When Prayer is Propaganda

We are in agreement, Joe.

John

I don’t believe in prison time for child abuse. Execution maybe, public castration, maybe, but not a few years in jail.

Unfortunantly, I know that castration (public, private, surgical, chemical, etc.) does not always work because sexual crimes are not always about sex; sometimes they are about power or control, and in those cases, the presence or absence of genitalia is not the controling issue. In Talladega, the building that served as the town’s police department until about 1971 (and was then torn down, with some difficulty, it was so sound structurally) had previously been the County Jail, built in the mid-1800s. In the radio room, you could still see the trap door in the ceiling where hangings took place.

I am not proud that I have abused prayer at times, and since recognizing it, have tried to refrain from that. I admire your introspection in this issue too. We don’t get any “better,” we don’t get forgiveness or effectiveness until we recognized our own faults and shortcomings, and confess them to God. What’s worse, is that it is generally harder to get forgiveness from ourselves than it is from God.

John

“I don’t believe in prison time for child abuse. Execution maybe, public castration, maybe, but not a few years in jail.”

John Fariss,

I always “believed” you were a fine Christian gentleman, scholar and all around stand up guy. Now I “know” that I am absolutely correct in my assumption. May your tribe increase!!

My all-time favorite teacher was Mr. Palmer, taught 8th grade English. Seems to be a great guy; helped me be a better writer and got a few of us interested in computers and technology. When we were in the 9th grade, Mr. Palmer was arrested for aggravated sexual assault of a minor. We, of course, had a hard time believing the accusations.

But then there were pictures and videos of our former English teacher with one of his new 8th grade students who he was supposedly acting as a “father figure” to.

Dude pled guilty, went to prison, but was released before any of us could graduate from college! Disgusting.

Even better, let the father of the victim handle it. I know letting someone take their revenge is wrong and I shouldn’t even suggest something like that. However, if I knew some lowlife had molested some man’s kid and I saw that man beating the ever lovin’ snot out of him I can promise you I’m going to have a sudden memory loss if I get questioned by the cops as to what I saw.

stay on topic

I like it. I have a nice Colt New Service Revolver (circa 1910), 7.5 inch barrel, chambered for a .45 Long Colt cartridge. That makes a .45 APC look like a .22. I was always a pretty good shot, but if a slug from that even whizzes close to a pedophile’s genitals, it’ll burn ’em off. And shotguns and old knives are easy to come by.

John

Razor blades, two sixteen penny nails, a hammer and a small bottle of lighter fluid are also inexpensive and there are tree stumps in all the woodlands and swamps of North America.

John,…..Bob,…..I can see this thing coming together.

Do either one of you know how to sing? I think our theme song should be that Toby Keith-Willie Nelson song, “Whiskey For My Men, Beer For My Horses.” 🙂

oh my goodness… Christiane, do you honestly think that people in the churches dont have a fervor to get pedophiles out of the churches? Really? I can guarantee you that if a pedophile came into my church, and we found out about it; well, the law would probably have to be called to save the life of the pedophile.

And, Christiane, in a post about the wrong kind of praying, why do you seek to make this another comment thread about the big, bad, Southern Baptist leaders out there, who dont care about child molestors….especially the scary fundies that led the CR? Is that not where you’re trying to go with this comment? once again? for the umpteenth time?

I’m sorry, I’m just sick of hearing this stuff.

David

Hi DAVID,

something is wrong when victims are blamed, and told ‘not to go to the police’ and put up in front of congregations to say that they are ‘sinners’, because they became pregnant (under-age, of course) by their predator-pastor-abuser.

something is wrong when organizations that try to speak for victims of abuse are called ‘evil-doers’ by those in authority in the SBC

and something is wrong when people are castigated for speaking up about ‘something BEING wrong’, David.

Take a look, if you dare, and see if you can justify the examples given on this site:

http://stopbaptistpredators.org/collusion_institutions.html

Would be Christian if the Church could adopt some standards that would prevent the kinds of abuses and the kinds of collusion mentioned on that site, and on so many other sites.

David, I really DON’T UNDERSTAND. I’m telling the truth when I say that.

Christine, The problem is that if we disagree with Ms. Brown in anyway then we are not on board. I do have a question: How do we know that her attempts to contact leaders (SBC) is word for word as she tells it. How do I know that her encounter with Richard Land was exactly as she tells it. I concur with CB, and others. However, Debbie’s style of dealing with it really makes it hard to work with her and others.

Bill, The difference is “I.” 🙂 The difference I am not 24/7 bashing the SBC. I need help with a sermon illustration…..I need help in general. 🙂

I went to your link. The problem is they she mixes it up real good. Morris Chapman is a judgment statement on her part, I figure she got back because Dr. Chapman did not do what she wanted. The pastor at Sylvia Hills Baptist Church she provides no source so how can we know. Where are her sources?

L’s,

Is the primary need to bash old men that you don’t like or to help endangered children and rescue those who have already been abused?

Answer that question and we can talk.

Why doesn’t Christa post that people have tried to help but she doesn’t want their type of help?

Jeff,

I actually went and located one post on Christa’s blog where I offered to personally help her to connect with pastors in her area (which she ignored) and while doing so I noticed that several others have offered to help, but asked her to tone down her rhetoric and work within the system (but to no avail). Christa is hailed by many as a champion against abuse, but I wonder how much more she could actually have done had she actually worked with pastors, local associations, and state conventions instead of yelling at them? Southern Baptists are always being told that they are known for what they are against instead of what they are actually doing to alleviate suffering. I fear that Christa suffers from the same problem. Meanwhile there are actually efforts underway by faithful Southern Baptists to tackle the problems of sexual abuse in Baptist Churches.

QUOTE “What needs to be done is train DOM’s and state convention workers so that they can in turn train search committees. END QUOTE

Bad approach in my opinion. Inserting their authority where it does not belong in regard to search committees has created a disaster in California.

It’s starts innocently enough: train the search committee. It soon becomes, get them to call someone we (DOM, State) approve of. Churches should do what my predecessor did: offer names for the committee to consider (one at a time) and then let the church make the final decision.

Of course, this method works much better when the pastor is retiring after 37 years with the church 🙂

SSBN, You are correct about DOM’s. I have a great one in my area, but I am leary of letting them have too much power in the local church, however, we need to do something!

SSBN and Jeff,

I understand your concerns, but almost every Church in our area consults with the local DOM’s on their pastor search process. From what I understand this is fairly regular practice. I’m not advocating more of it, but my point is that we might as well use the structure already in place to train pastor search committees how to avoid hiring those who are or may be sex offenders.

D.R. Randle, unfortunately the only persons (and there have been many) who have been eliminated in the search committees led by my previous DOM was anybody who claimed to be conservative.

No — as in zero — child abusers were discovered in the process in my 5 year tenure — only conservatives.

You do as you wish: I’ll continue to fight for local church autonomy.

This is in reply to comment #64 by SSBN:

” . . . unfortunately the only persons (and there have been many) who have been eliminated in the search committees led by my previous DOM was anybody who claimed to be conservative.”

SSBN is lying. He keeps making claims about his former DOM that are simply not true. (How does a DOM lead a search committee, anyway?) If it were true, how could SSBN have been called to my former church on Main St? I almost wish it were true. Then maybe church attendance would not have gone from 120 upon his (SSBN) arrival to 10 upon his departure.

I do not know where he gets his information, but if he is lying about this, what else does he lie about?

Hi JOE,

Am I misunderstanding you.
Are you saying that, because if in the SBC, leaders know that a man is a monster, and they DO NOTHING, that they are absolved of all responsibility, as the monster goes from one Church to another?

Don’t you think that knowledge (knowing someone is a monster) involves at least a MORAL responsibility?

Of COURSE, the bishops who moved predators around to different parishes were terribly wrong to do it, but they did it actively, all the while knowing that the new parish had no clue what they would be dealing with. So they were ACTIVELY placing a predator, and they were PASSIVELY keeping it a secret from the new parishioners.

But in the SBC, what case is there morally for responsibility left undone, when a ‘leader’ is aware from many reports about a predator, and tells the victims to ‘keep it quiet’, and then says nothing to warn a new Church about the wolf soon to prey on their innocent?
That PASSIVE lack of action on that leader’s part is not morally acceptable, is it Joe?

No, what I am saying is that no one in SBC leadership took Pastor Whatshisname out of one church and put him in another church because there is no mechanism to do that in the SBC. I most certainly did not say if Dr. X knew that Pastor Y had molested a child in a church and that Pastor Y was up for a gig in another church that Dr. X should not inform that new church.

THANK YOU!!!!

So you acknowledge the need for
a way that those leaders in the SBC who KNOW
can alert those in Churches who DON’T KNOW.

🙂

You got it, Christiane. You see what’s real.

Um, condecending much?

Cause of course anyone who would be critical of Christa Brown or Cough-man can’t possibly be a Christian. After all, real Christians are theologically moderate to liberal. They certainly are those mean old hateful fundy’s that actually believe salvation is through repentance from sin and faith in Christ exclusively**, right?

**Before I forget, I better add that caveat that you require to spell it out for you–“…assuming they do not suffer from some sort of mental imparement that would prevent them from understanding the gospel (i.e. someone who is retarded)”. Everyone else knows I mean that, but I wanted to make sure I spelled it out for you since you don’t.

They certainly are should have read They certainly aren’t.

When did it become ‘Christian’ for someone who disagrees with another person to attempt to discredit them by telling lies?

Wow.

And now on this comment stream, we have a ‘Bess’ and a ‘bess’.
So we are ‘twice-bessed’ 🙂

Tell ya what, I’ll answer that question if you’ll answer this one. Can a person who is able to think, reason, and understand (i.e. not retarded) go to heaven apart from repentance from sin and faith in Jesus Christ alone?

“Tell ya what, I’ll answer that question if you’ll answer this one. Can a person who is able to think, reason, and understand (i.e. not retarded) go to heaven apart from repentance from sin and faith in Jesus Christ alone?”

Are you referring to ‘faith’ alone?
Or Jesus Christ “alone”? The positioning of the word ‘alone’ is semantically important, Joe.

As far as salvation by faith ‘alone’, I can answer for Catholics, Joe, this:
As the Bible says, we are already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but we are also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and we have the hope that we will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15).
Like the apostle Paul we are working out our salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).”

We are ‘already saved’:
Romans 8:24
Ephesians 2:5-8

we are also ‘being saved’:
1 Cor. 1:18
2 Cor. 2:15
Philippians 2:12

and we have the ancient Christian hope that we WILL BE saved:
Romans 5:9-10
1 Cor. 3:12-15

Like the Apostle Paul, Catholic people are working out their salvation in fear and trembling: Philippians 2:12,
with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Romans 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11-13)

As to all the children of Adam and Eve, I entrust them to the mercy of Christ the Lord in all things. He IS the Savior. He ‘makes all things new’.
For some, the choice they make may be to live eternally not in the Presence of the Lord. (you call this ‘hell’, I think)
But I do believe this, Joe: that grace is extended to ALL the descendants of Adam and Eve. And any who do reach out to the Lord, will come to Him because of that undeserved grace. In their reaching out, I believe that they will be met with the Divine Mercy of Christ, and embraced by Him like the prodigal son.

How Christ will do this, we cannot now know completely, as we are told we are seeing but a ‘poor reflection’ still:
“12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.”

Perhaps I have answered your question using the Scriptures, so that you might begin to understand in a way that fits in with your honoring of Holy Scripture.

No quick ‘sound bites’ Joe, sorry.
Not today.

I meant faith alone in Christ alone. It is faith alone that saves but the faith that saves is not alone.

“I meant faith alone in Christ alone. It is faith alone that saves but the faith that saves is not alone.”

Joe, remember always these words from from Isaiah 55 before you go to sit in judgment on other people’s salvation:

“8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the LORD.

9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher
than your ways
and my thoughts
than your thoughts.”

L’s,

The question in #77?

L’s

Remember these words from John 14:6

Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

There is nothing in any way shape form or fashion in that passage you ripped out of context in Isaiah that suggests or implies even for an instant that God hasn’t been 100% crystal clear that salvation is only through Jesus Christ.

“Twice-bessed.” Love your humor, Christiane. I think you see what’s real and what’s not.

Thanks L’s!!!

Joe finally get his answer to his broken record constant comment.

I totally agree with you–and thanks for doing the detailed homework I don’t have time for.

Joe won’t change, I’m afraid. He loves to be the playground bully too much!!

Sad—so sad!

Christiane, I’m not sure where you received your degree in N.T. Greek, but it your interpretation of Romans 8:24 is not found in any Greek source I’m aware of.

Then again, I’m not really sure what you mean by the term “already saved,” but I suspect it is not substantiated by the indicative aorist in the passage.

Gene S.

You are a moron. That, by the way, is not my personal opinion but rather a professional observation.

Prayer for Joe:

Dear God—

Please make all bad people good—and all good people nice!

Joe,

I concur. Did you by any chance read Gene’s way of handling abusers and teens? I posted it in #137 of this thread? Read his comment in #135 first and you will see they hypocrisy.

Itell ya what somethng too

Speakin of retards as Joe Blackmon called em, the fellow who does CBS Sunday Morning chat had great commentary for how retards are abusing the Internets.
Made me think of some people. I hope I find a link soon.

Here it is right here. If it makes you think of anyone you know please name and testify

The Downside of the Internets:

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6795173n&tag=contentMain;contentBody

Joe & cb–

I appreciate your attempt to “turn” my description of the situation at the rural church between a teen and middle-aged man. You try to make me into one ignoring abuse and failing to report it to authorities.

Had the man been a sneaky snake using his maturity and position to seduce the teen, it would have been unquestionably a case for police investigation. HOWEVER, in this case, the girl was more than active in the process because she was craving his attention.

Had I reported it, she had enough distortion in her life to make it appear it was all his fault! How would any man like to be listed as a molester when his head was turned by a flirting teen with ulterior motives?

Not all cases are as simple as you might think. The starting point, for me, is an analysis of what really happened. That analysis led me to act as I did—and it turned out to be redemptive in the long haul. I think Jesus did the same with the woman caught in the act of adultery / brought to him on the verge of stoning / forgiven when he confronted the sinfulness of all holding rocks.

Your distortions are beyond compare. I don’t need to take it and I won’t. It is nothing but a diversion for the shameful way you have treated Christa Brown as she advocates for control of molesters among ordained clergy in the SBC.

Why don’t you both (and some of your fiends) quit the collusion and distortion??? It contributes nothing but a clearer picture of how closet meetings and mob mindset have destroyed the SBC since 1979. You are just feeding off one another’s hard-hearted view of the faith.

Gene Scarborough,

You have no real concept of what you have done do you? That is just pitiful.

I’ll tell you what Gene. I have a lot of family and friends in NC. I am thankful you no longer serve as a pastor there.

Please continue to work among the trees and please never again take up the position as shepherd to a local church.

You allow the wolves to roam too freely.

Gene, statutory rape is statutory rape. What’s really sad is that if you know Christa’s story her abusers seemed to describe her just like the girl in Gene’s situation. So Gene thinks a teeanage girl can be just as guilty as the married adult? Where’s “Joseph” to give ol Gene an attaboy?

Bess,

I had wondered about the “Silence of Joseph” upon the revealing story “Gene and the Wolf” myself.

It is a rather strange silence one must admit.

CB, according to Gene’s reasoning Christa’s abuser would not be someone he wound want on a database.

Lot’s of curious things going on here. I’m just wondering how many people are connecting all the dots.

Bess: ARe you a real person or a composite.
If you are for real I got to commend you for a great phrase “wet Mess”. Hadn’t heard that colloquialism before but for sure if you are tellling the truth; your Grandmother must been a whammy.

Stephen, Bess is short for Elizabeth. Granny who was actually great granny was Mavis Elizabeth. She had very little formal education but a wisdom that seems to be increasingly lost to this world. As Granny would say “some folk ain’t got the sense God gave a turnip.”

Bess: I can not agree with your fundamentalism, but I have to admit I like the family names.
Mavis just sets the whole thing off.
My grandmother only had a 2nd grade education, but as her son Fremont and my Uncle Said, if she had gotten to Rome, Ga before the woman living in a two million dollar estate she drove passed everytime she went to town from her small farm about five miles out; she woulda run the place.
I think you should join me and CB Scott in reading Ron Rash. You’re gonna love him, talking about the shank of the day, right before full dark.
Start with One Foot in Eden and go from there.
As I’ve told RAsh, if my grandmother had lived long enough for me to read one of his stories to her, she woulda said That’s exactly the way it happenned.

L’s I’m a Christian which may be confusing to you since you’ve demonstrated time and again that you have no clue what that means. And L’s the jig is up on Christa Brown so calling me a liar isn’t exactly going to help her out. How sick is that? Some people think the Great Commission actually matters. But some people don’t care abou potential damage to the SBC and that’s where they reveal their true hearts.

What these posts here at SBC voices prove is that in spite of the rantings of bitter emotionally disturbed women something is actually be done about sexual abuse in the SBC. People are aware and they talking and taking action. Is it perfect? No, but average every day church members are talking and looking at ways to make our churches safer. Now what irks, irritates, makes someone like Christa Brown and the Enid crew insane is that people want to protect children and protect the SBC’s ability to carry out the Great Commision to lost souls like L’s.

I don’t think that telling lies to discredit Christa is behavior worthy of anyone who bears the name of ‘Christian’.
Telling lies about Christa also reflects VERY poorly on any claim of support for the advancement of the Great Commission, which was given by Our Lord to his disciples and handed down through the centuries.

You need to reconsider your ‘tactics’, if you want to maintain credibility, even among your own denomination, and I am sure of that.

How strange it is that telling lies is now seen by some as acceptable ‘Christian’ behavior. Where does this come from?
And don’t say ‘the Holy Scriptures’.
And it certainly isn’t in the BF&M 2K either.

Where does the acceptance of this behavior come from?
Is it on the increase?
And who is sanctioning it? And who is supporting it?

I’m not lying and your calling me a liar doesn’t make it so.

“tactics” just makes laugh considering the ” tactics” of taking such a serious issue as this to bash the SBC.

L’s I just had this great idea on how we can solve this issue right here right now. Everybody can agree we want to make churches safer for the children. Where the big disagreements come is when people are recommending things that will actually hurt the SBC and prevent the SBC from performing it’s actual purpose of carrying out the Great Commission. So here’s what you do L’s you go to all your buddies who just wanna help children and not destroy the SBC to explain how a national database will in no way be able to be a tool to hurt the SBC or have your buddies admit they don’t care how much damage can be done to the SBC or they concede that yes damage could be done and so we should do everything in our power to protect children and protect the SBC so it can carry out it’s purpose. So you go do that little thing and then post the links so everybody knows exactly where everyone stands.

L’s,

I asked you this question last evening in the post on Orlando. You obviously missed it because it was a fair question. I will post it here in hope that you give it an honest answer.

L’s,

I am curious. Did you read through the comment thread on Tony’s child abuse post? If you did, I think you would be willing to agree that the comments give evidence that many of these guys are very concerned about child abuse in Baptist life and desire to see some constructive action take place to protect the children God has placed in our watch.

Anyway, I hope you see that to be the case.

L’s: I agree with Christa. You definitely can see who is real and who is not. I think they could learn a thing or two from you and hopefully not vice versa. That would include in prayer. It’s sad that they even attempt to use this to shut you up. You are just doing too good a job showing them what you see L’s. Keep up the good work friend. And contrary to what Bess thinks, I can read and so can Christa. When Bess begins to take both prayer and clergy sexual abuse seriously maybe we can listen to her. Maybe. 🙂

BTW CB and Joe,Bess: Considering you are more bullying the “Gospel” than giving it to her, I don’t think she owes you an answer ever. Like Tom you seem to want to take a rubber hose and beat it out of a person. Sorry fellas that isn’t the Great Commission and it’s certainly a good example of Propaganda, like Bill’s prayer was so at least you are keeping in line with the post. Although it is kind of scary to think there may be a female version of CB and Joe out there going by the name of Bess, I guess it shows when you think you have seen it all….thankfully it’s not the Biblical version of Christianity.

Debbie,

Since you are here, did you read through the comment thread on Tony’s child abuse post? If you did, I think you would be willing to agree that the comments give evidence that many of these guys are very concerned about child abuse in Baptist life and desire to see some constructive action take place to protect the children God has placed in our watch.

Tell me what you think in regard to reading about guys who know there is a problem and what to see something done.

I read it CB and was greatly encouraged by what I read.

Debbie,

I am glad to hear that. I too was encouraged. Maybe something constructive can happen in Baptist life that will help curb this terrible thing Andrew Vachss calls, “The Children of the Secret.”

I hope so CB. I think it’s the greatest gift we could give our children. It shows they are precious to us and matter.

A-Men

Gosh darn it you guys didn’t ask Debbie if it was ok to talk about sexual abuse in Baptist churches. Debbie get’s to decide who can discuss the issue because she’s the only one in all blogdom who truly understands Biblical Christianity and humilty for that matter. Anyone who thought the nutcase blogger reference were about Debbie should just ignore that too and they posts which say that Christw Brown says it’s her way are no way. Ignore that too cause that might insinuate those ladies are losing crediabilty to speak on this issue. Debbie Coughman herself has spoken and she will decide who is allowed to comment. Also just ignore the fact that those ladies don’t care about any damage to the SBC a national database will cause thus damaging the SBC’s ability to carry out the great commission. What a little thing like the Great Commission when the chillllllrin are involved.

CB, Joe the jig is up which one of you is really Paige Patterson and who’s Ergun? It’ s a conspiricy ya know.

Bess–

I’m getting strange vibes in your comments.

Are you really a female–or Joe Blackmon’s fake female who has the same harsh attitudes toward any whom you oppose????

I would think any female would be more sensitive to the cause Christa Brown’s ministry tries to place foremost!!!

True. My own pet topic is staying on topic. But I did kinda turn it towards the topic at hand.

Besides, we all know propaganda prayers are never directed at ourselves.

Hey, how bout those Yankees 🙂

Tommy is undercover now! Special Police 🙂

Jeff T,

LOL. He just ain’t good at it is he? If we were mobsters, we “would done shot ’em” by now!! 🙂 🙂

SSBN says: “I do agree that greater awareness… is needed.”

Me too, SSBN, and that’s a significant part of why I do what I do. Not that long back, the SBC’s top-dog on ethics, Richard Land, was telling the world that, unlike Catholics, Southern Baptists had only “a couple” cases before they “really focused on this” and got a handle on it. And as recently as 2007, SBC president Frank Page was repeatedly making public comments that Southern Baptists had had only “several” cases. And then, of course, there was the rather ridiculous remark by paid SBC spokesperson Will Hall saying “only 40 incidents in 15 years.”

This sort of minimization of the problem is what your own highest leaders were foisting on people in the pews and the public as recently as a few years ago. So … while our efforts may not yet have persuaded Southern Baptists to work cooperatively toward providing churches with a resource for obtaining more reliable and objective information about their ministers, if our efforts have helped to create a “greater awareness” about the true extent of the problem (i.e., an awareness beyond what your own leaders were promoting just a few years ago), then I certainly don’t consider those efforts to have been wasted.

QUOTE your own highest leaders END QUOTE

Well, I guess that sort of ends any kind of productive conversation. Your statement proves to me the truth of what I posted on another blog — you have an “ulterior motive.” You have a deep-seated bitterness that makes you couch all your ideas in an “us versus them” world-view.

Just for the record: you do not determine for me who is, or is not, “my highest leaders.” I’m about as “anti-establishment” as they come. I still smell of the 60’s and early 70’s. I refuse to be painted with your broad brush, or anyone else.

You’re all about punishment and revenge. That will pretty much guarantee you will never reach a concensus on any of your ideas.
I was trying to offer you an olive branch, but instead you prefer the branch of the “whip” o will.

Sometimes I can’t help but wonder if an appearance on Larry King Live is the desired outcome of some folks rather than to really address the problem of child abuse.

Well … okay SSBN … so maybe they aren’t “your” leaders in a personal sense … fine. But they’re still Southern Baptist leaders. I think that’s how most ordinary people would characterize them.

And you might note that, in the next posting (“Does the SBC protect and enable”), Tony Kummer begins by suggesting the possibility that the 2007 SBC Resolution “only came about after critics went after our denomination. It raised awareness … ” So I stand by what I said … I think these efforts have been functional for helping to raise awareness. But of course, much more than a resolution is still needed.

Only Christa Brown deserves any credit for any discussions that are occurring. nothing else going on in the world could possibley have led to these types of discussions at churches, associations, and state coventions. Please ever stand and applaud while Christa takes all the credit and glory for herself. If only she could get that national database maybe Larry King would call.

CB, I think you are “spot on.” I’m convinced that Brown’s crusade has more to do with her, than helping anyone else. As you notice, she never responds to any disagreement someone has with something she says or proposes. She just attacks.

She is definitely sufferng from “victim’s syndrome” which clouds everything she says.

She also resolutely refuses to acknowledge that nobody speaks for an SBC church put a member of a particular SBC church. The fact that she perpetuates that particular myth and uses circular reasoning to support her attack with her myth, tells me what the real agenda is.

It’s all about Crista, the sole crusader and only person who knows the truth — great start for a cult leader.

PS — Do you notice that even when she admits she “might” be mistaken, she never apologizes. She just repeats her mantra.

This makes it impossible to carry on any meaningful conversation with her and people like her.

Yet, if someone would say (as they have) that she is just parroting the words of her “leader” (a disgruntled former trustee), she would be deeply offended. Yet, I have never referenced anyone as speaking for me, and she lumps me in with the likes of “you guys.” Now, that deeply offends me 🙂

Some have referred to the “cult of personality”. A lot of pride involved here.

SSBN: I didn’t say I might be mistaken and I don’t owe you any apology. What I said was that I think most ordinary people would reasonably characterize Frank Page, Richard Land, and Will Hall as being Southern Baptist leaders. But if you don’t want to personally acknowledge them as leaders, as your leaders, as SBC leaders, or as any kind of leaders at all, then that’s your call. But it doesn’t mean that I was mistaken in referring to them on an SBC Voices blog as being “your leaders” — i.e., as leaders of people who are connected to the Southern Baptist Convention.

I can’t even begin to imagine why you would suggest that I myself might have some leader who would be a “disgruntled former trustee.” Trustee of what? Perhaps you’ve got me confused with someone else, or maybe you’re just talking to be talking. Or maybe both.

SSBN – priesthood of the believer is a difficult concept for some.

Gene you’re funny! Where has anyone anwhere denied that there is a problem with sexual abuse in churches or society in general for that matter? And we are all waiting with bated breath for Christa to explain how a national database could in no way no how be used to damage the SBC thus taking away Great Commission resources. Or she can admit she doesn’t care if the SBC can be damage and thus damage the SBC’s purpose of carrying out the Great Commission. And I’m sure anytime now Christa the penultimate expert is going to give us the links where she has detailed ideas and resources to help churches right now today. We’re waiting. Patiently waiting. While some people are just talking to talk. We wait.

Thanks for the laugh Gene!

Bess,

You must be evil to the core. You have brought shame to the heart of a Cretan.

We do try CB. We do try. Meanwhile we wait for answers to unaswered questions.

“Where has anyone anwhere denied that there is a problem with sexual abuse in churches or society in general for that matter?”

You gotta be kidding me!!!

Christa, herself, was abused / reported it / became the target / never got action from her church!

Again, she brought it to the attention of the SBC years ago and got the excuse: “We have no authority over a local church, therefore we can do nothing about it!”

The is not only denial, but an official rebuff and refusal to act!

Question: If the SBC can kick out Broadway Baptist Church in Texas, accusing them of ministering to homosexuals, why is it so impossible to have any official action kicking out any ordained minister proven to be a molester of church members?

At present, we are simply deferring to law enforcement those actions which can–and should–be handled by the local church where the abuse took place.

Moreover, no one is ordained by himself! The same body which granted ordaination has every right + a biblical command–to deal with sin by casting out: if the proven sinner persists after private confrontation / several who know / finally refusing to repent and being cast out of the fellowship (Paul’s clear direction from the NT).

At this point, you are accusing Christa of a self-serving crusade as the excuse you don’t want to listen to her. This is as bad–or worse–than ignoring abuse and failing to deal with it.

I feel great shame that you would think yourself to be a committed follower of Christ–whether you are Baptist / Catholic / Boy Scout advocate / whatever kind of believer or citizen failing to act on abuse!!!!

The act is unlawful. It caused Jesus to advocate a millstone around the neck and casting into the sea.

Where is your brain???

Where is your conscience???

Gene,

I read one of your accounts of how you handled a well known man in your church related to his sexual involvement with a girl in your church who was about the same age as was Christa when she was abused.

According to your own testimony relating to the way you treated that sixteen year old girl in your church upon the revelation as to what happened, it is sheer hypocrisy on your part here to chastise anyone about how Christa’s church treated her.

You told the story on one of Debbie’s post and unless she has erased or will erase it, it is still there. So don’t deny what you said relating of that sixteen year old girl in your church. I challenged you about how you handled it. Lydia also challenged you on it. Gene, your hypocrisy simply knows no bounds and neither do your lies.

Debbie, Christa (Joseph), L’s and others,

Read this story told by your hero Gene Scarborough. He tells you here how to handle sexual abuse in the church. The truth is that Gene and guys like him in ministry are a major part of the problem we face and why it is so hard to get anything done.

Read this story written by a pastor who really knows how to handle abuse in the church.

Gene Scarborough at his pastoral best. He states he had a “steady nerve” and a “biblical basis” for ministry here:

“As a Pastor I seemed to be sent to churches with major problems requiring one with a steady nerve and biblical basis of ministry. Let me share another situation of immorality I faced.

This one involved, of all things, a quiet little country church where I reasoned, “Let’s just have a good time where country people get along—NOT!

In this case a prominent male leader in his 40’s began a affair with another prominent family’s teenage daughter. Actually, she was the seductress and he was a stupid male thinking with the “wrong head.”

It blew up one Sunday afternoon at a lake house. I got a call from the girl’s brother that I was needed badly and he couldn’t say more. I picked up one of our mature women with a relationship to both parties.

As we journeyed to the lake house neither of us could imagine what had happened. Suspicions were brought to the front up there by the girl’s older sister who bluntly called her the “w” word. We came on a scene of deeply hidden sinfulness / a father of the girl wanting to shoot the man and carrying a gun in his truck / a wife humiliated by the stupidity of her husband. On top of that the Mother of the girl played the organ and the wife of the man played beautifully with her on the piano.

Yeah–it’s the musicians again creating havok!!!

I was faced with dealing with each family separately and the 2 sinful ones wanting to talk together with me. Daddy didn’t like the idea, but I assured him it would be a time of confronting reality with these 2.

They were so in lust that nothing I said made any difference. They could care less whom they had hurt and were not interested in confessing anything!

I was in a serious dilemma in a church which could blow apart because of family connections and people taking sides as they heard the story. The Deacons were sitting on their hands offering no help.

I called a female minister at an ajoining church to discuss with her my biblical approach of bringing them both before the church / giving them a chance to ask forgiveness / if not, cast them out!

The female minister gave me a more loving suggestion:

I tried her approach and at the end of the next service asked each member to choose a family to visit right now before going home. To offer to them whatever comfort and love they could, and pray with them.

To make a long story short–it worked! The problem and hurt feelings took several years to ease, but finally the pianist and organist played together again!

I believe the Holy Spirit was working in a powerful way. My female cohort had a better idea, even if it wasn’t totally and simply biblical as Paul taught it.

It was totally biblical as Jesus said, “Love and forgive.”

God handles “hot potatoes” when we can’t and I affirm his work in this small church to bring peace out of chaos!”

Great story of how to handle sexual abuse of a teenage girl in a local Baptist church there Gene. You sure have a “steady nerve” and a “biblical basis” for ministry.

Gene, the truth is, you are nothing more than a blowhard and a hypocrite for coming here and castigating people as you do. It is guys like you Gene Scarborough, that Christa needs to put on her blog because you really do fit the bill she describes as one who goes easy on perps and fails children and teenagers as a shepherd and watchman.

cb—

I fail to understand any of your diatribe!!!

What is the real problem with a biblical handling of a serious moral situation?

The outcome was reconciliation and a church not splitting into a 100 pieces never to be restored.

Why don’t you tell me what you would have done in your omnicient ministerial abilities???

Jeff T,

I think maybe it is because the subjects of both posts are so closely related.

Bess,

Do I know you?

CB, no I don’t believe so. I’ve “lurked” for quite a while on these blogs and this issue has compelled me to come out of lurking. I’ve seen Christa and her followers play this game before. Bill Mac should see some of the blogs where she’s attacked and demonized those who disagree with her National Database witch hunt idea and then how fast she turns around and pulls her victim card.

Bess, You hit the nail on the head. Christa, doesn’t want cooperation, she wants it her way. I commend her for some of the things she is doing, but she gets rather aggressive if we disagree. If Christa, can come up with good ways to tackle this problem, I would be the first to get in line. I would like to recommend her to come to our associational meeting, but I am afraid of how she might react if someone disagrees with her.

Jeff T. I’m waiting for her to post links telling what resources are available right now. She may be feverishly typing it as we speak cause it sure ain’t anywhere on website right now. Christa Brown sings one song with one note – national database or nothing and to heck with any consequences to the SBC. No Christa the poor dear is not known to play nicely when anyone disagrees.

SSBN: See my response to CB. I was talking specifically about the SBC Voices post. Debbie and Christiane had been inserting off topic comments in a number of streams, and finally someone requested a SBC Voices topic on sex abuse in the SBC. It was directly in response to the accusations that the SBC coddles and protects sex abusers.

Bill, I’m aware of that post, but that doesn’t change the fact that a couple seem to think this is something new. It isn’t.

Bill Mac,

If you will remember, I asked Dave Miller to write a post. he did not. Tony Kummer did.

Bill Mac, I have engaged Debbie and others in reference to this issue for a long time now. Every time, without exception, the true subject matter of the post and comment thread was or became the bashing of some or several SBC pastors or entity heads.

The post and comment thread by Tony Kummer has been the best yet in Blogtown. One reason it was good was that for the most part the subject of what to do about child abuse in Baptist life was kept at the forefront of the conversation and personalities were left to themselves. We also did not visit or revisit the CR every other comment.

Bill Mac, if you read the comment thread of the post, you will see when and why it began to fall apart.

I hope it was because of Christa Brown. She has the facts and she is the one who did all the leg work. Whatever the reason doesn’t really matter as long as it is discussed and not just discussed but something done about it. What Christa has brought out in facts and the mentioning of names is important. The reaction given to her, who is also a victim of sexual clergy abuse has been reprehensible and Southern Baptists should be ashamed.

It is always called bashing when the truth and names are brought out. The fact is that the SBC has treated this subject horribly. Those are the facts. I didn’t put the words into these men’s mouths. I didn’t treat Christa badly by shutting her out. They did. I just reported their actions, their words. Bashing? hardly. Wanting this kind of treatment to stop? You bet. Call them to be accountable? You bet.

Truth? Not always, but you did not care for or refused to hear the truth.

Bashing? Most assuredly if the right SBC person was the target.

Level of accomplishment for your efforts? Always attention for you. Nothing to help abused children.

And that is supposed to mean something Bess? Hardly. To say that a national data base would harm the SBC is a irresponsibly ignorant statement that is absolutely false. I would think we would want to do everything in our power to make sure our kids are safe.

Bess that is just a bunch of bologna. Where is your proof that it would damage the SBC. Christa has given statistics, victims of sexual abuse have commented on my blog and have emailed Christa. she has received so many emails that she can’t answer them all.

As for CB talking about this before Christa. I know that he and I began talking about it during the Darrel Gilyard fiasco, and Christa was writing about it even then, so I would say Christa is dong a very good job. She is an expert and worth listening to. What makes me angry about you Bess is that you are tearing down one thing that would be of use to protect our children and the only reason you are doing it is because it is me. Not because it makes sense for you to do so cause frankly it doesn’t and each year that we do not have a National data base is another year a child is abused. Is that worth it just because you hate me for whatever reason? You are like a female Joe Blackmon. In fact I think you may be Joe Blackmon.

What makes me so angry about this Debbie is that you have hijacked an issue that you nothing but blog about when othersare actually out in the real world doing something about it. The only way this concerns you is your clear hatred of all things SBC and you are hanging on to the very thing the SBC is not going to do. You hang Debbie not to be of any but because it’s a way you can continue your vitriol and attacks against the SBC. Let’s see how many lawyers have tried to explain it to you in simple terms that a database will damage the SBC and yet you still want to deny it? Here’s the question Debbie. IF. Big If Debbie pay attention here IF your sacred cow of the database is thought by legal experts to be able to be used as a tool to damage the SBC do you do it anyway? Real simple. Some people like you and Christa think everybody in the SBC is evil and the Great Commission doesn’t really matter and all those mean evil men deserve to be taken down and the SBC with it. Some us think that God has does and will work through the SBC. What should be perfectly clear now is how anybody who disagrees with a database is demonized. There are all kinds of reasons why real live people not blogging believe that a database won’t work. But those discussions won’t happen because when the heat is turned up on why a database is a bad idea, well that ol’ victim card gets played to shut down the debate. Christa is a victim! She’s the expert! What she says is absolute gospel! You cannot question her because she’s a victim! What these posts have proven is that a) there are those like Debbie and Christa who hate all things SBC and are using the issue if a database to bash and demonize and b) we know this is true because they have no evidence that they have added anything to this discussion except The SBC is evil they won’t do a database.

“And for the record Bill you didn’t look very hard if you think I’ve contributed nothing”

You are correct. I shouldn’t have said that, and I apologize.

But this conversation is degenerating rapidly, which is a shame because it started well, and went well for a long time, a much longer time than has been typical for this blog. In the short time you’ve been posting, you do seem to be the anti-Christa, so take that as constructive criticism for what it may be worth.

Debbie and Christiane: What are your other ideas besides a national database? This post isn’t about Christa Brown (or didn’t start that way). It’s about protecting people. The database idea has been debated. It has adherents and detractors. What else have you got?

Bill Mac, thank you for your apology. I know that I have not handled this well, but perhaps if not forgiveness can be given then at least understanding. A national database is a dead issue for the SBC. It is not going to happen. If you happen know any of the lawyers or the judges if the SBC you might understand why. The fact that a database isn’t going to happen doesn’t mean that the 44,000 churches are all full of evil men and nothing is being done. There are a lot of resources and there is a lot of work being done across the SBC. The darkness in the world is getting darker. It’s a tough job. But God is good all the time and we are making a difference. Hopefully, those lurking as I did previous to this will see is who are those serious about protecting children and who are those who only want to hurt the SBC. It’s really not that hard to discern.

No. I’m not Joseph. I’ve written a lot. I’ve been very public. I use my name. I use my full name. And I use my real name. That’s more than I can say for “Bess” … or is it “bess” … or is it “Randy” or is it “Dorothy”?

There’s nothing weird about the fact that many Baptist clergy abuse survivors have similar stories. The patterns are similar — that’s the problem. They keep repeating themselves. I wish I had a dollar for everytime someone has read my book and written me to say something along the lines of “Your story is my story.”

Not only are the patterns of abuse similar — i.e., the use of the kid’s own faith as a weapon and the use of Scripture as a weapon — but so too are the sometimes-even-more-devastating patterns of what happens later — i.e., the hostile and do-nothing responses that the kid gets when he grows up and reaches the point that he wants to try to tell people about it.

I’ve been very clear that I’ve never said “national or nothing.” But I do think that, as a faith community with a shared identity, Southern Baptists must find a way to responsibly and compassionately listen to those who have been wounded within the faith community. This is so, not only for purposes of prevention, but also for ministry and moral obligation.

Most child molesters have more than one victim and most victims are typically incapable of speaking about it until much later in life. These 2 realities mean that one of the most effective ways to prevent child molestation in the future is to institutionally listen to those who are trying to tell about abuse in the past.

That’s the prevention side of things. But I also believe that the faith community has a moral obligation to reach out to those who have been so horribly wounded within the faith community and to attempt to minister to them. One way to help them is to simply have a safe place and a system for hearing them. The church of the accused perpetrator will almost never be a safe place for the wounded person. Telling clergy abuse survivors to go to the church is like telling them to go to the den of the wolf who savaged them. It will never work. And it’s not because church people are bad . . . it’s because they’re human . . . and humans have a huge capacity for denial when ugly allegations involve someone they know and trust. An outside resource is essential.

Joe—

Let’s keep it simple: You are fulla bulla!!!!!

That which you cannot debate away, you distort away!!!!