I was driving my kids to school this morning when the news segment came on K-LOVE. Usually it’s cut and paste from Associated Press, but today they ran a story asking for prayer against the website WikiLeaks. According to them, Christians should join together to ask God to intervene against this “radical” news source. They cited the upcoming release of more documents about the war in Afganistan saying this could be dangerous for the US military and civilian informants.
Here’s my problem. This approach to journalism turns prayer into a tool for controlling public opinion. Never mind if WikiNews is exposing a government coverup or actually telling us the truth about this war. This story on K-LOVE is an attempt to bypass any real thinking about the issue. It’s as if pray is the password that shortcuts any rational evaluation. Just ask for prayer and Christians will support your cause.
Did anyone pray that God would suppress the truth about Watergate?
What about Vietnam?
This reminds me of the disgruntled deacon who wanted to discredit his pastor. Instead of the normal tactic of private slander he offered a prayer request. “I think we need to pray for Pastor Joe, we all know he’s been struggling lately. Let’s just pray that God will help him work out his anger issues. I don’t want to spread rumors, but keep his wife & kids in your prayers too.”
Certainly the issues raised by WikiLeaks are more complicated than a 30 second news clip. But this wasn’t news after all, just a propaganda prayer request.
What other examples have you seen like this? Leave a comment.
The source behind the K-LOVE story was the “Presidential Prayer Team” which has been profiled by snopes.com. In case you haven’t guessed, Fox News has been critical of WikLeaks.
I have been in church prayer meetings where asking for prayer was a way to gossip. “Oh, we need to pray for Ida Lou. She sure has took t’drinking real heavy like and she stays over at that Johnson boy’s place a lot lately. Her poor husband don’t got a clue. We need to payr for them”. The point was to spread word about what Ida Lou was doing rather than expressing any concern over her need to repent.
JoeB and I find common ground.
I have been in those same prayer meetings; and choir practice seemed to know no end on occasion when the women got to praying,coding the latest sins in the community they had to be sure everyone knew about to keep the lines defined between Us and Them.
I’m sure propaganda prayers have been said over me, although I cannot think of any just now. There are times I have prayed before the congregation in a way to communicate my point of view on some subject (usually a program I wanted the church to adopt), and I was really speaking to the congregation rather than to God. Although it wasn’t to spread gossip, I am afraid that may qualify as propaganda prayer.
On the other hand, we all remember Wiley Drake’s “impecatory prayers” that President Obama would die, and I suspect that qualifies as propaganda prayer, though no doubt Wiley would deny it.
John
I remember a story from the 60’s in the Floyd County Baptist Association where there was some conflict and Forrest Lanier called on a brother to pray for some easing of tensions, and before he could pray another brother rose to say in effect we all know this fellow is on the Pro side of this issue; so I would like for you to call on someone who is with us on the Anti side to pray following him.
I paraphrase but that is the way I heard the story.
On the other hand, we all remember Wiley Drake’s “impecatory prayers” that President Obama would die
Reprehensible. Disagree with the man’s policies all you want, and I do, but calling for his death?? He’s a total whack job.
We are in agreement, Joe.
John
John Fariss,
You are a bold and honest man to admit that you have prayed publicly supposedly in petition to God, but in reality you were sending a message of your personal desire to your people.
I too have done that same thing. Shamefully, I must admit that praying in such a manner has been a struggle through the years, so much so, that from time-to-time, I have found myself praying for help in prayer before I prayed publicly.
What a wretch, huh?
I also relate to you saying you have had “propaganda prayers” prayed over you.
Years ago I received a phone call late one night informing me that there would be a special prayer meeting the following morning for the purpose of “praying against me” that the Lord would “bind me” and not allow me to testify against a “brother” in a child abuse case.
I did not attend the prayer meeting, (I think some of the folks wanted to “lay hands on me” as they prayed)
but I was told that they “had a pretty good crowd” in attendance.
In the end, the guy got twelve years. Maybe the prayer meeting was somewhat successful. The rascal should have been sentenced to life. 🙂
I don’t believe in prison time for child abuse. Execution maybe, public castration, maybe, but not a few years in jail.
Unfortunantly, I know that castration (public, private, surgical, chemical, etc.) does not always work because sexual crimes are not always about sex; sometimes they are about power or control, and in those cases, the presence or absence of genitalia is not the controling issue. In Talladega, the building that served as the town’s police department until about 1971 (and was then torn down, with some difficulty, it was so sound structurally) had previously been the County Jail, built in the mid-1800s. In the radio room, you could still see the trap door in the ceiling where hangings took place.
I am not proud that I have abused prayer at times, and since recognizing it, have tried to refrain from that. I admire your introspection in this issue too. We don’t get any “better,” we don’t get forgiveness or effectiveness until we recognized our own faults and shortcomings, and confess them to God. What’s worse, is that it is generally harder to get forgiveness from ourselves than it is from God.
John
“I don’t believe in prison time for child abuse. Execution maybe, public castration, maybe, but not a few years in jail.”
John Fariss,
I always “believed” you were a fine Christian gentleman, scholar and all around stand up guy. Now I “know” that I am absolutely correct in my assumption. May your tribe increase!!
My all-time favorite teacher was Mr. Palmer, taught 8th grade English. Seems to be a great guy; helped me be a better writer and got a few of us interested in computers and technology. When we were in the 9th grade, Mr. Palmer was arrested for aggravated sexual assault of a minor. We, of course, had a hard time believing the accusations.
But then there were pictures and videos of our former English teacher with one of his new 8th grade students who he was supposedly acting as a “father figure” to.
Dude pled guilty, went to prison, but was released before any of us could graduate from college! Disgusting.
Even better, let the father of the victim handle it. I know letting someone take their revenge is wrong and I shouldn’t even suggest something like that. However, if I knew some lowlife had molested some man’s kid and I saw that man beating the ever lovin’ snot out of him I can promise you I’m going to have a sudden memory loss if I get questioned by the cops as to what I saw.
stay on topic
I wouldn’t expect much more. Have you seen the stuff people in our churches forward to each other in the name of “prayer requests” that are nothing more than slander about elected officials, etc.?
The implication usually being that salvation is of the ‘Pubs and all Demo’s are Satan’s little trained minions.
@Josh: YES!
Maybe a resolution for #SBC2011 “On the scandal of evangelical email forwarding.”
I’m serious. It’s really bad for our witness.
That’s funny, Tony!
Speaking of propaganda style prayers – you should check out my attempt on this old SBC Voices post:
An Urgent Prayer Request
See?
This is the junk we should expect from the CR crowd from now on. Next CR folks will be praying imprecatory prayers against the President.
Oh wait…
This is a joke to lead off a Monday morning and nothing more. Volfan, just back away from the keyboard and Joe, there’s kittens that need to be punched this morning.
🙂
Thank you for this post, as it describes my feelings about what I just heard on K-LOVE perfectly. Christianity and its tenets just as prayer are being wielded as a political weapon, and is only inflicting harm on itself. Thank you for calling this out.
I have to confess mild, and sometimes more enthusiastic, amusement at some of the public prayers I’ve heard. I know whenever we have a pastor from somewhere else visiting in our congregation, say on vacation, if our pastor asks him to pronounce the benediction, what we really get is a second sermon.
I lean, rightly or wrongly, to praying they way Jesus said and the way He did. He said not to pray thinking we’d be heard for our many words, or pray so people could hear us, but to get alone with God and pray in secret. And that’s what He did, too .. “withdrew about a stone’s throw..”.
I used to be pretty good at “leading public prayer”, but I’m not, any more. I think I’m glad about that.
As to child abusers, what I always think of is getting a big box of drywall screws and an electric drill, and start screwing their clothes to their body. Including their ski mask.
“As to child abusers, what I always think of is getting a big box of drywall screws and an electric drill, and start screwing their clothes to their body. Including their ski mask.”
WOW Bob!!!!
Not I, nor has anyone I know in the past or present ever done that! I did not realize there was a dark side to your nature. Maybe you, Fariss and I should start up a new security agency. We could call it:
Old Dudes With Guns: Pedophile Hunters Are Us. 🙂
I like it. I have a nice Colt New Service Revolver (circa 1910), 7.5 inch barrel, chambered for a .45 Long Colt cartridge. That makes a .45 APC look like a .22. I was always a pretty good shot, but if a slug from that even whizzes close to a pedophile’s genitals, it’ll burn ’em off. And shotguns and old knives are easy to come by.
John
Razor blades, two sixteen penny nails, a hammer and a small bottle of lighter fluid are also inexpensive and there are tree stumps in all the woodlands and swamps of North America.
John,…..Bob,…..I can see this thing coming together.
Do either one of you know how to sing? I think our theme song should be that Toby Keith-Willie Nelson song, “Whiskey For My Men, Beer For My Horses.” 🙂
Hi BOB CLEVELAND,
I can understand the anger of men towards perpetrators of unspeakable abuse;
but I must say that I wish there was as much fervor for the PROTECTION of innocent people in the Church from these perpetrators. It’s just not there. I don’t understand this, Bob.
oh my goodness… Christiane, do you honestly think that people in the churches dont have a fervor to get pedophiles out of the churches? Really? I can guarantee you that if a pedophile came into my church, and we found out about it; well, the law would probably have to be called to save the life of the pedophile.
And, Christiane, in a post about the wrong kind of praying, why do you seek to make this another comment thread about the big, bad, Southern Baptist leaders out there, who dont care about child molestors….especially the scary fundies that led the CR? Is that not where you’re trying to go with this comment? once again? for the umpteenth time?
I’m sorry, I’m just sick of hearing this stuff.
David
Hi DAVID,
something is wrong when victims are blamed, and told ‘not to go to the police’ and put up in front of congregations to say that they are ‘sinners’, because they became pregnant (under-age, of course) by their predator-pastor-abuser.
something is wrong when organizations that try to speak for victims of abuse are called ‘evil-doers’ by those in authority in the SBC
and something is wrong when people are castigated for speaking up about ‘something BEING wrong’, David.
Take a look, if you dare, and see if you can justify the examples given on this site:
http://stopbaptistpredators.org/collusion_institutions.html
Would be Christian if the Church could adopt some standards that would prevent the kinds of abuses and the kinds of collusion mentioned on that site, and on so many other sites.
David, I really DON’T UNDERSTAND. I’m telling the truth when I say that.
Christine, The problem is that if we disagree with Ms. Brown in anyway then we are not on board. I do have a question: How do we know that her attempts to contact leaders (SBC) is word for word as she tells it. How do I know that her encounter with Richard Land was exactly as she tells it. I concur with CB, and others. However, Debbie’s style of dealing with it really makes it hard to work with her and others.
please stay on topic
Off Topic: I am looking for how many people the SBC baptized in 2009. Where can I find those numbers?
And you castigate the other thread hijackers?!?
🙂
Bill, The difference is “I.” 🙂 The difference I am not 24/7 bashing the SBC. I need help with a sermon illustration…..I need help in general. 🙂
I have to admit that this comment thread scares me just a little bit. John Farriss, CB, and Bob Cleveland uniting as vigilantes. “The God Squad – Street Justice for Abusers Everywhere.”
Christiane:
You said:”Hi BOB CLEVELAND,
I can understand the anger of men towards perpetrators of unspeakable abuse;
but I must say that I wish there was as much fervor for the PROTECTION of innocent people in the Church from these perpetrators. It’s just not there. I don’t understand this, Bob.”
Amen, and what is the SBC doing to protect innocent people in the 45,000 + churches from the perpetrators.
Wasn’t this suppossed to be studied a couple of years ago?
Was there actually a study?
What is the current plan or is there no plan by the leaders of the SBC?
Hi LTB,
There is a references to what you are asking:
check the third entry down specifically:
http://stopbaptistpredators.org/collusion_individuals.html
and a much more complete discussion on your concern if here:
http://stopbaptistpredators.org/article08/what_would_jesus_say.html
I am Catholic and I hate to see this nightmare ignored by ‘leaders’ and left to the women of the Church to try to address. My own Church ignored the problem and covered up the scandal and finally dealt with it, but much too late.
And then I cannot believe or accept how much grief is directed towards these ladies. I know that they are trying to do the right thing as they see it. And I know that their strength is in their Christian desire to prevent more tragedy in the Church.
Christiane:
I am on the risk management committee at our church. In order to work with children, one must submit to a background check; two people are always required to be present so no adult is ever with a child alone; one must be credentialed to enter our children’s wing, and we have a police officer on premises all times when church is in session.
All children’s areas are covered by recording security cameras. And if there was something else we should be doing, rest assured we’d be doing it.
I have no sway over what other churches do, but I do not let aspersions cast toward FBC Pelham go unnoticed.
As a lifelong member of the Boy Scouts of America, I cannot even begin to stress the importance of “Two Deep” leadership which requires two adults at all times.
Jeff T:
You said:”Christine, The problem is that if we disagree with Ms. Brown in anyway then we are not on board. I do have a question: How do we know that her attempts to contact leaders (SBC) is word for word as she tells it. How do I know that her encounter with Richard Land was exactly as she tells it. I concur with CB, and others. However, Debbie’s style of dealing with it really makes it hard to work with her and others”
Wow, it has to be word for word and you are saying Debbie K is the problem.
Sounds to me like you are just making excuses.
My apologies for going ‘off topic’, but I couldn’t let certain comments pass from those who care about children, without adding my own.
Sometimes, it is best to speak up, openly and honestly, in the hope that it will do some good. Hope is good thing.
Your response illustrates the problem. One cannot disagree in anyway. I am not making excuses, but why should I just believe what others have said that Land did or did not do. Again, I said it makes it hard (I did not say I cannot work with them) to work with them because they want you to do everything their way.
Jeff T:
You said:”Your response illustrates the problem. One cannot disagree in anyway. I am not making excuses, but why should I just believe what others have said that Land did or did not do. Again, I said it makes it hard (I did not say I cannot work with them) to work with them because they want you to do everything their way.”
Maybe you could research for yourself what Land said and then you might be satisfied.
You seem to be someone who would be hard to convince of something.
Dave Miller,
Would it be possible for you guys who own this blog to put up a post about the problem of child abuse in Baptist life and let it be discussed without beating on past and present SBC pastors, entity heads and administrators.
It is a real issue and needs to be addressed, but Jeff T and Bob Cleveland are right in their comments here. Some folks have declared open season on Baptist leadership, local, state and national as a whole. That is a very poor approach, especially when some of us have done far more to directly deal with the problem as singular individuals than the “new crusaders” have in combination.
You guys just think about it. I know Big daddy Weave is not an owner of this blog, but he is a good researcher and writer, maybe he could be enlisted to write a post here. Of course, anyone of you guys could do the same.
1) I don’t own the blog. I’m not even the administrator. I just write articles from time to time and overstep my authority by deleting offensive comments and shutting down comment streams.
2) I do not think what you propose is possible. While we all agree that predatory pastors should be dealt with (frankly, some of you have some “creative” solutions – wow), the sides have been pretty well set.
If BDW or anyone else wishes to attempt such an article, I would certainly submit it to Matt for consideration.
I’ll be serious in this post. I don’t think that you can divorce the problem of child abuse in the Southern Baptist Church without have a critical discourse about local, state, or national SBC leadership. I, for one, am very much in favor of either a database or tracking system used for complaints against or confirmed cases of child abuse and the perpetrator. I worked for a church that quickly and quietly got rid of a youth pastor mired in accusations of child abuse and he went to work for at least two other churches before he finally wound up in our court systems and is currently doing a lot of time. The pastor of my old church never personally recovered from this ordeal and personally feels responsible for the children who were proven right so many years later. He also feels that the children of these other churches are his responsibility too. However, he says that you don’t want to be the person to destroy a fellow minister, but he feels he destroyed the lives of at least a dozen boys/young men in trying to protect this one pastor. My question is how can we argue church autonomy when trying to deny the creation or establishing of some sort of monitoring set up for our pastors and leadership when so many of those opposed to this are in favor of trying to “strong encourage” pastors, leadership, and churches to sign the BFM2K or adhere to the CP? I would think church autonomy would either affirm all of them or none of them. I also think that a lot of our small to midsize churches lack either the knowledge or the inclination to thoroughly research a given candidate for any number of staffing positions. I know large churches will devote resources to even background checks in its volunteers, but small churches can’t afford that.. However, in conclusion, I do think something should be done but I think that there are so many areas to act on in order to address this issue head on, that no one will be courageous enough to stand the intense hatred pointed in their direction should they even suggest something to the SBC. How far do we go in pursuing child abuse? Do we act on each and every accusation? Who does the investigating? What happens to the investigators if they miss something and the… Read more »
I’m going to suggest that we all try something new. How about we stay on topic and not go off into some kind of tangent?
Well, if the topic is prayer and whether or not it is ‘appropriate’ a.k.a. ‘propaganda’, then perhaps some of the discussion has been related to topic, if one remembers the words from Christ’s Prayer . . .
‘libera nos a malo’ . . .
Can’t think of a better prayer for our times.
For the record I have been innocent in this latest tangent escapade; I did not participate, or otherwise aid and abet.
I was happy with the prayer testimonies and other anecdotal material; and was platformed to provide another one when the tangent minions erupted in full fray.
Dave,
Seriously, I don’ think sides are as set as you might think here. I think that many guys here and elsewhere see the problem as very serious, but do not really want to make any substantial contributions on any of the nutcase blogs. In my case, at least, when I do visit the nutcase blogs, I end up having to defend someone who I know has been falsely accused of harboring criminals.
Would it not be possible to discuss the issues without a CR pro-con fight or a “pick a CR leader and Hang ’em High” party?
C.B.
I take it that you do not want any of these men written about:
http://stopbaptistpredators.org/collusion_individuals.html
Do you think that Christa has given the wrong information in any of these cases, C.B. ?
If so, which ones ?
I went to your link. The problem is they she mixes it up real good. Morris Chapman is a judgment statement on her part, I figure she got back because Dr. Chapman did not do what she wanted. The pastor at Sylvia Hills Baptist Church she provides no source so how can we know. Where are her sources?
L’s,
Is the primary need to bash old men that you don’t like or to help endangered children and rescue those who have already been abused?
Answer that question and we can talk.
I think Christiane’s response kinda makes my point, CB.
Perhaps you also wish for no mention to be made of these people.
I don’t know that. But, if someone like Aaron Weaver (BDW) were to write a blog on what IS happening, there will be some need to explore what has and has not been done, and by WHOM, and WHY.
If such a topic is put out there for debate, that is not going to be ‘comfortable’ for some people, David.
I can honestly understand that. But maybe it should be laid out on the table anyway. Maybe it’s time. Or past time.
It’s not my call.
Christiane, please either demonstrate someplace in which I advocated that victims of predators should be silenced, or stop posting such accusations.
Dave,
Of course you’ve said that. You’re an inerrantist, a complimentarian, and believe in salvation through repentance from sin and faith in Jesus Christ alone. Surely you know that no one who holds to such theological positions cares anything about truth or protecting inncent chidlren. You didn’t have to say the words. Believing like you believe proves that you don’t care about children. (/sarcash)
Well, at least in the mind of L’s and Cough-man.
Dave,
Maybe you are right. But if you are it is a terrible shame. And we should be ashamed.
What amazes me is how afraid churches are to share information with each other about previous employees, even the ones who leave on their own because they feel like God is calling them a different church.
The reality that Christa Brown and many others who want a national database fail to recognize is that the problem is local, not national. What I mean is that very often the ministers accused of child abuse tend to stay close fairly close to the communities where the abuse took place. Many stay in the same state or the same region. Rarely do those who are accused go across the country to find their next church. Thus, the solution must be local as well. I actually suggested this to Christa Brown some time back and offered to help her to contact state conventions and local associations near her in order to work toward solutions to the problem that don’t involve a national database (which has serious legal problems, especially in the case of those who are never convicted and may not be utilized by smaller churches who look to their state conventions and local associations. In addition, anyone who has been convicted could be easily detected by using a background check, which churches are almost always directed to do. And you can’t hold the whole SBC accountable for what a few stupid churches fail to do, even when directed).
Christa turned down my help and essentially told me that it was national or nothing. She seemed completely disinterested in actually affecting change on the local levels where there would have been immediate and greater impact. What needs to be done is train DOM’s and state convention workers so that they can in turn train search committees. Such work in local channels would go a long way in eradicating repeat child abuse, but certainly doesn’t guarantee that new abusers couldn’t surface.
The simply truth is that if Christa and others who are concerned would move to work with local associations and state conventions, impact could be made now. It just seems to me that she and others with her would rather rail from the outside for years than be a part of a solution now.
It is my opinion that D.R.Randle is correct here:
“What needs to be done is train DOM’s and state convention workers so that they can in turn train search committees. Such work in local channels would go a long way in eradicating repeat child abuse, but certainly doesn’t guarantee that new abusers couldn’t surface.”
I think that if we just began to dialogue with specific focus on the points D.R. Randle brings to light in just this single statement we could begin to see possibilities of how to approach a beginning to solve this problem we have. (and we do have a problem)
Why doesn’t Christa post that people have tried to help but she doesn’t want their type of help?
Jeff,
I actually went and located one post on Christa’s blog where I offered to personally help her to connect with pastors in her area (which she ignored) and while doing so I noticed that several others have offered to help, but asked her to tone down her rhetoric and work within the system (but to no avail). Christa is hailed by many as a champion against abuse, but I wonder how much more she could actually have done had she actually worked with pastors, local associations, and state conventions instead of yelling at them? Southern Baptists are always being told that they are known for what they are against instead of what they are actually doing to alleviate suffering. I fear that Christa suffers from the same problem. Meanwhile there are actually efforts underway by faithful Southern Baptists to tackle the problems of sexual abuse in Baptist Churches.
QUOTE “What needs to be done is train DOM’s and state convention workers so that they can in turn train search committees. END QUOTE
Bad approach in my opinion. Inserting their authority where it does not belong in regard to search committees has created a disaster in California.
It’s starts innocently enough: train the search committee. It soon becomes, get them to call someone we (DOM, State) approve of. Churches should do what my predecessor did: offer names for the committee to consider (one at a time) and then let the church make the final decision.
Of course, this method works much better when the pastor is retiring after 37 years with the church 🙂
SSBN, You are correct about DOM’s. I have a great one in my area, but I am leary of letting them have too much power in the local church, however, we need to do something!
SSBN and Jeff,
I understand your concerns, but almost every Church in our area consults with the local DOM’s on their pastor search process. From what I understand this is fairly regular practice. I’m not advocating more of it, but my point is that we might as well use the structure already in place to train pastor search committees how to avoid hiring those who are or may be sex offenders.
D.R. Randle, unfortunately the only persons (and there have been many) who have been eliminated in the search committees led by my previous DOM was anybody who claimed to be conservative.
No — as in zero — child abusers were discovered in the process in my 5 year tenure — only conservatives.
You do as you wish: I’ll continue to fight for local church autonomy.
This is in reply to comment #64 by SSBN:
” . . . unfortunately the only persons (and there have been many) who have been eliminated in the search committees led by my previous DOM was anybody who claimed to be conservative.”
SSBN is lying. He keeps making claims about his former DOM that are simply not true. (How does a DOM lead a search committee, anyway?) If it were true, how could SSBN have been called to my former church on Main St? I almost wish it were true. Then maybe church attendance would not have gone from 120 upon his (SSBN) arrival to 10 upon his departure.
I do not know where he gets his information, but if he is lying about this, what else does he lie about?
The reality that Christa Brown and many others who want a national database fail to recognize is that the problem is local, not national.
This, THIS, THIS!!!!!
As much as she, Cough-man, and others WANT this to be a national cover up (and, of course, all Paige Patterson’s fault), it just isn’t. It happens and something needs to be done about it. However, what you have is not a situation like the Catholic Church where upper level officials had the authority to move a priest from one parrish to another without letting anyone know that he was a monster and they used their power to do just that. You don’t have that kind of structure in the SBC no matter how loudly Don Quixote and Cough-man want to bray and bellow that you do.
Hi JOE,
Am I misunderstanding you.
Are you saying that, because if in the SBC, leaders know that a man is a monster, and they DO NOTHING, that they are absolved of all responsibility, as the monster goes from one Church to another?
Don’t you think that knowledge (knowing someone is a monster) involves at least a MORAL responsibility?
Of COURSE, the bishops who moved predators around to different parishes were terribly wrong to do it, but they did it actively, all the while knowing that the new parish had no clue what they would be dealing with. So they were ACTIVELY placing a predator, and they were PASSIVELY keeping it a secret from the new parishioners.
But in the SBC, what case is there morally for responsibility left undone, when a ‘leader’ is aware from many reports about a predator, and tells the victims to ‘keep it quiet’, and then says nothing to warn a new Church about the wolf soon to prey on their innocent?
That PASSIVE lack of action on that leader’s part is not morally acceptable, is it Joe?
No, what I am saying is that no one in SBC leadership took Pastor Whatshisname out of one church and put him in another church because there is no mechanism to do that in the SBC. I most certainly did not say if Dr. X knew that Pastor Y had molested a child in a church and that Pastor Y was up for a gig in another church that Dr. X should not inform that new church.
THANK YOU!!!!
So you acknowledge the need for
a way that those leaders in the SBC who KNOW
can alert those in Churches who DON’T KNOW.
🙂
You got it, Christiane. You see what’s real.
I nave never said that only a national database would do, and to the contrary, I have repeatedly and publicly urged action at the state level. I have been very public about it, I have made press statements, and have written a lot on my blog about trying to get the largest of the Baptist statewide conventions to do something. I also communicated with statewide (and local) Baptist officials in Georgia and Florida. Of course, I’ve talked with many other clergy abuse survivors who have attempted to communicate with statewide Baptist officials in many other states. The patterns are almost invariably the same. No one will do anything. I also talked about the state-level problem quite a lot in my book, and about my numerous communications with statewide Baptist officials. Given how public I’ve been on this, it’s amazing to me that anyone would suggest that I’m not interested in state-level possibilities. It’s simply not true. What is true is that, at some point, after you’ve banged your head against a dozen doors and had a dozen more shut in your face, you stop going to every door that someone tells you to go to. Even outside of Southern Baptist affiliated statewide conventions, I also gave a very big chunk of time to the statewide Alabama Cooperative Baptist Fellowship to help them in developing a procedure to allow for the reporting of clergy sex abuse by the victims themselves. I got absolutely nothing for it. I did it because, contrary to what some people here have said, I’m interested in trying to find effective solutions, and that includes solutions at the state level. And the procedure set up by the Alabama CBF would be a good starting place for those interested in developing a system for a faith group with congregationalist polity. So too would be the regional systems used by the American Baptists. You might also look at how the Presbyterians conduct assessments on clergy complaints. There are differences in the polity, of course, but helpful information is there nonetheless. Whether state or national, what is needed is an outside office to which the victims themselves may report clergy sex abuse with some reasonable expectation of being objectively heard. Assessments on those reports should be made by people with the training and background to responsibly do so, and records of the assessments should be kept with a system for… Read more »
Christa Brown has made a profession out of being of victim. She has zero interest in helping churches at a local level to guard against child predators. She wants a national witchhunt and nothing more. People who hate all things SBC have hijacked this veryimportant issue for their own personal vendettas. Watch those whoever refuse to discuss ways this issue can be dealt with right now at a local level and you’ll see those who care only about destroying the SBC an not protecting chlidren. By the time a predators name makes it into a national database a child has already been abused. People who truly care about children want to know ways to prevent abuse. I don’t need to know the name of every evil man/woman or in some cases older children to know that I have to protect my children.
“Bess”, what religion are you?
Um, condecending much?
Cause of course anyone who would be critical of Christa Brown or Cough-man can’t possibly be a Christian. After all, real Christians are theologically moderate to liberal. They certainly are those mean old hateful fundy’s that actually believe salvation is through repentance from sin and faith in Christ exclusively**, right?
**Before I forget, I better add that caveat that you require to spell it out for you–“…assuming they do not suffer from some sort of mental imparement that would prevent them from understanding the gospel (i.e. someone who is retarded)”. Everyone else knows I mean that, but I wanted to make sure I spelled it out for you since you don’t.
They certainly are should have read They certainly aren’t.
When did it become ‘Christian’ for someone who disagrees with another person to attempt to discredit them by telling lies?
Wow.
And now on this comment stream, we have a ‘Bess’ and a ‘bess’.
So we are ‘twice-bessed’ 🙂
Tell ya what, I’ll answer that question if you’ll answer this one. Can a person who is able to think, reason, and understand (i.e. not retarded) go to heaven apart from repentance from sin and faith in Jesus Christ alone?
“Tell ya what, I’ll answer that question if you’ll answer this one. Can a person who is able to think, reason, and understand (i.e. not retarded) go to heaven apart from repentance from sin and faith in Jesus Christ alone?” Are you referring to ‘faith’ alone? Or Jesus Christ “alone”? The positioning of the word ‘alone’ is semantically important, Joe. As far as salvation by faith ‘alone’, I can answer for Catholics, Joe, this: As the Bible says, we are already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but we are also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12), and we have the hope that we will be saved (Rom. 5:9–10, 1 Cor. 3:12–15). Like the apostle Paul we are working out our salvation in fear and trembling (Phil. 2:12), with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Rom. 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11–13).” We are ‘already saved’: Romans 8:24 Ephesians 2:5-8 we are also ‘being saved’: 1 Cor. 1:18 2 Cor. 2:15 Philippians 2:12 and we have the ancient Christian hope that we WILL BE saved: Romans 5:9-10 1 Cor. 3:12-15 Like the Apostle Paul, Catholic people are working out their salvation in fear and trembling: Philippians 2:12, with hopeful confidence in the promises of Christ (Romans 5:2, 2 Tim. 2:11-13) As to all the children of Adam and Eve, I entrust them to the mercy of Christ the Lord in all things. He IS the Savior. He ‘makes all things new’. For some, the choice they make may be to live eternally not in the Presence of the Lord. (you call this ‘hell’, I think) But I do believe this, Joe: that grace is extended to ALL the descendants of Adam and Eve. And any who do reach out to the Lord, will come to Him because of that undeserved grace. In their reaching out, I believe that they will be met with the Divine Mercy of Christ, and embraced by Him like the prodigal son. How Christ will do this, we cannot now know completely, as we are told we are seeing but a ‘poor reflection’ still: “12 Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is… Read more »
I meant faith alone in Christ alone. It is faith alone that saves but the faith that saves is not alone.
“I meant faith alone in Christ alone. It is faith alone that saves but the faith that saves is not alone.”
Joe, remember always these words from from Isaiah 55 before you go to sit in judgment on other people’s salvation:
“8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the LORD.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher
than your ways
and my thoughts
than your thoughts.”
L’s,
The question in #77?
L’s
Remember these words from John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
There is nothing in any way shape form or fashion in that passage you ripped out of context in Isaiah that suggests or implies even for an instant that God hasn’t been 100% crystal clear that salvation is only through Jesus Christ.
“Twice-bessed.” Love your humor, Christiane. I think you see what’s real and what’s not.
Thanks L’s!!!
Joe finally get his answer to his broken record constant comment.
I totally agree with you–and thanks for doing the detailed homework I don’t have time for.
Joe won’t change, I’m afraid. He loves to be the playground bully too much!!
Sad—so sad!
Christiane, I’m not sure where you received your degree in N.T. Greek, but it your interpretation of Romans 8:24 is not found in any Greek source I’m aware of.
Then again, I’m not really sure what you mean by the term “already saved,” but I suspect it is not substantiated by the indicative aorist in the passage.
Gene S.
You are a moron. That, by the way, is not my personal opinion but rather a professional observation.
Prayer for Joe:
Dear God—
Please make all bad people good—and all good people nice!
Joe,
I concur. Did you by any chance read Gene’s way of handling abusers and teens? I posted it in #137 of this thread? Read his comment in #135 first and you will see they hypocrisy.
Itell ya what somethng too
Speakin of retards as Joe Blackmon called em, the fellow who does CBS Sunday Morning chat had great commentary for how retards are abusing the Internets.
Made me think of some people. I hope I find a link soon.
Here it is right here. If it makes you think of anyone you know please name and testify
The Downside of the Internets:
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6795173n&tag=contentMain;contentBody
Joe & cb–
I appreciate your attempt to “turn” my description of the situation at the rural church between a teen and middle-aged man. You try to make me into one ignoring abuse and failing to report it to authorities.
Had the man been a sneaky snake using his maturity and position to seduce the teen, it would have been unquestionably a case for police investigation. HOWEVER, in this case, the girl was more than active in the process because she was craving his attention.
Had I reported it, she had enough distortion in her life to make it appear it was all his fault! How would any man like to be listed as a molester when his head was turned by a flirting teen with ulterior motives?
Not all cases are as simple as you might think. The starting point, for me, is an analysis of what really happened. That analysis led me to act as I did—and it turned out to be redemptive in the long haul. I think Jesus did the same with the woman caught in the act of adultery / brought to him on the verge of stoning / forgiven when he confronted the sinfulness of all holding rocks.
Your distortions are beyond compare. I don’t need to take it and I won’t. It is nothing but a diversion for the shameful way you have treated Christa Brown as she advocates for control of molesters among ordained clergy in the SBC.
Why don’t you both (and some of your fiends) quit the collusion and distortion??? It contributes nothing but a clearer picture of how closet meetings and mob mindset have destroyed the SBC since 1979. You are just feeding off one another’s hard-hearted view of the faith.
Gene Scarborough,
You have no real concept of what you have done do you? That is just pitiful.
I’ll tell you what Gene. I have a lot of family and friends in NC. I am thankful you no longer serve as a pastor there.
Please continue to work among the trees and please never again take up the position as shepherd to a local church.
You allow the wolves to roam too freely.
Gene, statutory rape is statutory rape. What’s really sad is that if you know Christa’s story her abusers seemed to describe her just like the girl in Gene’s situation. So Gene thinks a teeanage girl can be just as guilty as the married adult? Where’s “Joseph” to give ol Gene an attaboy?
Bess,
I had wondered about the “Silence of Joseph” upon the revealing story “Gene and the Wolf” myself.
It is a rather strange silence one must admit.
CB, according to Gene’s reasoning Christa’s abuser would not be someone he wound want on a database.
Lot’s of curious things going on here. I’m just wondering how many people are connecting all the dots.
Bess: ARe you a real person or a composite.
If you are for real I got to commend you for a great phrase “wet Mess”. Hadn’t heard that colloquialism before but for sure if you are tellling the truth; your Grandmother must been a whammy.
Stephen, Bess is short for Elizabeth. Granny who was actually great granny was Mavis Elizabeth. She had very little formal education but a wisdom that seems to be increasingly lost to this world. As Granny would say “some folk ain’t got the sense God gave a turnip.”
Bess: I can not agree with your fundamentalism, but I have to admit I like the family names.
Mavis just sets the whole thing off.
My grandmother only had a 2nd grade education, but as her son Fremont and my Uncle Said, if she had gotten to Rome, Ga before the woman living in a two million dollar estate she drove passed everytime she went to town from her small farm about five miles out; she woulda run the place.
I think you should join me and CB Scott in reading Ron Rash. You’re gonna love him, talking about the shank of the day, right before full dark.
Start with One Foot in Eden and go from there.
As I’ve told RAsh, if my grandmother had lived long enough for me to read one of his stories to her, she woulda said That’s exactly the way it happenned.
L’s I’m a Christian which may be confusing to you since you’ve demonstrated time and again that you have no clue what that means. And L’s the jig is up on Christa Brown so calling me a liar isn’t exactly going to help her out. How sick is that? Some people think the Great Commission actually matters. But some people don’t care abou potential damage to the SBC and that’s where they reveal their true hearts.
What these posts here at SBC voices prove is that in spite of the rantings of bitter emotionally disturbed women something is actually be done about sexual abuse in the SBC. People are aware and they talking and taking action. Is it perfect? No, but average every day church members are talking and looking at ways to make our churches safer. Now what irks, irritates, makes someone like Christa Brown and the Enid crew insane is that people want to protect children and protect the SBC’s ability to carry out the Great Commision to lost souls like L’s.
I don’t think that telling lies to discredit Christa is behavior worthy of anyone who bears the name of ‘Christian’.
Telling lies about Christa also reflects VERY poorly on any claim of support for the advancement of the Great Commission, which was given by Our Lord to his disciples and handed down through the centuries.
You need to reconsider your ‘tactics’, if you want to maintain credibility, even among your own denomination, and I am sure of that.
How strange it is that telling lies is now seen by some as acceptable ‘Christian’ behavior. Where does this come from?
And don’t say ‘the Holy Scriptures’.
And it certainly isn’t in the BF&M 2K either.
Where does the acceptance of this behavior come from?
Is it on the increase?
And who is sanctioning it? And who is supporting it?
I’m not lying and your calling me a liar doesn’t make it so.
“tactics” just makes laugh considering the ” tactics” of taking such a serious issue as this to bash the SBC.
L’s I just had this great idea on how we can solve this issue right here right now. Everybody can agree we want to make churches safer for the children. Where the big disagreements come is when people are recommending things that will actually hurt the SBC and prevent the SBC from performing it’s actual purpose of carrying out the Great Commission. So here’s what you do L’s you go to all your buddies who just wanna help children and not destroy the SBC to explain how a national database will in no way be able to be a tool to hurt the SBC or have your buddies admit they don’t care how much damage can be done to the SBC or they concede that yes damage could be done and so we should do everything in our power to protect children and protect the SBC so it can carry out it’s purpose. So you go do that little thing and then post the links so everybody knows exactly where everyone stands.
L’s,
I asked you this question last evening in the post on Orlando. You obviously missed it because it was a fair question. I will post it here in hope that you give it an honest answer.
L’s,
I am curious. Did you read through the comment thread on Tony’s child abuse post? If you did, I think you would be willing to agree that the comments give evidence that many of these guys are very concerned about child abuse in Baptist life and desire to see some constructive action take place to protect the children God has placed in our watch.
Anyway, I hope you see that to be the case.
L’s: I agree with Christa. You definitely can see who is real and who is not. I think they could learn a thing or two from you and hopefully not vice versa. That would include in prayer. It’s sad that they even attempt to use this to shut you up. You are just doing too good a job showing them what you see L’s. Keep up the good work friend. And contrary to what Bess thinks, I can read and so can Christa. When Bess begins to take both prayer and clergy sexual abuse seriously maybe we can listen to her. Maybe. 🙂
BTW CB and Joe,Bess: Considering you are more bullying the “Gospel” than giving it to her, I don’t think she owes you an answer ever. Like Tom you seem to want to take a rubber hose and beat it out of a person. Sorry fellas that isn’t the Great Commission and it’s certainly a good example of Propaganda, like Bill’s prayer was so at least you are keeping in line with the post. Although it is kind of scary to think there may be a female version of CB and Joe out there going by the name of Bess, I guess it shows when you think you have seen it all….thankfully it’s not the Biblical version of Christianity.
Debbie,
Since you are here, did you read through the comment thread on Tony’s child abuse post? If you did, I think you would be willing to agree that the comments give evidence that many of these guys are very concerned about child abuse in Baptist life and desire to see some constructive action take place to protect the children God has placed in our watch.
Tell me what you think in regard to reading about guys who know there is a problem and what to see something done.
I read it CB and was greatly encouraged by what I read.
Debbie,
I am glad to hear that. I too was encouraged. Maybe something constructive can happen in Baptist life that will help curb this terrible thing Andrew Vachss calls, “The Children of the Secret.”
I hope so CB. I think it’s the greatest gift we could give our children. It shows they are precious to us and matter.
A-Men
Gosh darn it you guys didn’t ask Debbie if it was ok to talk about sexual abuse in Baptist churches. Debbie get’s to decide who can discuss the issue because she’s the only one in all blogdom who truly understands Biblical Christianity and humilty for that matter. Anyone who thought the nutcase blogger reference were about Debbie should just ignore that too and they posts which say that Christw Brown says it’s her way are no way. Ignore that too cause that might insinuate those ladies are losing crediabilty to speak on this issue. Debbie Coughman herself has spoken and she will decide who is allowed to comment. Also just ignore the fact that those ladies don’t care about any damage to the SBC a national database will cause thus damaging the SBC’s ability to carry out the great commission. What a little thing like the Great Commission when the chillllllrin are involved.
CB, Joe the jig is up which one of you is really Paige Patterson and who’s Ergun? It’ s a conspiricy ya know.
Bess–
I’m getting strange vibes in your comments.
Are you really a female–or Joe Blackmon’s fake female who has the same harsh attitudes toward any whom you oppose????
I would think any female would be more sensitive to the cause Christa Brown’s ministry tries to place foremost!!!
” The simply truth is that if Christa and others who are concerned would move to work with local associations and state conventions, impact could be made now. It just seems to me that she and others with her would rather rail from the outside for years than be a part of a solution now.”
Exactly! Christa Brown not her champions have any interest in helping children. This is pure hatred of all things SBC.
Another post down the tubes. Or perhaps I should pray:
“lord I pray that just once a blog topic at SBC Voices produces a lively but productive comment stream that stays on topic and produces the fruit of, if not agreement, at least understanding and mutual respect. I pray that the people who usually cannot resist the temptation to turn the discussion to their own pet topics will receive your strength to resist, knowing that all things are possible with you. amen…”
How’s that for propaganda? 😉
BY posting this are you turning this to your own pet topic. 🙂
True. My own pet topic is staying on topic. But I did kinda turn it towards the topic at hand.
Besides, we all know propaganda prayers are never directed at ourselves.
Hey, how bout those Yankees 🙂
cb scott:
You said:”I think that many guys here and elsewhere see the problem as very serious, but do not really want to make any substantial contributions on any of the nutcase blogs. In my case, at least, when I do visit the nutcase blogs, I end up having to defend someone who I know has been falsely accused of harboring criminals.”
When you use the words nutcase blogs how does that help the discussion? We need discussion not flaming rhetoric such as what you said by using the word nutcase.
Tom Parker, the gig is up. We all know it is you.
Tommy is undercover now! Special Police 🙂
Jeff T,
LOL. He just ain’t good at it is he? If we were mobsters, we “would done shot ’em” by now!! 🙂 🙂
Bill Mac,
I realize you are right. And frankly, I am maybe as tired as you of CR fights, believe it or not.
At the same time, the subject of child abuse in Baptist life is a real problem, a glaring shame and a damnable sin. Yet, about the only Baptist blogs that speak to it are nutcase blogs, private agenda blogs and narcissistic antagonistic blogs.
SBC Voices is one of the few blogs wherein the owners make an effort to be objective and fair. The owners seem to be bright guys. Surely one of them or all of them could come up with a way to speak to this issue without having to rehash a thirty-five year old war.
It is my opinion that I am not alone in thinking: “I realize Baptist churches are autonomous and rightly so, but surely we need to do something about this growing cancer among us identified by Andrew Vachss as “The Children of the Secret.”
BillMac, I take full responsibility for this good post being hijacked. I realize I should have left it alone, but for the life of me, I ain’t sorry for it.
Nonetheless, I will leave the topic of child abuse in Baptist life alone on “this” comment thread. And I promise, I won’t “pray against” you. 🙂
Christiane:
There is also the matter that there sits today, in prison, a particular child abuser, because our pastor called the police. So at least one pastor walks what a whole lot of people are talking.
My last on the topic, too.
LTB–Long Time Baptist:
CB Scott and Jeff T. Thanks for the warm welcome to this blog.
You are welcome Tom.
Goodnight Grandpa, Goodnight John Boy, Goodnight Jim Bob, Goodnight Jason, Goodnight Jenny, Goodnight Mama, Goodnight Mary Ellen, Goodnight Ben and……………………………..goodnight Tom parker.
For the child abuse question, see the new post.
Thank you. I don’t know you, but you seem to be a fair guy, maybe even a stand up guy. If you are ever in Birmingham, give me a call. Lunch is on me.
I’ll be down there this OCT for the LifeWay Kids Ministry conference. I’d love to hang out if we can work it out.
Deal. Here is my email: cbscott5512@gmail.com
Watch it, Tony. CB can be very charming in person!!
Thank You Huggy Bear Dave.
I do my best. 🙂
Tony,
I agree that prayer should not be propoganda. However, in the case you cited you have made some faulty assumptions. First, what is being covered up and what is being exposed? Do you really think WikiLeaks is acting in the best interest of America? What about the troops and other officials they are putting at risk? Even the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff expressed concern over the unnecceary added danger our troops in the field may incur.
WikiLeaks is causing unnecessary angst and you are as well by making unthinkable assumptions. How did make a rational connection among watergate, Viet Nam, and Afganistan? In fact, your connection is propoganda.
Are you really sure KLOVE’s prayer request is propoganda? Is your issue really about KLOVE’s prayer request or do you have some other agenda?
Gene Stockton
US Air Force (Retired)
@Gene: Thanks for your interaction. I appreciate your point of view.
I’ve likely made many assumptions and you may well be right about WikiLeaks. I don’t know.
For now I’m really divided on the issue. On one hand I think stealing government documents is very bad. On the other hand I think our government (and the other governments featured on that website) should be playing cover up.
With the other scandals I mentioned, I was thinking about why politicians hide the truth.
Sad to say: We live in a world of distortion where ratings are more important than truth.
Many of our fast growing talking heads consider, first, how controversy always draws attention while level headed “truth seeking” too often bores an American public becoming more and more bored with truth and honesty!
My brother, I agree that prayer should not be politicized…but if you can’t see the evil and motivation behind the WikiLeaks and understand their agenda…well, you’re a bit on the naive side. Blessings!
I would hope I’m 100% on the side of the naive.
Uhhhh… gee whiz… wow… I’m just amazed at some of the things you guys say about me, and you haven’t a clue. To those who think I’ve never made efforts to contact local associational or state convention leaders, you’re wrong. I made extensive efforts, both private and public, on multiple fronts. More specifically, I’ve also blogged rather endlessly about the Baptist General Convention of Texas. I’ve had letters and emails from and to them, and I’ve met with some of them in person (at my own expense in flying to Dallas). I’ve never said “national or nothing.” Given my public efforts at the state convention level, and my public writings on the subject, I’m amazed anyone would say such a thing.
Some of my efforts are documented on the StopBaptistPredators website (e.g., with postings of letters to and from), and much more is documented in my book, with 286 footnotes.
Christa,
I’ve followed some (not all the posts) in regard to your suggestions, and I don’t think all the “deafness” is on the side of your detractors.
My personal opinion is: you are trying to force your strategy from a top/down approach. My opinion is that will never work. If I understand you correctly (and I may not) you want a “policy” implemented. In my opinion, you are wasting your time if that is indeed your view.
I do agree that greater awareness and implementation of protective policies is needed, but I don’t think your approach is helpful.
That is just my opinion.
SSBN says: “I do agree that greater awareness… is needed.”
Me too, SSBN, and that’s a significant part of why I do what I do. Not that long back, the SBC’s top-dog on ethics, Richard Land, was telling the world that, unlike Catholics, Southern Baptists had only “a couple” cases before they “really focused on this” and got a handle on it. And as recently as 2007, SBC president Frank Page was repeatedly making public comments that Southern Baptists had had only “several” cases. And then, of course, there was the rather ridiculous remark by paid SBC spokesperson Will Hall saying “only 40 incidents in 15 years.”
This sort of minimization of the problem is what your own highest leaders were foisting on people in the pews and the public as recently as a few years ago. So … while our efforts may not yet have persuaded Southern Baptists to work cooperatively toward providing churches with a resource for obtaining more reliable and objective information about their ministers, if our efforts have helped to create a “greater awareness” about the true extent of the problem (i.e., an awareness beyond what your own leaders were promoting just a few years ago), then I certainly don’t consider those efforts to have been wasted.
QUOTE your own highest leaders END QUOTE
Well, I guess that sort of ends any kind of productive conversation. Your statement proves to me the truth of what I posted on another blog — you have an “ulterior motive.” You have a deep-seated bitterness that makes you couch all your ideas in an “us versus them” world-view.
Just for the record: you do not determine for me who is, or is not, “my highest leaders.” I’m about as “anti-establishment” as they come. I still smell of the 60’s and early 70’s. I refuse to be painted with your broad brush, or anyone else.
You’re all about punishment and revenge. That will pretty much guarantee you will never reach a concensus on any of your ideas.
I was trying to offer you an olive branch, but instead you prefer the branch of the “whip” o will.
Sometimes I can’t help but wonder if an appearance on Larry King Live is the desired outcome of some folks rather than to really address the problem of child abuse.
Well … okay SSBN … so maybe they aren’t “your” leaders in a personal sense … fine. But they’re still Southern Baptist leaders. I think that’s how most ordinary people would characterize them.
And you might note that, in the next posting (“Does the SBC protect and enable”), Tony Kummer begins by suggesting the possibility that the 2007 SBC Resolution “only came about after critics went after our denomination. It raised awareness … ” So I stand by what I said … I think these efforts have been functional for helping to raise awareness. But of course, much more than a resolution is still needed.
Only Christa Brown deserves any credit for any discussions that are occurring. nothing else going on in the world could possibley have led to these types of discussions at churches, associations, and state coventions. Please ever stand and applaud while Christa takes all the credit and glory for herself. If only she could get that national database maybe Larry King would call.
CB, I think you are “spot on.” I’m convinced that Brown’s crusade has more to do with her, than helping anyone else. As you notice, she never responds to any disagreement someone has with something she says or proposes. She just attacks.
She is definitely sufferng from “victim’s syndrome” which clouds everything she says.
She also resolutely refuses to acknowledge that nobody speaks for an SBC church put a member of a particular SBC church. The fact that she perpetuates that particular myth and uses circular reasoning to support her attack with her myth, tells me what the real agenda is.
It’s all about Crista, the sole crusader and only person who knows the truth — great start for a cult leader.
PS — Do you notice that even when she admits she “might” be mistaken, she never apologizes. She just repeats her mantra.
This makes it impossible to carry on any meaningful conversation with her and people like her.
Yet, if someone would say (as they have) that she is just parroting the words of her “leader” (a disgruntled former trustee), she would be deeply offended. Yet, I have never referenced anyone as speaking for me, and she lumps me in with the likes of “you guys.” Now, that deeply offends me 🙂
Some have referred to the “cult of personality”. A lot of pride involved here.
SSBN: I didn’t say I might be mistaken and I don’t owe you any apology. What I said was that I think most ordinary people would reasonably characterize Frank Page, Richard Land, and Will Hall as being Southern Baptist leaders. But if you don’t want to personally acknowledge them as leaders, as your leaders, as SBC leaders, or as any kind of leaders at all, then that’s your call. But it doesn’t mean that I was mistaken in referring to them on an SBC Voices blog as being “your leaders” — i.e., as leaders of people who are connected to the Southern Baptist Convention.
I can’t even begin to imagine why you would suggest that I myself might have some leader who would be a “disgruntled former trustee.” Trustee of what? Perhaps you’ve got me confused with someone else, or maybe you’re just talking to be talking. Or maybe both.
SSBN – priesthood of the believer is a difficult concept for some.
Gentlemen–
I am ashamed of the way you are treating Christa!
She has the courage of her convictions based on her own terrible abuse at the hands of a minister.
Anyone who would try to put a lid on her efforts is denying the facts: We have a problem with abusive ordained ministers taking advantage of their position and blaming the females–as if it were all their fault—NOT!!!!
Blessing on you, Christa! It is hard to soar with eagles when you are forced to deal with turkeys!!!!!
Gene you’re funny! Where has anyone anwhere denied that there is a problem with sexual abuse in churches or society in general for that matter? And we are all waiting with bated breath for Christa to explain how a national database could in no way no how be used to damage the SBC thus taking away Great Commission resources. Or she can admit she doesn’t care if the SBC can be damage and thus damage the SBC’s purpose of carrying out the Great Commission. And I’m sure anytime now Christa the penultimate expert is going to give us the links where she has detailed ideas and resources to help churches right now today. We’re waiting. Patiently waiting. While some people are just talking to talk. We wait.
Thanks for the laugh Gene!
Bess,
You must be evil to the core. You have brought shame to the heart of a Cretan.
We do try CB. We do try. Meanwhile we wait for answers to unaswered questions.
“Where has anyone anwhere denied that there is a problem with sexual abuse in churches or society in general for that matter?”
You gotta be kidding me!!!
Christa, herself, was abused / reported it / became the target / never got action from her church!
Again, she brought it to the attention of the SBC years ago and got the excuse: “We have no authority over a local church, therefore we can do nothing about it!”
The is not only denial, but an official rebuff and refusal to act!
Question: If the SBC can kick out Broadway Baptist Church in Texas, accusing them of ministering to homosexuals, why is it so impossible to have any official action kicking out any ordained minister proven to be a molester of church members?
At present, we are simply deferring to law enforcement those actions which can–and should–be handled by the local church where the abuse took place.
Moreover, no one is ordained by himself! The same body which granted ordaination has every right + a biblical command–to deal with sin by casting out: if the proven sinner persists after private confrontation / several who know / finally refusing to repent and being cast out of the fellowship (Paul’s clear direction from the NT).
At this point, you are accusing Christa of a self-serving crusade as the excuse you don’t want to listen to her. This is as bad–or worse–than ignoring abuse and failing to deal with it.
I feel great shame that you would think yourself to be a committed follower of Christ–whether you are Baptist / Catholic / Boy Scout advocate / whatever kind of believer or citizen failing to act on abuse!!!!
The act is unlawful. It caused Jesus to advocate a millstone around the neck and casting into the sea.
Where is your brain???
Where is your conscience???
Gene,
I read one of your accounts of how you handled a well known man in your church related to his sexual involvement with a girl in your church who was about the same age as was Christa when she was abused.
According to your own testimony relating to the way you treated that sixteen year old girl in your church upon the revelation as to what happened, it is sheer hypocrisy on your part here to chastise anyone about how Christa’s church treated her.
You told the story on one of Debbie’s post and unless she has erased or will erase it, it is still there. So don’t deny what you said relating of that sixteen year old girl in your church. I challenged you about how you handled it. Lydia also challenged you on it. Gene, your hypocrisy simply knows no bounds and neither do your lies.
Debbie, Christa (Joseph), L’s and others, Read this story told by your hero Gene Scarborough. He tells you here how to handle sexual abuse in the church. The truth is that Gene and guys like him in ministry are a major part of the problem we face and why it is so hard to get anything done. Read this story written by a pastor who really knows how to handle abuse in the church. Gene Scarborough at his pastoral best. He states he had a “steady nerve” and a “biblical basis” for ministry here: “As a Pastor I seemed to be sent to churches with major problems requiring one with a steady nerve and biblical basis of ministry. Let me share another situation of immorality I faced. This one involved, of all things, a quiet little country church where I reasoned, “Let’s just have a good time where country people get along—NOT! In this case a prominent male leader in his 40’s began a affair with another prominent family’s teenage daughter. Actually, she was the seductress and he was a stupid male thinking with the “wrong head.” It blew up one Sunday afternoon at a lake house. I got a call from the girl’s brother that I was needed badly and he couldn’t say more. I picked up one of our mature women with a relationship to both parties. As we journeyed to the lake house neither of us could imagine what had happened. Suspicions were brought to the front up there by the girl’s older sister who bluntly called her the “w” word. We came on a scene of deeply hidden sinfulness / a father of the girl wanting to shoot the man and carrying a gun in his truck / a wife humiliated by the stupidity of her husband. On top of that the Mother of the girl played the organ and the wife of the man played beautifully with her on the piano. Yeah–it’s the musicians again creating havok!!! I was faced with dealing with each family separately and the 2 sinful ones wanting to talk together with me. Daddy didn’t like the idea, but I assured him it would be a time of confronting reality with these 2. They were so in lust that nothing I said made any difference. They could care less whom they had hurt and were not interested in confessing anything! I… Read more »
cb—
I fail to understand any of your diatribe!!!
What is the real problem with a biblical handling of a serious moral situation?
The outcome was reconciliation and a church not splitting into a 100 pieces never to be restored.
Why don’t you tell me what you would have done in your omnicient ministerial abilities???
Sometimes these prayers are not propaganda. Sometimes they are apparently answered as asked. There are two stories in the history of revivals and evangelism to this effect, one concerns Evangelist Mordecai Fowler Ham (under whom Billy Graham was converted) who prayed for God to kill a group that was doing its best to sabotage a revival he was preaching in a church in Missouri. The whole group was taken away in a matter of a few days and the revival lasted some time. The same kind of story happened with reference to the Evangelist Rolfe Barnard in a little oil rich church in Texas. Over one week end the opposition (some six people) was removed by events that were clearly evidence of Divine intervention. The revival that followed lasted some period of time and many were saved and added to that church. Some get angry at the idea that seems to present of God, but they forget his thoughts are not our thoughts and his ways are not our ways. At the same time He is wonderfully kind, He is also Just. He gives no account to any one. In 52+ years of being a Christian, I have seen some unusual things. While I do not defend the idea that one should pray for such judgments, neither do I say one should not. One reason is that it depends upon the desperation of the person involved, and dealing with people in desperation one will find that they have motivations that are abnormal. And God has His own time tables and agendas in all that occurs, and He is the Judge not us. Consider how Mr. Obama speaks for the religious liberty of the Moslems and the contruction of one of their centers near ground zero, but where is the Attorney General showing up to defend the freedom of a Christian minister to pray in the name of Jesus in a city/county commission meeting or in a state legislature or as a chaplain in the US militay? I live a 55 minute drive down the road from where one of my ancestors participated in a battle of the American Revolution, Guilford Courthouse, serving as a 2nd Lt. in the Virginia Colonial Troops (that would be the second of the three lines of battle – the first being North Carolina troops and the third line being the U.S. Continentals). Recently, the state… Read more »
Christa Brown deserves more courtesy and respect than she is getting here. Disagree with her ideas all you want. But that isn’t what is happening. We’ve had a productive conversation regarding abuse in the SBC. As I said, you may not agree with her conclusions or her ideas, but I personally don’t have much doubt that without her, we wouldn’t have had the conversation at all.
One question: Why are we not discussing this under the right post?
Jeff T,
I think maybe it is because the subjects of both posts are so closely related.
Christa gets the respect and courtesy she has shown others. Bow down and worship all you want some of us have been dealing with this issue before Wade Burleson ever elevated her to saint status. And we’re still waiting for answers to those nasty little questions and the links to all those fabulos resorces she has available for churches.
Bess,
Do I know you?
CB, no I don’t believe so. I’ve “lurked” for quite a while on these blogs and this issue has compelled me to come out of lurking. I’ve seen Christa and her followers play this game before. Bill Mac should see some of the blogs where she’s attacked and demonized those who disagree with her National Database witch hunt idea and then how fast she turns around and pulls her victim card.
Bess, You hit the nail on the head. Christa, doesn’t want cooperation, she wants it her way. I commend her for some of the things she is doing, but she gets rather aggressive if we disagree. If Christa, can come up with good ways to tackle this problem, I would be the first to get in line. I would like to recommend her to come to our associational meeting, but I am afraid of how she might react if someone disagrees with her.
Jeff T. I’m waiting for her to post links telling what resources are available right now. She may be feverishly typing it as we speak cause it sure ain’t anywhere on website right now. Christa Brown sings one song with one note – national database or nothing and to heck with any consequences to the SBC. No Christa the poor dear is not known to play nicely when anyone disagrees.
Bill, you are simply wrong. Though this conversation is new to you, it has been the subject of many a discussion long before a disgraced, untrustworthy trustee decided to highlight a person with a hidden agenda.
Sorry to disagree, but your statement is simply wrong.
SSBN: See my response to CB. I was talking specifically about the SBC Voices post. Debbie and Christiane had been inserting off topic comments in a number of streams, and finally someone requested a SBC Voices topic on sex abuse in the SBC. It was directly in response to the accusations that the SBC coddles and protects sex abusers.
Bill, I’m aware of that post, but that doesn’t change the fact that a couple seem to think this is something new. It isn’t.
Bill Mac,
That is not the case. The 2007 action was not due to Christa Brown, but in spite of Christa Brown.
Well, I was talking about our recent SBC Voices conversation. Love her or hate her, she’s making a lot of noise, and I’m saying it is unlikely this blog would have turned to that topic without that noise.
Bill Mac,
If you will remember, I asked Dave Miller to write a post. he did not. Tony Kummer did.
Bill Mac, I have engaged Debbie and others in reference to this issue for a long time now. Every time, without exception, the true subject matter of the post and comment thread was or became the bashing of some or several SBC pastors or entity heads.
The post and comment thread by Tony Kummer has been the best yet in Blogtown. One reason it was good was that for the most part the subject of what to do about child abuse in Baptist life was kept at the forefront of the conversation and personalities were left to themselves. We also did not visit or revisit the CR every other comment.
Bill Mac, if you read the comment thread of the post, you will see when and why it began to fall apart.
I hope it was because of Christa Brown. She has the facts and she is the one who did all the leg work. Whatever the reason doesn’t really matter as long as it is discussed and not just discussed but something done about it. What Christa has brought out in facts and the mentioning of names is important. The reaction given to her, who is also a victim of sexual clergy abuse has been reprehensible and Southern Baptists should be ashamed.
It is always called bashing when the truth and names are brought out. The fact is that the SBC has treated this subject horribly. Those are the facts. I didn’t put the words into these men’s mouths. I didn’t treat Christa badly by shutting her out. They did. I just reported their actions, their words. Bashing? hardly. Wanting this kind of treatment to stop? You bet. Call them to be accountable? You bet.
Truth? Not always, but you did not care for or refused to hear the truth.
Bashing? Most assuredly if the right SBC person was the target.
Level of accomplishment for your efforts? Always attention for you. Nothing to help abused children.
Bess,
OK, but I am sure you have been around and inside the SBC for a while, right?
I was on the cradle roll CB. My family always sits on the piano side of the church. There are a couple churches in my town which aunts and uncles helped start as missions. I know a thing or two about the SBC.
And that is supposed to mean something Bess? Hardly. To say that a national data base would harm the SBC is a irresponsibly ignorant statement that is absolutely false. I would think we would want to do everything in our power to make sure our kids are safe.
“Bow down and worship all you want some of us have been dealing with this issue before Wade Burleson ever elevated her to saint status. ”
Yeah, this is the kind of response I was looking for. Call for respect and get accused of worship. I should have known better but it was worth a try. I might point out that as far as I know, you have said nothing productive since I have seen you posting here. You know how to rouse the amen corner but that’s about it. If your mission is follow Christa Brown around the blogosphere and warn people about her insidious influence, then by all means, carry on if that is what drives you.
Bill Mac you don’t like my bow down and worship comment but what does your amen corner imply about those agreeing with me? What you don’t seem to perceive here is that part of the problem with this issue is that Christa Brown and co. Have become part of the problem. The first thing that has to be done in these discussions is to point out the myth that nobody anywhere in the SBC cares about sexual abuse and that only Christa can save us with her national database. Then you have to explain why a national database is actually a bad idea for the SBC all the while having accusations hurled at you that you don’t really care about the children and Christa is the expert that we all have to submit to. Now if you want to read horrible accounts of child abuse and you want to read stories if conspiracy and cover ups Christa’s your gal. If you want ideas and solutions on how to protect children that doesn’t include an SBC damaging database? Yeah Christa could care less. So should raise up someone who many here agree has an ulterior motive? When is she gonna answer those simple questions about the SBC being damaged by a database? Where are links to all the resources available right now today?
And for the record Bill you didn’t look very hard if you think I’ve contributed nothing and you might want to check those date and time stamps as to who is following who.
Bess that is just a bunch of bologna. Where is your proof that it would damage the SBC. Christa has given statistics, victims of sexual abuse have commented on my blog and have emailed Christa. she has received so many emails that she can’t answer them all.
As for CB talking about this before Christa. I know that he and I began talking about it during the Darrel Gilyard fiasco, and Christa was writing about it even then, so I would say Christa is dong a very good job. She is an expert and worth listening to. What makes me angry about you Bess is that you are tearing down one thing that would be of use to protect our children and the only reason you are doing it is because it is me. Not because it makes sense for you to do so cause frankly it doesn’t and each year that we do not have a National data base is another year a child is abused. Is that worth it just because you hate me for whatever reason? You are like a female Joe Blackmon. In fact I think you may be Joe Blackmon.
What makes me so angry about this Debbie is that you have hijacked an issue that you nothing but blog about when othersare actually out in the real world doing something about it. The only way this concerns you is your clear hatred of all things SBC and you are hanging on to the very thing the SBC is not going to do. You hang Debbie not to be of any but because it’s a way you can continue your vitriol and attacks against the SBC. Let’s see how many lawyers have tried to explain it to you in simple terms that a database will damage the SBC and yet you still want to deny it? Here’s the question Debbie. IF. Big If Debbie pay attention here IF your sacred cow of the database is thought by legal experts to be able to be used as a tool to damage the SBC do you do it anyway? Real simple. Some people like you and Christa think everybody in the SBC is evil and the Great Commission doesn’t really matter and all those mean evil men deserve to be taken down and the SBC with it. Some us think that God has does and will work through the SBC. What should be perfectly clear now is how anybody who disagrees with a database is demonized. There are all kinds of reasons why real live people not blogging believe that a database won’t work. But those discussions won’t happen because when the heat is turned up on why a database is a bad idea, well that ol’ victim card gets played to shut down the debate. Christa is a victim! She’s the expert! What she says is absolute gospel! You cannot question her because she’s a victim! What these posts have proven is that a) there are those like Debbie and Christa who hate all things SBC and are using the issue if a database to bash and demonize and b) we know this is true because they have no evidence that they have added anything to this discussion except The SBC is evil they won’t do a database.
“And for the record Bill you didn’t look very hard if you think I’ve contributed nothing”
You are correct. I shouldn’t have said that, and I apologize.
But this conversation is degenerating rapidly, which is a shame because it started well, and went well for a long time, a much longer time than has been typical for this blog. In the short time you’ve been posting, you do seem to be the anti-Christa, so take that as constructive criticism for what it may be worth.
Debbie and Christiane: What are your other ideas besides a national database? This post isn’t about Christa Brown (or didn’t start that way). It’s about protecting people. The database idea has been debated. It has adherents and detractors. What else have you got?
Bill Mac, thank you for your apology. I know that I have not handled this well, but perhaps if not forgiveness can be given then at least understanding. A national database is a dead issue for the SBC. It is not going to happen. If you happen know any of the lawyers or the judges if the SBC you might understand why. The fact that a database isn’t going to happen doesn’t mean that the 44,000 churches are all full of evil men and nothing is being done. There are a lot of resources and there is a lot of work being done across the SBC. The darkness in the world is getting darker. It’s a tough job. But God is good all the time and we are making a difference. Hopefully, those lurking as I did previous to this will see is who are those serious about protecting children and who are those who only want to hurt the SBC. It’s really not that hard to discern.
Bess, You speak with even more bitterness than the self righteous men commenting on this blog. Unlike the all knowing men commenting on the subject of Baptist clergy sexual abuse, I don’t know their hearts or yours. I do hear your words which spring from your heart. It seems the SBC and the Great Commission have become your idols. They seem to be more important than dealing with so called “men of God” who sexually abuse the innocent, the vulnerable, the weak and the wounded. Why would you wait with baited breath for Christa Brown to say that whatever efforts made to stop Baptist predators must not in any way damage the SBC or the “Great Commission”. That seems to be your priority, not CB’s. Someone has to put the protection of children before the protection of the SBC and ministers who claim to live for God but live for their own deviant lust. Do you REALLY believe the Creator of the Universe needs the SBC…or the latest SBC organized marketing gimmick to shine His light in the darkness? How man centered and prideful! Yet many of you point fingers accusing CB of your own sin. You snarl and arrogantly imply that L’s can’t possibly be the Christian that YOU are. (Thank you Father) What bothers you most? Their intelligence, courage, being Catholic, or all of the above?? Many of your remarks about and to Christa Brown are completely untrue. But you say them anyway. You seem to expect others to prove facts to you personally. May I suggest you research before you metaphorically spit at those who don’t speak about the horrors of sexual abuse in the way you want them to. The Bible says God is love. Our children sing Jesus loves the little children. That’s probably not found in the SBC creed, “Bess”. I’m positive that the people attacked on this blog have spoken with more self control, kindness, and humility than their attackers. Be sure and yell Jesus with just the correct Baptist inflection tomorrow from your pulpits. Be proud and feel righteous if anyone walks to the front and repeats the prayer you ask them to. God couldn’t do it without all you courageous guys! What’s the big deal about sacrificing a few innocent victims to a minister predator when people are still coming forward and being baptized? You can come back on the blog… Read more »
????? “thank you, Gene.”??? Gene???? Why and how could anyone thank Gene?????
Where do you guys come from???? What Galactic Star Ship brought you here?
Joseph thank you for proving many of the points I’ve made here to be true.
QUOTE Do you REALLY believe the Creator of the Universe needs the SBC END QUOTE
Not to confuse you with facts, but the point of this thread is “using the SBC to fight child abuse.”
It appears you might have missed that point in your eagerness to jump on the SBC-haters wagon.
I do, however, agree with you in principle: God does not need the SBC. But, then again, following that logic, he certainly does not need you. So, what then is the purpose of your blathering?
Attack a person’s propositions if you will — that’s the purpose of blogging. But, you don’t make your self stand higher by stomping others into the ground.
PS — I plead guilty to the same offense at times.
Debbie,
How is Christa an expert?
For that matter, have you, Debbie Kaufman, ever worked with abused children in any ongoing manner? How many abused children have you served in their behalf as an advocate in court Debbie? How many have you interviewed? How many have you taken into your home? How much of your own money have you spent for the protection of an abused child? How much of your own money have you spent on lawyers for abused children? How many times have you gone into an abusive situation and removed a child from harms way? How many perps and pedophiles have you taken down hard? What countries have you traveled to in order to help abused children? How many orphanages have you helped start?
Yeah Debbie, I was talking about this before Christa. I was talking about this before blogs, chat rooms, my space or email. I was talking about it before I was a Christian or a Baptist. And I did something about it within and without the law. And I was certainly talking about this and doing something before you picked it for your new springboard.
Debbie, you can blow smoke all you want, but don’t tell me I have not done anything. I still have the scars and nightmares to prove it. I also have a bunch of kids who are not of my blood but call me Pa.
Through the years I have tried to talk to you about the “truth” but you will not hear it.
Debbie, you have said to Bess and to others that they make you “angry.” Well guess what Debbie, you don’t make me angry. You just make me sick.
CB: That shouldn’t even be a question. First she is a victim herself. That makes one an expert pretty darn fast. Secondly she has done all the research, legwork, using her skills as an attorney she has come up with some very startling facts. She has studied the statistics, talked to a host of other victims, she is an expert in this field. She knows what she is talking about, any one with any sense whatsoever should dialog with and listen to her. What “truth” have you tried to tell me CB? None that I know of. The facts are there CB and you say they aren’t by your version of the “truth”. I’ve heard a lot of rhetoric come out of you but not a whole lot of truth. CB you seem to have some real problems yourself that you can’t seem to deal with and I can’t help you with. Giving your own version of the truth, making yourself to be something that you are not, and words that not a whole lot of people can make sense of are just a few of them. So no I don’t want to hear a bunch of words that are not true, and no I do not want to hear your version of the truth. Which is anything but.
As far as my personal history, that CB is none of your business. I will say I do know what I am talking about. But as to how I know, that you will not find out ever.
Debbie,
I have already been introduced to your history. You connect the dots.
Debbie, I don’t think C.B. deserves any response from you at all.
I would just ignore him when he is having a tantrum.
Keep on using her L’s.
You use her until something better comes along. In that fashion you are a lot like MoKhan. But, remember this, the way you use her is also a form of abuse.
Debbie,
Tell me what I have made myself that I am not? Your ignorance is Legion.
Debbie, I asked you some questions about your involvement with abused children. I have asked you some of those questions before. You have never answered one question because you can give no affirmative answer to any of them and we both know it. You can’t give an answer, because you do not have one. You just blow smoke and make some people sick with it. Me included.
BTW, being a victim does not make one an expert. It makes on a victim. But of course, there are some people that become experts at being a “victim.”
CB: You are a bully, although a pretty poor one. I’m not intimidated at all. You, Joe, Bess, make one weary, but are hardly intimidating to me. More like make me weary. You talk a big talk, but really aren’t very big at all.
Well Debbie,
I am glad you are not intimidated. And you are right. I am not very big at all. You are also right in saying as a bully, I am a “pretty poor one.
Now, look around. Find one messed up kid. Help that kid. That will be a good start.
I didn’t realize the topic was “Who spoke up about clergy sexual abuse” first. Or “Who is the expert on child sexual abuse”. If it will cause ACTION to be taken that gets sexual predators out of the Baptist pulpits, I’m sure Debbie OR Christa will be glad to crown CB the hero or the winner. I’ll get a banner made!
No matter how anyone has twisted this in their minds, those who have been sexually abused just want it to stop. We don’t want anymore lives altered by this horrible sin. We just want those who have no voice to be protected, to be seen, to be treated with respect. We grew up singing: ..”they(we) are precious in His sight” so surely we are precious in the sight of God’s people…aren’t we?
How can anything good be accomplished when there are “spitting competitions” between those who claim to be followers of Christ?
But the Catholic lady can’t be…so attack her. How dare she articulate her beliefs so well and so respectfully to others.
The woman, Debbie, shouldn’t be shown any respect for her shock and outrage that vulnerable young girls are being violated in the most vile and sadistic way possible by ministers! Let her know who the BETTER Christian is!
And Christa Brown…she should have known better than to be vulnerable, to have trusted the ministers at the church she loved and saw as a refuge. She has to feel superior and powerful when she relives being repeatedly and brutally raped by the man she believed to be a man of God. The “safe” minister who was concerned for her spiritual well being.
Rip open her wounds until you can actually see the blood flowing again! How dare she speak out against any man belonging to the “God ordained”, SBC or any Baptist!
Some drip with anger and arrogance but this post began with expressing regret, repentance, and humility for having prayed to be heard by others. Who will pray the best in church later today!
Joseph you sure must love Christa a whole lot. You “sound” just like her. What a coinkydink that Christa used the name Joe to tell the story of victim of the SBC over on her blog. And you know what’s even more weird? That story was an alot like Christa story. Weird huh? Christa Brown has a reputation for attacking those who don’t worship her as a victim and now she’s not here but along comes Joe using the same rhetoric as Christa. Well that Christa she does have her fans so of course she can call in the calvery to firm up her position that only Christa Brown knows what to with child predators in the SBC and she has declared that only national database will do anything and in fact that’s really all that’s necessary. The really no point in continuing this discussion – Christa has made her declarations and Debbie has declared Christa the expert.
No. I’m not Joseph. I’ve written a lot. I’ve been very public. I use my name. I use my full name. And I use my real name. That’s more than I can say for “Bess” … or is it “bess” … or is it “Randy” or is it “Dorothy”? There’s nothing weird about the fact that many Baptist clergy abuse survivors have similar stories. The patterns are similar — that’s the problem. They keep repeating themselves. I wish I had a dollar for everytime someone has read my book and written me to say something along the lines of “Your story is my story.” Not only are the patterns of abuse similar — i.e., the use of the kid’s own faith as a weapon and the use of Scripture as a weapon — but so too are the sometimes-even-more-devastating patterns of what happens later — i.e., the hostile and do-nothing responses that the kid gets when he grows up and reaches the point that he wants to try to tell people about it. I’ve been very clear that I’ve never said “national or nothing.” But I do think that, as a faith community with a shared identity, Southern Baptists must find a way to responsibly and compassionately listen to those who have been wounded within the faith community. This is so, not only for purposes of prevention, but also for ministry and moral obligation. Most child molesters have more than one victim and most victims are typically incapable of speaking about it until much later in life. These 2 realities mean that one of the most effective ways to prevent child molestation in the future is to institutionally listen to those who are trying to tell about abuse in the past. That’s the prevention side of things. But I also believe that the faith community has a moral obligation to reach out to those who have been so horribly wounded within the faith community and to attempt to minister to them. One way to help them is to simply have a safe place and a system for hearing them. The church of the accused perpetrator will almost never be a safe place for the wounded person. Telling clergy abuse survivors to go to the church is like telling them to go to the den of the wolf who savaged them. It will never work. And it’s not because church people… Read more »
CB: I would be concerned even if this weren’t personal. It’s not hard to find a messed up kid or kid who is now adult, that’s how huge this problem is. Christa is overwhelmed with emails from victims. They found someone who understands and they are emailing her so fast she can’t handle all the emails. It’s not hard to find a messed up kid and thankfully Christa has been reaching out to them and helping them, which this National database would do more so, for a long time. The only way to help them is to prevent others from going through the same thing they are. By listening to them and reaching out to them in the same way SBC as reached out to predators. Predators get extended counseling, while victims receive nothing from the churches or the SBC. What’s wrong with that picture?
Debbie, I think this is the best and most reasonable comment you have ever made relating to the problem of child abuse in Baptist life. Look, I just do not know if a data base is possible in the SBC due to its inherent structure. I don’t know if it is possible to get Southern Baptist churches to cooperate in such a whole scale effort to make a database effective. In addition there are a number of inherent problems with the establishment of a database. None of which demonstrate a lack of care on the part of SBC leadership. There are just genuine obstacles that may be insurmountable. Yet, there are some things we are doing. LifeWay has made some valuable help available to churches if they would use. Some state conventions, such as Alabama, do provide excellent counseling for children if churches would use it. Frankly, there is help for churches if they would just use it. There is help in Baptist life, if churches and people would actually use it. Do I believe that the SBC could do more about this problem? Yes I do. So could state conventions, local associations and certainly individual churches could do a lot more. And we must do a lot more. Child abuse in Baptist life and our culture in general is a growing problem. Therefore, it is high time to stop looking around for someone in leadership to blame the problem on constantly. It is time to start asking leadership on all levels to develop ways and means to educate and persuade churches to do everything they can possible do to protect children from harm of any kind. Also, churches and church leaders of all stripes, vocational and volunteer need to be made far more conscious of the fact they are accountable to report any known child abuse that happens within the scope of the ministry of their churches, no matter who the perp is who has committed the crime. Debbie, I apologize for offending you. I should not have been so harsh with you. That was failure on my part, no matter what the circumstance. Nonetheless Debbie, you will get far more done if you will cease to attack pastors and entity heads for what you consider their failures in handling child abuse and begin to ask for SBC leaders to do what they can to address the problem. Because… Read more »
QUOTE while victims receive nothing from the churches END QUOTE
You ask, “What’s wrong with that picture?” I’ll tell you: it is a flat-out lie.
Debbie, why do you slam people you do not know with statements that are flat-out lies? I’ve been counselling and caring for victims for going on four decades now — long before you fashioned yourself as a self-made celebrity blogger.
You, and people like you, are the reason progress is slow. I know first-hand what abuse does and I know first-hand how God protects those He loves.
Please, get off your SBC-bashing soapbox on this issue. It is clear “you” are “your” favorite issue.
I’m tired of the flat-out lies you consistently cast into the blogosphere that will no doubt become someone’s false belief.
To play with an issue like this for personal gain is very disturbing to me.
What personal gain? I am certainly not getting rich off of this. I’m certainly not getting fame nor have I raised in stature in the church. I have no position in the SBC so what personal gain? It’s painful to read survivors stories. Read them and tell me it’s a lie. Start off with Tiffany Crofts blog who was threatened by those who would not wish her to write on her blog, even giving her an injunction to shut it down. Tell Tiffany Croft that it’s a lie. Tell those whose stories appear on STOPBaptistPredators that it is a lie. The only personal gain I want is for children to be safe.
Read their stories here and tell them that they are lying. I dare you SSBN. You can find the stories, which are numerous here. These stories are as late as 2003. Pretty recent. In the link I gave read all of them, but in particular Three Baptist ministers and My Niece, which is particularly compelling.
Then read Tiffany’s blog.
http://stopbaptistpredators.org/survivor_stories.html
Sorry, I messed up on the link. So here is the correct link.
Here is Tiffany Croft’s blog. Read it and there is a lot of reading. Darrell Gilyard was not arrested until last year. Long story short, he was in Southern Baptist pulpits preaching almost right up to the day of his arrest. He received counseling paid for in full by the SBC, Tiffany and his other victims did not. Tiffany paid a high price for writing this blog. A very high price. Tell Tiffany she is lying SSBN.
http://tiffanycroft.blogspot.com/
Louis the lawyer where are you? Debbie says your ignorant and have no idea what your talking about in regards to the legal ramifications of a national database. Me personally, I think Debbie is a student of Saul Alinsky – she thinks she can just continue making declarations contray to what lawyers say in regards to a national database and people will just start to believe it. Don’t even ask about the Great Commission and the purpose of the SBC.
SSBN: in reference to your comment below:
” Christiane, I’m not sure where you received your degree in N.T. Greek, but it your interpretation of Romans 8:24 is not found in any Greek source I’m aware of.
Then again, I’m not really sure what you mean by the term “already saved,” but I suspect it is not substantiated by the indicative aorist in the passage.”
If you are interested in an exploration of Romans 8:24 from my faith’s perspective, check out the encyclical letter:
‘Spe Salvi’
and read from the introduction, as far as you need to go.
The reference to Romans 8:24 is IN the introduction, but there is a follow-up discussion. Very clear, I think. It’s not difficult reading.
SSBN, here is the Spe Salvi site for your reference:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi_en.html
Christiane, I’ll check out your link and then comment.
Hey, Joe #81: Why don’t you just say what you mean instead of beating around the bush 🙂
SSBN,
I am trying to work on speaking my mind. I realize I’m a little too subtle.
Gene has offered an apologetic on how Mormons are real Christians and that the Islamic faith can save a person yet still professes to be a Christian. Therefore, I talk to him the way he deserves to be talked to. If you’ve ever read the graphic novel The Watchmen, Roarshach’s observation on the difference between criminals and dogs is applicable to Gene in my opinion.
Joe—
Let’s keep it simple: You are fulla bulla!!!!!
That which you cannot debate away, you distort away!!!!
On the topic of propaganda, just curious: we’re you driving your kids to a public school?
Strange, I thought this blog was about Prayer as propaganda, but it looks like the blog on sexual abusers has spilled over into this one.
Dr. Willingham…you know how it goes in blogging. Folks gotta go fishing from hole to hole when what they catch in one hole doesn’t satisfy their desires. Some folks set up holes for bass fishing and someone comes along trying to fish for those muck-swallowing catfish. Just the way of life. selahV