A KINGDOM VIEW OF RACE AND MARRIAGE By Wm. Dwight McKissic, Sr.

by Guest Blogger on May 18, 2012 · 88 comments

A KINGDOM VIEW OF RACE AND MARRIAGE

What Mitt Romney and President Obama Believe

Matthew 19:4, Acts 17:26a

By

Wm. Dwight McKissic, Sr.

A Message to be delivered at the Cornerstone Baptist Church, Arlington, Texas, May 20, 2012

“And He answered and said to them, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning ‘made them male and female,” (Matthew 19:4)

“And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth,” (Acts 17:26a)

God’s universe centers around His Kingdom. At the heart of His Kingdom is His Dear Son. His Kingdom is an everlasting Kingdom. His Kingdom is to rule over all the earth. The Bible is the constitution of His Kingdom. Love is the language of His Kingdom. Faith is the currency in His Kingdom. The Holy Spirit is the governor and guide of His Kingdom. Citizens in His Kingdom are often called Christians, and their allegiance and loyalty are first and foremost—to God who sits on the throne; and His Son seated at His right hand; and His Spirit that is our intercessor on earth (Romans 8:26). The Kingdom of God is God’s total answer for man’s total needs. Righteousness is the precious commodity in His Kingdom and is to be sought after (Matthew 6:33). The first and foremost responsibility of a Kingdom citizen is to seek the Kingdom of God and His righteousness.

The Bible says in Proverbs 14:34, “Righteousness exalts a nation, but sin is a reproach to any people.” If righteousness will exalt a nation, what will unrighteousness, disobedience and rebellion do? Unrighteousness will abase or devalue a nation.

The purpose of this message is to speak prophetically to our nation and to President Obama and Mitt Romney on the subjects of race, family and the Kingdom of God. The very foundation, fabric, future and the definition of the family—as we know it today—is at stake. Redefining the family and expanding the definition of a family is a very serious matter that should not be redefined or expanded without sound, solid, scientific, sane, scriptural or even common sense reasons to do so. America needs to understand and weigh the full ramifications and gravity of this situation.

I am equally as concerned about Mitt Romney’s Mormon faith and what the Mormon “Bible” teaches about race. If Mitt Romney is elected President of the United States of America, for the first time in American history, we will have elected a President that ascribes to a “Bible” that teaches that “blackness of skin” is a curse. That is a huge obstacle that he will have to overcome, if he expects “blackness” of skin people to take him serious as a Presidential candidate. The media made a big-to-do out of Pastor Jeremiah Wright’s views on race, while they completely ignore Mitt Romney’s “Bible” view on race. This is the height of duplicity and hypocrisy.

As it relates to the racial views of Mitt Romney’s Bible and the same-sex marriage views of President Obama, my thesis is simple. History, Natural Law and the Bible are all in disagreement with President Obama and Joe Biden’s view of same-sex marriage. The Bible, the Constitution of the United States and majority evangelical thought are in disagreement with Mitt Romney’s “Bible” regarding its belief on race and other topics too numerous to deal with within the allotted time. My goal in this message is to advance the Kingdom of God as opposed to advancing any political party, personality, or people group. What does the Bible teach on the subject of marriage and race? God made a male and female and joined them together for the purposes of procreation, recreation, unification and evangelization of their offspring; and from one blood, He made all nations of men (Matthew 19:4-6; Acts 17:26). Therefore, I want to articulate a Kingdom response to (1) Mitt Romney’s “Bible” views on race (2) President Obama’s views or same-sex marriage (3) and to discuss, how should Kingdom-citizens vote given these realities?

I.        Mitt Romney’s Mormon “Bible” View of Race vs. The Kingdom of God

  1. The Word of God—the constitution of the Kingdom—teaches, “God is no respecter of Person” (Acts 10:34); He has taken “one blood” and made all nations of men (Acts 17:26); and all men should be respected and treated equally (Malachi 2:10).
  2. In the Mormon religion, The Book of Mormon is equally as authoritative as the King James Version of the Bible. Recorded in The Book of Mormon in The Second Book of Nephi, 5:21 & 25, are revealing thoughts about the Mormon view of the origin of darker complexion people and their attitude toward them:

“5:21 And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.

5:22 And thus saith the Lord God; I will cause that they shall be loathsome unto thy people, save they shall repent of their iniquities.”

  1. We get a deeper insight into the Mormon view of race as recorded in one of their four “Bibles,” namely, The Pearl of Great Price, also written by Joseph Smith (A Selection from the Revelations, Translations and Narrations of Joseph Smith, published by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Salt Lake City, Utah, U.S.A., 1968, The Book of Moses (7:8-12), page 20):

“8. For behold, the Lord shall curse the land with much heat, and the barrenness thereof shall go forth forever; and there was a blackness came upon all the children of Canaan, that they were despised among all people.”

  1. Also recorded in The Pearl of Great Price in The Book of Abraham, 1:24, (page 31), is a summary thought related to darker complexioned people:

“24. When this woman discovered the land it was under water, who afterward settled her sons in it; and thus, from Ham, sprang that race which preserved the curse in the land.”

Clearly these Mormon “Bible” verses teach that Black people are “cursed,” “loathsome,” “despised” justifiably and derived the “blackness” of their skin color as a result of a Divine curse. The view of Mitt Romney’s Bible on race leaves me most uncomfortable with him occupying the Office of President of the United States. I question how the evangelical White community can support a man whose “Bible” contains these racist, wrong and unbiblical views.

II.      The Obama/Biden View of Same-Sex Marriage vs. The Kingdom of God

  1. Marriage has everything to do with The Kingdom of God. Jesus compared the Kingdom of heaven to a king who arranged a marriage for his son (Matthew 22:2). When a husband and wife come together and produce a child, the three reflect the trinity of the Trinitarian God who made them. God established marriage to populate His Kingdom and spread His name to the generations (Psalm 145:4) that would be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth (Genesis 1:27-28).

In Malachi 2:15-16, God makes it clear that a primary purpose of marriage was to produce “godly offspring”. That’s why the Lord hates divorce—but not divorced people.

15But did He not make them one, Having a remnant of the Spirit? And why one?
He seeks godly offspring. Therefore take heed to your spirit, And let none deal treacherously with the wife of his youth.

16 “For the Lord God of Israel says That He hates divorce, For it covers one’s garment with violence,” Says the Lord of hosts. “Therefore take heed to your spirit, That you do not deal treacherously.”

How can a same-sex couple produce a “godly offspring”? They can’t! It is biologically impossible, because God never intended for two person of the same sex to marry! Adultery and fornication are also sin in the Kingdom of God. The Bible also calls adultery an abomination (Hebrews 13:4).

  1. In the Kingdom of God Jesus declared that marriage was God’s idea—not Sasha and Malia Obama’s. God set the parameters on marriage. In Matthew 19:4, in response to a question by the Pharisees regarding marriage and divorce, Jesus said, “Have you not read that He who made them at the beginning made them male and female”? Marriage 101 is that marriage is comprised of a male and female. The Word of God should not take a backseat to contemporary culture. Contemporary culture must take a back seat to the Word of God. Kingdom citizens/Christians should not compromise on this issue.
  2. The testimony of history supports marriage between a man and a woman, and same-sex marriage violates the constitution in the Kingdom of God.
  3. Martin Luther King, Jr. was not supportive of homosexual relationships. In response to a boy who wrote Dr. King admitting to having an attraction to other boys, just as he also was attracted to girls; Dr. King had this to say:

Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. was writing an advice column in 1958 for Ebony Magazine when he received an unusual letter.

“I am a boy,” an anonymous writer told King. “But I feel about boys the way I ought to feel about girls. I don’t want my parents to know about me. What can I do?”

In calm, pastoral tones, King told the boy that his problem wasn’t uncommon, but required “careful attention.”

“The type of feeling that you have toward boys is probably not an innate tendency, but something that has been culturally acquired,” King wrote. “You are already on the right road toward a solution, since you honestly recognize the problem and have a desire to solve it.”  (religion.blogs.cnn.com/2012/01/16/what-did-mlk-think-about-gay-people) (Emphasis mine)

Dr. King’s view on this subject trumps all of the current so-call Black leaders, who unfortunately have abandoned the biblical position and bowed at the culture of political expediency and correctness. My posture will remain true to the word of God! In the words of the old Negro spiritual when it comes to approving of same-sex marriages—“I shall not, I shall not be moved; I shall not, I shall not be moved. Just like a tree planted by the waters, I shall not be moved.” God has called the church to be the moral guardians of society, to be the salt of the earth and the light of the world.

The church cannot be seduced by the government, but rather, speak truth to the government. Jesse Jackson, Otis Moss, Jr., Al Sharpton, Michael Dyson and Julian Bond all need to be placed in an intellectually dishonest debtors’ prison for comparing slavery to the practice of homosexuality. This is an insult to the slaves and the entire African American community. The suffering of the slaves is so far greater than anything that so called “same-gender loving” people have experienced; how can these men compare people who prefer their primary identification to be their libido, in the same sentence with persons who were enslaved because of their racial classification that they had absolutely no control over. Most homosexuals claim that they discovered that they were homosexuals when they were 10, 15, or 25 years of age. Black people did not have to wait 20 or 30 years to discover they were Black. I dare you compare the plight of the slaves to the plight of the homosexuals. This is insulting, offensive and demeaning to compare the slave’s skin to their sin. This is not an issue of marriage equality, but an issue of moral sanity.

George Washington Carver was a strong Bible-believing Christian in addition to being an agricultural and science professor at Tuskegee Institute. He taught Sunday School weekly on the campus of Tuskegee Institute. He clearly viewed Genesis 19 as an illustration of the judgment of God on a nation that embraces homosexuality. While discussing Sodom and Gomorrah, Dr. Carver asked his class, “And what happened to these wicked cities?” He viewed the desire and activity of same-sex involvement as “wicked.” He then used his scientific talents to cause a sudden burst of flames and fumes to shoot up from the table, and the Bible students fled. He sure knew how to make Sunday School interesting and to illustrate his point. George Washington Carver taught against the practice of homosexuality. (George Washington Carver; An American Biography, by Rackham Holt, 1943, Doubleday, Doran and Company, Inc., Garden City, NY, p. 198)

In September 1929 Rev. Adam Clayton Powell, Sr., published a series of sermons on sexual perversion, (as per an article written by John McWhorter entitled, “What the Harlem Renaissance Teaches about Gay Rights”). Powell stated that homosexuality was one of the powers that debased a race of people and could destroy the Black family.

“Powell considered this “perversion” to be “one of the most horrible, debasing, alarming and damning vices of present-day civilization.” He decried “contact and association” with gay people, considered them a threat to the “Negro family.” He hated homosexuality for “causing men to leave their wives for other men, wives to leave their husbands for other women and girls to mate with girls instead of marrying.”(http://www.theroot.com/views/what-harlem-renaissance-teaches-us-about-gay-rights)

It appears that politicians and preacher/politicians are teaming together to destroy the Black church’s strong opposition to homosexuality. This is also an attack on the Black family; and it is a vicious and violent assault of the kingdom of darkness against the Kingdom of God.

Augustine said:

“Those shameful acts against nature, such as were committed in Sodom, ought everywhere and always be detested and punished. If all nations were to do such things, they would be held guilty of the same crime by the law of God, which has not made men so that they should use one another in this way (Confessions 3:8:15 [A.D.400]).” (http://www.gcmwatch.com/97/an-unbroken-witness-against-sexual-sin)

The truth of the matter is that the act of homosexuality is unnatural. A female biologically uniquely responds to a male in a manner that is biologically impossible for a male to respond to another male; thus proving that homosexual sex is unnatural. I agree with Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.: “Same-sex attractions are not innate or natural; they are produced from cultural or environmental factors.”

I agree with Rev. James Meeks:  “I love my President, but I love my Bible even more.” It is my conviction that Romans 1:32 forbids me from supporting anyone who supports homosexuality. Y-Love (a Black, male, Jewish rapper) illustrates this problem in his statement:

“‘I’m ready to find a husband,’ Jordan continued. ‘I’m ready to live without fear of being outed or the stress of keeping my whole self from people. And I’ve waited too long to do that.” (http://marquee.blogs.cnn.com/2012/05/15/jewish-rapper-y-love-comes-out-publicly-as-gay)

That is not marriage equality—that is moral insanity! Same-sex marriage destroys the natural argument analogy that Jesus used to explain Christ as the groom and the Body of Christ as the bride. Marriage between a man and woman is not discrimination against same-sex marriage, but is simply a standard.

III.    HOW SHOULD A KINGDOM CITIZEN/CHRISTIAN VOTE?

There are persons that say, no one should be a one-issue voter. I disagree. It depends on what that one issue is. If one candidate was advocating placing people of color back into slavery if he or she were elected, we would all become one-issue voters. If one candidate advocated paying females workers systematically less than male workers, those of us with females in our families would become one-issue voters. If a presidential candidate ran on a platform requiring all eighteen year-olds—male and female—to be drafted and to spend a minimum of two years in the military, there would be many one-issue voters, voting against this. There are certain single issues that rise to a degree of importance and impact, or violate one’s conscience and convictions to the extent that one would make a voting decision based on that single issue.

There is at least a single issue—the Mormon “Bible” race issue—that leaves Mitt Romney extremely askance as I look through Kingdom eyes. The same-sex marriage issue leaves President Obama extremely askance as I look through Kingdom eyes. It is my prayer that both men would have a change of heart so that I could have an option in voting. But if there is no change by Election Day, I will vote for other persons on the ballot, but I will not cast a vote for President.

Some people say, vote for the lesser of “two evils.” That I will not do. I don’t have to settle for lessor, because I serve a God who is greater, and He’s my King. At the end of the day, I agree with the Apostles; “…there is another king”—Jesus (Acts 17:7). Thank God that I belong to another Kingdom—the Kingdom of God. In His Kingdom, the definition of marriage is clear. In His Kingdom, every kindred, tongue tribe and nation are equally loved and accepted. In His Kingdom, the wicked shall cease from troubling and the weary shall be at rest. In His Kingdom, the gospel is preached to the poor. In His Kingdom, the hungry are fed; the naked are clothed; the sick and in prison are visited. In His Kingdom, He sits on the throne, high and lifted up. It is a scandal-free Kingdom.

If I’m allowed to write in a candidate for President, I will write in JESUS…Because that’s my King. He is a righteous King. He is judicious in His justice. He’s matchless in His mercy. He’s bountiful in His blessings. He’s merciful in His compassion. He’s majestic in His splendor. He’s holy, as none other. He’s awesome, in His acceptance of whosoever will—let Him come. He’s the Lord of life. He’s the Rock of Ages. He’s the fairest among ten thousand. He is a great Shepherd. He is a great Physician. He is a great Savior. He is a burden bearer. He feeds the hungry. He heals the sick. He governs, and He guides. If I have to, on Election Day, I will vote for Jesus. There is another King. His name is Jesus. Martin Luther said, “My conscience is captive to the word of God. To go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me…here I stand!”

All hail the power of Jesus’ name
Let angels prostrate fall
Bring forth the royal diadem
And crown Him Lord of all
Bring forth the royal diadem
And crown Him Lord of all

 

1 Greg Harvey May 18, 2012 at 6:08 pm

Thank you Dwight for sharing this with us. I had forgotten the “one blood” verse.

The Negro spiritual you mention–as well as your handling of your material at large–reminds me of Psalms 1, especially verse 3 which I set to a bold fontface (I offer it in the KJV for the poetry):

1 Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly,
nor standeth in the way of sinners,
nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD;
and in his law doth he meditate day and night.
3 And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water,
that bringeth forth his fruit in his season;
his leaf also shall not wither;
and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

4 The ungodly are not so:
but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.
5 Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment,
nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.
6 For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous:
but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

2 Dave Miller May 18, 2012 at 6:19 pm

I have two questions, Dwight.

Let me preface these by saying that my enthusiasm for Mitt Romney is not particularly high, but nonetheless, I intend to vote for him against the president.

Here goes:

1) Has not the Mormon church abandoned their racist teachings? I am certainly no expert on Mormonism, but as I understand it, they adopt a continuing revelation principle. In other words, the latest revelation is more authoritative even than the text of the Book of Mormon.

And I am under the impression that more recent “revelation” among the Mormon elders has abandoned these racist teachings.

2) Is there any evidence that Mitt Romney now or ever has subscribed to the Mormon racist teachings you have enumerated here?

I can fully agree with your longing for the reign of King Jesus over all the earth! But, if that is not going to happen, we are going to have to select a human being to lead the executive branch of our government.

I have my suspicions about Romney’s convenient conversions on certain issues, but one man stands (at least by his word) against abortion and another supports it. One man stands for marriage being between a man and a woman, the other now supports gay marriage.

If there were evidence that Romney himself was a racist, I would reject him and just leave the president slot blank, or vote for some independent or obscure party candidate. But short of that, I plan to hold my nose and vote Romney, based on his stated positions on moral issues, as well as other policy issues, and in the absence of evidence that he ascribes to the racist teachings of the Book of Mormon.

On this I think we can agree. Even so, Lord Jesus, come quickly.

3 Greg Harvey May 18, 2012 at 6:22 pm

Dave:

Not trying to answer for Dwight, but this quote:

“Beginning with Joseph Smith, The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has always been led by a prophet of God. These prophets also serve as Presidents of the Church and direct the affairs of the Church.”

Is present on this website: ( http://www.lds.org/churchhistory/presidents/leaders.jsp )

Nothing prevents a sitting president of the LDS “church” from changing the text if they are able to change the doctrine. They just choose not to do that.

4 Greg Harvey May 18, 2012 at 6:41 pm

And for good measure, Jerald and Sandra Tanner’s online book on the subject: ( http://www.utlm.org/onlinebooks/curseofcain_contents.htm )

You can learn more about them via the wiki page ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerald_and_Sandra_Tanner ).

Two links might send this into moderation, which gives Dave the opportunity to reject the comment and I’m fine with that.

5 Dwight McKissic May 19, 2012 at 8:04 am

Greg,

Bingo!!!! You have also answered Bart Barbers question as well. U’d live to hear Bart’s & Dave’s response to your answer. You made point & grasped the point if my post related to Romney’s “Bible.” Many Black Baptusts are wondering how are Southern Baptists ignoring or disregarding the point u made in ur comment.

Dwight

6 Bart Barber May 18, 2012 at 10:12 pm

Dave’s point is very well taken, I think. Obama’s personal endorsement of same-sex marriage must necessarily be taken as his personal view. Romney the RINO’s views of race are probably NOT the views of Joseph Smith. Certainly the post offers no evidence that Romney has personally endorsed these views.

7 Bart Barber May 18, 2012 at 10:39 pm

For example, Dwight, would you personally want to have to be judged by and answer for everything that Southern Baptists have ever done and believed?

I know I wouldn’t! ;-)

8 Dwight McKissic May 19, 2012 at 9:44 pm

Bart and Dave,

Romney’s “Bible” contains the racist teachings under discussion. Why would we assume that he does not embrace the teachings in his “Bible” concerning race? The Mormon Church has never recanted these statements in their text. If the Bible that Southern Baptists used–or the Holman Bible–contained these racist views, wouldn’t you find it necessary to distance yourself or renounce these racist views in the strongest possible terms, if you were running for the POTUS? Where is the proof that Romney is in disagreement with his “Bible” on these issues?

Dwight

9 Dwight McKissic May 19, 2012 at 7:57 am

Dave,
I’m in Little Rock, Ar. preaching in a Men’s Conference, therefore my responses will be brief, and I will only be able to further interact about 9pm tonight.

Yes, Mormobs have open revelation; however they only announced that Blachs were now eligible for the priesthood. They never recanted the statements I quoted that still to this day is considered equal to ir greater than the Bible. There are Black Mormon’s that are vocal about the need for the Mirmon church to recant the above statements but soar they have refused. Therefore, I can’t vote for Mitt. Until Romney tells us what he believes about his “Bible” verses I quoted, we really don’t know what he believes.

Dwight

10 Steve Potts May 18, 2012 at 6:29 pm

Shouldn’t we seek Mitt Romney’s actual stand on the race issue and how he would govern, rather than simply quote a passage from the Book of Mormon? While I do not agree with his Mormonism, I do not think it is charitable or fair to judge him based on a stance that his church has officially changed. Some Southern Baptists in the past (even leaders) held wrong views on race and claimed to base them on the Bible. But the convention has rejected such views. Such a troubled past has not kept Pastor McKissic from being a valued part and an important voice in the convention today. Yet he says he cannot vote for Romney because of the racism that characterizes his church in the past. I deeply respect McKissic for confronting our President’s wrong views on same-sex marriage, but I don’t think he’s being as thoughtful about Romney.

11 Frank May 18, 2012 at 6:41 pm

A person who is “constrained” by self-interest to act in a certain way is not a person that can be “trusted” to act in the same way absent that constraint.

Officially, Romney might act one one, but a lot of how a President influences the culture is “unofficial.”

The Romney and “race” issue comes down to a matter of “trust” for me. Can he be “trusted” to act in a way that the majority of those in his denomination do not support–except out of contraint and political expediency?

This is a “judgment” call and I will be using my “judgment.”

12 Steve Potts May 18, 2012 at 7:05 pm

What is the evidence that Romney has ever been a racist? His father was a strong supporter of Civil Rights. In fact as govenor of Michigan he resisted his church and continued to push for civil rights. Mitt Romney was raised in a family that stood up for Martin Luther King, even when many conservative Christians did not. I don’t believe Romney is a perfect candidate and I am concerned about how strong his conservative convictions are on some issues (based on his record), but to insinuate that his racial views aren’t sincere (absence some evidence about what he has said or done) does seem to me to be uncharitable and unfair.

13 Frank May 18, 2012 at 7:23 pm

Steve,

No disagreement. I think I was clear that I had “trust” issues because of his Mormonism in general and not specifically any actions or statements on racism.

I’m trying to be open-minded and fair. I doubt very seriously I will vote in the next election if Romney is the choice. I would have had some problem with JFK, but not near the problem with Romney.

Again, it is not a “religious test” for me, but a “trust” issue. It is hard to “trust” someone that believes we descended from an ancient planet that has never been discovered.

And, that’s just the tip of the problem with Romney and Mormonism.

How can we trust someone that is so easily deceived about issues that eternal to make solid decision about issues that are temporal–including but not limited to racial issues?

14 Steve Potts May 18, 2012 at 8:02 pm

Fair question. I am not encouraging anyone to vote for Romney (or Obama). But I do think we should be careful to consider that many of our presidents over the years have not held to orthodox Christianity and yet some of them gave wise and valuable leadership to our country. This includes some of the founding fathers. God raised up pagan kings, like Cyrus, who were used for the good of God’s people in biblical times and we should be prayerfully open for such possibilities today. I think Abraham Lincoln turned out to be a good president despite some serious questions about his views on Christian doctrine at points. I don’t think a review of Romney’s governing history and business leadership indicates someone given to religious or political extemism. If in fact Romney is more committed to his religious values than say, Bill Clinton was to his, we would probably see policies that are far more in line with conservative evangelical positions on pro-life, traditional marriage, religious freedom issues, etc. I certainly respect those who cannot vote for Romney because of his Mormonism. But if all evangelicals share that view, Obama will be re-elected. The result will be the further promotion of same-sex marriage, pro-abortion policies, and other positions that many evangelicals disagree with. At the end of the day, we have to choose the best options we actaully have, not the idealistic hopes we wish we had.

15 Frank May 18, 2012 at 9:12 pm

Steve,

I cannot argue well against your reasoning . . . but it must be wrong if I don’t agree.

No, I think you are right, and I think I will no doubt be forced to cast my lot in a totally “secular” way in order to prevent four more years of Obamanation.

Truly, as the Chief points out either above or below (I’m never quite sure where I am) Obama’s professed beliefs are far more sinister and ungodly than Romney’s.

The faster he’s gone–the better for everyone.

16 Dwight McKissic May 19, 2012 at 8:09 am

Stephen,

Until Rimnet renounce the text if Scriptyres I quoted from his “Bible”, as a Black man, I!d be a fool to vote for him.

Dwight

17 Dwight McKissic May 20, 2012 at 12:40 am

Steve,

Where is the evidence that Romney’s church has changed? These texts remain in their “Bible”. How do you know they no longer “officially” hold to these text of “scripture” I quoted?

Dwight

18 Christiane May 18, 2012 at 7:31 pm

In the following interview on Meet the Press in 2004, Romney speaks clearly to this issue. Sometimes it’s good to hear someone speak in their own words. I honestly do not know if Romney has changed his opinions on race since that interview eight years ago. The very fine journalist Tim Russert conducted the interview then on ‘Meet The Press’:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&feature=endscreen&v=Pcw0woPX5VY

19 Chief Katie May 18, 2012 at 8:32 pm

I’m having a difficult time trying to understand how the President’s recent stand FOR gay marriage, in any way trumps his being FOR for pro-choice? If we are going to quantify or attach a level of quality to sin, how in the world can any Christian vote for a man who thinks his daughters will miss opportunities and be “punished” (his words) by an unwanted pregnancy? So much so, that he can justify the killing of a human being?Then, just to make sure everyone knows how much he is in bed with Planned Parenthood, he wants to force people against their religious conscience to purchase abortafacients. For heaven’s sake, BHO didn’t even want to pass legislation to render medical aid to a child that survived abortion? Despicable, I don’t care what race a person is. This is a monstrous stand.

I’m not going to pretty this up. BHO is deplorable.

I’m not a fan of Mitt Romney, but I will be casting my vote for him, just to avoid 4 more years of BHO.

20 Dwight McKissic May 19, 2012 at 9:27 pm

Chief Katie,

I totally oppose abortion. The right to life trumps all other issues. I believe that. And because of that, I did not vote for President Obama in 2008. Therefore, I’m somewhat confused by your comment, or perhaps you were not directing it toward me.

Dwight

21 Joe Blackmon May 19, 2012 at 8:04 am

I question how the evangelical White community can support a man whose “Bible” contains these racist, wrong and unbiblical views.

Well for me it’s a very simple choice. Vote for a man who is a member of an organization that taught black people were cursed by God (a view I find repugnant and offensive) when he has never personally affirmed that he believes that to be true

or

Vote for a man who worked strenuously while in office to deny basic medical care to survivors of abortions and who personally holds the view that same-sex marriage is acceptable to Jesus.

That is a no-brainer for me. If Romney affirmed his church’s views on race I might have a quandry and I don’t like Romney now. But if I could vote like a Democrat I’d vote twice myself and register my dog, my dead grandmother, and 6 illegal immigrants and vote in their names and mine for Romney.

22 Dwight McKissic May 19, 2012 at 8:19 am

Joe,

Vote as u please, but his “Bible” that he never distanced himself from–even prior to– the Mormon ’78 priest inclusion announcement–which, btw–has never happened–precludes me from voting for him. How do u explain him being 31 years old & a lawyer not recanting those statements in his “Bible”? U all are giving Romney a pass not based on facts.

Dwight

23 Chief Katie May 19, 2012 at 12:55 pm

Dwight,

I can agree with your statement here. It seems a fair question. So you’ll please explain how you could support a president who has such heinous views of unborn children even to the point of the letting abortion survivors go without medical aid. Then there is that pesky HHS mandate that forces you and I to pay for abortifacients making us complicit in murder.

Let’s see a ‘possible racist’ or an ‘avowed abortion supporter’. Easy choice for me.

24 Frank L. May 19, 2012 at 1:08 pm

Chief,

Well said. It seems very odd to take the position of giving a pass on abortion but standing up against racism.

I’m hoping Dwight can clear this sticky issue up.

25 Chief Katie May 19, 2012 at 3:59 pm

Frank,

I am sincerely hoping that Dwight can answer these questions as well.

Of course I always imagined that Dr. George Tiller would be able to explain what he was doing at a NEA teacher’s union conference, or the lobby of the Lutheran Church. I suppose I’ll never know.

I know that my tone is not very conciliatory. I work with young women who have spent decades riddled with guilt over their abortions. There are few things that make me more angry than the deliberate act of killing a child. Anyone who can support that so that his daughter won’t be “punished” or so they won’t miss an “equal opportunity” is just evil.

Bottom line, I can’t understand how Dwight, who seems like a great Christian who truly loves the Lord, can reconcile these two acts as fitting of any President.

Come Lord Jesus indeed.

26 Dwight McKissic May 19, 2012 at 9:29 pm

Frank L.,

What is your basis in fact that I have given the President a pass on abortion?

Dwight

27 Debbie Kaufman May 19, 2012 at 2:41 pm

Easy choice??? Really Chief Kate??? Whoa.

28 Frank L. May 19, 2012 at 3:08 pm

Debbie,

Just so I can be clear: are you saying that racism is a more grievous evil than abortion?

People who face discrimination because of race do indeed face grave injustice, but can that be compared to being torn apart in your mother’s womb and being discarded as trash?

Perhaps you meant something different than what you suggest in your post to the Chief.

This is an extremely painful element that is developing in this election cycle. I fear for our nation when we so often have to choose between two evils (if that is in fact the only choice we have in this election).

It seems clear to me that one can reasonably assume the following: if Obama is elected, more innocents will be slaughtered, but if Romney is elected more innocents may be saved. That seems like a cut and dried conclusion.

Now, if Romney is elected, there is “no” indication that racism will increase in our nation.

So, I’m faced with: 1) Obama who believes in baby-killing and promotes it (among many other grievous evils); or Romney who is a member of a cult that has a serious problem with racist statements in their guiding documents.

Maranatha–come quickly Lord Jesus.

29 Debbie Kaufman May 19, 2012 at 3:12 pm

I’m saying both are equally horrendous. I am saying that in all good conscience I cannot vote for either one. To say it’s an easy choice reveals a lot in my opinion.

Are you saying, just to be clear Frank, that racism is a lesser issue than abortion?

30 Debbie Kaufman May 19, 2012 at 3:16 pm

BTW: The last time Romney ran for President, Franklin Graham, Richard Land and other Southern Baptists were grooming him in order for us to buy Romney for President. He hasn’t forgotten those lessons and lessons he learned by not being elected last time, this time. I didn’t buy it then either.

31 Chief Katie May 19, 2012 at 3:40 pm

Yep easy. Hands down easy.

I don’t like Romney. In fact, I seriously think that he waffled on abortion during his run for Massachussetts governor. I think Romney will do or say just about anything to be elected. I have two children living in Massachusetts and they are both working two jobs to buy Romneycare. No, Deb, Romney will not warrant any admiration from me.

Where the issue becomes ‘easy’ is simply identifying the evils. BHO is leading our country into a septic tank of immorality. I live with Mormons on every street corner. I taught Mormon children for more than 10 years. If I ever needed something done for the benefit of the students, I could count on Mormon families to come through. I even watched hundreds of Mormon parents physically come to remove their children from school when they heard that the school district wanted to teach about tolerance to kids who have two daddies or two mommies. What a sight. Mormonism is a cult. No doubt in my mind. But if we lay aside the actual teachings, let’s look at how Mormons conduct themselves in our communities. I daresay, when the rubber meets the road, they put many, many Christian familes to shame.

Finally Debbie, I don’t claim to have any special insight into every controversy on the planet. I’d like to suggest that you don’t either. Speak for yourself. I did.

Let’s not forget the SBC was indeed responsible for some fairly racist teachings not so many decades ago.

32 Joe Blackmon May 19, 2012 at 3:58 pm

Very easy choice.

33 Debbie Kaufman May 19, 2012 at 4:40 pm

Chief: Oh yes, Mormons are very moral people. Very good people. Very lost people. Mormonism is a cult or did you forget that little detail?

Dwight is right in that they are racist in their theology. I know this from speaking to Mormons as well. They are not hard to find they are at every job and in every town.

This well may be the first Presidential election I do not vote in at all. My Christian convictions can not allow me to vote for either.

34 Debbie Kaufman May 19, 2012 at 4:45 pm

Speak for myself? I don’t think so and I will tell you why. As Christians we have strayed a long way from where we should be even in politics. We have taken a ends justifies the means approach in voting. It’s wrong. So I won’t speak for myself, I will try and get us as a denomination to see where we are wrong and could even possibly be in sin. Christ has gone away even in politics. We have to take the racist issue seriously. We have to take what Dwight and other black Southern Baptists are saying seriously or we are going to end up marginalizing them even more than we already do, and they are going to leave. I don’t want that. I hope others don’t want that either or that is going to say a lot on the “SBC used to be racist” statement.

35 Debbie Kaufman May 19, 2012 at 4:50 pm

Another reason to not vote for Obama would be his recent statement concerning same sex marriage. I do not have a problem with homosexuals working, having a business, and I will buy from that business if they have what I want at a price I can afford. I don’t even have a problem with homosexuals getting health care. They are first and foremost human beings and I have a duty as a Christian to want their comfort and health first.

I do not however agree with same sex marriage. It will be in all states before long and I cannot vote for someone who is for it. But neither can I vote for Romney. As you said he waffles, he has been groomed by Southern Baptists. He knows just what to say.

36 Frank L. May 19, 2012 at 7:13 pm

Debbie. Yes racism is much less a human evil than abortion.

Very few Americans die as a result of racism compared to the millions who die each year because of abortion.

37 Les May 19, 2012 at 7:28 pm

“Are you saying, just to be clear Frank, that racism is a lesser issue than abortion?”

I agree with Frank. By its nature, abortion ends a life. Murder. Racism is not inherently life ending, bad as it is. Abortion is worse by a very wide margin.

38 Debbie Kaufman May 19, 2012 at 9:26 pm

Gentlemen: In answer to your belief that abortion is far worse than racism, I am going to be blunt, so forgive me in advance. First I am not surprised that you say this, I suspected it from other conversations we have had on racism and I believe your thinking to be quite messed up. That is all I will say although I could site reasons both statistically and scripturally why I say that. It just shows that we have a long, long way to go and frankly I’m shaking my head as to why.

39 Debbie Kaufman May 19, 2012 at 9:28 pm

Frankly if I said anymore about it, I would have a worse lack of grace on the subject than I already have. It is a lesson I could learn from Dr. McKissic who has tons more grace than I could ever have concerning this subject.

40 Joe Blackmon May 19, 2012 at 1:09 pm

And you are giving Obama a pass based on race in spite of the facts.

Pot=kettle.

Romney not distancing himself from comments in his “bible” doesn’t mean he affirms them.

41 Frank L. May 19, 2012 at 3:11 pm

Joe and Dwight,

Perhaps we will see in the very near future an opportunity for Romney to “deny or affirm” his beliefs about those statements. At this point, the only think I’ve heard is a little bit of dancing around the issue.

You can bet this is going to be right at the core of the attacks on Romney.

42 Debbie Kaufman May 19, 2012 at 4:41 pm

Katie: Not that long ago? I think there is still racism in the SBC. I think there is a long way to go before we shed that.

43 John Wylie May 19, 2012 at 10:17 am

Dwight,

While I certainly appreciate your article I really must disagree with a few things. First of all, my concerns with President Obama cause me to be a multi issue voter not a single issue voter. I’ll not enumerate them here. Secondly, thanks to the sinful nature of man the choice has always been and always will be in this age the lesser of two evils.

44 Greg Harvey May 19, 2012 at 12:11 pm

I detect we’re afraid to cause a kerfuffle. That is the least Southern Baptist thing a Southern Baptist can do is to be afraid of kerfuffles.

Besides: the Mormons want Romney elected just as badly as any other people group desires to be represented by someone like them. They probably would cave on this if pressured by Romney. It isn’t like they haven’t given up doctrines in the past in order to be accepted nationally or something.

45 Frank L. May 19, 2012 at 3:12 pm

Greg,

Good point. Mormons are anything but “dogmatic” when it comes to doctrine and political expediency.

46 Dwight McKissic May 19, 2012 at 9:31 pm

Greg,

What kerfuffle are we afraid to cause?

Dwight

47 Greg Harvey May 19, 2012 at 10:51 pm

My concern is the general unwillingness–possibly bordering on fear of harm to Romney’s general election candidacy–to ask presumptive candidate Romney to clarify his views on his church’s stand. Now is the time to do that. We still have a convention where the GOP could make a change if it needed to over this. It could be done cordially.

I personally believe it could be done with a carefully chosen venue and a carefully constructed speech. As Bart alluded earlier (though he might not have INTENDED this part of the allusion), if any Republican Southern Baptist were running for the presidency–as opposed to a Jimmy Carter, a Bill Clinton, or an Al Gore–it is highly likely that this topic would get raised regarding the SBC’s sometimes uneven record on race.

48 Jack Wolford May 19, 2012 at 3:52 pm

Healthcare is still a big issue . Without it you can’t buy guns or Bibles or donate to any causes .

49 Job May 19, 2012 at 6:47 pm

Before dealing with who evangelicals should vote for and which party/political movements evangelicals should generally support, evangelicals should question the Biblical legitimacy of democracy to begin with. Democracy was originated by pagans (the Greeks), its current form was created by Enlightenment philosophers, and it is humanistic. At the very least, Bible-based Christians should consider the folly of believing that a mostly unregenerate populace is ever going to base their votes on the Bible.

If you decide that participating in mob rule by humanists is a good way to invest your time in general, it is true based on the Bible that non-Christians can make excellent leaders. Martin Luther went even further and stated that he would rather be ruled by a wise Muslim than by a foolish Christian. So, if you believe that a non-Christian will be a wise, honest, prudent leader, then vote for him.

But is that so in this case? Is there a bit of evidence that would make anyone believe that Obama or Romney have the character, integrity, experience, courage etc. to be good leaders? If so, provide it. Yes, plenty of Mormons are good people. So are plenty of Muslims. So are plenty of black liberation theologists. But judging them as individuals and not as members of groups, we know that Mitt Romney, Mormon, is a dishonest, bad person, and we also know that he will govern in much the same manner as George H. W. Bush and George W. Bush did. The black liberation theologist (or Muslim, it really doesn’t matter … personally I think that Obama has no use for any religion other than the worship of himself) … more of the same.

As for whether abortion is more evil than racism … who cares? They’re both evil. Instead of trying to pick one or the other, why not just say “None of the above”? And as for people being manipulated by Fox News, talk radio or whatever that Romney’s flaws need to be overlooked so that Romney can “save the country from Obama” … yeah like Bush II didn’t leave this country in a big mess, and like his father Bush I didn’t either. Bush I was so bad that he got Bill Clinton elected, and Bush II was so bad that Obama got elected by almost 200 electoral votes. So yeah, you just keep thinking that electing the guy who has already come out and stated that he is going to go back to Bush II’s economic and military/foreign policy agenda is going to yield better results.

If you are going to be a Christian voter, at least be different from a worldly voter. The worldly voter is constantly manipulated (by both the right and the left) into thinking that he has to choose between the lesser of two evils (when in reality it isn’t a choice because no matter who you pick the same guy – evil – still wins). The Christian voter should reject the manipulation – whether it comes from the Catholics and Jews on Fox News and who dominate neoconservatism generally, or from the sodomites/abortionists/Marxists on the left – and be willing to say “none of the above” when the situation calls for it.

And by the way … go talk to some Native Americans about whether abortion is worse than racism. Or to a Holocaust survivor (whether Jewish or gypsy). Or to a survivor of the Rwanda genocide where darker skinned blacks killed 800,000 lighter skinned ones. Or the Sudan situation where 4 million blacks were killed by Arabs (which involved race AND religion). The point: it doesn’t matter which is more evil because they are both evil. (I would also go ahead and argue that unjust war is just as evil as abortion, so electing the Bush-backed Romney so he can start another war to just like Bush I and Bush II did needs to be explained by the “pro-life” evangelicals … or is it that “pro-life” ends once the life exits the womb?) Of course, Democrats are every bit as capable of warmongering as the GOP – as Obama did when he attacked Libya, just like Clinton before him when he attacked Kosovo, and then there was Kennedy and Johnson with Viet Nam and Wilson getting us into World War I for absolutely no reason other than his “League of Nations” ideology (and for the record, Wilson was also a very racist Klan sympathizer, making him a racist warmonger) – but the Democrats never claimed to base their politics on the Bible to begin with.

50 Frank May 19, 2012 at 9:07 pm

“””Or the Sudan situation where 4 million blacks were killed “””

Thank you for proving my point. That’s less the number of babies slaughtered in just one quarter of the abortion industries year.

And . . . as long as you suggest talking to Sudanese victims, what do you think aborted babies might have to say–or do you not consider them fully human?

Also, we are talking about the race issue in America so all your red herrings should be canned.

I do believe that you have a point as to whether a “secular” leader can be a “good” leader in the context of leading a nation. However, I am sure you are aware of the numerous times the Bible speaks of the decline of the nation of Israel in the context of the moral character of the leader.

For me in this election there is one clear choice: there is NO clear choice.

51 Job May 20, 2012 at 4:55 pm

““””Or the Sudan situation where 4 million blacks were killed “””

Thank you for proving my point. That’s less the number of babies slaughtered in just one quarter of the abortion industries year.

Right, Frank. So the body count makes it “less evil”, right? And it is only a racial red herring to you because it doesn’t affect you. Sorry, but the measure of good and evil isn’t how it affects you and what you feel. It is about God and His Word. If it violates God and His Word, it is evil. If you are going by any other standard, you are making yourself God. If that is the route that you are going to choose, then go ahead and vote for Mormon Mitt Romney and help him in his quest to progress to godhood over his own planet.

Evil is evil. Period. You need to turn off those papists and Jews who run the right wing media (come to think of it they run the left wing media too, but that is another story) long enough to realize that.

52 Chief Katie May 19, 2012 at 7:34 pm

Debbie,

“Debbie KaufmanMay 19, 2012 at 4:40 pm
Chief: Oh yes, Mormons are very moral people. Very good people. Very lost people. Mormonism is a cult or did you forget that little detail?”

If you are going to try to use sarcasm, please get it right: “I could count on Mormon families to come through. I even watched hundreds of Mormon parents physically come to remove their children from school when they heard that the school district wanted to teach about tolerance to kids who have two daddies or two mommies. What a sight. Mormonism is a cult. No doubt in my mind.”

There it is. I said clearly that Mormonism is a cult. I know a good many Southern Baptists who count Catholicism as a cult. I’m not sure I’d go that far, but I stand on what I said about Mormons.

We should all speak for ourselves. I doubt seriously that Dwight speaks for all Southern Baptists because he does not speak for me, my son or my deceased husband who was black. I did not say that there was no racism in Southern Baptists churches. I said that it wasn’t too long ago they were TEACHING racism. There is a difference.

I respect your opinion Debbie, but I do not share it. The foray of Southern Baptists into politics hasn’t proved to be too fruitful. Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton. Yikes!

I respect Dwight, but I believe he has a blind eye towards BHO. Southern Baptists simply to not believe in the murder of children. He implies that racism is widespread in the SBC. I don’t believe that is true.

53 Christiane May 19, 2012 at 8:13 pm

the thing is, Pastor McKissic is in a position to understand, isn’t he, concerning any racial problems he himself has lived through, whether they were in association with the SBC or otherwise

he hasn’t ‘implied’ anything . . . he has spoken from the heart, and from experience, and if people can’t handle hearing what he has to say, at least respect him for trying to share what he knows to be true for himself . . .

54 Frank May 19, 2012 at 8:59 pm

Christiane,

Could you give me the number of the post that declared Dwight’s opinions are not respected? I’m assuming from your accusation there are numerous such posts, but somehow I have missed them.

Also, I have only shared, in regard to racism, what I know to be “true for myself.” I do not count my subjective opinion to carry anymore or anyless weight than Dwight’s or anyone else’s.

I don’t think Dwight is in any better position to understand the issue of racism than anyone else simply based upon his experience.

Thank you for pointing out the posts you refer to. I will certainly go back and reread them.

55 Christiane May 19, 2012 at 9:42 pm

FRANK,

you wrote this:
“I don’t think Dwight is in any better position to understand the issue of racism than anyone else simply based upon his experience. ”

I DO think Pastor McKissic is in a much better position to understand the issue of racism based on his own experiences as a black pastor in the South.
I think it gives him a gravitas that I can respect, because my own father, an immigrant who spoke no English when he came here, also lived through discrimination,
and I KNOW he learned a wisdom about what that can do,
both to those it harms as victims and to those whose hearts grow more hardened and callous in the process of discriminating against their victims.

I give Pastor McKissic a LOT of credit for speaking up.
In a way, your comment, which I quoted, stands on its own as an example to all of us of a certain way of thinking. I do not share that way of thinking. I cannot. And I must tell you that your opinion is very difficult for me to comprehend knowing what I know from the trials my own father lived through.

56 Frank L. May 20, 2012 at 3:33 am

Christianne,

Just as you do not have a clue about basic theology in regard to salvation, you have even less of a clue as to what may or may not be my personal experience with racism.

You are welcome to your opinion.

57 Christiane May 20, 2012 at 7:32 am

Frank L, are you the same person as ‘Frank’?
Do you post under other names as well?

58 Job May 20, 2012 at 4:57 pm

“Just as you do not have a clue about basic theology in regard to salvation”

Frank, with your attitude, and with your attempting to be the standard with regards to what is evil and what isn’t, it is making it seem as if you are the one who doesn’t have a basic clue about theology.

59 Matthew Newman May 19, 2012 at 10:20 pm

Here is Mitt Romney on race & the racial policies of the LDS Church:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pcw0woPX5VY
Just putting that here to see people’s opinion on his statement

60 Greg Harvey May 19, 2012 at 10:55 pm

That’s good.

61 Greg Harvey May 19, 2012 at 10:59 pm

BTW: it meets the “carefully chosen venue” requirement I suggested earlier and exceeds the “carefully chosen speech” bar by being an interview with a “MSM” news personality. It appears to have occurred on December 16, 2007 according to this transcript of what appears to be the full interview at a UC Santa Barbara website:

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=77749#axzz1vNJI3RI2

62 Dwight McKissic May 20, 2012 at 12:24 am

Matthew,

Thanks for this clip. Mr. Romney refuded to say that his church was wrong on these racist “scriptures” and therin lies the problem!!!!

Dwight

63 Dave Miller May 20, 2012 at 8:26 am

Yeah, he was clearly being a politician there, wasn’t he? He stated that he was not racist and did not believe in it, but was unwilling to challenge his church’s doctrine.

64 Dave Miller May 20, 2012 at 8:28 am

He should have been more direct.

65 Frank L. May 20, 2012 at 3:39 am

“”””although I could site reasons both statistically and scripturally why I say that. “””””

If you could, you would. I doubt very seriously you could find scriptural evidence for carving up a child in utero because that child was inconvenient in some way–which account for 99 per cent of all abortions.

I’ll take your comments on how much grace you show in light of your comment above demonstrating your selective civility–for those who agree with you.

66 Debbie Kaufman May 20, 2012 at 4:06 am

Frank: On this one you are right. I don’t have much tolerance for those who do not agree with me. I am sorry but I am being honest here. I do not have a lot of tolerance on this subject as I believe both are equally as heinous. People have lost their lives over racism and abortion. I don’t tolerate either action at all. And the Bible has a lot to say on both abortion and racism. I think you realize that.

67 Frank May 20, 2012 at 11:42 am

Actually, one of the troubling issues in the Bible is the fact that the New Testament does not outright condemn slavery.

However, the Bible does outright condemn murder. The only way you can consider 1.5 million babies being slaughtered today for convenience with racism in America is to put your head in the sand.

It is an indefensible postion from a person of any color. I’ll say it clearly so as not to be any confusion on where I stand: “abortion in America is the MOST heinous crime being committed against humanity, and nothing, including racism, even compares.”

I’d hate to think I would one day stand in front of a child that was ripped apart in her mother’s womb and say that racism was as heinous a crime against humanity as abortion. I’m not that strong of person.

68 Christiane May 20, 2012 at 12:27 pm

The Christian principles
of charity:
(“love your neighbor as yourself),
and the Golden Rule
(“Do unto others as you would have them to do unto you”)

as embraced by the New Testament writers are ultimately incompatible with chattel slavery,
even if, because of slavery’s deeply established role as a social institution, this point was not clearly understood by all at the time.

Over the centuries, Christians began to comprehend the fullness of sacred Scripture as to Christ’s teachings, as they relate not only to the reconciliation of men to God,
but also the need to reconcile men to one another within the bonds of Christ Himself.

69 Christiane May 20, 2012 at 10:38 pm

From sacred Scripture, we can know much about why the institution of slavery is wrong, it is an offense against the dignity of ALL persons formed in the image of God.

“God shows no partiality” since all people have the same dignity as creatures made in His image and likeness.
(Acts 10:34; Rom 2:11; Gal 2:6; Eph 6:9)

The Incarnation of the Son of God shows the equality of all people with regard to dignity:
“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus”
(Gal 3:28; cf. Rom 10:12; 1 Cor 12:13, Col 3:11).

‘Since something of the glory of God
shines on the face of every person,
the dignity of every person before God
is the basis of the dignity of man before other men . . . ‘

70 Debbie Kaufman May 20, 2012 at 2:46 pm

Frank: First name any President against abortion who has eradicated abortion in the last 40 years? I know of none. Not one supposed pro-Abortion President has done away with abortion. Electing an anti-abortion President no matter his religion or belief has never been the answer. People going out and rolling up their sleeves, giving the Gospel is working. Not politics.

The passages in scripture against both abortion and racism are numerous. People have died all around the world from sexism, racism and abortion. People have died Frank. Both now and in history. Blood was shed for those who had a different skin color other than white.

Christ was asked by the Pharisees what the greatest law was. What was Christ’s answer Frank. “Love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind. And your neighbor as yourself. ” Christ said this was the greatest commandment. Who is your neighbor Frank? That is the next question the Pharisees asked.

The passages about their being no Jew, Greek, etc. Being no respecter of persons. Christ’s ministry on this earth where he went to the Samaritan woman. A Samaritan and a woman, both were low in the Pharisee’s, in Jew’s eyes. Think black woman today. Mexican woman, Chinese woman, Islam woman.

No, I disagree, the Bible speaks strongly on both. Both are equally horrendous in God’s eyes. Sin of any sort is horrendous in God’s eyes. Abortion is your pet project. Sin is God’s. It should be ours.

71 Debbie Kaufman May 20, 2012 at 3:01 pm

That should be blood was shed from those who had another skin color other than white.

72 Les May 20, 2012 at 3:09 pm

Debbie, do you agree that there are some sins that are worse in God’s sight than others? Your answer here may make clear why we (Frank L., me and perhaps others) disagree on this issue.

Les

73 Debbie Kaufman May 20, 2012 at 3:26 pm

I’ll reply to that question Les by simply saying I do not think the ends justifies the means.

74 Les May 20, 2012 at 3:42 pm

Debbie, ok. But I do think the scriptures teach that some sins are more an abomination in God’s sight than others. I think it teaches that the sin attitude that brings forth the sin action is less an abomination. Shouting in unrighteous anger is sin. But the action from that anger resulting in the angry person taking the life of the other person is more serious. Both are sins. But God hates the murder more than the temporary attitude.

“But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.” (Matthew 5:22 ESV)

Woe to those who devise wickedness
and work evil on their beds!
When the morning dawns, they perform it,
because it is in the power of their hand.
(Micah 2:1 ESV)

But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire. Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.
(James 1:14-15 ESV)

Racism is a sinful attitude. It CAN and has led to murder. The murder is worse than the attitude that led to it.

Abortion is not an attitude, by definition. It is a murderous action.

Therefore, I and many others believe that, in light of scripture, the taking of the innocent life of a baby is a worse sin than the attitude of racism.

I commend Thomas Watson’s Mischief if Sin. Great work. Here is an excerpt:

A clear description of such people as shall have a greater share in hell torments.

“These shall receive greater damnation.” Mark 12:40

I had thought to have stopped my pen here—but supposing the largest discourses of this nature are little enough to divert wicked people from their excesses, I have one word more to add—that if sinners have not lost their reason, they would be persuaded to reflect a little and consider seriously the damnableness of their state after this life—and lay to heart this text dropped from our Savior’s own lips, “These shall receive greater damnation.”

I do not intend to meddle with the context—but shall take the words as they lie entirely in themselves. In the text there are three parts:

A fiery furnace—damnation.

The furnace heated hotter—greater damnation.

The people for whom this furnace is doubly heated—These shall receive.

Doctrine. The proposition I intend is this: There are some kinds of sinners who shall be more severely tormented in hell than others. “These shall receive greater damnation.”

And it goes on from there.

Les

75 Debbie Kaufman May 20, 2012 at 3:52 pm

I would disagree that between racism and abortion one is worse than the other. It is very clear to me in scripture that both are equally heinous. Think about the damage and murders that both cause even today. Now, if you want to minimize one over the other that is your freedom as an American. But we need to quit thinking of Christianity with an American mindset and start thinking more Biblical. Pet sins are not Biblical either. IOW sins that mean more to you personally than they should. Picking and choosing. Then to go to a solution that is the “lesser of the evils” really as me scratching my head. Where did Christ ever condone this? Where in the entire Bible is this ever condoned? I don’t see it. Evil is evil and we should never choose the lesser of evil.

76 Les May 20, 2012 at 4:00 pm

Debbie,

Abortion is not my pet project. I have no idea how you can know enough about me to say that. Let’s call abortion by another name for a moment rather than a medical term as it is commonly used. It is child murder!

Now contrast that with making someone sit at the back of the bus. Or even a church in Mississippi refusing a black person joining in corporate worship or joining the church.

Child murder and discrimination based on skin color. One leads to a mangled pile of dead tissue (arms, legs, crushed skull stopped heart) in an operating waste pan and the other leads to hurt feelings (true hurt feelings at that).

Debbie, there is no real comparison. But if you cannot be persuaded by the scriptures I offered and sound reasoning, well so be it.

Les

77 Debbie Kaufman May 20, 2012 at 6:30 pm

Les: You act as if I disagree with the Bible, yet I have given scripture as well. I do disagree with your interpretation of the scriptures you have given. Read them, they could easily apply to both racism and abortion and I believe they do. We are all created in God’s image. Even the black man, woman, child. I was actually going to use many of those scriptures to show this very thing, but time and space didn’t allow it and I knew you probably were aware of these passages and more I could give. So no, you haven’t changed my mind.

I’m really quite surprised that you as a Christian cannot see that both kill, both maime, both harm, both are murderous. Both are equally the same.

78 Les May 20, 2012 at 8:22 pm

Debbie, I did not mean to imply that you were not attempting to come at this from a biblical perspective. I’m sure that you are. I’m sorry if you thought that’s what I meant.

My whole point has nothing to do per se about whether to vote or which candidate to vote for. I’ve not stated anything on that.

My point was simply to try to show from scripture that all sins are not equal. I believe that I’ve done that. All sins are sin and heinous in God’s sight. That is true. But I believe that some sins carry greater consequences both here and in eternity.

Who one votes for in the election is another matter. It may even be related to this issue of greater sins. But the candidates was not my point.

Again, I’m sorry if I came across as thinking you were not trying to biblical.

Les

79 Frank May 20, 2012 at 10:10 pm

Debbie,

You keep talking about what the Bible says about the heinous nature of racism. Yet, you make no quote that justifies that statement–because you can’t.

We are talking about “America.” Very, very few people are being carved up legally and discarded in the trash as a result of skin color.

Your position is: “Don’t confuse me with the facts, my mind’s made up.” You do not have any facts to support that people in the United States are being slaughtered by the millions because of skin color.

The fact that that does happen on occasion, pales in comparison to a days work in the abortion industry.

You also continue to misquote me and attribute beliefs to me that I do not hold. You justify this, how?

Your position is so outrageous as to be nonsensical.

Again, you it is foolish for me to answer your posts because you attribute to me things I did not say and do not believe.

Your kind of grace and civility is a bit foreign to me.

80 Debbie Kaufman May 20, 2012 at 11:06 pm

Frank: I think Job answered you quite well. I can agree with a lot of what he has said. I believe I presented the facts and opinion. Job gave you some facts and opinion. You can choose to ignore them.

In my opinion, the fact is that neither party has a candidate that I as a Christian can vote for.

81 Joe Blackmon May 21, 2012 at 6:36 am

Les: You act as if I disagree with the Bible, yet I have given scripture as well.

Really? Where? I’ve just looked back over what you’ve written and in addition to my IQ dropping 15 points as a result I also didn’t notice even one quote of scripture. Saying “The Bible says so” is not quoting scripture.

82 Frank L. May 20, 2012 at 3:47 am

Dwight,

Somewhere in this twisted mass of opinions you referred to a post in which I was responding to someone else who suggested you are “giving a pass on Obama in regard to abortion.”

That issue arises from a thread months ago in which you openly defended Obama and made “no” reference to his pro-abortion views.

I can only go back a couple of years on Voices, but I do not recall you raising as much fuss over Obama and his abortion views as you have Romney and his “perceived” racist views.

By the way, I’ve not defended Romney and his connection to a cult with a openly racist book based upon an openly racist history. I don’t see how you can be a Mormon and hold the view that we are “no longer racist” but we embrace our racist book.

I’ve also stated clearly that I believe if one is to choose between Romney’s possible racist ideals and Obama’s stated abortion goals, then Romney is the clear choice.

That’s my view. I think I’ve been clear. Perhaps you would like to state our view and make it clear.

Again, this exchange is in regard to certain persons who feel racism equally as egregious as racism. That is not to say both are not deplorable. That’s the context of my post above.

83 Bruce H. May 20, 2012 at 7:29 am

Dwight,

You said, “But if there is no change by Election Day, I will vote for other persons on the ballot, but I will not cast a vote for President.”

If you are voting for any “politician” you are voting for someone that will alter their belief to get what they need. If you know one that wouldn’t do it, that is just one. Romney is faithful to his religion, but he is also faithful to his politics, just like Obama. You need to consider voting “against” Obama by voting “for” the other candidate. If nothing else, just vote straight party.

84 Job May 20, 2012 at 5:23 pm

Yes, the Bible does declare that some sins are worse than others. (See Westminster Shorter Catechism question 83, which has these proof texts: http://www.reformed.org/documents/WSC_fn.html#fn174)

My point is that while some sins are worse than others, that is no excuse for a Christian to use opposing one sin as an excuse to ignore the sin of another. Either way, you are siding with sin and against God. The idea that one honors God by siding with the lesser sin against the greater sin cannot be supported with the Bible.

And Ms. Kaufman is correct: at some point evangelicals have to stop pretending that the GOP is actually serious about ending abortion. They aren’t, and there isn’t a lick of evidence that they ever have been. Some individual GOPers may actually oppose abortion, like Tom Coburn. But the people who actually RUN the party, and hold the actual influence on who gets elected president, senator, or who gets on the Supreme Court? Get real. Those people are after power, not governing this nation in a Godly manner. Evangelicals who continue to deceive themselves into thinking otherwise after all this time, more than 30 years after Ronald Reagan put Sandra Day O’Connor and Anthony Kennedy on the bench – and this was after signing the nation’s most liberal abortion law while governor of California – have only themselves to blame for their willful self-deception.

Of course, this is not to say that you should go out and vote for the Democrats in response. Instead, I am saying that if one party tells the truth about being pro-abortion and the other lies about it, then there really is no difference between the two.

85 Frank May 20, 2012 at 10:00 pm

“””to use opposing one sin as an excuse to ignore the sin of another.”””

Who’s suggesting this?

86 Robert Vaughn May 20, 2012 at 7:56 pm

May I suggest another option for those of you who have said that you will not vote for President in 2012? Vote for a “third party” candidate (there will be more than three on most ballots). Well, you say, they have no chance of winning. Maybe so, but not voting is counted as apathy. At least voting for a third party is counted!

87 dr. james willingham May 21, 2012 at 12:10 am

It really sticks in my craw that the Republican Party gives us a Mormon to vote for; it just proves what I suspect, that one outfit controls both parties and uses them to work a dialectic on us in order to reduce us to despair and throwing in the towel. I did not vote for Obama because of his support for abortion, and I wanted to (due having spent years studying Black history). However, I can justify voting against any one who is aiding and abetting the putting to death of the innocent, the babes in the wombs, and, in this case, it is African American Babies, too, as well as others. I met a fellow from Texas lately, and He assured me he would vote for a yellow dog than do anything that would allow this terrible evil to continue.

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