Morris Chapman, former SBC president and Executive Committee CEO, made a motion last month in Birmingham:
A motion by Morris Chapman of Triune Baptist Church in Arrington, Tenn., to request that the Executive Committee amend the SBC’s Business and Financial Plan where necessary to strengthen the fiscal accountability of the SBC’s entities to the convention.
I don’t know what he had in mind, although I could make some guesses. No one would know more about the issue of the SBC Executive Committee’s Business and Financial plan and the fiscal accountability of SBC entities, or lack thereof, than Morris Chapman. His motion was referred to the Executive Committee where it will receive serious consideration and, presumably, a response will be made at next year’s convention. The goal of his motion was to enhance confidence in the use of Cooperative Program funds.
This was a timely motion and I’m glad he made it.
I suggest that the Executive Committee require, as a part of what our entities report to them annually, the compensation of entity leaders, including salary and housing allowance, retirement contributions, and any employment contract compensation provisions including severance, deferred payments, provision of loans, houses or automobiles, professional services, and the like. The disclosure of compensation would not be the most important part of financial disclosure but in my view would be one way to increase the confidence of the Southern Baptists and SBC churches that fund the entities, buy the books, literature and insurance, and send retirement funds for SBC clergy.
Over the years, I have been asked about this. The last I had any official figures, the compensation levels seems quite reasonable to me. Now, figures and rumors of figures are tossed around the convention, publicly and privately, of pay levels approaching a million dollars annually. I am not asserting that is the case. I don’t know. Any SBC member or church ought to know and not have to speculate
While I trust the trustees, I have more confidence in trustee action that is subject to public scrutiny rather than done in secret. Trustees operate better in the sunlight than in the shadows. Does any Southern Baptists need examples? Surely not.
This is our money. Show us where it goes in this case. The reporting would be similar to what is required for other non-profits and public corporations. Not a big deal.
Some object that this would be personally embarrassing to our entity leaders. Not much of an argument there. We have better entity leadership, across the board, than we have ever had in my years as an SBC pastor. These men should be able to function even if their pay levels were known to all. The lowest paid teacher’s aide in my school system has their name and salary published. I’m not sympathetic to the argument that we would be embarrassing our fine leaders. If the pay is so low that it is embarrassing, then, trustees, raise it. If it is so high that it would be harmful to the confidence of folks in the pulpits and pews, then, trustees, make the case for your highly paid leader.
Disclosure would create conflict among the various entities. This seminary prez is paid a lot less than this other prez, you say? So what? Let trustees make their case.
We have leaders coming from megachurches. We have to be able to pay them at the same level or higher than their church. I don’t care what pay agreement there is between any church and their pastor. That’s a private matter for the members. Trustees should be forced to make their case publicly if this is the argument being used for an SBC entity leaders. I’m not singling out anyone here. We have and have had several leaders who came to denominational positions from large and megachurces.
It’s none of your business. It’s our common, cooperative work. It’s the business of any and all Southern Baptists.
Some of our cooperative work is complex, some of our entities have thousands of employees, and some of our entities are huge enterprises with grave responsibilities. The extraordinary men who have the skills to lead such entities should be paid well and generously. Let’s just see what the figures are.
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We’ve had these discussions before. The responses are predictable but I’ve never understood why pastors making a near-poverty wage, one where everyone in their church and community knows the numbers, spend so much energy arguing that the pay of our highest paid employees be kept secret. If you don’t want to know, fine.
And, it need not be said but I’ll say it anyway: this isn’t an SBC Voices team opinion. It is only that of your humble hacker and plodder, semi-retired pastor and blogger.
FYI, those of you who think we at Voices all share 1 opinion and agree in all things.
1. I did not see this post until it was posted.
2. I disagree strongly with it.
I have written posts explaining why I think this is a bad idea.
William is free here to state his opinion even when it is not mine.
He will agree with me in heaven.
Go for it.
Why would you be opposed to the SBC simply following their business plan.
I generally ignore loaded questions that set the asker up as prosecutor and put me on trial. If you wish to have a conversation, fine. But if you wish to play this game, no thanks.
We suspect Dr. Chapman’s motion is about MUCH more than salary disclosures. But what do we know?
Among my congregants, the CP is coming under increasing criticism, and this is just one reason. They question many of the things CP donations fund. (Especially the ERLC) Recent losses by SBC entities(IMB, Lifeway, etc) that are just now coming to light hasn’t helped the matter either. Is it accurate to say that CP monies have been (and probably still are) being mismanaged? Unwillingness to totally disclose CP spending(especially salaries of those in leadership positions) is a bad look for the SBC and makes it hard to defend the CP.
After all, isn’t it God’s money, and we are to be good stewards of it?
JMHO.
m
I would wager that if your congregation is complaining it is because they have heard YOU complaining.
Am I wrong?
Get the annual stockholder report of any US publicly held corporation. There you will find in excruciating detail the compensation plans for their executives. Seems to me SBC entities should do no less in their report to their ‘stockholders’.
I wasn’t aware we are stockholders?
We are not
Right, that’s why “stockholders” is in quotes. But the convention, as ‘sole member of the corporation’ for all entities IS. My point is that regular old secular corporations, including non-profits, provide this information routinely. SBC entities should be at least as transparent.
The Trustees are given responsibility in this area on behalf of the convention.
Secular corporations have boards too. But they still publicly report. Secular non-profits have boards, they report publicly. Those boards have responsibility too, but their owners and donors expect financial transparency.
Agree here FWIW.
If people do not want to know ok cool
BUT if anyone wants to know they should be able to log into a portal and look it up
JMO
Members of cooperating Southern Baptist churches shall have access to information from the records of Southern Baptist Convention entities regarding income, expenditures, debts, reserves, operating balances, and salary structures.
http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/legal/businessfinancialplan.asp …
the above is from article 14
That’s what the chapman motion was about. I’m not sure how usable the financial reports are that come from the entities. I assume we will get an honest and serious response from the XComm.
The word transparency comes to my mind. The President of US makes a base salary of around $660,000 per year (I don’t think Trump accepts this salary, as Obama, Clinton and Bush did). And, I’m sure DT is not living rent free in the WH and he does use Air-force One.
I strongly believe as I have for the past 30 years, paid leaders in our convention should be fairly compensated based on education, experience and their congregation and what the budget is for the year. Hopefully, the pastors don’t try to negativity Orion as ok.
if they just followed this http://www.sbc.net/aboutus/legal/businessfinancialplan.asp
Has Morris Chapman Publicly shared his salary for all the years he had that position….Even an accurate cumulative figure?
Is anyone calling for the compensation of other former leaders adjusted for inflation to compare historical pay?
Don’t we get reports of the finances of our entities in the book of reports at the Southern Baptist convention… Which is even available online to anyone who did not attend.
William… You’re right we have talked about this before and obviously you and I disagree on this… You stated some things you don’t understand about my position ( although I’m not arrogant enough to think I was the one you were actually referring to… There are others who feel the same as either) … I’ll state something I don’t understand about yours… How in the world can someone with your experience in the “blogosphere” and the inner workings of such – ever really think that such “transparency“ would increase trust and bring about civil dialogue?
In example – i think releasing such intricate details of execs compensation would just allow in my opinion people to run to their corners…
“Well I like this entity head so I’m fine with him making X number of dollars but that guy over there he should not make half that!”
“ well I’m a pastor out here working hard and all that Guy does is sit in the office at the seminary and he’s making that much?!”
Do you really think that releasing this information will increase trust and even accountability… Or will instead exacerbate tensions that are already existant?
I stand pretty firm it will be the latter.
Beaides who among us really understands the reasoning behind salaries for seminary presidents… I mean if these guys are personally responsible for raising and bringing in millions upon millions of dollars every year… How does One then determine “well he’s not worth what he’s getting paid!”?
I just see many more downsides than upsides to publicly releasing that information.
Dave, I’m not aiming at you or any individual. Busy now but will respond later
I know that. I know we have discussed this before and disagreed – so I thought I would take your bait. 🙂
Nah, just playin’ – Seriously though, I did not take any offense – just took an opportunity to respond and dialog.
Lastly, you are retired – how in the world can you be busy? …. What is Matlock about to expose the *real* killer or something? 😉
https://www.charitywatch.org/top-charity-salaries
William Thorton/Tar Dave—– William so glad you brought this subject up. That it has not been addressed is beyond me. The link above shows the top public CEO compensation and it is certainly high for “non profits”. This public disclosure came about a few years ago when most of the CEO pay was a “secret” like the pay of SBC leaders. The pay of the United Way CEO was so out of line there was a public backlash when it was finally revealed to the public.
Tarheel Dave, does your church have business meetings? Is the pay of the staff of the church available to the church members? Do you think having business meetings and a full accounting of money spent is a good thing? I would not go to a church were the pay of the staff was not disclosed, I mean total compensation .
I have no “corner” to run to. I am very frustrated with the lack of transparency at the SBC leadership level on many fronts. Why? Total compensation and time allotted to work on personal projects such as books and inter acting with outside organizations for self promotion.
I believe when not if the full pay, benefits, perks and workload of the executives of the SBC is revealed it will be a major shock and lead to an upheaval. I believe the issue is that serious.
The United Way, Red Cross and all the other famous private non profits only came clean with their executive compensation when the pressure from the public demanded it and donations dropped sharply. I believe that is what it will take to force the SBC to just act in a professional forget Christian value manner and disclosure where the money of the faithful givers is going.
For this and a few other SBC leadership issues I am very upset with the direction of the SBC on the national level. At least we know what the prosperity preachers money is going for the most part. How can there be serious opposition to full honest disclosure?
“Tarheel Dave, does your church have business meetings? Is the pay of the staff of the church available to the church members? Do you think having business meetings and a full accounting of money spent is a good thing? I would not go to a church were the pay of the staff was not disclosed, I mean total compensation . ”
Of course we do. We are SBC. I would not have it any other way. I want every red cent that comes into my hands from the church to be accountable and accessible to the membership.
*But the SBC is not a church – and Seminary Presidents are not pastors.*
(Of course we are all accountable to God – goes without saying in this discussion) As a pastor I am accountable to the members of my church and to them only. That is the SBC way. The seminary Presidents are accountable to the trustees (who are elected by messengers) and them only. That too, is the SBC way.
“I believe when, not if, the full pay, benefits, perks and workload of the executives of the SBC is revealed it will be a major shock and lead to an upheaval”
Why do you think that would be?
Plus when we are talking about most of the entities (perhaps Ronnie Floyd’s position would be different) the vast majority of income and therefore resources for compensation come from many other sources than the Co_op program….no? What if the Seminaries were to say that money to pay execs does not come from Co_Op sources?
Tarheel Dave, The SBC is not a church but it is an organization that is supported by churches and the faithful giving of church members. Should they not have a full accounting as to where their faithful giving is being spent? The trustees can set the total benefit package for SBC leadership but that does not also mean that it should not be public. The trustees of the IMF dropped the ball in my opinion and the trustees are also accountable to the SBC membership.
Why do I think that will be an upheaval , perhaps a poor choice of words, shock will be better and that shock may lead to upheaval. In addition to base salary the SBC entity heads receive per diem pay for travel and expenses for seminars, training etc. Retirement, health care and perhaps transportation allowance are part of a total comp package. What if the entity heads make $500,000 year in salary, plus travel and per diem expenses, plus transportation allowance, plus experience and COLA allowance, the total compensation a year is $750,000 per executive ? Would that be considered just and fair to the SBC members who pay the salaries? I personally do not think so. What about books and personal profit making enterprises done on the SBC dime? Plus the bonus of the SBC position being a gateway to personal profit venues. Joel Osteen takes no salary from his church, his money comes from public appearances, books, TV and other “personal” revenue streams based on his position. At least he is honest on where he is getting his revenue from and is transparent as far as church giving is concerned. I am trying to show why a lay person has good reason to want transparency. I see no negative in true transparency and no positive in hiding any aspect of SBC financial transactions.
The charities in my link above only made their CEO and executive pay public when they were forced to. If the secular non profit organizations feel they must make public their expenses why does the SBC think it is okay not to.
Honestly, I do not know all the sources of SBC revenue but it is still SBC revenue not trustee and leadership revenue.
Sometimes the no pay allows this speaker to retain control of intellectual property rights therefore the material is not work product.
So how did you arrive at the $750,000 mark as being too high?
Is that subjective or objective?
You mentioned total compensation… What is a large portion of whatever the compensation is is actually deferred compensation meaning they get it after retirement?
The issue about writing books… And speaking engagements… Do we not want them to do that? Should they be “penalized“ if they are sought after for speaking engagements (meaning they are well respected) and/or good authors?
Should the ones who have not written a lot of books or don’t get the big time speaking engagements be paid more than the others for that reason?
There are at least 1 million other questions and factors that would need to go into compensation arrangements… Are we sitting in the blogosphere… Or are members sitting in the pews… Informed enough and educated enough on these issues to give objective input?
I am not opposed to them releasing this information… If that’s with the trustees want to do I’m fine with that… I just see a lot of potential pitfalls in doing so that I hope are fully considered.
Thanks for your comments Steve Newhouse. I agree completely with your points.
The fear of transparency, that people will criticize our entities and employees even more than they do, is one of the more absurd arguments offered. Some are fairly unrestrained in their criticism already. Maybe our entity trustees and CEOs could trust the Lord and tell Southern Baptists what they want to know about the entities that we cooperate to support. Maybe they could trust Southern Baptists rather than a handful of selective trustees whom, as a whole across the board, have repeatedly proved unable to manage our major entities and avoid meltdowns.
The argument that we will preserve trust and accountability by maintaining secrecy is patently ridiculous. It presumes that Southern Baptists are too dumb to know what entity heads should make. It ignores repeated, major entity failures. It presumes Southern Baptists to be untrustworthy of knowing what they pay leaders.
Who are we protecting here? Do the handful of entity leaders need secrecy for their compensation? Who is harmed by greater transparency from these entities? Are these men so fragile that disclosure of their compensation would harm them? Are trustees so inept that they fear having to justify the compensation levels for their CEOs to Southern Baptists who pay the bills? Why is it a problem for folks in the pews who give their money to know where it goes?
Institutions always desire secrecy. It is not our friend, though.
Here’s a settled fact: no one has to give to the Cooperative Program (or buy LifeWay materials, or put their retirement or insurance with GuideStone). It is a disgrace that Southern Baptists are subjected to secrecy in this area. There are no good reasons for it and, respectfully, you haven’t offered any decent argument other than that greater transparency will lead to greater mistrust and greater tensions. Let’s try it and see where it goes.
People always argue for secrecy and against openness. If we’ve learned anything it is that we operate better in the sunlight than the shadows.
…but I’m a renegade hacker in the SBC hinterlands.
___________
FYI, one of the volunteer jobs I acquired in retirement is to be in charge, by default, of our church’s monthly food distribution, which was yesterday. Full disclosure: I get paid maybe a free bottle of water or two from the church refrigerator.
In an organization where there are no rules or controls on someone’s relative sitting on a trustee board where they are CEO, full salary disclosure is only the beginning of transparency. I’ve worked for Christian educational institutions for most of my career, and disclosure is almost second nature to this business, not just with salaries, but with virtually all other expenses. When people are paying fees for the service you provide you not only want to do an excellent job but they need to be convinced that what they are paying is worthwhile and so they understand when increases in expenses justify increases in costs.
“someone’s relative sitting on a trustee board where they are CEO”
I don’t Remember hearing about that… If that’s the case I would support making a rule to forbid that… As I would support making a rule to forbid current students/faculty/employees from serving on the board of trustees of the seminary/entity they are connected with.
Here are the options as I see them – we can continue to embrace our current system while working at ensuring and erecting appropriate safeguards…and trusting those we elect to be trustees…
Or, we can scrap the trustee system and do something else.
An interesting aspect of this discussion:
“Entities are not a church, so the ‘everyone in the church gets the information’ argument does not count. They don’t have to disclose.”
But then, why is it that SBC entities do not file IRS Form 990 like most non-profits, which includes information on executive compensation?
Oh…Religious Exemption.
Entities are “churches” when it’s convenient and “businesses” when it’s convenient.
Doug, are the entities exempt because they are classified as churches or are they exempt because they are classified as religious institutions… Different animals.
Tarheel Dave, So how we are arguing with semantics? Really. Tell the average SBC member that the SBC leaders should not reveal their compensation because they are part of a religious institution not a church.
My pull it out of my hat figure of $750,000 a year is of course subject based on a wild guesstimate , that I hope is way too high. However, it may be low, how can I can I be objective , make a good judgement , about fair compensation when I have no idea what the compensation?
Overly generous “delayed” compensation is a legitimate issue, is it not. What if the SBC is matching 20% of salary into a 401K or whatever retirement fund , should not the SBC members at least be aware of it? How about vacation time, sick leave and personal time including sabbaticals ? How about jaunts to SBC organizations , like Israel? Are family members allowed to go on the trips? Point is , who knows? If employees are make a million year that is great if that is with the knowledge and therefore the consent of the bill payers.
Work product developing from resources and time spent on duty is an issue. I am not on a crusade to deny fair and earned pay to SBC leaders, it should just be made public as should any financial issue.
Your question about the blogosphere or the many venues available changes nothing. I started visiting SBC Voices to learn and perhaps to aid me in keeping a fresh and good perspective on SBC issues. How serious is the transparency issue, I believe very serious. I have been an supporter of the SBC since age 22 and am now 71. I have spoken to my Pastor about my concerns but his answer is that it will be address by the convention. When? Now I am torn , the vast majority of my Bible study class and actually the entire church, trust the leadership of the SBC. I do not bring up my concerns about transparency to anyone other than Pastor as I do not want to be disruptive. This is a serious issue and to down play it is not good for the SBC. The majority of SBC members are not aware of the recent financial problem of the SBC as they are only involved locally and trust their monies are being spent wisely.
The charities listed in my link above pay a very generous salary to their leaders , I would not give my money to some on that list as it is just way over the top for a “non profit” to use financial resources that way.
It does not matter what the blogsphere, the general public, the NYT, CNN, Fox or anyone thinks about the compensation of SBC leaders , the only ones that have a say about it should be the members who support the SBC, many at great financial burden to themselves.
I think of my Grandmother going to great pains to put enough aside to tithe, give to Lottie , Annie and help out on VBS supplies on her limited income. She comes to my mind often when finances come up at the local, state or national level.
No sir – i’m not arguing semantics here – I’m simply stating what is a fact.
Entities are not churches and their leaders are not pastors.
Like I said – I’m not opposed – but as Williams article states – if the trustees so choose – they may disclose the info ya’ll want – or not – its up to them.
I personally certainly have no real need to know. I’m not a trustee – nor do I have the knowledge or understanding or standing to pretend to determine what is and what is not a proper salary/compensation for an entity head – therefore, on the “good side” my knowing could only possibly satisfy a mere curiousity and little if anything else on the “bad side” it could stoke fleshly and worldly tendancies….no thanks.
But to each his own, I reckon.
Tarheel Dave , Fair enough , you are solid in your position and I thank you for explaining it to me. I still see no value in the lack of transparency but we have gone though that enough . I am not just curious , I am concerned about the gulf in many aspects between the leadership of the SBC and the average church and its members.
I sense that many of the mega Pastors and SBC executives due to their economic , social and cultural status have lost touch with the “average” SBC pew sitter. It happens whenever and wherever people achieve unaccountable power and position.
God Bless the “average” SBC Pastor who goes about his calling without regard to attaining a middle class economic payment, to provide for his family. So again this is a major concern for me personally and I am still struggling with it as well as some other issues. As a layperson who is on several church committees , I am having a hard time keeping my questioning thoughts to myself. Who ever said ignorance is bliss , many have got it right. I was better off several years ago when I knew very little about SBC national workings. I will just state again this is not good for the future of the SBC, just not real need for the lack of transparency.
Not wanting to go on and on – but these leaders are NOT unaccountable – they Do not not live in lurk in the shadows – They are fully and completely accountable to the trustees and then more to specific committees of trustees that they set up to carry out these duties.
That is our system. I suppose we could at a – or several – SBC annual meeting(s) change all of that and make the entities and their leadership directly accountable to the messengers in the room… But I imagine that could be quite messy for a myriad of legal reasons not ro mention an impossibility with thousands of Baptists… You’ve heard the saying that if there are three Baptist in the room there are at least six opinions… Multiply that one out for fun….haha.
Questions: What exactly would you plan to do if you find out what you want to know and feel that the pay is too much?
What if after lots of comments on blogs, lots of articles on blogs, lots of articles in state newspapers , even lots of complaints to your pastor stating your objection the compensation that the trustees continue to authorize that you subjectively, from a great distance, think is too high?
I am confident – obviously don’t know for sure… But feel very confident that each of the seminary heads, for example, are personally “bring in” though direct fundraising and other intangibles – every year many times over their compensation. ( Of course we’ve got some new guys in position now… So that may not yet be true for them).
I expect the same is true for Dr. Hawkins at Guidestone as well… Which again I do not know – but if I were a betting man – I might say he is likely the highest paid of all of them.
The Lifeway CEO is not paid at all in any way through the SBC cooperative program allocation budget as Lifeway does not receive any… In fact they typically make a donation to the Cooperative Program.
I know the ethics and religious liberty commission and its leaders are the brunt of lots of criticism… But, the ERLC receives such a small portion of the cooperative program allocation budget that I’m not sure it’s worth getting all spun up about (from a Financial standpoint) .
Lastly, I will state that if we have reasonable suspicion of malfeasance or misappropriation… which again would be the responsibility of the trustees to ensure against… That certainly should be made public both to “us” and law enforcement … But is far as I know that’s not what we’re talking about here… The way I understand what you and others here are asking for is simply to know the details of what people are paid.
False argument, my friend. No one is asking for direct supervision of CEOs, merely the disclosure of compensation.
Your argument is that even if we knew, we might not be able to do anything about it…so we ought not to know? Come on, bro. Let me know. I’ll cope with the knowledge. You, however, may keep yourself ignorant of the matter if you wish. I’m fine with that.
Don’t pull the LIfeWay/not CP thing on me. I know that. It is irrelevant. They are an SBC entity, supported mainly by Southern Baptists.
But, hey, it’s tough to argue for secrecy instead of transparency.
My hope is that the EC considers this along with whatever else Morris Chapman had in mind when he made that motion.
Nothing is secret – you know that. This information is known to those who have the responsibility and need to know.
Its just not known to you guys….that does not make it secret.
Lifeway is Supported by Southern Baptists? So. It’s also supported by Pentecostals and Presbyterians and…
As for supervision – its a practical matter – as i’m not sure anyone can determine an adequate, fair, and reasonable compensation package for someone they are not supervising and equipped with Appropriate knowledge and understanding to make the determination.
It doesnt seem like Tarheel Dave is having a tough time arguing his case.
The SBC has lived it’s last days of blind trust and accountability. As someone who has challenged the system on a number of fronts and found the executive leaders non transparent in their dealings and at times, there was outright deception. Others knew this as well but it was “go along to get along.” People might feel that things are wrong but they won’t lose their paycheck or position to challenge the wrong. In the meantime, God has taken His blessing/favor off the SBC and all the meetings and bus tours in the world won’t remedy the loss of His presence.
I agree completely with William Thornton’s post and Morris Chapman’s motion. If the SBC wants to be true, faithful stewards of the Cooperative Program, we must be financially transparent as an overall organization. Have no secrets. Require SBC entities to submit an IRS 990 report listing their CEO or President’s salary to an independent evaluator as all major nonprofits do, Guidestar. Be an open book. In my humble opinion, it is arrogant for SBC leaders to say the average person in the pew does not need to know the high cost of the entity head’s salary. Turn the flood lights on where the CP money is going. Eliminate the hero worship of our agency heads. Hold accountable the trustees’ financial fiduciary oversight as well.
I work for a large Christ-centered nonprofit and we actively focus on transparency to our board and our donors. We are an open book to Guidestar and follow Charity Navigator’s direction on financial transparency. Charity Navigator has information on all 1.6 million nonprofits registered in the U.S. They help people give to charities with confidence and shine a light on truly effective organizations. https://www.charitynavigator.org/index.cfm?bay=content.view&cpid=5593
Some of us are aware of the call for churches to be required to file 990s. Bad idea. Our entities are an integral part of our denominational work and should not be required by gummit to file 990s…but the more secrecy we see the more I’m open to considering that. Don’t think it is a possibility, though.
No one has raised it but the EFCA is fairly worthless as a third party financial watchdog.
How many average , loyal and faithful SBC members do you think know about the lack of transparency at in the SBC at the leadership level? Can the Pastors here make an estimate of how many of their congregation know that the pay packages of SBC leaders are not public information? How many average SBC members are aware of the financial crisis of IMF , brought about by bad management and under the trustees?
My point is, if the issues of non transparency and the direction on the SBC on the national level becomes common knowledge among the SBC members who sit in the pews and pay the bills , it will be a major crisis. I fear there will be a split that cannot be healed. The average SBC trust his Pastor, his church leadership and assumes that the SBC finances are handled similar to the famous business meetings. Again, this is representative of the gap between the leaders and the lay people at the state and national level.
If the majority of SBC members knew about the lack of transparency and all that entails they would be upset . If I cannot justify it in my mind and with any given rationale, I do not believe the average members would think that the non transparency serves any good purpose and will be totally disappointed with the SBC leadership .
At least the followers of the prosperity preachers know they are financing jets, mansions and a lifestyle that is not hidden from publicity . That is their right and they trust their leaders. ,
What do we know? oh, the trustees are handling it like they did the IMB financial oversight. This is a time bomb for the SBC. Why it is taken so lightly is beyond me.
In fairness to Tom Cruise , the IMF is in fine financial shape, the IMB was the one with the problem. Even the IMF stars salary is public knowledge if one cares to find out.
I’d say most members don’t care. They don’t think about it. And if they were asked, they probably assume the trustees have it covered.
David Griffin, tell a few people the present situation and see what response you get. I think you will be surprised.
Right. If we went to our members and told them we thought there were a lot of problems in the sbc, they would then be concerned or disappointed. But most people in Baptist churches dont care. I’d be surprised if most people in my church could name an entity head or the current sbc president. They care about the stuff going on in the local church, and are encouraged when they see the videos about the ministry work going on at IBM and namb. But to say a lot of people are concerned or care about any of this in the 44,000 churches does not seem likely.
This is something a small number of people care about. I can understand wanting to know what your local pastor makes. In this case, this info just seems like it is going to lead to people angry with what the entity heads make. Whatever it is, people will think it is too much. It is interesting that you dont want to know what anyone else in the organization makes. In that case, when you say you want transparency, it is a very dim transparency.
Ok. We know what that demand is….”tell us the details of the execs pay” what we have not heard is the why.
Why do you want to know?
Please Don’t give me the already heard “transparency” (while its good sounding its actually a rather vague answer) – i’d like to hear if there are any other reasons why this demand is being made.
I’ve asked this before ( and still have not received an answer) but why are there no articles written or complaints made to pastors to demand the salary details of ALL entity employees? Why does no one seem to care for the transparency of janitor pay for lawn care pay or administrative assistant pay? Why just execs? For you guys making arguments that it should be like a church where the pastor salary is open and everyone can see… well, Every church I’ve ever been a part of that paid employees – the janitor salary, the secretary salary, the people who cut the grass salary/contract, etc. are public just like the of the pastors – yet no one cares – only execs…..i want to know why.
That’s it. Make the folks who pay the bills justify why they have the nerve to ask for transparency.
to turn around a phrase in jest….
I understand it is hard to justify wanting to know information that is none of your responsibility or business to know. 😉
It is also duly noted that, again, you did not answer any of the questions….C’mon William – why are you not demanding to know what Joe Q Janitor makes?
Enquiring Minds want to know…
I don’t come from a church where we see every dollar and second guess every decision. I have little confidence that salary disclosure in the SBC will be a help to the church or her mission.
Yeah…I’m not interested in janitor pay. Irrelevant. But no trustee will make the argument that you are making.
I’ll say again: it should be explained to the folks who pay the bills why CEO pay is kept secret from them and the folks who pay the bills never have to apologize for asking questions. They works for us. We don’t work for them.
William, I really don’t think anything that is said will encourage transparency outside a complete erosion of funds and trust. As long as churches blindly send money it will be spent in a way of their choosing. Call me skeptical but for Tarheel Dave to say that CEO’s of these entities have trustees to hold them accountable is quite laughable. The trustees in most of the Baptist schools, seminaries, and organizations are either in the dark or complicit by their silence of actions going on in Christian institutions. I think the last two years alone are examples enough. Christians, not the world should be setting the standard for transparency, integrity, and honesty. If they don’t, then it gives those who question or don’t believe reason to not trust these organizations.
“They works for us. We don’t work for them.”
1. No is saying we work for them. Looks like a false argument to me there, buddy.
2. Actually they do not work for me and you.
Janitor pay is certainly irrelevant If the employees of the entities “work for you” and you “pay the bills”… I’m asking again why is it important for you to solely to know what the executives make…. But its somehow totally insignificant and “Irrelevant“ what other people “you pay” Make?
*janitor pay is certainly *not* irrelevant…..
Tarheel- I’m a state university employee. The newspaper in my city prints the salaries of every university employee every year. So, as a guy who has had his salary exposed his entire life, what is the problem with telling us what these people make?
Mark,
As a pastor – mine is public too (to those whom I am accountable ) – my wife was a public school teacher for many years and, as you described, her’s was too.
I did not say – have never said – it’d be *wrong* to reveal the details of compensation with regard to every entity employee – i am NOT opposed to that in and if itself…..
Honestly though, don’t think its “good” to exhibit *selective* demands of “transparency” (only execs) and demand info that under our system is not something you Or I have a “right” to be privy to.
I am simply saying – its not our system to do what you are demanding. If an agenda is fowarded and the majority (or other mandated amount) of assembled messengers at a convention wish to scrap our trustee system and develop something else – then make the argument and lets do it….but until then. We have a system – and this demand is not part if it (unless the trustees opt to do so – which is their right)
Of course I am putting aside and ignoring the Shaming of those who don’t want to necessarily scrap our trustee system as “opponents of transparency”.
Why would it be a problem to disclose the whole salary structure of an entity?
Having a trustee board made up of individuals put there by the strong suggestion or recommendation of the agency head is not out of the realm of possibility. It happened at Southwestern and at Southeastern.. There’s nothing to prevent a relative of an entity head or employee from serving on a trustee board either. “Trust the trustees” hasn’t always worked out.
Yeah, i commented earlier that theres tweaks (like the ones you mentioned) that would be helpful.
One day, and I don’t think that day is here but I have no way of knowing, one of the SBC entities will be led by a CEO whose compensation (salary + housing + retirement + perks like auto) will be over a million dollar a year. I don’t think we are far from that but, again, I don’t have anything but what others have speculated about.
Trust the Lord. Tell Southern Baptists.
…and, this is my opinion, not that of the other outstanding brethren here at SBCV. I said that in the OP and Dave Miller quickly said the same thing. One day, this side of heaven, he will be forced by circumstances come over to my view of this.
The CP is in a long time funk. Southern Baptists have always figured out a way to make things worse rather than better. In five years, I predict, there will be new train wrecks and the average CP will be hovering around 4 percent.
…but maybe Ronnie Floyd has a plan.
You are saying we always find ways to make things worse while at the same time declaring that we need to know what entity heads make which could lead to another controversy.
Yes a new painted bus and Nationwide listening session will fix all the problems. It won’t take five years for what you said William a just one more good scandal in the SBC and people finally say enough is enough.
I dont think a bus or a listening session will fix our problems. I also don’t think knowing what our entity heads are paid will fix our problems. We need widespread repentance in my church and yours and everyone else’s. Widespread prayer, evangelism, and living out the Christian life before our neighbors in love.
This issue is a non issue in comparison to the things that really matter. I’m not saying we shouldn’t discuss it. Just that it doesn’t rank in comparison to our real problems.
As for leaving the sbc, fine. But that also wont fix the issues that sbc churches are struggling with. Changing your sign and where you send your missions money wont change the heart issues at the root of the problems of the people in our churches.
This is what I am considering and praying about. I am very conflicted about what to do. Right now , my thought is to leave my church family and go to a non SBC church. I am being very slow and deliberate in my decision making as this is a big issue to me. I have absolutely no problems or issues with my home church. Pastor and staff are good , hard working people whose pay is in range within a middle income family in our county. The Christian School teachers in our school are underpaid and their benefits meager. I have lobbied long and hard to increase their benefit package but that is a side issue.
I have talked to my Pastor about this issue and have remained silent to my church family with my concerns on this issue. I know the finances of my local church as I serve on the finance committee and have been on the personnel committee when not on the finance committee.
I have talked to my wife who really was unaware about the lack of transparency and now feels as I do, that it is troubling and unnecessary.
If my heart and mind still lead me to feel so conflicted and troubled personally with this issue mainly I will leave my church as we do strongly support the CP in our church.
I know that my wife and I will be asked by many why we are leaving. This is prime reason I have remained , I do not want to be disruptive and spread any discontent. However, the truth is the truth. I will tell those who ask us why we are leaving the truth. The issue about transparency and the unresponsive nature of the SBC to the general membership is my reason. I will not belabor the issue or urge others on what to do. I am just going to tell the reason I am leaving. I will leave in good standing and will leave , if I do, with good memories, love and joy that the church has provided us, you all know , a church family. I do not take this lightly.
I have read no compelling reason stated here or in my research why the lack of transparency but a gulf is developing between the leadership and the members.
It seems the majority here agree about the disclosure of pay issue. As someone stated , it will take years though the normal SBC procedures, unless the leadership understands the depth of this issue.
I agree with William Thorton about when the salary/total compensation of a entity head is disclosed it will have a profound bad effect . Why , go though this , when the solution is so simple?
David Griffin/Tar heel, David, of course I agree with you that the individual priority of living the good Christian life, witnessing and spreading the Gospel is the main focus . However as you say , it does not have to be accomplished in a SBC affiliated church, we agree on that.
However, this is not a non – issue as I have stated above. I do not know the “root” issues that are the problem you attribute to the SBC churches. My home church are faithful and attempt to live a good Christian life and certainly are loyal to the mission program of the SBC. Are we aging and is there a lack of new (young) members, yes there is but it is not due to lack of effort or concern by the pew sitters. They are certainly not racist , haters or non concerned about helping others.
David, I believe I am the canary in the coal mine. I really am just about at the end of my rope trying to remain when I feel a total disconnect between my local church, its members and the national SBC leadership.
The lack of transparency is as many say , a hill to die on , for me personally.
I will be just as faithful and useful at a new church as I have been, if God allows me to be. To sum it up , the issues the SBC is struggling with , many of the issues are from the top bottom not from the members to the top.
The entity heads can come forward and request their compensation be made available to the membership. Why not? Is the upcoming turmoil, that is surely coming , worth it to the leadership over non transparency.
Losing faith in the SBC leadership is not losing faith. I can be in a hut with 5 people or no one and still know Jesus Christ is my personal savior and come for all. So whatever I decide to do, I know God was, is and will always be in control. I will continue to try to work like everything is up to me and pray knowing everything is up to God. I learned that wonderful thought years ago in a SBC church, that now would be called old timey.
I do appreciate the dialogue from all year as this has been a pressing matter for me.
Steve, I don’t see any of this as a deal breaker for my being SBC. The two mission boards do great work. The CP is imperfect but there’s no substitute. We’ve never had better leadership than we have now. Sure, there are areas I’d like to see change and griping is an SBC birthright.
I’m here for the duration.
William Thornton, I would expect no less from you and many others on this site. I absolutely understand and thank the good Lord there are so many good and faithful preachers.
I am being as honest and open as I can Thank you for your thoughts and comments. Surely if good , concerned people highlight these issues to the SBC , they will be addressed. That is my hope and prayer. Like I said I am struggling, with my wife definitely on the stay where we are side. Thanks to all.
Amen and Amen, William.
David Griffin, I obviously was not serious about a painted bus and listening sessions. This has been done over and over during my years in the SBC to absolutely no positive affect, but Baptist like to do something that somehow justify they are trying something. Sadly, the programs, buses, new evangelism emphasis all skirt around the true need, repentance and transparency. This won’t happen because light shines in the darkness and who wants to admit pride, lust, control, anger, and the like. I say this as I humbly tried to get national executives to address issues that now have become stumbling blocks but then there was only fear of losing CP dollars. Let’s be honest, the God of SBC is money and position.
I am a layman and have been an active member of SBC churches for 60 plus years and have never heard anyone discuss or ask questions about this subject. It seems like the only value of this would be to promote jealousy.
One example of this is in this discussion. Someone has already decided without any facts or information that would be needed to define competitive compensation of what is or is not appropriate compensation. This is a good example of the negative outcomes that disclosure could bring.
Trustees are the closest to the situation and have the responsibility to make decisions based on information that they obtain.
I do agree that governing boards need to be restructured since they are far too large to have effective governance.
Ron, As I have certainly been active on this topic stating my views and concerns I guess I have done a poor job of explaining my position and why I have the opinion I do on this lack of transparency. My opinion on this has absolutely nothing to do with jealousy or promoting it. If the trustees under the present system believe that an entity head should receive a benefit package of ? whatever amount why is it not available to the SBC members. I cannot under the present system base any opinion on fact or information as I have none.
The trustees can set the pay scale and authorize it but make it transparent.
Though my years seeing the dedicated and in many cases sacrificial giving to the church by a core of faithful SBC members in my church I think it is only the right thing to do to share how and where their money is going.
A good example currently is Franklin Graham whose salary from S. Purse is $622,000 annually plus benefits if the public , published reports are correct. I am not jealous, I am not outraged, I am not alarmed, I can now support our shoebox effort knowing what Franklin Graham makes . It seems to be fine with certainly the majority of his supporters. God Bless him and he is entitled to whatever his organization oversight board thinks is required. The information is out there for those who might be concerned to have full disclosure. What if Franklin Graham was getting the bucks that the top mega prosperity preachers are getting, I would be concerned about supporting his work. Not out of jealousy or envy but out of common sense. If the SBC President went out and bought a jet like a noted Pastor did , should the SBC members be aware of it?
I guess I have a real blind spot where I can see no value in not being transparent. Gripping is one thing and certainly a part of every church body but I have real concerns that in this area the non transparency is just not in the financial area alone. The tone is the leadership is above accountability to the members. The present system protects that .
Thanks for the insight.
Our leaders are accountable within the Trustee system that our members have set up through their elected messengers.
“The tone is the leadership is above accountability to the members. The present system protects that ”
You might find more agreement, even among us who think that this information is best kept with those who have responsibility to do it, If that were the crux of your argument.
Make recommendations to better the system (or scrap it and start over) – Presently though what you’re doing is demanding something that our system does not mandate or allow for.
Myself, Ron and others on “the same side” (we are not enemies!) in this discussion have suggested in this thread several tweaks need to be made to make out trustee system better.
Years ago we were in a meeting with the treasurer at the IMB. He said that he received calls every week from folks demanding to know what we got paid as career missionaries. He told us that he figured that since half the people responded to him with, ‘that’s way too much’ and half with ‘how can they live on that little’ that the pay package was about right. I’m afraid that that will be the reaction no matter what the numbers are so I suspect that that is why the current powers that be don’t see any value in advertising the salaries.