Recently I opened a blogpost for the discussion of sports. It has been a great diversion – I love sports, probably too much. But that post has served two purposes. It gave us a chance to talk about sports while also keeping the sports trash-talk (something I consider a moral imperative) off the other posts. If you want to post about the Hawkeyes, the Yankees, or any of the lesser teams out there, you have a place to go.
There is a small group of bloggers who seem to come by Voices for no purpose other than to talk about the Conservative Resurgence that restored the SBC to its conservative roots after a few decades of theological drift. There are a half-dozen or so regular commenters who make everything about the CR. Whatever we write about, they tie it to the CR. There is no topic on which we can write that does not give evidence to them of the evils of the CR. I have repeatedly asked people to address the topic and ignore the CR, but no one seems to want to do that.
So, here it is – a moderate’s playground. I am going to give my view of the CR, then you can have at it. Whatever you want to say (within reason) about the CR and how evil and destructive it was is fine and dandy. Have your say without fear of my moderating (strangely appropriate word) interference.
The other side of this is simple. Since there is a CR playground out there, you will have the freedom to vent as you please, ON THIS POST. Unless it is germane to the intent of the author of the other post, or in a natural line with the discussion, I will expect you to keep your CR rants on this thread. We now have a playground on which to toss this ball. Let’s keep the game on this playground and not interfere with other discussions about other things.
The Cast
Not everyone will agree with my (admittedly simplistic) categorization here. But for the sake of my discussion here, I want to define my use of terms.
Conservatives: those who believe in the inerrancy of the Bible and ascribe to the fundamental doctrines of the Christian faith.
Conservatives believe that God exists eternally in three persons, that Jesus was God incarnate, that the Bible is truth without any mixture of error, that human nature is sinful and in rebellion against God, that Jesus died as the atoning sacrifice for our sins, that only those who repent of their sins and believe in Jesus will have any hope of having eternal life and that one day Jesus will return to earth in victory and judge the living and the dead.
Not only do we believe these doctrines, we believe that denominational employees and seminary professors should believe these doctrines.
Liberals: This is a tricky term, because it is such a pejorative term – one that has been used as an insult repeatedly and sometimes unfairly. In the greater scholarly world, SBC “liberals” will generally be considered conservatives. But in this discussion, I am using the term liberal to describe anyone who does not subscribe to the fundamental doctrines I enumerated above.
A liberal believes that the Bible may have historical, scientific or factual errors. A liberal may believe that there is hope for salvation in other religions, or that all people will eventually be saved. A liberal may balk at the concept of substitutionary atonement.
In short (and I know that this is a specific use of this word that does not fit the general use of the word) a liberal in the SBC is someone who does not ascribe to inerrancy or to one or more of the bedrock doctrines of the faith.
Moderates: Like the word liberal, this word has a variety of usages. I use it specifically in this way: a moderate was someone who, while believing in the fundamental doctrines of the faith (pretty much identical to the conservative in doctrine), did not support the conservative movement in the SBC, did not see the reality of existence of liberalism in the SBC, or did not believe that it was crucial to get the liberals out of the SBC.
In other words, moderates are conservatives in doctrine who did not see the need for the CR or did not support the means used to accomplish the CR. Dan Vestal, Winfred Moore and Richard Jackson were solid inerrantists. They did not agree with the conservative movement, but they were theological conservatives.
If you wish to quarrel with my definition, fine. There is no fixed or established definition of any of these terms. Just know that in this post, that is how I am using the terms.
The Drama
The conflict in the SBC during the CR years focused on two key issues.
- Does the SBC have a heritage as an inerrantist denomination or is the inerrancy movement a new issue?
The SBC has always championed the priesthood of believers and soul competency and has refused to subscribe to a formal creed. Moderates say this means that we were not a theologically-fixed denomination and that people have the freedom to believe a wide-range of doctrines and still be Baptist.
I disagree. Certainly, the term inerrancy was not used until more recently in the debate, but there is ample evidence that our Baptist forefathers regarded the Word of God as inerrant. Originally, the term “inspired” (a biblical term) was used to describe the Bible. But liberals changed the meaning of the term. Then the term “infallible” arose to describe a high view of Scripture. That term, too, was co-opted. So, inerrancy was coined – a term that is simple and direct. “No errors.” No wiggle-room there. Either you believe the Bible is 100% true or you don’t.
Nettles and Bush’s book “Baptists and the Bible” demonstrates the high view of scripture that was part and parcel of Baptist life for all of its existence. Hefley’s books give quotes that buttress that argument. Baptists have always had a certain theological foundation that we shared – a commitment to Scriptures as “truth without mixture of error” and a recognition of the final authority of Scripture on all matters.
Since that foundation was shared by all Baptists, it was not emphasized as much. But, when the foundation began to be washed away (the Toy controversy, the Elliott book serve as examples), Baptists felt the need to define our doctrinal foundation more carefully. The CR was the result of that.
In one sense, it can be maintained that the CR was a shift in the pattern of Baptist life. But it was one necessitated by growing liberalism’s attack at the theological roots of our denomination.
- Was there really a problem with liberalism?
I have had lengthy discussions with one person who simply denies that the SBC ever had liberals. Of course, that depends on your definition of liberal. Let me reword the question to take away the debate over the term.
“Were there people in our seminaries and denominational structures who did not believe the fundamental doctrines of the faith?”
I say there were.
I saw it firsthand. I attended a Baptist college and every one of my professors was a doctoral graduate from an SBC seminary. One of them (the most liberal of all) left our school and became a professor at Midwestern. Another became a leader in the CBF movement and eventually served as president of the Baptist Seminary that formed in Richmond. All of them went on to teach at other schools.
- They denied (and often ridiculed) every one of the major doctrines I mentioned above.
- One OT prof told us that there was no doubt that the author of Genesis clearly intended to teach a recent 6-day creation, but was simply wrong. He scoffed at the idea that God revealed the plans for the tabernacle and temple, as the scriptures state.
- Another OT prof started class by making it clear that there was no such thing as predictive prophecy. If any scripture purported to make a prophecy, it was written after the event and falsely attributed to a prior time.
- This same professor made this statement in Hebrew class. “Let’s face it, men. Jesus, Buddha, Mohammed, they are all just different flags under which God flies his name.”
- He also told me I needed to watch the move “Oh God” to get my theology straightened out.
- My NT professor disdained the doctrine of substitutionary atonement and ridiculed the idea that Satan was a real being.
- I can remember one professor, red-faced with both hands on my desk, shouting in my face (my girlfriend heard it in the financial aid office) “You mean you actually believe that?” That was pretty much the attitude toward us cursed fundamentalists. Openness to all beliefs seldom extends to conservative beliefs.
We also had a speaker come for “Spiritual Emphasis Week” – a well-known professor from Southern Seminary. I sat dumbfounded as he told us that Jesus did not intend to die. Jesus did not come to earth with the purpose of dying on the cross for our sins. He was the victim of political forces and some choices he made. His death was a tragic accident, not the eternal purpose of God.
I make the following assertions:
1) Liberalism existed in the SBC.
2) While not every seminary professor in every school was liberal (a more wild assertion I have heard made by some in my camp) there was a real theological problem in the SBC.
A Serious Problem!
I will say one more thing. It was a problem that needed to be dealt with. One of the common fictions I see in comments is that the SBC was healthy and thriving until the evil fundies took over and destroyed everything. But liberalism is a cancer that destroys religious organizations. There has yet be a denomination that has drifted into liberalism and prospered. The denial of the fundamental doctrines of the faith is a real problem that had to be dealt with. The SBC had a real and growing problem with liberalism and that problem had to be dealt with or we would follow the path of other mainline denominations into spiritual oblivion.
It can hardly be argued that the SBC is thriving today. But I believe we are way better off than we would be if the cancer of liberalism had been left to fester. The surgery may have been painful, but it was necessary.
The Play
The facts can hardly be denied. Starting in 1979, conservatives organized to elect presidents who shared our convictions and would appoint committees who shared those convictions. For 32 consecutive conventions, we have elected inerrantists as SBC President and all our entities now have conservative Boards of Trustees. There came a tipping point in the late 1980’s when the Boards of our entities had conservative majorities. Obviously, there was a lot of disruption and conflict at that point. The leadership of every one of our entities changed.
Them’s the facts, folks. Interpretation of those facts is obviously less clear. I would make the following points. I think the moderates operate in the realm of fantasy related to the SBC and the CR. There are also some false ideas that some conservatives seem to believe.
- It was not about theology, it was just a power play.
Obviously, it is undeniable that the CR was a “power play.” Since the Elliott book brought the creeping liberalism to the forefront, conservatives wanted to do something, but their concerns were ignored. Patterson studied the workings of the SBC and figured out a way to make a change. If we elected a president, he could make nominations to the Committee on Committees and they would make nominations to the convention. It was clearly a political situation.
But folks, the SBC is a political organization. We do not sit around and pray until God reveals his will. We take votes. Pressler and Patterson figured how to give conservatives the opportunity to register our concerns. Then, conservatives showed up in majorities to every convention for 32 straight years.
So, yes, the CR was a political power move. The majority of the SBC asserted its will over the minority. We said we want to be a denomination that prizes and enforces inerrancy in our entities.
So, here are the facts. Of course the CR was political. It had to be. But the motivation was a deep sense of concern for the theological future of our denomination. Were there power-hungry jerks within the conservative movement? Of course there were. As there were among the moderates. But the motivation for the movement was theological. The method was political but the motive was theological.
- The CR introduced politics into the SBC.
Nonsense. The idea that the smoke-filled back rooms (metaphorically at least) did not exist prior to 1979 is simply a fiction. The SBC was a large human institution and politics existed. The idea that prior to 1979 we eschewed politics and simply were led by God is an understandable but nonsensical fiction.
- The fundamentalists were mean.
I lived through the CR. There were mean conservatives, mean liberals and mean moderates Nasty words abounded. This is a common tactic. Democrats engage in dirty politics then complain about Republicans dirty politics. Republicans engage in dirty politics then compain about Democrats dirty politics
The idea that the moderates were kindly spoken in response to the wild attacks of the fundies is fiction Both sides engaged in extreme, mean, even ungodly conversation
- All’s fair in war
Again, nonsense. In the kingdom of God, the means to the end are as important as the end itself. Here is where I think many of my conservative friends err.
I support the aims of the CR and I am glad it took place. I do not support many of the actions that took place in the pursuit of the CR.
Political subterfuge is wrong even if it advances a worthy cause. I know that some of this took place (on both sides) but I think that some conservatives were blinded by what they saw as a righteous cause and justified actions on that basis.
- If you are not with us, you are against us.
I believe that the leaders of the SBC conservative movement made a serious (if understandable) mistake. After the election of Morris Chapman as SBC President (was that 1990?) it was clear that the battle was over. When WWII ended, we reached out to the nations we had defeated. We made friends of Germany and Japan.
I believe we should have reached out to some of the moderates and let them know that while they did not support our movement, there is a place in the SBC for them. “If you believe in the inerrancy of scriptures, there is a place in the SBC for you even if you did not support our political cause.”
Instead, we continued to ostracize those who had chosen the wrong horse in the race. I have no desire to open the doors of the SBC to those who deny the inerrancy of Scriptures or who undermine the fundamental doctrines of the faith. But I think we should reach out to people who disagreed with the CR but are theologically conservative.
What Say You?
Well, that’s where I stand. ON THIS COMMENT STREAM, you can have your say about the CR and its blessings or its evils. But, since I have provided this forum for the CR, please keep the discussions on this comment stream.
Unless a comment is vulgar or makes wild, offensive accusations, this is a wide-open forum for comments about the CR. But from this point on, comments about the CR and its leaders will be referred to this forum and will not populate other posts that are not about the CR.
Fair is fair guys.
Wait… So this post isnt to talk about sports?
That is absolutely the best and most accurate description of the CR that I have ever read. You are to be commended on your fair and honest rendition. I’m sure the liberals/moderates won’t like it but then they haven’t liked anything since Adrian Rogers was elected President.
Keep up the good work!
I believe we should have reached out to some of the moderates and let them know that while they did not support our movement, there is a place in the SBC for them. I respectfully disagree. If someone really believes in inerrancy, they won’t be able to tolerate someone who doesn’t. The moderates who believed in inerrancy not only tolerated those who didn’t but would still be more than willing to cooperate with them in ministry. I’m not just talking about the whack jobs in the CBF, I mean there are folks who are still in the SBC who would… Read more »
On this, we will have to disagree. I think there were people who genuinely loved the Lord and loved the Word who didn’t see the need for the CR. I disagree with them, but I think we should have made it clear that our concern was with doctrine, not conformity to a political movement.
Through the years and a lot of reflection, I have also come to this same position Dave about some people. Also the CR was never intended to become an auxiliary to GOP.
Why would I be surpised????
At the least, you are being more nice than usual—and I give you an “A” for “niceness.”
Thanks, Joe!!!!
Joe is always a teddy-bear.
Is it that they reject inerrancy or how inerrancy looks in our implementation?
I believe that the Bible is God’s inerrant word but I’ve come to disagree with how people have chosen to implement it through policies and doctrinal stances.
Dave,
You are a genius for coming up with this perpetual categorical post idea. Truly a Christian gentleman. Maybe you can start a singles playground post next. 🙂
It worked for sports. We are able to yak about the (sorry for using bad language) Crimson Tide and the Yankees as we please while not infecting every other post.
See if it works here.
Dave– You have just made about the best description of what is going on as I can imagine. In response I would classify myself as a “Moderate.” I attended SEBTS 1967-70. I had just come from Emory University where Thomas J.J. Altizer had hit the cover of Time Magazine with his “God Is Dead” theology. Now that was truely “liberal.” I was told SEBTS was “liberal.” I found it actually to be nothing more than “middle-of-the-road.” The reason I say this is that it was composed of a variety of Professors. Anyone calling Leo Green a “liberal” is a total… Read more »
Gene said, “So, this is my observation: as far a theological education goes, we were–and still are–at a college level rather than a true graduate level. There is too much fear that anyone might think for themself.” I found this to be the case. I attended Dallas Seminary and then transferred to SWBTS (in 1980). The difference in academic standards was amazing. I carried 20 hours one semester at SWBTS and still had time to train for my first marathon. I had two three-hour classes at DTS that were far more demanding than the entire 20 hours at SWBTS. By… Read more »
No Gene,
You are not a moderate. You are far to the left of people like Dilday, Vestal, Moore and Jackson.
You rank right up there with Ole John I Durham. You are a liberal.
Yep, its getting hot in here.
What are we supposed to do when it gets hot?
It ain’t hot Matt, But Hot’s comin’
Gene,
About the lack of education in our seminaries today; Who was it that did not know what Modalism was? You, right? Who was it that described the Trinity in about the same manner as would someone in the Oneness Pentecostal Movement? You right?
The seminaries, especially SEBTS needed drastic change. You are what would be known to lawyers as “Best Evidence” for that argument.
cb– I note how fast you go into attack mode on me. You want to place me in your category to define me as a “blazing liberal.” You want to call me an idiot because I don’t know the names of all the heresies. I could care less about a name for every heresy. Most are made up by argumentative men who want to sit all day and argue rather than get out and reach somebody for Christ—starting by acting like Christ in love and caring!!! Theological argument tends to be hot and never ending because those arguing can’t prove… Read more »
Gene, I have never put you into the “Blazing Liberal” category. That one is reserved for sharp intellectuals who deny “all” things Christian. In addition, Gene, you are the one who used the descriptive word “idiot” relating to yourself, not I. If I remember correctly, you hold a degree in Psychology. Therefore, you might understand that your use of the word “idiot” in reference to yourself might be interpreted as a parapraxis (Freudian Slip) by the casual observer. Of course, one who has observed you closely over a period of time, might be inclined to agree to the use of… Read more »
cb— Good swing, but a miss = “Strike 2!!!” 1) My Pshchology degree taught me about the ability of the human mind to use “defense mechanisms” to protect one from self-knowledge as well as allow them to “always be right.” You are full of too many “defense mechanisms”–the most used of which is “rationalization.” You appraoch “Reaction-Formation Psychosis.” Look um up if you don’t understand!!! 2) My quote from my Grandfather came from a wise man and excellent farmer in upstate SC. He was a dedicated Baptist and Church Treasurer until someone accused him of not being honest with the… Read more »
“You are what would be known to lawyers as “Best Evidence” for that argument.”
I see someone has been watching The Good Wife.
Darby, I have a “good wife” and I have been watching her for many years. I have learned much from her and she has kept me out of a lot of trouble, I can assure you. Yet, I must admit, I have spent a lot of time with lawyers (mostly prosecutors) and law enforcement types in a past life. In the case of Gene and “best evidence” that he is a liberal, one only has to review his comments (writings) over any period of time in the last 14 months in Blogtown and one will have the original (best) evidence… Read more »
Gene:
I did not know you went to Emory. My uncle went there. My dad went to Emory at Oxford after the war and then art school.
My grandparents lived on Superior Avenue in Decatur, and were long time members at First United Methodist Decatur. Did you ever run into Bev Jones, who was a minister there and later a Bishop in the United Methodist Church?
Louis– I was actually President of the BSU the year Thomas J.J. Altizer did his “God Is Dead” stuff. I lived on Sagewood Circle off E. Ponce de Leon between Clarkston and Stone Mountain. That was in the day you could ride a bicycle safely down the roads! Atlanta had just reached its first Million residents and well on the way to 2M. I was involved in a small church on Memorial Drive called Memorial Heights. I graduated Clarkston High School in 1963 with 63 seniors. It now graduates about 400 each year. I attended Decatur First Baptist while at… Read more »
Baptist ministers evil, Methodist ministers good, blah blah blah, so incredibly transparent and prejudicial.
Just the way I saw and experienced it, my brother!!!
The stories that I heard from my friends who attended seminary in the 1980s told me stories of how contentious of an atmosphere that the seminary took on because of the Conservative Resurgence. One friend relayed how professors began to ban tape recorders in their classrooms because students had stopped using them to take notes and began using them to use the professor’s own words against them as they reported them to ranking officials of the day. He told me that some students took aspects that would remind you of the Gestapo in their fervent desire to be the one… Read more »
Bill– You have accurately described it and I share your view of how awful it was. At the time I was representing Ministers Life Insurance Company and went to SEBTS every 3 months to talk with students about our cheap student entry level plan. I never revealed or brought up theology. Students were hair triggers on theology and I was there to ask health questions / fill out apps / get on down the road to a preacher with a church and income. I made $15 for a student policy–not enough to buy gas for the drive from Rocky Mount!… Read more »
Gene,
Truth just simply has a way of evading intersecting with your mind and proceeding out of your mouth during your waking hours when SEBTS is the subject matter, don’t it there Ole Buddy?
Let me ask you a question, if I may? Does truth pass through your mind when you dream about SEBTS during sleep or does it escape you there also?
cb–
Bite me!!!
You tell it like you saw it—but give me the courtesy to tell it like I saw it. I won’t insult your integrity as you have mine.
OK??????
Gene,
The problem with your request of me to “give you the courtesy to tell it like you saw it” is a simple, but most serious problem.
You see Gene, I know you are not telling the truth. That is the problem with the way you “tell it like you saw it.” You know it. I know it. God knows it. You are not telling the truth.
Bill,
My position will be different than that of Gene or several other fellows.
The level of theological education greatly improved at SEBTS, SBTS, and the other four SBC seminaries after a liberal faculty left their positions there and were replaced by a biblically and theologically sound group of men and women whose desire was to teach God called pastors, missionaries and ministry staff folks the Truth of God’s Word.
CB,
Forgive me for asking this because I’m sure you’ve stated it earlier, but at what point were you in seminary? How was your time there?
cb–
Kindly cite your time frame at SEBTS and SBTS. Did you attend both to validate your statement OR are you just going on the words of distorters of what was really going on???
bill and Gene,
I have attended three SBC seminaries and one non-SBC seminary. I also worked at one SBC seminary for a pretty good while.
My best experience in receiving theological education came from a SBC Bible College. Had it not been for that experience, I may have become a liberal like Gene, but with far better grades. 🙂
CB,
Did you witness or experience any of the things that I have had friends of mine mention while in Seminary during the 1980s? My intent wasn’t to impugn, I sincerely wanted to know when and where you attended seminary. I have no basis beyond what has been relayed to me because I left the ministry and decided against going on into seminary.
Thanks.
cb— Why in the world did you attend so many??? You make a broad statement that education greatly improved under the CR mandate. Please tell me what is the basis of your “unbiased judgement???” As far as I can tell SEBTS underwent probation after Dr. Lolley’s forced resignation due to serious violations of their standards. During that time (Drummond became President) the enrollment dropped drastically beacaus no student could be assured of graduating from a recognized school. My experience when Patterson became president was that most students were there to worship Paige Patterson as much or more than God, Himself.… Read more »
I’m currently attending an SBC seminary, NOBTS. I don’t know what it was like then, during the CR, but the seminary environment is changing again. Now the extensive use of extension centers, the inter-conservative competition of recruiting from other seminaries, the rapid development of technology, and a growing distrust of the SBC by young leaders is dramaticly changing seminary from what has been described in the past. My wife graduated from UNO’s ,top twenty in the nation graduate schoo, while I attended NOBTS. She use to laugh at my syllabi and tease about the strange academic work habits of my… Read more »
“growing distrust of the SBC by young leaders”
Boy, that’s for sure. Thanks for logging in.
I was at SWBTS at the very beginning of the CR so none of that was going on there at the time.
But there is no doubt that it was a contentious time. Who was doing what depends largely on whether you are talking to conservatives about the actions of moderate/liberals or to moderate/liberals about the actions of conservatives.
It all depends on your loosely used designation as “conservative or liberal.”
In my observations and knowledge we had, on a scale of 1-10—a 7 on “liberal” and a 10 on “conservative”–as one fellow pointed out, “if we get more conservative we will have to add about 10′ to the conservative end of the bench!!!!
I attended SWBTS from 1990 – 1994. I had a professor who cursed in class and who also told inappropriate jokes. My philosophy professor told us about his sermon titled, “God Our Mother.” Both of these professors were gradually and gently led out the door after Dr. Hemphill came.
That philosophy professor was probably inspired by St. Matthew’s Gospel:
“37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her young under her wings, but you were unwilling!”
The ‘motherliness’ of this description is a lyrical reference to God’s protectiveness, which we also find spoken about in the Psalms.
Strange how the beauty of Biblical language confuses some.
L’s,
No, that is not what “inspired” those guys. Had that been what had “inspired” them, that would have been easily understood and not brought about the grassroots rebellion that birthed the CR.
You see L’s, conservative scholars have never been confused about “biblical languages.”
What inspired those guys was Higher German Criticism that crept into the seminaries just before WWII.
So Spinoza is not your cup of tea. I tend to be ‘interested’ in different approaches to Scripture scholarship, but I am more trusting in the traditional ways of the Church’s scripture scholarship, particularly concerning canon formation. If the ‘higher German criticism’ had been around at the time of the Nicene Council, who knows what would have ended up in the canon. As it was, the Church chose that which had been in use widely throughout the early centers of the Church, particularly what had been read in ‘the Service of the Word’ portion of worship. There were other considerations… Read more »
“If the ‘higher German criticism’ had been around at the time of the Nicene Council, who knows what would have ended up in the canon.”
Nothing much L’s. Nothing much. It would have been a Paperback novel at best. 🙂
Again, I have some insights from my Ministers Life days as my clients included some SEBTS Administrators and Professors. I am not aware of any who used profanity or told dirty stories in classes when I was a student at that “corrupt” school. I know several had Blood Pressure issues from the stress they were under. Anything more remains confidential—except the conservative student who had V.D. from his time in Viet Nam. To hear the professors talk about dirty tricks was heart breaking. They had worked hard for a PhD and just wanted to use it. They were informed on… Read more »
Gene,
Some of those “spy students” were not so “little.” I knew a couple of them who were pretty good sized fellows. And if I remember correctly, their assessments were pretty accurate as to what was being taught in the classrooms of SEBTS, our most liberal seminary, at the time.
cb–
I played football and basketball with some of them in my time at SEBTS.
Strangely, the more conservative they were, the more often they would clip you or elbow you in the face to win!!! Our saying was “watch out for the sneaky rats and don’t let them get behind you!!!”
Gene,
I played some football with seminary guys. They were all a rough bunch, as it should have been. We were playing “football.” It is a contact sport.
As far as basketball is concerned, I would not know. I never joined in when the girls were playing their sport. 🙂
Oh Puleeze, CB. The Hegalian dialectic is all over evangelical circles. Even reformed! Most recently, a good example of it was with the recent Desiring God conference, if you were paying attention.
Oops, spelled Hegel wrong. The “Hegelian” Hegel. As in Georg Wilhelm Fredrich Hegel.
I’d like to know how my evangelical foundations are “Hegelian.” It is easy to through around names of philosophers, but having studied Hegel, I’m not sure how his atheistic, socialist views are “all over my theology.”
Please enlighten me.
A couple of thoughts about the academic rigor of SBC seminaries: (1) SBC seminaries have usually had very lenient admissions policies. Usually anybody with a 2.0 in college who feels called to ministry can get in. There is no GRE requirement. So there is a wide variety of students in terms of both aptitude and self-discipline. (2) Unlike many other graduate schools, SBC seminaries don’t require a particular undergraduate major or demonstration of mastery of a body of knowledge. Some SBC seminary students majored in religion in their undergraduate school and already know much of the seminary curriculum. Others have… Read more »
Jeff, I’m not sure where you went to seminary, but not all seminary degrees were as lenient as what you speak about. My degree at SWBTS was quite rigorous and demanding and someone coming in with a 2.0 would not have finished (in fact, I knew a few who did not).
Though we graduated from the same school, SSBN, I’m guessing we did so in different eras. Academic standards were not that high at the SWBTS I attended – at least not in comparison to the rigorous academics at Dallas.
Dave, I graduated in 1997 (I went to seminary the second time after GGBTS). If you are talking about the regular M.Div. without Biblical Languages, or the MACE, you are probably right. But, these are professional degrees and the purpose is to train “general practicioners” not theologians. However, the M.Div. with Biblical Languages gets a bit harder, especially depending on what professors you took — like Dr. Tolar, or Earl Ellis, for example. Then, the rigor was a bit more academically challenging. I was a M.A. in theology student and had a different tract altogether. I also had to maintain… Read more »
I was a M.A. in theology student and had a different tract altogether.
Well, there’s your problem…we used the Bible not tracts! 😉
Jeff–
I had extra respect for the men who had had a career / felt their call / forsook all to come to school / had a family to support as well as try to study. Some had 3-6 children, but sacrificed to fulfill their calling they had run from for many years.
I came right after college and was amazed how old the student body was! It is more proof that too many run from God until they run out of breath and give in. “The Hound of Heaven” poem comes to mind.
“I’d like to know how my evangelical foundations are “Hegelian.” It is easy to through around names of philosophers, but having studied Hegel, I’m not sure how his atheistic, socialist views are “all over my theology.” Please enlighten me.” It is about behavior WITHIN the theological views. The dialectic brings us such incorrect thinking as: Klouda’s firing was the right thing to do to be doctrinally sound. In other words, we had to sin to be theologically sound but the dialectic is used to make it appear to be Holy and not a sin. So, the horrible treatment of a… Read more »
In the Intro is mentioned that we had never had/used an official Creed. Around 1950 in a rather large Baptist church they did recite the Apostles Creed – often enough that I have some memorised. I’ve googled it and seen reference to many religions and a different use for me of the word “catholic”. Also had a Doxology, ” Praise God from whom all blessings flow —” sung by all as well as the term “Holy Ghost” which has been eliminated. These changes in practice is one reason I’m agreeable to the “enerincy of Scripture” in hopes that with all… Read more »
Jack–sleepy, but correct!!!
Anything Catholics were, Baptists wanted not to be. Most of us could tell you far more about what we weren’t than what we were! We were and still are “tied up in NOTS!”
We diverse worship-wise from high church formality with the Apostles Creed and other liturgy—to holy rolling with snakes being handled. Some churches had split chancels and knew what a Narthax was while others knew the way to the out house out back. That’s a very wide range—enough to fairly call us “ecumenical—yet drawn together to suppost Missions.”
Dave, I see some problems with this post: 1) As a young person who was born at the height of the CR I can’t really say where I fit in your categories since I didn’t participate in it or have first hand experience in the gossip and propaganda of the times. I’ve read a few books on the CR and written a short paper on it for a seminary class and I’ve got some personal experiences that I think allow me some insight into what happened. I’ve got opinions and would like to discuss them or flesh them out more… Read more »
Blake, thanks for dropping by. I am genuine about my beliefs concerning the CR. But you are right about this post. I am tired of every single post on this blog being steered toward recycling the same arguments and bitternesses. I recently asked people to stop bringing the CR up so much and got a lot of flak. So, I thought I would open this up. IN the future, when people log in comments about the CR on other posts, I will send them way. I do not have the hubris to think that my six pages of text will… Read more »
I sympathize with you on not wanting to deal with this kind of trolling and I sense you’re honest in your desire to do the issue justice and not push it off out of contempt. Do you think you would be interested some time in participating in a regulated selectively invited group to discuss specific issues of the CR some time? I understand if not. Thanks.
I would be interested.
Dave– I bet you had a good night’s rest hoping the CR flame throwers would all land here. It’s a great idea and—so far I like what I see = mostly civil discussion. I think Blake is expecting some kind of difinitive work from this blog which it never is. I know what he is saying about books on the subject. I have read most of them–including Pressler’s “Hill To Die On.” As I understand it, this is simply a landing place so CR discussion is minimized on your other worthy subjects. That is a golden dream as us modern… Read more »
“In the kingdom of God, the means to the end are as important as the end itself. ”
BRAVO, DAVID
You know the teaching of the Book of Romans 3:8 . . . .
The Royal Law of Christ prevents the use of evil by Christian people in their actions towards anyone, for any purpose.
Unless, of course, they’re in the womb. Then you can slice them up into little bitty pieces so that they can be extracted from their mother more easily.
Bravo Joe and well done.
For how can anyone say the “Royal Law of Christ prevents the use of evil by Christian people in their actions towards anyone, for any purpose,” yet support abortion for any reason?
It is a moral contradiction, is it not?
Hi C.B.
There is an exception. Do you know what it is ?
I didn’t know you advocated abortion, JOE.
When did you change your mind? Seems to me, I recall that you opposed it in the past, at least since the time it became a politically-savy thing for SOME non-Catholic Christians to do that.
Unless, of course . . . you were speaking facetiously. ?
I was mocking your claim that it is wrong to cause harm while AGRESSIVELY maintaining the right of a woman to have an abortion. So it wasn’t so much speaking facetiously as it was making fun of you and your beliefs.
Christiane, he is being sarcastic/ironic. I’d wager my spleen that Joe is not a supporter of abortion rights. (Just for the record, I don’t actually gamble – I’m a good, Baptist boy).
You know how I worry about him, David.
Dave,
I will gamble on a “sure shot” if its me holding the rifle. 🙂
Gene:
Did you see my reply above regarding Emory and Decatur?
Just got back in from the funeral of Dr. Thomas Bland today in Raleigh. Answer is above. For those who do not know him, Dr. Bland was an example of the kind of Professor I had at SEBTS. Well educated / able to spot pretension when he saw it / gave himself not only to the school and students, but was totally active in his local church. Until his obituary I had no idea how many new church starts he generated. When a new mission church was being planned, he was the “go to” person to come in for the… Read more »
Can anyone accurately speak on the two Baptist Press employees who were fired? From what I understand they took a big hit both personally and financially for attempting to be accurate in the reporting of the CR. True or false?
Debbie,
I know they hounded me at the BSSB when I presented the Sanctity of Human Life motion.
One thing I know for sure is that they were very much against my motion and my position against abortion on demand. That much I know.
It is also my opinion, based upon personal experience with them as a BSSB trustee that “accurate reporting” was not always their goal.
Of course, that is just one opinion. There were and are many.
From what I’ve read from accounts on both sides of the aisle, I’ve come to the conclusion of this: The Southern Baptist Convention decided it was time to change the leadership and direction of the Baptist Press. However, the methods to enable and facilitate this change was done in about the worst way that it could possibly be done. What should have just been a simple “we’ll help you out the door” became the great sensational story of legend. I’m not saying it was right or wrong, I’m saying that it was handled poorly. Then again, it would seem that… Read more »
Al Shakleford was one. I forget the other. Both editors were heading Baptist Press when CR took over. They refused politely to do other than free press reporting of Baptist news and events just like we had always wanted pre-1979. The CR boys wanted a propaganda piece and clearly got it with a vengeance and no regard to giving the adequate time for a smooth transition. As I recall they got a 1 month separation package after an executive session behind closed doors “in the spirit of Christian love and compassion.” They found other work and started new things at… Read more »
Also Bill Moyer did a report on the CR with interviews with Presley, Dilday and others. How accurate was this report? It is no longer available on line unfortunately.
There is no question that the spin in Moyer’s article was against the CR. I don’t know if any of the facts were wrong, but his interpretation of them leaned left.
TOTALLY!!!!
It is Moyers with an “s”. He works with PBS. He is headquartered in NY and we have had several interesting adventures together.
He was a primary adviser to the LBJ administration since they were both from Texas. He was their religious liaison and consultant on ethics and morality issues.
My dad was a friend of his at SWBTS. Said he was very conservative. Seems like politics corrupted him!
Elmer Towns describes the Conservative Resurgence:
In the last twenty-five years Southern Baptists have fought the battle of perceived liberalism within its ranks and bureaucracy, and most would agree that the fundamentalists have won that battle. Beginning with the election of Adrian Rogers in 1979, one self-identified fundamentalist after another has become president of the Southern Baptist Convention, and in turn they have controlled the nomination and election process of the various boards and seminaries. In due time, boards mandated that liberal-leaning individuals were not nominated to positions, and fundamentalists turned the various boards and committees toward fundamentalism.
http://blog.founders.org/2008/05/elmer-towns-on-conservative-resurgence.html
Debbie, I didn’t check, but did you change email or something. You got caught in the moderation net and I did not put you there. Not sure why your comments landed in moderation, unless you changed something.
First time commenters always land in moderation – something in the programming. But you are hardly a newbie around here.
Not sure what the deal is.
Oh yes. I have two emails and the wrong one got on there. Thank you. I changed it.
I’ve made it a rule to not really trust anything coming out of Liberty University.
Just a personal opinion.
One with which I strongly disagree, Bill. Liberty is a great Christian school for young people.
If your criticism relates to a certain person who opened a “Caner” worms there, he is no longer in charge, and is not even teaching classes. Love him or hate him, he is not really a representative of Liberty anymore.
Actually, I just was never a fan of Jerry Falwell. Again, this is just a personal opinion and it really doesn’t jive with this thread. You can delete my comment stream since it isn’t germane to the thread.
Totally accurate.
The definition of “conservative” went beyond any classical definition to include only those who toed the mark / had proven themselves by doing any dirty deed dispatched to them / having their credentials from Criswell Bible College.
Paige Patterson could sit with his righteous look while minions of “murderers of reputation” did his really dirty work for him. It reminds me of Al Capone going to church and weddings in very public places while machine guns blazed on the back streets of Chicago. “He knew nothing aboudit!!”
Under Section: “The fundamentalists were mean”, there is this quote: “Both sides engaged in extreme, mean, even ungodly conversation.” David, there was at least one woman who suffered profound injustice. Her words about her feelings in the following site do NOT express any ungodly-ness in my opinion: http://kerussocharis.blogspot.com/2008/03/email-from-dr-klouda-revealing-her.html Something to think about for the future: “But folks, the SBC is a political organization. We do not sit around and pray until God reveals his will. ” Perhaps people should have prayed and then waited upon the Lord. If the SBC WAS just a political organization, the courts should have been… Read more »
The only link between Klouda and the CR is the presence of Paige Patterson in both. Paige was the man who figured out the way that conservatives could change the convention’s direction. He was certainly a prominent figure in the CR. But to blame the CR for Paige Patterson’s actions with Klouda would be like blaming the whole Catholic church for the actions of one priest. Many of us who strongly supported the CR thought the Klouda action was ill-advised. So, the attempt to link the two, as if the Klouda matter represented the intent of the CR is simply… Read more »
Thing is, my whole Church IS penitent, as a unified Church,
about what some priests have done, mainly because there were people who dropped the ball and didn’t hold those priests accountable, and WORSE, allowed them to transfer to new positions, where abuse continued. The suffering that resulted is a matter of great sadness for all the members of my Church together. When these people suffer, we all suffer.
Many of us felt sorry for Klouda. Of course, differing convictions on the application of biblical teachings on women in ministry are not quite the same as molestation.
I think when they sit down to write Paige Patterson’s legacy, we’re going to find that he was just in too many places where decisions needed to be made and he either was the only one to make them because no one else would or he sought out the opportunities to make them because they would create a legacy. I think that whether or not you like Paige Patterson, and I’m not a real big fan, you are going to have to admit that he did do a lot for the Southern Baptist Convention. Only God and Paige know whether… Read more »
Remember: Judge Pressler was a highly influential Federal Judge and they do have meetings bringing together judges from across the country.
Never tell me “Lady Justice is blind.” It sounds good and inspirational, but we all know the power of the court. If they don’t want to deal with justice in religious organizations, they just cite “separation of church and state” to stay out of it.
In the Klouda case—not reviewing = letting Paige Patterson win.
Gene,
Are you accusing Judge Pressler of misconduct in the Klouda case?
If so, maybe you need to back up and take a deep breath. Such an accusation can carry serious consequences. Friendly word of advice there. You need to take it.
Judge Pressler was Pressler = very opinionated / not an SBC Baptist / a conservative of all conservatives.
Beyond that, I commented and was moderated for good reason.
In years to come more truth will come out. Until then, I leave it as I stated above.
Dave,
Great idea for a post!
Kinda funny how there isn’t much CR talk when it’s set up… Like you said, it seems like people would rather steer non-CR posts toward it!
People will no longer be allowed to steer non-CR posts in this direction. Ain’t happening!
I have no desire to discuss the CR, because the name implies something that did not happen. Now put up a post for discussing the Fundamentalist Takeover and I would be glad to partake.
This is the only post that is going up on this subject, Robert.
Robert, really?
You don’t want to discuss the CR unless the person who starts the discussion agrees with your feelings about it in advance?
Dave started an interesting forum.
Does it make sense for you to come on here to announce that you are not playing because of the way the post was written?
I hope you will reconsider. I bet we all could learn something from listening to you.
I do not wish to discuss it because it did not exist, at least in the incarnation that many in here discuss. It does not involve a matter of my feelings or Dave’s feelings. It involves looknig at a situation and disregarding very pertinent facts to make something look like you want it to. I do not disagree that there were some of the issues that the CR group believes created the need for this movement, although nowhere near the frequency with which they say. That being said, I choose to look at other facts in evidence (lot’s of evidence)… Read more »
Either way–it happened and it happened because there were people, a lot of people, who were unfaithful to the word of God and had no business making a living off the tithes and offereings of people who were faithful to God’s word. Their arrogance to say among themselves “God’s word contains errors” and then to go pat Joe Pew-Sitter on the head and say “Oh we beleive what you believe” was sufficient reason for them to be drummed out of the SBC. Then you had those that disagreed with them but were willing to allow them to stay in the… Read more »
Ahhh, the old “The end justifies the means” argument. As long as we have decided in our own mind that we are more righteous than anyone else, God will bless our efforts however sinful they may be. And for the record, I would wholeheartedly agree that anyone that says God’s word is full of errors needs to be removed from any organization that I am part of. So whata ya say Joe? Grab your rifle and meet me at the church. I hear there are some people there that don’t believe in a literal vigin birth. Blowing a hole in… Read more »
“”Blowing a hole in their skull””
I look for this thread to become a sewer very quickly. I guess Robert believes that the parts of the Bible that talk about wholesome speech are the “errant” parts and can be disregarded along with all the other admonitions moderates don’t like.
It does once again remind me why there needed to be a “house cleaning.”
I just know this. I have a nephew that graduated from SBTS and my youth pastor came from there. Had they gone to that school in the 1960’s or 70’s, the outcome might have been very different. They are both passionate, theologically-grounded young Christian leaders.
I am thankful for the CR if for no other reason than that it changed the theological nature of SBTS, SEBTS and MWBTS.
SWBTS wasn’t completely without its problems, but it was perhaps not as severe.
Our SBC leadership are masters at making murder just seem like an “accident.” Actually W.A. Criswell was the coach who was unable to bring about drastic change due to the Committee on Committees not becoming his lap dogs. In the process he discovered the Achilles Heel of SBC parlance. He then went back home and began to plan and conspire. It took some 20 years of lead up conspiring to bring it off. Patterson and Pressler were all over the place in Texas and surrounding states to scatter seeds of discord among naive church members who wanted to hurt somebody… Read more »
Reading this post convinces me that you are delusional, Gene. Hatred has rotted your soul which is a shame, because in some of your more lucid moments, you are someone I could possibly even learn to enjoy hearing from. Talking about “murder” and “conspiracy” makes you look like a fool. Also, you have such a disdain for people who didn’t and don’t see things your way. You think they are naive or worse. A person couldn’t possibly be a conservative because they believe it is a position that most honors God and lines up with the truth. You are the… Read more »
Gene, I missed this statement last night from you while sifting through your skewered commentary on all things CR. “Patterson and Pressler were all over the place in Texas and surrounding states to scatter seeds of discord among naive church members who wanted to hurt somebody since they couldn’t kill LBJ for helping blacks!!” Gene, this statement is not only is not only false; It is just plain stupid. Not only is it stupid, it is the perfect revelation that within you lives a putrid heart. This is the kind of statement that after becoming fully aware, in the presence… Read more »
“Did two people meet at a local restaurant conspire to take over the convention by manipulating the office of president of the convention in a way that would not be noticed until it was too late to do anything about it?”
No. That is really not what happened. That is the legend. That is the perception of many as to what happened. But it is really not what happened.
Cb,
It is not legend, it is recorded fact. Even Pressler and Patterson recount the meeting in their writings, although they don’t admit to what went on wholeheartedly. It was planned manipulation plain and simple.
SSBN,
Please read and understand comments before you reply. In the post to Joe I admit that I support inerrancy. My remark about blowing a hole in someones head was a sarcastic way to show that the fundamentalist belief that the ends justify the means is ridiculous.
Robert,
Long before there was a meeting at a cafe in New Orleans, there were men who saw the problem, spoke of the problem and began to address the problem with like-minded Southern Baptists.
Read more. Read older.
Robert, Never did a CR personality say “the ends justify the means.” Never was any strategy developed with such a concept as its justification. That never happened. Did CR personalities commit wrongful acts during the years in question? Of course. Every CR personality was plagued with the same inherent nature as is within you. All were sinful men, who for whatever reason, at times fell to the sinful nature within them. Nonetheless, I was never in a meeting wherein anyone stood up and said anything resembling, “Our goal justifies any action necessary to achieve it.” That kind of thing just… Read more »
CB, I see your points. And the “ends justify the means” is more pointed to my recourse with Joe. I don’t think anyone stood up in the beginning and decided to do un Godly things to reach a goal. Did some things happen. Yes. And I think I know you enough to say that you would concede that when given evidence. Joe just always seems to jump in and say that it doesn’t matter how it was done, just that it was done. There are many times when my pastor and I have looked back and said, ” Boy, that… Read more »
Robert, I would be the lsat person to say there were not sinful things done “in the name of the CR.” That would be gross hypocrisy on my part. BTW, “taking over the presidency” was only the introductory step. The goal was to replace liberal or “company man” trustees with conservative men and women. That is the basic reason the CR took so long. One thing that always amazed me though, was the number of guys who claimed to be conservative guys who would stand and when they actually became trustees, they crawfished. It would surprise you to know the… Read more »
CB,
That couldn’t have happened. Why I can’t think of anyone, especially not at the IMB (completely hypothetical), who would claim to be conservative and after having been apponted as a trustee show their true colors to be a left wing nut job. 😉
I think your ending statement is right on target!!!
Well Robert,
JUst go ahead and call it the Fundamentalists Takeover and fire away. You will not be the first to call it such. Nor, I am positive, will you be the last.
Robert— You are just being plain spoken and honest. The word-smiths want to soften it. Has anyone noticed how Criswell was on Falwell’s Board and vice versus–along with Pat Robertson–along with Bob Jones–etc.? Any wider coalition can only be seen in some of my photos of pictures on the walls of Paige Patterson’s office at SEBTS—George H.W. Bush was there along with Ronald Reagan. Why was Francis Schaffer’s and others names on a plaque there honoring brother Patterson??? We sure don’t mix politics and religion in a country which withholds court cases on “separation of church and state”–do we??? A… Read more »
Christiane: The decision of SWBTS not to give Dr. Klouda tenure as a Hebrew professor or not to renew her contract to teach Hebrew was not part of the CR. That was an individual employment decision that occurred in 2006 (or thereabouts), 15 years after the CR ended. And Dr. Klouda is supportive of the concept of a confessional theological institution, which the moderates did not agree with. She was not “anti-CR” or a concern or target of the CR. I know that SWBTS’s decision not to grant Dr. Klouda tenure or to extend her contract as a professor of… Read more »
Good point.
Louis,
Sheri Klouda’s situation bothered me also. Nonetheless, you are right. The action/ actions taken relating to her were not during the CR.
Actually, I personally do not believe it would have been possible for what happened to her to have happened during the CR years. Of course, that again, is just my opinion.
CB, The CR is not over by a long shot. They just gave it a new name to rally the troops again.
Lydia,
See my comment to Bill.
Let me add, The reason I do not believe that the Klouda termination would have happened during the days of the CR is because there were some very strong personalities involved back then who would have “bucked” on it greatly. Of course, we will never really know for sure, but for sure there would have been some very strong opposition. And in all probability, it would have been strong enough to have stopped it.
However, the Conservative Resurgence put the players in place to make these judgment calls. This is my point that I initially tried to relay to Dave, that the Conservative Resurgence paints much of what we are seeing done today.
Another case in point: BFM2K and the actions taken after the passing of this…
Bill,
I think it might be that “new players” (or maybe some “old players” with new “paint” in their buckets) paint much of what we are seeing today. I think we are in a whole new ball game now. Maybe we just don’t have a “nickname” for it yet. Maybe the references to the CR for what is taking place today will not stand up to strong scrutiny any longer.
CB,
I see your point but the point I’m trying to make is that people making decisions, i.e. in this case with Sheri Klouda, were people either directly involved in the Conservative Resurgence or were direct “heir apparents” to the leaders of the Conservative Resurgence.
Again, the Conservative Resurgence is still having a ripple effect fifteen, twenty years later is my overarching point that I tried to relay to Dave.
By the way, hope you’re having a good day.
Bill,
Thanks for wishing me to have a good day. I trust you to have the same.
“The decision of SWBTS not to give Dr. Klouda tenure as a Hebrew professor or not to renew her contract to teach Hebrew was not part of the CR.” No? It was the logical result of the CR mindset… 15 years later. And that is the problem. The CR was not about inerrancy but about power. Inerrancy was the marketing slogan. You don’t level the forest because a few trees are diseased. And from what we have seen is that power corrupts. The young folks are right not to trust the SBC. If the CR had been seriously about inerrancy,… Read more »
Lydia,
We did not level the “forest.” The “forest” removed some trees that did not bear “like fruit.”
The cow manure is getting might deep here, cb!!
“If the CR had been seriously about inerrancy, we would see very humble, lowly servants as our leaders. Because they would actually believe what the scriptures teach and live it out in life.”
Lydia,
You may be painting with a very broad brush there. I would certainly not number myself among them, but I know there are many “humble servants” leading local Southern Baptist churches out here among the rank and file.
And their “leadership” is just as important in real SBC life as that of any agency head and probably more so.
No. I know several people who were CR supporters who did not agree with that action.
In fact, the CR steered clear of the women’s issue altogether, intentionally.
I think that most CR supporters, but not all, do not believe in ordaining women, but that was not an issue in the CR.
The CR leaders worked hard to make the CR about the nature of Scripture.
This is not historically acccurate. During the peak of the CR, in 1984, the SBC passed a resolution against women pastors.
http://www.sbc.net/resolutions/amResolution.asp?ID=1088
Louis,
Jeff beat me to it, the PC of 1984 was a pretty big deal in the CR in relation to women in the pastorate.
Good job, guys. I had forgotten that completely. But I do not remember Pressler, Patterson or any of the CR candidates mentioning the women’s issue. Pressler, in fact, specifically said, when asked about that that the issue in the SBC was not about women but the nature of scripture.
I do agree that the there is a relationship, obviously as shown by the resolution, but it was not a key component.
Flimsy EXCUSE = they NEVER STOP!!!
It reminds me of a 3-5 year old always wanting to bluff his parents to get his way. The only solution is a serious paddling of the back side. A nerve runs directly from the behind to the middle of the brain. When properly tickled to bring real tears to real hateful eyes, a good father’s job is done—
BUT, just wait until a month from now and see if it is not needed again.
I’m glad people ‘were bothered’.
That gives me a lot of hope for the future.
I’m SURE that there was a connection to a new emphasis on women’s roles in the Church that had something to do with the decision that caused so much harm.
IF the CR was a move to enforce ‘conservative’ doctrines, and that new emphasis was a PART of those doctrines, then you have a connection.
That is how I see it.
L’s,
By that reasoning, it could be argued that the present Roman Catholic Church has a connectional mind-set still in force from the days of the Inquisition.
The CR was a move to have doctrines to begin with.
Moderates have formed their own fellowship, the CBF.
The CBF has no doctrinal confession.
That’s the difference between the conservatives and the moderates. It’s not always whether they believed in doctrine (they often agreed), but whether doctrine was going to be the tie the bound the convention together or Baptist history and programming.
The moderates were for rallying around Baptist history and programming, and the conservatives were for rallying around a common theological confession.
“The moderates were for rallying around Baptist history and programming, and the conservatives were for rallying around a common theological confession.”
That is an interesting comment, Louis.
But were there treasured Baptist traditional historical distinctives that had to be set aside in order to ‘rally around’ a creed?
Autonomy, baby, AUTONOMY!!!! Blood was literally shed over it by the forefathers of this country as well as our democratically-based form of being Baptist Christians.
Gene,
I always thought the basis for autonomy was from Scripture.
No Baptist distinctive had to be set aside to follow the theology that has been generally agreed upon by Southern Baptists since 1845.
What Baptists had to do was set aside some moderate denominational leadership, not Baptist distinctives.
The moderates did not want to require that seminary professors and other denominational employees agree with the theological confession that had already been adopted by the Convention.
Again, if you want to see the difference, look at the fellowship founded by the moderates. It has no theological confession at all. That is by design, not be accident.
Louis, then what do you call Richard Land’s Values Campaign in 2004 that went straight to Ronnie Floyd’s church when it left Nashville, supported by CP dollars dancin around loopholes in the TAX Code to support the reelection of President Bush.
I guess my question is: Is Karl Rove a Baptist Distinctive???
The mantra of “we shall have no confessional / creedal statement, but rally around our missionaries is the true heart of SBC history.”
Boys, it’s all about missions and CR made it all about theology.
Can any of you tell me what happened to Bold Mission Thrust immediately after the CR Fundamentalist Takeover?????
You are right Gene. It was all about theology.
Man–I’m all excited that you agree with me on SOMETHING!!
Well, considering that it was your side who would have been spreading their false gospel though the Bold Mission Thrust, I am VERY glad that it failed. Rather than preach the gospel as found in scripture, moderates teach: *that people from other religions can be saved by Jesus Christ without them realizing that He is the one saving them. *that the idea that sex is only sanctioned by God between one man and one woman in the bonds of marriage is outdated and prejudicial. *that the Bible “contains” the word of God rather that it IS the word of God.… Read more »
Joe–once again, your record is stuck and getting old!!!
I seldom comment on the CR because it was not on my radar when it happened, and I have no firsthand knowledge of it. So really all I know about it is from following the SBC blogosphere. I know it is hotly contested on both sides. My overall impression is that people I trust have told me that despite the abuses during the CR, and some bad directions of the SBC since the CR, that it really was necessary (or that something had to be done). My other impression is that many on both sides just can’t leave it alone.… Read more »
“I really don’t think you can tie the Klouda situation to the CR because it is clear that many people who supported the CR did not support her firing. ”
Is it ‘clear’ because they spoke up at the time?
I think we saw a little metamorphosis with some people during the Klouda affair. At first, she was a sympathetic figure, with many. Then, when she decided to sue, she became the enemy. Then (and this really bugged me) when she lost, many who vilified her became sympathetic again. It was rather sickening. To answer your question, I don’t know who spoke for her at the time. I know Wade Burleson championed her cause, which no doubt caused many to take the opposite side. I remember CB saying Patterson was wrong to remove her. Most of those whom we call… Read more »
“The higher the monkey climbs the tree—the more you see his tail!”
She was not fired.
It is important to speak accurately about that.
Louis, was her position as a Hebrew professor taken away from her?
No.
Her 1 year contract expired (ran out) and was not renewed. She was not recommended for or granted tenure by the institution.
She was offered another job at the school, but she declined to take that, and she looked for and found a job at Taylor University teaching Hebrew, which is a very fine school.
Louis: The position offered to her was a token position. She was fired. The position offered to her was to make it look as if she quit, the position was well below her expertise and the salary was much lower, but she was indeed fired. Let’s be honest here.
Debbie was there Louis, duh. 😉
Brandon: As a matter of fact I followed this story from the beginning to end and had in my hands the official court transcript so yes in a way you could say I was there.
Louis,
I disagree with the decision to not grant her tenure. However, no one with any sense who has actually looked at the evidence (i.e. something other than blogs) would claim that she was, as Mr. Slate used to tell Fred Flintstone, F-R-I-E-D Fired!!!
I am simply going by the court record. Nowhere in her Complaint does it say, and the court did not recognize that she was fired.
Debbie, I know that the position she was offered was different and not appealing. But that is not the same as “firing”.
The point that people want to make about Dr. Klouda can still be made without saying she was “fired.”
Technically true. She was not fired in the same sense that Ergun Caner was not fired as Dean of Liberty, and the same sense that no one is ever fired from the White House, and in the same sense that Pres. Clinton did not have relations with Monica Lewinsky.
Exactly, Bill Mac.
It would be like Louis Not being “fired” when he is relieved of his position and sent to the clerical pool instead. He was not fired. After all, Christian seminaries always go by the legal language and letter of the law, right?
Perhaps we could call it a gentler but more deceptive way of being fired.
Many did L’s. Many did.
I want to share this with the group.
In discussions with my friends, I’ve come across three different ideas about the ending of the Conservative Resurgence.
One group says it ended with the Convention circa 1990 or 1991.
Some more of my friends believe that it ended with the passing of the BFM2K.
And a couple of people I know state that it’s still going on for reasons which aren’t important to this thread and where it’s going now…
Bill: I see it like the Civil War, in a sense. It ended with Lee’s surrender at Appomatox. We still live with the consequences of that victory/defeat, but we aren’t still fighting. So shall it be with the CR. We have the consequences of the CR that are still with us. But there are lots of internal struggles that are not CR related (Calvinist/non-Calvinist battles; PPL and Baptism issues at the IMB; NAMB issues; CP vs. Great Commission giving; the Shack, Mark Driscoll etc.) Getting the CR mixed up in all that gives the CR no contours. In that way,… Read more »
The BFM2K is an interesting issue. In a sense, it is far more restrained than one would expect from a CR inspired document. It does not, for example, forbid alcohol, deaconesses, or old earth creationism. It does not even use the word inerrant.
It’s still a CREED–the heart of being Baptist is to express oneself as an individual rather than to recite something created by man to ultimately become the God of your thinking mind.
Gene:
If it is a creed, it is the most unsuccessful creed in history. No one recites the BFM. I would suspect that most Southern Baptists have never even read it. No SBC churches are required to affirm it. I suspect that no one can produce from memory what it says, even those SBC employees who are required to affirm it. If it is a creed, it is a very, very bad one.
Bill Mac,
You are right. If its a creed, it is the worst in Christian History. 🙂
I totally agree that it is a “bad creed.”
If you apply for employment at any SBC Agency or Institution see if you won’t be grilled as to your TOTAL AGREEMENT to it!!!
Debbie: I saw your questions above, and I’ll give you my take. Dan Martin and Al Shackleford (sp?) were the Baptist Press employees who were terminated for insubordination. They were big time moderate supporters and succeeded Dr. Fields, who had been at Baptist Press forever. I believe that Shackleford had been at the Baptist and Reflector (the Tennessee state paper) before coming to Baptist Press. They were both on staff when the Executive Committee membership became a majority of identified conservatives. Martin and Shackleford wrote several stories that were unflattering toward the CR and conservatives. Many peole thought that Baptist… Read more »
Very accurate accounting, Louis–thanks for a job well done!!
We still don’t understand the armed guards in the picture—totally un-called for–especially before the meeting even started.
Brute force equal to other coups in foreign countries and other times (I didn’t say Nazi or Pharisee).
Debbie: Your other question was about Moyers. Moyers was raised in Texas as a Southern Baptist. He went to Southwestern. He worked for the Johnson administration. His claim to fame was working on the commercial that showed a nuclear bomb detonating with a little girl picking flowers, which I think ran once, but was pulled because it was so incendiary and unfair. Moyers, interestingly, has recently been revealed to have been involved in “outing” homosexuals as part of his job during the Johnson years in Texas. I saw an article on that in National Review over the last couple of… Read more »
Not exactly about Moyers. I think you can google several article at Christian Ethics Today that come closer to the Truth about the wider context. It goes deep to leaders in the CR reservations about Carlyle Marney at FBC Austin, and how a dissenting view from the White Citizens Council got ossified in the fog of inerrancy and the social issues agenda of the CR. For Instance Mark Newman in his Getting Right with God explains a lot about the character of many Southern Baptists who weren’t happy with LBJ and Moyers, Jimmy Allen, James Dunn, Foy Valentine and others… Read more »
Tom: My take is exactly that. I would welcome any information that you want to throw into the pot about Martin and Shackleford. I feel the same about BDW. I do not agree with your bringing up the race issue again. I was heavily involved in the CR, as much as I could be for my age (I was 18 in 1979). I attended lots of conservative meetings. I know personally many conservatives. I never heard at any meeting, not one time, the issue of race even mentioned. I never knew any of these men to be racist. I have… Read more »
Tom:
I also should tell you that I think Dr. Valentine did a good job on race, as did the Sunday School Board. The Board really had some hard days.
The SBC constituency was not racially progressive, by and large, and I give a significant thumbs up to the men who were – in that regard.
But the CR was about theological confession. And that’s what it was concerned with.
Louis,
I haven’t had time to read all the comments, but I’ve read several of yours. You have made some excellent comments about the SBC Conservative Resurgence. Hope everyone is reading them.
David R. Brumbelow
It’s NOT about race—It’s about change!!!
The human psyche does not care so much about specifics if there is so much change it cannot tolerate it.
The self-knowing informed psyche is able to say, “I’ve just had too many things too fast, now let me figure this out as to what is real and what is imagined.”
Racial change — social change — world change = Conservatives are “our contemporary ancestors!!!”
Moyers is just as political as Pressler or Patterson. Only left not right.
Most reporters or analysts are called that, Louis—even on FOX News!!!
Ah–the good name calling is working its way in so the fist fight is getting on!!!
To me the question of what conditions are causing the SBC to lose money is what to fix. Did the CBF people leave with their money ? Or has the SBC alienated Huge, say again Huge catagories of people who were once our congregants who have been insulted – or a combination thereof ? Public School Employees is one group with Teachers, subs, building maintainence, auto & bus mechanics, food service for cafeterias, bus drivers and management personnel and the bigge – all their families spouses and children. I personally checked with my school administration to confirm the feelings so… Read more »
Jack: You and I agree 100% on this point. Some left because they went with the CBF. But that was not a lot. Some left because of the constant fighting. That still goes on today. There is so much fighting among Baptist people, it is unbelievable. Some left, or don’t come because they do not catch the “vision” of doing things denominationally. That is a bigger one than we care to admit. The spirit of the age has changed. Many people do not want to be involved in denominational Christianity. Look at and think of all the effort and money… Read more »
Dave Miller:
I am doing my best to get you some comments!
Well done, sir!
I left out other groups but a third catagory of course is poor money management. If McDonalds opens up a restaurant it usually does very well for a variety of reasons but that is my answer that people don’t want a denomination. I know Baptists aren’t putting Baptist on the front of some new churchs but that disaccociates them with what we’ve identified. New church planting it seems to me is a huge plus as some old churchs that have been around 150 years and have 150 members will never change as they run like a club with a small… Read more »
Jack: You are nailing it again! Nothing will destroy confidence in an organization like poor money management. The NAMB was a bad deal. I have heard some criticism about the IMB for that, too. And you are right about churches. Our culture is fast moving. Churches and church movements that don’t move die. Churches that take risks and do what it takes to reach new people grow. McDonald’s is good in that regard, too. Compare their menu to day from 1970. If they insisted on the 1970 menu they would have a much smaller (perhaps loyal) following. But they would… Read more »
“Her 1 year contract expired (ran out) and was not renewed. She was not recommended for or granted tenure by the institution.” So she was in the job teaching Hebrew until her contract expired? “She was offered another job at the school, but she declined to take that, and she looked for and found a job at Taylor University teaching Hebrew, which is a very fine ” She was offerered a permanent job? No note to readers here, I would check every word Louis writes. He tends to spin facts. Search Wade’s blog for more accurate understanding of what was… Read more »
LOL
I love ya L’s!!!!
Lydia:
I thought about this while out with my family. I am not certain it was a one year contract. But the point was she was not tenured, and thus, her employment had a term.
No one in academia has a “permanent” job unless they are tenured.
I don’t remember all the details on the job she was offered. I think it was in research, the library or something.
One fact I do know – Dr. Klouda was not fired.
The heck you say!!!!
If it looks like a firing / feels like a firing = it IS a firing!!!!
Louis,
This is where we will disagree. I think it is really hard to see what happened to Sheri Klouda as anything else but being fired. I understand what you are saying about tenure. Nonetheless, she had employment, she was told her employment was over. In the seminary I worked in, that meant you were fired.
To have a job and then be told you do not have a job means you have been fired.
CB: I hear what you and the others are saying, but it is much better to have a conversation with things being clear. I read the opinion issued by the court in the case. I don’t believe at any time the court analyzed her firing or termination or that she complained of that. She complained that she had been promised a tenure position at some future date, that Patterson came in and told her not to worry, and that ultimately Patterson and the Trustees did not offer her tenure, and did not renew her contract. I guess, as Lydia notes,… Read more »
Louis, I am not a lawyer so I do not have your expertise in that area. As do you not have the same expertise as do I in other areas. My point in saying that is, we are both well educated and neither of us is stupid. Therefore let me say, I also read every word of the opinion issued by the court. I realize the documents do not present Sheri Klouda as being fired. Nonetheless, we both know she was told she would no longer have employment at SWBTS. That is why they went to court in the first… Read more »
Classic “lawyer-speak” = Bill Cinton = “It depends on what the definition of “is” is!!!” Question: “What is 10 lawyers, each chained to an engine block and thrown in the middle of the Pamlico River.” Answer: “A darned good start!!!” My father attended a law class at Mercer University thinking he might help people by being such. The Professor came in the first day with his formula for being a successful lawyer: (1) Get your retainer. (2) Get your retainer. (3) Same as 1 & 2 My father, a man of integrity, cashed in his law books for those in… Read more »
So Gene,
Are you saying that all lawyers are moral degenerates and are never to be trusted?
Let me see if I have this straight: All Southern Baptists who came to leadership after 1979 are evil, self-serving Interlopers. (KInda like Vandals and Visigoths at the Gate) And all lawyers are morally corrupt, money grubbing shysters. Is that about it, Gene?
As Ronald Reagan famously said, “There you go again, trying to put words into my mouth!!!!” Negative!!! What I am saying is that lawyers have 3 basic purposes: 1) To make good money 2) To represent their client with utmost discreation and confidentiality 3) To win at all costs Where I have my trouble with lawyers is when they push the edges of integrity and ethics. It is the same with Preachers / Insurance Representatives / Licensced Securities Advisors / Tree Surgeons–since I have been all 4—-“tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth–so help you God!!!”… Read more »
Louis, You would make a good lawyer parsing words and actions…
BTW: I think the tenure thing worried Patterson. She was on the tenure track. The “tenure” thing is a red herring. She was nastily jerked around after being told her job was NOT in jeporady. It was not even done with courage and class. We had “young informants” telling Patterson she was “teaching” men and they did not like it…etc., etc. BTW: I believe Klouda over Patterson or his “people” at SWBTS anyday of the week. But since the seminary is a “church” they can do pretty much whatever they want labor wise. Even AFTER they awarded her a PhD… Read more »
Most every year in every seminary, liberal, moderate, or conservative, people who would love to teach there are denied that opportunity.
They do not have openings for everyone. And yes, the president and others have a say in who teaches and who doesn’t. Just as a pastor should have a say in who is on staff and who isn’t. That is just a fact of life.
David R. Brumbelow
“Just as a pastor should have a say in who is on staff and who isn’t. ”
Yikes. Never mind those inconvenient people who pay the pastor and what they think….
Lydia,
To “have a say” is not to ignore what the rest of the body “thinks”. Why do you say this?
To ‘have a say’ in the context he presents it, sounds more like a nice way to say ‘decide’.
But then, I do not think the man made traditional “role” of pastor is what scripture describes as how the Body operates. So, it really is a moot point. We could just as easily be discussing any for profit or non profit legal entity because that is the model for our churches.
I’m a congregant here but I’ve been told in a “club church” that, ” I grew up with “them” and I don’t have to go to church with”them”” To which I replied, “What Bible are you planning on using?” This old church will pump out bad vibes that effect all our growth. I’m done.
From a historical standpoint, the CR should be divided into four phases: (1) 1962-1978 – Because of Ralph Elliott’s commentary on Genesis, SBC conservatives became concerned about what was being taught in SBC seminaries. Conservatives also did not like the more liberal views of the Christian Life Commission and the Baptist Joint Committee on Public Affairs. Some conservative presidents were elected during these years, but they had no plan of action and thus accomplished nothing. In 1967, Judge Paul Pressler met seminary doctoral student Paige Patterson and had a long conversation at the Cafe Du Monde in New Orleans. Conservatives… Read more »
The only change I would make is in number (4), because it is very obvious based on a reading of certain nameless blogs that there is a small but VERY vocal (read-whiney) minority of moderates in the SBC that would love to undo the good work that the CR did and move the SBC back toward a middle of the road/leftward leaning theological position with a doctrinal statement that could fit on a postage stamp. It would read “Faith trumps belief”.
Boo Hoo, Joe–boo hoo!!!
Gene,
I know what a God-loving man you are, and it is always regrettable when you come on here over CR issues and act exactly the opposite.
Jesus took a whip to moneychangers on the Temple steps.
His words to the Pharasees in Matthew 23 were far less than nice.”
I’m just a follower of Jesus in such matters of integrity and practicing what you preach. Nothing more / nothing less!
Joe: That is simply not true. But you are not even SBC so why would it concern you enough to spread untrue tales? To destroy for the sake of destroying. Yes. I believe so. Hopefully people can see right through you. I know I can.
Pot calling the kettle black, Debbie. Let’s keep it clean and fair.
An example Brandon would be appreciated. I have kept it more than clean and fair. I have also been honest.
By the way Brandon you are young, so I’ll take your comment as from youth, but if you think I destroy just to destroy you would be sadly mistaken. I do believe in living what we say the Bible teaches. For some, maybe like yourself, that is destroying. That’s why we are in the shape we are in now.
Without a common enemy, conservatives in the SBC have formed factions over various issues, with the internet accelerating the pace of controversies Jeff, good point but like I said above there is an obvious stain on the SBC that I think you could include in your number 4–the moderates who have hung on in the SBC who profess to be conservatives but are more than willing to cooperate with moderates and even hail some moderates as people they really respect. Further evidence–no real Christian would participate in the New Baptist Covenant much less support it. No one with sense would… Read more »
Joe,
If you are referring to Wade Burleson, other than some leanings towards egalitarianism, on what other issue is Wade Burleson a theological moderate? Burleson is a 5 point Calvinist. You don’t find many of those among moderates. Also, Burleson was known for his strident opposition to the CBF in the 1990s.
I haven’t mentioned any names. 🙂
You don’t have to bro!!!
We well know how you are and continue to be–ad nauseum!!!
Jeff:
Pretty good summary.
Conservatives and non-conservatives had battled in the convention since really the 1920s and before. Keeping SBC academia in check (especially at Southern) had been a constant battle and concern for the seminary administration for some time.
Things really changed in late 70s when Pressler (primarily) put things in motion by forming a small group to start the move.
By 1990, they had accomplished what they set out to do – change the composition of the Board of Trustees of the institutions.
I think I can agree with much of Dave’s original posting. He was honest and I do agree something had to be done as there were Liberal teachings going on. I know I had a conversation with one of those who was attempting to take over the SBC and did not believe Genesis to be true, but a book of stories not fact. Of course that is not true. But my problem is so many innocents were also hurt in the CR. Tactics taken were done in a underhanded way and lives were destroyed that shouldn’t have been. What could… Read more »
Debbie:
I hear you on that and do not disagree.
We should keep things in perspective, but we should not make excuses for poor behavior, even if people have correct theology.
Simple: “it’s not how high you jump, but how straight you walk with you hit the ground.”
If you walk with Jesus you have love / understanding / patience / peace / etc.
If you walk with the Pharisees, you have plotting / conniving / lying / calling Jesus “the devil’s son” rather than God’s—that was the basis of the “unforgivible sin of grieving the Holy Spirit.”
Dangerous ground—if you come before God a righteous fanatic, as was Paul, and he blinds you on the road to kill followers of Christ who differ with your zealot Jewish beliefs!
“”I just wonder what could have been done differently while maintaining the purity of scripture?”” Debbie, I admire your desire for an outcome that would have been more harmonious, seamless and left moderates in the camp. I admire your desire, but I have to say that could never have been the case. The CR was an out and out battle. It was a fight for the survival of a biblically-based, God-honoring denomination — though obviously very flawed as it is made up of humans. There could be no “meeting of the minds.” The moderates would not go peacefully into the… Read more »
One thing is absolutely clear. After 30 years, we have lost all interest in discussing the SBC Conservative Resurgence, haven’t we?
Norm (AKA bapticus hereticus): A few thoughts on the CR blog post; I only have time for three. 1) Offered were three group definitions, which may be jettisoned without a significant loss in interpretability, given the denominational controversy largely centered on inerrancy, those for and those against; however, to be fair to the writer, but instead of focusing on discrete theological categories, which were hardly orthogonal, as one moved more to the right (from the right), in general, one found greater support for inerrancy, and as one moved more to the left, not from the center, but from the right,… Read more »
Beloved Heretic,
Much of what you state here is true. Nonetheless, by your own admission, you are at “retirement age.”
Therefore, let me admonish you once again; Repent and believe the biblical gospel before it is everlastingly too late for you.
My friend, the CR is absolutely meaningless to you in your present, spiritual condition.
Amen!!! The gospel is not some wad of Silly Putty that you can shape however you want and still call it the gospel. There’s the gospel that bh believes and there’s the gospel as revealed in scipture. The two are not equivilant.
BH said, “SBC is a political organization and it is a theological organization, thus both motives were at play with the denominational controversy. It did not begin having a political character with the emergence of an activist conservative cohort nor has it ceased having such, nor should it. There is nothing inherently wrong with organizations having a political character.” That is the point that I was trying to make in the post, BH. Well stated. My objection is to the idea that the fact that the CR was political means that it was ONLY motivated by a desire for power.… Read more »
BH: Good to hear from you. I agree with much of what you write. I don’t think that the word “inerrancy” was added to the BFM for the simple reason that if it had been, it might have been an admission that the document did not already state a case for inerrancy. I was not on the committee that worked on these issues, but that is what I suspect happened. The committee was pleased with what the BFM said about the nature of the Bible, and did not feel a need to address it. Also, “inerrancy”, is quite technical, as… Read more »
A word to the anti-CR-folks here. If this thread gives you an opportunity to vent, great. But what is done cannot be undone, whether good or bad. As I said, I’m not qualified to speak about the CR, but let me share something. I was not a supporter of President Clinton. So when the Lewinsky scandal broke, I was all over it. I had a TV in my office, so I watched coverage of the whole sorry affair almost round the clock. I didn’t like Bill Clinton. I wanted him to fall, and fall hard. I wanted him humiliated. I… Read more »
Just looking for a litte truth, Bill Mac, in a great chasm of ignorance about matters folks profess to know the truth about. As I have said often, least name a cursory reading of the BX 6400’s on the matter before you go pontificating. I am footnoted in at least three of those volumes, and my Dad confronted one time SBC Prez Contender Fred Wolfe about things he said in a Convention Sermon when the BAMA SBC met in 89 in Huntsville, before the tornado came through. I’m not saying the tornadoe came because Wolfe misreprsented my Statement to the… Read more »
I will only tell stories of which I have personal knowledge. This Adrian story is from his Professor at NOBTS, Dr. Strange, whose sister attends my church. Adrian and his wife were both students and she got a “C” on a paper she submitted to Dr. Strange. I can’t believe it but Rogers stormed into Dr. Strange’s office demanding he change the grade because his wife had never made a “C” before. For any student to do such in my era would be unthinkable! Dr. Strange looked him in the eye and with gentle authority of the teacher said, “Well… Read more »
Another Adrian story I am told he, himself told:
Dr. R.G. Lee preceeded him and was famous all over the SBC and Baptist World Alliance. In a conversation with Dr. Lee, Adrian was observing as to how a computer can download information with ease.
He told Dr. Lee how much he wished he could download his brain into himself.
To which Dr. Lee responded: “Adrian, that would be like trying to put a grand piano into a closet!!!!”
Great words, for me and everyone. Thanks Bill Mac.
I will second Louis with an A-Men. Thanks Bill Mac.
I think it’s interesting that most here on the Resurgence side have characterized the Controversy as being simply a Battle for the Bible (largely over inerrancy).
You can’t separate the SBC Controversy from the larger context of American history in which significant cultural changes were taking place, specifically landmark Supreme Court decisions beginning with Brown v. BOE. It’s no coincidence that the Controversy really picked up steam as Reagan began to lead his revolution and with the rise of the Moral Majority and return of fundamentalists to the national political stage. Cultural instability certainly played a role.
BDW: No doubt. At the time I heard some conservatives saying that the reason the culture was in such bad shape was that the church had not been true to proclaim God’s word. And if our seminaries were turning out people who did not believe God’s word, it would only get worse. So, there was definitely a relationship there. That gives the CR a distinctly “Baptist” feel. I am certain that most of the conservatives I know would still be willing to protest over the theology alone, but being Baptists, there had to be some broader evangelical angle. And the… Read more »
Here is a bit of analysis that I agree with that responds to your point: “Recent fundamentalist-moderate conflicts are symptoms of a broader and more complex fragmentation in the organizational and cultural context of the SBC. In many respects the SBC has always lived on the edge of division over doctrine and practice. Indeed, the convention itself formed a denominational unity based less on rigid doctrinal synthesis than on denominational and regional identity. Such unity was grounded in a Grand Compromise in which ideologues on the right or the left were not allowed to control the center. Southern identity, denominational… Read more »
FTR; Oran Smith is currently an activist with offshoot of Focus on the Family. His work with Carroll Campbell, at one time Bush 41 leading candidate to Be a VP choice given connections through Lee Atwater; Campbell has a well known history playing the Race Card, Freedom of Choice Anti Bussing stance; and defeated a much more Progressive Candidate for US Congress in 78, former Mayor of Greenville, SC who happened to be a Jew. http://www.palmettofamily.org/execstaff.asp Atwater made a death bed confession of sorts about his race card politics in that race, including a ploy from the Jesse Helms Playbook,… Read more »
BDW– If I understand you correctly, the SBC and who controlled it has more to do with the social aspects of SBC leadership than any central theology. Personally, from my father’s experience of attempted ostricism (he graduated Andover-Newton rather then Southern) is a clear proof of behind-the-scenes manipulation by the “moderates.” In that time and context, they were casting doubts that a northern education didn’t make a man safe to be trusted by a big FBC which was considering him as pastor. I saw this in reverse as CR pastors worked tirelessly to get “their man” into every major large… Read more »
There might be some truth to that. But I heard a lot of talk in my younger years of concern about the growing liberalism in schools. There may have been a general unrest from cultural machinations, as you suggest.
But the people that I knew (admittedly, not the key leaders) were motivated mostly by a concern about theological drift at our seminaries (and primarily at SEBTS, SBTS and MWBTS).
BDW: I think it’s interesting that most here on the Resurgence side have characterized the Controversy as being simply a Battle for the Bible (largely over inerrancy). Norm: For many of us here, BDW, it was a lived event, not something that is mostly studied from afar or lived through another, which ‘the afar’ is exactly what is now needed to help those in the trenches at the controversy’s apex gain a wider perspective on the experience. From a micro perspective, one cannot ignore the vehicle (i.e., inerrancy) in which change was fueled. When one is admist a bunch of… Read more »