Morris Chapman, former SBC president and Executive Committee CEO, made a motion last month in Birmingham:
A motion by Morris Chapman of Triune Baptist Church in Arrington, Tenn., to request that the Executive Committee amend the SBC’s Business and Financial Plan where necessary to strengthen the fiscal accountability of the SBC’s entities to the convention.
I don’t know what he had in mind, although I could make some guesses. No one would know more about the issue of the SBC Executive Committee’s Business and Financial plan and the fiscal accountability of SBC entities, or lack thereof, than Morris Chapman. His motion was referred to the Executive Committee where it will receive serious consideration and, presumably, a response will be made at next year’s convention. The goal of his motion was to enhance confidence in the use of Cooperative Program funds.
This was a timely motion and I’m glad he made it.
I suggest that the Executive Committee require, as a part of what our entities report to them annually, the compensation of entity leaders, including salary and housing allowance, retirement contributions, and any employment contract compensation provisions including severance, deferred payments, provision of loans, houses or automobiles, professional services, and the like. The disclosure of compensation would not be the most important part of financial disclosure but in my view would be one way to increase the confidence of the Southern Baptists and SBC churches that fund the entities, buy the books, literature and insurance, and send retirement funds for SBC clergy.
Over the years, I have been asked about this. The last I had any official figures, the compensation levels seems quite reasonable to me. Now, figures and rumors of figures are tossed around the convention, publicly and privately, of pay levels approaching a million dollars annually. I am not asserting that is the case. I don’t know. Any SBC member or church ought to know and not have to speculate
While I trust the trustees, I have more confidence in trustee action that is subject to public scrutiny rather than done in secret. Trustees operate better in the sunlight than in the shadows. Does any Southern Baptists need examples? Surely not.
This is our money. Show us where it goes in this case. The reporting would be similar to what is required for other non-profits and public corporations. Not a big deal.
Some object that this would be personally embarrassing to our entity leaders. Not much of an argument there. We have better entity leadership, across the board, than we have ever had in my years as an SBC pastor. These men should be able to function even if their pay levels were known to all. The lowest paid teacher’s aide in my school system has their name and salary published. I’m not sympathetic to the argument that we would be embarrassing our fine leaders. If the pay is so low that it is embarrassing, then, trustees, raise it. If it is so high that it would be harmful to the confidence of folks in the pulpits and pews, then, trustees, make the case for your highly paid leader.
Disclosure would create conflict among the various entities. This seminary prez is paid a lot less than this other prez, you say? So what? Let trustees make their case.
We have leaders coming from megachurches. We have to be able to pay them at the same level or higher than their church. I don’t care what pay agreement there is between any church and their pastor. That’s a private matter for the members. Trustees should be forced to make their case publicly if this is the argument being used for an SBC entity leaders. I’m not singling out anyone here. We have and have had several leaders who came to denominational positions from large and megachurces.
It’s none of your business. It’s our common, cooperative work. It’s the business of any and all Southern Baptists.
Some of our cooperative work is complex, some of our entities have thousands of employees, and some of our entities are huge enterprises with grave responsibilities. The extraordinary men who have the skills to lead such entities should be paid well and generously. Let’s just see what the figures are.
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We’ve had these discussions before. The responses are predictable but I’ve never understood why pastors making a near-poverty wage, one where everyone in their church and community knows the numbers, spend so much energy arguing that the pay of our highest paid employees be kept secret. If you don’t want to know, fine.
And, it need not be said but I’ll say it anyway: this isn’t an SBC Voices team opinion. It is only that of your humble hacker and plodder, semi-retired pastor and blogger.
FYI, those of you who think we at Voices all share 1 opinion and agree in all things.
1. I did not see this post until it was posted.
2. I disagree strongly with it.
I have written posts explaining why I think this is a bad idea.
William is free here to state his opinion even when it is not mine.
He will agree with me in heaven.
Go for it.
Why would you be opposed to the SBC simply following their business plan.
I generally ignore loaded questions that set the asker up as prosecutor and put me on trial. If you wish to have a conversation, fine. But if you wish to play this game, no thanks.
We suspect Dr. Chapman’s motion is about MUCH more than salary disclosures. But what do we know?
Among my congregants, the CP is coming under increasing criticism, and this is just one reason. They question many of the things CP donations fund. (Especially the ERLC) Recent losses by SBC entities(IMB, Lifeway, etc) that are just now coming to light hasn’t helped the matter either. Is it accurate to say that CP monies have been (and probably still are) being mismanaged? Unwillingness to totally disclose CP spending(especially salaries of those in leadership positions) is a bad look for the SBC and makes it hard to defend the CP. After all, isn’t it God’s money, and we are to… Read more »
I would wager that if your congregation is complaining it is because they have heard YOU complaining.
Am I wrong?
Get the annual stockholder report of any US publicly held corporation. There you will find in excruciating detail the compensation plans for their executives. Seems to me SBC entities should do no less in their report to their ‘stockholders’.
I wasn’t aware we are stockholders?
We are not
Right, that’s why “stockholders” is in quotes. But the convention, as ‘sole member of the corporation’ for all entities IS. My point is that regular old secular corporations, including non-profits, provide this information routinely. SBC entities should be at least as transparent.
The Trustees are given responsibility in this area on behalf of the convention.
Secular corporations have boards too. But they still publicly report. Secular non-profits have boards, they report publicly. Those boards have responsibility too, but their owners and donors expect financial transparency.
Agree here FWIW.
If people do not want to know ok cool
BUT if anyone wants to know they should be able to log into a portal and look it up
JMO
Members of cooperating Southern Baptist churches shall have access to information from the records of Southern Baptist Convention entities regarding income, expenditures, debts, reserves, operating balances, and salary structures.
http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/legal/businessfinancialplan.asp …
the above is from article 14
That’s what the chapman motion was about. I’m not sure how usable the financial reports are that come from the entities. I assume we will get an honest and serious response from the XComm.
The word transparency comes to my mind. The President of US makes a base salary of around $660,000 per year (I don’t think Trump accepts this salary, as Obama, Clinton and Bush did). And, I’m sure DT is not living rent free in the WH and he does use Air-force One.
I strongly believe as I have for the past 30 years, paid leaders in our convention should be fairly compensated based on education, experience and their congregation and what the budget is for the year. Hopefully, the pastors don’t try to negativity Orion as ok.
if they just followed this http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/legal/businessfinancialplan.asp
Has Morris Chapman Publicly shared his salary for all the years he had that position….Even an accurate cumulative figure? Is anyone calling for the compensation of other former leaders adjusted for inflation to compare historical pay? Don’t we get reports of the finances of our entities in the book of reports at the Southern Baptist convention… Which is even available online to anyone who did not attend. William… You’re right we have talked about this before and obviously you and I disagree on this… You stated some things you don’t understand about my position ( although I’m not arrogant enough… Read more »
Dave, I’m not aiming at you or any individual. Busy now but will respond later
I know that. I know we have discussed this before and disagreed – so I thought I would take your bait. 🙂
Nah, just playin’ – Seriously though, I did not take any offense – just took an opportunity to respond and dialog.
Lastly, you are retired – how in the world can you be busy? …. What is Matlock about to expose the *real* killer or something? 😉
https://www.charitywatch.org/top-charity-salaries William Thorton/Tar Dave—– William so glad you brought this subject up. That it has not been addressed is beyond me. The link above shows the top public CEO compensation and it is certainly high for “non profits”. This public disclosure came about a few years ago when most of the CEO pay was a “secret” like the pay of SBC leaders. The pay of the United Way CEO was so out of line there was a public backlash when it was finally revealed to the public. Tarheel Dave, does your church have business meetings? Is the pay of the… Read more »
“Tarheel Dave, does your church have business meetings? Is the pay of the staff of the church available to the church members? Do you think having business meetings and a full accounting of money spent is a good thing? I would not go to a church were the pay of the staff was not disclosed, I mean total compensation . ” Of course we do. We are SBC. I would not have it any other way. I want every red cent that comes into my hands from the church to be accountable and accessible to the membership. *But the SBC… Read more »
Tarheel Dave, The SBC is not a church but it is an organization that is supported by churches and the faithful giving of church members. Should they not have a full accounting as to where their faithful giving is being spent? The trustees can set the total benefit package for SBC leadership but that does not also mean that it should not be public. The trustees of the IMF dropped the ball in my opinion and the trustees are also accountable to the SBC membership. Why do I think that will be an upheaval , perhaps a poor choice of… Read more »
Sometimes the no pay allows this speaker to retain control of intellectual property rights therefore the material is not work product.
So how did you arrive at the $750,000 mark as being too high? Is that subjective or objective? You mentioned total compensation… What is a large portion of whatever the compensation is is actually deferred compensation meaning they get it after retirement? The issue about writing books… And speaking engagements… Do we not want them to do that? Should they be “penalized“ if they are sought after for speaking engagements (meaning they are well respected) and/or good authors? Should the ones who have not written a lot of books or don’t get the big time speaking engagements be paid more… Read more »
Thanks for your comments Steve Newhouse. I agree completely with your points.
The fear of transparency, that people will criticize our entities and employees even more than they do, is one of the more absurd arguments offered. Some are fairly unrestrained in their criticism already. Maybe our entity trustees and CEOs could trust the Lord and tell Southern Baptists what they want to know about the entities that we cooperate to support. Maybe they could trust Southern Baptists rather than a handful of selective trustees whom, as a whole across the board, have repeatedly proved unable to manage our major entities and avoid meltdowns. The argument that we will preserve trust and… Read more »
In an organization where there are no rules or controls on someone’s relative sitting on a trustee board where they are CEO, full salary disclosure is only the beginning of transparency. I’ve worked for Christian educational institutions for most of my career, and disclosure is almost second nature to this business, not just with salaries, but with virtually all other expenses. When people are paying fees for the service you provide you not only want to do an excellent job but they need to be convinced that what they are paying is worthwhile and so they understand when increases in… Read more »
“someone’s relative sitting on a trustee board where they are CEO”
I don’t Remember hearing about that… If that’s the case I would support making a rule to forbid that… As I would support making a rule to forbid current students/faculty/employees from serving on the board of trustees of the seminary/entity they are connected with.
Here are the options as I see them – we can continue to embrace our current system while working at ensuring and erecting appropriate safeguards…and trusting those we elect to be trustees…
Or, we can scrap the trustee system and do something else.
An interesting aspect of this discussion:
“Entities are not a church, so the ‘everyone in the church gets the information’ argument does not count. They don’t have to disclose.”
But then, why is it that SBC entities do not file IRS Form 990 like most non-profits, which includes information on executive compensation?
Oh…Religious Exemption.
Entities are “churches” when it’s convenient and “businesses” when it’s convenient.
Doug, are the entities exempt because they are classified as churches or are they exempt because they are classified as religious institutions… Different animals.
Tarheel Dave, So how we are arguing with semantics? Really. Tell the average SBC member that the SBC leaders should not reveal their compensation because they are part of a religious institution not a church. My pull it out of my hat figure of $750,000 a year is of course subject based on a wild guesstimate , that I hope is way too high. However, it may be low, how can I can I be objective , make a good judgement , about fair compensation when I have no idea what the compensation? Overly generous “delayed” compensation is a legitimate… Read more »
No sir – i’m not arguing semantics here – I’m simply stating what is a fact. Entities are not churches and their leaders are not pastors. Like I said – I’m not opposed – but as Williams article states – if the trustees so choose – they may disclose the info ya’ll want – or not – its up to them. I personally certainly have no real need to know. I’m not a trustee – nor do I have the knowledge or understanding or standing to pretend to determine what is and what is not a proper salary/compensation for an… Read more »
Tarheel Dave , Fair enough , you are solid in your position and I thank you for explaining it to me. I still see no value in the lack of transparency but we have gone though that enough . I am not just curious , I am concerned about the gulf in many aspects between the leadership of the SBC and the average church and its members. I sense that many of the mega Pastors and SBC executives due to their economic , social and cultural status have lost touch with the “average” SBC pew sitter. It happens whenever and… Read more »
Not wanting to go on and on – but these leaders are NOT unaccountable – they Do not not live in lurk in the shadows – They are fully and completely accountable to the trustees and then more to specific committees of trustees that they set up to carry out these duties. That is our system. I suppose we could at a – or several – SBC annual meeting(s) change all of that and make the entities and their leadership directly accountable to the messengers in the room… But I imagine that could be quite messy for a myriad of… Read more »
False argument, my friend. No one is asking for direct supervision of CEOs, merely the disclosure of compensation. Your argument is that even if we knew, we might not be able to do anything about it…so we ought not to know? Come on, bro. Let me know. I’ll cope with the knowledge. You, however, may keep yourself ignorant of the matter if you wish. I’m fine with that. Don’t pull the LIfeWay/not CP thing on me. I know that. It is irrelevant. They are an SBC entity, supported mainly by Southern Baptists. But, hey, it’s tough to argue for secrecy… Read more »
Nothing is secret – you know that. This information is known to those who have the responsibility and need to know.
Its just not known to you guys….that does not make it secret.
Lifeway is Supported by Southern Baptists? So. It’s also supported by Pentecostals and Presbyterians and…
As for supervision – its a practical matter – as i’m not sure anyone can determine an adequate, fair, and reasonable compensation package for someone they are not supervising and equipped with Appropriate knowledge and understanding to make the determination.
It doesnt seem like Tarheel Dave is having a tough time arguing his case.
The SBC has lived it’s last days of blind trust and accountability. As someone who has challenged the system on a number of fronts and found the executive leaders non transparent in their dealings and at times, there was outright deception. Others knew this as well but it was “go along to get along.” People might feel that things are wrong but they won’t lose their paycheck or position to challenge the wrong. In the meantime, God has taken His blessing/favor off the SBC and all the meetings and bus tours in the world won’t remedy the loss of His… Read more »
I agree completely with William Thornton’s post and Morris Chapman’s motion. If the SBC wants to be true, faithful stewards of the Cooperative Program, we must be financially transparent as an overall organization. Have no secrets. Require SBC entities to submit an IRS 990 report listing their CEO or President’s salary to an independent evaluator as all major nonprofits do, Guidestar. Be an open book. In my humble opinion, it is arrogant for SBC leaders to say the average person in the pew does not need to know the high cost of the entity head’s salary. Turn the flood lights… Read more »
Some of us are aware of the call for churches to be required to file 990s. Bad idea. Our entities are an integral part of our denominational work and should not be required by gummit to file 990s…but the more secrecy we see the more I’m open to considering that. Don’t think it is a possibility, though.
No one has raised it but the EFCA is fairly worthless as a third party financial watchdog.
How many average , loyal and faithful SBC members do you think know about the lack of transparency at in the SBC at the leadership level? Can the Pastors here make an estimate of how many of their congregation know that the pay packages of SBC leaders are not public information? How many average SBC members are aware of the financial crisis of IMF , brought about by bad management and under the trustees? My point is, if the issues of non transparency and the direction on the SBC on the national level becomes common knowledge among the SBC members… Read more »
In fairness to Tom Cruise , the IMF is in fine financial shape, the IMB was the one with the problem. Even the IMF stars salary is public knowledge if one cares to find out.
I’d say most members don’t care. They don’t think about it. And if they were asked, they probably assume the trustees have it covered.
David Griffin, tell a few people the present situation and see what response you get. I think you will be surprised.
Right. If we went to our members and told them we thought there were a lot of problems in the sbc, they would then be concerned or disappointed. But most people in Baptist churches dont care. I’d be surprised if most people in my church could name an entity head or the current sbc president. They care about the stuff going on in the local church, and are encouraged when they see the videos about the ministry work going on at IBM and namb. But to say a lot of people are concerned or care about any of this in… Read more »
Ok. We know what that demand is….”tell us the details of the execs pay” what we have not heard is the why. Why do you want to know? Please Don’t give me the already heard “transparency” (while its good sounding its actually a rather vague answer) – i’d like to hear if there are any other reasons why this demand is being made. I’ve asked this before ( and still have not received an answer) but why are there no articles written or complaints made to pastors to demand the salary details of ALL entity employees? Why does no one… Read more »
That’s it. Make the folks who pay the bills justify why they have the nerve to ask for transparency.
to turn around a phrase in jest….
I understand it is hard to justify wanting to know information that is none of your responsibility or business to know. 😉
It is also duly noted that, again, you did not answer any of the questions….C’mon William – why are you not demanding to know what Joe Q Janitor makes?
Enquiring Minds want to know…
I don’t come from a church where we see every dollar and second guess every decision. I have little confidence that salary disclosure in the SBC will be a help to the church or her mission.
Yeah…I’m not interested in janitor pay. Irrelevant. But no trustee will make the argument that you are making.
I’ll say again: it should be explained to the folks who pay the bills why CEO pay is kept secret from them and the folks who pay the bills never have to apologize for asking questions. They works for us. We don’t work for them.
William, I really don’t think anything that is said will encourage transparency outside a complete erosion of funds and trust. As long as churches blindly send money it will be spent in a way of their choosing. Call me skeptical but for Tarheel Dave to say that CEO’s of these entities have trustees to hold them accountable is quite laughable. The trustees in most of the Baptist schools, seminaries, and organizations are either in the dark or complicit by their silence of actions going on in Christian institutions. I think the last two years alone are examples enough. Christians, not… Read more »
“They works for us. We don’t work for them.”
1. No is saying we work for them. Looks like a false argument to me there, buddy.
2. Actually they do not work for me and you.
Janitor pay is certainly irrelevant If the employees of the entities “work for you” and you “pay the bills”… I’m asking again why is it important for you to solely to know what the executives make…. But its somehow totally insignificant and “Irrelevant“ what other people “you pay” Make?
*janitor pay is certainly *not* irrelevant…..
Tarheel- I’m a state university employee. The newspaper in my city prints the salaries of every university employee every year. So, as a guy who has had his salary exposed his entire life, what is the problem with telling us what these people make?
Mark, As a pastor – mine is public too (to those whom I am accountable ) – my wife was a public school teacher for many years and, as you described, her’s was too. I did not say – have never said – it’d be *wrong* to reveal the details of compensation with regard to every entity employee – i am NOT opposed to that in and if itself….. Honestly though, don’t think its “good” to exhibit *selective* demands of “transparency” (only execs) and demand info that under our system is not something you Or I have a “right” to… Read more »
Why would it be a problem to disclose the whole salary structure of an entity?
Having a trustee board made up of individuals put there by the strong suggestion or recommendation of the agency head is not out of the realm of possibility. It happened at Southwestern and at Southeastern.. There’s nothing to prevent a relative of an entity head or employee from serving on a trustee board either. “Trust the trustees” hasn’t always worked out.
Yeah, i commented earlier that theres tweaks (like the ones you mentioned) that would be helpful.
One day, and I don’t think that day is here but I have no way of knowing, one of the SBC entities will be led by a CEO whose compensation (salary + housing + retirement + perks like auto) will be over a million dollar a year. I don’t think we are far from that but, again, I don’t have anything but what others have speculated about.
Trust the Lord. Tell Southern Baptists.
…and, this is my opinion, not that of the other outstanding brethren here at SBCV. I said that in the OP and Dave Miller quickly said the same thing. One day, this side of heaven, he will be forced by circumstances come over to my view of this.
The CP is in a long time funk. Southern Baptists have always figured out a way to make things worse rather than better. In five years, I predict, there will be new train wrecks and the average CP will be hovering around 4 percent.
…but maybe Ronnie Floyd has a plan.
You are saying we always find ways to make things worse while at the same time declaring that we need to know what entity heads make which could lead to another controversy.
Yes a new painted bus and Nationwide listening session will fix all the problems. It won’t take five years for what you said William a just one more good scandal in the SBC and people finally say enough is enough.
I dont think a bus or a listening session will fix our problems. I also don’t think knowing what our entity heads are paid will fix our problems. We need widespread repentance in my church and yours and everyone else’s. Widespread prayer, evangelism, and living out the Christian life before our neighbors in love. This issue is a non issue in comparison to the things that really matter. I’m not saying we shouldn’t discuss it. Just that it doesn’t rank in comparison to our real problems. As for leaving the sbc, fine. But that also wont fix the issues that… Read more »
This is what I am considering and praying about. I am very conflicted about what to do. Right now , my thought is to leave my church family and go to a non SBC church. I am being very slow and deliberate in my decision making as this is a big issue to me. I have absolutely no problems or issues with my home church. Pastor and staff are good , hard working people whose pay is in range within a middle income family in our county. The Christian School teachers in our school are underpaid and their benefits meager.… Read more »
David Griffin/Tar heel, David, of course I agree with you that the individual priority of living the good Christian life, witnessing and spreading the Gospel is the main focus . However as you say , it does not have to be accomplished in a SBC affiliated church, we agree on that. However, this is not a non – issue as I have stated above. I do not know the “root” issues that are the problem you attribute to the SBC churches. My home church are faithful and attempt to live a good Christian life and certainly are loyal to the… Read more »
Steve, I don’t see any of this as a deal breaker for my being SBC. The two mission boards do great work. The CP is imperfect but there’s no substitute. We’ve never had better leadership than we have now. Sure, there are areas I’d like to see change and griping is an SBC birthright.
I’m here for the duration.
William Thornton, I would expect no less from you and many others on this site. I absolutely understand and thank the good Lord there are so many good and faithful preachers.
I am being as honest and open as I can Thank you for your thoughts and comments. Surely if good , concerned people highlight these issues to the SBC , they will be addressed. That is my hope and prayer. Like I said I am struggling, with my wife definitely on the stay where we are side. Thanks to all.
Amen and Amen, William.
David Griffin, I obviously was not serious about a painted bus and listening sessions. This has been done over and over during my years in the SBC to absolutely no positive affect, but Baptist like to do something that somehow justify they are trying something. Sadly, the programs, buses, new evangelism emphasis all skirt around the true need, repentance and transparency. This won’t happen because light shines in the darkness and who wants to admit pride, lust, control, anger, and the like. I say this as I humbly tried to get national executives to address issues that now have become… Read more »
I am a layman and have been an active member of SBC churches for 60 plus years and have never heard anyone discuss or ask questions about this subject. It seems like the only value of this would be to promote jealousy. One example of this is in this discussion. Someone has already decided without any facts or information that would be needed to define competitive compensation of what is or is not appropriate compensation. This is a good example of the negative outcomes that disclosure could bring. Trustees are the closest to the situation and have the responsibility to… Read more »
Ron, As I have certainly been active on this topic stating my views and concerns I guess I have done a poor job of explaining my position and why I have the opinion I do on this lack of transparency. My opinion on this has absolutely nothing to do with jealousy or promoting it. If the trustees under the present system believe that an entity head should receive a benefit package of ? whatever amount why is it not available to the SBC members. I cannot under the present system base any opinion on fact or information as I have… Read more »
Thanks for the insight.
Our leaders are accountable within the Trustee system that our members have set up through their elected messengers.
“The tone is the leadership is above accountability to the members. The present system protects that ” You might find more agreement, even among us who think that this information is best kept with those who have responsibility to do it, If that were the crux of your argument. Make recommendations to better the system (or scrap it and start over) – Presently though what you’re doing is demanding something that our system does not mandate or allow for. Myself, Ron and others on “the same side” (we are not enemies!) in this discussion have suggested in this thread several… Read more »
Years ago we were in a meeting with the treasurer at the IMB. He said that he received calls every week from folks demanding to know what we got paid as career missionaries. He told us that he figured that since half the people responded to him with, ‘that’s way too much’ and half with ‘how can they live on that little’ that the pay package was about right. I’m afraid that that will be the reaction no matter what the numbers are so I suspect that that is why the current powers that be don’t see any value in… Read more »