Editor: I also receive the resolution from Joe McGee that William references, and had thought to respond. William did it first and did it better! I appreciate his perspective. You can (and should) read William at SBC Plodder.
The Consolation Baptist Association here in Georgia has passed a resolution suggesting that churches cut their Cooperative Program giving by 25-35 percent and designate this to “state missions” or, as explained to me, to their state convention.
I learned of the resolution from a comment left on SBC Voices, asked for and received a copy of it, and have had a couple of cordial conversations with Joe McGee, Associational Missionary for the association. A previous blog on the matter may be found here.
I judge this to be a well-intentioned effort by some very dedicated Christian colleagues to help the Georgia Baptist Convention in a time of great budgetary stress; however, any move to do so by encouraging churches to make steep cuts to their Cooperative Program giving is harmful to both the state convention and SBC entities.
The idea that state conventions should be helped by encouraging churches to decrease their giving to the International Mission Board, the North American Mission Board, the six SBC seminaries, and other SBC entities is far off the mark.
Joe told me that I really needed to read an explanatory article, linkedhere, that explained the resolution. I read it and found it to be a mixture of misapplied data and opinion. Couple of points…
Brethren, let’s rethink this thing. Thanks.
_______________
Addendum: Joe McGee has sent me a brief email stating that although we disagree on some thing, he thought my treatment to be fair. He does add that the resolution is partly aimed at a method by which churches who are already cutting CP giving may be kept partly in the SBC giving fold. I don’t find that to be a compelling reason for the actions suggested but, again, I give credit for good intentions.
I am the Director of Missions for the Consolation Baptist Association. We are the association that passed the resolution encouraging churches and association to consider providing a portion of their cooperative program contributions to state missions. For those who may ask why?
1. Because our economy is such that churches don’t have any extra finances to contribute to state missions.
2. Our state conventions are in dire distress with the passing of the Great Commission Giving.
3. Since a few of our churches have already voted to decrease their CP contributions and some will visit this item during next year’s budget and because of their dissatisfaction and feeling of disenfranchised with the SBC. It was felt that it would be best that we ask each church to take the portion that would have already been lost to the CP and dedicate it to state missions.
4. The SBC organization do little if any ministries within small town and rural churches, especially in the south, who are struggling to make ends meet and need assistance that normally is only provided by the local association and state conventions. NAMB seems to only work in the metro Atlanta area in Georgia, the rest of Georgia, especially the rural and small town areas, seem to not exist, or are not on their radar. Soul and discipleship training is just as important in small towns and rural churches as those in the North and foreign lands.
5. When those who champion the big churches and follow the mega-church pastors and two presidents of our seminaries leadership in designating money to SBC institutions, thereby, bypassing the cooperative program through the Great Commission Giving criticize our association for our recommendation, we find them hypocritical. Why is it ok to designate finances from the cooperative program to NAMB, IMB, or the seminary the pastor graduated from under the label of Great Commission Giving, but when some church designates to state mission they claim that we are destroying the cooperative program, or that the designated finances to only go toward SBC causes.
6. This is our Great Commission Giving. If you feel we are wrong then be bold enough to charge the two seminary presidents who are responsible and Johnny Hunt with the same charge. They are the main people responsible for the GCG. If what we do destroys the cooperative program, remember they are responsible for it. If it is wrong for one group it is equally wrong for all.
7. Our state convention provides needed ministries that help our churches. The SBC remains to be seen.
8. Since many of you have a big church mentallaty, you do not see the big picture of the struggle of small towns and rural churches. I do not find such people as evil or cold, they jjust have a different religious worldview. Just a thought.
Joe, why not just encourage greater sacrifice and CP giving? This just seems like a monumentally bad idea.
Dan if you would have read the article closly you will find that there is no extra moneys in our areas. If there was, I would ask fopr more associaiton contributions. Our churches need help. Small and rural churches are not on the present unelected and elected leaders’ radar. Some many talk about NAMB and IMB and have no idea of the need in these areas. It like an army that is gunho to go do battles in a far or foriegn country and leaving its bases open for the enemy to attack. I am a strong beleiver in the CP. But the GCG has done harm, we do not want to destroy the CP, only balance out what the states have lost through the GCG and the encouragment of the very same leaders who have no clue of what goes on in churches that are not big or mega in size. I am glad that this has open up a dialogue.
Joe,
I think you say what many feel. The woes of the CP cannot be laid at the feet of the typical, small, neighborhood SBC church which gives a greater portion of their funds to the CP than the typical mega-church.
The “Big Boys” introduced a concept GCG into the mix that has divided our Convention. NAMB is following a similar path. They call it by various names like “strategic, Great Commission, etc.” but the result is we have distanced ourselves from our roots.
I think it is a bit unfair to simply say to the small and rural churches, “just sacrifice and give more to the CP.” Why should there be a double standard?
If this riff between the “Big-city mentality” and the typical SBC church continues to widen, the CP will shrivel up to only a pale image of what it once was.
Well, this has been very interesting to me. I had thought to apply to shorter University (in view of the fact that I have the following degrees: B.S. Ed. Lincoln U, Mo. ’67, M.A. Morehead State U., Ky. ’71, 18 hrs toward a Ph.D. in History {6 at the Univ. of South Carolina and 12 at Columbia Univ where I wrote a prospectus for a doctoral dissertation in Black History}, M.Div., D.Min. SEBTS ’74, ’76, and M.A. in Counseling, Liberty U. ’88, but it required a statement on Calvinism which I took to be a “Don’t bother applying, if you believe in such teachings, even if one of your ancestors might have been one of the executors of Daniel Marshall’s Will and appeared in Henry Holcombe’s History of Alabama Baptists (1840).” Can some one tell me, if that is what the required statement on calvinism is meant to do: eliminate those who hold the same theology as Daniel and Abraham Marshall, J.L. Dagg, P.H. Mell, William Screven, Roger Williams, Dr. John Clarke, Richard Furman, Basil Manly, Sr., and Jr., J.P. Boyce, John A. Broadus, R.G. Lee, Ernest R. Campbell, and a host of others, especially those who in 1787 who adopted as principles of union for Separate and Regular Baptists that the preaching that Christ tasted death for every man shall be no bar to communion? Are Baptists going to allow the differences on these teachings to now end forever the cooperation that has served so well for so long? There are many standing in the shadows who will rejoice to see the once greatest denomination for missions go down in flames of division and discord over the doctrine that inspired the First and Second Great Awakenings and launched the Great Century of Missions. Consider what the Father of Missions among Southern Baptists, Rev. Luther Rice had to say to a brother who seemed afraid to hear the decrees of God adverted to in the pulpit: “Does the brother mean to imply that ‘purposes and decrees’ are not found in the Bible, and do not, therefore, constitute any part of ‘the gospel?’ If found here, why they not be preached? Ought not every preacher of the gospel be able to say with Paul: ‘For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God,’ and if so,must he not ‘PREACH PURPOSES?’ or, would our brother object to the preaching of ‘such purposes’ as the following: ‘That the Gentiles should be fellow heirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel, according to the eternal PURPOSE, which he PURPOSED in Christ Jesus our Lord.’ ‘Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure, which he had purposed in himself.’ ‘In whom we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the PURPOSE of Him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.’
“‘By decrees,’ does he mean anything different from predestination? If not, should he be displeased with the preaching of such as: Having PREDESTINATED us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.’….
“Similar passages are numerous, and surely the ‘good minister of Jesus Christ’ cannot excuse himself, or be approved in it by his master, if he shuns to declare this part of the counsel of God, while he certainly ought to press the obligation of ‘all men every where to repent,’ and to ‘believe the gospel;’ in short, to urge ‘repentance towards God, and faith towards our Lord Jesus Christ,’ as the immediate duty of all, and earnestly to ‘assert the claims of the Messiah upon every mortal.'” (Memoir of REV. LUTHER RICE, one of the First American Missionaries to the East. By James Taylor. Baltimore, Md.: Armstrong & Berry. 1840, pp.237,238).
Does the issue of calvinism thus raised mean that, the trustees and those charged with replacing the faculty and staff that have resigned en masse would not even consider Luther Rice himself, due to his views on this subject? And certainly no one who might hold the same with Rev. Rice without any reference to the powers that be on either side?
I carefully submit this thought…
Could it be that associations, state conventions or mission agencies too often see themselves as the top part of some kind of pyramid funding system? You know, the kind of system that benefits financially from more people who sign up for the ‘business’ by sending a small percentage on to the one who ‘signed’ them up? At first they work really hard at all they do… over time they get soft and lazy but still expect everyone who ‘buys’ in to support their new lifestyle. Sure, they will deny this, but watch and listen to how they talk. They are young and old alike, they are from the South, East, North, and the West. They live in ‘New Work’ states too.
I’m careful to say this, especially because I know nothing about Baptist life in Georgia. This is not my observation of Georgia, it is a question that I ask in my own area that makes some people very nervous around me. I realize that it is far to general of a statement to make and unfairly indites genuine leaders with the harsh criticism of a few.
I know of many who are not part of this ‘pyramid financial system’ behaving as though everyone under them owes them. I read about them in the history books, I visit them in their humble homes, I stand beside them at associational and state convention meetings. They are young and old. There just doesn’t seem to be very many around in our land.
“The Church exist simply and solely to deliver the message, to deliver it to all men. The expansive movement, therefore, is not accidental or occasional, but permanent and essential. Only as the banners move forward does the army remain in discipline. It can know nothing of barracks or of winter quarters, for its purpose is to move on, and always on, until the message is delivered to all nations and the Evangel (proclaiming of truth) is the common property of humanity.
From this it follows that whenever, or if ever, or even so far as, the (church) forgets its functions, plants the banners, and settles down, it falls into disarray; it becomes disorganized, it is found to be ineffectual for the camp, as it is unequal to the march. When Christianity ceases to be a message, a world wide message, and becomes a system, a polity, it rapidly declines, it loses its tone; the shout of the king is no longer in the midst. The memorization of the arrested banners in the van rapidly spread to the rearguard.
The first work of the church, the indispensable preliminary to all efficiency, is to resume the march, to advance the banners, to get the host in motion, to recover the watchword. If we would have the church effective for her simplest work, she must be true to the foremost work. She must inscribe on her ensigns and write in her heart the old word of God. ‘Speak unto her that she may go forward.'”
Robert Horton, 1903 Missionary Review of the World
Brother Joe-DOM
Thank you and your association for working together to further the Kingdom of Christ! It is obvious you are not pleased with the GCR and its ramifications, however do you really want to be the DOM who led in the destruction of fellowship we have enjoyed as SB? Everyone is being affected by the economy, direct giving, and discouragement of all sorts, but this is not the time to give in to selfish motives even if it is for a good cause like the GBC! Remember its not about your town or my town, we have gospel witnesses there, its about the gospel going forward to places where it has never been. We need to pray and lead our churches and associations to pull together by praying, participating, and paying for the advancement of the gospel. I love my state convention SCBC, but it is not their job to win the lost, that is our job as churches and as the people of God in SC. Our state has reduced greatly its members at the state level, so we can put more into reaching the world for Christ. I encouraged you to get back focus on your job as DOM-by helping churches to be Partners on Missions for the glory of God!
Johnny
I am proud of my association. I ask you the following questions. Have you contacted those that were on the GRG committee and accused them of destroying the SB fellowship? Do you beleive that souls in other countries are more important than the souls in your own community? Do you think it is wrong for establish churches in the South to receive training and ministry from the stae convention but it is ok for churches in the North or West? Do you really know what the responsibility and focus should be of an associaitonal missionary or is it just your own opnion? Johnny, do you think that people like you who use flowery words and comments of shame and disfellowship will have an affect on people who do want to accomplish a work for Christ, but do not have the resourcesof the larger churches, or even you, to be successful.
I see those who are so critical to us as one of three things. 1) So naive about what goes on in rural areas that you are overlooking our reasons. 2) Hypocritical becasue you condemn us for our GCG but not those who you admire and follow for theirs. They are the very reason that the GCG exist. 3) Arrogant, you think that you know better than our church where they should spend their mission monies because you place NAMB or IMB above all else. The problem is that there are plenty who are already providing for them, rather than the CP. We just want to balance what the state convnetion have lost.
Joe,
You do realize that many who disagree with you pastor small, rural churches? That’s where I’ve spent most of my time (though not as pastor, for the most part), and while my current church isn’t rural, per se, it’s still a small, struggling church with very limited resources. But we have a strong association here and churches help out other churches however we can. I imagine the task is more difficult for the small, struggling church in parts of the country where there is as yet no strong Baptist association. As much as we are struggling, I do not object to sending help to those churches when we have other means of receiving help here at home.
we have a strong asociaition, however, the economy here is very weak. We have had a lot of business to either move to another country or closed all together. Look, you alrerady have your outlook, there is nothing can be said tha twould cause you to see the situation any different. Maybe if the mega-church pastors that run the convention would consider contributing what most of the small and rural churches contribute percentage wise things may be different. But to hold these guys to the same standard as others could be religious political suicide for some who bloggers. I do want to make it understood that I do not fault those guys, they have a right to contribute where ever they wish. I just have a problem with those who expect us to blindly do and contribute what ever they say but do not give us enough respect to read closly what we have stated and really do not care. It is this attitude that will eventually cause the disenfrancise churches to just withdraw all together. Just a thought
Is the problem really disenfranchisement, or is the problem that people don’t listen to me as much as I want them to? The two are not the same, and while one could be a structural issue, the other could be a sin issue.
But as I mentioned, there are many of us struggling small church pastors, also located in economically struggling areas, who see the moves being made by NAMB and are encouraged. This is not a matter of megachurch pastors pushing their will on the smaller churches, this is a matter of the SBC approaching an issue and hitting areas where there is disagreement. This isn’t the first time for people to disagree, the question is whether or not we will allow it to divide us. My concern is that actions such as that which you propose only deepen division by saying, “You won’t play our way? We’ll take our ball and go home.”
Here is where the conflicts always come down:
One group that says “Is this really the issue worth dividing the convention over?”
and another that says something like “It is the straw that broke the camel’s back for us.”
This is why the SBC will probably not ever see another hard fracture, but will instead see moments like this and have churches trickle away here and there—Chris sees small church pastors that are supportive of the NAMB changes. I’m in a small, rural church and almost none of the pastors around me are supportive. So, we can go back and forth all night–
And lob accusations at each other: one side is just following without thinking, the other side is selfishly taking their toys and going home.
Or, maybe, both groups are local churches using their autonomy to do what they feel is being the best steward of the resources God has given them, as they operate under democratic principles and the Lordship of Jesus Christ. If you want to give one way, then do it. If you want to give another way, then do so. If you want to move on, then go ahead—
As long as however you do it is based not on your personal feelings or beefs with any one person but is based on the church’s discernment of God’s guidance.
But the accusations that fly in both directions need to stop: the claims of selfishness or blind-sheepishness are uncalled for in either direction. Some of the churches that are cutting CP now have given sacrificially for decades and are doing so with very heavy hearts. Some churches that are increasing (or even holding steady) are coming to that point of sacrifice.
Johnny….Answer questions below-thx
I am proud of my association. I ask you the following questions. Have you contacted those that were on the GRG committee and accused them of destroying the SB fellowship? (NO-agree everything was not done perfectly)Do you beleive that souls in other countries are more important than the souls in your own community?(NO-but we have 100 churches in a 30 minute ride in upstate SC) Do you think it is wrong for establish churches in the South to receive training and ministry from the stae convention but it is ok for churches in the North or West?(I think everybody should be bless) Do you really know what the responsibility and focus should be of an associaitonal missionary or is it just your own opnion?(Just going off my association-Piedmont Baptist Association-by the way we give 10% to CP-2 going to 3% in September Lord willing to associational work)) Johnny, do you think that people like you who use flowery words and comments of shame and disfellowship will have an affect on people who do want to accomplish a work for Christ, but do not have the resourcesof the larger churches, or even you, to be successful.(Sorry for my choice of words, i did not want to dishonor you or your association! I merely was trying to encourage you as a leader of a SB association to lead out in a different way that would build up instead of break up fellowship)
I see those who are so critical to us as one of three things. 1) So naive about what goes on in rural areas that you are overlooking our reasons.(Probably True) 2) Hypocritical becasue you condemn us for our GCG but not those who you admire and follow for theirs. They are the very reason that the GCG exist. (I love everyone)3) Arrogant, you think that you know better than our church where they should spend their mission monies because you place NAMB or IMB above all else.(Not any churches-just an association promoting this type of behavior that is harmful till the rest of us) The problem is that there are plenty who are already providing for them, rather than the CP. We just want to balance what the state convnetion have lost. (once again I do not hear the GBC asking for help like this, there must be a reason? This is death to our fellowship(CP) if everyone does what you are leading your association to do)
(Please forgive me Brother Joe if i came across arrogant or ugly towards you or your association, i just think it is wrong. Please pray for me as I will pray for you and your ministry.) Thx Brother Johnny
Johnny, what you do not seem to understanhd is that associaiton are formed by churches. When an associaiton makes a decision it is the decision of the majority of churches. You seem to think that I tell our churches what to think and how to vote. I only wrote the article after our adminstrative committee asked me to do so after they discussed the issue for a few weeks. I do agree with everything in the article. I did tell some on the GCG committee how I felt and several of our leading pastors and I went to Orlando to vote against the GCG because we knew it would affect the state conventions. I have always been outspoken against the GCG and those who rule the convention. This does not mean that I do not respect them. I would be glad to sit down and have a fellowship meal with all of them. I just beleive that they should lead their institution and quit trying to lead the SBC. It is a conflict of interest.
I hate it that in copying my blog Dave ended up with long paragraphs that are so hard to follow.
Joe and I disagree on solutions here. I would reiterate and add:
1. The decline in the CP percentage given by churches is not just a megachurch thing. Churches of all sized and locations have decreased their CP giving over the past decades, though the megas as a category give lower percentages. Johnny Hunt’s mega here in GA is the largest CP giver in the state and dollars still pay the bills, not percentages.
2. Small, rural church pastors who attend the annual SBC meeting invariably join all the rest of us in electing megachurch pastors as our presidents in spite of their low percentages.
3. Direct giving to the mission boards and seminaries did not start with the Great Commission Resurgence’s new category – Great Commission Giving. We have always had a combined societal/cooperative giving system. GCG recognized the reality on the ground.
4. There are no figures on GCG yet, so neither Joe nor anyone else can claim that the establishment of that new giving category fostered any increase in direct giving. Blaming GCG for state convention woes is the reddest of red herrings.
5. The Georgia Baptist Convention has drastically cut their budget and staffing but we are still a state with around 3300 churches which received over a billion dollars in receipts. The GBC still has a budget of around $25 million. I am dumbfounded that anyone would think there isn’t enough money in this state to take care of our own business and that we need to keep some back from NAMB and IMB.
6. The SBC is run by people whose worship experience is megachurch and that seeps into all the leadership positions, trustee positions, and committee assignments. It is no surprise that folks like Joe, and me to a certain extent, find this tiresome and unhelpful.
Generally speaking, the days of big giving by Southern Baptists could well be a thing of the past. The reasons are threefold, namely, 1. the removal of employment for the masses of Baptists as in NC. Such removal involves furniture, textiles, and tobacco. The first two areas of employment have been moved to South of the Border or overseas. Tobacco, for the most part, has been removed by health concerns. Moving the jobs overseas is a means to lessen the costs of production and to break not only any unionizing efforts, but also to void the protections that the American worker has under our form of government. 2. Three other factors have also contributed to the situation of reducing opportunities for employment, namely, automation, computerization, and robotics. When auto assembly lines are shown on the news broadcasts these days, one sees few workers and mostly robotic arms handling the parts. Today, automation and computerization can be set up to provide for a floor in a house to be vacuumed and a yard to be mowed, all without anyone being present. No area of life is immune or guaranteed not to be handled by artificial means that at the best might require a few technicians to keep them running and at the worst might be automated to the point of maintenance equipment working without human intervention. Factory workers are replaced by machines, teachers will also go the way of factory workers along with farmers, lawyers, doctors, technicians of all kinds. Meaning and purpose in and for life will be absent wholesale. Despair and societal breakdown will likely become massive, overwhelming, and worse. Only a visitation from Heaven itself is likely to save our Gospel effort from total collapse, if we failed to grasp what we are facing.