions it will get much more interesting.
Who will be the next president of the Southern Baptist Convention?
Steve Gaines has served two terms and has done well. One recalls that he took office in 2016 as a result of J. D. Greear’s concession after a very narrow ballot. That was one of the SBC’s best moments in some years. If J. D. Greear desires to serve as president one would think he would be unopposed, but then, we’ve got the anti-Calvinist crowd to think about.
Plodder’s wishful prediction: Greear will feel led to be nominated and will be unopposed.
Obviously, things have progressed on this. My best hope is for only a modicum of pre election rancor. I’ll predict a solid victory for Greear in June.
Will any of the SBC state conventions throw 50/50 overboard and push for an increasing share of Cooperative Program receipts?
This is a trick question, since the state convention is still keeping slightly under 60% of the Cooperative Program monies that churches give. The 50/50 is a thrust, a movement, that has seen the percentage drop below 60% for the first time since around the time I was born. I think Mickey Mantle was a rookie that year. Given a choice unencumbered by constituent churches and pastors, the states would keep all they could and find justification for spending more CP dollars within their state borders.
Plodder’s insightful prediction: Yes. Some states will do this. Frankly, if a new, younger state exec has a bold plan for church growth in his state (I’m talking mainly about the old line, legacy southern state conventions where 90% of the CP revenues are collected) and is willing to stake his job on it, I’d favor the proposal.
Will the SBC be a model of Biblical harmony?
Will the Calvinist lion lay down with the Traditionalist lamb and there be sweetness and light all around?
Plodder’s non-aspirational prediction: No. The whole raison d’etre for the Traditionalists is to oppose Calvinists. It used to be the same going the other way but since the Cals have been doing so well, they’re happy with the status quo. The presidential election will show us something. If it is hotly contested, sans parallel at least since the hot days of the CR, we’ll be in for some grief. Just to toss in more foreign phrases, if the Trads go en masse on us because they don’t want the Cals to have carte blanche in the SBC it will be an annus horribilis rather than an annus mirabilis. My wish is for the election of Greear to be a fait accompli. Otherwise, it’s bon voyage for SBC amity.
Will any SBC entities or state conventions have a crisis?
IMB had their downsizing in 2015/2016. Southwestern Seminary disclosed serious financial struggles just recently and implemented about a 10% cut of staff. What entity calamity will befall us in 2018? From what is commonly known, a couple of entities face challenges.
Plodder’s doleful prediction: Yes. Probably a couple…and perhaps something that isn’t even on the radar at present.
How will our two major offerings, Lottie Moon and Annie Armstrong, fare?
Lottie was at $153 million, third highest ever. The LMCO has stayed in the $150 million range for several years now, the only exception being the extraordinary $165.8 million post-crisis year, 2015-2016. Annie was at a record $59.6 million this year, slightly topping the previous record in 2007 which was before the Great Recession of 2008.
Plodder’s aspirational prediction: Records for both. Sometimes I like to be optimistic even if my feelings are otherwise.
Will IMB have a new leader before the year is out?
Plodder’s prayerful prediction: Yes, and a leader who will have the confidence and support of all SBCers.
Five months into the fiscal year,the Executive Committee has received CP gifts that are running about $1 million per month above last year’s. If this continues we may see a significant CP increase for the year.
Interesting observations. I too would love for JD Greer to become President and PROVE by evenhanded appointments that Traditionalists (of which I am one) have nothing to fear from a Calvinist SBC President. The reason we are in the mess we are in today is because when Traditionalists have been in charge of appointments they have been more than evenhanded in their appointments. After all, we have yet to have a Calvinist SBC President. But so far, IMHO, the Cals are relishing a full Reformed takeover of the SBC. They have planned the work and worked their plan with great… Read more »
This post under “Will the SBC be a model of Biblical harmony?” said: “The whole raison d’etre for the Traditionalists is to oppose Calvinists.”
As long as false accusations like this are being made the question “Will the SBC be a model of Biblical harmony?” has already been answered.
The statement is plainly true. There would be no Trad org or statement if there had been no increase in Calvinistic SBCers.
I have yet to see a syllable of criticism of KH.
William wrote: “There would be no Trad org or statement if there had been no increase in Calvinistic SBCers.” True, but that’s not what the statement said, “The whole raison d’etre [purpose] for the Traditionalists is to oppose Calvinists.” See the Purpose Statement of Connect 316(Their first listed purpose is “(a) sharing the gospel within the understanding of our unique doctrinal framework,”) and see my response to Bill below. Brother, maybe you were speaking in hyperbole. But a softer rhetoric like, “A part of the raison d’etre for the Traditionalists is to oppose Calvinists” would be more likely to build… Read more »
This is just Paul being Paul here.
Take a quick scan of the Traditionalist blog. Count how many pro-traditionalist posts there are as opposed to anti-Calvinist posts. William’s statement is undeniably true.
Bill, William’s statement was “The whole raison d’etre [Purpose – Oxford English dictionary] for the Traditionalists is to oppose Calvinists.” You referenced “The traditionalist blog”. Here are their last 10 blog posts: One) the state of America’s spirituality Two) Traditionalists aren’t heretics, it’s wrong for Calvinists to call them that Three) milestones in life Four) A historical case of a Southern Baptist who shifted away from Calvinism Five)keep Baptist identity Six) a life lesson from a grandfather Seven) post on Billy Graham Eight) post on Billy Graham Nine)how Americans can deal with pain 10) is JD Greear a Calvinist? Of… Read more »
Paul,
I’ve been following the blog for years. In my opinion it is difficult to come to any other conclusion than that it exists pretty much solely to oppose Calvinism in the SBC.
Paul, go back another ten to where one of their contributors lays out (in extensive tin foil detail) how Calvinists in charge of the SBC are closet liberals.
The number of posts about Calvinism may not be the best indicator. Would this group exist at all were it not for opposing Calvinism? Can anyone honestly answer that with a “yes”? That I think is the best indicator–and I am not a Calvinist.
William,
I heard somewhere that people sometimes project their own fears or desires onto others.
Is there any evidence that you, as neither a Cal or a Trad, and thus a neutral observer, have seen that points to a Calvinist takeover?
Also, is there any evidence that our former SBC president’s appointed Cals just to be even handed? Or did they just choose the best person they thought?
I actually don’t know the answers to these questions, but I am curious.
Thank you.
William,
I get the impression from this and other posts here that:
If you vote for J. D. Greear, it is because you want the best for the SBC and you are a positive, wonderful, loving, evangelistic follower of Christ.
If you vote for Ken Hemphill, you are a negative, mean, divisive, anti-Calvinist who wants to destroy the SBC.
David R. Brumbelow
Dovetailing with David’s post, I wanted to ask if there has been anything explicitly negative (formally or informally) said about Hemphill? If so, I’d like to know the specific sources.
David, You must not be reading that “other” baptist blogs or paying attention to certain “Traditionalist” internet groups then – as it’s pretty clear they contend a vote for JD is clearly a vote for handing over the SBC to a supposed Calvinist tyrants as well as essentially being a vote for the immediate extinction of the SBC…this is coordinated with memes, flyers and podcasts, press releases and interviews with a state convention whose initials are LA – and I don’t mean Los Angeles… I’ve yet to see such coordinated vitriol aimed personally at Hemphill – people have contended, as… Read more »
I think no one cares if you vote for Hemphill. I just don’t think it is necessary to denigrate Greear to try to get Hemphill to win. Maybe you aren’t doing it, but it’s being done.
David, you said it’s been implied around here that
“If you vote for Ken Hemphill, you are a negative, mean, divisive, anti-Calvinist who wants to destroy the SBC.”
That’s not true. No one has said (or implied) voting for Ken Hemphill makes you any of those things. But I will say those who are campaigning for Ken Hemphill by running down J. D. Greear are all of those things.
David, you didn’t get that from me. I like the guy but think a generational change will be good.
Actually William, I did get it from you.
David R. Brumbelow
Let’s see the quote David. I’m not accepting that. Show me, I’ll correct. Get
William,
My reply, and the quotes, are below.
David R. Brumbelow
Is that what YOU think David? Because I’ve not seen ANYONE here say a word against Ken Hemphill. I’ve seen plenty of people bemoan the lies being told to slander JD, but I’ve not seen a single person slander Dr. Hemphill. Granted, I was in Africa a couple of weeks. I wouldn’t permit it, I can tell you that. I would not permit unfair accusation and slander against Dr. Hemphill. Yes, I fully support JD Greear, but I am not about to seek to win an election through slander, lies, secular political tactics, and other such things. I’ve seen far… Read more »
When Greear wins, I admit, I look forward to the comments from the Traditionalist crowd.
At least the Calvinist can say – “It was predestined!”
As is usually the case, the mention of the significant increase in CP giving to date languishes without comment. While the amounts are not enough for any entity to change much, they are a welcome departure from the usual flat or slightly declining sums. Some folks were worried how the new tax laws would affect church giving.
Any immediate impact from the new tax law would have presumably led to higher-than-normal year-end giving amounts thus contributing to the 5-month CP boost that way. Without a monthly breakdown, it’s hard to tell for sure though. As for 2018 and beyond, it’s too early to tell what negative impact (if any) the new tax law will have. A good economy over the past few years has helped sustain increased CP giving which we can all be thankful for. We are due for a market correction at some point soon (especially now that rates are rising), but hopefully it will… Read more »
As a former state convention CP Strategist, I have long mainained that we use semantics to cover the fact that CP giving is steadily declining. If you will notice, when a state or national entity wants to “spin” CP giving positivily, they will report that CP giving is above last years giving. Sounds good but last years giving was down when compared to actual giving (and has for the last 25 years). So … to be up in comparison to last year’s giving means that overall the total amount givin is still decreasing.
All this talk about the possibility of a Calvinist becoming the next SBC president is laughable because J. D. isn’t a Calvinist. Just read his own statement on this issue. Lol! Also, I am uncomfortable when a guy takes other brothers to court. However, I don’t think it is out of the realm of possibility that he was denied employment elsewhere because others at NAMB hindered his employment opportunities. I know a very godly man who has taught at one of our SBC seminaries and colleges and he has now been without a job for 3 years because so called… Read more »
Is it running down Greear to say that He has been associated with ACTS 29 in the past for many years, that he would align with a reformed soteriological viewpoint, that his church (by his own admission) would not necessarily know much of their Baptist identity and affiliation, or that “Stop asking Jesus into your heart” was a book he authored that many may not agree with? Attributing facts to someone is not necessarily impugning said person’s character…..
I see “Stop Asking Jesus into Your Heart” brought up a lot, but I feel the need to ask: Have you actually read the book? I actually had the same reaction to it as you did when I first heard the title, but having read the book now, I realized that wasn’t what Greear was saying in the book. It’s not a full-on, no-holds-barred assault on the Sinner’s Prayer. The core of the book is actually a call to rest in the finished work of Christ on our behalf as the basis of our assurance of salvation. It’s not saying,… Read more »
Yeah – It’s obvious that those who are saying “stop asking Jesus in your heart” is a Calvinist manifesto/screed against the sinners prayer have not read the book or are Simply being (to be charitable!) disingenuous so as to forward an agenda…
Those really are the only two choices…they really are.
Additionally -Those Who argue it is a Calvinist manifesto have either not read or are intentionally ignoring the forward of the book that is written by one *Dr. Paige Patterson*…nor, for that matter, read or are ignoring for agenda purposes the recommendations by other non-cals.
No, Kevin, it is willful self-delusion.
You have been told repeatedly and authoritatively that JD has not been involved with Acts 29 for about 8 or 9 years.
That is absolutely not true. Where you came up with those numbers of 8-9 years is an absolute mystery to me. It could be true, but that would mean that people who are actual reporters have been getting it wrong in their reporting since at least 2016 as far as the affiliation with Summit Church and ACTS 29. I will admit it is possible, but this is the first time I have heard those numbers. And this is not meant with malice, but should I accept what you say as “authoritative” because you say it, because I have seen no… Read more »
on June 15, 2016, Christianity Today said, “Summit is a member of the Acts 29 church planting network…”
http://www.christianitytoday.com/news/2016/june/southern-baptists-pick-president-steve-gaines-j-d-greear.html
The link they give no longer shows this. It seems that sometime after the last time Greear ran for president (less than 21 months ago) he left Acts 29.
On March 18, 2016, Dee Parsons’ blog had a similar statement connecting Greear with Acts 29 but the link no longer shows this.
William, I based my first comment, in part, because of these comments: “If J. D. Greear desires to serve as president one would think he would be unopposed, but then, we’ve got the anti-Calvinist crowd to think about… Plodder’s wishful prediction: Greear will feel led to be nominated and will be unopposed… My best hope is for only a modicum of pre election rancor… The presidential election will show us something. If it is hotly contested, sans parallel at least since the hot days of the CR, we’ll be in for some grief… if the Trads go en masse on… Read more »
So just to be clear
The calvinists who are taking over are the same ones who graciously stepped aside when Gaines won in order to not cause division?
Just asking for clarity
Glenn, this has to be the most sound comment I’ve ever read on this site.
No Calvinists stepped aside when Greear lost.
Perhaps. It depends on who you’re talking to.
It is the same Calvinists, however, that rejoiced over the unity Greear displayed when he conceded. Not one Calvinist thought that the SBC was going to be in utter shambles because he had lost.
Moreover, Calvinists are are happy with Gaines. (i.e. Gaines was installed as a visiting Professor of SBTS this past year–a supposed institution that only hires 5 point Calvinists).
John stop upsetting the conspiracies with facts! How dare you bring actual data into this conversation! LOL Brother you are spot on. No one who is a Cal saw Gaines as a threat. I like Greear not because of his theology, but because of who he is and how he conducts himself. Not to mention he would represent a new generation taking the reigns of the SBC. That’s a good thing. I still contend that the Trad objections, although partially about theology, are mainly due to not getting the “power” that many of them expected for being spear carriers for… Read more »
Ryan, “I think the Trads know if they lose this election, their chance to lead is gone.” With this statement, you’re admitting that there is a Calvinist takeover and it confirms the suspicions of everyone in the anti-Greear camp. I don’t have a problem with Greear personally. I actually enjoyed reading “Stop Asking Jesus Into Your Heart” a while back. My concerns are that he’s downplayed his church’s SBC affiliation, he’s yet another mega-pastor seeking the top post in the SBC, and he’s associated with new-Calvinist progressives. I think the direction of the SBC is better served with a different… Read more »
“he’s associated with new-Calvinist progressives.”
What does that even mean?
Greear has made it pretty clear that he isn’t a Calvinist. “Progressive” is the most dishonest label in SBC life.
Can you name 3 “new-Calvinist progressives?”
I’ve been, recently, accused of being a “new-Calvinist Progressive.”
I have no idea what it meant. I believe the Bible is inerrant, that people need Jesus, that we have the glorious responsibility of spreading the Word of God, and that without the Holy Spirit working in people’s lives, they won’t come to salvation.
I’m not sure what part of that makes me Calvinist or Progressive. But, that label was given to me recently.
Dan B. That would imply the following: Greear is a Calvinist. He’s not. There is a takeover. There’s not. It’s a natural shift of generational leadership. I was pretty clear in my comment. It’s not about theology. It’s about power. I have been saying that on this blog for 5? years I think. (They all run together at this point.) Once again for the people in the back- Greear is opposed because a certain group of people think they were promised the opportunity to be the heirs to the CR. They aren’t. They are angry. They created the Cal boogeyman… Read more »
Dave,
As I responded to Les in another thread, in a nutshell, new-Calvinist progressives are more leftward on social justice issues. Some names that quickly come to mind are Moore, Piper, Keller, Chandler, Driscoll, and Anyabwile.
I have not seen Greear clearly state that he’s not a Calvinist. I have only seen where he has rejected limited atonement. I believe he is a 4-point Calvinist. Plus, he has been characterized as a Calvinist over the years in various articles and, to my knowledge, has never disputed it.
Could we slow down just a moment on the Trad and Cal conversation for me to say that I am 60 years old. That speaks to where I am generationally. I attended a very conservative Baptist college and SWBTS and NOBTS. To say that my professors where traditional southern baptists is an understatement. BUT they were at least T, U and P and more than a few were I. As a pastor/minister for 40+ years I cannot number the times a mother, or other concerend person asked me to pray “that God would save a wayward child”. Meaning, that they… Read more »
Ryan,
Fair response, though we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
To call those men progressive borders on the absurd.
Again, it is not prescriptive but pejorative.
I like the measuring stick. I start on the extreme right and then call everyone left of me a progressive.
Nice.
Dan,
“Plus, he has been characterized as a Calvinist over the years in various articles and, to my knowledge, has never disputed it.”
So, using that logic, since agenda driven divisive individuals hailing from certain quarters have claimed Hemphill as the recruited candidate they’ve secured to “save the SBC” and he doesn’t deny it – then it must be so?? He’s thier puppet, as they’ve implied – unless he denounces it and them?
Tarheel,
I doubt Ken would admit to being anyone’s puppet of course, but I don’t think anyone doubts that he is the Trads’ recruited candidate.
This is the problem when Christianity gets conflated with right wing politics.
Oh there is no doubt in people’s mind that Hemphill is the candidate of the vocal and divisive trad group out of LA and AL…. But since they are claiming he is on their specific team and all about their agenda… If he does not deny it – he is. Right? My point is that if its fair to say “well people called JD…XYZ… and he did not deny it, so therefore it is true does not one have to also say the same for Mr. Hemphill and the apparent alliances and allegiances? Or, should we take to words of… Read more »
Tarheel, I understand what you’re saying, and I would not expect every leader to respond/confirm/deny every last thing that is said about them. That said, if Ken wants to run as his own man, he should make that clear and separate himself from the Trads and their agenda. But even if he did that, would you believe him and his stated motives? I’m not sure I would in that case. Thus I don’t think he’ll be making any anti-Trad statements in his campaign. Given that Calvinism is a hot topic in the SBC, I think it would be good for… Read more »
So Ken shouldn’t denounce the group that is claiming he is there man… But JD should denounce accusations made against him?? Got it. Would you believe JD If he did you suggest? I am voting for JD for number of reasons – Exactly none of which have anything to do with Calvinism – if however Hemphill were to win the election… You know what? I would be fine with it. Everything I know about the man tells me that he is a godly man and would likely serve us well. Truly seems to me that there is only one side… Read more »
This line of discussion has worn out its usefulness.
Nothing to see here. Let’s move on.
This week I read a quote from HH Hobbs. “I am progressive conservative.” So maybe being a progressive isn’t all bad.
Doug,
Progressive people aren’t traditional and Calvinist people are, well. you know, so you must be doubly bad.
When progressive is used in SBC discussions I wager it is not meant as anything but a pejorative.
Dan B., You replied to Ryan’s statement: “I think the Trads know if they lose this election, their chance to lead is gone.” with… “With this statement, you’re admitting that there is a Calvinist takeover and it confirms the suspicions of everyone in the anti-Greear camp.” Brother, can I point out that your logic is seriously flawed. It is not based, first of all, on an accepted premise that can be proven. Neither is your conclusion consstent with your premise. Third, I doubt that you speak for, or know the thoughts of, every one in the anti-Greear camp. But if… Read more »
David, I’m interested in your impressions but don’t think you are justified in blaming my stuff for them. I think that some anticals are destructive for the SBC.
FYI
Tweeted by Tom Ascol:
My Cuban pastor friend has let me know that, largely due to the influence of a key denominational servant in the Western Baptist Convention in Cuba, the convention voted today to remove all of the pastors & churches who preach the doctrines of grace. Pray for these brothers.
A falsehood about Ken Hemphill has been spoken of here at least two times. A false rumor that Ken Hemphill was fired or pressured out of the presidency of SWBTS: “Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary President Kenneth S. Hemphill denied a report by the Texas Baptist Standard that his retirement from the Fort Worth, Texas, seminary was prompted by an ultimatum from a small group of SBC leaders, calling the allegation ‘speculation that borders on libel.’” http://www.bpnews.net/15792 In this BP news article (4-24-AD 2003), Ken Hemphill Jimmy Draper Paige Patterson Morris H. Chapman Miles Seaborn, SWBTS trustee chairman at the time,… Read more »
First of all, both of the published stories about that incident in no way besmirch Ken Hemphill’s reputation. You can choose to believe the official story if you want, but other published reports are out there as well. Dr. Hemphill is not the VILLAIN in that story but the VICTIM. But we are saying NO MORE about that story. IT has been bandied about quite enough. There are two versions of the facts – both have been put into print. You choose what you wish to believe. That subject is closed here. Dr. Hemphill is not damaged whichever published version… Read more »
Glad you saw all this.
I haven’t brought this up and don’t think it profitable. It is a falsehood to say he was fired. It’s not to say there was pressure.
He’s a great guy. Has served well. Let’s drop this.
While we’re at it, let’s also drop snide remarks about JDG being “stealth” anything.
We’ve got a contested election. Perhaps the conversation can be elevated.
Yes, lets elevate it.
For those who support brother Hempbill:
What do you think his best qualities are that will enable him to tackle the various situations he would encounter as president?
I made an offhanded comment a few weeks ago and some Virginia pastor went on a rampage all across social media accusing me of lying and attempting to belittle Dr. Hemphill – which was the furthest thing from the truth.
I believe I know what happened, but there’s no point in arguing it anymore. Neither of two published stories calls Hemphill’s character into question.