I believe all we have heard was that there are “challenges.”
What is being said ranges between comments like, “It’s not a big deal” to impending catastrophe.
Is it not time for Southern Baptists to be better informed and that directly from the seminary?
Talk to us, publicly, brethren and sistren. We’re on the same side.
Thanks.
________
I thought we are to trust our trustees…that it is really none of our business. Haven’t I read that before?
“Trust but verify”
Trust the trustees does NOT mean that we lose the right to ask questions.
This posture is the result of the type of thinking that says agencies should be allowed to NOT report certain information.
Once you go down the road of saying the people who pay the bills are not entitled to see certain information, what an agency discloses is an arbitrary thing. It can lead to things like this.
Has anyone actually mined the data in the SBC annual? I am not a forensic accountant [or any other type of accountant]. However, I did take a retrospective stroll of the publicly reported books of the IMB, as published in the Annuals, during the years they were burning through assets to pay current bills. In my opinion anyone who was looking could have seen what was happening. The problem is that people out in the hinterlands, which of course includes me, were not paying attention at the time.
However, it does take some time to understand these financial statements. I made my own spreadsheets and applied GAP. Also, you have to really mine down to understand the footnotes. I have an MBA but my concentration was in statistics and management — not accounting.
If anyone is really interested in what is going on at Southwestern, or any of our agencies, then I recommend that you physically show up at the trustee meetings. That is what I did back in the 2009 time frame when the IMB trustee board was totally dysfunctional due to infighting.
In the case of Southwestern they are “under new management”. I personally am not aware of any ONGOING problems with the financial picture of Southwestern.
Some of the past expenditures did have bad atmospherics. Most seminaries do not have stained glass windows showing the dog of the current president. However, these windows could have been paid for by wealthy donors. I honestly do not know.
Reading Southwestern’s books, as printed in the SBC Annual should make it possible to determine if current revenues, including gifts such as endowed chairs bequests to pay for large capital projects are sufficient to pay for salaries and physical plant maintenance and the construction of new buildings.
If anyone really wants to know more than what can be gleaned from the Annual then they are going to have to show up, in person, and ask questions. Writing letters or calling board members on the phone just will not cut it get the information. In my case, I have found BoT members to be very helpful. I have not found that they are trying to keep secrets or obfuscate what is happening.
You only get a tiny snapshot of what is going on by just reading stuff released by Baptist Press. Baptist Press does not do Washington Post or New York Times style investigative reporting. They are a PR outfit for the Exec Committee. BP did not blow the lid off the sexual abuse problems in the SBC. Instead they reported it once it had leaked out into the public domain. Basically all BP does is print news from the 45,000 churches, the State Conventions, and the agencies. BP is not complicit in covering anything up but they just will not take the lead and call for reform in the agencies.
Wish you would take a look. I made a casual comment last fall on the financials that are reported in the SBC annual. Didn’t get deep into it. Scrutiny is being given, and talked about widely, which is why it might be a good idea to hear a bit more from the seminary.
In November, 2017 SWBTS cut about 10% of their FT positions. Considerable events have happened since then.
The stained glass windows in the SWBTS chapel are there to honor participants in the SBC Conservative Resurgence. Cooperative Program money was not used for them. They were paid for by donors who believed in the Conservative Resurgence.
I don’t know details of the financial situation at SWBTS. The trustees should let you know, but they have not been known for their transparency. A significant part of the donor base was lost due to trustees treating Paige Patterson so shabbily. They could have replaced him in at least a somewhat respectful way. They chose not to do so.
David R. Brumbelow
I appreciate this particular comment by my old colleague and I didn’t have the windows in mind. Presumably, they are paid for. But I’m curious. Your family has a stained glass window. Are you aware of any restrictions in theseminarys removing, replacing, or relocating these windows?
Yes, we all read the “strong warning” letter from the major donors.
The only people treated shabbily were the women who Patterson decided to “break down.” The only people treated people treated shabbily were the faculty who were fired at the whims of the Patterson’s. The only people treated shabbily were the retired personnel who had their pensions yanked out from under them so Patterson could have a plantation staff of 18.
I have absolutely no objection to this comment, Amy. David introduced the subject. But I’d love for others not to rehash the catastrophic events of last year. Both sides have one comment. Maybe that could suffice and comments would relate to the business of some public comment on financial challenges.
Thanks.
Ben Cole recently blogged about Southwestern Seminary’s financial woes. Ben Cole states that Dr. Patterson’s administration drew many millions of dollars from the corpus of the endowment and also mortgaged the campus ($23 million dollar note). Those posts prompted me to write to a seminary trustee in our state (Texas). He promptly replied that an official statement would be released soon. So, I’m hoping to read that statement this week.
I am glad you wrote to someone personally! Thank you. Cole’s report was somewhat horrifying. It can be read on the Baptist Blogger site.
Oh David, you mean the extortion? Yes it is gone and I am one Southern Baptist who is glad it is.
Most of what I am reading and seeing indicates that the problems at Southwestern are not due to the loss of some of its contributors, but to the mortgaging of the property and borrowing against the endowment. Most of the donor money seems to have been spent on extravagances like Steinway pianos.
I don’t think it is difficult to track down the efforts made by Dr. Patterson to ensure that he had a stacked trustee board of hand-picked individuals. To be critical of their lack of transparency is to be critical of the way he wanted them to be. Given the circumstances and the outcome, I think the trustees were not only respectful, but incredibly gracious.
For some reason, when I see comments and conversations about the stained glass windows in the Southwestern chapel, Luke 18:14 comes to mind.
Question drawn from the whole “not paid for by CP funds” statement, and it’s relevant beyond stained glass windows–because it’s a common refrain (from multiple CP agencies, state and national): “This building was not built with CP funds but by designated donor funds.” “This trip was paid for by donors, not by institutional funds.” etc., etc…
At what point is it fair to ask the question: “Why were donors recruit to pay for this when there were core needs for the institution that are underfunded?” For example: if SWBTS was cutting staff, or cutting staff benefits, while raising private donors to pay for new buildings or building remodels, is it not fair to ask why? Does it not honor the Conservative Resurgence more to ensure quality training for the next generation of men to preach the Word of God than to build a bigger chapel or put up nice windows or buy Dead Sea Scroll fragments? And the same question would be valid to several state conventions that built/remodeled facilities, or if IMB or SEBTS or MBTS or anyone else had done similar things:
If the organization was raising funds for non-budget items, why? And should there not be accountability questions about the funds? We see this in church designated funds, don’t we? The church votes not to budget for a new van or pool table or senior adult trip to Branson or youth float trip, or whatever, so the folks that want it anyway (sometimes the pastor) go about and recruit people to give to that project as a designated fund, and that way it’s not answerable through the church’s established procedures. Meanwhile, are the donors really so made of money that they are still able to support anything else? Or have you now gotten their surplus for something that wasn’t essential and a generous heart is there but without resources?
This bothers me in churches, and it’s a long-running question in my mind for any CP-receiving institution. I understand the ‘we didn’t take it out of the budget’ mindset, but is it right?
All very good questions and concerns. Should be answered.
Wow. Bingo. The ‘end around’ (to use a football term) exposes the heart of the fund raiser. It shows what is really important to them and it shows that they think they shouldn’t be beholden to processes or accountable to others.
When previous SWBTS presidents began their leadership, they did not seek to dismantle the physical structures of what the previous presidents had done. They did not attempt to erase history. They just built their own legacies. I would assume that would be the case in this situation.
Many of those in the stained glass windows are now gone; the others soon will be. My dad is in one of those windows. He is now gone to Heaven. You can read about him in “The Wit and Wisdom of Pastor Joe Brumbelow.” From the beginning, our family was a big supporter of the Conservative Resurgence.
The Conservative Resurgence made an incredible positive contribution to the SBC and worldwide missions and evangelism. Paige Patterson was in the middle of that, and he and others wanted to commemorate those who stood for the inerrancy of the Bible. Without the Conservative Resurgence the SBC would now be doing social work instead of evangelism (yes, I’m for social work, but along with sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ), and accepting same-sex marriage. Just check out the CBF.
But no, I don’t know one way or the other about legal restrictions concerning the stained glass windows. There are some moral and ethical considerations, though.
I know you, William, did not refer to the windows in your article. But one of the commenters did. And they have been referred to here before.
David R. Brumbelow
Just a brief note on the windows.
There is ample precedent for having stained glass windows in chapels. Normally they don’t depict people who are currently working for the institution. I agree that memorializing past heroes of the conservative resurgence who have now gone on to be with the Lord is appropriate. Especially if the money to construct them is not coming out of the funds, such as salaries and operating expenses, which are needed for the seminary to be able to fulfill its purpose.
My hobby is ham radio. I am into restoring old time “boat-anchor” radios that were built in the 1940s and 1950s which use vacuum tubes.
I guess there is leeway for people to merge their hobbies into their work environment. If I was on the staff of SWBTS would it be OK for me to drag an old time radio into my office? Examples would be a Hallicrafters SX-28 or Collins 75A4.
Or maybe a radio that is physically smaller such as a Heathkit AR3.
If the president can have hunting trophies then I guess the default answer to the my hypothetical question is YES.
I need a reminder here. What did the Patterson’s dog do for Southern Baptists?
One other point about the SWBTS stained glass windows. They are not on the inside of the worship area in the chapel. These windows are on the outside perimeter of the wide hallway that wraps around the sanctuary. When you are worshipping in the chapel, you are not staring at the participants of the Conservative Resurgence. You cannot see them at all from inside the worship area. You have to go outside the worship area into the hallway to see them. Each of these windows also quotes a Scripture.
There are also Scripture markers around the seminary campus. A testimony to the many locals who walk and jog around the campus. Some of the Scripture markers around campus are also in Spanish.
In another building there is a hallway of martyrs, with bronze plaques commemorating those who have died for their faith in Christ.
David R. Brumbelow
David:
Thank you for posting information about the windows. I wholeheartedly agree with you on the CR. I appreciate all of those depicted in the windows.
I have never been to see the windows, but the information you provided is helpful.
My own preference is that I would not have gone down the stain glass window route, especially for living persons. I feel the same way about the rotunda at Samford’s Beason Divinity School. But those are personal taste things, and do not affect how I feel about the CR leaders and participants.
Why do I feel that a certain commenter purposely diverted the serious nature and scope of fiscal malfeasance by Patterson to issues of windows? Diversion is a favorite tactic of those…
Amy, surely you mean Roger Simpson mentioned them in his 10:02am post.
Amy: Am I the “certain commenter” you refer to?
I am not comparing the situation with the windows to whatever “fiscal malfeasance” may or may not have happened during Patterson’s tenure. I stand by my position that the stained glass window of Patterson shows bad judgment by one or more people at the school. I hold this position regardless of the financial implications of any other actions taken by the SWBTS administration.
Until an hour ago I was unaware of allegations regarding firing people and/or cutting off retirement benefits to make way for 18 people who were the president’s personal staff. Please excuse my ignorance. I have not closely monitored on each and every thing that happened during Patterson’s tenure.
Whatever you say about SWBTS, it certainly has had a colorful leadership style in the last decade or so. I still have the book “Anatomy of the Resurgence” which has a picture of the faculty on horseback with their cowboy hats. There is only one Paige Patterson. But I guess there is nothing intrinsically wrong with horses and cowboy hats.
My personal choice for transportation is my C6 Corvette — not a horse. I wear a baseball hat — not a cowboy hat. Different people are free to make different choices.
If you really loved Jesus, you would have a 63 Splitback
Just saying
Following the lead of Jesus, I would be riding a donkey. Not any type of a motor vehicle.
It wasn’t you.
SWBTS recently had about $200K after payroll. Thats how dire it is.
Tear down the windows and name some Dead Sea Scrolls in honor of the Brumbelow clan.
After all of this, nothing has changed.
The Trustees still have not come forth w an honest report and a forensic Audit of SWBTS.
Meanwhile, the Paige P sycophants continue to deflect the real issue w their perception of how PP was treated when removed from office.
DRB, I have always heard of how your father was a man of integrity, how do you think that he would respond to all of this?
Only in the SBC
The windows are a sideshow. I didn’t raise the matter. If someone wants to examine that they should send a submission to Dave Miller.
Mark asked,
“DRB, I have always heard of how your father was a man of integrity, how do you think that he would respond to all of this?”
Mark, you ask an easy question.
My father, Joe E. Brumbelow, supported Paige Patterson from the very beginning of the Conservative Resurgence, and I have no doubt he would support Paige today. They were personal friends, and dad believed in the Conservative Resurgence to the depths of his soul. He also loved lost souls and believed the Conservative Resurgence was essential to the SBC remaining evangelistic. Paige and Dorothy Patterson were very gracious to our family when dad died in 2002 and mom (Bonnie) in 2013. Dad, and mom, would have been crushed to see how Paige and Dorothy have been treated.
While I may be a little biased, I agree with you my dad was a man of integrity. I appreciate you saying so, even though you may disagree with me on other issues. For those who don’t know, my dad was a longtime pastor of churches in Texas. He also loved pointing people to Jesus.
Some might want to see:
http://gulfcoastpastor.blogspot.com/2009/09/wit-and-wisdom-of-my-dad.html
For those who may object, don’t worry. I’ve spent way more money advertising my books, than I will ever receive from their sales. Anyone who wants to write me and give their mailing address, I may even send them a free copy.
David R. Brumbelow
DRB, I somehow think that you and your father would be at great odds on this issue
I would hope that that he would be much more concerned about the millions mis appropriated than a personal friendship , but maybe I am wrong
I will speak no further in regards to him and the issues at hand
AS a concerned layman, this goes to the very essence of perhaps the major issue in SBC leadership, which is lack of transparency at the state and national level. The IMB debacle and now this, who knows exactly what is going on financially? No local church would accept the lack of financial transparency at the leadership level. Pretty sad when the United Way is more transparent than the SBC.
Unfortunately many local SBC churches accept this level of accountability. Especially once you get above the couple hundred attendance threshold. Most of our entities do not think the current transparency is odd because it is exactly how their churches function.
I agree with Louis below, this is a symptom. If some information on finances or function is not for “regular eyes”; who gets to decide which info is protected and which is provided.
Open it all up.
Since your dad was a man of integrity, I hope he would have been crushed to see how Paige Patterson treated people with whom he disagreed. The stores coming out about Dr. Patterson now that he has been defanged are numerous and disturbing.
I was not blessed to now you father, but since he was a man of integrity, I am going to conclude that he was unaware of how Paige Patterson treated, maligned, abused, and used people as has been documented in carefully researched and referenced stories over the past 12 months.
Perhaps it is time for you to stop feeling sorry for Paige and Dorothy and the fact that their sins have caught up with them and to spare some grief for the lives and livelihoods of men and women who have dared to cross them.
It’s to stop acting like the Pattersons are innocent victims in all of this.
Steve Dilman:
Well said.
The mentality is ingrained in Southern Baptists.
In a recent post at this site it was argued that Southern Baptists are not entitled to know the salaries of the people who work at their agencies. Only the Trustees should know.
That is a symptom of the problem.
I believe the mentality actually starts at the local church.
Steve DiIlman
I worked for over 20 years in a State Government Budget Office. Annually the title and salary of every State employee, including the Governor and Legislators down to the lowest paid job in the State, was published in a widely distributed manual.
I can think of no legitimate reason why Christian churches and the SBC should not do likewise.
We members pay those salaries and that information should be available to one and all. If you don’t want that information about yourself revealed, don’t accept a position in the organization.
Note for “Jerome.” Time for you to identify yourself. Thanks
It is surreal to witness what is happening here. After the way Patterson and Pressler took out many conservative leaders I knew for not being “their kind of conservatives” it’s all I can do not to feel a sense of retribution. From my college days I discerned something was not right about them. None of this now surprises me.