After the compensation study we have been discussing, I decided to edit and reprint an article I published here in December. Let me be clear, I am stating MY CONVICTIONS. While I believe they have a biblical basis, I am not trying to make them a universal demand for all.
I got my first paycheck from a church in 1980, and have been in “full-time Christian ministry” for the last 30 years. I served as a youth pastor for five years in Tequesta, Florida, as a pastor for 4 years in Drakes Branch, Virginia, and am approaching my 20th year of ministry in Iowa – over 14 in Cedar Rapids and the last 6 years in Sioux City. Since I left the lawn care company I worked for Ft. Worth (the “Lawn Rangers” – “fighting for law’n order around the Metroplex”) we have derived our living from our ministry at these four churches.
In all that time, I have never negotiated my salary with the church or asked for a raise. For me, it would be wrong to do so. I have tried to make my decisions about accepting a call to serve as pastor with no regard to how much the church will pay.
I guess I need to make some clarifications and caveats:
- I have told churches I was talking to that if they did not pay me a living wage, they had to realize that I would get a job to pay for my family’s financial needs. If they wanted full-time work, they had to provide a living wage. I never defined that or gave those churches a minimum salary.
- I did negotiate one thing one time (actually, I sort of demanded it). In Cedar Rapids, where I served for over 14 years, we had a policy for vacation time that provided two weeks of vacation for the first 5 years, a third week after 5 years and a fourth week after 15 years. I came t0 Southern Hills a few months shy of that fourth week of vacation and found that Southern Hills had a similar policy. I would be giving up the fourth week that was to receive at Northbrook, but I was going to be reduced to two weeks of vacation for my first five years in Sioux City. I was pretty strong on that. I told them “I’ve worked for the same company for 30 years, at different local branch offices.” I was pretty firm in that demand. I was willing to take a pay cut, but I was not willing to lose vacation.
- I have been pretty forceful on some salary-related matters. My first two churches had bought into bad advice that pastors were not employees, but independent contractors. I finally put down my foot and demanded to be seen as an employee by my church in Cedar Rapids, as tax law demands. I have also been forceful in getting my churches to move away from “total package” budgeting to the system that the good folks at Guidestone recommend. So, on some matters, I have been forceful.
I have never asked for a raise or negotiated with a church for money. I have never made salary an issue during my call to serve. I have actually decided whether to go to a church before I even knew what the salary package was. In fact, every time I have switched churches, it was for a pay cut.
Here is why I do what I do. I’m not saying everyone has to agree with me or follow my convictions on this.
But in this day of megachurches with megapastors pulling down megasalaries, I think it might be well for us to talk about what message we are sending by our salary negotiation practices. What impression do we give to our people when we demand certain salaries to do the work?
1) Salary demands seem inappropriate for servants of God.
When I was an associate pastor/youth pastor at my first church, our music minister left and we started fielding resumes from candidates to replace him. At the top of most of the resumes was a minimum salary demand. “I will not consider coming for less than $35,000 per year plus benefits.” Wow! This was the middle 80s and those were pretty high numbers back then. We were told that the seminary was instructing their grads to demand minimum pay for their services. “You are worth it.”
The church I served paid a living wage and was fair with its employees. But they were turned off by those resumes and tossed them without consideration.
Here’s the bottom line: either God has called me to Southern Hills or he hasn’t. If God called me, I should serve here if the pay is horrible. If God did not call me, I shouldn’t be here for a million dollars a year. I could not in good conscience make money the determining factor as to whether I accepted a ministry position.
Someone asked a group of young women this question, “Is there any point at which you would sell your body for money? If there is, you are a prostitute – the only question is the price.” If I were to attach any price to my ministry and service, I would feel like I was selling my service to God for money.
Paul received the Macedonian call. In the dream, he did not ask “Could you send me a breakdown of the financial support plan? What are the benefits?” I find not a single instance in scripture where a man of God called to serve ever negotiated salary or demanded pay to do what God told him to do.
I have taken a pay cut every time I have switched ministries. My first full-time ministry position was an increase from my lawn care duties, but since then, I have not been consistently downwardly-mobile in my job changes. My first pastorate was only a slight dip in pay from the Associate Pastor position at the larger Florida church. But when I moved to Iowa, I got exactly the same money (within $100 or so) I had gotten in Virginia, but there was no parsonage. That was pretty significant. When I moved from economically prosperous Cedar Rapids to struggling Sioux City (Gateway computers was founded here, but had fled to California and destroyed our economy), I took a significant hit.
One man here, at the question and answer session, asked me point blank, “Why would you consider moving churches for a pay cut this big?” I was able to tell him what I have said today. Ministry is not about money. It is about going where God calls you to go and doing what God calls you to do.
I would ask you this: where in Scripture do you find any servant of God demanding money or negotiating financially for his service. I just cannot do it in good conscience, so I do not do it.
2) Demanding money for ministry is consistently a sign of the false prophet.
The prophets of the Old Testament delivered the message of God regardless of what people thought. The false prophets only prophesied to those who paid them. Remember Balaam? In Numbers 22-24, he took Balak’s money to curse Israel and finally showed him a way to remove God’s protection from his people. He sold out for money. Consistently, in the OT era, the false prophet had a profit-motive for his “ministry.”
In 1 Timothy 6:5, Paul is describing the false teachers who would come into the church. He describes them as, “imagining that godliness is a means of gain.” Their service to God came with a price tag. To Titus, Paul described another group of false prophets in this way. “They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach.” In 2 Peter 2:3, Peter adds this warning. “And in their greed they will exploit you with false words.” A pastor who fashions his words to protect his paycheck is treading dangerous ground.
Paul was careful to distance himself from this kind of money-based ministry. In 2 Corinthians 12:17-18, he says “Did I take advantage of you through any of those whom I sent to you? I urged Titus to go, and sent the brother with him. Did Titus take advantage of you? Did we not act in the same spirit? Did we not take the same steps?” This builds on his defense of his ministry in 1 Corinthians 9:13-18 Paul points out that while it is his right as an apostle to draw his living from the gospel, he did not assert that right. “What then is my reward? That in my preaching I may present the gospel free of charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the gospel.” He wanted to make sure that his hearers did not think that he was in this for the money.
No, I am not saying that anyone who asks for a raise is a greedy, false prophet. I’m telling you why I do what I do. But I would ask this question: when we come to our people with salary demands, when we push for increases, do we not feed the idea that we are in it for the money? When your resume attaches a minimum salary figure, what does that say to the committee who reviews it? I have made the choice not to negotiate my salary or to demand increases, because I did not want to feed an impression that my ministry was for sale.
Weren’t we called to serve for “heavenly treasure?”
3) Ministry is my job; Provision is God’s job
Here’s my ministry philosophy: ministry is about obedience. It is about going where God called me to go and doing the work he has called me to do. It is not about money. God’s job is to pay the bills. When God called, Moses did not ask him what the salary package was. Elijah went to Mt. Carmel with no financial guarantees. Paul did not have any guaranteed income. Our Savior had no place to rest his head.
Jesus told his followers about money, “Seek first the kingdom of God and its righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.” Serving God is my job. Providing for my needs is God’s job. When I am making salary demands, I feel like I am trying to do God’s job.
4) I must be content with what God provides
Paul said, “Godliness with contentment is great gain.” We love Philippians 4:13, “I can do all things through him who strengthens me.” We often forget that the context of this passage is about Paul’s willingness to endure poverty as well as plenty. Verses 11 and 12 precede verse 13 (duh?). “Not that I am speaking of being in need, for I have learned in whatever situation I am to be content. I know how to be brought low, and I know how to abound. In any and every circumstance, I have learned the secret of facing plenty and hunger, abundance and need.”
Paul continued to minister in contentment and joy regardless of whether he was well paid or in need. That is the attitude we should strive for.
Some of the readers here are well-paid. Give thanks to God and make sure you serve faithfully. Other readers are poorly paid by either stingy or needy churches. Give thanks to God and make sure you serve faithfully. Our duty is to be content and joyous regardless of our pay.
Would I do a better job is my church gave me a big raise? If I would, I don’t deserve a penny! Is there a price tag on my ministry? I have chosen to try to act in such a way that no person I serve can say, “he’s in it for the money.”
5) God has been good.
Not only has God been good, but God’s people have been good. Maybe my experience is unique, but the churches I have served have demonstrated a willingness and desire to take care of their pastors. Maybe its a reverse psychology, I don’t know. When I stop asking for money, they stop defending the bottom line. I hear pastors talking about the difficult people they have encountered whose only desire seems to be keeping the preacher poor. That has not been my experience.
I have taken pay cuts to move churches, but those churches have always been careful to give me more than generous raises year after year. I’m sure my experience is not universal, but I have a suggestion.
Perhaps God is a better salary negotiator than I am. When I do my job as pastor and preacher, and I let God do his job and provider, things have gone pretty well. God seems to be able to move the hearts of personnel and stewardship committees way better than I can.
Again, I’m sharing my convictions, not saying you have to follow them. But, I am saying this – in 30 years of non-negotiation, God has been pretty faithful at seeing that I am taken care of.
Conclusion
I present this as a testimony of God’s faithfulness and the convictions I have developed. I am not demanding that you believe as I believe or do as I do. I would say this. I think it is time that many preachers give thought to the way we are presenting ourselves in this world. I’m a pastor, not a corporate CEO. I serve God for heavenly treasures. I want to make sure to make it clear that earthly treasures are not what motivates my ministry.
I can say this: it has worked pretty well. I’ve never been rich but we’ve never starved either. As I have done my work, God has done his job. God is good.
These are my convictions and commend them for your consideration.
I have asked a church what their pay intentions were, partly because in a youth ministry situation I got into a mess one time. The church had stated they would pay me full-time, but just had to nail down the amount. I told them that I would do the job, but that if it wasn’t enough, I’d have to keep my fast-food work. Then, we talked about responsibilities and job duties. I accepted the position, but the pay wasn’t enough. Meanwhile, the search committee had in mind that I would be doing all sorts of things which I didn’t have time for because I was working 4 nights in fast-food. So, I didn’t last long.
I will go anywhere, and have taken paycuts to be where I thought I should be, but I will also consider what a church is offering as part of my decision process. For example, where I am now, there’s not much of a job market to fall back on in the first place, and the deacons are adamant that they only want a full-time pastor and don’t want the church to have a bi-vocational pastor. So, I had to consider if I could afford it. Just barely by earthly standards, but we love it here.
I was accused of “ripping off” my last church my insisting they budget for all of those “ministry expenses” items. The church offered a salary, and then stated they would pay for “convention, education, books, and so on…(all of those items in the Guidestone book).” Except they didn’t set an amount for any of it. I asked them if they knew how much a nerd-type pastor could spend on books in any given year! Then some folks complained because I had a budget for books and the previous pastors had never had one….he didn’t have one because he just brought in receipts or charged to the church card all he wanted.
Money is a mess in many churches, because most folks don’t know what’s going on or what’s truly involved in paying any form of employee. It makes one wonder if we’d be better off without paying pastors—but then you’re going to have a hard time getting folks to go through 3-6 years of seminary just to qualify as a volunteer.
I don’t know a pastor who would negotiate salary with a church but I know a lot like you who will speak candidly and forcefully about pay and benefits. That’s a pretty good policy. Sometimes churches and the relevant committees need to be educated and no one else knows enough to do it except for the pastor/pastor candidate.
If the prospective pastor is not knowledgable and insistant on discussing some things he deserves whatever problems he ends up with.
Here are things that absolutely have to be discussed, agreed upon, and put in writing:
Salary
Vacation
Weeks allowed for revivals or mission trips
Accountable reimbursement plan
Housing Allowance
Insurance
Retirement contribution
The pastor should educate the responsible church committee on these and on the fact that the pastor is an employee for income tax yet pays SETA on salary and housing.
I’ve had CPAs who weren’t familiar with clergy stuff. You gotta do it.
Good article.
I have known some pastors who did two things:
1) Demand higher salary.
2) Demand that their salary be kept from the church.
Ive never asked a church for a raise, but I’ve gone to bat for staff guys several times.
John,
So, when you “went to bat” for the staff, you did not also get a raise?
My concern with this post is not what it says, but what it does not say. I know many pastors who could make the same claim: “I’ve never asked for a raise,” and do it with a straight face even though it is not the “whole” truth.
“Putting a bug” in an influential church member right before a business meaning is not different than “asking for a raise.”
I’m not saying David did this (or even implied this). What I’m saying is that there are other ways that Pastors “ask” for stuff rather than making a motion at a business meeting.
I personally see nothing wrong with presenting your needs. I personally see nothing wrong with “negotiating” with godly men and women who are looking for a shepherd. The key is to avoid the issues this post raised. I think that can be done with or without negotiating.
Personally, I’ve been in full time ministry for for many years and I have NEVER received a paycheck.
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……………………………… it goes straight to my wife!
Frank, the kind of manipulation of which you speak, “putting a bug in the ear” of an influential member – that I would consider an offense against integrity. It would be more honorable to simply come out and say, “We’ve got to have more money” than to sneak around.
I think it is best to leave it in God’s hands. If you cannot simply leave it in God’s hands, be forthright. Sneaking around and politicking like you suggested is vile and unworthy of any man of God.
Dave,
I agree with you. I save the financial discussions for late in the interview process. Most committees have wanted to discuss this before I was ready. I told them that I did not want to be swayed by money, but at the same time I figured they knew what it took to live in their area. I once took a 66% cut in salary to serve as a church planter/mission pastor. It was also in that church that we bought our first house 3 years later. Like John above, I have sought raises for my staff. Every church I have served have done their best to care for their pastor – some had better resources, but all did the best they could. And yes, God has always provided.
I agree with you agreeing with me.
I hear people talk about churches that treat pastors badly, try to keep them poor, etc.
That has not been my experience in the 4 churches I have served over my 30 years of ministry. These churches have cared for us and been very good to us. For that I am thankful.
Dave, I think what you say would tend to work in a healthy church. Dysfunctional churches have a different view of finances than do healthy ones–I know, I served them 1986-2004. One refused to break down my package into housing, travel, insurance, etc., “because you’re no better than us, and we have to pay everything out of one check.” They paid paltry too, and were not above manipulating financial (and other) records to suit their purposes. Another outright lied to me about what the minister of music was paid, and mislead me about what to expect as far as raises and expectations. At none of those churches would I have demanded some specific amount of a raise, but in retrospect, I would have been more specific about what I expected of them rather than just going with the flow. At such churches, the old joke about the Finance Committee’s prayer (“Lord, you keep the preacher humble, and we’ll keep him poor”) is taken seriously. A dysfunctional church often has members who lack communication with on high regardless of their position.
John
I have been assertive about doing things the right way – budgeting practices, etc.
If a church does not have financial integrity, there’s not much good gonna come of it.
John,
I hear what you are saying and I have been there. My advice for what it is worth — pass the dysfunctional church up. It will only rob one of precious years that could be used in ministry.
I did not follow this advice and paid the price–along with my wife and kids. It breaks my heart to think back on those days. I thought I could be the Great White Knight riding in to save them from themselves.
I turned out to be Don Quixote jousting with jet engine blades.
Start a church before you take a dysfunctional one. It will be the best choice one ever makes in ministry.
I went to my first church ignorant of what a dysfunctional church even was, much less that such things existed. I stayed there four years (OK, two months short of four years) when the average tenure since they became a single church field in 1960 had been 18 months. My ministry and calling was to troubled and dysfunctional churches, and I would not recommend that anyone go to a dysfunctional church unless there is a calling from God about it–or any other church for that matter. I had such a calling. Yes, it was difficult; yes, there were heartaches and headaches that other pastors did not have to endure, but I never went to a church unless I was sure God was calling me there, and I like to think that I helped those churches. The last such one I served–they had forced or asked every minister/pastor (except one) they had to leave over the last 50 years. In addition, one died there, and at least one other was committed straight from the facility. I had a stress-related heart attack, and our mninister of music had heart failure necessitating a pacemaker. I prayed, asked, in fact begged God to let me change direction, and He did. But nonetheless, troubled and dysfunctional churches were my calling 1986-2004.
John
John,
I can’t say whether God calls persons to an abusive, perpetually dysfunctional church or not. I can say: if one is dependent upon said church for personal and family needs — one has just checked in to Hotel California.
The only way it makes sense to help a dysfunctional church (and I’d argue it makes no sense at all) is to be totally self-sufficient.
I even tried that one time and it didn’t fare very well.
Dave,
As you know, arguments about 1099 vs. W2. can get pretty heated. I know some Baptist pastors who insist on the 1099 for various reasons.
They are simply wrong – its pretty much an established and settled principle. We are employed for tax purposes and self-employed for SS reasons. Dual status.
I would not agree to serve a church that insisted on using the 1099. It is contrary to established law and it is bad for everyone.
Are there still churches out there doing the 1099?
Yep. Had to correct the treasurer in the current church—and he does books for a half-dozen churches and does them all 1099. I insisted that mine be W-2, but there’s still several that are 1099 around here.
While I agree about not negotiating for a salary/package “figure” (unless it’s what you must have to live and not just want), I see nothing wrong with responding to ch. comm with avg/median Guidestone range(s) per combo of church size, attend, budget and pastor exp and education.
There’s a sanctified balance, imo.
If the church doesn’t have the means to pay median comp that’s one thing.
But if it does, yet isn’t willing (and is aware of Guidestone figures), that’s another. And can be indicative of lacking biblical regard for: 1) the pastor’s office; and/or 2) biblical mandate for him to provide for his family and church’s to “honor”, even “double honor” him as he “labors” in study and preaching the word (not to mention the sundry other pastoral roles) so he can.
For those new at candidating with churches, agree with previous advice that getting all factors in writing before accepting is wise. Hence, no surprises (or at least fewer) and diminished temptation to resentment and possible bitterness.
The only dumb question is the one you don’t ask, whether comp figures, polity or basic expectations (i.e. what you’ve got to do besides preach to keep your job or prevent discord that could’ve been avoided if you only knew. Another i.e. My church expects significant sr. adult visitation/interaction from me despite having assoc pastor with “sr. adult” in his job title and description.)
Also – regardless of how kind, loving or accommodating church/psc seems during process and even honeymoon afterward – he who goes to a church that won’t (not can’t) follow scripture regarding compensation shouldn’t be surprised when it won’t follow him or God otherwise.
Blessed are they who are prayed-up – and prepared.
Chris,
Those who insist on a 1099 need to be eduacated. The IRS wants W2. To not head there call will result in much pain and angony down the road. Guidestone does a great job providing info on this. No SBC church has an excuse other than laziness for not knowing the package issues and reporting.
I had a church one time when it came to tax season, I was late on receiving my W2 from them, so I went and asked the person in charge of the finances and asked her about it. Her reply was, “I don’t do W2s, I told them when I took the position that if I have to do W2s I’ll quit.” I asked, “So what are you going to give me?” She said, “I don’t give you anything, you keep track of it yourself.”
No surprise, the next tax season (when I wasn’t there anymore), I didn’t receive a form from them, so I tried contact them and all my requests were ignored. So I contacted the IRS and the IRS contacted them; then instead of sending me the W2 like the IRS specified, they sent me a 1099-R, for retirement and annuity funds. And they lumped everything together w/o separating the amount they paid into retirement–so I would end up being double-taxed on that figure if I didn’t get it corrected. Again, tried contacting them and was ignored…
I hated it doing it, but w/ everything else, I found the IRS to be my friend in that situation; it took two years and a whole lot of paperwork, but it finally was settled: I was an employee for tax-purposes and the church was required to supply me a W2 w/ the correct information on it.
Tim is absolutely right. Using a 1099 is absolutely wrong.
I too have never negotiated a salary or even a benefit item with a church. When working with a pastor search committee, they often ask me what my compensation expectations are. I refer them to the most recent SBC Compensation study for guidance. I also ask them to take into account my education and years in ministry.
As a trained tax accountant, I also have a consulting ministry on behalf of our local association to educate churches on finance and tax matters. When churches talk about “total package” amounts, what they are really saying is that they have only $X of money available in their budget to compensate a pastor (including accountable reimbursements). Many churches realize that some pastors would want more salary while others would want more health insurance payments, retirement contributions or accountable reimbursements. Many churches are unwilling to make those determinations on behalf of the pastor and simply ask him to take the lump sum and break it down in a way meaningful to them. I consult with pastors on how to do this in the most tax advantageous way.
I agree that if God is calling someone to a church, compensation should not be an issue. However, I would say that if a church gives evidence during the search process that they are unwilling to adequately support their pastor financially, red warning lights should be blinking brightly.
Brother Dave,
It is Sunday AM and I am getting ready to go to a Sunday School Teachers meeting before Sunday School, thus, I will not be too disagreeable. I will save that for the Sunday School Teachers meeting. 🙂
Seriously, I am not sure your “caveat” agrees with your Title and other principles that you have presented. Brother William called it speaking “candidly and forcefully about pay and benefits.” However you stated that you “demanded” it when you went to Sioux City. Ugh, it gives the appearance that had they not given you the extra week you would not have moved. If you presented that same appearance to the search committee, then you have negotiated a salary. The reason is you had a non-negotiable that you were not willing to give up and they had something on the table they were willing to give up–that being the vacation.
Not trying to be disagreeable but seriously doubt you are being “candid” in your approach because this is a negotiation.
Blessings,
Tim
It didn’t exactly go like that, Tim. But I guess you will think what you think.
Brother Dave,
Ok, my mind is open. You said;I did negotiate one thing one time (actually, I sort of demanded it). Your title is I Will Not Negotiate Salary with my Churches. What did I miss?
Tim
Vacation time and sound accounting principles (2 things he said he “put his foot down” over) are not salary.
I, like John Farris, seem to be go to troubled Churches. It just seems like the Lord leads me there to help them try to get back on track. I’ve also been to Churches where the last Pastor left under fire….got out right before the ax fell.
While I was at these Churches, I just preached the Gospel and taught the Bible. I tried to love on these people. I tried to help them work thru their problems, and to get over the past. It was not easy work….most of the Churches didnt pay very well. But, it was a sacrifice that the Lord called upon my family and me to do. And, we did it. Many times wondering how we were gonna pay the electric bill…wondering how in the world we were gonna pay the Dr., much less buy the medicine he prescribed….walked around in old, worn out clothes and shoes….drove old cars, and kept driving them…etc, etc, etc. And, I believe the Lord has used me to help those Churches work thru tough situations, and to be spiritually healthy, again. I believe the Lord used my ministry at these churches to help them to get back on track. And, every church I’ve left, many of the congregation was either crying, and/or saying that they wished we wouldnt leave. Of course, there’s always a couple of people, who are singing the Hallelujah chorus… but the majority…the vast majority….were sad. We love the people of those churches, and they still love us, too.
But, the Lord did take care of us thru it all. And, I really dont believe there’s anything wrong with letting a church know about your needs….even though I’ve found it very difficult to talk about money for me…you know, I save the financial matters for last, when talking to a prospective Church, who’s looking at me. And, at the Churches where I’ve served, I have always left raises up to them….although, I have let them know when my insurance was going up, and how much it was being raised.
One other thing I do…usually….if the Church has enough money to give a raise….is, I excuse myself from the meeting, when they’re gonna talk about my salary, a raise….but, when I leave, I pull out my empty pants pockets, and I tell them, “yall just remember this.” And then, I walk out, chuckling softly. And, they usually burst out laughing, too.
David
David,
I appreciate your story. It is much like mine. That’s why I would do everything in my power not to see someone follow in my footsteps.
My last dysfunctional story would make a great T.V. movie. It had everything: police, IRS, lawyers. I actually had to fight off a hostile takeover of our church property by another Southern Baptist entity and three law firms.
So, I understand dysfunctional churches. You said:
“””the vast majority….were sad.”””
Here’s the key issue: dysfunctional churches are not led by the majority of the congregation. They are usually as much a victim of the “influential leaders” as the pastor is.
Don’t waste your life young preachers. Plant a church. Teach them to give generously to missions and to others and you will never have to worry about paying your bills. You will also leave something valuable behind for the person that follows you as pastor.
Just my “two bits worth.”
I’m not a pastor or a paid minister. But I have this same conviction out in the “secular” work world because of the same principle. The exception would be if I were to do any contract work as a living or run my own business that I should establish reasonable prices for goods and services. Otherwise, I work as though I work for God and He provides through the people He has given to employ me.