I believe all we have heard was that there are “challenges.”
What is being said ranges between comments like, “It’s not a big deal” to impending catastrophe.
Is it not time for Southern Baptists to be better informed and that directly from the seminary?
Talk to us, publicly, brethren and sistren. We’re on the same side.
Thanks.
________
I thought we are to trust our trustees…that it is really none of our business. Haven’t I read that before?
“Trust but verify”
Trust the trustees does NOT mean that we lose the right to ask questions.
This posture is the result of the type of thinking that says agencies should be allowed to NOT report certain information.
Once you go down the road of saying the people who pay the bills are not entitled to see certain information, what an agency discloses is an arbitrary thing. It can lead to things like this.
Has anyone actually mined the data in the SBC annual? I am not a forensic accountant [or any other type of accountant]. However, I did take a retrospective stroll of the publicly reported books of the IMB, as published in the Annuals, during the years they were burning through assets to pay current bills. In my opinion anyone who was looking could have seen what was happening. The problem is that people out in the hinterlands, which of course includes me, were not paying attention at the time. However, it does take some time to understand these financial statements. I… Read more »
Wish you would take a look. I made a casual comment last fall on the financials that are reported in the SBC annual. Didn’t get deep into it. Scrutiny is being given, and talked about widely, which is why it might be a good idea to hear a bit more from the seminary.
In November, 2017 SWBTS cut about 10% of their FT positions. Considerable events have happened since then.
The stained glass windows in the SWBTS chapel are there to honor participants in the SBC Conservative Resurgence. Cooperative Program money was not used for them. They were paid for by donors who believed in the Conservative Resurgence. I don’t know details of the financial situation at SWBTS. The trustees should let you know, but they have not been known for their transparency. A significant part of the donor base was lost due to trustees treating Paige Patterson so shabbily. They could have replaced him in at least a somewhat respectful way. They chose not to do so. David R.… Read more »
I appreciate this particular comment by my old colleague and I didn’t have the windows in mind. Presumably, they are paid for. But I’m curious. Your family has a stained glass window. Are you aware of any restrictions in theseminarys removing, replacing, or relocating these windows?
Yes, we all read the “strong warning” letter from the major donors.
The only people treated shabbily were the women who Patterson decided to “break down.” The only people treated people treated shabbily were the faculty who were fired at the whims of the Patterson’s. The only people treated shabbily were the retired personnel who had their pensions yanked out from under them so Patterson could have a plantation staff of 18.
I have absolutely no objection to this comment, Amy. David introduced the subject. But I’d love for others not to rehash the catastrophic events of last year. Both sides have one comment. Maybe that could suffice and comments would relate to the business of some public comment on financial challenges.
Thanks.
Ben Cole recently blogged about Southwestern Seminary’s financial woes. Ben Cole states that Dr. Patterson’s administration drew many millions of dollars from the corpus of the endowment and also mortgaged the campus ($23 million dollar note). Those posts prompted me to write to a seminary trustee in our state (Texas). He promptly replied that an official statement would be released soon. So, I’m hoping to read that statement this week.
I am glad you wrote to someone personally! Thank you. Cole’s report was somewhat horrifying. It can be read on the Baptist Blogger site.
Oh David, you mean the extortion? Yes it is gone and I am one Southern Baptist who is glad it is.
Most of what I am reading and seeing indicates that the problems at Southwestern are not due to the loss of some of its contributors, but to the mortgaging of the property and borrowing against the endowment. Most of the donor money seems to have been spent on extravagances like Steinway pianos. I don’t think it is difficult to track down the efforts made by Dr. Patterson to ensure that he had a stacked trustee board of hand-picked individuals. To be critical of their lack of transparency is to be critical of the way he wanted them to be. Given… Read more »
Question drawn from the whole “not paid for by CP funds” statement, and it’s relevant beyond stained glass windows–because it’s a common refrain (from multiple CP agencies, state and national): “This building was not built with CP funds but by designated donor funds.” “This trip was paid for by donors, not by institutional funds.” etc., etc… At what point is it fair to ask the question: “Why were donors recruit to pay for this when there were core needs for the institution that are underfunded?” For example: if SWBTS was cutting staff, or cutting staff benefits, while raising private donors… Read more »
All very good questions and concerns. Should be answered.
Wow. Bingo. The ‘end around’ (to use a football term) exposes the heart of the fund raiser. It shows what is really important to them and it shows that they think they shouldn’t be beholden to processes or accountable to others.
When previous SWBTS presidents began their leadership, they did not seek to dismantle the physical structures of what the previous presidents had done. They did not attempt to erase history. They just built their own legacies. I would assume that would be the case in this situation. Many of those in the stained glass windows are now gone; the others soon will be. My dad is in one of those windows. He is now gone to Heaven. You can read about him in “The Wit and Wisdom of Pastor Joe Brumbelow.” From the beginning, our family was a big supporter… Read more »
Just a brief note on the windows. There is ample precedent for having stained glass windows in chapels. Normally they don’t depict people who are currently working for the institution. I agree that memorializing past heroes of the conservative resurgence who have now gone on to be with the Lord is appropriate. Especially if the money to construct them is not coming out of the funds, such as salaries and operating expenses, which are needed for the seminary to be able to fulfill its purpose. My hobby is ham radio. I am into restoring old time “boat-anchor” radios that were… Read more »
I need a reminder here. What did the Patterson’s dog do for Southern Baptists?
One other point about the SWBTS stained glass windows. They are not on the inside of the worship area in the chapel. These windows are on the outside perimeter of the wide hallway that wraps around the sanctuary. When you are worshipping in the chapel, you are not staring at the participants of the Conservative Resurgence. You cannot see them at all from inside the worship area. You have to go outside the worship area into the hallway to see them. Each of these windows also quotes a Scripture. There are also Scripture markers around the seminary campus. A testimony… Read more »
David:
Thank you for posting information about the windows. I wholeheartedly agree with you on the CR. I appreciate all of those depicted in the windows.
I have never been to see the windows, but the information you provided is helpful.
My own preference is that I would not have gone down the stain glass window route, especially for living persons. I feel the same way about the rotunda at Samford’s Beason Divinity School. But those are personal taste things, and do not affect how I feel about the CR leaders and participants.
Why do I feel that a certain commenter purposely diverted the serious nature and scope of fiscal malfeasance by Patterson to issues of windows? Diversion is a favorite tactic of those…
Amy, surely you mean Roger Simpson mentioned them in his 10:02am post.
Amy: Am I the “certain commenter” you refer to? I am not comparing the situation with the windows to whatever “fiscal malfeasance” may or may not have happened during Patterson’s tenure. I stand by my position that the stained glass window of Patterson shows bad judgment by one or more people at the school. I hold this position regardless of the financial implications of any other actions taken by the SWBTS administration. Until an hour ago I was unaware of allegations regarding firing people and/or cutting off retirement benefits to make way for 18 people who were the president’s personal… Read more »
If you really loved Jesus, you would have a 63 Splitback
Just saying
Following the lead of Jesus, I would be riding a donkey. Not any type of a motor vehicle.
It wasn’t you.
SWBTS recently had about $200K after payroll. Thats how dire it is.
Tear down the windows and name some Dead Sea Scrolls in honor of the Brumbelow clan.
After all of this, nothing has changed.
The Trustees still have not come forth w an honest report and a forensic Audit of SWBTS.
Meanwhile, the Paige P sycophants continue to deflect the real issue w their perception of how PP was treated when removed from office.
DRB, I have always heard of how your father was a man of integrity, how do you think that he would respond to all of this?
Only in the SBC
The windows are a sideshow. I didn’t raise the matter. If someone wants to examine that they should send a submission to Dave Miller.
Mark asked, “DRB, I have always heard of how your father was a man of integrity, how do you think that he would respond to all of this?” Mark, you ask an easy question. My father, Joe E. Brumbelow, supported Paige Patterson from the very beginning of the Conservative Resurgence, and I have no doubt he would support Paige today. They were personal friends, and dad believed in the Conservative Resurgence to the depths of his soul. He also loved lost souls and believed the Conservative Resurgence was essential to the SBC remaining evangelistic. Paige and Dorothy Patterson were very… Read more »
DRB, I somehow think that you and your father would be at great odds on this issue
I would hope that that he would be much more concerned about the millions mis appropriated than a personal friendship , but maybe I am wrong
I will speak no further in regards to him and the issues at hand
AS a concerned layman, this goes to the very essence of perhaps the major issue in SBC leadership, which is lack of transparency at the state and national level. The IMB debacle and now this, who knows exactly what is going on financially? No local church would accept the lack of financial transparency at the leadership level. Pretty sad when the United Way is more transparent than the SBC.
Unfortunately many local SBC churches accept this level of accountability. Especially once you get above the couple hundred attendance threshold. Most of our entities do not think the current transparency is odd because it is exactly how their churches function.
I agree with Louis below, this is a symptom. If some information on finances or function is not for “regular eyes”; who gets to decide which info is protected and which is provided.
Open it all up.
Since your dad was a man of integrity, I hope he would have been crushed to see how Paige Patterson treated people with whom he disagreed. The stores coming out about Dr. Patterson now that he has been defanged are numerous and disturbing. I was not blessed to now you father, but since he was a man of integrity, I am going to conclude that he was unaware of how Paige Patterson treated, maligned, abused, and used people as has been documented in carefully researched and referenced stories over the past 12 months. Perhaps it is time for you to… Read more »
Steve Dilman:
Well said.
The mentality is ingrained in Southern Baptists.
In a recent post at this site it was argued that Southern Baptists are not entitled to know the salaries of the people who work at their agencies. Only the Trustees should know.
That is a symptom of the problem.
I believe the mentality actually starts at the local church.
Steve DiIlman
I worked for over 20 years in a State Government Budget Office. Annually the title and salary of every State employee, including the Governor and Legislators down to the lowest paid job in the State, was published in a widely distributed manual.
I can think of no legitimate reason why Christian churches and the SBC should not do likewise.
We members pay those salaries and that information should be available to one and all. If you don’t want that information about yourself revealed, don’t accept a position in the organization.
Note for “Jerome.” Time for you to identify yourself. Thanks
It is surreal to witness what is happening here. After the way Patterson and Pressler took out many conservative leaders I knew for not being “their kind of conservatives” it’s all I can do not to feel a sense of retribution. From my college days I discerned something was not right about them. None of this now surprises me.