First of all, truth time. I’m a Tim Tebow fan. I have to confess my shame. For his senior season at the College-that-shall-not-be-named, I actually found myself rooting for a team I’d have never thought I could root for. His testimony for Christ and his enthusiasm actually made me a fan of the Slytherin Gators for one season. I’ve been a Steelers’ fan since the Steel Curtain dominated the scrimmage line in the days of my youth. But when Tebow’s Broncos faced Pittsburgh in the playoffs, I was rooting for Tebow and rejoicing at his miraculous overtime victory.
And, also by way of admission, I’m not always a fan of Robert Jeffress’ tactics in the culture war. I agree with his viewpoints, as best I can tell, but I often disagree with his methods and his tactics. I don’t really want this post to be about those disagreements, I’m just pointing out my post is not intended as an apology for FBC, Dallas or its pastor.
When Tim Tebow cancelled his appointment to speak at FBC, Dallas’s service, I was upset. I even fired off a couple of tweets in my anger and frustration that I wish now that I could untweet. It seemed clear to me then what still seems clear to me now. Tebow yielded to the intense pressure of the secular press’ criticisms of FBC, Dallas. The early returns showed Christians largely felt as I did. There was a sense of betrayal and anger that prevailed. Another Christian celebrity had given in to the pull of popularity, public opinion, and cultural acceptance; softening his biblical convictions in the process. (The last sentence is meant as an observation of prevailing opinion as I read it, not a statement of fact.)
Then, the tide turned. Trevin Wax wrote an article rebuking the lack of grace that Christians were showing toward Tebow. I’m not sure his was the first, but it was the first I read. A full spate of tweets, FB statuses and blogposts followed that chastised us for our graceless, cruel responses. That old standard, “The Christian army is the only one that shoots its wounded,” began to pop up. And they certainly had a point. I read those calls to grace and I felt chagrined at some of my original pronouncements. I was harsh and judgmental.
Since then, the general tone of Christian social media has been to gather around him in support. And, certainly, we ought to do that. He is a brother in Christ who had a tough decision to make and whether any of us liked that choice, he is still our brother in Christ.
But, I have to admit something. I appreciate the clarion call of grace – it is needed. But there is something about this whole thing that still sticks in my craw. I want to avoid the kind of public chastisement of Tim Tebow that many, myself included, engaged in early on. I do not know the pressures that were put on him or the thought-process he went through in reaching his decision.
But Tim is a public figure and has professed Christ with boldness. He is possibly second only to Billy Graham as the most well-known Christian in America. He has not shied away from being a public figure or a vocal Christian. Because of that, his opinions hold weight and his actions carry a symbolism. So, yes, we need to demonstrate kindness to him. We need to support him, love him, affirm him.
But I still think he made a bad decision. He agreed to speak at FBC, Dallas, and then when the intense pressure from a hostile, anti-Christian, mainstream media came down on him, he withdrew from the engagement. Whatever his reasoning, whatever his thought process, the secular media and the public seemed to have drawn some conclusions from this event:
1) There is something shameful and extreme about FBC, Dallas. They are, according to reports, “anti-gay and antisemitic.” Well, by that standard, every Bible-believing, Gospel-proclaiming church in America has to plead guilty to the labels of anti-gay and antisemitic. We believe that homosexual behavior is sinful and we believe that “salvation is found in no one else,” that “there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” No one is saved without repenting of their sins and placing their faith in Jesus Christ, regardless of their race, nationality or religious origin. Jews need Jesus. Muslims need Jesus. Hindus need Jesus. Religious American “Christians” need Jesus. We all need him.
It seems to me that FBC, Dallas, and its pastor were smeared throughout this. Nothing new there. However, Tebow’s actions tacitly fed that perception.
2) Bullying and intimidation by the liberal media are effective. There was a hue and cry raised – unfair as it was. And those who worked to paint our sister Baptist church in the worst possible light got their way. They won. Tebow cancelled. Tebows actions gave credibility to the bullying tactics of the press, who crowed over their success.
I think Tim Tebow lost a wonderful chance. All he had to say was something like this:
I will go anywhere I am asked, if I am able, to preach the good news of Jesus Christ. My commitment is to Christ and the gospel, and I will go wherever invited to tell people about Him!
I do not want to join in the Tebow bashing any more. Usually, I try to hold off and only write things after I’ve cooled down. I usually regret (as I do this time) when I fire off angry tweets or speak without thinking. That was wrong.
But I am not ready even now to join the “no big deal” chorus. Showing grace does not mean that we cannot challenge actions. Christians in the public square need to realize that their actions are scrutinized in the media and among the populace. And if we hide our light or even inadvertently give credence to the idea that biblical Christians are dangerous extremists who need to be excluded, ostracized or quarantined, we do damage to the cause.
The time is soon coming when every Christian in America is going to have to choose – will we please God and follow scripture or will we please people and follow the world? In America, we’ve been able to avoid the kinds of choices the early Christians and millions of Christians throughout history and around the world today have had to make. Now, we are going to have to endure the reproach of the world to stand for Christ. Actors, politicians, athletes and other Christian celebrities are going to have to choose a side. As the media intentionally paints all Bible-believing Christians as first cousins to the Westboro cult, we will no longer be able to keep a toe in both worlds.
So, I want to join in the chorus that says, “Tim Tebow, our brother in Christ, we love you.” But I cannot join in giving him a complete pass for this decision, as if it did not matter. I do not agree. This is a big deal. Whatever was in Tim’s mind or heart, I do not know. But his actions left an unfortunate impression that has not helped our cause in this world.
Sometimes, when I hit “publish,” I cringe a little knowing that people are going to be angry. I’m such a lovable fuzzball that it grieves me. I’m disagreeing with several friends for whom I have great respect, But I guess that’s the nature of blogging.
Anyway, the Devil made me do it, so it’s not my fault.
Dave,
I was at the Ligonier conference last week listening to Steve Lawson read about a sports writer (will go unnamed) who absolutely slammed Tebow. Lawson stood up for both FBCD and Tebow as the subject of the conference was “No Compromise, No Surrender”. This present crisis seemed to be a wonderful picture analogy of the pending persecution of the church.
Lawson commented that, while nobody is perfect, FCBD was being slammed for things every speaker at that conference agreed upon as Biblical truth. I was excited and encouraged to hear Lawson rattle off the truths of the gospel that could not be compromised. And I agreed with Lawson that Tebow was becoming a lightening rod for the entire Evangelical church. And that every accusation hurled at him was hurled against American Christians everywhere. At the end of the message I found out Tebow had chosen not to speak. It was like everything Lawson had taught have been handed a nice slap to the face.
And it is for this that Tebow’s decision makes me sad. Public opinion and media PR seem to have trumped standing up for the truth of Scripture. I don’t hold him responsible or decry him as a bad person. He made a mistake and will be forgiven for it. It just makes me sad that our popular “Christian heros” can’t follow through on defending the Scriptures.
I recognize the true heros are in pulpits and pews throughout America. And THEY were all faithful to the Word of God on Sunday morning but still I had higher hopes for Tebow.
Just my two cents and personal experience.
Good points.
As a fellow Steelers/Penguins fan, I am not sure I can forgive him for using his only Playoff win on us. And I might need to call you to task on THAT topic! 😉
When you identify yourself as a hockey fan, it kind of negates any other valid point you might have made!
Tim has the right to speak or not speak, as he chooses. The biggest grief for me: he promised to speak there and then broke that promise.
I agree. Had Tebow not agreed to speak, I’d have had no problem. But he agreed to speak and then changed after a campaign of bullying and intimidation by the press.
Yes, the media plays a significant role in situations like this. But I don’t think it’s about who can out-shout who. We need to build genuine credibilty, and the old way of being vocal has proven ineffective. With the death of Fallwell we’re seeing a softening, not necessarily in the area of belief, but in how we interact with the public culture.
And, Jon, I think such softening is a good thing, as long as it is not accompanied by compromise. Fine line there.
Indeed. Some people feel that if they cease to be vocal in the old way they cease to be prophetic, but the church’s crediblity rests on more than that. N. T. Wright has expressed that society listens to the church when the church lives out its vocation to the world around it, and much of that vocation has to do with service. When people see the church’s actions they become interested in what we believe. That seems to be the kind of dynamic at work in the Roman days. Service of the diaconal sort drew people’s attention, in addition to other exceptionally human and compassionate acts.
My favorite Dave Miller quote of the year: “I’ve been a Steelers fan since the Steel Curtian dominated the scrimmage line in the days of my youth”
You didn’t even drop in to say hi today.
Dave,
You start out by noting that you are not a Jeffress fan, perhaps for the same reason that Al Mohler described Jeffress as “incendiary” in his Christianity Today column.
However, you don’t explore that any further. Same for Mohler. From my perspective, it sure seems that Robert Jeffress is a rather key player in this controversy and the reason for this controversy but his role is being downplayed by folks such as yourself and Mohler.
Tim Tebow speaks regularly to conservative evangelical churches and organizations, “orthodox” by your standards. But when he does, there’s no national controversy, no media scrutiny.
Might the reason for this present controversy have something to do with the fact that FBC Dallas is different than those other theologically similar pro-life, anti-gay rights evangelical groups Tebow regularly frequents…..because their public face, Robert Jeffress, has a history of making “incendiary” statements?
I said what I said trying to avoid this post becoming about FBC, Dallas. But the ever-more-frequent bullying tactics of the national media which accept no deviance from the liberal orthodoxy seems to be the driving force here.
So why is Tebow left alone and not bullied when it comes to the many other conservative evangelical events that he has spoken at and is scheduled to speak at in the coming weeks?
That is where FBC Dallas and their reputation came to bear. An ignorant sports writer labelled FBC antisemitic and anti-gay and it took off from there. The public statements of Jeffress were the reason that this became such an issue. I don’t think anyone would question or deny that.
Well then, why not let Tebow off the hook. Perhaps we should take him at his word – that he wasn’t aware that Robert Jeffress was so controversial when he agreed. Perhaps Tebow just assumed that there was no harm, no foul in agreeing to speak at the First Baptist Church of Dallas, Texas. That’s actually a reasonable assumption.
Then, he learns more. And yea there is some pressure. So, he backs out.
Maybe he didn’t want to be associated with the provocateur Jeffress. It’s not like Tebow has canceled his many scheduled engagements at conservative churches. That important fact ought to matter, right?
Surely he has the right (and deserves to be able) to make such decisions and alter his schedule without getting the backlash from his “friends” that he’s received as of late.
Also, why do you seem to hold Tebow responsible for conclusions that the “secular media” has drawn from his cancellation. How is that even fair? Hasn’t Tebow sufficiently explained why he backed out?
Dave, Unlike you, I didn’t have too many generous thoughts about Tim. I was pretty angry that he folded.
But… after some time, and my own experiences of being in a family with a pretty well-known atheist, I saw another side. Has anyone considered that perhaps Tim, after being subjected to years of nonsensical harassment, was actually considering what might happen at FBC Dallas if he had shown up and spoken? Atheists are no longer happy to disagree. They want to hurt us. What did Dawkins say, something about humiliating believers? I’ve no doubt that these folks might have shown up at FBC Dallas and made a spectacle of themselves. It’s ‘in your face disagreement’ and it’s no longer conducted civilly. The atheist organizations now sue school districts over religious pictures. Why? Because they know most school districts can’t afford the fight and even if they do, only the kids suffer. It’s called winning by default.
In any case, Tim should have kept his word, that’s basic Christianity 101. I just don’t think it was cowardice that changed his mind.
Here is an example of this disagreement:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_FDl1XX7js&feature=player_embedded
We should get ourselves prepared for the conflict. It’s coming and just talking about the persecuted church will be a thing of the past. How we respond matters.
I agree with this post with my whole heart. There is a great need for Christian charity rather than kicking a brother while he’s down.
However, many people are equating “charity” with “compromise”. As Christians, we must be willing to follow through the principals of Matthew 18 no matter how difficult it becomes. This is increasingly hard to do in today’s digital and instant-paced world. But I believe that a public figure such as Tebow should be allowed to hear from the majority of conservative Christians (who he claims to represent) that his actions have done more harm than good. If he becomes resentful and refuses to hear this critique then I believe that puts us at the final stage of Matthew 18, which John Piper would define as “holy ostracism”. I pray that this is not where it goes but that we would see Tebow take whatever steps he can to clarify his position and show his fellow believers that he is not simply seeking to please the media.
You seem to have many positive statements in your article on Tebow but followed constantly by the word “But”.
How would you look under your Tebow microscope today in your church?
With your experience and Tebow’s 25 years on this planet, who has made more positive impact for Christ?
When you were in collage did you start a foundation to help kids?
With your first paycheck after graduating collage did you start a foundation to open a hospital anywhere in the world?
Tim Tebow most likely has had a more positive impact in total for Christ than all the folks combined writing articles and commenting on blogs. But I guess that does not matter because he is not perfect in some folks eyes and needs to be put in his place. Tebow can handle all the Christian community throws at him. Just like he has handled the secular community trashing of his character.
The reason it is so easy to point to Tebow faults is the Evangelical Christian community has done such a poor job in standing up for biblical principles. If the so called Evangelical Christian community stood for the Word, Tebow would not have been a target for the secular media and there never would have been a Tebow story to be blogging about.
Matthew 7:1-2
Do you feel better now for having attacked me?
I am trying to find a balance here. I like Tebow, but I do not like his choice and its consequences.
If you want to talk, fine. I will ignore further such personal attacks.
I asked comparative questions. It was not a personal attack anymore than your posts on Tebow were intended to be a personal attack on him.
John K.,
Your questions are unfortunate.
One, you don’t know what Dave has done. Your comparative questions are accusatory.
Two, you also don’t know what Dave would have done if he had had the money or the platform that Tebow had.
Three, your questions are completely beside the point. Dave is talking about a specific action, not Tebow’s whole life. Why not actually engage on the subject of the post instead of just attacking?
John K,
Here is the fault with your comparisons. God hasn’t called Dave Miller to be Tim Tebow. Tim Tebow is repsonsible for being faithful to God in the platform that the Lord has given him. Dave Miller is responsible for being faithful to God in the platform that the Lord has given him.
You can’t dis’ on Dave b/c God hasn’t given him the platform that he has given Tebow.
It is clear that I worded my comment poorly because I did not communicate what I meant to. It was not my intent to judge or condemn Dave Miller. It was my intent to show that we all fall short from time to time of what we as Evangelical Christians are doing for the Glory of God and as such we should be careful in how we disparage one another.
It appears I set myself up as the poorest of examples of disparagement of a fellow believer in Christ in how I commented on this post and for that I am truly sorry to all the readers and to Dave Miller.
John K,
“It was my intent to show that we all fall short from time to time of what we as Evangelical Christians are doing for the Glory of God and as such we should be careful in how we disparage one another.”
Now this, I totally agree with.
A man shows strength in gentleness and humility. Coming from a top rated quarterback it shows the combination of steel and velvet as we all should display. There are repeat success stories in scripture, but none of them are exactly the same. Chick-fil-a made a statement and the people rallied for them and put the foe in their place. Tebow made a decision and we may need to show patience and support. There is a time for peace and a time for war. Tebow still has a good reputation for a perfect response in the future. He lives and plays this quote, “It ain’t over til it is over.” And sometimes you don’t have to show your hand early. Let’s give him a few years and see how God’s plan works out in his life.
Great post and comments, Dave and all fine saints above…and nice wrap-up, Bruce. With brother Tim under intense pagan pressure in NY, look what happened during the season when “anonymous” players attacked him personally – when he had literally done nothing. Then Merrill Hoge lied about him. Then we have Rex Ryan and Jets owner Woody using him to sell jerseys. I agree with Bruce – let’s be disappointed (yes), but let’s see the bigger picture and read what his pastor – Mac Brunton, who was @ FBC Dallas before Jeffress, says about Tebow. He has a long way to go and many to reach for Christ. I ain’t throwing him out with the bath-water.
Interesting to read comments here- another perspective. I’m still curious- as you are, as to why Tebow broke the engagement- is he planning on a future engagement- and just what or whom does he aligns himself with as an Evangelical.
http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-932791
Dave, thanks for a very balanced article.
I found this article on the Tebow controversy to be quite good as well.
http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/2013/02/26/what-someone-needs-to-say/
Well, I am glad you wrote this blog, David, cause as the saying goes, “U ain’t seen nuttin yet!” And I hope I am entirely wrong on that statement. When the news media takes on the FBC of Dallas and its pastor, it be tokens of worse yet to come. Eventually, the media will marginalize all believers in America, unless we have a visitation of the Spirit of God. We are, very likely, going to be subjected to persecution of the more extreme kind, if the things continue as they seem to be going. I pray not. I have no desire to endure such sufferings, knowing what I learned from the groups that have been persecuted through centuries. God grant us all grace for the trials of this hour.
I think we need to assign the whole thing to celebrities usurping the role of evangelists. It’s a bad idea and this situation demonstrates why. Tebow–not entirely unlike Johnny Manziel–is celebrated for being an unusual football talent. Because of that celebrity, he’s invited to speak at churches.
His life story is compelling especially the part where he wasn’t aborted and therefore could become good at football. So he’s a natural draw for social conservatives. Then in addition he’s an evangelical, evangelistic Christian who believes in sharing his faith in any forum that will have him. So he’s a natural draw for evangelistic evangelicals (no…this is not the place for discussing if non-evangelistic evangelicals exist…the short answer is that they do). The two things coupled with his sports ability has led many people like Dave to support him in part because he seems to have God’s thumbprint on his scale.
And once someone seems to have God’s thumbprint on his scale, the opportunity to disappoint by not adhering to the built-in narrative is practically unavoidable. We really shouldn’t do this to people. Only God should be on a pedestal and he very carefully forbids being stowed on a mantle in the form of a wooden or stone image because he isn’t just a narrative. No idols. None. Zero.
It is amazing to me that there is no mention of the 160 million dollar campus that FBC Dallas has built. That speaks more about what is wrong with the Church today than Tebow’s or Jeffress’ actions.
It is alarming that Jeffress would claim to know how the Holy Spirit is leading Tim Tebow that he won’t cancel his appearance “as long as he listens to the Holy Spirit and to God’s voice.” Maybe the Holy Spirit led him not to associate with Jeffress and all of his grandstanding and ungraceful rhetoric
Maybe, Tebow didnt do his homework like he should have beforehand on Jeffress’ previous actions that include:
1. In 2008, Jeffress said that if the Republicans nominated Romney that “God always judges a nation that has a ruler who introduces false gods into that national life” Fast forward to 2012, Jeffress says that failing to elect Romney would be “asking for God’s judgment on our country” So which one is it?
2. Jeffress saying that Islam promotes pedophilia. Saying that Muslims marry girls as young as 4 years old. When asked for any evidence, he said he “read references” to it in a few places but couldnt produce it.
I know that you didnt want this to be about Jeffress but you cant look into Tebow’s actions without at least admitting that part of Tebow’s decision making process may have had to do with learning more about Jeffress in combination with the media pressure.
On the surface, Tebow probably said yes to the invitation to speak at FBC Dallas without hesitation. If we take Tebow at his word, he said he was made aware of some issues. Now, should Tebow have looked into this before he agreed to speak? Yes, it was wrong for him to back out of the engagement.
Jeffress actions in the past should give anyone pause in associating with him. I would dare say that most Christians dont support his position that Islam promotes pedophilia. Most Christians wouldnt support spending 160 million dollars on building a new campus.
Jeffress has used this to do more grandstanding on TV and from his pulpit. He called out Tebow from his pulpit. Where does this man display grace?
I think Tebow was wrong for pulling out of a commitment but believe that he never should have made the commitment in the first place
My brother your inference that Islam does not promote pedophilia shows your inability or refusal to do a little research beyond the biased news media and social/political correctness of our day.
Let me give a personal experience so no one can say I’m speaking in generalities or from hear say: When I lived in an overseas Islamic community I witnessed a marriage performed between a man in his late 50s, who was a widower, to an 11 or 12 year old girl. (I was invited by the man’s son who served as my official interpreter and approved by the Imam officiating the wedding as we had had many discussions about Islam and Christianity.)
Let me now draw your attention to a simple 30 second look on the internet. I located this tidbit of information that I’m surprised is still there. Here’s the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aisha but to save time for everyone here is the opening Wikipedia paragraph: “Aisha bint Abu Bakr (612–678) (Arabic: ?????? transliteration: ???isha, [?a????æh], also transcribed as A’ishah, Aisyah, Ayesha, A’isha, Aishat, Aishah, or Aisha) was one ofMuhammad’s wives.[1] In Islamic writings, her name is thus often prefixed by the title “Mother of the Believers” (Arabic: ??? ???????? umm-al-mu’min?n), per the description ofMuhammad’s wives in the Quran.[2][3][4] Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad at the age of six and the marriage was consummated when she was nine years old.”
If this is not pedophilia my dictionary gives the wrong meaning and from my own personal experience I witnessed it still being practiced as late as 1980-81, however, as far as I know it is not being practiced in the US because our laws forbid it.
I don’t know Bro. Jeffress but I respect any one who stands immovable upon the truths of God’s word without regard to the political correctness of the day. I’ve witnessed too many pastors, and Christian leaders in the recent years who have bent to the pressure of political correctness that they will not even read aloud in their churches the Biblical injunction against homosexuality, adultery or other vices that are acceptable today because they don’t want to make anyone mad. I know organizations that will not allow Christian pastors to pray in the name of Jesus name because it might offend someone but allow Islamic clerics to pray in Allah’s name.
My understanding of God’s commission is that we are to proclaim the Good News of Jesus Christ which involves standing boldly and proclaiming categorically the sin nature of man, God’s impending judgment and His provision for man’s redemption because we love God and our fellow man too much to shut up.
Without personally knowing the man I would place Jeffress in the same mold as Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego who stood valiantly against Nebuchaadnezzar.
160,000,000 / 11,000 = 14545 per member which is less than 5,000 per year per member in a three year contribution plan on average. We’ll note that the churches resources include many downtown buildings and the total value of the pre-build facility was already in the 10s of millions of dollars if not in the low 100s.
That level of contribution is high but is hardly excessive. The problem you’re really complaining about is that large churches deal with large amounts of money. Yes. They do. You’re right. But “Christians” who are thoughtful don’t complain about a number just because it has lots of zeroes at the end.
Greg,
Except that is a whole lot of cash for a whole lot of bling that could go to more important matters. I imagine it will be much harder for the pastor to preach against materialism in a facility of that sort.
So you have personally reviewed their construction plan? Otherwise, your comment is garbage.
Just to support my comment, I’m linking a 2009 bizjournal article on the FBCD building plan. Here’s a relevant comment on the scope of the work and one on the reason for doing it right now.
SCOPE:
“Plans call for a new 3,000-seat worship center complete with state-of-the-art audio-visual technology, a fountain plaza with a highly visible cross at the center of a cascading fountain, a sixth-floor education building, two gymnasiums, an outdoor patio, green areas and a skywalk connecting the campus’ buildings.
Other facets of the project include a new parking garage with more than 500 additional spaces, a roof-top green area for outside concerts and events and a transparent glass-design that will illuminate the church’s various walkways and the historic First Baptist Church sanctuary. That worship area will remain standing and in full view of members walking inside the church as well as to downtown visitors who are driving past the campus.”
REASONING FOR COST AND TIMING:
“The deacons of the church and the planning and development committee unanimously voted for the project, Jeffress said.
During Sunday’s services, Jeffress highlighted the benefits of building a significant structure in a down economy. Pricing in the current economy is attractive, he indicated, with the church estimating that for every $1 spent it will be getting $1.30 in construction value.”
and
“But size and scope aren’t First Baptist’s only objectives.
“First Baptist’s building program is not an end in itself,” said Jeffress. “It is a means to an end — to better minister to and meet the needs of the community. First Baptist is firmly committed to spreading the message of God’s transforming love downtown.””
Specifically, the plan calls for rebuilding 2/3rds of a city block in addition to a separate building garage extension. The new campus will have 500,000 square feet of space and the published cost is $130 million or about $260 per square foot finished. As I said, that’s a little high but it includes protecting the existing sanctuary during construction and some amenities that make the campus a friendly place for the downtown community to visit. I’d note it replaces several older buildings that were somewhat haphazardly integrated together and retains some new construction as well as the historic sanctuary. Pretty good at a $260 per square foot buildout imho.
Greg,
I had seen those descriptions before, and I understand why it costs so much, but none of that sounds even a tad bit over the top to you – especially for a church?
Very often what the world calls “incendiary” and “inflammatory” and “controversial” is nothing more than plain truth with a confident voice. I always want to examine whose dictionary the critics are using when they start using their adjectives of outrage.
I know very little about Robert Jeffress. I know a little more about FBC Dallas. To blast FBC Dallas as a fringe, hatefilled church, betrays one of two facts and maybe both, 1.) Either a complete ignorance of main-stream Biblical preaching – which would be a poor excuse for journalistic homework; or 2.) An unashamed attack on the historical presence of Biblical preaching throughout this country and abroad.
I do have respect for the Tebow family, and give them the benefit of the doubt at this point. I do not know all the details, but in the worst case scenario, another young man once “bailed on Jesus” under pressure, only to rise to the office of Pope. (tongue in cheek). Tim has not yet gone to the point of cussing his way out of his association with Christ. I do think there is still room for the rooster to crow, repentance to happen, grace to come, brethren to strengthen and lambs to feed. (And that should not be taken to mean I think Tim is equivalent to the Apostle Peter)
In the best case scenario, we do not know all there is to know.
Furthermore, lesser known Christians have disappointed in lesser public ways than this . . . pastors minister to them all the time with grace, and truth, with no desire to put out their candle because of failure.
http://changeworthmaking.wordpress.com/2013/02/21/bleacher-report-tim-tebow-robert-jeffress-and-the-blindness-of-the-unconverted/
You say: ” When it comes to the issues of Islam, homosexuality, Mormonism, and Catholicism, pastor Jeffress has said nothing different from what every Bible preacher I know has been saying, is saying, and will continue to say.”
What other Bible preachers can you point to that preach that Islam promotes pedophilia or marrying of 4 year old girls?
How many other Bible preachers call Catholicism the “genius of satan”?
How many other Bible preachers first say that that nominating a Mormon would bring the judgement of God but then later say that if the same Mormon isnt elected, it will bring down the judgement of God?
You must be listening to different Bible preachers than I am. It defies logic to say that Jeffress’ rhetoric has not been inflammatory.
And where in the Bible can you find support for the MILLIONS of dollars being spent on the new FBC Dallas Campus. That is shameful in and of it self. AND I have heard many Bible preachers speak about money, power, and humility.
Tebow was wise not to speak at that church. Unwise to break a commitment.
From Jerry Vines’ Wikipedia article:
“Referencing Ergun and Emir Caner’s book Unveiling Islam, Vines said that “Allah is not Jehovah… Jehovah’s not going to turn you into a terrorist that’ll try to bomb people and take the lives of thousands and thousands of people,” and that “Christianity was founded by the virgin-born Jesus Christ” while “Islam was founded by Muhammad, a demon-possessed pedophile who had 12 wives, and his last one was a 9-year-old girl.””
There certainly are some points of qualification on Muhammed’s “marriage” to the 9-year-old girl ranging from the Eastern concept of betrothal to the meaning of consummating a marriage. But this is a direct copy and paste from the Aisha Wiki article:
“Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad at the age of six and the marriage was consummated when she was nine years old.”
The term “pedophile” is a euphemism which probably is derived from the mental health community. But consummating a marriage with a 9-year-old would be considered deviant behavior in all 50 states in the US of A.
Too funny. You quote the Caner brothers who are not known for their truthfulness. I think you are proving my point here on who we should choose to associate with.
And how old was Mary when she married Joseph? How old were girls in that period when they typically married? Consummating a marriage with a 13-16 yr old girl would also be considered deviant behavior in all 50 state of the US of A as well.
This is also coming from a church in the SBC that once used the Bible to support slavery within the South.
Shall we paint with a broad brush with inflammatory rhetoric as jeffress has done?
Sam,
I would speculate the wilderness tabernacle cost a pretty penny and what about Solomon’s temple – Wow!
This controversy is why I’m not a fan of the “modern Christian heroes” bandwagon.
We have no idea what truly lies in the hearts of these “heroes”. We really dont.
“but Lord, did we not score touchdowns in your name? Did we not speak at all your engagements?”
Greg,
Your defense of the indefensible is what is garbage in this all. Trying to justify the amount of money spent is just sad.
Instead of focusing on the obvious excesses of the project you focus on return of investment. Why the need for a cross in a waterfall? How much did that cost?
Two gyms?
a skywalk?
concert venue?
I am sorry you are missing why this kind of money should not be spent on the structure of a church.
One needs only to look at the Crystal Cathedral as to why….
All right, everyone, let’s put our eye back on the ball. This post is about Tim Tebow and the pressures of public Christians to conform to societal standards.
As of the posting of this comment, I will delete any more comments that focus on FBC, Dallas, Pastor Jeffress and their new building.
That is not what this is about.
Gentlemen, is it your impression that I was kidding?
I see you want your narrative to be the only one on this story.
I will respect your wishes and stop posting
Good day
Just stick to the topic. Blasting FBC, Dallas and its pastor was not the purpose of this post.
I let the conversation stray in that direction for a bit, but as it got more extreme, harsh and unkind, I thought it best to shut it down.
My apologies to you Bro. Miller,
I thought that last comment of mine to Sam was within the boundaries of societal pressures to conform, in reference to what was “outrageous” and what was not “outrageous.” (though i guess such subject was indirectly born from Jeffress and FBC Dallas)
my mistake – will bow out.
Not a problem. It was just that once I deleted once comment in the stream, I delete them all.
We’ve had our say about FBC, Dallas, but I didn’t want to go any farther with that.
Aand I notice this after my just-posted comment focusing on their spending, so for a change I defied in ignorance.
Jeff,
I would agree. Traditional Christian beliefs are controversial to the world we live in. They will always be.
However, we have a responsibility in the way that we communicate these beliefs to the world. Phelps of Westboro Baptist is preaching those same beliefs on homosexuality but it is the manner in which he is doing so which needs to be addressed. That is an extreme example I know, but he would espouse the same position on homosexuality as Jeffress does.
To paint Islam with such a broad brush is inflammatory and unnecessary and does nothing to build bridges or in roads with those we would seek to witness to. All it does is build more walls.
I agree, it is not outrageous to preach biblical truths but one does not need to do so in an outrageous manner.
I agree that we have a responsibility in the way we communicate truth.
I agree that the Westboro church in the way they communicate what is true is hateful and demeaning, an insult to Christ and loving and graceful Christians everywhere who attempt to bring the truthful message in love – and certainly one can argue that the way WBC goes about their demagoguery brings a certain level of skepticism as to their Christian bona fides.
I agree that painting with broad brushes on any topic be it Islam or homosexuality can lead to roadblocks irrespective of the fact that the Gospel itself is offensive.
I fail to see how Dr. Jeffress views on these topics raises to the level of a Westboro – that seems to me a smear from one who judges others broad brushes – it seems from this same smear (started by a journalist who probably has never listened to a sermon at FBC Dallas in context) is what lead Tim Tebow to cancel his appearance at FBC. The good people at FBC Dallas would have never allowed a hate-monger in their midst to be their Pastor – and would have removed such a person for cause if he appeared. So let us not only give Tim the benefit of our grace – let’s extend it to the good people in Dallas with their under-shepherd, who by the way is no Phelps, who has a hard job, and is only calling it as he sees it with more modicum of love than Phelps has EVER shown. You may not approve of his manner – but you liken him to Phelps? Really?
What exactly is “outrageous manner”? Here are a couple of scripture passages: Matthew 21:12 and 1 Corinthians 5. Each of these spectacles were committed in public – the second reference by a leader of a church done so in public. Now I suspect that no one currently is the Pastoral office in the U.S. would ever attempt in public what Paul did in a letter to the Corinthian church – it would be considered outrageous conduct. But would it be un-Scriptural NOT to do so? Certainly Jesus calling Herod of “fox” in public would be a bit outrageous. But a Christian leader today doing the same for a public political figure? Shucks the recriminations would sound off big time, especially for those who would like to paint with little brushes. 🙂 – Just saying bro…
Rob
I don’t know much about Jeffress except what has been printed since he inserted himself into the presidential race. From what I have seen I would say that I am not a fan. Plus I am not a fan at all of megachurches and this 130 M thing they are building kinda gets my ire up. But comparing Jeffress to Phelps is not good at all, even to say they fundamentally agree on homosexuality. Frankly I think evangelical Christianity is obsessed with homosexuality but that’s a topic for another day. But please don’t give Phelps any credit for being right about homosexuality but simply expressing it wrongly. That statement may apply to Jeffress, it does not apply to Phelps. I may disagree with Jeffress on some things, but I don’t doubt he is a Christian and his view that homosexual relations are sinful are right in line with orthodox Christianity.
Phelps, on the other hand, is an inhuman monster. He is not Baptist, he is not Christian.
Wow – in the main we agree – what in the world has come over you Bill?
Rob
I am feeling faint.
lol
May I ask a simple question?
Are we commenting on exactly why Tim Tebow chose not to go to FBD? Did he declare what made him change his mine. I read his comment and what we are saying compared to what he said seems to be a contradiction. He did not say he declined for any particular reason. Please tell me why he actually declined. All I have that he said is, “due to new information that has been brought to my attention”. What does that mean? Can we assume?
I guess I see your point, Sam: only if you’re a proclaimed hypercalvinist like Phelps should you be intentionally aggressive and inflammatory in proclaiming to the world that God is judging them for their sins. Primarily because you believe they CANNOT CHANGE their minds.
I place no blame on Tebow or the church. Just because Tim cancelled his speaking engagement will not make him less of a Christian or less saved.
Tim is a Christian football player. I think we Christians are trying to turn him into samething he is not. Tim may still be having milk with his meat.
There has been some harsh things said about Tim on this thread. I wonder who it is that actually needs to repent. None of us are perfect
only the Holy Spirit within us is perfect. I say go Tim, and keep up the good work.
I was once scheduled to hold a revival at a church and had to cancel
because my mother had cancer and only had about a week to live. I spent the remaining days with my mother instead of preaching the revival.
I tell you the things said about me was not good but I will not get into that here. My point is that although there are different reasons why Tebow and I cancelled our appointments the harshness and unloving
attitudes are the same. Let’s not be so hard on people that don’t meet our expectations. We may not be as strong in the faith as some.
On February 27, 2013 at 2:33 pm, Dave said stop it! On 2013/02/27 at 2:40 pm, not seeing Dave’s warning buried in the comments, I replied to Sam.
Sorry, Dave. I didn’t see the almighty command. 🙂
Admit it. You are a lawbreaker and a brute.
I’m a brute and a lawbreaker, on the other hand.
Gentlemen, Tim Tebow has been compared to Billy Graham (or at least the second most famous Christian in America). However, some perspective is needed. Tebow is not in ministry full time like most of you, and this is not meant to be a slam. As such he draws his livelihood and his platform from speaking based on being a public figure which is based on being in the NFL. Yet at the same time, he is one of a few players in the NFL (out of hundreds of players) who have name i.d. outside of their local markets. This group would include Aaron Rodgers, Drew Brees, the Manning brothers and Tom Brady and of this group Rodgers, Brees and Peyton Manning are professed born again Christians. All of these guys, with the exception of Brady, derive considerable income from doing product ads. In the case of Tebow, he earns a considerable amount of money from Nike and Jockey while at the same time, his future in the NFL is questionable.
What I am getting at if that it may turn out to be that it was mistake for Tebow to have chosen to become the public figure he is outside of the NFL namely because it puts pressure on him to have a positive image in the media and at the bottom of that is that the secular world needs to like him. When the secular world’s values conflict with his values as a follower of Christ and the spotlight is put on that conflict, Tim finds himself where he is in all of this controversy.
On the one hand he values the platform he has been given and he has used that platform effectively and passionately to express his Christian beliefs. However, making the cover of Gentleman’s Quarterly Magazine, and being the spokesman for Nike and Jockey are going beyond that platform and are serving to increase his income, not that there’s anything wrong with that. However, these sources of income, it appears to me, at least, are what are the source of his telling Dr. Jeffress that he has “personal and professional considerations” which are causing him to turn down their invitation.
Maybe, Tim thought that going beyond the NFL, like Aaron Rodgers, and the Manning brothers have done, would increase his platform for expressing his faith in Christ, but ironically, it may very well be that that decision is now causing him conflict with many in the Christian community. The point I am trying to make is that I think a lot of you think of Tim as a modern day Billy Graham, who just happens to play football and are not seeing Tim as the media and promotional personality that he also has become. I am not saying this to throw stones at Tebow, but to shed a little different light on his situation.
In the future, it appears that Tebow did not want to have to answer for any statement that Jeffress might make. In other words, it would be challenging to have dialogue with Muslims and Jews when the first comment they have heard is that they are going to Hell. It would be better if Jeffress had stated that those without Christ as their Lord and Savior which would also include a lot of folks who are neither Jew nor Muslim.
Reasonable comments.
I would point out that I was not comparing Tebow to Billy Graham, I was only pointing out that in the public arena, if you asked people to name a Christian, those two names are likely to come up most often.
And, for the record, that was conjecture; no scientific basis to back that up.
I don’t think there’s a difference between the basic content that Tebow believes and preaches, and what Robert Jeffress believes and preaches. Jeffress simply chooses a manner of presenting his views that is loud and confrontational, and that draws the same negative response that loud and confrontational voices on the other side of those issues does. It’s pretty clear that this is not some indication of the beginning of “widespread persecution” of Christianity, because there are a lot of Christian preachers, and even Christians on the right wing of politics, who do not draw the same kind of criticism. I disagree with Jeffress’ approach, though he should know that as a Baptist, he speaks for no other Baptists, including those in the church he pastors.
I can understand Tim Tebow not wanting to be associated with a presentation of the same message in a loud and confrontational manner. It seems his personality, and his celebrity status, are best suited to the approach he takes. Perhaps he agreed to the invitation to FBC Dallas too soon, and maybe he should have gone ahead and honored his original commitment to speak there, but that was his decision. One thing is clear. His presentation of the gospel and his message are effective. Jeffress gets a lot of negative press. How many other Baptist pastors, who take a different approach, get that much negative press?
Ultimately, most of this conversation is speculation. It happened. I don’t see that it is for anyone else to judge.
loud and confrontational manner
def–Used to describe conservatives when they in any way, shape, form or fashion proclaim that homosexuality is a sin.
Gets my vote for funniest comment in this thread! Good work Joe Blackmon!
IF only the prophets, even Jesus Himself, had just been less confrontational and loud….
I think we need to differentiate between what our interpretation of the Bible leads us to do and what God directly told the prophets to say.
Which does not mean we shouldn’t be direct and clear when the Bible is and it arguably is embarrassingly clear and this is the new NIV:
Romans 1:
“26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.”
The only way you can get around that passage is to exchange natural reading of the Bible for unnatural ones.
Paul assumed his listeners had a sense of ‘nature’ created by God. Without this revelation which we know from Genesis, I’m not sure that one could judge such behavior to be unnatural. Paul equally states that the knowledge of the unbeliever is suppressed.