I was driving my kids to school this morning when the news segment came on K-LOVE. Usually it’s cut and paste from Associated Press, but today they ran a story asking for prayer against the website WikiLeaks. According to them, Christians should join together to ask God to intervene against this “radical” news source. They cited the upcoming release of more documents about the war in Afganistan saying this could be dangerous for the US military and civilian informants.
Here’s my problem. This approach to journalism turns prayer into a tool for controlling public opinion. Never mind if WikiNews is exposing a government coverup or actually telling us the truth about this war. This story on K-LOVE is an attempt to bypass any real thinking about the issue. It’s as if pray is the password that shortcuts any rational evaluation. Just ask for prayer and Christians will support your cause.
Did anyone pray that God would suppress the truth about Watergate?
What about Vietnam?
This reminds me of the disgruntled deacon who wanted to discredit his pastor. Instead of the normal tactic of private slander he offered a prayer request. “I think we need to pray for Pastor Joe, we all know he’s been struggling lately. Let’s just pray that God will help him work out his anger issues. I don’t want to spread rumors, but keep his wife & kids in your prayers too.”
Certainly the issues raised by WikiLeaks are more complicated than a 30 second news clip. But this wasn’t news after all, just a propaganda prayer request.
What other examples have you seen like this? Leave a comment.
The source behind the K-LOVE story was the “Presidential Prayer Team” which has been profiled by snopes.com. In case you haven’t guessed, Fox News has been critical of WikLeaks.
I have been in church prayer meetings where asking for prayer was a way to gossip. “Oh, we need to pray for Ida Lou. She sure has took t’drinking real heavy like and she stays over at that Johnson boy’s place a lot lately. Her poor husband don’t got a clue. We need to payr for them”. The point was to spread word about what Ida Lou was doing rather than expressing any concern over her need to repent.
JoeB and I find common ground.
I have been in those same prayer meetings; and choir practice seemed to know no end on occasion when the women got to praying,coding the latest sins in the community they had to be sure everyone knew about to keep the lines defined between Us and Them.
I’m sure propaganda prayers have been said over me, although I cannot think of any just now. There are times I have prayed before the congregation in a way to communicate my point of view on some subject (usually a program I wanted the church to adopt), and I was really speaking to the congregation rather than to God. Although it wasn’t to spread gossip, I am afraid that may qualify as propaganda prayer. On the other hand, we all remember Wiley Drake’s “impecatory prayers” that President Obama would die, and I suspect that qualifies as propaganda prayer, though no… Read more »
I remember a story from the 60’s in the Floyd County Baptist Association where there was some conflict and Forrest Lanier called on a brother to pray for some easing of tensions, and before he could pray another brother rose to say in effect we all know this fellow is on the Pro side of this issue; so I would like for you to call on someone who is with us on the Anti side to pray following him.
I paraphrase but that is the way I heard the story.
On the other hand, we all remember Wiley Drake’s “impecatory prayers” that President Obama would die
Reprehensible. Disagree with the man’s policies all you want, and I do, but calling for his death?? He’s a total whack job.
We are in agreement, Joe.
John
John Fariss, You are a bold and honest man to admit that you have prayed publicly supposedly in petition to God, but in reality you were sending a message of your personal desire to your people. I too have done that same thing. Shamefully, I must admit that praying in such a manner has been a struggle through the years, so much so, that from time-to-time, I have found myself praying for help in prayer before I prayed publicly. What a wretch, huh? I also relate to you saying you have had “propaganda prayers” prayed over you. Years ago I… Read more »
I don’t believe in prison time for child abuse. Execution maybe, public castration, maybe, but not a few years in jail. Unfortunantly, I know that castration (public, private, surgical, chemical, etc.) does not always work because sexual crimes are not always about sex; sometimes they are about power or control, and in those cases, the presence or absence of genitalia is not the controling issue. In Talladega, the building that served as the town’s police department until about 1971 (and was then torn down, with some difficulty, it was so sound structurally) had previously been the County Jail, built in… Read more »
“I don’t believe in prison time for child abuse. Execution maybe, public castration, maybe, but not a few years in jail.”
John Fariss,
I always “believed” you were a fine Christian gentleman, scholar and all around stand up guy. Now I “know” that I am absolutely correct in my assumption. May your tribe increase!!
My all-time favorite teacher was Mr. Palmer, taught 8th grade English. Seems to be a great guy; helped me be a better writer and got a few of us interested in computers and technology. When we were in the 9th grade, Mr. Palmer was arrested for aggravated sexual assault of a minor. We, of course, had a hard time believing the accusations. But then there were pictures and videos of our former English teacher with one of his new 8th grade students who he was supposedly acting as a “father figure” to. Dude pled guilty, went to prison, but was… Read more »
Even better, let the father of the victim handle it. I know letting someone take their revenge is wrong and I shouldn’t even suggest something like that. However, if I knew some lowlife had molested some man’s kid and I saw that man beating the ever lovin’ snot out of him I can promise you I’m going to have a sudden memory loss if I get questioned by the cops as to what I saw.
stay on topic
I wouldn’t expect much more. Have you seen the stuff people in our churches forward to each other in the name of “prayer requests” that are nothing more than slander about elected officials, etc.?
The implication usually being that salvation is of the ‘Pubs and all Demo’s are Satan’s little trained minions.
@Josh: YES!
Maybe a resolution for #SBC2011 “On the scandal of evangelical email forwarding.”
I’m serious. It’s really bad for our witness.
That’s funny, Tony!
Speaking of propaganda style prayers – you should check out my attempt on this old SBC Voices post:
An Urgent Prayer Request
See?
This is the junk we should expect from the CR crowd from now on. Next CR folks will be praying imprecatory prayers against the President.
Oh wait…
This is a joke to lead off a Monday morning and nothing more. Volfan, just back away from the keyboard and Joe, there’s kittens that need to be punched this morning.
🙂
Thank you for this post, as it describes my feelings about what I just heard on K-LOVE perfectly. Christianity and its tenets just as prayer are being wielded as a political weapon, and is only inflicting harm on itself. Thank you for calling this out.
I have to confess mild, and sometimes more enthusiastic, amusement at some of the public prayers I’ve heard. I know whenever we have a pastor from somewhere else visiting in our congregation, say on vacation, if our pastor asks him to pronounce the benediction, what we really get is a second sermon. I lean, rightly or wrongly, to praying they way Jesus said and the way He did. He said not to pray thinking we’d be heard for our many words, or pray so people could hear us, but to get alone with God and pray in secret. And that’s… Read more »
“As to child abusers, what I always think of is getting a big box of drywall screws and an electric drill, and start screwing their clothes to their body. Including their ski mask.”
WOW Bob!!!!
Not I, nor has anyone I know in the past or present ever done that! I did not realize there was a dark side to your nature. Maybe you, Fariss and I should start up a new security agency. We could call it:
Old Dudes With Guns: Pedophile Hunters Are Us. 🙂
I like it. I have a nice Colt New Service Revolver (circa 1910), 7.5 inch barrel, chambered for a .45 Long Colt cartridge. That makes a .45 APC look like a .22. I was always a pretty good shot, but if a slug from that even whizzes close to a pedophile’s genitals, it’ll burn ’em off. And shotguns and old knives are easy to come by.
John
Razor blades, two sixteen penny nails, a hammer and a small bottle of lighter fluid are also inexpensive and there are tree stumps in all the woodlands and swamps of North America.
John,…..Bob,…..I can see this thing coming together.
Do either one of you know how to sing? I think our theme song should be that Toby Keith-Willie Nelson song, “Whiskey For My Men, Beer For My Horses.” 🙂
Hi BOB CLEVELAND,
I can understand the anger of men towards perpetrators of unspeakable abuse;
but I must say that I wish there was as much fervor for the PROTECTION of innocent people in the Church from these perpetrators. It’s just not there. I don’t understand this, Bob.
oh my goodness… Christiane, do you honestly think that people in the churches dont have a fervor to get pedophiles out of the churches? Really? I can guarantee you that if a pedophile came into my church, and we found out about it; well, the law would probably have to be called to save the life of the pedophile. And, Christiane, in a post about the wrong kind of praying, why do you seek to make this another comment thread about the big, bad, Southern Baptist leaders out there, who dont care about child molestors….especially the scary fundies that led… Read more »
Hi DAVID, something is wrong when victims are blamed, and told ‘not to go to the police’ and put up in front of congregations to say that they are ‘sinners’, because they became pregnant (under-age, of course) by their predator-pastor-abuser. something is wrong when organizations that try to speak for victims of abuse are called ‘evil-doers’ by those in authority in the SBC and something is wrong when people are castigated for speaking up about ‘something BEING wrong’, David. Take a look, if you dare, and see if you can justify the examples given on this site: http://stopbaptistpredators.org/collusion_institutions.html Would be… Read more »
Christine, The problem is that if we disagree with Ms. Brown in anyway then we are not on board. I do have a question: How do we know that her attempts to contact leaders (SBC) is word for word as she tells it. How do I know that her encounter with Richard Land was exactly as she tells it. I concur with CB, and others. However, Debbie’s style of dealing with it really makes it hard to work with her and others.
please stay on topic
Off Topic: I am looking for how many people the SBC baptized in 2009. Where can I find those numbers?
And you castigate the other thread hijackers?!?
🙂
Bill, The difference is “I.” 🙂 The difference I am not 24/7 bashing the SBC. I need help with a sermon illustration…..I need help in general. 🙂
I have to admit that this comment thread scares me just a little bit. John Farriss, CB, and Bob Cleveland uniting as vigilantes. “The God Squad – Street Justice for Abusers Everywhere.”
Christiane: You said:”Hi BOB CLEVELAND, I can understand the anger of men towards perpetrators of unspeakable abuse; but I must say that I wish there was as much fervor for the PROTECTION of innocent people in the Church from these perpetrators. It’s just not there. I don’t understand this, Bob.” Amen, and what is the SBC doing to protect innocent people in the 45,000 + churches from the perpetrators. Wasn’t this suppossed to be studied a couple of years ago? Was there actually a study? What is the current plan or is there no plan by the leaders of the… Read more »
Hi LTB, There is a references to what you are asking: check the third entry down specifically: http://stopbaptistpredators.org/collusion_individuals.html and a much more complete discussion on your concern if here: http://stopbaptistpredators.org/article08/what_would_jesus_say.html I am Catholic and I hate to see this nightmare ignored by ‘leaders’ and left to the women of the Church to try to address. My own Church ignored the problem and covered up the scandal and finally dealt with it, but much too late. And then I cannot believe or accept how much grief is directed towards these ladies. I know that they are trying to do the right… Read more »
Christiane: I am on the risk management committee at our church. In order to work with children, one must submit to a background check; two people are always required to be present so no adult is ever with a child alone; one must be credentialed to enter our children’s wing, and we have a police officer on premises all times when church is in session. All children’s areas are covered by recording security cameras. And if there was something else we should be doing, rest assured we’d be doing it. I have no sway over what other churches do, but… Read more »
As a lifelong member of the Boy Scouts of America, I cannot even begin to stress the importance of “Two Deep” leadership which requires two adults at all times.
Jeff T: You said:”Christine, The problem is that if we disagree with Ms. Brown in anyway then we are not on board. I do have a question: How do we know that her attempts to contact leaders (SBC) is word for word as she tells it. How do I know that her encounter with Richard Land was exactly as she tells it. I concur with CB, and others. However, Debbie’s style of dealing with it really makes it hard to work with her and others” Wow, it has to be word for word and you are saying Debbie K is… Read more »
My apologies for going ‘off topic’, but I couldn’t let certain comments pass from those who care about children, without adding my own.
Sometimes, it is best to speak up, openly and honestly, in the hope that it will do some good. Hope is good thing.
Your response illustrates the problem. One cannot disagree in anyway. I am not making excuses, but why should I just believe what others have said that Land did or did not do. Again, I said it makes it hard (I did not say I cannot work with them) to work with them because they want you to do everything their way.
Jeff T:
You said:”Your response illustrates the problem. One cannot disagree in anyway. I am not making excuses, but why should I just believe what others have said that Land did or did not do. Again, I said it makes it hard (I did not say I cannot work with them) to work with them because they want you to do everything their way.”
Maybe you could research for yourself what Land said and then you might be satisfied.
You seem to be someone who would be hard to convince of something.
Dave Miller, Would it be possible for you guys who own this blog to put up a post about the problem of child abuse in Baptist life and let it be discussed without beating on past and present SBC pastors, entity heads and administrators. It is a real issue and needs to be addressed, but Jeff T and Bob Cleveland are right in their comments here. Some folks have declared open season on Baptist leadership, local, state and national as a whole. That is a very poor approach, especially when some of us have done far more to directly deal… Read more »
1) I don’t own the blog. I’m not even the administrator. I just write articles from time to time and overstep my authority by deleting offensive comments and shutting down comment streams.
2) I do not think what you propose is possible. While we all agree that predatory pastors should be dealt with (frankly, some of you have some “creative” solutions – wow), the sides have been pretty well set.
If BDW or anyone else wishes to attempt such an article, I would certainly submit it to Matt for consideration.
I’ll be serious in this post. I don’t think that you can divorce the problem of child abuse in the Southern Baptist Church without have a critical discourse about local, state, or national SBC leadership. I, for one, am very much in favor of either a database or tracking system used for complaints against or confirmed cases of child abuse and the perpetrator. I worked for a church that quickly and quietly got rid of a youth pastor mired in accusations of child abuse and he went to work for at least two other churches before he finally wound up… Read more »
I’m going to suggest that we all try something new. How about we stay on topic and not go off into some kind of tangent?
Well, if the topic is prayer and whether or not it is ‘appropriate’ a.k.a. ‘propaganda’, then perhaps some of the discussion has been related to topic, if one remembers the words from Christ’s Prayer . . .
‘libera nos a malo’ . . .
Can’t think of a better prayer for our times.
For the record I have been innocent in this latest tangent escapade; I did not participate, or otherwise aid and abet.
I was happy with the prayer testimonies and other anecdotal material; and was platformed to provide another one when the tangent minions erupted in full fray.
Dave,
Seriously, I don’ think sides are as set as you might think here. I think that many guys here and elsewhere see the problem as very serious, but do not really want to make any substantial contributions on any of the nutcase blogs. In my case, at least, when I do visit the nutcase blogs, I end up having to defend someone who I know has been falsely accused of harboring criminals.
Would it not be possible to discuss the issues without a CR pro-con fight or a “pick a CR leader and Hang ’em High” party?
C.B.
I take it that you do not want any of these men written about:
http://stopbaptistpredators.org/collusion_individuals.html
Do you think that Christa has given the wrong information in any of these cases, C.B. ?
If so, which ones ?
I went to your link. The problem is they she mixes it up real good. Morris Chapman is a judgment statement on her part, I figure she got back because Dr. Chapman did not do what she wanted. The pastor at Sylvia Hills Baptist Church she provides no source so how can we know. Where are her sources?
L’s,
Is the primary need to bash old men that you don’t like or to help endangered children and rescue those who have already been abused?
Answer that question and we can talk.
I think Christiane’s response kinda makes my point, CB.
Perhaps you also wish for no mention to be made of these people.
I don’t know that. But, if someone like Aaron Weaver (BDW) were to write a blog on what IS happening, there will be some need to explore what has and has not been done, and by WHOM, and WHY.
If such a topic is put out there for debate, that is not going to be ‘comfortable’ for some people, David.
I can honestly understand that. But maybe it should be laid out on the table anyway. Maybe it’s time. Or past time.
It’s not my call.
Christiane, please either demonstrate someplace in which I advocated that victims of predators should be silenced, or stop posting such accusations.
Dave,
Of course you’ve said that. You’re an inerrantist, a complimentarian, and believe in salvation through repentance from sin and faith in Jesus Christ alone. Surely you know that no one who holds to such theological positions cares anything about truth or protecting inncent chidlren. You didn’t have to say the words. Believing like you believe proves that you don’t care about children. (/sarcash)
Well, at least in the mind of L’s and Cough-man.
Dave,
Maybe you are right. But if you are it is a terrible shame. And we should be ashamed.
What amazes me is how afraid churches are to share information with each other about previous employees, even the ones who leave on their own because they feel like God is calling them a different church.
The reality that Christa Brown and many others who want a national database fail to recognize is that the problem is local, not national. What I mean is that very often the ministers accused of child abuse tend to stay close fairly close to the communities where the abuse took place. Many stay in the same state or the same region. Rarely do those who are accused go across the country to find their next church. Thus, the solution must be local as well. I actually suggested this to Christa Brown some time back and offered to help her to… Read more »
It is my opinion that D.R.Randle is correct here: “What needs to be done is train DOM’s and state convention workers so that they can in turn train search committees. Such work in local channels would go a long way in eradicating repeat child abuse, but certainly doesn’t guarantee that new abusers couldn’t surface.” I think that if we just began to dialogue with specific focus on the points D.R. Randle brings to light in just this single statement we could begin to see possibilities of how to approach a beginning to solve this problem we have. (and we do… Read more »
Why doesn’t Christa post that people have tried to help but she doesn’t want their type of help?
Jeff, I actually went and located one post on Christa’s blog where I offered to personally help her to connect with pastors in her area (which she ignored) and while doing so I noticed that several others have offered to help, but asked her to tone down her rhetoric and work within the system (but to no avail). Christa is hailed by many as a champion against abuse, but I wonder how much more she could actually have done had she actually worked with pastors, local associations, and state conventions instead of yelling at them? Southern Baptists are always being… Read more »
QUOTE “What needs to be done is train DOM’s and state convention workers so that they can in turn train search committees. END QUOTE Bad approach in my opinion. Inserting their authority where it does not belong in regard to search committees has created a disaster in California. It’s starts innocently enough: train the search committee. It soon becomes, get them to call someone we (DOM, State) approve of. Churches should do what my predecessor did: offer names for the committee to consider (one at a time) and then let the church make the final decision. Of course, this method… Read more »
SSBN, You are correct about DOM’s. I have a great one in my area, but I am leary of letting them have too much power in the local church, however, we need to do something!
SSBN and Jeff,
I understand your concerns, but almost every Church in our area consults with the local DOM’s on their pastor search process. From what I understand this is fairly regular practice. I’m not advocating more of it, but my point is that we might as well use the structure already in place to train pastor search committees how to avoid hiring those who are or may be sex offenders.
D.R. Randle, unfortunately the only persons (and there have been many) who have been eliminated in the search committees led by my previous DOM was anybody who claimed to be conservative.
No — as in zero — child abusers were discovered in the process in my 5 year tenure — only conservatives.
You do as you wish: I’ll continue to fight for local church autonomy.
This is in reply to comment #64 by SSBN: ” . . . unfortunately the only persons (and there have been many) who have been eliminated in the search committees led by my previous DOM was anybody who claimed to be conservative.” SSBN is lying. He keeps making claims about his former DOM that are simply not true. (How does a DOM lead a search committee, anyway?) If it were true, how could SSBN have been called to my former church on Main St? I almost wish it were true. Then maybe church attendance would not have gone from 120… Read more »
The reality that Christa Brown and many others who want a national database fail to recognize is that the problem is local, not national. This, THIS, THIS!!!!! As much as she, Cough-man, and others WANT this to be a national cover up (and, of course, all Paige Patterson’s fault), it just isn’t. It happens and something needs to be done about it. However, what you have is not a situation like the Catholic Church where upper level officials had the authority to move a priest from one parrish to another without letting anyone know that he was a monster and… Read more »
Hi JOE, Am I misunderstanding you. Are you saying that, because if in the SBC, leaders know that a man is a monster, and they DO NOTHING, that they are absolved of all responsibility, as the monster goes from one Church to another? Don’t you think that knowledge (knowing someone is a monster) involves at least a MORAL responsibility? Of COURSE, the bishops who moved predators around to different parishes were terribly wrong to do it, but they did it actively, all the while knowing that the new parish had no clue what they would be dealing with. So they… Read more »
No, what I am saying is that no one in SBC leadership took Pastor Whatshisname out of one church and put him in another church because there is no mechanism to do that in the SBC. I most certainly did not say if Dr. X knew that Pastor Y had molested a child in a church and that Pastor Y was up for a gig in another church that Dr. X should not inform that new church.
THANK YOU!!!!
So you acknowledge the need for
a way that those leaders in the SBC who KNOW
can alert those in Churches who DON’T KNOW.
🙂
You got it, Christiane. You see what’s real.
I nave never said that only a national database would do, and to the contrary, I have repeatedly and publicly urged action at the state level. I have been very public about it, I have made press statements, and have written a lot on my blog about trying to get the largest of the Baptist statewide conventions to do something. I also communicated with statewide (and local) Baptist officials in Georgia and Florida. Of course, I’ve talked with many other clergy abuse survivors who have attempted to communicate with statewide Baptist officials in many other states. The patterns are almost… Read more »
Christa Brown has made a profession out of being of victim. She has zero interest in helping churches at a local level to guard against child predators. She wants a national witchhunt and nothing more. People who hate all things SBC have hijacked this veryimportant issue for their own personal vendettas. Watch those whoever refuse to discuss ways this issue can be dealt with right now at a local level and you’ll see those who care only about destroying the SBC an not protecting chlidren. By the time a predators name makes it into a national database a child has… Read more »
“Bess”, what religion are you?
Um, condecending much? Cause of course anyone who would be critical of Christa Brown or Cough-man can’t possibly be a Christian. After all, real Christians are theologically moderate to liberal. They certainly are those mean old hateful fundy’s that actually believe salvation is through repentance from sin and faith in Christ exclusively**, right? **Before I forget, I better add that caveat that you require to spell it out for you–“…assuming they do not suffer from some sort of mental imparement that would prevent them from understanding the gospel (i.e. someone who is retarded)”. Everyone else knows I mean that, but… Read more »
They certainly are should have read They certainly aren’t.
When did it become ‘Christian’ for someone who disagrees with another person to attempt to discredit them by telling lies?
Wow.
And now on this comment stream, we have a ‘Bess’ and a ‘bess’.
So we are ‘twice-bessed’ 🙂
Tell ya what, I’ll answer that question if you’ll answer this one. Can a person who is able to think, reason, and understand (i.e. not retarded) go to heaven apart from repentance from sin and faith in Jesus Christ alone?
“Tell ya what, I’ll answer that question if you’ll answer this one. Can a person who is able to think, reason, and understand (i.e. not retarded) go to heaven apart from repentance from sin and faith in Jesus Christ alone?” Are you referring to ‘faith’ alone? Or Jesus Christ “alone”? The positioning of the word ‘alone’ is semantically important, Joe. As far as salvation by faith ‘alone’, I can answer for Catholics, Joe, this: As the Bible says, we are already saved (Rom. 8:24, Eph. 2:5–8), but we are also being saved (1 Cor. 1:18, 2 Cor. 2:15, Phil. 2:12),… Read more »
I meant faith alone in Christ alone. It is faith alone that saves but the faith that saves is not alone.
“I meant faith alone in Christ alone. It is faith alone that saves but the faith that saves is not alone.”
Joe, remember always these words from from Isaiah 55 before you go to sit in judgment on other people’s salvation:
“8 “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
neither are your ways my ways,”
declares the LORD.
9 “As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher
than your ways
and my thoughts
than your thoughts.”
L’s,
The question in #77?
L’s
Remember these words from John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
There is nothing in any way shape form or fashion in that passage you ripped out of context in Isaiah that suggests or implies even for an instant that God hasn’t been 100% crystal clear that salvation is only through Jesus Christ.
“Twice-bessed.” Love your humor, Christiane. I think you see what’s real and what’s not.
Thanks L’s!!!
Joe finally get his answer to his broken record constant comment.
I totally agree with you–and thanks for doing the detailed homework I don’t have time for.
Joe won’t change, I’m afraid. He loves to be the playground bully too much!!
Sad—so sad!
Christiane, I’m not sure where you received your degree in N.T. Greek, but it your interpretation of Romans 8:24 is not found in any Greek source I’m aware of.
Then again, I’m not really sure what you mean by the term “already saved,” but I suspect it is not substantiated by the indicative aorist in the passage.
Gene S.
You are a moron. That, by the way, is not my personal opinion but rather a professional observation.
Prayer for Joe:
Dear God—
Please make all bad people good—and all good people nice!
Joe,
I concur. Did you by any chance read Gene’s way of handling abusers and teens? I posted it in #137 of this thread? Read his comment in #135 first and you will see they hypocrisy.
Itell ya what somethng too
Speakin of retards as Joe Blackmon called em, the fellow who does CBS Sunday Morning chat had great commentary for how retards are abusing the Internets.
Made me think of some people. I hope I find a link soon.
Here it is right here. If it makes you think of anyone you know please name and testify
The Downside of the Internets:
http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?id=6795173n&tag=contentMain;contentBody
Joe & cb– I appreciate your attempt to “turn” my description of the situation at the rural church between a teen and middle-aged man. You try to make me into one ignoring abuse and failing to report it to authorities. Had the man been a sneaky snake using his maturity and position to seduce the teen, it would have been unquestionably a case for police investigation. HOWEVER, in this case, the girl was more than active in the process because she was craving his attention. Had I reported it, she had enough distortion in her life to make it appear… Read more »
Gene Scarborough,
You have no real concept of what you have done do you? That is just pitiful.
I’ll tell you what Gene. I have a lot of family and friends in NC. I am thankful you no longer serve as a pastor there.
Please continue to work among the trees and please never again take up the position as shepherd to a local church.
You allow the wolves to roam too freely.
Gene, statutory rape is statutory rape. What’s really sad is that if you know Christa’s story her abusers seemed to describe her just like the girl in Gene’s situation. So Gene thinks a teeanage girl can be just as guilty as the married adult? Where’s “Joseph” to give ol Gene an attaboy?
Bess,
I had wondered about the “Silence of Joseph” upon the revealing story “Gene and the Wolf” myself.
It is a rather strange silence one must admit.
CB, according to Gene’s reasoning Christa’s abuser would not be someone he wound want on a database.
Lot’s of curious things going on here. I’m just wondering how many people are connecting all the dots.
Bess: ARe you a real person or a composite.
If you are for real I got to commend you for a great phrase “wet Mess”. Hadn’t heard that colloquialism before but for sure if you are tellling the truth; your Grandmother must been a whammy.
Stephen, Bess is short for Elizabeth. Granny who was actually great granny was Mavis Elizabeth. She had very little formal education but a wisdom that seems to be increasingly lost to this world. As Granny would say “some folk ain’t got the sense God gave a turnip.”
Bess: I can not agree with your fundamentalism, but I have to admit I like the family names. Mavis just sets the whole thing off. My grandmother only had a 2nd grade education, but as her son Fremont and my Uncle Said, if she had gotten to Rome, Ga before the woman living in a two million dollar estate she drove passed everytime she went to town from her small farm about five miles out; she woulda run the place. I think you should join me and CB Scott in reading Ron Rash. You’re gonna love him, talking about the… Read more »
L’s I’m a Christian which may be confusing to you since you’ve demonstrated time and again that you have no clue what that means. And L’s the jig is up on Christa Brown so calling me a liar isn’t exactly going to help her out. How sick is that? Some people think the Great Commission actually matters. But some people don’t care abou potential damage to the SBC and that’s where they reveal their true hearts. What these posts here at SBC voices prove is that in spite of the rantings of bitter emotionally disturbed women something is actually be… Read more »
I don’t think that telling lies to discredit Christa is behavior worthy of anyone who bears the name of ‘Christian’. Telling lies about Christa also reflects VERY poorly on any claim of support for the advancement of the Great Commission, which was given by Our Lord to his disciples and handed down through the centuries. You need to reconsider your ‘tactics’, if you want to maintain credibility, even among your own denomination, and I am sure of that. How strange it is that telling lies is now seen by some as acceptable ‘Christian’ behavior. Where does this come from? And… Read more »
I’m not lying and your calling me a liar doesn’t make it so.
“tactics” just makes laugh considering the ” tactics” of taking such a serious issue as this to bash the SBC.
L’s I just had this great idea on how we can solve this issue right here right now. Everybody can agree we want to make churches safer for the children. Where the big disagreements come is when people are recommending things that will actually hurt the SBC and prevent the SBC from performing it’s actual purpose of carrying out the Great Commission. So here’s what you do L’s you go to all your buddies who just wanna help children and not destroy the SBC to explain how a national database will in no way be able to be a tool… Read more »
L’s, I asked you this question last evening in the post on Orlando. You obviously missed it because it was a fair question. I will post it here in hope that you give it an honest answer. L’s, I am curious. Did you read through the comment thread on Tony’s child abuse post? If you did, I think you would be willing to agree that the comments give evidence that many of these guys are very concerned about child abuse in Baptist life and desire to see some constructive action take place to protect the children God has placed in… Read more »
L’s: I agree with Christa. You definitely can see who is real and who is not. I think they could learn a thing or two from you and hopefully not vice versa. That would include in prayer. It’s sad that they even attempt to use this to shut you up. You are just doing too good a job showing them what you see L’s. Keep up the good work friend. And contrary to what Bess thinks, I can read and so can Christa. When Bess begins to take both prayer and clergy sexual abuse seriously maybe we can listen to… Read more »
BTW CB and Joe,Bess: Considering you are more bullying the “Gospel” than giving it to her, I don’t think she owes you an answer ever. Like Tom you seem to want to take a rubber hose and beat it out of a person. Sorry fellas that isn’t the Great Commission and it’s certainly a good example of Propaganda, like Bill’s prayer was so at least you are keeping in line with the post. Although it is kind of scary to think there may be a female version of CB and Joe out there going by the name of Bess, I… Read more »
Debbie,
Since you are here, did you read through the comment thread on Tony’s child abuse post? If you did, I think you would be willing to agree that the comments give evidence that many of these guys are very concerned about child abuse in Baptist life and desire to see some constructive action take place to protect the children God has placed in our watch.
Tell me what you think in regard to reading about guys who know there is a problem and what to see something done.
I read it CB and was greatly encouraged by what I read.
Debbie,
I am glad to hear that. I too was encouraged. Maybe something constructive can happen in Baptist life that will help curb this terrible thing Andrew Vachss calls, “The Children of the Secret.”
I hope so CB. I think it’s the greatest gift we could give our children. It shows they are precious to us and matter.
A-Men
Gosh darn it you guys didn’t ask Debbie if it was ok to talk about sexual abuse in Baptist churches. Debbie get’s to decide who can discuss the issue because she’s the only one in all blogdom who truly understands Biblical Christianity and humilty for that matter. Anyone who thought the nutcase blogger reference were about Debbie should just ignore that too and they posts which say that Christw Brown says it’s her way are no way. Ignore that too cause that might insinuate those ladies are losing crediabilty to speak on this issue. Debbie Coughman herself has spoken and… Read more »
Bess–
I’m getting strange vibes in your comments.
Are you really a female–or Joe Blackmon’s fake female who has the same harsh attitudes toward any whom you oppose????
I would think any female would be more sensitive to the cause Christa Brown’s ministry tries to place foremost!!!
” The simply truth is that if Christa and others who are concerned would move to work with local associations and state conventions, impact could be made now. It just seems to me that she and others with her would rather rail from the outside for years than be a part of a solution now.”
Exactly! Christa Brown not her champions have any interest in helping children. This is pure hatred of all things SBC.
Another post down the tubes. Or perhaps I should pray:
“lord I pray that just once a blog topic at SBC Voices produces a lively but productive comment stream that stays on topic and produces the fruit of, if not agreement, at least understanding and mutual respect. I pray that the people who usually cannot resist the temptation to turn the discussion to their own pet topics will receive your strength to resist, knowing that all things are possible with you. amen…”
How’s that for propaganda? 😉
BY posting this are you turning this to your own pet topic. 🙂
True. My own pet topic is staying on topic. But I did kinda turn it towards the topic at hand.
Besides, we all know propaganda prayers are never directed at ourselves.
Hey, how bout those Yankees 🙂
cb scott:
You said:”I think that many guys here and elsewhere see the problem as very serious, but do not really want to make any substantial contributions on any of the nutcase blogs. In my case, at least, when I do visit the nutcase blogs, I end up having to defend someone who I know has been falsely accused of harboring criminals.”
When you use the words nutcase blogs how does that help the discussion? We need discussion not flaming rhetoric such as what you said by using the word nutcase.
Tom Parker, the gig is up. We all know it is you.
Tommy is undercover now! Special Police 🙂
Jeff T,
LOL. He just ain’t good at it is he? If we were mobsters, we “would done shot ’em” by now!! 🙂 🙂
Bill Mac, I realize you are right. And frankly, I am maybe as tired as you of CR fights, believe it or not. At the same time, the subject of child abuse in Baptist life is a real problem, a glaring shame and a damnable sin. Yet, about the only Baptist blogs that speak to it are nutcase blogs, private agenda blogs and narcissistic antagonistic blogs. SBC Voices is one of the few blogs wherein the owners make an effort to be objective and fair. The owners seem to be bright guys. Surely one of them or all of them… Read more »
Christiane:
There is also the matter that there sits today, in prison, a particular child abuser, because our pastor called the police. So at least one pastor walks what a whole lot of people are talking.
My last on the topic, too.
LTB–Long Time Baptist:
CB Scott and Jeff T. Thanks for the warm welcome to this blog.
You are welcome Tom.
Goodnight Grandpa, Goodnight John Boy, Goodnight Jim Bob, Goodnight Jason, Goodnight Jenny, Goodnight Mama, Goodnight Mary Ellen, Goodnight Ben and……………………………..goodnight Tom parker.
For the child abuse question, see the new post.
Thank you. I don’t know you, but you seem to be a fair guy, maybe even a stand up guy. If you are ever in Birmingham, give me a call. Lunch is on me.
I’ll be down there this OCT for the LifeWay Kids Ministry conference. I’d love to hang out if we can work it out.
Deal. Here is my email: cbscott5512@gmail.com
Watch it, Tony. CB can be very charming in person!!
Thank You Huggy Bear Dave.
I do my best. 🙂
Tony, I agree that prayer should not be propoganda. However, in the case you cited you have made some faulty assumptions. First, what is being covered up and what is being exposed? Do you really think WikiLeaks is acting in the best interest of America? What about the troops and other officials they are putting at risk? Even the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff expressed concern over the unnecceary added danger our troops in the field may incur. WikiLeaks is causing unnecessary angst and you are as well by making unthinkable assumptions. How did make a rational connection… Read more »
@Gene: Thanks for your interaction. I appreciate your point of view.
I’ve likely made many assumptions and you may well be right about WikiLeaks. I don’t know.
For now I’m really divided on the issue. On one hand I think stealing government documents is very bad. On the other hand I think our government (and the other governments featured on that website) should be playing cover up.
With the other scandals I mentioned, I was thinking about why politicians hide the truth.
Sad to say: We live in a world of distortion where ratings are more important than truth.
Many of our fast growing talking heads consider, first, how controversy always draws attention while level headed “truth seeking” too often bores an American public becoming more and more bored with truth and honesty!
My brother, I agree that prayer should not be politicized…but if you can’t see the evil and motivation behind the WikiLeaks and understand their agenda…well, you’re a bit on the naive side. Blessings!
I would hope I’m 100% on the side of the naive.
Uhhhh… gee whiz… wow… I’m just amazed at some of the things you guys say about me, and you haven’t a clue. To those who think I’ve never made efforts to contact local associational or state convention leaders, you’re wrong. I made extensive efforts, both private and public, on multiple fronts. More specifically, I’ve also blogged rather endlessly about the Baptist General Convention of Texas. I’ve had letters and emails from and to them, and I’ve met with some of them in person (at my own expense in flying to Dallas). I’ve never said “national or nothing.” Given my public… Read more »
Christa, I’ve followed some (not all the posts) in regard to your suggestions, and I don’t think all the “deafness” is on the side of your detractors. My personal opinion is: you are trying to force your strategy from a top/down approach. My opinion is that will never work. If I understand you correctly (and I may not) you want a “policy” implemented. In my opinion, you are wasting your time if that is indeed your view. I do agree that greater awareness and implementation of protective policies is needed, but I don’t think your approach is helpful. That is… Read more »
SSBN says: “I do agree that greater awareness… is needed.” Me too, SSBN, and that’s a significant part of why I do what I do. Not that long back, the SBC’s top-dog on ethics, Richard Land, was telling the world that, unlike Catholics, Southern Baptists had only “a couple” cases before they “really focused on this” and got a handle on it. And as recently as 2007, SBC president Frank Page was repeatedly making public comments that Southern Baptists had had only “several” cases. And then, of course, there was the rather ridiculous remark by paid SBC spokesperson Will Hall… Read more »
QUOTE your own highest leaders END QUOTE Well, I guess that sort of ends any kind of productive conversation. Your statement proves to me the truth of what I posted on another blog — you have an “ulterior motive.” You have a deep-seated bitterness that makes you couch all your ideas in an “us versus them” world-view. Just for the record: you do not determine for me who is, or is not, “my highest leaders.” I’m about as “anti-establishment” as they come. I still smell of the 60’s and early 70’s. I refuse to be painted with your broad brush,… Read more »
Sometimes I can’t help but wonder if an appearance on Larry King Live is the desired outcome of some folks rather than to really address the problem of child abuse.
Well … okay SSBN … so maybe they aren’t “your” leaders in a personal sense … fine. But they’re still Southern Baptist leaders. I think that’s how most ordinary people would characterize them. And you might note that, in the next posting (“Does the SBC protect and enable”), Tony Kummer begins by suggesting the possibility that the 2007 SBC Resolution “only came about after critics went after our denomination. It raised awareness … ” So I stand by what I said … I think these efforts have been functional for helping to raise awareness. But of course, much more than… Read more »
Only Christa Brown deserves any credit for any discussions that are occurring. nothing else going on in the world could possibley have led to these types of discussions at churches, associations, and state coventions. Please ever stand and applaud while Christa takes all the credit and glory for herself. If only she could get that national database maybe Larry King would call.
CB, I think you are “spot on.” I’m convinced that Brown’s crusade has more to do with her, than helping anyone else. As you notice, she never responds to any disagreement someone has with something she says or proposes. She just attacks. She is definitely sufferng from “victim’s syndrome” which clouds everything she says. She also resolutely refuses to acknowledge that nobody speaks for an SBC church put a member of a particular SBC church. The fact that she perpetuates that particular myth and uses circular reasoning to support her attack with her myth, tells me what the real agenda… Read more »
PS — Do you notice that even when she admits she “might” be mistaken, she never apologizes. She just repeats her mantra.
This makes it impossible to carry on any meaningful conversation with her and people like her.
Yet, if someone would say (as they have) that she is just parroting the words of her “leader” (a disgruntled former trustee), she would be deeply offended. Yet, I have never referenced anyone as speaking for me, and she lumps me in with the likes of “you guys.” Now, that deeply offends me 🙂
Some have referred to the “cult of personality”. A lot of pride involved here.
SSBN: I didn’t say I might be mistaken and I don’t owe you any apology. What I said was that I think most ordinary people would reasonably characterize Frank Page, Richard Land, and Will Hall as being Southern Baptist leaders. But if you don’t want to personally acknowledge them as leaders, as your leaders, as SBC leaders, or as any kind of leaders at all, then that’s your call. But it doesn’t mean that I was mistaken in referring to them on an SBC Voices blog as being “your leaders” — i.e., as leaders of people who are connected to… Read more »
SSBN – priesthood of the believer is a difficult concept for some.
Gentlemen–
I am ashamed of the way you are treating Christa!
She has the courage of her convictions based on her own terrible abuse at the hands of a minister.
Anyone who would try to put a lid on her efforts is denying the facts: We have a problem with abusive ordained ministers taking advantage of their position and blaming the females–as if it were all their fault—NOT!!!!
Blessing on you, Christa! It is hard to soar with eagles when you are forced to deal with turkeys!!!!!
Gene you’re funny! Where has anyone anwhere denied that there is a problem with sexual abuse in churches or society in general for that matter? And we are all waiting with bated breath for Christa to explain how a national database could in no way no how be used to damage the SBC thus taking away Great Commission resources. Or she can admit she doesn’t care if the SBC can be damage and thus damage the SBC’s purpose of carrying out the Great Commission. And I’m sure anytime now Christa the penultimate expert is going to give us the links… Read more »
Bess,
You must be evil to the core. You have brought shame to the heart of a Cretan.
We do try CB. We do try. Meanwhile we wait for answers to unaswered questions.
“Where has anyone anwhere denied that there is a problem with sexual abuse in churches or society in general for that matter?” You gotta be kidding me!!! Christa, herself, was abused / reported it / became the target / never got action from her church! Again, she brought it to the attention of the SBC years ago and got the excuse: “We have no authority over a local church, therefore we can do nothing about it!” The is not only denial, but an official rebuff and refusal to act! Question: If the SBC can kick out Broadway Baptist Church in… Read more »
Gene, I read one of your accounts of how you handled a well known man in your church related to his sexual involvement with a girl in your church who was about the same age as was Christa when she was abused. According to your own testimony relating to the way you treated that sixteen year old girl in your church upon the revelation as to what happened, it is sheer hypocrisy on your part here to chastise anyone about how Christa’s church treated her. You told the story on one of Debbie’s post and unless she has erased or… Read more »
Debbie, Christa (Joseph), L’s and others, Read this story told by your hero Gene Scarborough. He tells you here how to handle sexual abuse in the church. The truth is that Gene and guys like him in ministry are a major part of the problem we face and why it is so hard to get anything done. Read this story written by a pastor who really knows how to handle abuse in the church. Gene Scarborough at his pastoral best. He states he had a “steady nerve” and a “biblical basis” for ministry here: “As a Pastor I seemed to… Read more »
cb—
I fail to understand any of your diatribe!!!
What is the real problem with a biblical handling of a serious moral situation?
The outcome was reconciliation and a church not splitting into a 100 pieces never to be restored.
Why don’t you tell me what you would have done in your omnicient ministerial abilities???
Sometimes these prayers are not propaganda. Sometimes they are apparently answered as asked. There are two stories in the history of revivals and evangelism to this effect, one concerns Evangelist Mordecai Fowler Ham (under whom Billy Graham was converted) who prayed for God to kill a group that was doing its best to sabotage a revival he was preaching in a church in Missouri. The whole group was taken away in a matter of a few days and the revival lasted some time. The same kind of story happened with reference to the Evangelist Rolfe Barnard in a little oil… Read more »
Christa Brown deserves more courtesy and respect than she is getting here. Disagree with her ideas all you want. But that isn’t what is happening. We’ve had a productive conversation regarding abuse in the SBC. As I said, you may not agree with her conclusions or her ideas, but I personally don’t have much doubt that without her, we wouldn’t have had the conversation at all.
One question: Why are we not discussing this under the right post?
Jeff T,
I think maybe it is because the subjects of both posts are so closely related.
Christa gets the respect and courtesy she has shown others. Bow down and worship all you want some of us have been dealing with this issue before Wade Burleson ever elevated her to saint status. And we’re still waiting for answers to those nasty little questions and the links to all those fabulos resorces she has available for churches.
Bess,
Do I know you?
CB, no I don’t believe so. I’ve “lurked” for quite a while on these blogs and this issue has compelled me to come out of lurking. I’ve seen Christa and her followers play this game before. Bill Mac should see some of the blogs where she’s attacked and demonized those who disagree with her National Database witch hunt idea and then how fast she turns around and pulls her victim card.
Bess, You hit the nail on the head. Christa, doesn’t want cooperation, she wants it her way. I commend her for some of the things she is doing, but she gets rather aggressive if we disagree. If Christa, can come up with good ways to tackle this problem, I would be the first to get in line. I would like to recommend her to come to our associational meeting, but I am afraid of how she might react if someone disagrees with her.
Jeff T. I’m waiting for her to post links telling what resources are available right now. She may be feverishly typing it as we speak cause it sure ain’t anywhere on website right now. Christa Brown sings one song with one note – national database or nothing and to heck with any consequences to the SBC. No Christa the poor dear is not known to play nicely when anyone disagrees.
Bill, you are simply wrong. Though this conversation is new to you, it has been the subject of many a discussion long before a disgraced, untrustworthy trustee decided to highlight a person with a hidden agenda.
Sorry to disagree, but your statement is simply wrong.
SSBN: See my response to CB. I was talking specifically about the SBC Voices post. Debbie and Christiane had been inserting off topic comments in a number of streams, and finally someone requested a SBC Voices topic on sex abuse in the SBC. It was directly in response to the accusations that the SBC coddles and protects sex abusers.
Bill, I’m aware of that post, but that doesn’t change the fact that a couple seem to think this is something new. It isn’t.
Bill Mac,
That is not the case. The 2007 action was not due to Christa Brown, but in spite of Christa Brown.
Well, I was talking about our recent SBC Voices conversation. Love her or hate her, she’s making a lot of noise, and I’m saying it is unlikely this blog would have turned to that topic without that noise.
Bill Mac, If you will remember, I asked Dave Miller to write a post. he did not. Tony Kummer did. Bill Mac, I have engaged Debbie and others in reference to this issue for a long time now. Every time, without exception, the true subject matter of the post and comment thread was or became the bashing of some or several SBC pastors or entity heads. The post and comment thread by Tony Kummer has been the best yet in Blogtown. One reason it was good was that for the most part the subject of what to do about child… Read more »
I hope it was because of Christa Brown. She has the facts and she is the one who did all the leg work. Whatever the reason doesn’t really matter as long as it is discussed and not just discussed but something done about it. What Christa has brought out in facts and the mentioning of names is important. The reaction given to her, who is also a victim of sexual clergy abuse has been reprehensible and Southern Baptists should be ashamed. It is always called bashing when the truth and names are brought out. The fact is that the SBC… Read more »
Truth? Not always, but you did not care for or refused to hear the truth.
Bashing? Most assuredly if the right SBC person was the target.
Level of accomplishment for your efforts? Always attention for you. Nothing to help abused children.
Bess,
OK, but I am sure you have been around and inside the SBC for a while, right?
I was on the cradle roll CB. My family always sits on the piano side of the church. There are a couple churches in my town which aunts and uncles helped start as missions. I know a thing or two about the SBC.
And that is supposed to mean something Bess? Hardly. To say that a national data base would harm the SBC is a irresponsibly ignorant statement that is absolutely false. I would think we would want to do everything in our power to make sure our kids are safe.
“Bow down and worship all you want some of us have been dealing with this issue before Wade Burleson ever elevated her to saint status. ” Yeah, this is the kind of response I was looking for. Call for respect and get accused of worship. I should have known better but it was worth a try. I might point out that as far as I know, you have said nothing productive since I have seen you posting here. You know how to rouse the amen corner but that’s about it. If your mission is follow Christa Brown around the blogosphere… Read more »
Bill Mac you don’t like my bow down and worship comment but what does your amen corner imply about those agreeing with me? What you don’t seem to perceive here is that part of the problem with this issue is that Christa Brown and co. Have become part of the problem. The first thing that has to be done in these discussions is to point out the myth that nobody anywhere in the SBC cares about sexual abuse and that only Christa can save us with her national database. Then you have to explain why a national database is actually… Read more »
Bess that is just a bunch of bologna. Where is your proof that it would damage the SBC. Christa has given statistics, victims of sexual abuse have commented on my blog and have emailed Christa. she has received so many emails that she can’t answer them all. As for CB talking about this before Christa. I know that he and I began talking about it during the Darrel Gilyard fiasco, and Christa was writing about it even then, so I would say Christa is dong a very good job. She is an expert and worth listening to. What makes me… Read more »
What makes me so angry about this Debbie is that you have hijacked an issue that you nothing but blog about when othersare actually out in the real world doing something about it. The only way this concerns you is your clear hatred of all things SBC and you are hanging on to the very thing the SBC is not going to do. You hang Debbie not to be of any but because it’s a way you can continue your vitriol and attacks against the SBC. Let’s see how many lawyers have tried to explain it to you in simple… Read more »
“And for the record Bill you didn’t look very hard if you think I’ve contributed nothing” You are correct. I shouldn’t have said that, and I apologize. But this conversation is degenerating rapidly, which is a shame because it started well, and went well for a long time, a much longer time than has been typical for this blog. In the short time you’ve been posting, you do seem to be the anti-Christa, so take that as constructive criticism for what it may be worth. Debbie and Christiane: What are your other ideas besides a national database? This post isn’t… Read more »
Bill Mac, thank you for your apology. I know that I have not handled this well, but perhaps if not forgiveness can be given then at least understanding. A national database is a dead issue for the SBC. It is not going to happen. If you happen know any of the lawyers or the judges if the SBC you might understand why. The fact that a database isn’t going to happen doesn’t mean that the 44,000 churches are all full of evil men and nothing is being done. There are a lot of resources and there is a lot of… Read more »
Bess, You speak with even more bitterness than the self righteous men commenting on this blog. Unlike the all knowing men commenting on the subject of Baptist clergy sexual abuse, I don’t know their hearts or yours. I do hear your words which spring from your heart. It seems the SBC and the Great Commission have become your idols. They seem to be more important than dealing with so called “men of God” who sexually abuse the innocent, the vulnerable, the weak and the wounded. Why would you wait with baited breath for Christa Brown to say that whatever efforts… Read more »
????? “thank you, Gene.”??? Gene???? Why and how could anyone thank Gene?????
Where do you guys come from???? What Galactic Star Ship brought you here?
Joseph thank you for proving many of the points I’ve made here to be true.
QUOTE Do you REALLY believe the Creator of the Universe needs the SBC END QUOTE Not to confuse you with facts, but the point of this thread is “using the SBC to fight child abuse.” It appears you might have missed that point in your eagerness to jump on the SBC-haters wagon. I do, however, agree with you in principle: God does not need the SBC. But, then again, following that logic, he certainly does not need you. So, what then is the purpose of your blathering? Attack a person’s propositions if you will — that’s the purpose of blogging.… Read more »
Debbie, How is Christa an expert? For that matter, have you, Debbie Kaufman, ever worked with abused children in any ongoing manner? How many abused children have you served in their behalf as an advocate in court Debbie? How many have you interviewed? How many have you taken into your home? How much of your own money have you spent for the protection of an abused child? How much of your own money have you spent on lawyers for abused children? How many times have you gone into an abusive situation and removed a child from harms way? How many… Read more »
CB: That shouldn’t even be a question. First she is a victim herself. That makes one an expert pretty darn fast. Secondly she has done all the research, legwork, using her skills as an attorney she has come up with some very startling facts. She has studied the statistics, talked to a host of other victims, she is an expert in this field. She knows what she is talking about, any one with any sense whatsoever should dialog with and listen to her. What “truth” have you tried to tell me CB? None that I know of. The facts are… Read more »
As far as my personal history, that CB is none of your business. I will say I do know what I am talking about. But as to how I know, that you will not find out ever.
Debbie,
I have already been introduced to your history. You connect the dots.
Debbie, I don’t think C.B. deserves any response from you at all.
I would just ignore him when he is having a tantrum.
Keep on using her L’s.
You use her until something better comes along. In that fashion you are a lot like MoKhan. But, remember this, the way you use her is also a form of abuse.
Debbie, Tell me what I have made myself that I am not? Your ignorance is Legion. Debbie, I asked you some questions about your involvement with abused children. I have asked you some of those questions before. You have never answered one question because you can give no affirmative answer to any of them and we both know it. You can’t give an answer, because you do not have one. You just blow smoke and make some people sick with it. Me included. BTW, being a victim does not make one an expert. It makes on a victim. But of… Read more »
CB: You are a bully, although a pretty poor one. I’m not intimidated at all. You, Joe, Bess, make one weary, but are hardly intimidating to me. More like make me weary. You talk a big talk, but really aren’t very big at all.
Well Debbie,
I am glad you are not intimidated. And you are right. I am not very big at all. You are also right in saying as a bully, I am a “pretty poor one.
Now, look around. Find one messed up kid. Help that kid. That will be a good start.
I didn’t realize the topic was “Who spoke up about clergy sexual abuse” first. Or “Who is the expert on child sexual abuse”. If it will cause ACTION to be taken that gets sexual predators out of the Baptist pulpits, I’m sure Debbie OR Christa will be glad to crown CB the hero or the winner. I’ll get a banner made! No matter how anyone has twisted this in their minds, those who have been sexually abused just want it to stop. We don’t want anymore lives altered by this horrible sin. We just want those who have no voice… Read more »
Joseph you sure must love Christa a whole lot. You “sound” just like her. What a coinkydink that Christa used the name Joe to tell the story of victim of the SBC over on her blog. And you know what’s even more weird? That story was an alot like Christa story. Weird huh? Christa Brown has a reputation for attacking those who don’t worship her as a victim and now she’s not here but along comes Joe using the same rhetoric as Christa. Well that Christa she does have her fans so of course she can call in the calvery… Read more »
No. I’m not Joseph. I’ve written a lot. I’ve been very public. I use my name. I use my full name. And I use my real name. That’s more than I can say for “Bess” … or is it “bess” … or is it “Randy” or is it “Dorothy”? There’s nothing weird about the fact that many Baptist clergy abuse survivors have similar stories. The patterns are similar — that’s the problem. They keep repeating themselves. I wish I had a dollar for everytime someone has read my book and written me to say something along the lines of “Your… Read more »
CB: I would be concerned even if this weren’t personal. It’s not hard to find a messed up kid or kid who is now adult, that’s how huge this problem is. Christa is overwhelmed with emails from victims. They found someone who understands and they are emailing her so fast she can’t handle all the emails. It’s not hard to find a messed up kid and thankfully Christa has been reaching out to them and helping them, which this National database would do more so, for a long time. The only way to help them is to prevent others from… Read more »
Debbie, I think this is the best and most reasonable comment you have ever made relating to the problem of child abuse in Baptist life. Look, I just do not know if a data base is possible in the SBC due to its inherent structure. I don’t know if it is possible to get Southern Baptist churches to cooperate in such a whole scale effort to make a database effective. In addition there are a number of inherent problems with the establishment of a database. None of which demonstrate a lack of care on the part of SBC leadership. There… Read more »
QUOTE while victims receive nothing from the churches END QUOTE You ask, “What’s wrong with that picture?” I’ll tell you: it is a flat-out lie. Debbie, why do you slam people you do not know with statements that are flat-out lies? I’ve been counselling and caring for victims for going on four decades now — long before you fashioned yourself as a self-made celebrity blogger. You, and people like you, are the reason progress is slow. I know first-hand what abuse does and I know first-hand how God protects those He loves. Please, get off your SBC-bashing soapbox on this… Read more »
What personal gain? I am certainly not getting rich off of this. I’m certainly not getting fame nor have I raised in stature in the church. I have no position in the SBC so what personal gain? It’s painful to read survivors stories. Read them and tell me it’s a lie. Start off with Tiffany Crofts blog who was threatened by those who would not wish her to write on her blog, even giving her an injunction to shut it down. Tell Tiffany Croft that it’s a lie. Tell those whose stories appear on STOPBaptistPredators that it is a lie.… Read more »
http://stopbaptistpredators.org/survivor_stories.html
Sorry, I messed up on the link. So here is the correct link.
Here is Tiffany Croft’s blog. Read it and there is a lot of reading. Darrell Gilyard was not arrested until last year. Long story short, he was in Southern Baptist pulpits preaching almost right up to the day of his arrest. He received counseling paid for in full by the SBC, Tiffany and his other victims did not. Tiffany paid a high price for writing this blog. A very high price. Tell Tiffany she is lying SSBN.
http://tiffanycroft.blogspot.com/
Louis the lawyer where are you? Debbie says your ignorant and have no idea what your talking about in regards to the legal ramifications of a national database. Me personally, I think Debbie is a student of Saul Alinsky – she thinks she can just continue making declarations contray to what lawyers say in regards to a national database and people will just start to believe it. Don’t even ask about the Great Commission and the purpose of the SBC.
SSBN: in reference to your comment below: ” Christiane, I’m not sure where you received your degree in N.T. Greek, but it your interpretation of Romans 8:24 is not found in any Greek source I’m aware of. Then again, I’m not really sure what you mean by the term “already saved,” but I suspect it is not substantiated by the indicative aorist in the passage.” If you are interested in an exploration of Romans 8:24 from my faith’s perspective, check out the encyclical letter: ‘Spe Salvi’ and read from the introduction, as far as you need to go. The reference… Read more »
SSBN, here is the Spe Salvi site for your reference:
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/encyclicals/documents/hf_ben-xvi_enc_20071130_spe-salvi_en.html
Christiane, I’ll check out your link and then comment.
Hey, Joe #81: Why don’t you just say what you mean instead of beating around the bush 🙂
SSBN,
I am trying to work on speaking my mind. I realize I’m a little too subtle.
Gene has offered an apologetic on how Mormons are real Christians and that the Islamic faith can save a person yet still professes to be a Christian. Therefore, I talk to him the way he deserves to be talked to. If you’ve ever read the graphic novel The Watchmen, Roarshach’s observation on the difference between criminals and dogs is applicable to Gene in my opinion.
Joe—
Let’s keep it simple: You are fulla bulla!!!!!
That which you cannot debate away, you distort away!!!!
On the topic of propaganda, just curious: we’re you driving your kids to a public school?
Strange, I thought this blog was about Prayer as propaganda, but it looks like the blog on sexual abusers has spilled over into this one.
Dr. Willingham…you know how it goes in blogging. Folks gotta go fishing from hole to hole when what they catch in one hole doesn’t satisfy their desires. Some folks set up holes for bass fishing and someone comes along trying to fish for those muck-swallowing catfish. Just the way of life. selahV