In my current ministry, I do a lot of work with Discipleship, with Sunday School and Small Groups, and I look at a lot of curriculum. Some we do in house, much of it we purchase. In all my shopping for material, I tend to lean towards Lifeway, and I think it’s the best choice. Let me tell you why I use it and why I think you should too.
1. Lifeway takes time to understand what we are doing beyond the desire to sell us stuff. Lifeway does research, they are involved in education, mission, support and development. They take time to work with churches, be involved with churches and be in the field.
2. Lifeway understands Southern Baptists because it’s run by Southern Baptists, with Southern Baptists, around Southern Baptists and in partnership with Southern Baptists. It has the same doctrine, belief systems, structure and ideals that drive who we are. Ideals like Mission, Discipleship and cooperation.
3. They play well with others. Lifeway works with churches, associations, state conventions, NAMB, the IMB, and has reps at meetings, conventions, trainings and conferences. They embrace the spirit of cooperation that is what the SBC is all about.
4. They are not in it for the money. Lifeway is a non-profit, and they give and share much of the money brought it. They sell resources to pay for more resources, they give money to help state conventions, they donate and give much away. They are not a for-profit publishing house.
5. They have a plan. Let’s just look at Sunday School. They have a long term vision and scope, they have a developmentally sound approach that fits from babies to adults. They offer a variety of Sunday School options that best fit the needs of a church, but those options stay within the scope and sequence to build and make disciples. They are not just shooting from the hip.
6. Real people in real churches do much of the work. I have written for Lifeway. I know many others who have help to write and develop the material, folks in churches in ministries. It is not put together by a group of isolated academics who live in an ivory tower. They are in the field, writing from experience, with the help and support of some great editors and staff.
7. Finally, they are part of the family. If you had to buy a tractor, and your brother-in-law owns a tractor dealership, where would you go? Especially if the tractors are the same tractors for the same price. Lifeway supports us, they are part of the SBC family, so why on earth do we go to someone else and ignore those who exist to serve and support us?
There are your 7 reasons (seven is the number of completion, so that’s all you get) to support Lifeway. Perhaps they would have been better off to remain “The Sunday School Board of the Southern Baptist Convention” so we would remember who they are and support them like family.
I don’t use Lifeway much for one simple reason. I can purchase the same products they sell as a SBC pastor/church planter for at least 15% cheaper shipped to my door than I can driving to a store 30+ miles away or paying higher price and shipping from website. If their prices were competitive I would buy more at Lifeway, but I cannot afford to be a blind loyalist.
I’m talking about material produced by lifeway, not shopping the lifeway store.
I agree with you about that. The online store sells, of all things, material by heretic TD Jakes.
I was about to point out that I’ve seen T.D. Jakes’ material sold at my local Lifeway, which is heretical by SBC standards.
Thanks, Dan, I appreciate it.
We are glad to be serving churches and appreciate your kind words.
Ed
Lifeway not only agreed to sell but store managers DEMANDED to be able to sell The Shack.
Lifeway’s Sunday School material is fluff at best. They skip so many verses in their Explore the Bible series that claims to cover books of the Bible it’s laughable. The commentary runs all the way from wishy washy to biblically illiterate.
I disagree with their decision to sell The Shack – bad choice on their part.
But I don’t think that negates everything they do.
And we’ve had some teachers swear by Lifeway and some want to swear at it.
All in all, though, I appreciate Lifeway.
Joe, I have to say what I tell everyone who calls the material is “fluff”.
1. You don’t know how to use it. The open group material is not deep, if you have a deep class, it’s not Sunday school. That’s discipleship group and you shouldn’t be using Sunday material.
2. Curriculum is a tool, if you expect it to do everything for you, then that is lazy teaching.
Joe Blackmon,
You know I love you man and I believe you are one of the greatest blog fighters who ever lived, but Dan is right about the use of S.S. curriculum in the local church.
See, here’s my thing–someone teaching SS ought to study the Bible and teach it for themselves.
Joe,
Ask your pastor (and I am sure he is a good one or you would not attend the church he serves) if he uses any other books, materials such as internet helps, etc. to aid him in sermon development?
Of course, the Scripture is the primary resource and the only authoritative source he uses, but I bet you a copy of the current quarterly of the Herschel Hobbs Commentary against a rollin’ hole in a doughnut that he will tell you he uses many various aids and at times wishes he had more.
S.S. Curriculum is an aid to the development of biblical Sunday School lessons. it was designed as such in the beginning and continues to be to this day.
Well, when I said “study the bible” I didn’t mean “only the bible”. I would assume anyone doing serious Bible study is going to consult various commentaries, dictionaries, and other study tools.
Truthfully, I am probably too hard on Lifeway’s Sunday School stuff and am biased against them because they agreed to sell The Shack. I should probably check my prejudice at the door. C’est la vie.
Dan,
Do you have a C.E. degree?
Yes. It’s a MACE, Masters of Arts in Christian Education.
Dan,
I have read your posts and comments here and always thought you were highly informed and far better educated than the run of the mill M.Div., Th.M., D.Min. or Ph.D. seminary guys who frequent Baptist blogs.
Now I know why. 🙂
Thanks CB. That blesses me heart!
Dan
What I call lazy is purporting to cover the book of Romans in a quarter but skipping chunks of chapters to either (a) gloss over material you don’t want to cover because it’s too controversial or (b) neatly fit the material in a predetermined number of lessons.
Were I teaching a class, I’d just take the Bible, study it for myself, and teach that. I can’t think of anything Lifeway sells that would constitute “Biblical solutions for life”. Perhaps “Supporting Biblical illiiteracy for life”
I taught adult SS for many years. I dropped the SBC material (it wasn’t lifeway back then) because they did this very thing all the time. They skipped anything that there might be more than one interpretation about. Anything hard or controversial, just flat out skipped. It drove me crazy. I’m sorry to hear that it is still going on. If you are going to cover a book, cover all the verses in the book.
That type of study is for Closed Group Discipleship groups, not Sunday School. If you want to go deep, use a different tool. Different tools, different focus.
“That type of study”?
You mean, the type that studies every verse in an epistle?
I think these guys have hit on a big deficiency in Lifeway SS material. I am a little shocked you are dismissing that criticism as if it is unimportant.
Jason –
That the LifeWay SS material does NOT go verse by verse is NOT a deficiency, it is by design. It is designed to be consumed by LOST people, not believers. It is not for spiritual growth as much as for introduction to biblical teaching by those who have no Spiritual capacity for biblical meat.
To understand the depths of Scripture requires the Holy Spirit. SS material is designed as an evangelistic tool for church members to bring their lost friends for an introduction to church, fellowship, other Christians, and the Bible.
Greg,
It IS a deficiency. Why? Because you are not teaching a passage to ANYONE if you skip over key verses. They just are not learning the passage at all.
I would also disagree with you that the design of the study is “for non-believers”. I think you have made an incorrect assumption on that. Yes, the Sunday School model is designed to be “open” to include non-believers and visitors, but it is not “designed” for unbelievers specifically. I am holding one in my hand and see nothing that says that if its design, nor do I see that on their website for this material.
But even if it were…what would be the justification for teaching through a passage but leaving out key parts of the passage? Is this how we want to communicate how to study the Bible? Is this how we want to communicate to them what we believe about the Bible: some parts are fit for consumption, others are not that important. Is that what we want to do?
I don’t believe that Sunday School is meant for evangelism…I think the Gospel is for evangelism. Sunday School may be one means of communicating the Gospel. But it is more than that. It is also a place where the Word of God is taught. I agree that the material does not need to be super-deep, especially if you intend to keep the “open” format…but it still cannot communicate bad theology or poor study habits, even subconsciously.
BTW, I would also question your understanding of “spiritual growth” if you think that SS does not have as its primary goal “spiritual growth”. It does. Depth may not be the goal, but growth certainly is. Perhaps you might want to re-think your wording a bit, or perhaps you are just wrong on this issue.
The LifeWay SS material has NEVER been intended as an in depth verse-by-verse study. If that is what your doing in SS, then it is definitely a closed group and not for visitors or non-believers.
You have to remember that there is a SS strategy at work here: FAITH teams should come out of each SS class to share the Gospel and invite believers to join the class.
The SS material is then geared towards non-believer or new believer levels of understanding because SS is designed as an “Entry Point” for non-believers, new believers, and long-time believers who are exploring membership in that congregation.
Non-believers hopefully come to faith, new believers grow and want more (discipleship, not SS) and go on to become reproducing disciple-makers by joining a FAITH team or becoming a SS teacher or discipleship teacher or some other ministry other than the ministry of “seat occupyer.”
It is a cycle; and by design, SS is not the place for verse-by-verse discipleship in that model. If you don’t like the model, don’t use it. No one will confiscate your SBC bona fides if you design and implement a better model for your church. But don’t knock the material because you don’t understand the model or the design.
Joe, the issue is you are trying to use “Sunday School” for something it’s not intended for. Sunday School is suppose to be for people who can’t find Matthew with 2 hands and a flashlight. It’s overview, it’s survey, it’s not “let’s take the next 14 months to cover Romans”. It’s not for that purpose. That is Discipleship time, not Sunday School.
So then. . . are you saying that Sunday School is only for the Biblically illiterate? What do we do on Sunday morning with those what are already Biblically informed and want to go deeper? Tell then to park their kids here until time for worship, go get a cup of coffee, and come back on Sunday evening, when they have to get a babysitter and are trying to prepare for the Monday morning commute? Seriously, I don’t think that is what you mean, but you do seem to be choosing to ignore a criticism rather than deal with it. And as much as I cringe to agree with Joe, this is a deficiency with Lifeway materials. Skipping over difficult or hard verses went on when “we” moderates were in charge, and it continues to this day with the conservatives in charge. And BTW, I am first to applaud the research that Ed Stetzer and others at Lifeway do; it is just that the presentation and marketing of Sunday School leaves something to desire. Our senior citizens enjoy it–for the most part–but none of the other classes do.
John
John
I agree with you. Ok, I think I just threw up in the back of my mouth. 🙂
John, I think the criticism is because we are lazy. The criticsm is “it’s not deep enough”. The problem is 1. Lazy teachers. If it doesn’t go deep enough, go deeper. 2. How do you propose to write material to cover from the Biblical Illiterate to the mature disciple. 3. The idea is that we need to “serve” people. The spiritually mature need to be helping, working and serving. John, church folks need to stop coming to Sunday School to be “fed”. The “Biblically mature who want to go deeper” need to be in a Discipleship class and teach a Sunday School class. If you have a church full of mature Christians with no new believers to teach, time to work on Outreach.
To an extent, I agree with you Dan. To an extent. But who said that SS was exclusively for the spiritually immature, the Biblically illiterate? No Sunday school conference I ever went to said that. No Lifeway employee I heard speak ever did. No Lifeway approved consultant I ever worked with did. Maybe you know something I don’t, but that’s news to me. And if true, it does not answer the question of what the Biblically literate, spiritually mature Christian who is not gifted as a teacher is to do on Sunday morning, nor does it address the hectic pace of life in the Washington suburbs where people either leave for work at 4 or 5 AM to beat the rush hour or spend 1.5 to 2 hours on the Beltway for a 20 to 30 mile commute. As for how to write material for both the mature and the immature, a good place to begin would be by not skipping over hard or controversial verses. At least admit they exist, if only to say that the interpretation is disputed by Christians, and let the SS teachers flesh that out as much or as little as they are led to. I don’t know about now, but when I was in seminary back in 1984-87, professors who wrote for the then Sunday School Board told me that adult student books were to be written on something like a seventh or eighth grade level, and teacher’s books on a ninth or tenth grade level. They said that whatever they wrote went to an editor who inevitably “dumbed” it down, sometimes changing the meaning significantly. I don’t know if that is still the case, but when I read the material, I get the feeling that nothing has changed very much.
John
So I guess when some of you all went to Seminary and took NT Survey and OT Survery, Church History, etc., that you revolted because your professors dared to give you an overview of the books of the bible, or of Church History, right? How dare they! You possibly couldn’t have learned anything you didn’t already know!
Okay, enough tongue-in-cheek. The LifeWay material is useful as a guideline. The idea of covering the entire bible every 7 years is admirable. Most church members probably have never even looked at Zephaniah or 3 John in their lives. The teacher can actually “teach” them principles about the book, themes, etc. (survey) that might spur them to study it more on their own, or suggest the book for study in their disicpleship group.
If you dont want to use it, then write your own material, go verse-by-verse, but don’t imply that high-level thematic study is useless. Especially if you have a seminary degree because what you learned in Systematic Theology was merely an overview, not a detailed lesson.
Dan,
You said in point 4:
“They are not in it for the money. Lifeway is a non-profit, and they give and share much of the money brought it. They sell resources to pay for more resources, they give money to help state conventions, they donate and give much away. They are not a for-profit publishing house.”
A testimony of LifeWay giving to state conventions: About eight years when I worked with the Illinois Baptist State Association (convention of about 1,100 congregations), we were awarded an Evangelism Grant of $150,000 by LifeWay. It was most appreciated and helped greatly! Thanks Again and many Blessings for your work and service!
Iowa Baptist work profits greatly from the generosity of Lifeway.
Dan –
Thank you so much for your kind words. I work alongside some of the finest servants of the Lord I’ve ever know. We are humbled to serve the churches across our nation. LifeWay is not perfect; and her president is not even close! But words like yours are a great encouragement. I pray that we will have God’s wisdom to follow Him as we serve the churches. And where we need to improve, I pray that we will do so with a teachable and humble spirit. Thank you, friend, for being an encourager. I am truly grateful and humbled by your words.
Dan,
When Thom is speaking of “the ‘finest servants’ of the Lord he has ever known,”at LifeWay, he is thinking of me. 🙂
Actually, I flee from Lifeway because of the great proliferation of Bama fans involved 🙂
Please note: that comment is solely a joke to jab at both CB and Thom Rainer and any other Elephant People and should not truly be taken in any context related to Lifeway’s material.
I take back my promise to cheer for the Hogs when they play LSU. 🙂
Now, you know you need us to get your rematch.
In addition to your comments, I would like to see Lifeway do the following:
1. Produce introduction to mature discipleship material for adults. Everyone in the church should be able to disciple a new believer just as much as they know how to win souls. We need to know where to begin and develop disciples that can and will disciple.
2. The “Explore the Bible” series is not truly taking us through the Bible in 5 years because so much is missing between each lesson. You cannot skip 3 to 5 chapters and claim that you have covered a book.
3. Stop the DVD discipleship series. We need to develop men and women’s gift of teaching in the local church. The DVD series takes away the necessary time and personal bible study a teacher needs. We need teachers in our churches that can rightly divide the Word of truth.
I agree with you that Lifeway is the way to go. I think we need to develop material that aligns itself with the best biblical practices rather than what is most popular and sells. I mean this in a nice way. 🙂
Bruce,
I appreciate your comments and suggestions. I would, though, like to point out the current Explore the Bible lesson scope (2007-2015) is an eight-year cycle, not five. Also, the backround passages listed for each weekly lesson do end up covering the entire Bible book, although the lesson passages skip verses in order to focus the lesson points on key truths and concepts. This is not meant as an encouragement to skip reading those verses (or chapters) in weekly devotions and study time. Any Sunday school teacher is always free to diverge from the lesson plan to discuss verses not specifically covered.
Thanks, Dan.
I agree that the teacher should use the material as you have suggested. However, I would like to go a step or two further. If we are going through the bible in 7 years and each quarter has an additional theme for Christmas, Thanksgiving, Right to Life, Easter, Salvation and other side items I think the 7 years is diluted a little. My desire is discipleship. We can use this material or materials that take a person through scripture over a one year period. Then, a longer plan and then a more detailed plan. We use only one “through the Bible” plan and that seems to be all we have. The Great Commission is more emphasized on the discipleship. Our churches and the statistics also show that the SBC is filled with people who do not know Scripture. We really need a three step plan of maturity instead of grouping everyone together. I think the various material provided will cause people to gravitate to their maturity level and cull those who really need to consider their salvation. Isn’t salvation the most important thing? It would also give opportunity to those mature in Christ to approach those who fall away.
Bruce, that is what I’m saying. Worship is a surface level, we do much of our evangelism and very practical discipleship. Sunday School is less evangelism (no alter call), solid discipleship, practical learning, ministry and connection, fellowship and believer integration. Discipleship classes, small groups and such are deeper Bible Study, more theory and theology, deeping of learning, moving believers to maturity. All along they are working and doing ministry, growing in faith and in community connection, moving from learner to leader and student to teacher. Sunday School is PART of discipleship, not the whole program.
Agreed. Good information. Thanks.
I am not really a big fan of LifeWay material for a number of reasons – Bruce hits on one above in regard to the Exploring the Bible series. But I am as giddy as a schoolgirl to see what Trevin Wax is going to do with “The Gospel Project” series. I just hope it is going to be affordable enough for our Church to use it. Please get it into print ASAP.
Dan
Thanks for the post about LifeWay. Yes, they do help the state convention in a pretty considerable way and we are grateful for that assistance. But we are most pleased that the materials our partner, LifeWay, produces, the events and processes they have for us are benefiting the churches. There are many options for churches in the Christian publishing world. But LifeWay is producing materials that are Biblically sound and supportive of our efforts as Southern Baptists. I’m glad the organization is helpful to you.
Interesting discussion. Thanks for starting it, Dan! At LifeWay, we’ve learned that we have to listen. We listen through posts and comments like this one. We listen through the LifeWay reps who live across the country and interact daily with church, associational, and state convention leaders. We listen through our denominational partners. We listen through training events. The Gospel Project is one result of trying to respond to what we’ve heard. So are the other several choices of curriculum materials. As Dr. Rainer said well, we’re certainly not perfect. But we never forget why–and for whom–we exist. Thanks for letting us listen in on this stream!
Most of the complaints I see about Sunday School material is because you are trying to dig for oil with a post hole digger. You want to go that deep, it’s for Discipleship time, not Sunday School. You have to understand what the tool is for and the focus and scope. I hate to be harsh, but stop being lazy and try to do everything in the Sunday School hour. Sunday School is NOT deep discipleship, you need additional discipleship in Closed groups to go deep.
Dan is making an enormous point here that most people are missing because of confusion on two major topics: strategy and definitions. I know this to be true because I used to have the same confusion and see it reflected in the pro & con comments here.
To truly understand the Lifeway produced material (we’ll stick to Sunday School) you have to understand the strategy of SS and how it is defined:
Sunday School (s?nde skul) n.– 1) a Sunday morning gathering of individuals conducting an open group Bible study designed as an evangelistic entry point for non-Christians; 2) a fellowship entry point for Christians who are exploring membership in a given congregation
Open Group Bible Study (op?n grup bajb?l st?di) n.– a bible study session that is designed to be used once and not be dependent on previous material to be understood. It is also not dependant on following material (in other words, no “tune in next week for the conclusion”). This type of material is designed for a specific strategy: that members of a congregation WILL invite their lost friends and neighbors to the study.
Closed Group Bible Study (klozd grup bajb?l st?di) n.– a bible study that is designed to be attended faithfully by those who desire the material. This material is designed to go deep into a subject starting with foundational material and building up on its self each week. This is not designed for non-Christians who might visit once, it is intended as a dedicated study for Christians to grow in their faith and knowledge of Jesus and the Bible.
If anyone is frustrated by the SS material from Lifeway, then Dan is correct: you don’t know how to use it. It is also likely that your PASTOR doesn’t know how to use it since most pastors are NOT trained as educators by the seminaries. They may not understand that SS is an entry point and is not the end-all-be-all of Bible study.
The church I attended while in seminary had such a pastor. He was a Lifeway believer as though they had published the biblical autographa themselves. But he didn’t know how or why the material was designed. I and others wanted deeper bible studies (not for the SS but at other times). His only answer was “no, this should grow out of the SS class,” but he had no strategy for it… Lifeway published SS material and that was enough for him. I developed a deep dislike for Lifeway because of my pastor’s ignorant devotion to them. I realized later that my frustration and dislike was for my pastor’s ignorance and was not the fault of Lifeway. When I met Mike Harland of Lifeway Worship at Glorietta I apologized to him for my attitude towards Lifeway. It was a great experience in reconciliation.
I think we should support Lifeway if you support their strategy of SS and other material. You can use a hammer to fix a toilet: it will quickly transform from indoor plumbing into an indoor outhouse, but it works. If you use the material as designed and do not expect it to be more than it is, then it is great stuff. If you expect the SS material to transform your class members (not visitors) into modern-day Apostle Peters and Apostle Pauls, then you are using it incorrectly.
Thanks Greg, and I will add that this is why our Sunday Schools are drying up and dying.
Yes, Lifeway has designed their material for specific usages. No question on that. I have no problem with that whatsoever. We use it as it is prescribed.
That said, my disagreement is over the fact that skipping verses on a study that is walking through an epistle or book is altogether unhelpful. It doesn’t matter what the target group is or whatever arbitrary terms you place on the type of meeting. Unbelievers, new believers, old believers, and even pastors need ALL of Scripture.
I understand and accept what some have called “watered down” because of Lifeway’s stated plan of attack on the material. My only problem is skipping verses.
So don’t skip them. Curriculum is a tool, do the work.
Well, duh.
But any curriculum that encourages through its structure skipping such verses is not helpful overall.
My church uses Lifeway material and will continue to do so. I also encourage our teachers to teach all the verses and not skip any of them. But you can imagine that they are quite curious whenever the lesson skips verses as to “why” that decision was made. I just tell them not to worry about it and teach the passage – use the material if it helps.
My larger concern is what skipping verses communicates about if all scripture is as valuable and helpful and needed (and even as inspired) and secondly what is driving lesson prep, do we have a lesson we are trying to fit into a passage or are we letting the passage dictate the lesson. If we are doing what we ought to do, letting the passage dictate the lesson, then the lesson will not and can not skip verses.
I’m a little shocked how dismissive you are of this observation.
I haven’t had much experience with this “verse skipping” so I’m dismissive of your prejudice in a phenomena I haven’t really found to be a giant gaping issue.
Clearly someone has a “pet issue” that Lifeway didn’t cover and got something in their craw. I am looking at a copy of the Explore the Bible commentary right now, and I see an overview, but not “verse skipping”. Sounds like a witch hunt to me.
Nope, no pet issue. But nice try at making this a personal issue.
I am looking at a copy of the current “Life Matters”
Ready?
Oct. 9 – Luke 5:17-26, 29-32 (Skipped: v27-28)
Oct. 23 – Mark 5:1-3, 6-13a, 15-20 (Skipped: v4-5, 13b-14)
Oct. 30 – John 6:5-13, 35-40 (Skipped: v14-34) Though this could be more of an overview – I would argue the middle section might be helpful to prove the theme of the lesson.
Nov. 6 – Exodus 3:1-6, 10-15 (Skipped: v7-9)
Nov. 13 – Exodus 32:7-20, 25-26 (Skipped: v21-24)
So, you say this isn’t a giant, gaping issue….but I see it as one that has occurred in 5 of the last 6 weeks. You say it is a witch hunt, ascribing some pretty harsh personal statements to me, but I really see it as something that comes up repeatedly in talking with my SS teachers. I don’t even teach SS, so this isn’t personal – this is something that gets brought up OFTEN, though, by my teachers.
Now, THIS is my issue: regardless of audience, we need to let the text itself dictate our lesson and the points that we teach. That is a basic Bible teaching principle. You don’t bring your outline to the text and leave out the portions of the text that don’t fit your outline….you make your outline FROM the text.
So, you can be dismissive and condescending if you so choose…but you just don’t seem to get what I am saying. I would hope you would not jump to the negative conclusions you did. I was not harsh towards you, your attacks are unnecessary. I would hope we could avoid going down that road on this issue.
Just to prove this is no “witch hunt”…
Our older adults use “Life Ventures”, and students use “Focus”…they all have the same passages (which I think is fantastic and is a huge selling point for Lifeway, IMO). The Guide shows that of the 13 lessons in this quarter, 10 go through a passage and skip verses within the passage.
I hope I have made it clear that it is nothing silly like a “pet issue”…it is about basic hermeneutic and bible study technique. I have also made it clear that i like the material and that I have no plans to move away from the material…I simply pointed out an issue I have that i think is fairly significant.
Does it change the message of the passage? Is there damage done to the scripture? Is the passage taught correctly?
I was not attacking you, we are talking issues, not personalities. The material is trying to cover the text in a short amount of time, I wouldn’t see this as “verse skipping” as much as focusing on key passages. We do this all the time in preaching, never much of an issue. The material focuses on “key passages”, I guess I never looked at it as “verse skipping”. Since the material doesn’t cover every verse in the bible, I am not sure what your solution is. I see no “huge problem” because it doesn’t do any damage to the text. How would you suggest they fix it?
I am sorry if I offended you Jason, I don’t even know you, don’t intend for this to be a personal attack. I never intended it that way. I just really think you are making a big deal out of something that isn’t such a big deal. If I am going to teach on Joshua and his military compains, I don’t use EVERY verse that talks about Joshua, I focus on key verses. If they are not twisting the passages (I taught youth SS for many years, so I know they don’t) then what they do is not only acceptable, but common practice. It’s focusing on Key verses. I guess your term of “verse skipping” is what threw me for a loop. They are not intentially misleading people with smoke and mirrors, which is what I think most of this argument is (please don’t get offended, just don’t see the major concern).
I’m not looking for them to cover every verse in the Bible.
I am just looking for them to cover the verses they say they are going to cover. You aren’t giving an outline of v1-10 if you are really giving an outline of v1-5, 8-10. What are you saying about v6-7 by not discussing them? Where are you getting your outline from if not from the text itself? If the text includes those verse, you should too.
To answer your question: No, that is not what I do in preaching. If every word is inspired by God, then you preach every word. True? Teaching is no different. If you are really teaching the point of v1-5, then v6-7 will not contradict…and if you are really teaching the meaning of v1-5 and 8-10, then you can’t discount v6-7 because God saw fit to have those verses there and they are there for a reason. If it messes up your outline for them to be there, then you have the wrong outline. Getting the Scripture right, and showing deference to it as god’s Word, is more important than having a clean and easy outline.
Moreover, if all you want to teach is v1-5…then teach v1-5 and stop.
When your outline is set up to walk through the passage….which ALL of Lifeway’s material is….then walkthrough the whole passage. As you are walking through through the passage, if you stopand then skip a few verses, I think most people ask: “why did we not cover those verses?” I understand the writer is not being malicious or intentionally avoiding issues or trying to be deceptive (that was never my contention)…I just think it is an unhealthy practice to say you are walking through a passage but then not cover the entire passage.
Now, my people may be more attuned to that because I really do text-driven expository preaching. I let the text provide the structure of the sermon and make the argument. The text provides the outline. I leave out no verses. I skip no verses. So, maybe I and my people are focused on that more than the average church. I’m not sure.
Why is this a big deal? I think it is a principle thing. If we are going to teach our people to read the Bible and let God’s Word define how we understand and live life, then we must let God’s Word dictate how we structure our lessons as well. This is the issue of expository vs. topical preaching, isn’t it? So, it is a big deal in one sense. On the other hand, it isn’t a huge deal as it isn’t heresy or anything.
I think we need to teach, and then reinforce through example, healthy and correct models for studying Scripture.
Jason G.,
I don’ think the writers of our curriculum are seeking a “clean and easy outline.”
I think they are seeking to help S.S. teachers facilitate that “teachable moment” wherein the Holy Spirit takes opportunity to present His biblical revelation to the learners in a class.
I was not attacking you, we are talking issues, not personalities.
Yeah, Dan, you didn’t make any comments that could be taken personally.
Clearly someone has a “pet issue” that Lifeway didn’t cover and got something in their craw.
Sounds like a witch hunt to me.
Both of those comments are clearly about the issue and couldn’t possibly be taken personally. I mean, who would take being told their objections are just a “witch hunt” or they’ve just got something “stuck in their craw” because Lifeway didn’t cover their “pet issue” personally.
Ad hominem much, Dan?
Let me just say this: I wish I could tell people in a my church that they can use anything from Lifeway and trust it would be sound. But, I cannot. However, there are other publishers where I can say that.
I do not know the man who spoke at the 2011 SBC in Phoenix, nor do I know the full history between him and Lifeway. But I would have liked to have heard and answer to the questions he had about selling unsound materials.
I grew up on the SBC Sunday School curriculum and when I went into the ministry and had a say I swore I would never use the Lifeway material. But last year I was looking for a new curriculum and someone said to check out KNOWN for my students. I had never heard of it so I asked my friend if I could borrow his previous quarter material. After going over it I was sold and it has been the single best curriculum choice I have made for my ministry in 13 years of youth ministry.
As it turns out after posting that last part of my last sentence on my facebook a received and invitation to come write so options for KNOWN. I just got back from Nashville last night from my first opportunity to write. And what i loved about the curriculum I loved about the writing. We didn’t skate around issues instead we tackled things head on.
Now with that said I disagree with a statement made by Dan. Sunday School curriculum may be WRITTEN with the lost in mind but if the expectation is that that is who is attending Sunday School in most SBC churches my guess is they need to re-evaluate. I have served in five different churches in my state and been in a couple others and from my experience the attendance in every SS program has been decidedly Christian.
So when I buy a curriculum I don’t buy based on who is my “family” or who has the best intentions but rather I look first for theological strength then for what God’s will is and what the spiritual needs of the people that I am ministering to are. If Lifeway provides that then I use it if not I keep looking.
I will say that the two best things from Lifeway right now in my opinion are the KNOWN series and the Threads series. I have used them both and have seen impact from both.
Maybe most of the issue is that we don’t have new people who are unchurched coming in. That makes your Sunday School less functional. We have lots of new and biblically illiterate in our Sunday School, which is why I have the perspective I do.
Well said.
The old 4 fold task of the Sunday School comes to mind here.
Reach. Teach. Win. Develop.
Seems that our curriculum is set up as we have set up church. We need to think outside the box. New believers could be trained differently than we think. One idea, have lunch for them after church and go through disciplines that would help them grow and connect. There is a space of time each Sunday that can be utilized better in the area of discipleship. It is limitless and leadership should take advantage of it now.
I’m not saying that Sunday School isn’t discipleship. Not all Discipleship has to be “deep, plumb the depths”. Much of it is practical, how do we apply things. Jesus teaching the Disciples how to pray is practical. Use practical and real life stuff in Sunday School. Teach about giving, prayer, helping and serving.
Exactly! There are times we should schedule a focus on a truth in Sunday School. A focus on a truth would work great. If Lifeway has material we could purchase that targeted a single topic we could venture outside the box on a Sunday we know would be effective.
This is the first time I’ve heard that SS is not for discipleship, but for evangelism. I’m quite surprised.
What do you think FAITH is for?
http://www.lifeway.com/FAITH-Evangelism/c/N-1z13ztb
Sorry, I don’t use Lifeway, so I’ve never heard of FAITH. I was talking about Sunday School in general.
Bill Mac,
Arthur Flake, to many in Southern Baptist life, is considered to be the granddaddy of Sunday School methodology for Southern Baptist Sunday School development. He was promoting the Sunday School as the “evangelistic arm” of a Baptist church as far back as 1909, maybe even earlier.
Just did a little searching on Flake. Interesting. I think if a church is successful in bringing non-Christians in to Sunday School, then an evangelistic curriculum is appropriate.
But even non-Christians will perk up when we do a study that reads 7 verses, skips 2, and then picks up again. It never gets past people.
Why, FAITH is used to adminster a survey to find out community attitudes about the church, right? I mean, it’s not like someone would say “We’re doing a survey” just to get a foot in the door because that would be like lying.
I am not a huge fan of opinion polls, but it’s not lying. You are doing a survey to see what the openness to spiritual things, and then try to share the gospel. You seem a little jaded Joe.
If you’re not doing anything with it and your real intent is not to take a survey but to present a formulaic sales pitch, then I wouldn’t call that honest.
And yes, “jaded” is accurate–I’ve got no use for a slick, expensive marketing strategy that is no different in some ways than Jehovah’s Witness in approach.
I don’t currently use FAITH, I have been part of it. Nothing about me is “slick”, so I am not sure your term is accurate. I will be honest, I don’t like the FAITH outline, I think it’s flawed. That doesn’t mean I don’t use Sunday School as an entry point for my church and it has some evangelistic components, as does a worship service. That’s my main point.
I didn’t say you were slick. I said a slick, expensive marketing strategy.
It was a joke Joe. Clearly not funny.
It seems clear we have competing ideas of what Sunday School is for.
Well Bill, all I can say that as someone who is raised a Southern Baptist, used the Sunday School Board (Lifeway), have an Educational Degree from a Southern Baptist Seminary, having talked with the Sunday School leaders in our convention, been to Sunday School training, I have been pretty educated on Sunday School. Please tell me, what is your contrary view of Sunday School?
Well, I can’t compete with your Southern Baptist pedigree, so I won’t trot that out. It was just my observation that to me, Sunday School is a time for studying the bible. Since most people who come to Sunday School are Christians, in my experience, then it is more for discipleship than it is for evangelism.
It’s not a pedegree, it’s just my passion.
It’s a blend. It should be holistic. You should have a system that support fellowship, evangelism, discipleship, prayer, and ministry. It is a place to do Evangelism, there is a LOT of discipleship (not deep, practical). Prayer time, connection time, ministry. It should be a place where a mature Christian can discuss how God is working and new Christians can learn about the Bible. It’s open group, it does Discipleship but it’s not closed group discipleship.
Balance. We need balanced, we go to “the plan” because otherwise we tend to go towards our strengths and desires, and most of us, it’s discipleship and we want to go deep, because we are deep thinkers. We have to work beyond our bends and desires to balance.
Logically, Sunday School, one hour. If you do some fellowship time, 50 minutes. Prayer, you have 40 minutes. If you are doing all your deep discipleship in Sunday School, you are starving your people.
I have a question for all of you guys who are whackin’ on LifeWay S.S. curriculum.
How many of you are in churches that have a Weekly Workers Meeting for S.S. leaders?
A second question, for those who are whackin’ on S.S. Curriculum.
How many of you are in churches who have a yearly Sunday School Preparation Week?
We just had a review from someone from our state convention, it was great and very helpful. We are always looking to improve our Sunday School.
A third question for those who are whackin’ on S.S. Curriculum.
How many of you are in churches who schedule teacher training events at least once a year?
As a bookstore owner who is, I believe, also speaking on behalf of other bookstore owners, we have great difficulty carrying Lifeway product in inventory because of the short discount we’re given. We understand there are research and development costs, but decades ago Serendipity House faced the same challenges but still was able to offer bookstore the full partnership enjoyed by promoting study materials from publishers such as Navigators, Zondervan, InterVarsity, Thomas Nelson, etc. Frankly, I think all the publishers, in varying degrees, take time to develop their products through research and focus groups.
Sorry to say this, but we actively try to switch customers over to other product.
Hi DAN,
just wondering on average how many hours a week do Southern Baptist children come for formal religious education and is it on par with what Christian schools provide in the way of religious instruction?
I use Lifeway now and then, but, admittedly, I have problems with it. One is that it does what I most Baptists use to preach against, namely, raising money by selling goods…like some local church raising funds by a barbecue or fish fry. Baptists have believed that church activities are to be supported by gifts, but Lifeway contradicts that. And then there are books and there are books. I remember seeing one that was a Sovereign Grace book, but I know the source of it and would not recommend it…. Add also the idolatrous charms, crosses, etc., and I fear the outfit is undoing all tht Baptists once stood for.
Recently I saw a crucifix in a Baptist church. It was a shock to me, being an object Baptists have regard as an image of idolatry. I was reminded of a sermon by the President of St. Louis Baptist College in 1959-60, Dr. Rufus Crozier, on the subject, “The Golden Calf Complex.” He was commenting on a church which had a picture of Jesus with a spotlight on it and an open Bible on the communion table with candles on either side. he thought they ought to replace the Bible and the picture with a crucifix and the two candles should be increased to seven. When one remembers that Aaron’s rod was destroyed, when the children of Israel turned to worship it, one realizes how serious the problem of idolatry is. Ours is a faith predicated upon and dedicated to spirituality. I shall never forget that morning in the seminary apartment. The Lord was there, and there was no vision. He was invisibly present, so real, so overwhelmingly there, that He could not have been any more real or present if He had been there in the flesh.
In another blog recently there were comments upon sacramentarianism among the Baptists (a growing problem in England or so I understand). I wrote a remark on the blog to the effect that a Lollard (a prereformation Baptist or Protestant) whose contempt for the sacramentarian view of the communion was so great that he actually carried the Host (wafer/bread) home and fed it to the rats, a conduct that could have led to his being burned at the stake in that day. I think he was later caught and burned. In any case, the symbolism, in my book and understanding, is of far greater power than any grossly materialistic doctrine that the bread is transformed into the actual body and flesh of Christ. Jesus in His Good News is the spiritual food of our souls, the bread of life, that separates us from the gross materialism of the realm in which we live.
Strange how the debate moved from Lifeway materials to essentially defining Sunday School.
Whatever Sunday School is or was designed for it seems like it should flow out of the purpose of corporate worship that takes place on Sunday morning. IOW, the purpose of corporate worship should play a role in defining Sunday School.
Dan,
I have to agree with some of the criticisms voiced here. This isn’t necessarily an issue of laziness or of discipleship time vs. Sunday School. Many churches mandate the use of commercial curricula in an effort to avoid overburdening their lay-ministers and (more importantly) to reduce the chance of introducing heretical teaching in the Sunday School setting.
The problem is that so many of the commercial curricula out there seem to be almost exclusively life-application-driven with the result that the main message of a passage often feels to me like it has been compromised in favor of a valid, but secondary message. In essence, this is the opposite of what should be happening in S.S. vs. closed discipleship sessions. If I have a limited amount of time in S.S. and have to choose between focusing my teaching from the first few chapters of Exodus on the sovereign and redemptive nature of God vs. recognizing and responding to a call to ministry, I’m going to save the latter for discipleship time, rather than compromising the former.
Covering every verse in a passage may slow things down a bit, but it also goes a long way toward preventing teachers from taking material out of context or skipping the main point because “it isn’t the life application part.”