I know it’s the Christmas season, but recently having read once again the claim that all Baptists are Calvinists, I must now draw this line in the sand and, of my own free will, form a covenant with my Calvinist brothers that I will “slap upside the head” the next person who tells me I’m a Calvinist!
Of course, God already possesses the foreknowledge that I will do this thing. He has given me free will, a functioning right arm and a right hand fully capable of an open-faced slap. I will not make a fist. I will not break any bones. I will probably not miss you unless you duck. Your skin may be slightly red for a short while. But I fully intend to unleash my wrath, in an unlimited manner, extending to whosoever maketh this outrageous claim, because I refuse to be called by such a name.
Stop it! Stop it right now! I’m not a Calvinist–not in the usual sense of the word. The fact that I share with Calvinists a couple of the tulip petals does not make me one of them. To paraphrase the old yarn, going to the Southern Baptist Convention does not make me a Calvinist any more than being in a garage makes me a car.
Let me share a few caveats. First, if someone of the fairer gender calls me a Calvinist, I will overlook the transgression, which it is a man’s glory to do. Second, if a minor calls me a Calvinist, I will overlook the transgression. They may not have reached the age of accountability and it’s just plain wrong. Third, if someone is preaching the Word and they claim that all Baptists are Calvinists, I will wait until the sermon is over so I can fulfill this prophecy in the parking lot after the service. Fourth, I will not slap a man in the presence of his wife and children. Fifth, out of respect for their service, I will not slap a seminary president or elected convention officer unless granted permission first. Sixth, out of courtesy to the Greatest Generation, I will not slap a senior citizen. Seventh, out of gratitude for their sacrifice, I will not slap a military veteran, police officer, fireman or other community helper. Eighth, if someone trains their parrot to say, “All Baptists are Calvinists,” I will harm no animals in the fulfillment of this pledge. Finally, if someone looks really mean and appears to work out a lot, they won’t get slapped either. So mostly I guess this is just for wimpy middle-aged guys who call me names.
Friends, SBC may stand for Slowly Becoming Calvinist, but every Baptist is not on board with that understanding and we do not appreciate the name calling. We no more accept that moniker than most Baptist ministers would accept being called a Liberal. I realize we may be “liberal” in the sense of being generous in our gifts to the poor, but the usual sense of that word theologically is an insult to those with conservative beliefs.
Because I have told you in advance that this is going to happen, and because God in His sovereignty knows it is going to happen, then He either wills it or He allows it, a moot point really, since in either case, the sting will feel the same upon your cheek. After receiving the blow, you are encouraged to turn the other cheek, which I promise not to strike unless you (a) bring my mother into the conversation, or (b) reiterate your claim that all Baptists are Calvinists.
Let me say that I am generally a very mild mannered person, but I have come to accept the axiom that the difference between a Calvinist and a Terrorist is that you can negotiate with a Terrorist. All of my reasons for disputing the title of Calvinist will only be rejected, point by point, by the Calvinist, probably with an annotated outline and footnotes attributing long quotations to Piper and Spurgeon. Regardless, I should be allowed to define what I am and what I am not.
I believe the only way to stop this annoying practice is for somebody to shout, “Stop it!” “No” means “no.” Quit doing it! We don’t like the label. It carries far too much baggage. It offends us. We understand you like the label. You probably think you’re building bridges by including us in your broadly defined term. But you’re not. It’s insulting, condescending and unfair.
I am a Baptist who is not a Calvinist. Stop calling me one or suffer the consequences that God, before the foundation of the world, knew would be yours, at the hand of a pastor (with a tongue firmly planted in his cheek) who is unapologetically predestined to punch.
Good read. It reads almost like an Arminian Dr. Seuss. 🙂 I would like to point out one thing; the will is not free. It is bound to sin and short comings and thus a slave to sin. If a person is a Christian, it is a will that is moved, influenced and empowered by grace away from the will of the flesh and is obedient toward the will of the Father. If that be the case, our will is not technically our own when doing the will of the Father. If it was it would be considered a work… Read more »
“If I’m an Arminian Dr. Seuss,
Perhaps it’s time for a Christmas truce.
So Merry Christmas to my friend, Bruce.”
Whether I was “bound” to write that or “free” to write that is a subject I must contemplate further.
Thanks for the post. I have a strong distaste for this argument. I hear it over and over again. The general notion from some is that anyone who is NOT Calvinist does not correctly understand it for if they DID understand it, they would BE Calvinist.
There are a couple other terms I would like to pitch into this bucket as well…
Merry Christmas sir!
><>”
Rick, can you point out where you read this? I’ve seen lots of stuff about how Baptists have always had Calvinists among them. I’ve seen lots of stuff about how Baptists were historically Calvinist. I’ve seen stuff claiming Baptists can’t be Calvinists. But I don’t think I’ve seen anything about how all Baptists are Calvinists. That’s a new one, at least for me.
I second this request. Where has anyone called all Baptists Calvinists?
It kinda sounds like something my uncle would say (he’s a Nazarene preacher who thinks such things)
Me three. I’ve never heard this claim and anyone saying it has to be pretty fringe with a few cylinders not firing.
Let me clarify lest it sound like I was slamming Matt’s uncle (didn’t finish reading his comment before posting mine): anyone saying that _from within the SBC_ has to be pretty fringe without all cylinders firing.
Chris,
If by “fringe” we mean “not the majority view of Southern Baptists in the pews,” then at least one of my examples might very well be fringe.
However, I believe he is firing on all cylinders. He’s pretty sharp, which makes me believe he knows exactly what he’s doing. For that matter, I agree with 98% of what he says and writes. It’s that 2% that bothers me.
Me four… I have never, ever heard this claim.
For anyone to pretend this is how a majority of calvinists think is just plain ridiculous.
Al Mohler said as much (https://sbcvoices.com/albert-mohler-why-all-southern-baptists-are-calvinists/)
Thanks William, you beat me to it.
Rick….since you refuse to slap seminary presidents, I fear you must endure being called a Calvinist. Albeit a Calvinist that insists he is not a Calvinist. You just don’t know or won’t admit to being a Calvinist. A failing indeed. If you knew your history then you would know you unconsciously chose to be a Calvinist. So, since you claim to be Baptist, according to some, you are by default a Calvinist. Whether you like it or not. :o)
Thanks for setting me straight, Lydia. Both you and Dr. Mohler enjoy immunity from the slap. Not only do I lack historical knowledge, but even if I possessed it, I fear I must lack the “basic structures of thought” to work through this issue and arrive at the only proper conclusion.
Have a Merry Christmas!!
A gold star for William.
I had forgotten the Mohler piece. But did he say that all Baptists are Calvinist, or that all Baptists share these things in common with Calvinism?
See my reply to Bill below–the comment nesting is confusing. But no, it wasn’t your uncle, Matt–at least I don’t think so.
I third it. I’m all for presenting others’ beliefs accurately because I rather like for my own to be presented accurately. That said, I’m a veteran. So I know I’m safe from your violent retort should I ever cross that line – not that I’m concerned: I can handle myself pretty well if it comes to blows. …the difference between a Calvinist and a Terrorist is that you can negotiate with a Terrorist. By way of example, this comment evokes a memory of the charge made by Ergun Caner that Calvinists are worse than Muslims. I’d classify that as “insulting,… Read more »
Yikes! I must have missed closing an HTML tag. The links are still there, though.
For the record, I really, really intended my tone to be understood as tongue in cheek and hope it came across that way. Also, I do not share Caner’s view that Calvinists are worse than Muslims, although I have yet to hear a Muslim proclaim that all Southern Baptists were Muslims. That is the annoying little habit I am rebuking here. If even the original Santa did indeed slap Arius, how can it possibly be naughty? He’s the one keeping the list. In addition, please note the one doing the slapping represented the orthodox position. I rest my case. Have… Read more »
St. Nicholas’ skeletal remains show that HIS nose was badly broken . . . so something must have happened.
My guess is that Nicholas got in the first punch, but not the last one. Arius probably ‘reacted’.
All conjecture . . . except that the bones tell what they tell.
Gladly, Bill. (1) Most recently it was in this first comment on Bob Hadley’s blogpost “The Problem With Calvinism in the SBC” written by Randy Davis: “The truth of the matter is that Baptists have always been Calvinists, or more precisely, particular in their view of the atonement.” Really? Then why all the fuss? (2) The second example is a quote of Dr. Al Mohler by Errol Hulse in Chapter Eight of “Ministry By His Grace and For His Glory: Essays in Honor of Thomas J. Nettles”: “Even the opponents of Calvinism must admit, if historically informed, that Calvinism is… Read more »
PLease, whatever you do, do NOT include Brad Meltzer!
“What if I told you that Dave Miller was really a Red Sox fan?”
Then “investigate” for an hour and come to the conclusion that “we have no proof to deny…”
I can’t speak for the comment on the Hadley post, but hey, it was responding to Hadley. That requires special grace.
On Mohler’s comment, there I think he is right. He did not say all Baptists are Calvinists, but that many of the significant figures in early Baptist history were Calvinist. Important distinction there. But even if he is wrong about the origins of the SBC, he still isn’t saying SBCers today are all Calvinist.
As for Lumpkins’ work on this or any subject, well…
So we excuse Randy since he was responding to Hadley. We avoid Peter since he, too, must be marginalized. Do you realize how dismissive that sounds toward non-Calvinists? Also, you must think Al Mohler playing “Pin the Tail on the Donkey” because you have seriously spinned him around and around. In those quotes, he said a great deal more than simply, “…many of the significant figures in early Baptist history were Calvinist.” If that was all that he and others were saying, I would never have written my little rebuke. There really are SBC voices (lower case “v”) who are… Read more »
The issue here is defining Calvinism. Are most Baptists today more in the general Calvinist sphere than in the Arminian sphere? I would say so. Generally, if you believe in some form of eternal security, you are generally in the Calvinist realm. I think that is what Mohler is saying. Those who disdain Calvinism often associate it with “Five-point, Reformed-system, all-in Calvinism.” Most Baptists today do not support that. I have read Calvinists who say that you aren’t really a Calvinist unless you support the WHOLE system (including paedobaptism, covenant eschatology, etc). So, I will be glad to answer the… Read more »
Dave and others,
I have also heard, off and on for years, that in a sense all Baptists are Calvinists; that we all at least agree on eternal security. And, depending on how they are defined, most Southern Baptists also agree with some, though not all, other of the 5 points of Calvinism.
So I’ve seen some “non-5-point Calvinists” claim to be “non-Calvinists,” and some claim to be “Moderate Calvinists.”
You all have a great Christmas and Lord’s Day today! Even the Calvinists and Yankees fans :-).
David R. Brumbelow
Rick Patrick, After having read this post, I conclude, in the words of the famous A-TEAM tough guy, Mr.T: “I pity the fool” who calls you a Hindu or a Mormon. Merry Christmas to you brother. I trust you did not get any damage to your home or neighborhood from the storms yesterday. We, here in my neighborhood, were without power for a greater part of the afternoon, night and throughout the morning today, but we are now up and running. Thankfully to our Lord, no damage was done around here. Obviously, these storms were, in the words of Papa… Read more »
Christmas Greetings, CB. We survived the storm just fine. May you and yours enjoy a wonderful celebration this Christmas!
The will is, indeed, free, but only to do things which are consistent with one’s nature. You are not free, for instance, to breathe water like a fish, or hover (in and of yourself) in the air like a hummingbird. Nor are you free to drain all your blood and fill your veins with, say, lemonade. Or spin yourself a cocoon and then emerge later as a butterfly. Oh. The only folks I ever hear saying all baptists are Calvinists are the ones who are saying that other people are saying it and it’s not true. Maybe I live under… Read more »
Thanks, Bob. You saved me a lot of time. Now, I won’t try to do any of that stuff. The hummingbird thing was a real temptation.
Out of curiosity, and for no particular reason, may I ask if you are a senior citizen or have ever served in the military?
I am old. And no I never served in the military.
I figured you guessed I’m a senior citizen because of my incisive conclusions, my extreme knowledge of most topics, or you saw that YouTube of me picking my nose.
It is useless to resist. Give yourself to the dark . . . I mean Reformed side. It is your destiny.
Ooh, don’t you call them reformed. They hate that!
And when you call on me to “Give myself” to that viewpoint, I must ask: “Is it really within my power to do so? Could I do it if I wanted to? If God wanted me to, could I resist doing it?”
Do Calvinists believe that the authority of God’s Sovereignty over against Man’s Responsibility extends not only to their salvation itself but also to their soteriological view? Has God predestined some to be Calvinists and others to be non-Calvinists?
God’s sovereignty is not “over against” man’s responsibility. Man is fully responsible for his foreordained actions, by virtue of being the second cause of these actions, which fall out from his own will. If Calvinism is true, then you are fully responsible for not submitting to true doctrine, even if your actions have been foreordained otherwise.
Granted, I am fully responsible, but do you believe God predestines not only those who will be saved but also those who will believe in Calvinism? Do I have a choice or is the insight to believe in Calvinism irresistible?
Predestination is not a good term to use here. In scripture, predestination refers to God’s decree of man’s ultimate destiny; this contrary to God’s general decrees, or his foreordination of events. Predestination is personal, and refers to the elect and their salvation, whereas foreordination is impersonal, and refers to the reprobate and normal human actions and events. I don’t mean to be pedantic, but predestination implies God’s special interest and care which he holds toward his elect, and the use of the term can imply incorrect things about God’s general decrees of human actions. I mean no insult by any… Read more »
*Facepalm.
It’s a Star Wars reference. Vader is a Calvinist, talks about destiny all the time.
some of us think SBC stands for Synergystic Baprtsit Convention
I am NOT a Baprtsit!
Rick Patrick is a Calvinist.
Well, Dave, I suppose I must be one, since I’m a Baptist and all Baptists are Calvinists. How can I argue with logic like that?
I suspect a five-pointer.
Seven.
oh my goodness, now there’s SEVEN ?
They spell it STULIPS now.
Don’t ask.
*Facepalm myself.
This time I thought you were kidding, but I googled it to make sure, only to find out there really ARE seven:
http://www.desiringgod.org/resource-library/articles/what-does-piper-mean-when-he-says-hes-a-seven-point-calvinist
One last caveat: If Darth Vader says that all Baptists are Calvinists, I will overlook the transgression, since I hate the way he chokes you without actually touching your neck. (I’d much rather be choked manually.)
The General Baptists who got public attention first before the Particulars might resent the statement that all Baptists are Calvinists, and even the Particulars might feel like some of their ancestors died for the truths supposedly belonging to John Calvin before that fellow was ever conceived let alone converted (Yup. some folks in England got burned for believing in Predestination and not practicing infant baptism…some of them were called Lollards). My preferred term is Sovereign Grace. After all, if Grace must reign, then it follows that it must be SOVEREIGN(Roms.5:21). And nothing succeeds like success. In that First Great Awakening… Read more »
” I realize we may be “liberal” in the sense of being generous in our gifts to the poor, but the usual sense of that word theologically is an insult to those with conservative beliefs.”
not sure ‘liberal’ is the word you want here for the sense of being generous in gifts to the poor . . .
try ‘orthodox Christian value’ instead . . . which seems to me to be more in the category of a ‘stable’ (conservative ?), unchanging teaching throughout the Body of Christ.
just some thoughts
Yes, I too resist the label for all of its baggage and yet I have indeed heard the word “liberal” used to describe one who freely and liberally lets go of their possessions. The fact you wish to resist its connotations actually helps make my point. We should be careful not to call people by names they do not like, not only because the names may be unfair, but also because they may be the inaccurate word choice.
Well said, and Merry Christmas!
I just sat on Santa’s lap and gave him my Christmas wish. I hope that everyone will realize the lighthearted nature of Rick’s post and will not get bogged down in a fight about Calvinism on Christmas Adam.
(Christmas Adam is the day before Christmas Eve.)
And there ain’t no Christmas “Steve.”
It just Christmas Adam and Christmas Eve and that’s the way it was meant to be!!
Oh, boy.
wooo hooo….CB is a poet, and nobody knowed it! that’s a good one, CB.
So profound!
Dave,
If you sat on Santa’s lap, he may need knee surgery now. Poor Santa.
David 🙂
Rick, Also, unless I’m mistaken…and if I am mistaken, it will be pointed out by about 14 or 15 people in a matter of minutes…the Founders organization is all about “SBC being Calvinists, and trying to return the SBC BACK to it’s roots.” I’d say that they believe that Baptists are Calvinists, or should be….and, not just any ole Calvinists either…but instead, full fledged, 5 pointers who believe in regeneration before faith kind. So, you definitely had no “straw man” arguement in this post…..”Straw man” is another feller them Calvinists like to bring up all the time. I think he’s… Read more »
Vol,
I once shot a 5 Point Buck.
We stood around lookin’ at ‘im for a while trying to figure out how he got in such a mess and ruined his rack that way.
Finally, one of the boys said, “Let, just keep the body and throw the head away. There ain’t no meat in it anyhow.”
CB,
Where’d you shot him at?
David 🙂
David,
Thanks for buttressing my argument. (My buttress was starting to get sore from all the critics.)
And a Tender Tennessee Christmas to you and yours!
thanks Rick. Its been really, really good so far. Merry Christmas to you and yours, as well.
David
He is ACTUALLY COLDER.
><>”
Rick Patrick – I’m already late to get ready to go to the eastern shore of Virginia to eat in The Island House which is owned by a retired , combat wounded U.S Navy Seal. This is a country place out of the way that you would fit right in to . If I’m correct you are in N. Dakota not far from an old town of German Wolfords and only a little bit away from Teddy Roosevelts home in Medora where he went after both his Mother & Wife died on the same Valentines Day. It looks like N.… Read more »
Jack Wolford,
Have you ever noticed how much more nutty the fruitcakes are that people give you at Christmas time? Subliminal message maybe?
Nonetheless, Merry Christmas to you also Jack Ole Friend, even if you are nuttier than any fruitcake that ever graced a holiday table.
Merry Christmas Jack and God bless that Seal who owns the Island House. Enjoy your time there.
CB,
Jack’s middle name may be “Planters.” I bet he wears one of them one eyed, eyeglasses thangs, too.
David
I put pecans, walnuts, and even shredded coconuts in my fruitcakes. I also load them with assorted very rich ‘flavorings’ that Southern Baptists may not approve of,
so instead of one of my fruitcakes, I would everyone a happy Christmas with their families gathered around them. May the blessings of this season be on all of you who shelter in His Peace.
Christiane – I call the process you have for Fruitcakes embalming which keeps them fresher longer . Your the only one that makes sense on this Blog with pertinent stories and information. Merry Christmas and I still punch up the VW Passat commerical you posted. It even gets funnier with a piece of embalmed fruit cake.
Uh, CB. Rule #1: Friends don’t give friends fruitcake for Christmas. Only your mortal enemies give you a fruitcake.
Lydia,
Works for me. Always has. 🙂
hmmmmmmmmmm….I just got a fruitcake from CB in by Fed Ex?
David 😉
Actually that was from Tim Rogers Vol.
He lost your street address and asked me to forward it to you. 🙂
Jack,
I appreciate your greetings and hope you enjoy a terrific meal in Virginia, the state of my birth in Norfolk 47 years and three days ago. After living two years in Virginia, I spent three years in Hawaii, thirty years in Texas and eleven in Alabama, where I currently reside.
I have never been to North Dakota. I have never been to South Dakota. And I don’t really understand why we need them both.
But I do wish you safe travels and a Merry Christmas!!
Rick – Thank you for your reply and Christmas wishes . I took a chance and missed – Your thinking will ” save the South ” again since you now reside in Alabama that has a flag for both hands. Only one Person was ever right all the time and we crucified Him . Obviously I haven’t left yet but the destination is called Wachapreague , VA – an Indian name and a whole different story. People come in with their hunting clothes still on after a hunt and some wear ties . A good hunting , well manered dog… Read more »
Dave: your Christmas Adam the day before Christmas Eve was funny :), I really think we should adopt as our motto that poem by Markham (was it Edwin?):
Heretic and lout, he drew a circle,
and shut me out.
But love and I had the wit to win, we drew a circle,
and took him in.
I think we need a third party then we can all lose…. 😉
As far as predestination (God’s foundational design) and/or foreknowledge (God looking through time to see who would choose Him) the end results are the same. The same amount of people were saved (elected before the foundation of the world) and the same amout of people were damned (predestined for destruction). Baptist have to believe that there are a certain amount either way. Why is there controversy? Because no one likes God choosing before or after. That is the fallen nature of man. We want to choose but that creates the problem. If we have any part of it we have… Read more »
The greatest things I ever learned in all of my researches were: 1. Predestination is an invitation to begin one’s spiritual pilgrimage. 2. The doctrines of grace are all therapeutic paradoxes. 3. That John Flavel, David Clarkson, and yours truly did and do not agree with CHS about Rev.3:20 not being an evangelistic text. 4. Bob Hadley does not appreciate Baptist History. That volfan must be a fan of the Tenn. Volunteers, a rabid follower of the U. of Tn. My Great Great Grandfather was a grad. of that same institution (so I was told). My friend’s son is a… Read more »
The problem with mysteries is that when we try to wrap our little heads around them, we jumble the word “wrap” and it becomes “warp”.
Greg
Me thinks you get a golden star for the comment of the day on such a special day!
Merry Christmas to ALL!
Guys… it is now 364 days to Christmas Eve 2012… if we get started TODAY we might actually be ready for Christmas next year!
><>”